Latest / Evolutionary Men / How to Repair After a Fight (with Jayson Gaddis)

Transcript

How to Repair After a Fight (with Jayson Gaddis) · Evolutionary Men

0:00
Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back.
0:02
So I'm very excited today to welcome Jayson Gaddis, author of Getting to
0:08
Zero: How to Work Through Conflict in Your High-Stakes Relationships, and
0:13
founder of The Relationship School.
0:14
Jayson has led men's groups since 2006, trained as a gestalt therapist, and today
0:20
coaches married, high performing men who refuse to choose between their work and
0:26
their family.
0:27
He also hosts The Jayson Gaddis Podcast and writes Men and the Work.
0:32
Jayson, my man.
0:33
Welcome to Evolutionary Men.
0:35
Jayson Gaddis: Thank you, Jason.
0:36
Great to see you and great to be here.
0:38
Jason Lange: Yeah, I've been so excited to talk to you.
0:41
We bumped into each other for the first time in a while a couple months ago at a
0:44
men's conference.
0:45
And
0:47
yeah, man, you've been on quite a trajectory since I first knew you.
0:50
And you have a fantastic book, Getting to Zero.
0:54
Like we said, I want to talk about today.
0:56
And you just swim in all the waters I care about most deeply and certainly are
1:01
someone I look up to in terms of how I see you living your life.
1:05
So I'm very excited to get into it today and wanted to start with this great thing
1:10
in your book.
1:11
You open with this beautiful, honest introduction of yourself of, when I get
1:16
triggered, I'll blame you, and then shut down for days, which kind of, you know,
1:21
fantastically transparent.
1:23
What brought you to introducing yourself?
1:25
Jayson Gaddis: That honestly,
1:28
I have no idea.
1:29
I just, I like
1:32
learning from people who are honest and transparent,
1:37
and that helps me learn, you know, and I just,
1:42
you know, as you know, in Boulder, there's a lot of spiritual bypassing and
1:47
this belief that we can be on a summit and, like, we're done with our problems kind
1:51
of thing.
1:51
And I have a real allergic reaction to that.
1:55
So I just assume be a human that's just like everybody else, up and down
2:01
here and there, in and out, you know,
2:03
good days, bad days.
2:05
Jason Lange: And so, you know, I kind of want to start with that main hook in your book for guys
2:11
who haven't read it yet.
2:11
And I'll link to the book and everything later.
2:14
What does getting to zero mean?
2:16
And what does repair?
2:18
Like, why is that so important?
2:20
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I mean, essentially, the.
2:21
As you probably found out there, the book is really about repair.
2:24
It's about how do we get back to zero, which is get.
2:27
How do we get back to a good place
2:30
after we've had a conflict or a snag, a disagreement, a silent period,
2:37
how do we reconnect and feel good again together?
2:39
And that's
2:42
what I've been helping people with and trying to help myself with for 20 something
2:46
years.
2:46
And
2:48
so I think that's
2:50
the most important conversation in a long term relationship because we're inevitably
2:54
going to get disconnected,
2:56
have fights, disagree about things,
2:59
go into our childhood, strategies and patterns of when we get activated.
3:03
So
3:05
let's find ways to get back connected again.
3:09
Jason Lange: I love
3:11
the simplicity of that and in my mind how that ties to what you were talking about
3:15
of, you know, kind of some of the more bolder energy sometimes of certainly what
3:20
I've seen in certain couples and relationships of oh my God, you know, I love this
3:24
person.
3:24
And then now I'm getting triggered.
3:25
They must not be the one.
3:27
Right.
3:27
Because at first it was so easy, but now we're getting into fights all the time and
3:31
da, da, da, da.
3:32
And so, okay, I'm going to move on to the next person.
3:34
I'm going to move on to the next person and we'll talk a little bit about that here.
3:38
But
3:39
that to me, certainly in my relationship and now what I work with a lot of men on
3:44
is, well, what you actually want to look for is who can do that with you, who
3:47
actually has the capacity to get back to zero and is willing to lean into that
3:52
because guess what, it's going to keep coming at you no matter where you go.
3:58
And
3:59
yeah.
4:00
So obviously, you know, I work a lot with men and I know you do.
4:02
And a big part of, I think the challenges of us men often starts with how we're
4:07
raised.
4:09
And for you, you know, you talk about this, I think it was like sixth grade
4:14
fight, you got in and dad asked you this question.
4:16
Did you throw the first punch?
4:20
What did that mean to you?
4:21
And what did you learn about being a man even that far back that influenced you in
4:26
your growth and development?
4:28
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
4:30
Don't show emotions,
4:32
don't show weakness.
4:33
Be tough, act tough,
4:35
put on a front,
4:39
don't be vulnerable.
4:40
You know, strike first before someone can kind of strike your vulnerabilities.
4:45
Defend yourself.
4:49
Yeah, be an aggressor,
4:51
Be an asshole,
4:54
because that will get you.
4:56
He didn't say this, but the message I learned over time was
5:00
because all of that will get you belonging,
5:03
status,
5:04
connection with other boys,
5:07
connection with other men.
5:09
You will face less rejection
5:12
in your life if you do it this way.
5:15
And it's kind of true.
5:17
Jason Lange: Yeah.
5:17
In our default kind of masculine culture for sure,
5:21
unfortunately
5:23
that often it takes a little while to discover the downside for certain guys as they
5:27
get into a little, a little trouble later in life.
5:31
And there's kind of another side of that.
5:33
I wanted to ask about as well, because to me,
5:36
it's maybe the other direction a lot of men often get stuck in.
5:39
And you talk about
5:41
early on kind of learning to keep your feelings in and inviting the back of your
5:46
hand to stop crying.
5:48
Yeah.
5:49
What was happening for you in that?
5:51
And, you know, how do you think that has influenced
5:56
your journey as a man?
5:58
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah,
5:59
well, it.
6:00
It was huge.
6:01
Like, it.
6:02
It was so.
6:04
You know, my dad was an awesome guy and very
6:08
compromised emotionally,
6:11
and so that played out in his parenting with me.
6:15
And, you know, he was also subordinating to a construct about how to be a man, and
6:21
he just pass it down to me, you know.
6:23
Jason Lange: Yeah.
6:24
Jayson Gaddis: Because what else are you going to expect?
