Latest / Frankly eCommerce / Why Now is the Best Time to Launch a Brand with Chris Lang

Transcript

Why Now is the Best Time to Launch a Brand with Chris Lang · Frankly eCommerce

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] You're listening to the Frankly Ecommerce Show, candid conversations about business with host Patrick Scott Pattberg.
• 0:08
  Frankly Ecommerce is here to have a conversation about what's working in ecommerce, what's different, how it changes, and I've organized the best people I know to help me talk about this.
• 0:19
  My experience of ecommerce started in 1996 for a roadside stand with a mail order catalog trying to figure out how to make an ecommerce checkout work.
• 0:30
  And while a million things have changed in that time, some things have not changed at all, and foremost among them is having a story, a brand that people can connect to.
• 0:40
  In my experience 30 years ago, it was a family business that had been around since 1935, and they had a long and rich history, and people beloved their products. And that, I suppose, has not changed at all.
• 0:52
  So to help me think about storytelling, why you wanna create a brand, and why now is one of the best times in history to do so, I've invited Chris Lane. Chris, welcome to Frankly Ecommerce.
• 1:05
  Thank you for having me, Patrick. I appreciate it.
• 1:07
  We've known each other for some couple years, but we spoke earlier this summer at an event in Austin put together by Jimmy Kim and the Commerce Roundtable folks, and at that time you said, "Now is the best time to st- to launch a brand," and you spoke about Shopify being the platform of choice.
• 1:26
  I was really curious to learn more about what you meant by that, and so I want to introduce you. I want to tell about some of the things you've already done. But let's begin with this particular time in history and now.
• 1:37
  Why are you optimistic? What's special about happening in business now? Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting because the tools are available to everyone. There's...
• 1:48
  You know, um, if you want the knowledge, y- you can have the knowledge at your fingertips.
• 1:53
  I love that you can, you know, scrub the best podcasts in the world and transcribe their [laughs] you know, uh, transcripts and, you know, enter into your AI of choice. And it's just for people who, um,
• 2:10
  you know, really are self-motivated, you know, sort of like, um, who like to learn fast, um, instead of a traditional setting. I, I think it's just...
• 2:21
  It's, it's a really fun time, especially now that there are opportunities for...
• 2:27
  You know, used to be you had to be a developer to, you know, uh, connect, you know, different softwares and systems, and now it just seems like every day the, the gates are being opened between Shopify and, you know, Omnisend and Manus and, you know, Facebook and you know.
• 2:42
  So it, it's a really great time to, like, build. Um, and so that's what gets me excited. I... And as someone who, who's built for the last 15 years, you know, a lot of different types of companies, I,
• 2:57
  I'm actually wondering as I start on my next Shopify store what hires I actually need to make.
• 3:05
  Like, I've never had to have that conversation before, and I'm really generally curious, you know, what my staff is gonna look like, um, in this next venture. Yeah.
• 3:18
  I think back in my experience in the early 2000s, about 2000, 2003, I had the idea to create an e-commerce software platform that had all sort of the features of, of MailChimp and WordPress and Shopify and things that hadn't quite congealed into some sort of service you can just flip a switch and provision.
• 3:37
  And man, we spent tremendous time and effort. We had our servers at Rackspace and trying to figure out how all this stuff worked, the expense, the kind of... You know, the momentum it took to build something substantive.
• 3:49
  And, and so now you can spin up a new brand with all the things that you're talking about being so accessible to you.
• 3:57
  And I guess I wonder that in some ways lowers the barrier to begin, but doesn't it also increase the competition? And, in what way do you feel excited, like this is...
• 4:07
  I guess, well, then what do you need to distinguish yourself? It's not the effort, the mountain to climb as far as the technology and the platform.
• 4:14
  So then what is it that needs to happen for a brand to be launched today? I would say there's, there's, there's definitely, like, two avenues that we could explore. Obviously, there's, there's multiple.
• 4:26
  One, let's just talk about something that you're very passionate about solving in the world. Entrepreneurs love to solve problems. They see a need, and they love to do that, right? So for example, like, say, you know,
• 4:38
  uh, you're really passionate about beef tallow, right?
• 4:41
  And that's something that you could bring to market, and obviously that's very popular right now, which is why I chose it or, like, creatine gummies [laughs], you know, all the things.
• 4:48
  But, like, you know, to your point, the barrier to entry is, is definitely a lot less barriers because of, of the technology, and so I think it's good. However, I would caution any first-time entrepreneur,
• 5:06
  you're probably not gonna have success on that first store. It's probably gonna be your fourth or fifth store [laughs]. You know? But that's the fun part o- of it.
• 5:15
  Uh, I think it allows you to see if this is something you really enjoy, if it's something you really like doing, you know, and, a- a- and the way that you like building.
• 5:22
  And so, um, I'm like you in a sense that I still have a very traditional farm to online model where, you know, we're working with the farmers that grow hash chili and, you know, we're telling the story from the farm and from the kitchen and, you know, from the shipping department to their home.
• 5:39
  And so, like, there's still traditional aspects of that for sure. And I will...
• 5:44
  A- and the second part of that avenue is, like, I think if you're someone who has deep experience, and I'm talking about, you know, 10, 15, 20 years of, like, understanding and nuances and, you know, just deep subject matter knowledge Oh man, I mean this technology can superpower you.
• 6:04
  It, it finally kind of allows you to, to build the things that you, you wish you could build in the past. So it's, it's pretty fun So what I'm hearing is that the,
• 6:15
  the domain expertise, the product passion, the experience that people can bring in with respect to a, a product or an industry
• 6:26
  now they're not hamstrung or burdened by the kind of technical challenges or even expense that would have required a bigger upfront capital allocation- Mm...
• 6:35
  a bigger coordination of multiple agencies and teams but that then just opens up the possibility of where do people find a product that the market wants?
• 6:45
  And how would they know if the market wants it and will they kinda follow that scent- Hmm... of the profitable business? Yeah.
