Latest / Field Notes: Creator-led Growth Podcast / Where Influencer Marketing, UGC & Paid Media Collide, with Cody Plofker of Jones Road Beauty

Transcript

Where Influencer Marketing, UGC & Paid Media Collide, with Cody Plofker of Jones Road Beauty · Field Notes: Creator-led Growth Podcast

• speaker-0: Welcome to Field Notes, the operators podcast for brand, creator, and growth. This is the influencer marketing podcast for people actually doing the work. Real strategies, real examples, and the parts the other shows simply leave out. Welcome everyone to Field Notes in Practice, which is a new format, a new sister to the Field Notes itself. I'm Lily, I'm the founder and CEO of Superbloom, an influencer marketing agency, and I will toss it to Sarah. speaker-1: Sweet. Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm head of strategy here at Superaffiliate. in practice is our version of Field Notes that you already know and love, but we get to focus in on one brand and really get into the nitty-gritty, which our first brand is Cody at John Zore Beauty. So excited to have you. speaker-2: I'm excited to be here. Excited to to chat and learn from you guys today. Yeah. speaker-0: We're also just gonna be pestering you. the topic today is the it's no small topic. It is the great convergence of UGC influencer and paid media. obviously, you know, Superbloom is supporting Jones Row Beauty's program, but Cody, I learned ever I, you know, I learned something from you every time we're meeting. I think you guys have such an interesting and ref and refreshing approach to influencer and how it just like is cohesive across the entire organization at Jones Row Beauty. So Over the next thirty minutes or so we will, you know, uncover as much as you're willing to share. speaker-2: Happy to share. But yeah, we're we've also been a a a a a huge help and have learned a ton. And we're I don't wanna pretend like we have it all figured out. Like we ha we have a good thing going. We obviously wanna wanna scale it, but yeah. Well also speaker-0: that is like constantly changing and evolving. Like speaker-1: Totally. speaker-0: every day's different. Every quarter's different. So Sarah, go ahead and take it away with our first question. We'll get right into it. speaker-1: Yeah, sure. I think we really want to kick things off with what does Jones Road Beauty program look like today? Like how really are UGC influencer and paid media currently converging for you guys? Like Lily said, I know she's been helping a lot on on the program too, but you guys kind of have a lot of different things going. speaker-2: Yes. So let's see. So I'm trying to I think shared definitions are always good because I feel like everybody has different definitions. So I'm gonna try to use Lily's definition. So UGC is like obviously for us, we have UGC with like creators that are like not influencers. Like we we we handle that separately and internally, but like we we do UGC with Super Loom, which is essentially partnership ads. It's it is when a creator is is it has a slightly larger following where you're running the ads through their account, Well, they are not posting. So I guess a lot of people call that dark posting, but they're you're just running it as an ad. And so that's one component and pretty big part of our program. It's definitely one of the things that performs best in our meta account. So we really lean into that. And then you have, I guess, you know, what we'll call our organic, and that's where creators are posting. You a lot of people call that like paid influence or something that, where creators are posting. But Superbloom does a great job of getting rights to all of that. And so that is essentially all launched in our ad account as a partnership ad as well. So those are the biggest ones and then Obviously we have internally we do seating. So we just kind of do gifting programs and things like that. And sometimes we get content that we can run, you know, just things were tagged in organically and we'll request rights. or sometimes, you know, that'll turn into affiliate stuff, or we will then, you know, try to take those people and kind of do do deals with them as well. speaker-0: Yeah, if you're like the a a dream client in a way that you understand the depth and opportunity within the creator economy where it's like you can be working with, you know, all the the performance creative or UGC approach that we are helping you build is with creators that have hundreds of thousands of followers and like maybe millions of followers. and I think that you know there's there's kind of two ways to approach UGC. It is those like dedicated UGC creators, you know, that may have 200 followers on Instagram, but they can follow a script to a T and you run. The benefit is like they create content that you run from the brands handle. The benefit to working with an influencer in a UGC capacity is, you know, it's a little bit more cost and a more cost efficient way to work with the influencer, but you can also leverage their audiences because is that's a big focus for you guys in like the influencer UGC realm too, is new audience testing, right? speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. And that that's where I think we've seen like we're seeing, and it's you know, it's pretty equal, but like probably better performance of people that host on there. So organic plus paid. especially with like larger, yeah, we're definitely taking some bigger swings. We haven't taken any gigantic ones yet, but definitely there's more learnings that like meta has at like the the page level of people that have big audiences. And so we're we find that we're able to like reach new audiences and then scale them. harder if somebody not always, but if somebody has like a bigger following. So definitely taking some bigger