Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Transform Your Health Through Boosting Your Second Brain with Dr Jason Hawrelak

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Transform Your Health Through Boosting Your Second Brain with Dr Jason Hawrelak · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ecal transplant studies are cool because they can show these
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: really quid changes. But we don't need fecal transplants to
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: change the microbiome, you know, getting in nature, eating the
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: right food for medicine, and to use lots of prebodis
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to help speed that process along too. There's so much
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: we can do that don't the big of a fecal transplant.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Everyone. Before we get into this week's podcast, we got
• 0:30
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• 0:34
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• 0:37
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• 0:56
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• 0:59
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• 1:02
  Speaker 2: anything episode. So all you gotta do if you got
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: a question that we want me to cover is just
• 1:08
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• 1:13
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• 1:19
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• 1:21
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• 1:26
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• 1:28
  Speaker 2: about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast,
• 1:30
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• 1:33
  Speaker 2: and just give us some feedback and we will use
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: you now. I hover the podcast, Jason, horrible act. Hopefully
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't murder your surname there. Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I think you know.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: No, it was good, So may we both presented. You
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: wouldn't see me present because you were in Italy and
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: you did a virtual but present at the Acronum conference.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: And I've seen you bunching around a whole eap of
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  Speaker 2: different comforts as your utraine clinicians, mostly around the whole
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: got microbiome. But just give our listeners a sense of
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: your background and how you really got into the microbiome
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: and what you do right now.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, now, thank you. I studied natropathic medicine naturopothy
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  Speaker 1: in Australia, Sorted ninety six mission ninety nine and one
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: of the last terms of my four year undergrad course,
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  Speaker 1: there was a lectury of my mind when our professors
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: are on dyspouses and how disposus was causing ch chronic disease.
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  Speaker 1: This was back in nineteen ninety nine. Is to give
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  Speaker 1: some against some context around this, because this has been
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  Speaker 1: discussed in the naturopathic struggles for a long time, even
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  Speaker 1: though we didn't nessarily have the same science as we
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: do now in the same understanding, but there's a certainly
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  Speaker 1: understanding of altered microbiome causing disease. That's been part of
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  Speaker 1: natropathic philosophy. For god, there's some writers talking about the
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  Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds again giving some context on that. So
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  Speaker 1: it's long been part of naturalathic thinking. It's just that
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  Speaker 1: now with the boom and science, we can just see
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  Speaker 1: all these different interactions and see what microps are doing,
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  Speaker 1: whether we could not see in the past. Anyway, this
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  Speaker 1: lecture was totally inspiring to me, so I went up
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  Speaker 1: to write after and said, hey, you know, I just
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: went to finish and I was like, can I do
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  Speaker 1: my honors agree in this in this area of dys biosis,
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  Speaker 1: And then we got together and we did, and we
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  Speaker 1: tried to pick a disease that was at that point
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  Speaker 1: in time shown to have a dis body element, and
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  Speaker 1: that was Irrito boal syndrome. You know, if you look
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  Speaker 1: at the diseases that even in the nineties we knew
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  Speaker 1: altered microbiome composition were positive or specifically you know, played
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: a key role. In IBS was like the poster child
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  Speaker 1: at that point. There's also you know, in flowery biole
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  Speaker 1: disease and a couple others, but i'd defy, yeah, that's right. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that was another option. But we chose IBS because it
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  Speaker 1: really was not being handled very well by connition medicine
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  Speaker 1: and arty still isn't. And we're like, okay, well let's
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  Speaker 1: focus on that. So I did my honors degree looking
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  Speaker 1: at how probotics in probodics and herbs would modify the
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  Speaker 1: microbiome in patients with IBS, and then we followed up
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  Speaker 1: with my PhD after that points. So you know, spending
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  Speaker 1: this is now nearly twenty five years since that started.
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  Speaker 1: My sort of honors thesis. Literaty Review was back in
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  Speaker 1: like probably December of twenty nineteen, sorry, nineteen ninety nine.
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  Speaker 1: Delving into the microbiome and how could we could alter
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  Speaker 1: the composition of the microbiome with through dietary changes, through prebodics,
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  Speaker 1: her medicines, and then also probotics. And since then, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I did my PhD in that area, I've been teaching.
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  Speaker 1: Now I focus on teaching other clinicians to become what
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  Speaker 1: we call, you know, microbiome clinicians or micro literate clinicians,
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  Speaker 1: because it's still an area that is barely touched on
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  Speaker 1: in the training of conventional health professionals. But even in
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  Speaker 1: I would say natural pass like it makes up a
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  Speaker 1: much more bigger percentage, but it's still by time when
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  Speaker 1: people graduate, they're still lacking a lot of details. I've
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  Speaker 1: had to actually implant this in practice, how to interpret
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  Speaker 1: stool tests, et cetera, how to make changes based on
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  Speaker 1: a microbiome analysis for example, or even people from a
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  Speaker 1: dietetic background, nutrition background. It's sa missing that kind of data.
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  Speaker 1: So I really trying to upskill Clindians to move into
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  Speaker 1: that space and move into us the new understanding of
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  Speaker 1: the human body or that microrobes are key elements we
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  Speaker 1: can't just ignore like we used to do in the
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  Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and before that, you know, you look back
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: at that time and even then called it the microflora
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  Speaker 1: back then, but the microflora researchers were like saying, this
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  Speaker 1: is important. These microbes are important. We can't just keep
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  Speaker 1: ignoring their existence or keep taking a course at antibotics
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  Speaker 1: and not thinking it has some long term consequence. But
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  Speaker 1: it's just been amazing to see again over the last
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  Speaker 1: twenty five years, how that has blown up so dramatically,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and that there's many people out there who
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  Speaker 1: are now aware of microbiam and it's importance who you
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  Speaker 1: know that this is not a talking point besides in
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  Speaker 1: small circles, you know, twenty some years ago. So during
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  Speaker 1: that time, I still saw patients and I still see
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  Speaker 1: patients now because for me, and I've talked to the
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  Speaker 1: universities obviously the University of Tasmania for a decade and
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  Speaker 1: their evidence based medicine course. Now I teach at University
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  Speaker 1: of Western States a natropathic gastroent trology kind of units
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  Speaker 1: in their master's degree there, and I have you know,
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  Speaker 1: to the research and have I've happened to reasoningly PAHD
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  Speaker 1: students working ad too so it's been that to me,
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  Speaker 1: that that lovely combination of of academia, education and patients,
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  Speaker 1: and I think they feed into eature it really well. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because when I'm like reading up to prepare for a
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  Speaker 1: new lecture, I'm keeping up to day with all the
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  Speaker 1: new research that's been done. Then I can try that
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  Speaker 1: out of my patients does actually work in the real
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  Speaker 1: life or with those with more patients we have to do.