6:25
Unless he's looking in the mirror, which he wasn't doing.
6:29
And it's.
6:30
You know, I think for the first
6:33
few decades of my life, it was fine because I was participating in
6:38
boy culture and man culture
6:41
very by the book.
6:43
You know, acting tough, being good at sports,
6:47
not showing any weakness, keeping women kind of at an arm's length, making fun of
6:51
women,
6:53
you know, joining a fraternity, like, doing the bro thing.
6:59
And that was
7:03
what I needed to do.
7:04
You know, it's like.
7:05
And then I really got in so much pain that.
7:09
In terms of the part of your question that's like, how did that influence me?
7:12
Well, it.
7:12
It got me, again, a certain level of
7:15
belonging and connection and status and all the things.
7:18
But I felt pretty empty inside, pretty alone.
7:22
Had lots of male friends, so I felt alone in those relationships because we weren't
7:26
getting real.
7:29
And so,
7:30
yeah, when I finally was in so much pain that I got on the personal growth path,
7:34
then I was like, holy shit, there's another download about how to be a man, how to
7:39
be an adult
7:40
person
7:42
available.
7:42
And I ate it up.
7:44
I was ready.
7:45
I was psyched to do that.
7:47
And then, of course, I have a son who's 17, and so I've done my best to not
7:52
send him that message that my dad sent me
7:56
so that there's a lot more room for him to be emotional or
7:59
have needs or be vulnerable or, you know, all that.
8:04
Be sensitive and all the other things.
8:07
Yeah.
8:07
Jason Lange: And be human.
8:08
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, exactly.
8:09
Jason Lange: Yeah.
8:10
I want to just double click and really highlight what you shared there about, like.
8:15
I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions I often come across now in terms
8:19
of the space of men and men's loneliness and stuff, is that there's often the
8:25
stereotype of, well, yeah, it's a man who's alone in his bedroom on the Computer,
8:30
particularly even these days, you know, but oftentimes the guys that come to me
8:36
feeling the most lonely, they do have friends.
8:39
Yeah, right, right.
8:40
Like, this is the thing.
8:41
Like, you know, one of my clients recently, he was like, yeah, you know, I just went
8:45
on.
8:45
Every year I go on a ski trip with my buddies I've known since fourth grade.
8:49
And, you know, he's in the midst of a pretty painful breakup and divorce.
8:55
And not one of them.
8:57
Well, one guy asked me one sentence about it, and then no one else asked the whole
9:01
weekend because we just don't talk about that.
9:03
And so I came home.
9:05
Came home from spending four days with men feeling more lonely than ever.
9:09
And I think it's that.
9:11
It's the type of connection.
9:13
Right.
9:13
That I think
9:15
is us men, I think, are so particularly susceptible to now.
9:19
And that is programmed into us in a lot of ways because of that default culture of
9:23
what it means, particularly when we're young and entering
9:27
our kind of socialized year, of what it takes to fit in and all the downstream
9:31
consequences of that.
9:33
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good example.
9:35
I also was working with a client recently, very similar story.
9:39
And it's not only like, well, I did tell my friends about my breakup.
9:45
This guy went through a nasty breakup,
9:48
and they didn't really say anything.
9:51
So the other thing is.
9:52
So there's not a lot of permission to, number one, say something and be honest about
9:56
what's actually going on in your marriage or
9:58
your addictions or your porn habits or whatever.
10:01
There's just not a lot of room for that.
10:03
And so people keep it inside.
10:04
And then when a guy finally does take a risk and share it, the rest of the guys have
10:08
no idea what to do with it.
10:11
And it's like, ah, dude, you'll get through it, you know, and then we move on and
10:15
let's have another beer.
10:18
And that's.
10:19
That kind of perpetuates this
10:22
holding it in thing because no one's handling
10:25
the guy who's opening up very well.
10:28
So why would I share if I'm not going to get any contact and
10:32
none of these guys know what to do with it.
10:35
Jason Lange: Yeah, that's such a beautiful,
10:38
painful.
10:40
I was working with a guy in one of my groups recently, and he was talking about all
10:44
this in terms of just that phrase, walk it off.
10:47
I just walk it off.
10:48
And it's.
10:50
It just strikes me that's another version of that.
10:52
Oh, you'll be fine.
10:52
Just walk.
10:53
Just walk it off, man.
10:53
You'll get over her.
10:54
It's all good.
10:55
And it's like, yeah, that's not super helpful when I'm in pain.
10:58
Like, it doesn't actually bring anything to me in that sense.
11:01
And it's just maybe a more subtle version of that message I think so many boys
11:06
particularly get when they're young, through adolescence, and even into adulthood.
11:13
And then.
11:13
Yeah.
11:14
So to kind of tie in the pattern in relationships of,
11:19
well, okay, you know, maybe it's not feeling great now, so I'm going to go find
11:22
someone else.
11:23
And then here's this thing again.
11:26
You talk about when you were 29 in a string of relationships that were kind of
11:29
ending in similar ways, and this whole it's not you, it's me thing turned out to be
11:35
true.
11:36
What was the insight you had at that age that really started to wake something up in
11:41
you?
11:42
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I mean, you spoke to it earlier when you were kind of using that hypothetical
11:46
example of someone who's rinse and repeat the same, you know, oh, I don't like this.
11:51
I'm getting kind of activated.
11:52
I want it to be easy, like the honeymoon stage, and so I'll just go find a new
11:55
person.
11:55
That was me.
11:56
I was like, dude, you talking about me?
11:58
Because I did that for about 10 years
12:01
with seven different women.
12:03
And
12:05
I can't believe I did it that long.
12:09
I mean, some people do it for decades, but I was, you know, took me about 10 years
12:13
and
12:15
I finally breaking up with the.
12:17
The.
12:18
This last woman I dated before I moved to Boulder,
12:22
realizing as you.
12:23
As you shared there that I was the common denominator and all those things.
12:26
And it hit me like a ton of bricks.
12:28
And I was like, oh, my God, if that's true, then I can do something about that
12:33
because I.
12:33
I was kind of doing this outside in thing.
12:35
Well, she's not enough, and there's something kind of wrong with her and she's not
12:38
quite right and.
12:40
Which was all a ruse for me, protecting myself and not taking a risk and being
12:44
vulnerable.