swings there. Yeah. You just you're borrowing their credibility, but you're also borrowing kind of their data that Meta has on them. speaker-0: Right. It's so and I think it's really important to be utilizing partnership ads specifically. And like if your paid media team or for performance marketing team doesn't necessarily understand that landscape, then it's I think imp in order to stay relevant this year, it's imperative that either you work with an agency that understands that or your team kind of dips into it and is fully leveraging influencer and creator content in the ways that you can. I feel like we just went 10 steps ahead because we're yet. Going back, so when these channels converge, so influencer, UGC, paid media, all of that, like what actually changes first? And this I think actually predates Superbloom, like you guys working with us. so what changes first? Like the brief, the budget, or the way success is measured, like what like why why? What changes first? Like what's kind of the inflection point. that a business could maybe identify for themselves or like, maybe we should actually be converging these channels. speaker-2: That's a good question. yeah, I I guess like the strategy of like how you're using influencers or creators, because it's not just one channel, you know, it's not you're obviously using it across paid media. Obviously, there's stuff we've done with organic social and you know, these creators as well. I mean, I mean, we're doing it, you know, we're doing a a product launch with somebody. Like it's kind of across everybody. So it's just leaning into creator and figuring out how you can kind of use it everywhere. I I do want in the past, we had Kind of like our growth team was more responsible for getting the style of content and they're still involved, but I think trying to make it more clear and and like we had our influence team that was like on our brand team and it was a little bit more like they're just gonna handle seating, but it almost felt like they were doing other people's like jobs if they were like doing these whitelisting deals. Cause like and so now it's like, hey, if it has to do with creator, it goes to our influencer team. And one of their core KPIs is. is seeding. One of their core KPIs is is growing the paid program. And then one of their core KPIs is actually delivering whitelisting partners because it's this program is just so inter intertwined together between, you know, organic and and paid. And so I try to be really mindful of how we set up our org and who reports to who, but also just like not be political about it. But I know that's a challenge in a lot of orgs is getting what you need from a team that's not directly under you. speaker-0: Yeah. And I'm like personally very passionate about adequate staffing. Which like if you can't afford a full team, that's where an agency can come into place. But Cody, I also know that you're actively hiring a director role for the influencer team as well. So if you're haven't seen that on LinkedIn, guys, go find Yeah, anyone listening. speaker-2: Yeah, so somebody is listening. We have zero the the funny part is we have zero people in our influencer department currently and so looking to rebuild it always will continue working with Superblue, but there's still a ton that you know that we need to do internally and speaker-0: Cohesion for cohesion. Like any agency needs like a point person to bring that kind of like cohesion. Obviously, like we love getting under the hood and getting into the weeds with brands, but that's a very exciting role. So anyway. speaker-2: That's like that's part of the challenge now too, is like there's not one person who owns even our relationship with you guys. So there's some stuff I'm doing and there's some stuff pilot like and it's it's not always what we should like. We could also do a better job with partners if it was like one, you know, I think you just have to have one person or department who's like owning something. speaker-0: Yeah, totally true. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Sweet. Well go ahead, Sarah. speaker-1: I I almost feel like Lily we we should skip ahead of question 'cause I feel like we're kind of like on a roll with yeah, go for it. speaker-0: I was gonna ask the so the when it comes to because like you just spoke to like the inflection point. So when you're when a brand is like eager to work with creators, like there are multiple different you know, there's so many comprehensive ways that you can partner with influencers. As a CEO of a company though, that's taking budget for creators seriously, what advice do you have for other CEOs who don't have or who who just like don't see the vision of how helpful influencer marketing can be? Cause like Even just speaking from my perspective, like we get on new business calls. I mean, we love re-educating and kind of demystifying and debunking these preconceived notions around influencer. It's my favorite challenge. but you're unique, Cody. You're a CEO that gets it. so what advice do you have for maybe other CEOs or senior leadership that, you know, that don't necessarily see this vision and this kind of impact that creator can have? speaker-2: Yeah. And so this is where like I always want to say because I don't want it to be like I'm talking down to anybody. Like no, I had to learn something like we were late and I think we are actually underinvested in creator, right? And we were we had too much of our budget and spend on TV, right? And like you just as a CEO and CMO, you need to know the the shifts and the trends of culture and platforms and how people are consuming media and who they trust. And it's it sh it it shouldn't be a wake-up call to anybody like creators are who people trust. Legacy media is at an all-time low in viewership. Legacy