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  Speaker 1: Then I can teach that to clinicians like obscure will
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  Speaker 1: make get better results with their patients too. So I
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  Speaker 1: think it's been a great circle in that way.
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  Speaker 2: It's interesting because when you look at what the evidences
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  Speaker 2: is that new research often takes about a decade or
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  Speaker 2: more to get into frontline medicine. Why is there such
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  Speaker 2: Have you any idea about why there is such a
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  Speaker 2: delay in that.
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  Speaker 1: Preconceived biases the lack of curiosity amongst many I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I would say clinicians like I find this is a
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  Speaker 1: sad state, and not honestly in my field, but in
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  Speaker 1: other other fields where clicians might be we might be
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  Speaker 1: co managing a patient with you know, a all sort
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  Speaker 1: of clidius or something, let's say, or a crones of
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  Speaker 1: these that have been like not totally non responsive to
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  Speaker 1: commission medicines. They work with me, we work on diet
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  Speaker 1: and work in microbomb modification, and we get crones of
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  Speaker 1: these in remission, and the physician to me would be like,
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  Speaker 1: what the hell have you done? We've tried all these
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  Speaker 1: drugs for years and nothing's work. You've done something, but
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  Speaker 1: that's not been the typical response. It's like, okay, great,
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  Speaker 1: move on, and they've got no interest in knowing why.
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  Speaker 1: What they've done. Differently, that's created is positive change. And
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  Speaker 1: I've seen that quite commonly in the clinical field in
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  Speaker 1: terms of taking on the lack of desire to take
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  Speaker 1: on new information or keep learning it. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: we have having four standards for this and in the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: health professionals to help ensure that happens to a certain degree.
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  Speaker 1: But you can kind of he can choose that as well.
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  Speaker 1: And if you have no nutrition interest or no nutrition
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  Speaker 1: in microbiome, you're not going to go to any CPE
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: events that train you up in those areas of the
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  Speaker 1: sticking your kind of lane. But even in academia, I
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  Speaker 1: think it's it can be. I give the example of
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: of you know, I worked at University of test Many
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  Speaker 1: for ten years, and you know, my PhD was in
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  Speaker 1: you know, area probotics and micro bond molteration, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: there was so little of that in this sort of
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  Speaker 1: pharmacy course there. Like I had my own sort of
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  Speaker 1: you know, Evans based company medicine program, which was a
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  Speaker 1: post grad course that we had a different kind of
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: student base. But for me, it was like I just
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  Speaker 1: felt like a very underutilized resource that I should be.
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  Speaker 1: You're expounding the wonders of microboond science to the generation
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: every generation pharmacy students, and then how we should use
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: in provoducts and practice and the evidence basic providucts, et cetera.
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  Speaker 1: But you know, we only had a couple of hours
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  Speaker 1: per for your student to actually get there any of
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  Speaker 1: that information in, you know, And I think that that's
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  Speaker 1: not on call.
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  Speaker 2: That they comes to the miniature issue, isn't it. And
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  Speaker 2: I mean there's a certain amount I find as a
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: bystander who it goes to lots of different conferences. I
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: talk at conferences there is a bit of a looking
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: down the nose from traditional medicine at naturopathic medicine. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and thinking it's woo woo stuff. But there is, as
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  Speaker 2: you taught and evidence being complementary medicine course at a
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: university right And for me, it's like, if you've got
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  Speaker 2: anything that is originating in the gut and will explore
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  Speaker 2: the huge amount of diseases and both physical and mental
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: that have origins or at least contributing factors from the gut,
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  Speaker 2: why would you go to a GP who gets no
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: nutritional training or maybe two weeks at best, and gets
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: no training on the microbiome whatsoever. And you know, are
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: not incentivized to do ongoing learning for this. I mean
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: there are a bunch of doctors who do the ones
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: who are at the active conference. You know, there's a
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of bunch of doctors there when we be there.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: But your traditional GP or the traditional medical system is
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: really not well equipped for diseases that have a gastro
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: intestinal origin, of which we are seeing more and more
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: right now. I think my eyes got opened to this
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: area a big time. It would have been a decade
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: or maybe a little bit more ago I saw Professor
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Thomas Barrodi. You will be very aware of runs the
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Center for Digestive Diseases in Sydney.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like the world trendsetter in fecal transplant.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So so just tell our listeners actually that you
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: can tell that story about what the kind of early
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: facal trend plant stuff was showing for things like ceed
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: of facil and other stuff. Just give our listeners a
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: bit of a sense of that.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean not my probably our take on that
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: would be obviously nowhere near as detailed to some like
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: like doctor Bordie, who's like the driver of that. But
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  Speaker 1: I do think that you know, we have a condition
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: that seed of ficil or clusterdy or use the facility
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: superfection that happens not uncommonly after a course of antibotics.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Some antobotics have higher risk not uncommonly after going into
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: the hospital settings, because it turns out that cediff wares
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: everywhere throughout hospitals, and that people are given anobotics often
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: in hospital and that combination is particularly bad and because
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: of the fact that antabotics are the driver of the condition. Essentially,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: antabotics that cause massive microbiome disruption allow the seedf to
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: actually grow and thrive in the environment. Then people can
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: get immensely unwealth from you know, modely moderate symptoms like