• 6:51
  You know, I've, I've always s- I've always looked at, you know, personal problems that I've experienced as sort of my...
• 7:01
  You know when I've had the most success, you know in 2016 I started printing T-shirts in my garage and with every purchase we donate lunches back to the Las Cruces public schools.
• 7:10
  And then in 2020 we paid off the debt for all the families on the reduced lunch program.
• 7:14
  And then in '21 the state of New Mexico, you know through this initiative that we were doing passed where, a legislation where no kids or their families would have to pay for their lunches you know in the state of New Mexico which is one of poorest in America.
• 7:28
  And so like, you know, that was just a very personal, you know passion that I had because again I was that kid. I grew up in extreme poverty.
• 7:38
  I understood what it was like to go through the lunch line and the lunch lady hand you a $40 bill and you're like "Yo I'm rolling pennies for gas money lady. I don't know how we're gonna pay this." [laughs] You know?
• 7:46
  So like you know I think that was born out of a passion.
• 7:49
  Uh I think you know even like with Fresh Chile, you know it was a very much a, a traditional business where you could only get Hatch green chile you know in the month of like late July August September at the grocery store.
• 8:03
  And so there was opportunity to, to give Hatch green chile to America year round. And, and so again that was, that was definitely something just of s- personal.
• 8:12
  Even this next venture that I'm going in i- i- it's, it's something that affects me personally.
• 8:18
  And you know as I look across the market I don't have a lot of trust in these other companies that are selling maybe competitive products because again I don't know the story.
• 8:28
  I don't know the origin you know and, and so that's something that I'm like really excited to champion you know not just for myself but also for the consumer. [smacks lips] Yeah.
• 8:39
  And in that project you are able to feel enough spaciousness from the Fresh Chile brand to have that abi- ability to do that 'cause I think one of the things you've spoken to is you had many businesses.
• 8:52
  Like a winery, like pretty diverse and eclectic. Yeah. So as an entrepreneur you're trying to make choices about the sorta preciousness of your time. Yeah.
• 9:01
  What gave you the confidence that says okay now I have enough space- Hm.... to do this new idea? Yeah. So I about two and half years ago I had 10 different businesses.
• 9:10
  You know restaurant, winery coffee shop apparel store like you know all these different ventures magazine. Like i- and it was one of those things that like I wasn't operating in my zone of genius.
• 9:21
  And it was because I just had a scarce mentality. I just said yes to every opportunity came my way. But as I've been able to really like dive in and focus on, on my strengths and weaknesses like I love marketing.
• 9:32
  I love Shopify. I love eCommerce. I love like digital growth than- You know and so it's, it's, it's a lotta fun for me. And, and now it looks like play to everyone else.
• 9:44
  It looks like I'm having a lot of fun and I, and I am having a lot of fun.
• 9:47
  And I'm able to help solve those problems so like the things that I'm taking on now um, even like with my current partner it is one of those things that it has to be complementary in the Shopify ecosystem.
• 10:00
  So that gives me a lot of confidence that I'm not as you know distracted as I was in the past. But also knowing that like my current Shopify you know business is turning a profit does cashflow-
• 10:14
  Hey quick timeout to talk about something that I know you want to figure out between now and Black Friday. I wanna figure it out between now and Black Friday.
• 10:23
  I know Gabrielle who I work with at eBusiness PROS has the same sense and that is personalization in practical terms. How do we get to a one-to-one experience with the shoppers we're trying to communicate with?
• 10:36
  And so I've asked Thai to sponsor this season of Frankly Ecommerce and they framed it as The One To One Era: Find The Right Customer At The Right Time. So what is their thesis? Their product evolving.
• 10:50
  They gone from identifying anonymous visitors to starting to predict things. And here's what they told me
• 10:57
  brands that treat marketing as a personalization problem were the ones that win in this time and that's something that I want to better understand.
• 11:05
  So invite you to join us in Frankly Ecommerce program and events we'll be hosting here in Austin Texas to learn with us as Thai offers their perspective and we continue to make this better experience for all of our customers.
• 11:19
  So welcome Thai to Frankly Ecommerce. Now back to the show. I'll g- I'll b- I'll be straightforward with you. I mean people look at Shopify and like oh this like you know they think of it like sh- drop shipping.
• 11:31
  I'm w- working like 10 20 hours a week and you know that can be the case but only after you built it probably for like five six seven years. And I think that's also timing the game.
• 11:42
  I now I just have more time on my hands to go and build something else because again I was roasting the chili cooking the chili shipping the chili [laughs] like my office was like a workbench in a warehouse like for definitely a few years you know?
• 11:57
  So like I lived through that. Um, that was really th- you know the HR part of running the business all the things. So, um, I just li- Doesn't that experience though give you a, a richness?
• 12:08
  I mean it's not like you have to,- Yeah..... reach too far to get a picture to share with your customer about what roasted chilies - Mm......
• 12:15
  look like right?- Yeah It's y- you're in it and you can make that accessible to people who wanna follow along Yeah. And even in this next venture, like, I mean, I, I'm not gonna give it away here.
• 12:25
  Um, I mean, I would love to get a 18-month head start before anyone really figures it out, but [laughs] you know, like, in case they don't, the r- it's still the same model.
• 12:35
  I'm going to the source, I'm telling the story, I'm educating our consumers about it. You know? Like, I'm really excited because i- it's the story... It's the storytelling aspect that I, I get most excited about.
• 12:46
  That connection with the customer, like you said. Yeah. Well, you mentioned having a partner. Maybe you can tell us about what that is. But also just as you're at this early phase, what does your team start to look like?
• 12:57
  Because you said you're not even sure what that team looks like in the context of all the provisioning and the AI and whatever's happening. So tell us about the core team- Yeah... as, as big or small as it may be. Yeah.
• 13:08
  So, um, Ezra Firestone and I are, are, you know, partners in this next venture. And so definitely, like, Ezra brings a lot of strategy and, like, 20 years of e-commerce to the space, right?