institutions are at an all-time low in in in reach. Obviously, like there's a new creator brand that's launching every day. It's like people trust creators. It's so much easier to to trust and engage with and relate to a creator. We're very much in the creator economy. So you should be making sure that you're you're playing in that. And again, we're late to it. And so that's the shift. There's this really good consumer trends report that goes around annually and it has some really good creator data. So I think number one is there. Number two is like, you know, really understanding the strategy and the landscape. Like watch, you know, Colin and Semir's YouTube channel, just like get to know creators, how they work, how they think, get to know obviously who's who are the important creators in your in your space. and then think about and then understand it's not just one thing, it's not just paid influencer marketing or events. It's it's a lot of things. Figure out is it a brand or performance thing? You know, how are you gonna kind of measure the channel is really important. And then one of the big mistakes that we made is like dabbling, like You know, when when doing this, it's not going to work from the beginning. You kind of have to devote six months and a certain budget to kind of doing it and cracking it. Yeah. Cause in the in the past we tried. We did paid YouTube influencer work and we cut it after two months and we weren't spending enough. And like one big creator would like eat up 50% of our budget. And it's like you can't test. So you kind of have to be like, Hey, I'm going to allocate this over six months. It's also it's a harder channel to measure, but I'm going to allocate this and I'm going to crack it and I'm not going to give up after a month or two. If the performance isn't what want. But there's times where you want to. It's a as a CEO or a CMO or CFO, you're like, this is we're losing money on this. Or yeah. But it takes time and you learn and you test. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I mean talking about talking about having time to learn and test and budget to do all that stuff, I guess like flipping the question a little bit too, because I'm curious on your perspective as a CEO. We have a lot of people that watch, you know, these brands in bloom and now field notes that are on in the influencer space and are sometimes not as fortunate to work with a CEO that really actually does get it in terms of and I'm not even just talking budget spend, I'm talking time spend, like actually dedicating an employee or an agency or a resource. To influencer, do you have advice for those people and like what type of KPIs they can bring to their team or like things with very little time and investment? speaker-0: Yeah. How do we convince how do you convince a CEO to say to say yes at something new? speaker-2: There's not a CEO out there who doesn't want to make more money and grow and do it more profitably. So I think, you know, if there is some data that's presented as, hey, I think this is what we should be doing, right? This is this channel is performing, but we're only spending a certain amount. And like hopefully you can get them to agree on a budget and like a hypothesis and like a test and be like, all right, let's let's go try this. Like, and I think a lot of times. Teams don't do that and a lot of strategies are like top down. But if you feel comfortable and there's something that's working and you're like, hey, I need more budget, you just have to know how they care about it. And you can't just be like, I need more budget or I need more people on my team. And it's like, show me that. Cause I have, I have in any given day, I have eight hours of meetings of people that are asking for more, more money and more time and more people. So it's like just you have to, you have to use data to show that and then kind of get them to agree to it. speaker-0: We just got a a really good question from someone in the audience, asking like when you say don't give up or like even piggybacking and adding to this question, when you say like the show the proof, show like base base your argument arguments and in data and analytics and performance so far, like what metrics show you that influencer marketing is beginning to work? speaker-1: Especially in the early stages. Yeah. speaker-2: I guess it depends right because influencer can be everything. It it depends what. Like we primarily care about performance, not to say we can't do brand, but like we have much more money to dedicate to something if it's gonna be, you know, we're gonna have some type of return on ad spend. So I mean that's mainly it we're looking at return on ad spend, we're looking at CPA. we are obviously taking the content and putting that into meta and tr measuring that differently. So it's like you have to figure out what your goals are, what you care about. But generally I and an influencers are harder channel to measure because not everyone's gonna use the the code, not everyone's gonna click. So like there does seem there there needs to be a case. You don't have to be like, I know this is the exact return I spend, but it's like, hey, we here is the data that we have and I think or here's some some data that sorts it's actually doing better than that over time. But it you just gotta know what your what your your goals are and what your KPIs are. speaker-0: And I would even say too, like give yourself multiple different goals. Give yourself a a CPM goal, a CPA goal, a ROAS goal, a REACH goal, an EMV goal. Like when you're test when you're creating an influencer program for the first time, like Cody, I remember when we kicked off last summer, it was like it's gonna take three months to see a positive ROAS. And it was almost like clockwork that that happened. And obviously with holiday, it