12:48
So, yeah, when I saw that, whoa, maybe I'm the problem,
12:52
then I started getting some.
12:55
Jason Lange: Yeah, I love not only how you spoke about taking responsibility for that, but I
13:00
think sometimes
13:02
something not all men I work with realize, but there's actually quite a bit of
13:05
empowerment in that.
13:07
Right.
13:07
Of like, oh, wait, maybe we actually have some levers here.
13:10
I have control over.
13:11
So it's not just the same hamster wheel over and over and over.
13:15
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, Yeah.
13:16
I mean, if we can.
13:17
This is so important in relationship work and when we're in conflict with Someone is
13:21
being able to take responsibility.
13:24
It's very freeing.
13:25
Even though to the ego.
13:26
It's also kind of humbling and not that fun.
13:30
And to sort of admit that we have a part
13:34
and look at it closely and some of us are over self blamers.
13:38
So those people struggle because they're like, I already do take all this
13:41
responsibility and it's always my fault.
13:43
We're not talking about that.
13:45
Of course.
13:46
We're talking about just the kind of clean.
13:48
I did the thing.
13:49
I raised my voice, I hurt your feelings.
13:51
I forgot about you.
13:54
That goes a long way.
13:55
It's one of the things that softens the other person the most.
13:59
If we're with a willing person, you know.
14:02
Absolutely.
14:03
Jason Lange: Certainly a journey I've been on having to.
14:05
As a.
14:06
You could talk to my wife.
14:07
My initial responses were I would lawyer up.
14:11
To actually become a lawyer is to defend my position and explain why what she was
14:16
feeling was wrong.
14:17
Like, well, if you just understood my intent and I didn't mean to.
14:20
Da da da, da da.
14:21
So you shouldn't be feeling that.
14:23
That never worked, to say the least.
14:27
Does not lead to a very open partner versus the stepping in.
14:31
I kind of sometimes joke
14:34
when it hit me was like, well, if I was a kid and you and I were playing and
14:38
accidentally hit you in the head with a bat and it wasn't intentional, you still
14:42
want to hear me say like, dude, I'm sorry I hit you in the head even if I didn't
14:46
mean it right.
14:46
It's like it still hurts.
14:48
The impact is still the same.
14:50
When I had that wake up, it was like, oh, yeah, okay.
14:52
I can own that.
14:53
It wasn't my intent.
14:54
And I really get.
14:55
I hurt you.
14:56
And like, yeah, I really get raising my voice or shutting down, which is more my
15:00
kind of thing.
15:02
Really left you abandoned.
15:04
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, yeah.
15:05
I always tell guys to just delete.
15:08
That wasn't my intention.
15:09
From your hard drive.
15:11
Just delete it permanently.
15:13
It's going to go nowhere.
15:15
Jason Lange: Doesn't really do anything.
15:16
That's great.
15:20
And then.
15:20
Yeah.
15:20
So another thing, you know, we were talking a little bit just before we hopped on
15:24
here.
15:24
I work with a lot of nice guys
15:27
I'm close to Dr.
15:28
Glover,
15:29
trained with him.
15:30
A lot of his guys come to me and you have something.
15:33
A frame here I think is really kind of hitting the nail on the head of you described
15:37
like a trade.
15:38
Every kid makes true self for belonging.
15:41
And you were kind of talking about that inside yourself a little bit.
15:45
Can you explain that a little more?
15:46
And then in particular how have you seen that show up in grown men's relationships?
15:52
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, totally.
15:54
Yeah.
15:54
When we're boys.
15:56
Obviously this is true for girls too.
15:57
But I'll just kind of put it in the boy language.
16:00
We get the message pretty fast about what's okay and what's not okay in the family
16:05
system.
16:05
And we.
16:07
What's okay are things that
16:09
create the least amount of pain in the family and the most amount of connection.
16:14
And so we double down on those behaviors
16:17
and I call them strategies
16:20
and we start to prune away the behaviors that create pain or distance or rejection
16:26
or
16:27
more upset in the system.
16:30
And so for me, as an example, emotions as we talked about were hard for my dad
16:36
to swallow.
16:36
And even my mom,
16:38
I was kind of too sensitive, too emotional, too much there.
16:41
So I was like, oh, okay, this is.
16:44
Yeah, let's just shut her down.
16:47
You know, let's put that part of us away
16:50
in exchange for behaviors that they prefer which are perform in sports, get decent
16:55
grades, be funny, be charming,
16:59
make me feel good as a mom.
17:00
That was my mom.
17:02
My dad was like, you know, suck it up and just
17:05
win, you know, at whatever sports and try hard and work hard.
17:09
And so I was like, oh, okay, I gotta do that.
17:12
Right.
17:12
But the cost was my true self, as I say, like the true feelings and the true
17:16
experience underneath was totally missed.
17:20
And
17:22
it wasn't until this is the beauty of relationship pain and failures later in life
17:26
is
17:27
starts to bring up the same thing and it turns into this
17:32
one manifestation is the nice guy syndrome where if I learn to make my mom feel
17:37
good, that was kind of download on my mom's side was definitely a nice, more nice
17:43
guy, take care of her, look after her,
17:46
the expense of myself.
17:48
And so nice guys, you know, later in life it becomes like a caretaker.
17:52
And there's a lot of therapists and coaches of course that are like this because
17:56
they, they're good at looking after others.
17:58
Yeah.
17:58
You know, but at often at the expense of their own well being.
18:03
And.
18:04
Yeah.
18:05
And so that, that's what's cool about relationship is it becomes a path to see that
18:09
about yourself.
18:11
And
18:12
often those relationships don't work that well if I'm just in my nice guy strategy
18:18
and she's in her mean girl strategy or whatever, which usually there's some kind of
18:23
lock and key like that.
18:25
And then it plays into our attachment dynamics as well.
18:29
You know, that's just hard.
18:32
Yeah.
18:32
But long term relationship can slowly correct it.
18:36
Meaning
18:37
it's an opportunity to be yourself and be authentically you.
18:42
Because the nice guy will also withhold and avoid conflict.
18:45
Withhold truth and avoid conflict because, oh, I don't want to rock the boat over
18:49
there, because when I did that as a kid, it didn't go so well.
18:53
So I'll just kind of minimize.