• 13:23
  And so, um, you know, him and I have that partnership, and where I'm gonna be the CEO, where I'm in charge of executing, you know, the strategy and, and, and, you know, all the,
• 13:39
  um, all the details that need to happen. And then we have a, we have a brand director who, y- helps us with the, the formula. I'm giving away a l- a little bit. Helps us with [chuckles] like, the product development.
• 13:52
  Um, and, and so which is really important, uh, obviously, you know, doing, um, uh... I forget the word, what it is. But, um, consumer tests. You know, those kind of things. Like bringing products to market.
• 14:05
  And so, um, that's kinda what our initial team looks like. And I think what's interesting is, um, now there's so many specialized agencies, you know, customer service agencies, you know, email agencies.
• 14:20
  You have 3PL for shipping. Um, you can find a manufacturer who can manufacture the product.
• 14:26
  And again, we've spent, like as I said publicly with Fresh Chili, we have spent millions upon millions of dollars bootstrapping our own manufacturing, our own facility.
• 14:37
  I don't know if I have the stomach for that again, [laughs] you know? Um, and so it, it, it's one of those things where, like finding the manufacturer.
• 14:46
  So it is very interesting where you can definitely look and see, like, this is interesting. It, it could almost be ran by a team of three to five people, um,
• 14:58
  you know, in a s- in a Slack channel, just, just working with specialized... So again, obviously there's, when you add up the agencies and 3 PLs and manufacturers, there's more people working on it.
• 15:07
  But, you know, from a payroll standpoint, it f- it looks really lean and it looks really profitable. Well, I think what I'm hearing is that the team you did describe is product centric. Right.
• 15:20
  That's the part that you have to be owning, you're imagining, you're testing, you're having to have that product credibility, and then you assemble the, the helpers to bring it to market. Exactly. Exactly.
• 15:33
  And again too, like, obviously, you know, Ezra has a lot of resources, I have a lot of resources. Um, and you know, we know the best of the best in the space. And, and, and I think that, that definitely helps.
• 15:46
  You know, and I, I think my advice to anyone who's st- starting off, just like get connected, get networked, go to these events. Like, they're really valuable. Develop, you know, friendships. And, you know, don't...
• 15:58
  You know, if someone's selling information or someone has an agency, like, I don't know why on X that's somehow se- seen as a negative, um, you know, thing, but it's a good thing. Uh, you will level up.
• 16:11
  You can, you can erase years of mistakes by, you know, finding the right people and th- finding the right guides. And I think just, you know, understanding what that looks like, um, you know, is important.
• 16:23
  But it, it is one of those things, like having those resources is... You know, from people who've been in this game. That's the cool thing about it. Just like you said, you've been in this since '96, right?
• 16:32
  Like, we're starting to kind of mature a little bit, you know? [laughs] And so, um, it, it's, it's fun to see, uh, e-commerce grow up a little bit. [laughs] Yeah. Well let's talk a little about some events, but...
• 16:44
  And also sort of how you started to assemble some of the pieces. Mm-hmm. I wanna share my screen for a minute and- Yeah... and speak about this.
• 16:51
  I also want take the opportunity to thank Ty, because they're helping get the Frankly Commerce Project off the ground- Mm-hmm...
• 16:58
  and helping us understand how the data we have about our, our visitors and our shoppers can be applied.
• 17:04
  There's a great opportunity here to now think about what the data can do when you have the right tools and platform to go with you. So Ty is helping us think about that. Now, we met
• 17:15
  most recently at this retention roadshow that Jimmy Kim put together, and you came to Austin，and we talked about that。There is some great replays of some of the talks that are there, and you can find them on the YouTube channel.
• 17:29
  There is one I just wanna call out while I have this opportunity that I think was, um, not in Austin- Mm-hmm.... but Jimmy spoke to it. And this is coming from the, uh,
• 17:39
  Devin at the head, you know, of, of Sweatpants Agency. She spoke down in Miami.
• 17:44
  But if anyone's able to follow this and find this replay, this kind hits close to my heart because eBusiness PROS, the agency that I run, focuses on the email and retention SMS channel.
• 17:55
  When you see this slide, Chris, and I don't know if... I mean, you were there, I guess, in Austin, so maybe you heard him speak to this.
• 18:01
  He described, and what Devon describes, is in her big data study of all kinds of results from email, the higher unsubscribed campaigns earned 5.2 more revenue per recipient of email message sent.
• 18:17
  When you hear that, what does that resonate in your mind? What do you think? Wha- what... Does this ring true for you, and why? Yeah, I mean that- that- that's an interesting...
• 18:27
  I mean, I, I would have to have some more inputs ar- around that data. My gut tells me, um, [clicks tongue] um, that you definitely opening up your segments.
• 18:38
  Um, you want a lot of people know about whatever promotion or, or sale that you have going on. Um, but I, I think that's really interesting and I, I'll t- this is a, this...
• 18:48
  I will say this to a point that I can actually say th-that I live too, is like, is I'm, I'm okay with unsubscribes. My partner's like, "Oh, we lost unsubscribers."
• 18:58
  And I'm like, "Dude, we have a million person list," like, we're gonna lose people.
• 19:03
  And again too, I think it, what it comes down to is like the customer journey of when they sign up and when they drop off and when they have too much product or, you know, whatever may be for your brand.
• 19:12
  Um, but yeah, I'd love to hear your insight into this because you definitely have a lot more experience than I do. Well, I think what comes to my mind is that you have to stand for something. Mm-hmm.
• 19:23
  And when you are making a message that arrives in someone's inbox- Mm-hmm... they have to feel it, they have to believe it. Hmm. And the sort of bland or just killing them with volume right? Right. Right.
• 19:37
  Is a, is a way to have eyes glaze over. So I think why- Mm... that's another thing about what you're able to do and the stories you tell, the photos that you're able to craft. Mm-hmm.
• 19:46
  Uh, there's something that people come to believe in and I, I do think that what's interesting about Fresh Chile, not knowing what the new thing will be, but Fresh Chile has this cult-like following for basically salsa.