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: you know, diarrhea and discomforts are actually dying. It can
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: be very severe infection, and its success rate with treating
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: with more antibiotics is not great.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Because like you know, that was very kind of you,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: jes what he said. Not great. It's pretty pathetic.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Really.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: The conventional medical treatment of seed def is pesper Yeah.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: And then then they're like, Okay, well maybe it's a
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: it's a despotic state. Maybe we need to encourage that
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: ecosystem back to a healthier state. And the quickest way
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: of doing that, I mean, there has been some research
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: on probotics, which is you know, where you're giving one
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: or two or three different types of bactory and the
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: research and CF is hidden is depending on the combination.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: But again that's that's a really really small thing. Given
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: that the typically ecsystem have one hundred and sixty different
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: species of bacteria and you just add some lackt of
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: cilizen there. It's like not a huge restoration approach versus
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: FMT where you're taking pooh from a healthy person and
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: you're adding one hundred and fifty or two hundred species
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: into that ecosystem. So it helps restore that the ecoism
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: essentially would be the way best way of looking at it.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: And you're getting phenomenal success rates with c DIFF and
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: so much like you you wonder whine or if that
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: isn't first sort of call by at the convention medicine
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: whenever anyone has see if that FMT should be the
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: first portocole, it's not even now they will still do
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: a couple of course antibotics first. Then then maybe it
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: might be third down the line in most sort of guidelines.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: But when you give f MT, which I think is
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: ludicrous given the success rate and low risk of toxic
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: side effects with FMT, assuming of course that we've screened
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: the donors well. And I think they're having lessons learned
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: in this because there were cases where people become obese
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: after fecal transplant when the donor was no beast person,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: or people could get depressed or anxious after a fecal
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: transplant because the donor happened to have depression. You know,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: we've learned from some of those experiences about what things
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: we shot looking at. Besides just they don't have arrange
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: of diseases. It's just like they can't be overweight. They've
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: got to be medically well, they've got to have good mood.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: There's other criteria to look at to find you know,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I would I say good donors, so there's less risk
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: of any unwanted sort of disease pass on, because I
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: think that's the amazing thing that's changed in the last
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: twenty years. Is this you kind of alluded to, is
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the number of diseases we now associate with despotic or
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: negative alterations in the microbion composition, even things like hypertension.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Like I would not have thought, even someone who spent
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: years admiring in wonder of the microbiome, thinking that that
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: hypertension was a disease of dyspiosis. But we can take
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: pooh transplants from people who have low blood pressure normal
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: blood pressure, and given to people high blood pssure and
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: their blood pressure will normalize.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: You holy shit, excuse the pod exactly. So I just
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: need to double click here for some people who might
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: be going FMT fecal transplants, just just to clarify for
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: some people who may not be familiar with it. This
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: is what you get, as you said, a healthy donor
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: and you get some of their pooh, and then it
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: goes into a big syringe and goes up their JAXI.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Typically, yeah, it doesn't even a form too, but yes.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: It's a medical to Oh yeah, crapsules they're now being
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: called yeah. Yeah. And and basically what happens is is
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: that donors microbiome repopulates the colon of the unhealthy person.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: But as you said, I didn't know we've actually seen
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: that in humans, right, because years ago I remember reading
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: this stuff that from animal studies, you could take a
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: perfectly healthy mouse and given a fecal transplant of a
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: mouse with depression or anxiety, or obesity or diabetes, and
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: within a couple of weeks, with no change in the environment,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: that mouse would develop those conditions, and then they could
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: reverse it as well. So now you're saying that it
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: in humans with people getting depression or obesity from unscreened donors, right,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: this is that this is that do not do at
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: home people for those reasons, Yeah, and lots of other reasons. Right. Yeah.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: But it's been it's been interesting because I think you
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: go back to I think it was two thousand and
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: end of Taison five that first paper was published where
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: they gave poo from obese mice to thin mice, and
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: those mice got obese despite no change in cloric intake
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: or or or output. You know, they weren't exercising it
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: any less. They were eating the same out of food
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: and it just became grossly obese just from a pood transplant.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: That was a game changer in them, and not say
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: broader understanding of I've got and the importance of the
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: of the gut medical access, but but also that that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: how important got microphone is in that because before that
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: we were like, yeah they got microphone matters and IBS
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: or in family ball disease, like these gut conditions, but
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: maybe not outside that. But that blew it open, going,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: oh my god, you know if we can pass on
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: obesity by doing pood transplants. That opened the door to yeah,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: now there's research looking at depression, anxiety, hypertension. If I
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: mentioned before diabetes, so many things we can thease that
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: we would have not thought of as like transmitsible. We
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: can transmit via even Alzheimer's, you know, we can. We
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: can take you poo from adults with Alzheimer's and give
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: it to routes and they develop it into Alzheimer's disease.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: It's great, is that right?