18:54
Ah, it's not that big of a deal.
18:56
And I won't bring it up because she's going to get upset and then I'm upset.
18:59
And,
19:00
you know, this turns into the whole birth of conflict avoidance.
19:04
And
19:05
you can't.
19:05
I always say it's very, very hard to have a really good relationship if you're not
19:09
bringing what you're actually thinking and feeling to the table.
19:13
That's honest.
19:16
Jason Lange: Yeah.
19:17
That transparency in realness is what often creates
19:23
connection.
19:23
Right.
19:24
When it's the real thing.
19:25
And then, you know, certainly my life and
19:29
often a common strategy was, well, I'm going to figure out
19:32
what you need to hear
19:34
to keep the peace.
19:35
But then there's no real connection because it's, it's, it's made up.
19:39
It's like fake.
19:39
It's not authentic.
19:40
Jayson Gaddis: Right.
19:41
Yeah.
19:41
Jason Lange: So just a lot of people choose to date, fortunately.
19:44
Jayson Gaddis: Totally.
19:45
Yeah.
19:45
I'll just put my best foot forward and I won't show you who I really am, you know.
19:49
Jason Lange: Yeah.
19:50
Jayson Gaddis: But to tweak the thing you said of like, it creates connection.
19:53
It does.
19:53
It creates a kind of connection.
19:55
It's like a compromised connection
19:58
that I'm leaving parts of myself behind.
20:00
So it's, it's always going to be limited.
20:03
Usually if we're really willing to bring the truth out, it creates conflict
20:08
initially first,
20:10
but then that becomes the doorway to a deeper, more authentic connection for us.
20:14
But I can only get there if I speak up and share my real feelings.
20:19
And we're not talking about dumping and judging and being a complete jerk.
20:23
We always want to be sensitive to impact.
20:25
Of course, we should care about the other person's feelings when we're speaking the
20:29
truth.
20:32
But no matter how careful or skillful we're being, the other person is likely going
20:36
to still get upset.
20:39
Because a lot of people want, you know, I want to be able to speak truth without you
20:42
getting upset.
20:43
It's like, good luck with that.
20:44
Jason Lange: Yeah.
20:46
So true.
20:48
Yeah, that's.
20:49
I've heard that.
20:50
And just the way you said it really connected a dot for me of like, oh, yeah, that's
20:54
just not going to happen.
20:55
You know, like, you gotta be willing to rest in that and, you know, simultaneously,
21:01
certainly in, in.
21:02
In my marriage.
21:03
That's exactly what makes it worth it to stay in with her, though, is we can go
21:08
there with each other and stay in enough connection.
21:13
Right.
21:13
That it's like, okay, you want something, I want something.
21:16
There's conflict here, but we're not disconnecting, which was how the majority of my
21:20
life was in most of my relationships before that.
21:24
When I found someone who could hang in that, like, oh, this is uncomfortable space,
21:28
I was like, holy shit, I've never had this before.
21:30
This is special, right?
21:31
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
21:32
Nice.
21:33
Exactly.
21:34
Yeah.
21:34
Not everybody wants to hang in that space, and that's okay.
21:36
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:39
And then kind of related to this, you talk about
21:42
the two shitty choices, right?
21:44
Which are kind of a frame for maybe what you just talked about of kind of.
21:47
Certainly for nice guys, like speaking up and then fearing the worst kind of outcome
21:53
or the betraying oneself to kind of keep the peace or the connection.
21:59
What in your mind is like choice C and what does it take to actually bring it
22:04
forward?
22:06
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah,
22:08
exactly.
22:09
So speak up.
22:11
The fear is, I'm going to lose relationship.
22:12
That's choice A.
22:13
Choice B is don't say anything, betray myself, be quiet,
22:17
business as usual.
22:18
And people don't, you know, people get.
22:22
Just stuck there, really stuck there.
22:23
And they.
22:24
They default always, pretty much to choice B.
22:27
And so how do we get out of that is.
22:28
Yeah, choice C, which is like, stands for conflict.
22:32
You gotta be willing to go through the fire.
22:35
And ultimately it's choice C is choice A, which is, I'm gonna speak up and I'm gonna
22:38
do it the best I can.
22:40
And we're gonna have an agreement.
22:42
Like, this is where we zoom way out as a couple
22:45
or as friends,
22:46
where it's like, conflict is okay.
22:50
And we agree that we want each other's truth.
22:53
We want you to.
22:54
We want both people in this relationship to be able to freely express themselves
22:58
because we both.
22:59
That sucked for us in our childhood, usually.
23:01
So we got kind of punished or blamed or something.
23:04
We're not going to do that here.
23:05
We want, you know, we agree it's okay.
23:09
And we also agree that if it starts to get crunchy and not okay,
23:13
we can
23:15
say, can we pause and come back to this later?
23:17
We can hire an expert to come in and facilitate it for us.
23:21
We can
23:23
ask the person to slow down.
23:25
You know, we can do a lot of things, but we will.
23:28
We also agree that we will stay in it.
23:31
No one's going to threaten the relationship.
23:33
We're going to attend to it in a timely manner.
23:35
Like 24 hours.
23:38
We're gonna, you know, so there's some agreements in other words.
23:41
Right.
23:42
That can.
23:42
Or act as guardrails,
23:45
sort of rules of engagement that keep us tethered.
23:47
Because when we're emotional and we're really triggered, we.
23:49
We.
23:50
We kind of have this part of us that's like all bets are off.
23:52
Like.
23:54
And then that's where we do and say stupid things
23:57
because we're just like, well, I'm emotional and you're not caring about me, and I'm
24:01
just, you know, I'm.
24:01
I don't know if I can do this anymore.
24:04
And that makes it worse, usually.
24:07
Jason Lange: Yeah.
24:08
Yeah.
24:08
Then you have double work to do.
24:10
Here's the original incident, and then there's the way you just engaged with that
24:14
incident.
24:15
And suddenly there's two things to repair.
24:17
And I just want to make this lightning clear for guys, because I think you named it.
24:22
But
24:23
that practice of zooming out and setting those agreements, you do that when you're
24:27
not in the fight.
24:28
Right.
24:28
So you talk about that when you're both kind of online in a rational place
24:35
at a time where there is a little bit of receptivity to each other, so that
24:40
when you're in that kind of fire, there's something you can both grab onto in terms
24:44
of structure.