• 19:58
  Great. Yeah. And w-and why is that? And how did you, how did you make it so? Yeah. Um, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Um, I'm only pausing because of kinda what you, wh-when you say stand for something.
• 20:12
  I definitely, there's definitely been campaigns, and I'm not talking about from Fresh Chile, where a company has come out and s-in stand of something, and you're right, like, people unsubscribe because it makes them feel a certain way, but then they also have their biggest day.
• 20:27
  I think standing for something, um, what it does is maybe centers your email, y-you know, lists in the direction of your targeted purchasers.
• 20:39
  Um, I have an example of that, you know, um, in my head I'll, we'll talk about offline. Uh- What does, what does Fresh Chile stand for? I mean, Fresh Chile stands for, you know,
• 20:51
  it, it's one of those things like I like to take the jar, I like to take the jar, and I like to educate people about the label, right?
• 20:58
  So like I created this viral product a few years ago called 575, and it's basically our, like our logo, um, but with 575 which is the true area go-area code for Hatch, New Mexico.
• 21:12
  So the biggest hatch chile brand in, in, you know, uh, America from a retail like supermarket standpoint is called 505, n-and they're actually headquartered outta Denver.
• 21:23
  [laughs] And so like it, it's funny and I think it's owned by, you know, Black Rock or, you know, some, some firm.
• 21:29
  But like, so 575 became this rallying call of our community, and if you actually look at to the left of this, there's this Hatch Chile certification on it that really tells like n-if you see Hatch and you don't see the certification, it means it's not certified.
• 21:43
  It's like saying this wine is not from Napa, right? Like that's how important it is, is that this is certified by the farmers, it's certified by the community.
• 21:52
  And so like, you know, we definitely try to protect that like Hatch, New Mexico, it is the chili capital of the world, but we really try to protect that messaging.
• 22:01
  It's so important because there's so many competitors out there who are using the Hatch name to make a dollar, but it's not really going back into the community. I live in this community.
• 22:11
  My partner has been a part of this community for generations. My wife's family's been part of this com-community for generations, right?
• 22:16
  Like it's one of those things like we're real people, real New Mexicans who are creating this product that, you know, it's not being mass produced. It's small batch.
• 22:25
  You might be frustrated we sell out, but we're not some big corporation that's just, you know, here, here to make, you know, um, you know investors happy. You know?
• 22:34
  We're, we're, we're definitely trying to, you know provide the highest quality Hatch green chile products i-in America and we do that and we do it in a very, um, real way where we do live videos from the farms.
• 22:46
  We do, um, you know, live videos from the kitchen. Like people see that we're the real deal. They also know us, you know, in New Mexico and so, you know, that combination of just like, hey, this is the real deal.
• 22:58
  Like people really love to know that and I think, you know from a food standpoint people really wanna know where their food is coming from now. And they're very im-...
• 23:06
  You know, I think there's been a whole avocado oil gate- [laughs] Yes.... you know thing that's happened in this last week with all these brands getting called out.
• 23:14
  We actually use an avocado oil in a couple of our taco sauces and again I'l-I'm h-having to call up the manufacturer and be like, "Hey, is this really avocado oil you're selling, selling us?"
• 23:24
  Because you know we believe it's avocado oil 'cause that's what we're buying, right? So now like it's... But it's really important to us because like the chile that we put in our salsa is from Hatch.
• 23:34
  The onions that go into our salsas are from Hatch, right? The tomatoes, where we procure them from.
• 23:38
  You know, it's like it's just very important that we, um [keyboard clicks] tell that story of our people and our farmers and, and it, I think it's about...
• 23:49
  Chili is just a very distinct taste different, a very distinct flavor, very distinct smell. And so I, I think we have tried really hard to bottle that experience for people a- as, as much as we can.
• 24:07
  And you know when they open up a jar and they smell it and it takes them back, it's like that scene in Ratatouille where you know he takes a bite and he's taken back to his mom's cooking.
• 24:17
  Like that's kind of the experience that we're going for. I hear you saying that a product also has to have a place The sense of place anchored in the world. Mm-hmm.
• 24:28
  And you speak to Hatch, New Mexico and w-, you know, someone listening to this is thinking, "Well, where do I live? What's the story of what my place?" And- Hmm...what are the products that come from where I am?
• 24:38
  I mean,- Yeah...I, I, before I moved to Austin, I was in Montana, and I spent many years with a brand called Red Oxx, and they're based in Billings, Montana, and out of, you know, out of the east side of the city, they cobbled together this e-commerce business starting 20 plus years ago that was based and made in Montana with that part of the character that comes through it.
• 24:58
  Hm. But now, now I'm in Texas, a lot of products can sort of lean into that Texas character. What does it mean- Mm...to be made in Texas? Mm. And then even how many more CPG brands are born in Austin? Right.
• 25:10
  And you can get a sense of the kind of, um, aesthetic or lifestyle choice or ingredient choices that someone in Austin would value- Mm....and then spin out t- to the broader, the wider market in the country.
• 25:21
  Does that sound true to you, that place being a key anchor? Yeah. I mean, going back to my first Shopify store a decade ago, it, it was a problem in my community, in my city. You know?
• 25:32
  Families defaulting on paying their lunches, you know, for their kids, you know? I mean, to me, like what I love about entrepreneurship is you're able to see a problem and, and then provide a solution for it.
• 25:43
  And so, um, I think it, it's a part of it. It's not the end all, for sure. I mean, we definitely see a, you know, a lot of people spinning up different products that don't have to, you know, be about a place, but
• 25:57
  each of them has a story, you know? If it's a pet brand, it's something that your, you and your German shepherd went through, you know?
• 26:04
  You know, whatever it may be, uh, there's always gonna be that story connected, so, um, you know, I wou- I would say it's w- what ties it to the story. Yeah.
• 26:15
  Something that I, I, I f- I suspect is true about you, but I wanna ask you about it, is I'm gonna use the word a marketing stunt. Mm-hmm.
• 26:26
  What I mean by that is something clever- Mm...something that's maybe a one time thing, and you dream it up, and you launch it, and maybe it causes a big splash of attention, and maybe you have an example of some of that you've done.