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Wow? So I've seen some stuff obviously about Parkinson's disease.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: There's a there's quite a strong theory that it starts
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: in the gout NYE. But that Alzheimer's one is Wow,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: that is interesting and it just opens up a whole world.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: So that I think that's a really good segue into
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: the got Brian microbio too. Access. So just give people
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: a bit of an overview of the current state of play, Like, Hi,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: how is the communication happening between the got the brain
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: and the and the microbiome, you know, this whole idea
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: of the second brain. Just just give give people a
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: two or three minute overview of what we currently know.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, I don't even take it further step back into
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: scope like the gut microbiome, Yeah, totally, But it's essentially generally,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: when we see the gut microbiome, we're talking about the
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: microbes growing in the colon. You know, we will have
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: a different microbulag because it's in a small testine and
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: far less diverse in the stomach, for example. But when
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: we say microbiome, we're generally talking about colonic ecosism. Are
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: large intestine, but one hundred trillion different micro one hundred
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: trillion microbes living in that environment. And there's some debate about,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: you know, whether there are ten times a number of
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: microbes in our guts there was human cells. It's two
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: times or three times, but either way we have there's
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: you know, considered amount of us is actually composed of
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a microbe. And I think that's the other chain in
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: thinking from just sort of segue to you know, again
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: going back twenty some years ago, these researchers who looking
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: at the microfloor at the time were like, you know,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: we should we need to look at this as an
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: additional human organ just as important as the liver or
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: the small testine to human health. And I think that
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: shifting it. That's finally taken on board in many circles,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: but it's even moved beyond that to actually we are
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: a whole of violence, which is the term just meaning
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: that we are composed of microbes and non microbe cells, yeah,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: and all both, all of which is important. So when
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: we kind of take that on board, we have you know,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: one hundred trillion cells in our gut that actually influence
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: every single system of our body is influenced by that
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: ecosystem in our gut. That's what we're We've found out
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: now how immune system works, how metabal system work, metabolism works,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: how your brain works. You know, all that is related
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: to how your mitochondria working. Are related to that that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: that ecosystem in our gut. And typically we have for Westerners,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: but one hundred and sixty different species present in your gut.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: But that's far far less, and then we we're traditionally
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: had and far less what we see in hundred gathered
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: societies or yeah, that's right, you know, even like I
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: do microbomb assessments with I have for many years to
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the thousands of patients now and you know, the lowest
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: I've seen on a microbod assessment was twelve species and
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: someone who is on bank of mice and all of
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: them were pathogenic.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Into it's likely twelve space twelve series.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're all bad. You know, there's not a
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: good one to be seen. And conversely, I've seen four
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: hundred and thirty genera, so so we didn't go to
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: speedees of a general level. Was just that was that
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: was someone who grew up in rural Mexico and no antabotics.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: They were you know, born bonn at home and you
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: know they were breastfit. You know, it's just like that's
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: the contrasting things that I've seen in my clical practice.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: But a lot of you know, things that we get
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: exposed to in Western nations have caused a massive reduction
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: in diversity. Every egoism so that that is anabotics, that
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: is proton pump behaviors, and the class medications we use
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: to treat reflux turn out to be quite potent antibotic
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: like agents too. You know, I think twenty percent of
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: microbes and then gat are sensitive to are damaged by
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: protram pumpmavers. So we see massive loss of diversity, and
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: these medications are given like candy to you know, even
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: in Australia's like in ten million scripts or something for pbiser,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you know, per year, and we only have twenty five
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: six million people. You know, we get some context on that.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Then we Western diet and we have the craft that's
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: in our diet too, like a multifiers, I feel, sweeteners,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: all these things kill our peditial bacteria and damage the ecosystem.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I think, just on that to jump in there, there
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: was an Umbrella review published quite recently around ultra processed
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: foods and showing that increasing consumption, they had class one
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: evidence of a fifty percent increased risk in cardiovascular deaths,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: forty eight percent increased risk of anxiety, and fifty three
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: percent increase risk of common mental health disorder. Like, this
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: is the kneil in the coffin of ultra processed foods, right,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: this shit should be banned.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and you dig into You're like, wo,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: how are we allowed to be selling this stuff? Why
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: are we allowed to excessus? Because I mean our health problems.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: You know, you and ore old enough to have seen
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: this huge increase in Alzheimer's and typy diabetes and obesily
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: like you take put photos and beaches in the sixties
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and seventies, they don't not have the same as first time.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Now now it's like a different species ash And just
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: on that point, in the next couple of years, they
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: reckon that dementia is going to be the biggest killer
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: of all Australians right just now number two. It's number two,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: and it's the biggest killer of females currently.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and going back in the ultra process food like,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I was reading some research showing that in America, some
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: seven percent of their dietaries supply for some people is
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: ultra process seventy percent. You know, in Australia we're better off,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: but sheese, you know, not dramatically better off. If you
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: look at what people put in their shopping trolleys of
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the save market, Like, my god, so many people are
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: choosing those feelings.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: We are in the top six countries of global ultra
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: process food sales, so I think we're not that far
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: And you're right at both the UK and in the
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: United States, especially teenagers, almost seventy percent of their diet
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: process foods. And when we think about what that does
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: to the microbiome. So you talked about multifiers having an issue,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: but it's also preservatives and flavor enhancers and things like that,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: right that just do we know how these things impact
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the microbiome ni But.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: We're teasing into some of the stuff at now, and
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: even I would argue agricultural chemicals too. I think, like
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: common things like life is safe, but others, you know,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: and those forever chemicals kill good bactery as well. It's like,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we're living in this toxic soup
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: where almost everything people are eating intends to be killing
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: finial bacteria. It's kind of the state that many Westerners
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: are in. There's been a lot more research delving into
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a multifier since twenty fourteen. I think the first paper
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: was done looking at that because you know, people had
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: not thought of it before then in terms of like, oh, look,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: it kind of strips away your protective gut lining. You
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: can induce type two diabetes and metabolic syndrome in animal
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: models is by giving them dietary mulsifiers at the high
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: end of what humans could consume on a multiprocessed diet,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you know, and you're like, okay, look at that, and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: it changes the microbiome. We get reductions of beneficial bactery
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and we get these blooms of proteobacteria, typically in protebacteria
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: as you know, a phylum of bactery and the gat.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: All of us will have some there, but it varies
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: dramatically how much is there, and one of the attributes
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: are all putting back to his shares. They contain this
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: very pro inflammatory a bit of the cell wall called
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: endotoxin or lipopolysaccharide LPs for short. Yeah, so when we
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: eat these foods, LPs levels go up, and it's just
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: terms that the LPs. Just to be clear here, they
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: just grow it. Like you know we grow hair, we
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: grow nails, they grow LPs. You know, they're not trying
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: to make us unwell by screating a toxin in this instance,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: They're just growing the stuff. So when they live, they're
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: constantly shedding it. When they die, they shed it. So
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: the more proto vector we have in our gut, the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: more endotoxin or LPs we have in our gut. And
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you know, we have got some detox maktives to deal
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: with some of that, but you know, we've got so
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: much more getting into our system now that the LPs,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: I think is really one of the causative ways of
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: which the microbiome alters. I would say everything in a
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: negative way. You know, we know that that that LPs
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: actually damages the blood brain barrier, causing their logical inflammation.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Interesting research in Alzheimer's patients where people of Alzheimer's they
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: have three times more LPs in their bloodstreams than an
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: age match healthy controls. They have between three and twenty
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: six more times in their brain on autopsy than compared
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: to healthy control bodies. Autopsies it's just like it's crazy.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: And where where that is the the plaques build up
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: around the.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: The amyloid plaques. Yeah, yeah, because it's a it's because
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a it's a foreign in theater, right,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So the amyloid plaque is lied laid down to protect
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: against damages. Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And it's this LPs that's coming from the gut that's
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: actually driving this.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is why and the mechanism chased. Sorry,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: so the LPs did you say did I hear you
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: say that it basically degrades the mucous membrane. It does?