ebbs and it flows. And you also have to remember that goals ebb and flow with seasonality, with product with certain products that are are being spoken, like that influencers are speaking about. But The more there are so many you can now evaluate sentiment. You can now like there are so many different complexities to inf influence her that, you know, a program like we're speaking, like our this is a ROAS program like that we're building for Jones Reb Beauty. But there are some brands where that's just gonna be harder because your AOV is lower. So maybe it's more CPA based, or maybe it's more earned media value, or maybe it's more social growth. Like there's so as we're I think what we're kind of really making obvious in this conversation is there's so many different ways to leverage influencer and to converge them across channels. And you just have to be flexible with yourself and make sure your leadership also knows that too. speaker-2: Yeah, because like we we care and maybe not. Like I think I should shift more budget in our total marketing to like brand. But like when we first started internally with some of my paid stuff, we were really looking at like EMV and impressions. And I was like, we weren't spending that yeah, but I was like, we weren't spending that much. And I was like, I have a hard time justifying going from this budget to doubling it based on impressions. Like, what is that doing for us? And and so it's we're able to scale it much faster because we we are able to see our return on ad spend, but we know there still is a a brand lift. We still are reaching new audiences. We still are, you know, getting into people's consideration sets because of this creator stuff. So we're able to maybe run it less efficient than we would have like a direct performance channel. But you just got to know how you how your company wants to look at it. speaker-0: Totally. And I think one thing that also ties to performance is good creative. 'cause that really is at the core of it. So Sarah, I you've got a good question for good creative here too. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. So I mean, bringing it back to all the the convergence piece of UGC to paid media, what like I mean, now influencers expected to perform like ads, which is something that's like kind of new in this space for people like Lily and I that have been doing this for a decade each now is pretty crazy. So like what are you and your team really looking for to figure out like what's actually going to perform as an ad versus just like an influencer post? speaker-2: Good question. There's definitely a difference, but I'm finding that surprisingly so, like there's less of a difference between organic and paid. We see this on like the social side, like organic social, some stuff that's that because again, as algorithms change and and platforms change, there's less of a difference with that. And so same thing on influencer side. And you know, one thing is just it's just the I mean, you we're using a channel like this for people's credibility and audience and trust. And so the authenticity has to come across. And obviously it is paid. But if somebody actually loves a product and brand, like that's the most important. do people, do they have credibility in this space? They don't have to be a beauty creator for us, but like, are people going to trust them and and do they have your audience? And then, like, yeah, do they know good content? Do they know, you know, how to some people are good converters. They just know what to say or they say it in such a believable way. what we found is like things have to have some type of a story. They they can't just be, I love this product. Like you have to show it visually. It has to be an authentic endorsement, but there has to be something where there's some story that because you're competing with attention on social and there has to be a way to to get and keep people's attention as well. speaker-0: I would even try to say too, like the briefing that we have the the different versions of briefs that we have gone through as in a in our partnership over the last eight months has been has been wild. because we I think we started, and this is the case for a lot of brands where you you get the brief from growth or you get the brief from brand and then the influencer team just kind of has to copy and paste and share it. But I think when it comes to and we have a question in here from my girl, when When it comes to briefing these different channels, like how are you thinking about that briefing process? Like, are there any key learnings with balancing a very tailored brief or paid performance versus remaining authentic to the influencer's personal video style? Like, because I think in the last in the over the past few months, like we've seen performance and content get better because we changed our briefing style and changed our briefing approach a little bit, if you want to speak to that. speaker-2: I do think briefs are one of the biggest levers. Like one thing that I think we can do more is like almost like strict A B testing on briefs, where I think we'll change things like monthly, but almost like, hey, we're gonna give half of this cohort this month this brief, half the other one, like and just like have like a hypothesis and just always be iterating. Like the brief is like one of the most important things. and so just just continually kind of testing things. no, there's probably more similarities and differences. Obviously, like a hook is maybe more important on paid. Versus if it's like story and somebody's talking to a file. So like there are there are some differences that are like channel level that are different. but like I think in general working with creators, you want to give them the strategy up front. And then you have to give