24:45
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, really well said.
24:46
Exactly.
24:48
Jason Lange: And that's certainly,
24:50
certainly something I never had modeled for me in my family of, like, having those
24:55
kinds of conversations.
24:57
And it's like, oh, yeah, like, if you don't do it, it doesn't happen.
25:00
You know, you have to actually like.
25:01
And I think, particularly as men, like, no, I'm going to schedule a time and we're
25:05
going to sit down and we're going to actually talk about this because if we don't,
25:09
then we keep getting into these fires and, you know, that's not the time to be
25:13
building the agreement, so to speak.
25:18
And yeah, so this kind of comes into the next thing I was curious about.
25:22
So, you know, let's say there's a rupture in relationship and
25:27
I do need to apologize,
25:29
but maybe I'm a guy who apologizes all the time and is a little bit more like that
25:32
man you were talking about.
25:33
This was certainly me, maybe kind of.
25:35
So I would say I'd kind of fall on the sword of shame.
25:39
Would just basically end any conversation with my wife.
25:43
Like, just, oh, I'm such a piece of shit.
25:44
You're right.
25:45
It's a just like, done.
25:46
And then there was.
25:47
There was actually no room, nowhere to go for me to receive any feedback for
25:51
anything to happen.
25:53
What makes, like, a useful apology and you know,
25:58
how do you work with
25:59
clients around this?
26:01
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
26:02
I think the apology should be the period at the end of the sentence
26:07
if you're going to apologize.
26:09
Not every nervous system needs an apology.
26:12
You have to know your partner here.
26:15
For example,
26:17
I never need my wife to say, I'm sorry.
26:19
It doesn't do much for my nervous system, but she really likes.
26:24
I'm sorry.
26:25
It does a lot for her nervous system.
26:28
So we.
26:29
We
26:31
do that in our marriage.
26:33
Right.
26:33
Best we can.
26:35
But it has.
26:36
There's a few things that have to happen before,
26:39
in my experience.
26:41
Right.
26:41
Because here's.
26:42
I'll just give you the example.
26:43
You and I got into a snag.
26:44
Jason, hey.
26:45
Hey, man, I'm sorry.
26:47
Okay?
26:48
That's what most people do.
26:50
Or you could say, hey, Jason, I just want to take responsibility for the fact that I
26:56
was late for our meeting.
26:59
I can imagine the impact on you was that you felt kind of frustrated and annoyed
27:03
because your time is valuable.
27:04
And it was almost like I kind of disrespected your time.
27:08
And,
27:09
man,
27:11
I'm just feeling the heaviness of that.
27:13
And I feel some shame about how I treated you there,
27:17
and I'm really sorry.
27:19
Like, which one do you like better, you know, A or B?
27:23
Most people prefer, like, the whole thing before, Right?
27:27
Jason Lange: Yeah,
27:29
totally.
27:29
My whole nervous system just relaxed.
27:31
Even theoretically getting that from me, I was like, oh, wow.
27:34
I feel so respected and, like, seen and
27:37
known.
27:38
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
27:39
Jason Lange: That's super powerful.
27:40
And you just named again.
27:42
I think that's a great example of taking the time to actually discover what does my
27:48
partner's nervous system actually respond to?
27:51
Like, yeah, does she need the apology?
27:53
Do I need the apology?
27:54
Like, let's talk about that instead of just,
27:57
I don't know, habitually falling into what we're supposed to do.
28:01
Right.
28:01
Oh, my God, I heard her.
28:02
I'm supposed to apologize, et cetera, but actually, like, find out what.
28:05
What's the thing that feels really good.
28:08
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
28:08
And if I was recommending a kind of a.
28:11
The framework is there's three things I did there with Jason
28:15
that I want to underscore in case people are wondering.
28:19
It's.
28:19
The first thing I did was own.
28:21
Right.
28:22
So ownership's step one.
28:24
Second thing I did was validate your feelings.
28:26
Makes sense.
28:26
You felt frustrated.
28:28
Right.
28:29
I said something like, I can imagine you felt that because we didn't actually have a
28:32
dialogue, a conversation, but I'm guessing you would have expressed some
28:37
frustration.
28:37
Right.
28:39
So let's say you did.
28:39
I'd say, yeah, it makes Sense you're frustrated.
28:41
So those three words that makes sense are validation.
28:44
And then the third thing was
28:49
ownership.
28:50
Validation.
28:52
No, no, sorry.
28:53
I would reflect back.
28:55
So these can be done in any step.
28:57
Okay.
28:57
But there's three things reflecting back.
28:59
The essence of what the person is upset about,
29:03
getting their world a little bit,
29:05
validating the feelings and owning.
29:07
So it's just three things.
29:08
No matter how you slice them up, this will help immensely with repair.
29:14
And
29:15
it moves the needle big time.
29:17
And most people, most nervous systems like those three things.
29:21
Jason Lange: That's a great simple three legged stool there.
29:24
Yeah, nice three legged stool put on my refrigerator.
29:29
Just, hey, honey, this is my cheat sheet.
29:32
But it works.
29:34
And so this is kind of hot off the press.
29:37
I'll link to this in the show notes.
29:38
But you recently did this episode, Men who Do Therapy But Their Situation Doesn't
29:43
Change.
29:44
And it strikes me
29:47
you're pretty unique in the space of people.
29:49
I talk about both having a therapeutic background and a men's work background.
29:53
Sometimes it's kind of like either or in a lot of guys I work with.
29:58
Yeah, just kind of give us the headline, you know, I'll refer people to the full
30:01
episode.
30:01
But who's that man?
30:02
And yeah, what have you seen?
30:04
Like what's missing for him?
30:06
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I'm thinking of this guy, this client, former client now,
30:12
who
30:13
does therapy, but his life doesn't change.
30:18
And so I'm always like, okay, is that there's two possibilities, three possibilities
30:22
here.
30:22
User error,
30:24
practitioner error, or both.
30:26
Right.
30:26
A combo.
30:28
And often
30:30
people don't know what they're looking for.
30:32
And so we just have to name that.
30:34
Sometimes you're, you've hired a person that's not that helpful.
30:37
They don't know what the fuck they're doing.