• 26:37
  Yeah. Yeah. But my guess is that you have some capacity around this idea of a marketing stunt or a branding, um, moment. Mm-hmm. But
• 26:47
  I was having a conversation the other day with a brand founder who said, "I can do that, but I can't operationalize the follow through." Yeah.
• 26:57
  "I don't know how to build the marketing systems that need to build and support that sales channel afterwards." And, and s-... That's why we're having [chuckles] the conversation. Yep.
• 27:06
  But, but in your case, I suspect that you can do both. Mmm. It seems like you could do both, and that's partly what I've seen in your previous talks, is the operational automation systemization. Mm-hmm.
• 27:17
  Um, tell us about if that's true for you and, and how those two need to go together. Yeah. I mean, i- it's very true, and I mean, it's, it's 15 years in the making. And what's interesting about it is,
• 27:30
  um, I've always been an idea person. I've never lacked ideas or, you know, kind of, you know, messaging.
• 27:37
  Um, and, you know, when I was able-- Like my, I think my first three ventures, I was able to execute them pretty well, you know, just because like, again, I had all the time, I had all the energy, and I could do that.
• 27:50
  But when I had 10 different businesses, I could not execute them all very well, and that really forced me to systemize and, and like, you know, create like, like these deep SOPs.
• 28:03
  Like we, we have this Figma board that we're just continually feeding and, and, and growing because what I notice is like, you know... Again,
• 28:13
  like you can be a great chef, but if no one knows about your cooking, it doesn't matter, right?
• 28:17
  Like someone down the street who probably has a subpar product but has better marketing is gonna be m- [laughs] you know, more successful than you. And so I think marketing is, is, is a huge, you know, um, um...
• 28:33
  It, it's one of those things. It's, it's definitely valued. I think it's becoming more and more valued than ever before, which is really nice to see, you know? Uh, because as...
• 28:41
  It was always, you know, from a traditional standpoint, as you can allude to, like it was always the first thing to get cut, right? [chuckles] Like marketing.
• 28:49
  Um, now it's, it's kind of like, it's like the heartbeat of e-commerce, and so like, you know, it's, it's one of the things that people really try to build around first.
• 28:57
  Um, but what I noticed is that, um, even e- even today in e-commerce, um, most founders are pretty much living day to day. Um, and it's very hard to systemize it.
• 29:12
  And so what I did is I took basically like what are four pillars to build around? Now, y- you can argue if there's more, okay?
• 29:19
  But let's just, you know, for sake of sanity, um, you know, in e-commerce, and one is your Shopify store. You know? Um, next would be like organic social, which I would say 90% don't do.
• 29:33
  And then you have like meta ads and, you know, Google Ads, and then you have email and SMS. Like, and so I really look at the customer journey as kinda those four touch points. Um, you could argue there's more.
• 29:44
  Uh, uh, am not here to do that, but for the s- sake of like building systems and processes, that's how I kinda had to think as like, you know, lead with the Shopify store, lead with your product page, then how you build your organic social around that.
• 29:57
  How do you build your email messaging around that? Then how like, you know... Because that's the thing, like especially with direct response, I know dir- direct response works to an extent, and I think people lean
• 30:10
  really heavy into that for, for scaling really hard.
• 30:15
  But at the same time, like the messaging is so different from your email, and it's so different from your organic social,[chuckle] and it's so different from what's on your website.
• 30:23
  You know, yeah, sure, you got them to click on the ad, but like, you know, whenever they, you know, especially if it's a very competitive landscape You know, how are they gonna know it's you?
• 30:34
  So I, I really like telling a story that's a little bit more seamless, uh, between each of those touchpoints. Yeah.
• 30:41
  Uh, I'm reminded of a, a brand owner who, who described himself as being good at branding and good at Instagram but sort of fell down when it came to all that automation and follow-through thereafter. Mm-hmm.
• 30:55
  He, he told me a story about being really proud about lowering his meta ad spend because he had the idea to take his truck... He's in sort of the outdoor space. Yeah.
• 31:04
  Uh, he took his truck, he went and bought some forty-four inch upgraded oversized tires, and the idea being his Instagram would become much more appealing. Mm-hmm.
• 31:14
  And he was driving home from the, uh, the place where it was done. It was, it was, um, a couple of miles away from his house.
• 31:22
  He ran out of gas three times because his gas mileage went down to, like, eight miles a gallon, and he's in the west, the Rocky Mountains, and, you know, getting from one gas station to the next- Oh boy...
• 31:29
  can be like sixty miles if you're not careful. So he sees himself as, "All right. Rather than meta ad budget, I'm just putting money into gas," and that's sort of a visual stunt. It's, it's eye-catching.
• 31:42
  It makes a difference. But being able to follow through and then turn that into something more substantive, more automated, more, more ongoing...
• 31:51
  You talked about the four pillars you have, the Figma board, but you've also built kind of a team around you that can, can operationalize all this, right? [inhales] Yeah. You know, I had to.
• 32:02
  Um, it was one of those things where I just needed these weekly repeatable systems that would compound. Um, I am not a financial trader.
• 32:12
  I, I don't really do, you know, like crypto or, or, you know, these kind of other things, but, like, you know, I do read a l- you know, a little bit of Charlie Munger and, and Warren Buffett, right?
• 32:21
  Like, I love that these guys, like, they're not on computers. They just read all day, and they just make really intelligent decisions. But they understand the power of compounding assets, right?
• 32:32
  And that's the way that I really treat e-commerce is like I'm creating-- You know, I'm not chasing trends. I'm not chasing virality. Do I go viral? Yes, I do. But it's not because I'm chasing it, you know?
• 32:44
  Like what I'm doing is I'm c-creating very systematically three hundred please... three hundred plus pieces of assets a month that I'm going to test organically.
• 32:55
  I'm not gonna stress if they're on brand or not on brand, you know, necessarily. Most of them are on brand.