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: You know, we call say he got to enhance permie belief.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: So it definitely causes that. It drives information body wide, Okay,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: but we also know that it actually kept directly damages
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: the blood brain barrier. It causes you know, neurological information.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: It changes our nerves neurotransmitters too. You know those studies
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: where they've given happy, healthy people a shot of endotoxin
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: and they get anxious and depressed for hours afterwards, you know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: before birth clears it out. And we know that actually
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: is able to get into the brain and actually change
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: what neuro transfer that reproduce. You know, we get less
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: you know, serotonin happy happy compounds when we have more
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: DX in our system. They've done brain scans of people
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: have to give them a shot of endotox in their
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: brains turned bright red everywhere. But we live in a
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: reading this dietary approach for many Westerners who just have
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: this LPs leaking into their bloodstream twenty four hours a day,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: seven days a week. That's driving the chronic disease is
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: that we see from obesity to typew diabetes to Alzheimer's.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: You know these are all LPs driven conditions. Yeah, I
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: would anxiety depression of me two for that matter.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about the mechanisms here, because I really want
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: people to understand the structure of the colon and why
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: mucous membrane is so important. I mean, most people are
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: shocked when I tell them that at least eighty percent
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: of the immune system resides in the gut. So talk
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: us through what actually is happening when this mucus man
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Brian is being degree of it. Then the implications of that,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: like what we know happens with a leaky gut.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we see this as a very essentially the
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: consequence of a Western diet. The Western diet, you know,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: contains these chemicals which actually strip away your protective mucus layer,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: but also don't feed your your bendach bacteria that are
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: protective and help protect your umucosa as well. So we
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: have this double whammy that's going on. So essentially we're
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: getting this penetration of bacteri and bacterial byproducts that wouldn't
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: normally get through there's normally a thick mucus layer, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: even if they're there, they just can't contact the cells themselves.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: But when we thin out that mucus layer, were enable
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: that contact between bacteria and their LPs to actually directly
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: cause information and that causes leakiness. Then that LPs gets
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: in the bloodstream, and we do have metaoves to try
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: to deal with that. Like our liver is quite adapted
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: dealing with LPs for a certain period of time at
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: a certain amount. It's just that when it becomes overwhelmed,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: then it reaches the body wide circulation and that's where
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: it starts causing havoc everywhere. And this is where we see,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: like you know, alcoholic liver disease is like it's the
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: endotoxins that are causing liver damage. Yeah, it's just the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: alcohol causes the leak.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: He got.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Alcohol causes you know, damage in the cos allows the
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: enderdosin through. Alcohol causes blooms of protibacteria in the gad. Yeah,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: and that allows the endotoxin to come through and cause
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: damage to liver. And even in what we're called non
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: alcohol I fat liver disease. It's not got a recently
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: updated name, but it's that is damage is driven by
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: endotoxins as well.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Primarily interesting that alcohol causes a leaky God, I did
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: not know that. And this is this is a very
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: verging on oversharing right here, because I had some bol
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: issues a few years ago and was a little bit
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: concerned about just how diarrhea in the mornings not all
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: the time. But I went and I ended up having
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: a colonic, not a colonic. I ended up having a
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: end endoscopy yet and it was all clear. And then
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: what I worked out is it was after I drunk alcohol,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and that now it makes perfect sense, So I I
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: just sort of worked it, Jesus, it's after I drank
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the night the next morning, That's the only time that
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: I have that diary yet and now it makes sense.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think even like the hangover effect, I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: think is because of the anterotoxin that's to the intertoxins
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: that that come into your brain, your brain from that
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: alcohol ingestion too. Yeah wow Yeah. And alcohol also slows
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: down your small vowel transit to so you get this
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: sort of extra effective, if extra capacity to absorb stuff
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: through that that damage small vowel too, because microbes aren't
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: moving things aren't moving through in the same way. Cause
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I trade a lot of patients with overgrowth the bactory
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: and the small intestine SIBO small intestin vactory over with
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: alcohol that come and reinduce her some of the clear
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: cebo it's gone, But then it might be you know,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Christmas and your time, and they end up drinking apes
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: and seb overturn as a consequence of that alcohol ingest
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: interesting stops.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So you got alcohol, You got alcohol, significant alcohol, all
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: to a typical SAD diet, the standard American or the
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: standard Australian diet towards standard it's the standard Western diet,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: but the standard Western diet on its own a shithouse
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: for your microbiome. Just a recap for people, it basically
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: encourages his LPs, which degrade your mucous membrane. And I
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: also if you're not having a lot of fiber. My
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: understanding is the fiber munching bacteria in your gut that
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: thrive off fiber, they turn into cannibals when you don't
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: have enough fiber and to eat your mucus membry and
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: so we have then a double wami from that. Plus
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you're not supporting your healthy microbiome, then you get an
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: unhealthy one. You get leaky gut, then you get LPs
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: getting into the bloodstream triggers and immune response and then
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: gets into the brain. And what other impacts does that
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: have metabolically? I think you mentioned the mitochondria earlier.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: On Yeah, because LPs is also mitochondria toxin. Wow. To
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: add add to the mix of everything else that's actually
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: doing it did impairs insolent sensitivity too, so it drives
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: you know, likely good levels to go up to by
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: impairing your insulin capacity to bring levels down. It's it's
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: a really horrific substance where you look at it and
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, I do not want this
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: stuff in my blood stream. Would you eat the best
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: die possible to prevent that LPs load getting into my
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: gut into reduced levels of LPs vector and you got
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: because it really is, Yeah, I think it. You know,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: it's seems a very core driver of Alzheimer's and not
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: it's funny. Look at the research, it's all very clear
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: out there. But then like the sude people who you know,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Alzheimer's specialists who just still have no idea of any