30:39
They may have a ton of credentials and training, but they actually have no fucking
30:43
clue how to help you change your life and move forward.
30:46
That is often going on with some of these guys.
30:50
Um, another subset of guys are guys who go to the good person.
30:54
They find actually a decent practitioner.
30:57
But they, they're deep down inside.
30:59
They still have an entitled victim in there that actually doesn't want to change.
31:05
And my work with those guys are to get that guy to own that.
31:11
And it's hard to do because there's a lot of self protection around that ego
31:15
structure
31:17
and a lot of denial and defense.
31:20
So it's a little tricky on how do we confront
31:24
really the strategy of, no, no, I'm truly a victim here and it's other people's
31:29
fault or it's my wife's fault or whatever.
31:32
And those guys have a really hard time changing anything.
31:36
Those people can stay in therapy for years and get nowhere.
31:40
Right.
31:41
And then there's the combo.
31:42
Sometimes it's
31:45
not only is the guy kind of victimy, but the practitioner's not helping.
31:49
They're just collecting a paycheck.
31:51
Jason Lange: Sure, yeah.
31:52
Yeah, totally.
31:54
I've
31:55
had clients mostly report that, particularly in couples work.
32:01
Honest to God.
32:01
Of like,
32:03
I'm not a therapist.
32:04
My wife and I, we work with couples sometimes.
32:06
We're kind of the wild west in that sense.
32:08
But they'll come to us and they'll be like, oh, my God, you're telling us things to
32:12
do.
32:13
Like, you're giving us things, like a structure to move through.
32:16
We've been seeing this therapist for three years, and we would basically sit down
32:19
and we would just complain,
32:21
like, and they didn't know how to guide us.
32:24
And it just strikes me that's a little bit maybe that other side.
32:27
And then if one of the partners is in that place, well, it's all her fault.
32:30
You got the double whammy, and nothing is going to change at all.
32:34
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
32:35
Yeah.
32:35
And men.
32:36
Men get.
32:36
I think
32:38
I.
32:38
I'm going to kind of generalize and stereotype a little bit.
32:40
I do think men get a little burned in couples therapy sometimes because often
32:44
they're going to a female couples therapist
32:47
and because there's just way more of them
32:50
on the menu
32:52
and they don't know, and maybe their wife has made the choice and they're like,
32:56
okay, fine, I'll go.
32:58
But
32:59
they tend to feel ganged up on.
33:01
Even if that's not occurring
33:03
right.
33:04
Even if it's a really good, balanced person, they still might feel that way.
33:07
Two women against me.
33:09
Yeah.
33:10
But again, a good practitioner would really does it.
33:13
Even a female or male practitioner
33:16
can really help a man feel totally welcome and safe and like, dude, I got your back
33:21
here.
33:21
This is a.
33:22
You know, both of you have a part, and we're going to deal with it.
33:27
So there's.
33:28
Yeah.
33:29
And there's just a lot of.
33:30
Again, this is my.
33:32
One of my rants.
33:32
But there's just a lot of bad therapy and bad couples therapy, and same with
33:36
coaching, you know.
33:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:40
Jason Lange: The.
33:40
The credentials on either side don't necessarily
33:45
represent the capacity to actually meet anyone in.
33:49
In deep contact.
33:50
Um, so then, yeah, kind of extended from this
33:55
around the other part we were just talking about.
33:58
You know, you've been around men's groups for a long time.
34:00
I mean, since I was Barely like putting my toe in.
34:03
You were.
34:04
You were already in that water back.
34:05
Back in the day when we first met.
34:08
And I'm very pro therapy.
34:10
You know, I send guys therapy all the time because it's different.
34:13
It's just a different.
34:14
It's like working out a different muscle in a different way.
34:16
It's like cross training.
34:17
But what have you.
34:18
Yeah.
34:19
Having been around men's groups for a long time and been in the therapeutic world,
34:22
what do you see?
34:23
And maybe in your own personal life, what have you gotten from other men that you
34:27
can't or you see men get from other men that they don't necessarily get from a
34:31
partner or a therapist?
34:33
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
34:34
That's such a good question.
34:35
And I'm curious what you would say too, because I don't.
34:38
My first answer is, I don't know, but I know for a fact it's critical,
34:46
it seems.
34:49
Yeah, there's something about
34:51
men helping and challenging and supporting other men,
34:56
especially in a group context.
34:59
That is
35:00
therapy just can't touch it somehow.
35:05
And
35:07
so you're like the.
35:08
The combo approach as kind of what you're alluding to is kind of the best.
35:12
It's like, have your individual practitioner and be in a men's group.
35:16
And maybe you could say group therapy could also be a replacement for
35:21
a men's group, if, again, it's done really well.
35:24
But group therapy,
35:26
like, there's something about having women not in the space
35:30
and not welcome.
35:31
And it's like, guys are like, oh, sweet.
35:34
They feel maybe freer to talk about their wives.
35:37
If we're talking heterosexual men, mostly, there's more.
35:41
There's more freedom, you know, to talk about porn and
35:48
just all the things they deal with with their, quote, female partner that they're
35:51
struggling with.
35:53
And
35:55
I don't know,
35:56
it's kind of a stumper for me.
35:58
The question.
35:59
I've thought about it a lot, but for some reason, I don't have a great answer right
36:02
now.
36:02
I'm curious what you would say, how
36:04
Jason Lange: I often put it.
36:05
I mean, you could probably flesh this out even more than me, is
36:09
the direction of attunement.
36:10
So the beautiful thing about a therapeutic relationship, if it's done well, is the
36:15
purpose of that container, is the attunement is going one way.
36:18
The therapist is attuning to me.
36:20
I am not asking you, Jason, my therapist, how is your week?
36:24
Are you doing okay?
36:25
Like, you know, I'm not having to attune to you.
36:28
Jayson Gaddis: It's.
36:28
Jason Lange: I'm actually paying for the one direction where the Attention is just on me.
36:33
And for, you know, so many of us who didn't necessarily have attuned caregivers,
36:37
that's deeply healing.
36:38
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
36:38
Jason Lange: It's just, oh, my God.
36:40
I get to just be.
36:41
Jayson Gaddis: It's all about me.
36:42
Jason Lange: Wow.
36:42
Jayson Gaddis: I'm getting support.