them the the freedom and the flexibility to create. And I think that is I I don't where where we have not had success in the past doing it internally is like these are the scripts you have to hit. These are the lines. speaker-0: Yeah. I think like you were actually one of the very first brand like I I've always like been very transparent with influencers about what the goal of this program is. It's it's a C a certain CPA, a certain ROAS, because I often use goals to anchor our negotiations. It's like you're way too expensive. Like you're not gonna hit this CPA target. But one thing that Jones that I really appreciated from from your briefs was also just like creative goals. Like the goal of this is for to have your content feel this, this, this, this, this way. And that was like the second or third page in the brief. and that's just like a human to human relation, like such a relationship lever. but I would say when it comes to, you know, briefing an influencer, it's like giving them talking points, you can give them some sample hooks, but hooks are s are very unique to UGC specifically. So some of these like it's also, I think too, Cody, what we've been doing with the creators that are a larger spend, a larger investment, give them the hooks you want them to say and then let them choose the talking points. And that's been working really well for us because there's a little bit more risk in a $15,000, $20,000, $35,000 investment. So you want to make sure that you're, you know, setting the influence up for success and how you're briefing them. speaker-2: Yes, yeah, definitely. And it's it's it's hard because you don't know what's going to perform. Like we have some winners, and I wouldn't have thought they would have performed at all. Like they're like straightforward, but like, you know, they've they've just done amazingly well. And then there's some stuff you see, and you're like, I can't wait to test this. I love it. And it it doesn't perform. So it's it's kind of hard because like you get stuff back and you wanna provide all this feedback, but like you also don't know. And so you kind of have to test. And I think that's where just having the the budget flexibility to be like, okay, like. It's a portfolio. Not all of them are gonna work, but like we think enough of them are going to work and we we we have enough humility to know that we're not gonna be able to predict which ones. speaker-1: Yeah, I love that you said that because I feel like everyone expects it to work right off the bat and they're like, well, I'm spending X amount of money. It should work. It should work. And it's like, that's just unfortunately not always not always the case. We'd all be millionaires if that was the case. You know? So but I guess like kind of sticking to that same topic, what are the most common mistakes that you're seeing brands make when they're trying to integrate creators into their paid media strategy? Since this is kind of like a new muscle a lot of brands are starting to flex. speaker-2: That's a good question. over briefing is one. There there's all I'm just trying to think of all the mistakes I've made. Yeah. Over briefing is one. There's some speaker-1: Marketing is full of mistakes. Like that's kind of the point. speaker-2: And they're expensive. And they're expensive. speaker-0: Well in my influencer is built off of mistakes. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Like the entire channel is built off of like let's test this and let's be really bad at it until we're really good at it. And isn't that everything? Isn't that speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And everything. As long as you're reporting on it and seeing it on the other end and actually learning from it, that's what it's all about. And it's changes per brand and per industry, I feel like all the time. speaker-0: I think Cody, what you would you would agree with me, like the biggest mistake, and it's our our kind of a our strategy and approach as an agency is like every organic influencer we work with, as you mentioned, Cody, they get you get the brand is gonna get 30 days paid rights to it. You better run that ad. I think the biggest mistake is brands don't are there's not enough timeliness to like the influencer is posted organically within 24 hours, if not faster, you should also have that same creative up as an ad. That's really hard to do. But I consider it a mistake. I'm not pointing fingers, but I might be speaker-1: question for you on that, Lily, because I know we get asked this question all the time on like running and testing ads. What do you like in the spirit of timeliness, like what is the usual extent that you're looking to test an ad? Is it thirty days? Is it sixty days? Is it ninety days? Is it fifteen days? speaker-0: I mean Cody, I feel like at minimum it's usually thirty. we we always start high. Start high. That's like Mc speaker-2: That's a mistake though. It's like starting with 90 days rights. It's like start with as low of rights as you want to go because most contents if you're if your program is crushing it, your three out of ten ads are gonna work. Three out of ten creators are gonna work. So I'd rather start lower and then just go to somebody and be like, Hey, this performs. I I think I think that's a a small, a small mistake of thinking. Not negotiating. I mean you guys are really good at negotiating, but just like some of the prices that that people will get from the beginning are are crazy. So You have to negotiate and and just not testing enough. Like this was I think where our program never got off the ground before is like we would test a few people and we didn't have budget for larger swings and and we didn't have enough to really test. And you just have to have enough budget to test where you can have multiple creators and you're