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: of the stuff around got that we good in other areas,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: but completely ignorant of things like that, which I still
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: find problematic. Means the end result of people aren't getting
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: proper care and we're ignoring a core underlying driver that
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: that that needs to be addressed if we wanted to
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: to prevent this sort of Alzheimer's and the gemmick that
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: we're seeing. And it's so the only they can be
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: getting worse too that.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: You so you look at the rea of it. The
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: increasing rates in lots of western nations are scary, and
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: I'd encourage anybody for Australia just to look at the
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Australian industry of health, of welfare and the deaths that
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: cut the causes of death in Australia, and you just
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: see because they have it mapped out over the year,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: should just say like dementia was way down to the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: bottom and it's just gone boom shot way up right,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: So they bring Alzheimer's into that umbrella.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And these things should worry is I thought that some
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: one amazing that we don't seem to be too bothered by.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: You know, there's huge rate of OBC in our kids
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: about using kids or this huge boom of Alzheimer's nearly
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: as much as we should. I mean, there'll be people
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: like you or I who are like, this is incredible stuff.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: We need to be worried about the people that are
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: making decisions around what's a lad in our food supply,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: which we know there is a huge correlation here. Like
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: it's mind blowing that we're not making deeper changes in
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: terms of what's allowed to be putting our food, what
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: can we label as food because all these pseudo foods
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: that people are consuming that are actually directly causing this
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: are totally loud in our current health.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, and you know this whole thing if
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: it looks if it doesn't look like it's been alive
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: recently and minimally interfered with by humans, then don't dat
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the bloody stuff or I talk about the early twenty road, right,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: So twenty percent treat stuff, but eighty percent of the
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: stuff that goes into your gub on a daily basis
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: shue have been alive recently and minimally interfered with by humans.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Because I am a big believer, and it's Professor Philis
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Jaka who is the driver of the nutritional psychiatry movement.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: She said that the ultra processed food system or the
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: food global food industry is the biggest driver of chronic
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: disease in the world without exception. And I think she's
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: absolutely right. You only have to look at like what
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: has changed from I saw a photograph the other day
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: of Bathurst in the nineteen seventies, the crowd and there's
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: a huge amount of people in it, just as you
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: was mentioned earlier on not one obese person there, not one, right,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: And that was in nineteen seventy seven. And you look
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: back and that you can just look at all photographs
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: of people at beaches in the fifties and sixties to seven.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: It just we didn't have hardly any of it. And
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: now it is the norm to be overweight at orbees.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: What has changed? The big thing that changes our diet
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: and all the plastics, these forever chemicals that you talked about, right,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: which go hand in hand with the diet and the
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: food packaging and all of that.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly when we're buying the process food it's going to
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: cover with, we're cover with plastical stuff too, so we
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: get extra dose to the plastic too.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so's and do we know anything about the role
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: of these forever chemicals in the gut because we have
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: now found that. I saw some research the other day
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent of placentas that were tested in the
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: United States had got forever chemicals microplastics in the placenta. Right,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: we now know we've seen it in the human brain
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: as well, and we've seen it in other organs. Do
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: we know the role that they play in the gut yet?
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: I would argue it's under research. But that's again probably
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the last ten years people started to look at that
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: and it looks like there's a pretty common pattern that
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: those rigor chemicals harm beneficial microbes and increased levels of
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: proty bacteria. Yeah, and it's just kind of the same
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: pattern we see with the ultra precess food dies to
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: the increased protebacta reduce levels of benifh bacteria becaues some
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: of the Even though stuff that we had like triclecan
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: as a compound that anti antacific is added to toothpaste.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: In some parts of the world it's classic the carcinine
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: not allowed, but in other parts, like Australia, added to
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: toothpaste we can frush our teeth with it. Actually, again
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: it kills our benished bactery and causes these blooms of
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: prote bactery even when in the doses we're getting from toothpaste.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: It's just like, why is this stuff allowed? You know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: it's just crazy. So it's like we're being bombarded on
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: all sides, from cosmetics to our food supply that these
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: things that are causing microboob harm that don't necessarily get
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the airplay of antabotics. More people are aware of what
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: it's causing harm, and they do, but they at least
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: they have some therapeutic benefit in certain situations. Other things
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: do not all of you, and there's no reason why
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: that we should be consuming them.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about antibiotics right now. So we
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: just had a chat but before we came on. So
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I am currently on a course of antibiotics. I'm not
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: happy about it. I mean, there is very compelling research
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: about the amount of courses of antibiotics that you're on
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: throughout your life has a significant impact on the healthier gut, microbiome,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: and all sorts of other health conditions, particularly obasically in diabetes. Now,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I had to have one because I had an infection
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: in a tooth and I was saying to you. The
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: doctor did a three D X ray which actually showed
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: the infection had penetrated to the riysth of my mouth
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: into the sinus, and it was amazing. You could see
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: that the immune tiste had dumped all this inflammation on it. Right,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: So this was a no brain This is a case
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: endpoint where antibiotics can be life savers, right, because if
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I was a cave man, that shit could kill me.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: So what do we do when we're on course of antibiotics?
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Is it? Because I've heard conflicting evidence about whether or
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: not you should take probiotics. Some people say it's no
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: point in doing it until you finish the course. Other
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: people have said a couple of ours after your antibiotic,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: then take a probiotic. So what what what is your
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: understanding of it and what particular types and does it
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: depend on the antibiotic that you're on. What do we
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: know about this?