36:43
Jason Lange: It's all about me.
36:44
And we get to develop this kind of
36:46
consistent, safe relationship over time.
36:49
And then in a men's group, it goes both ways.
36:54
Sometimes I'm attuning to you, and sometimes you're attuning to me.
36:57
And it's about a peer connection.
37:00
Right.
37:00
Where it's not just one person's here and one person's here.
37:03
In a sense, there's a kind of relationality to it.
37:06
And
37:08
many guys I've worked with,
37:10
two things happen.
37:12
On the one hand, they're like, oh, my fucking God, it's so nice to hear about other
37:15
men's pain and realize I'm not the only one who's having trouble with my wife or my
37:19
finances.
37:19
Like, I thought I was the only one who was uniquely fucked up and struggling in
37:23
life.
37:23
Because everyone else on Instagram looks so fucking great.
37:26
Right.
37:27
Just the exhale of, wow.
37:30
Even this guy who I projected all over has it all figured out.
37:33
Cause he has all this money, he's in pain just like me.
37:36
It'd be different pain, and that's relieving.
37:39
And also, many guys have come into my groups and they're just relieved.
37:45
Swear to God, sometimes for, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes, if we're putting the
37:49
attention on someone else to not be lost in their own shit, it's just actually
37:53
liberating to be focused on someone else.
37:57
Right.
37:57
It's just like, yeah, my life's, you know, going up, but it's just so nice to be
38:01
here for you tonight.
38:02
Right?
38:03
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah.
38:03
Jason Lange: And there's just something about that kind of peer,
38:06
I don't know, concoction or what.
38:08
What I would.
38:09
I don't know what I call that, but that's seems to be different.
38:12
And, you know, I often quote, there was this research study, it was like a year ago,
38:17
I think, in Canada, that really shocked me because it poked a lot of my
38:22
preconceptions about men and suicide, where they tracked
38:28
men who attempted suicide.
38:30
And it was something like actually
38:32
over half
38:34
had actually reached out for some kind of mental health support.
38:38
Jayson Gaddis: Hmm.
38:39
Jason Lange: But what they got back
38:42
clearly didn't hit something that was going on inside of them.
38:47
And I don't know what that is, but my conjecture is it's the thing that can happen
38:53
in A peer group of men that you're not alone.
38:57
We're, we're all in this, we're all struggling.
39:00
You know, I've seen many times
39:04
men who have the very tender share of, you know, they're not necessarily actually
39:09
suicidal, but they've had an ideation or two and they admit it like, yeah, there's
39:12
been a time in my life I just, part of me just wanted to check out.
39:17
And
39:18
one of the most powerful medicines I've seen is when there's a man standing right
39:21
next to him and he's just like, yeah, man, I've been there, I get it.
39:24
And just, just to hand around him, like I've been there and just the.
39:28
Oh my God,
39:31
that happens in that, that I guess could happen in a therapeutic relationship.
39:35
But there's just something different about the peer version.
39:38
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I agree.
39:39
I like everything you said.
39:40
I want to underscore that last point, which you said a few different ways of.
39:46
There, there is something about I'm not alone
39:49
and I've been there
39:52
that can't actually a therapist kind of one on one relationship can't even touch.
39:58
So the group ends up doing a lot of the work for a man.
40:03
It's not even the facilitator, right?
40:05
Jason Lange: Yes.
40:06
Jayson Gaddis: So the facilitator like.
40:07
And there is a distinction between a peer led men's group versus a facilitated men's
40:12
bias experienced facilitator.
40:15
But even still in both of those, the group does a lot of the work.
40:20
Jason Lange: Yeah.
40:21
And
40:22
last thing, I guess I'll just share that I think is part of the secret sauce too.
40:26
I'm sure you see it is the,
40:29
so the, the, the kind of viral nature of vulnerability.
40:35
Right.
40:35
So it's like a kind of, maybe it's a new group kind of come in, everybody's
40:39
defended.
40:40
One man is the man who says, you know what, fuck that, I'm coming forward.
40:45
Here's where I'm in pain, here's what I'm actually feeling.
40:47
Here's what happened to me.
40:49
Here's where I'm struggling, here's where I doubt.
40:52
And then suddenly another man's like, well, fuck if Jason's gonna be that brave,
40:56
well, I can share about my thing too.
40:58
And then he steps in and then another man steps in and then it like
41:02
creates this kind of momentum that I know for me was actually a lot harder to do in
41:08
my one on one therapeutic relationships initially because I was just kind of very
41:13
sophisticated in being vulnerable enough to, you know, kind of perform vulnerability
41:18
for my therapist initially.
41:20
And then Groups really like brought me in in a different way.
41:23
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, agreed.
41:25
Cool.
41:27
Jason Lange: And
41:28
okay, so one last section and then we'll get you out of here on time,
41:32
man.
41:32
You had this great thing
41:34
of kind of repair at home, kind of going back to that now.
41:38
And I actually think it connects to men's group, at least
41:42
in my life.
41:43
The most resourced person goes first.
41:47
Talk about that a little bit and what that
41:50
might ask of a man in a marriage.
41:53
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah,
41:54
interestingly, my wife and I just talked about this.
41:58
We just recorded a podcast on this on our couples podcast.
42:01
But
42:02
yeah, so that is.
42:04
I actually said it differently before I wrote the book, which was the most mature
42:09
person goes first.
42:10
And that didn't go well
42:13
Jason Lange: because then
42:14
Jayson Gaddis: it's like, I'm more mature than you, so I'm going to go first.
42:17
Another way to put down your fucking bar, partner.
42:19
I'm like, that's
42:20
oops.
42:22
I can't believe I said that.
42:23
People bought it.
42:24
Anyway,
42:25
so I moved it to most resourced, which is kind of a partial truth here, where
42:32
it is just true that when we're in a marriage and someone, you know, we
42:38
did something stupid and we're in a snag now,
42:42
someone's got to initiate a repair.
42:45
And it's often people don't.
42:47
They're not jumping up and down, raising their hand to go because we're all kind of
42:50
walled up and self protective and in our childhood pattern.
42:53
And
42:54
it's scary and it's like I feel kind of, you know, like, mean.
42:58
And I'm like, no, you go first.
43:00
And you know, all that stuff happens.