not just kind of riding on all one person. speaker-1: Yeah. That kind of addresses sorry. speaker-0: Go for it. I just have one thing to add on to what Cody was saying. Yeah. that as the influencer marketer on this call, you know, if you book them for 15 days because that's how you can get free paid, you know, the paid usage component for free, pre negotiate what the rate would be for 30 days because you're already in an active negotiation with the influencer. So pre negotiate what an extension cost could be. Go ahead, Sarah. speaker-1: Yeah. No, that that was a great add-on actually. But it kind of leans into we did get a question earlier on too that I feel like this is a perfect conversation for is what volume of different creators do you think is enough to prove the hypothes the hypothesis to continue to invest? speaker-2: It's gonna it's gonna depend. I g I think everybody's budget. Are we talking j are we talking like organic influencer or just like partnership ads? speaker-1: I would say partnership ads. It sounded like you said like initially like three of ten are going to work, but you know, I also know you're testing different markets and customers too. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you need at least ten. I think at least, you know, ten. And again, that those can be various sizes and hopefully your budget's big enough where you're not just testing, you know, small micros. Hopefully you're you have enough where like two or three them could be slightly larger. Because I think that should be one. But yeah, I think I think you need at least ten ongo, you know, ongoing to work with. It's it's really hard to be like, Hey, I'm gonna pick three people and speaker-0: Yeah. And if you do 10, like maybe it's three influencers that are smaller than a thousand followers and then two influencers that are between twenty and fifty. Like give yourself a range to just kind of soft launch and start soft testing. I know that we are at the 30 minute mark, but we started a little late. So we'll do one more, one more question, maybe two. We'll see. We'll check the vibe. looking ahead to 2026, what capabilities, Cody, will be the strongest? what wow. What capabilities will the strongest creator programs need to build now in order to scale efficiently? So what should what should brands be doing in January and February in order to set themselves up for a successful convergence of these channels this year? Besides obviously like committing to a test. speaker-2: Yeah, you got get your just your team aligned, whether that's your CMO or CEO or head of growth, just aligned on like how you're going to use creators across your company. make sure you have the right org structure and team. So there's not going to be like so people will will be on the same page and there's not going to be like, you know, it'll just be clear roles and responsibilities. And then, you know, it's just it takes a lot of, it's not like paid media where you just scale it right away. Like you're you're building a roster and you're kind of just building the muscles. And so the earlier you start, the The better you're gonna be in six months, where you know, in the beginning you have no creators that are on your roster for a new launch. And then you slowly get one winner and two, and you kind of just put them to the side, you nurture them, and now you kind of are always testing new people, but you have these people that you know are just like tried and true performers, you can put them on long-term deals. So it's it's a lot of trial and and error, but there's a lot of it, it just takes time. So you the sooner you start, the better. speaker-0: Sooner to start the better. And there's obviously resources like field notes, like you know, there's agencies, there's individuals, like there's so many resources out there to make you feel more confident in testing. So just get started. But I think the whole the whole point of this conversation is think bigger and think convergence and think omnichannel, and you'll kind of have an unshakable program. speaker-2: So one thing I like to do is, and this is just like you didn't ask me to do this, it's not a plug, but just in general, when starting a new program, I want to work with somebody and I'm happy to pay more for it that has done it before, that's an expert in it to learn from them. And so like I don't want to launch podcasts and just like hire somebody podcasts and like trust them. Like I want to talk to my friends, I want to get a really good agency recommendation and like I'll be clear with that agency from the beginning. Like, hey, if this works, we're gonna eventually bring it internally. But like I want to learn as much and like make sure though. the agency is willing to also share with you and they're not going to gatekeep. that's I think something that can speed up the it can lessen the mistakes. speaker-1: Yes. That's such a good call. Lily and I were just at Creator Economy Live last week and actually on Lily's panel, almost everyone across the board agreed that was something that they needed to do. Was they should have hired an agency or a professional earlier to help them like, you know, like momentum bring everything. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: success educate an internal team and you know if you want to if you want to work with drones or beauty and superbloom there's a job there's a jd out there for you there is amazing Cody well thank you so much for the time speaker-2: I'll tell you, it's fun. speaker-0: and this was our first field notes in practice we'll do it every other month and then the February what month are we what year are we the February field notes we will be announcing soon as well so everybody stay tuned speaker-1: Yay, cool. speaker-2: Awesome. Thanks guys. speaker-0: Thank you. Bye everyone.