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good question. I think the first thing is just
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: making sure you need it the analyotic and I always
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: just people really cutch the prescriber for something like you're
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: dealing with, Yeah, you know, for a bone infection or something.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Yet totally you know, patient of the week that that
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: feller broke the risk and had to have you know,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: surgery in the metal bits in their armed whole things. Yeah,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: they need antibotics to prevent any sort of bone infection,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: no doubt. But we also know that I think for
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Australian data show that just a couple of years ago
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: from viral bronchitis, eighty percent of people who went to
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: their GP were prescribed antibotics.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: For viral and they do nothing virus it's got harm.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: You know, So just be aware of that that one
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: don't request them for viral infections to question whether they're
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: really needed in this case, because sometimes they are, and
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: they are live in life saving and they need them.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: So when you do need them, the research, it's very
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: clear if you take the right probotic during the course,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: you get less side effets, and you get less microbiome
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: harm and you get better restoration of the ecosystem afterwards. Okay,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: so that is clear, and the idea that you should
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: wait till afterwards is kind of not based on evidence anymore.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I think it was a theoretical concept from forty years ago,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: before we had studies showing that the opposite, we get
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: better outcomes. It's not to say that every probotic can
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: be helpful, because there was one study that made huge
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: worldwide airplayers and Israeli study where they found a one
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: particular probotic supplement on the Israeli market that when given
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: alongside of course of antobotics, actually slowed down the microbiome
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: restoration compared to doing nothing at all. Yeah, and it
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: turns out that the lack of silite in that specific supplement,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: so they created compounds that prevented the growth of good bacteria. Okay,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: there's potential for harm if you just take a random
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: products someone with no evidence on it, I think is
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: relatively small, but there is. But we have you know,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: you know, I've got a website called Product Advisor, which
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: is actually an evidence based database where you can actually
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: look at at probodic research and you can type in
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: antibotics when it comes up with the product strains that
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: have been using human clinical trials and the effects in
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: those studies and the level evidence where there it's be
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: meta analysis or rand Rise controlled trial or open label trial.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Try to make this easier to prescribe it products an
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: evidence based way and using the right one for the
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: right condition. And there is a bug Lacy skill surrand
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Nooses g G that has you know, meta analysis level
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: data for prevention of that rock associated side epics or sacrifices,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: servy a CI variety, bloody eye.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Is that Sychritsi that's nickname, yeah, rights proper name bittriistically
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: for proper names.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: But it also has meta analysis level data where we
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: have a number of clinical trials showing it works. Yes,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: we can't have any debates about this because evidence shows
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: it works. Longside antibotics ideally, Yeah, you want to space
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: at the bacteria ones by probotics by two hours from
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the antibotox, they're not rolling around in your stomach at
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: the same time with the sacramaricees. It doesn't matter because
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: it's not running pacted. Yeah okay, yeah, and then for
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: six during the course and for six weeks afterwards is
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: key because that's where the major disruption is and after
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: that point there's a stability back in that ecosystem. But
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I also want to make the point too that it
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't this reduces some of the harm to your microbiome.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: It reduces the side effect rate you're going to get
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: from the antibiotics, but it doesn't stop perhaps extinction level events.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: It's carpet bombing your microi holm. Really is what's happening
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: in my body right now. Unfortunately on too where this
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: is my microbiome was being carpet bombed.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one study for others publishing got a couple
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: of years ago where they showed that with single courts
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: and antibotics, nine species were lost forever from that person's ecosystem.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: And this was with ivy anabotics two, so that it
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: wasn't like orally IV nine species completely lost. First couple
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: of days afterwards, like they're doing pre samples every single day,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: there's this massive completely derangement and this bacteria that was
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: like zero point zero something percent that they had never
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: even seen before, went up to ninety six percent of
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: the ecosystem for the first couple of days afterwards, because
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: they had anabotic resistance to that antrobotic. They actually named
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: it bork Folkyi seph triactensis because of set TRIACs in
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: the antibotic that actually induced this bloom of this bacteria.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: And then the pattern kind of fall back down, but
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: the ecosm was clearly different, you could see it afterwards,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: never ever get in the same and there's nine species
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: that were lost. So I think it's also important pair
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: that we know that we can't just pop up probotic
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: and reinalcuate a reced or eat some surcard or kim
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: chi afterwards and go, oh, what would be great. It's like, no,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: these things are microbiome altering agents in a permanent sense. Yeah,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: not just in a short term sense like we once believed.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: You skip back, and when I started in this field
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: twenty some years ago, the data at that point using
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: culturing studies, which is really insensitive to see anything, was like, oh,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: four weeks after anabotics, you've got was fine again, you know.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: But since since that, since we started using DNA technology
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: to assess the microbiome, and we can see properly, we're like, actually,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: four years afterwards, it doesn't look the same, and there's
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: species lost each.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Jump, and Jesus wow, And this is why.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: Is such a depleted microbiome, because said I take I
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: grew up in the seventies, It's like, oh, you got
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: a cool take antabotics. It would have taken probably three
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: or four courses the year most years when I was
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: a kid and I had a two you know, I
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: grew up in Canada, a pretty westernized diet as well,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: you know, so my microbiome was smashed during during that time.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: And and I was lucky that I was born with doinalie.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: At least I would have been given the full sort
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: of Cohordi micros from my mum. And those kids born
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: b C section, don't you know, and those kids.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: This is another thing that plays into it, right, And
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I actually I want to come I want to come
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: back to what we can actually do because Melbourne has
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: got the highest rate of C sections anywhere in the world, right,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: so voluntary sea section. And when my wife was having
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: to be a the obstetrician told her that her pelvis
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: was too small and that she had to come in
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: for a sea section, and I'm like, what are you
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: basing that on? Right? And she ended up having a
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: vaginal birth, right, but they just want to schedule it, right,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: this is the thing. So it's got the highest rate
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: of se section sis convenient, highest rate of se sections
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: anywhere in the world, and the highest rate of allergies
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: anywhere in the world. Right, And we know that those
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: two are causally linked, right indeed, And so this starts
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: from birth and then breastfeeding is hugely, hugely important for
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: that microbiome. We see sea sectioned kids, you know, they
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: they're much better at it now, I write, but in
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: the old days of the sea section, what they find
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: is that the child's microbiome in early life was reflective
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: of the skin microbiome of the doctors and the nurses, right,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: which is just friggin whenever we not understand the impact