43:03
So it is true that whoever is
43:07
more available to just be in the front part of their brain and just take a risk and
43:12
say, hey, I just want to start this process.
43:14
I miss you.
43:15
And there's so many different ways to start.
43:18
That person should go,
43:21
right?
43:22
And
43:23
people, I've noticed over the years that often the more anxiously attached person is
43:29
that person,
43:31
because the more avoidant partner, we're talking about attachment now,
43:36
they tend to withdraw pretty hard.
43:39
And it just isn't in their
43:43
nervous system because they grew up in a family where it was better to go away.
43:48
There was no chance of repair.
43:49
And so it was like, I'm going to disappear and withdraw and just get out of here.
43:55
That person is up against more.
43:59
And so it might be that it's the same person every single time
44:06
going first and saying, hey, can we talk about this?
44:08
Can we, you know, reconnect here?
44:11
And that person, if they're not careful, will resent the other person
44:15
because they'll feel.
44:16
It'll feel unfair.
44:17
They'll be like, well, you need to initiate, too.
44:20
And I think that's just a complete waste of energy.
44:25
If the two of you just get to know each other's nervous systems and agree, like,
44:30
look, you're just better at this.
44:32
Like, I really appreciate that you're kind of the one pulling us out of the swamp.
44:37
And there's genuine appreciation, there's acknowledgement of the differences of how
44:42
we're wired.
44:43
That can really work for a couple
44:46
where actually the person who's just always initiating that's just their jam
44:50
for the team.
44:52
This is my role on the team.
44:54
And there's no resentment here and no bitterness and no unfairness.
44:57
It's just what we both agree this kind of works for us.
45:01
It's problematic when people are expecting it to be mutual and fair and.
45:06
50, 50, and I let it last time.
45:08
Jason Lange: You need to.
45:09
Jayson Gaddis: It's like, don't ask your partner to do something that is, like, almost impossible
45:14
for them to do.
45:16
You know,
45:17
that's kind of dishonoring who they are.
45:21
So this is where getting to know each other and our histories and what we're up
45:25
against in ourselves really matters.
45:28
And so now I would just say there is no kind of rule of thumb.
45:32
It's just whatever works for the two of you
45:35
should be
45:37
the way forward.
45:40
Jason Lange: I love that.
45:41
Just the practicality of what's actually going to bring you back to zero contact,
45:47
because that's where you both actually want to be
45:50
is back into some kind of connection and harmony.
45:54
And if one person that comes a little easier to, what a beautiful thing to offer
45:57
generously of like, yeah, okay, I got this part because I'm sure in other areas of
46:02
relationship you've got other stuff, right?
46:04
And this is the.
46:05
The kind of maturing of.
46:07
I'm.
46:07
I'm happy to give this because, you know, in a way, it is some giving to get, too,
46:11
because I want to get back to connection, Right?
46:13
So, yeah, why wait instead of just stewing on, well, you know, yeah, I've been
46:18
there.
46:19
I've certainly been that guy.
46:22
Okay, man.
46:22
And yeah, last question.
46:23
You know, this might sound familiar to you, but if you could speak to a thousand
46:28
high school boys about love and conflict, what would you tell them?
46:34
Jayson Gaddis: Well,
46:37
I would say
46:39
you are as capable
46:42
of anyone
46:45
to
46:46
develop
46:48
deep, meaningful emotional
46:51
connection,
46:53
and you can have that.
46:55
Don't buy into the stereotypes about your gender
47:00
that boys and men are just not wired this way or can't do this.
47:04
It's just not their thing.
47:06
Don't buy it.
47:07
You know, I just heard something from Richard Reeves that I pissed me off on
47:10
Instagram.
47:12
And he's a kind of a men's work guy.
47:14
Like, although it's more from the sociological perspective.
47:19
He was just telling this guest or this host, like, no, men don't.
47:22
We just.
47:22
We bond by shoulder to shoulder.
47:24
We don't stare into each other's eyes over a matcha latte.
47:27
I was like, I do.
47:29
Jason Lange: Totally.
47:30
Jayson Gaddis: What are you talking about?
47:31
Stop perpetuating these stereotypes because you can't.
47:34
You know,
47:36
that's bs.
47:37
So I would just tell those boys, like, whatever you hear about what boys can and
47:41
can't do in relationship.
47:42
Nope.
47:42
It's just like, you are capable, as capable of girls and women of deep connection.
47:48
It's in your wiring.
47:50
It's in your DNA.
47:51
It goes back hundreds of thousands of years, actually, to look after families and
47:55
children and babies.
47:57
You are as relational.
47:59
You have just been trained to not be potent.
48:03
Jason Lange: Double click, all of that.
48:05
I love that and love that.
48:08
Yeah, you're speaking to that because, yeah, I have some of my things with some of
48:12
the guys representing out there in the mainstream right now where it's like, well,
48:15
yeah, sometimes you're confusing a cultural thing with maybe just where you haven't
48:19
gone yet, because I know plenty of men who can go there lovingly,
48:25
willingly, without much resistance, and I know.
48:29
I fucking love it.
48:30
So imagine there's other men that do, too.
48:34
Well, amazing.
48:35
Jayson, thank you so much for being here and your time.
48:40
Where can people keep up with you and find out more about your work and getting to
48:44
zero?
48:45
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, thanks, man.
48:47
JaysonGaddis.com, that's Jayson with a Y.
48:49
Probably the best place.
48:51
It's the same on Instagram or LinkedIn.
48:53
And my wife and I do a couples podcast for the couples of the group that are
48:59
listening that I think is really good.
49:02
Jason Lange: So,
49:03
yeah,
49:05
fantastic.
49:06
I'll put all this in the show notes.
49:07
And once again, thank you so much, man, for trailblazing in this space and being one
49:13
of the men I look up to in terms of how you're living your life and leading family
49:17
and being very present in all of it.
49:18
It's really inspiring.
49:20
Thank you much, man.
49:21
Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, thanks, Jason.
49:22
And thanks for
49:24
how you hold the interview here.
49:26
You know, it's really sweet to know how much you've dug into the book and you
49:31
obviously care a lot about your guests and the men you work with and.
49:35
Yeah, thanks.
49:36
Jason Lange: Yeah, my pleasure.
49:38
All right, till next time, everybody.