• 33:01
  But at the same time, like I'm, I'm more interested in the system and the processing compounding over time because I believe a confused customer does not buy. You know? I think, you know, when
• 33:14
  y-when you have a clear message, clear education, that is going to win over the customer maybe not in a seven-day acquisition cycle that Meta likes to live on.
• 33:24
  You know, I've seen people convert ninety days, a hundred and eighty days, six months from now. I mean, we just did a thirty thousand dollar day with this varietal. So basically, we, we have this varietal of, of chili.
• 33:36
  So just think like Cabernet for wine. We have this varietal with a less sexy name called Big Jim. [chuckles] So, like, Big Jim is like this huge ver-varietal. We sold out of preorders.
• 33:47
  We had to s-we had to stop pre orders.
• 33:50
  And so we were able to find more farms, um, and that were able to sell us some more Big Jim, and so we were able to fulfill all our preorders and then sell Big Jim, and then we d-did a thirty thousand dollar date, and our new customer acquisition was through the roof that week, right?
• 34:05
  And so the financial advisors, bookkeeper, you know, GM, my partner's like, "What happened here?" I was like, "We gave people a reason to buy and a reason to buy now." Like, I'm not-- I don't preorder stuff in my life.
• 34:18
  Like, I'm not a preorder person, so, like, you know... Yes, there's a lot of demand from a preorder standpoint, but if you don't have the product in stock or if you don't have it available...
• 34:27
  And again, it just goes to, like, preorder to me, there's a layer of, like, conflict in there, right? There is... It's not a clear go. It's not a, it's not a green light. And so that's, that's why I go back.
• 34:39
  I, I think, you know, when you create these compounding assets that are consistent month over month over month, I mean, when you fire an agency, again, like, the messaging's gonna change, right?
• 34:49
  Like whenever you make a change, when you start sp- oh, yeah, I can't spend as much on Meta because of X, Y, Z, your messaging's gonna change.
• 34:57
  And so, like, I just believe in the power of compounding assets on e-commerce. Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. You know, I... One thing I just wanna, I just want to share. Reme- you mentioned a confused customer does not buy.
• 35:11
  That makes me sh-share the words of Donald Miller and the StoryBrand framework, and there's so much to be learned. I mean, it's a simple idea, but, uh, really get that messaging right is, is so important.
• 35:23
  And I don't know how you're thinking about this with the new brand. You're just getting started, but- Mm-hmm...there needs to be a clarity, right? Clarity of what we're talking about. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 35:31
  I mean, I, I love, like, Donald Miller and, and StoryBrand even if you were to use his analogy of, of the guide, right? I mean, that's all we are.
• 35:38
  We're just guiding people to the best hatch green chile in America, the best salsas in America. Yeah. And w-we do that to, like... To answer your question, uh, from previously, how do we build a cult following?
• 35:49
  You know, we have a Facebook group of thirty-six thousand members, and we do a r-uh, a winner, a recipe of the week. And then, you know, we made the customer the hero.
• 35:58
  The customer is now, you know, part of that, uh, journey as sharing their favorite recipes. And then we take, you know, fifty two winners, uh, you know, from, from that year, and then we turn it into a cookbook.
• 36:10
  And then all of a sudden, it's a cookbook that they can share with their friends and family. And, and then it-- Again, we're, we're, we're making them the star of the shows.
• 36:17
  And again, like, we're just, we're just guardians of that journey. We're just, you know, caretakers to, to guide them along. And so again, like, we'll even...
• 36:26
  You know, we, we even-- like, we'll make YouTube videos, uh, cooking their recipes, you know, as well too. Um, so it's a lot of fun, you know?
• 36:34
  And I think, you know, when you recognize the customer, you see the customer, you value the customer, and you're able to tell their story, you know, um, that's kinda what makes the, the magic between, like, commerce and entrepreneurs is very exciting
• 36:51
  Yeah. It, it's kind of amazing to me that you've got people enthusiastic about salsa and Facebook and all these things you're doing, but, but food is such a, a community attachment- Mm-hmm...
• 37:04
  sort of opportunity that builds relationships, and people, you know, have been s-- have been building friendships around food forever, right?
• 37:13
  So I think you have so sort of a, a opportunity there that any, any kind of brand with a... around eating- Mm-hmm... and food has there. Yeah.
• 37:20
  Now, you've taken the things you've done, you've put it into this new agency you're starting. Tell me about what's going on here, and the name of it, and what, what's a good customer for your agency? Yeah.
• 37:30
  So Move is the name of the agency, and it was something that was very accidental. I just had...
• 37:39
  I was publicly sharing what I was building online, and I started to have people in my DMs asking, "Hey, can you create content for us?" You know?
• 37:46
  And so Perfect White Tea, for example, flew us out to New York, and, you know, we did some video content, and then one of the ads did, like, 1.2 million for them. You know? And so I'm, I'm actually, uh [laughs]
• 38:00
  g- a decade ago, I am a filmmaker, I am a photographer, I'm a storyteller. Like, I, I... You know, this was, this is what I did.
• 38:06
  But at the same time, like, I was hesitant to do this for anyone else because it's very intensive, and it, and it took me, right?
• 38:13
  And so I think the cool thing about it is, you know, actually today we have a team of four going to Leadville, Colorado for Hollow Socks to document 10 days of this 100-mile mountain bike, you know, race, and a 100-mile run through, uh, Colorado, which is pretty intense.
• 38:31
  Uh, uh, I went with the crew last year and it was a lot of fun.
• 38:34
  But the reason why I was just so hesitant, and, and, and to answer your question from before, is because these systems really relied on me, and I didn't have the bandwidth to do so.
• 38:44
  And so I just really started kinda building out these systems and started mentoring my people. That's something that I really do, uh, with my, with my staff. Because there's been people...
• 38:54
  There's, there's been a guy who's worked with me through all my 10 ventures. He's been with me 15 years. There's another guy who's, you know, been with me seven years.
• 39:03
  You know, another, uh, a woman who's been with me six years. You know? So, like... And they come from all my previous ventures, so, like, they kind of understand, like, the Shopify ecosystem. They understand the space.
• 39:14
  And, you know, I, I think, like, they were, in their current roles, like at Fresh Chili, like Fresh Chili has to have a very tight payroll.
• 39:22
  I wasn't able to pay them more than X amount of dollars an hour, and it felt really like, man, they're, they're, they're so much more deserving than that.
• 39:30
  So at the agency, you know, where they can kinda service, you know, multiple clients instead of just one, their income levels were able to increase substantially, and now they have a career. You know, a career they can
• 39:43
  build a family with, buy a home with. So, like, for me, like, it kinda started with, uh, the people that really kinda helped me, you know, along the space. Um, that's kinda how the agency started.
• 39:54
  So, like, it was interesting just having people reach out and just asking if you could do it for me. And as I started to look around and looking at the people who have got me there, it was one of those moments where
• 40:05
  this is w-... This is what I enjoy. I love giving back. I love investing in people and, like, these are people that I've already known who are basically like family and friends for the last 10, 15 years of my life.
• 40:17
  And so I- I'm just extremely grateful now that they have more opportunities to k- kind of take the next step because they're not entrepreneurs. Like, they don't want to be entrepreneurs.
• 40:25
  Like, not everyone's meant to be an entrepreneur, but they do want a good place to work. They wanna make good money. They wanna take care of their family. And so that's kinda how it started.
• 40:34
  And now, you know, what's interesting is we definitely have seven, eight, nine figure clients, but we also have brands that are starting from z- from zero, and I think those are the brands that we, we, we like working with the most.
• 40:46
  I love, like, creating these... I love, like, sorta supercharging these brands from the get go because, you know, they have to, like...
• 40:53
  They start with meta, then they do email, maybe they start doing social, then they maybe do some Shopify conversion, right? Like, that process as an entrepreneur can take one, two, three, four, five years.
• 41:04
  So to be able to turn on all those core pillars for those brands and, and get them to start making money a little bit faster is, is, is something so...
• 41:13
  You know, I, I'm, I'm more of an operator and, and that's really, like, who, you know, I, I work best with, is, is an operator who's, who's, who's, you know, looking to kind of have a more of a lean operation, because that is the thing with Shopify.
• 41:26
  Depending on your product, um, your margins are gonna be f- pretty tight. So it's, it's just better for us, and that's what we kinda realized.
• 41:34
  Um, we're, we work better when, uh, we can just kinda help them with that journey, uh, get to zero, seven figures.
• 41:40
  And then usually seven, eight, nine figures I do recommend that you probably work with more specialized agencies, um, at that point. But yeah, it's been a lotta fun.
• 41:48
  So w- we do, we do a lotta creative work, and I, I think we, we help people get to their first seven figures. It sounds like you're,
• 41:56
  you're just focused on helping people, and you look around at what your community needs, or you look around at, at the, the freelancers or contractors that you were using need, and you're finding, say, how do we create value?
• 42:07
  Mm-hmm. How do we take someone who's a designer for a Fresh Chili thing on, you know, part-time basis and turn it into a career where they can take that design and apply it to Hollow Socks- Hmm...
• 42:16
  the latest big, you know scale up brand. Yeah, yeah. No, it's fun. I mean, I... This one guy started working for me, like, five years ago $13 an hour, you know, and now he's, like,
• 42:27
  you know, around six figures, and it's just like wow, that's amazing.
• 42:30
  So i-i-it's, it's very fulfilling because I've been living in this space, and I've had success in this space, but also this is what I'm building for the next couple decades. Like, I'm not going anywhere.
• 42:41
  So makes me like really excited that, you know, we get to build it together, because that's all that we ha- really have in life, is the people that co- you know, come alongside us.
• 42:50
  And, and, uh, you know, y- you wanna enjoy the people you work with Yeah.
• 42:56
  Well, for people who've enjoyed this conversation and they wanna, they wanna hear more, I think you and I are both gonna be in Utah here soon at the Commerce Catalyst event. Mm-hmm. Is that right? Yeah, yeah.
• 43:08
  I'm excited, yeah. Uh, that's gonna be a fun time. I was in Salt Lake a few weeks ago, and so it's fun to go back. Yeah. So you'll be at the Commerce Catalyst ECom Elevated conference. I'll be there as well.
• 43:19
  We can continue our conversation maybe at that point. Um- Yeah... I think you're also gonna be in San Diego coming up before too long. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be at Commerce- Tell us what's happening there...
• 43:30
  yeah, I'll, I'll be at Commerce Roundtable.
• 43:33
  Uh, last year I, um, shared my story with Fresh Chili and our shared sweeps, uh, giveaway experience, and so I think we gave r- give, gave away $100,000, uh, shared sweepa- sweepstakes giveaway, which was a lot of fun last year.
• 43:48
  But I, I would say this is probably the, you know, becoming like the premier, you know, e-commerce DTC event. And, uh, they have a really good lineup of speakers this year.
• 43:57
  I think Zach Stock of Marsmen and Hollow Socks and Ezra Firestone. And you know, they're gonna... They, they have a... You know, they're gonna have a good line-up for everyone. Yeah.
• 44:08
  Well, as the fall unfolds in Austin, we're gonna be developing some more events under Frankly Ecommerce banner. We've been hosting the Austin Shopify meetup for several years.
• 44:18
  And out of that is going to grow some small workshops for people who want to get around a table of 10, 12, 20 brands and feel like they can work through something at some level of death-- depth and support.
• 44:30
  So I'm looking forward to doing that in Austin. Um, might find opportunity for you to help in that as it, it expands over the, the months ahead. That'd be awesome.
• 44:38
  It's just an hour and a half for me on a plane, so that works well. [laughs] Yeah. All right. Well, is there anything else you'd wanna say as we wrap up here that you would encourage for someone who's listening to this?
• 44:50
  You've talked about the importance of really leaning into the product. I've underlined the importance of place, having a sense of place to be anchored.
• 44:59
  Um, you've talked about finding ways to tap all kinds of, uh, people that can help you and been creative about how you've been able to do that economically and with some- Hmm... innovation around that.
• 45:11
  You've talked about systematizing and building automation and operationalizing these kind of bright marketing clever ideas that sometimes at some point run outta steam, and how does it keep things building as a system.
• 45:23
  All very important.
• 45:25
  For anyone else who's listening to this and thinking about how to take a brand that maybe is a little bit at a plateau, maybe they just haven't quite got the momentum they'd imagined for themself, how would you encourage them at this time?
• 45:37
  That's a great question. Um, I would actually, I, I would look inside your heart and, and know that it is okay to recognize if it's something that you do wanna move forward with. Like I, I think that's important.
• 45:53
  And I've had to do that, you know, quite a bit, you know, um, 10, 10 times. And you know, understanding that like what got you here, it still serves a pur- purpose, and that's good. And that's, you know, that's amazing.
• 46:10
  And it teaches you so much experience potentially for the next venture. And then for some people, m- like it was for Fresh Chili for me,
• 46:20
  and you're on the verge of like really up against it, you know, trying to make payroll.
• 46:25
  And you know, maybe like your accountant's like, "Hey, like it's, it's bankruptcy," and i- you're like, "I still believe in it" and you gotta push through.
• 46:34
  I can't tell you what that inflection point is for anyone, but I think it's important to have that conversation with you, ri-, and with yourself because, you know, a lot of the success that you're gonna have in the future i- it, it's just, you know, by the experience you have today.
• 46:49
  So just, just look at something and, and see if it's something that's really worthy of you pushing through to the next side. And, and also knowing, you know, you can hang up your boots on this one. Like that's okay.
• 47:02
  So much of entrepreneurship is about a kind of grit or persistence that wants to drive things forward.
• 47:09
  And I've been an entrepreneur for going on 26 years, and how many times I think back to when I thought about giving up and if I hadn't done this or if I would do this.
• 47:19
  But I, I wanna underline what you just said about sort of being able to pause and maybe confront futility, which is, you know, anathema to how we think about an entrepreneur. They just always persist and carry on.
• 47:33
  Mm-hmm. But so much of what you were describing earlier in our conversation around that passion for the product, the belief in it- Yes...
• 47:40
  or the enthusiasm to support and help a place where you live, those are opportunities to touch the heart, to find not the, just the motivation but the inspiration to turn this- Right... into a thriving business.
• 47:52
  And so it's encouraging to me that you would, you would most encourage someone to, to look inside. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 48:02
  I, it's, it's very much just, you know, it's a, it's a mental game, it's a spiritual game, it's a physical game. And I'm learning things now that I wish I would've learned 10, 15 years ago.
• 48:15
  And now I'm having to come head-to-head with those, you know. Um, and I wish I would've treated this more like a, you know, probably like a professional athlete, you know, um, eh, up until this point. But it's important.
• 48:30
  That's very important. So yeah. I, I'm excited for the next... I'm, I'm excited for the next run Lord willing because, um, again, like to your point, like
• 48:42
  I knew my next venture would have to be w- like someone like Ezra, right?
• 48:47
  Like it would have to be with someone that I could, you know, sort of, you know, talk the same language with and, and, and, and really run with and, and have honest very hard conversations like You know, call b- blind spots, you know, um, with one another and respect one another.
• 49:04
  And so, um, yeah, uh, even this next venture I'm, I'm not doing it alone. I'm, I'm dealing with someone that I, I, I respect immensely, and I'm doing it with a team that I, I respect immensely as well.
• 49:19
  Well, entrepreneurship is a purifa- purifying fire, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I have a mentor who has encouraged me to ask the question: In what way am I an obstacle to the growth of my company?
• 49:37
  Hmm. Yeah. Because we can talk about meta ad spend, and customer acquisition cost, and this app and that. I mentioned Tai as an example of a new tool you might wanna consider.
• 49:47
  But how much of it is really about ourself, our own ways we get in the way of the company we could have? Right.
• 49:56
  Yeah, I've been having a lot of that self-reflection because I definitely have some lofty goals for this next venture. I'm definitely like, "Hey, let's go for nine figures."
• 50:04
  Nazareth's like, "Hey, seven figures is cool too, bro." Like, [laughs] you know, like... And, uh, but I do know, like, whatever that growth looks like for us, I'm, I'm gonna have to continue to get out of the way.
• 50:16
  And so, like, in this where I've been so hands-on in the past, I'm having to learn to just
• 50:26
  teach, learn, and trust, and I, I'm, I'm hoping that's the pathway to g- to get there because again, I, I, I continue to find that I'm the bottleneck. I, I'm the, I'm the person getting in the way of our success. Yeah.
• 50:39
  Well, I love that, that you're saying that you need to teach, learn, and trust as you think about this next business you're starting. That's good encouragement for anyone no matter how many years you've been at it.
• 50:50
  So Chris, thank you for talking with us at Frankly Ecommerce. I really enjoyed it, and please come back another time. Yeah, I'd love to. Thank you so much.
• 50:58
  We hope you enjoyed this episode of Frankly Ecommerce with host Patrick Scott Pittman. Read episode notes and get links to learn more at franklyecommerce.com.
• 51:08
  Next time you're in Austin, check out the Austin Shopify Meetup. It's open to all.
• 51:15
  There's a good chance you'll meet just the right person, as it's one of the longest running meetups with 2,600 participants going on 15 years.
• 51:25
  If you'd like to get more involved beyond the meetup, then Frankly Ecommerce pass holders participate in workshops and special invitation-only events. Subscribe to our newsletter at franklyecommerce.com to learn more.
• 51:39
  This episode is sponsored in part by the friendly team at eBusiness PROS, a marketing firm in Austin, Texas. If you're a brand seeking to connect with an enthusiast audience and hold their attention,
• 51:52
  if you want less discounting and more story, if you're curious about what we might mean by attuned marketing as contrast to behavioral trickery, then contact us at ebusinesspros.com. Ask for Abigail. That's me.