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: of your microbiome. Let's talk about what people can do
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: to diversify their microbi and whether or not they've just
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: had a course of antibiotics or they're listening to this
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: and going, Jesus, my diet's a bit cheered hoise, or
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: even if it's not chehose. I want to improve my
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: diet because I want to improve my got microbound because
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: of all the things that Jesus has just said.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: So yeah, because we've talked with things that are quite
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: depressing day. But there's stuff father steps we can take,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Like I can think of mine where you know, I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: did not have a great upbringing from microbiome perspective in
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: terms of antibotic exposure in Western diet. But then you know,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: at eighteen nineteen are discovered eating well and living well
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: and my micro room has bloomed beautifully and I'm still lacking.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: I can richness in terms of you know, that progly
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: micro harm that was causebandobotics. I can't fix in that way,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: but I can do the best. I can still have
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: good health it despite the fact that I hambered my
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: micro bian when I was yelling. I suppose It's what
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to illustrate here. And and you're right, what
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: diversity is one of the key things we look for
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: for a healthy microbiome. Yeah, So diversity's got two aspects
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: to it. One is the richness, so how many different
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: species there are in that ecosystem, And the second aspect
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: that is evenness Yes, we don't want one species to
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: dominate at seventy or eighty percent or fifty percent. You
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: don't want it to look like a plantation. Should look
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: like a really like a tropical rainforest where those one
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: hundred different species all intermingled, so you're not seeing the
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: same tree everywhere. Yeah, that's what we're aiming for. So
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: how do we induce that even if we have been
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: hammered by antibotics and had a let's see section of
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: birth or formula fed, you know, like an I was
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: formula fed two. We do that by the techniques we
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: know that have the biggest impact on enhancing diversity are
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: eating more plant foods and more fibers, more and a
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: diversity of plant foods too. You know, we know if
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: for people who can handle thirty to forty different plant
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: foods per week in their diet, we have a massive
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: improvement in diversity. And that may sound scary, but if
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: you start including Granny Smith apple, Red Delicious apple, Fooji apple,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: are three different foods, black rice, red rice, brown rice,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: three different whole foods, you know, black quinoa, red kinoa,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: white king loss. So often when I'm cooking rice, they'll
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: make the tri color rice, or I'll make three different
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: types of keen loss, so that for I'm getting three
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: foods in one, you know, make sure by a variety
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: of apples. And it's because the different colors, compounds and slight,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: different fiber portions actually feed different microbes. And the idea
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: with having a thirty to forty whole sort of different
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: plant foods per week is that we have so many
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: different types of fiber, many different types of polyphenol and polyphenols.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: For those who aren't familiar, you're best off thinking of
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: it as like the colorful compounds and berries and then
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: eight plant skin and you know those things are usually
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: up and are always polyphenols. Yeah, they also feed your
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: instral microbes too. So we have a diet this colorful rainbow,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: natural color, not synthetic dry color, but natural. Yes, And
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: as much you know the diversity of a whole plant foods,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you're going to get a more diverse ecosystem. We also
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: know that spending time in nature too, and I think
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: this is something that we're often missing too in our
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: modern world diversifies their ecosystem. And that's just going for
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: a walk in nature that work in the park. Yes,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: will it work better in a national park. Yes, you know,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: the more diverse the eues and you're in lovely rainforest environment.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: National park is going to be better than the playground
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: down the street. But the playgund down the street is
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: better than being in your apartment, you know, or in
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: your house. You're still going to pick up micros.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: For that, so I'll just to add in there. And
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: the ocean as well. You can actually pick up microbes
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: because I live near the beach and I did a
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: podcast on that. Like being spending time in nature, whether
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: it's in trees around the beach, you actually absorb some
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: of those microbes and calculated into your microbomes.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Co shit, right, it's really amazing. And following that on
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: that too, they've looked at people's gardens and I'm not
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: even talking here about food gardens, but we will later,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: But just the number of ornamental plants you have growing
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: in your yard, the greater diversity of ornamental plants you
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: have growing, the more diverse you've got microbiome. Because each
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: of those ornamental plants had this own microbiome. So you're
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: interacting with those plants. You're weeding, you're pruning, you're touching smelling,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: you're actually in getting more microbes in your ecosystem, and
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: we take that another level in terms of we're able
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: to grow around food too. You know, if it's some
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: of those foods, because we actually get soil bacteria, we
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: get the microbes on those foods in a very natural,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: lack of a better word, natural way.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: There's I was at a conference in Italy just wise.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: I was there in July and there's microbiome conference and
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: one of the researchers there was talking about the microbiomes
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: on plant foods and the importance of microbiomes in plants too,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: and we able to talk about human microbiomes. Well, turns
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: out plant microbiomes are just as important to them as
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: they are to us. But they did research on cold
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: stored apples versus local apples, and the cold stored apples
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: had the same number of microbes on them, but diversity
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: was almost minimal. So the cold stored mit microbiome had
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: a very low low diversity, whereas your fresh, your local
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: apple was full of a wider diversity of microbes. And
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: they found that across different foods. Yeah, foods that were
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: grown organically had again the number of microbes on them.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: It wasn't different. It was the diversity of the microbe,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: the richness of the ecosm was completely different. With organic
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: foods versus conventionally grown food completely different if you bought
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: it your farmer's market versus is the supermarket.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was oblid to say, don't buy your freakin
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: fright and veggies in the supermarket if you can, if
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: you can avoid farmers markets of the way ahead.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Because it turns out that that the supermarket the supermarket
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: microbiome that goes across plants. So if we're buying cauliflower, broccoli,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: eight plant apple from the supermarket, their ecosystems are on
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: those foods are essentially the same, whereas in the real world,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: each of those foods has got a completely different microbiome,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: and when we're consuming those foods, we get those microbes too.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Some will be tempered visitors, some will be longer term
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: inhabitants from that, but obviously we're eating them a loft
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: and they kind of play the same role as a
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: commensal micro would as well. It's really is fascinating, really
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: illustrates the importance of buying, find local, buying your supermarket,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: growing at least some of your own food getting in nature,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: you know, because I think those are things that we
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: sometimes have dropped away. And I think industry has been
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: propped similar to blame for this too, because they just
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: like just take a pro products like no, yeah, I
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: think you're trying to improve your diversity. Proboduict scellments have
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: a minimal impact.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're they're transient, right, products emotions.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Those people don't know that either. You're right that with
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the odd exception study of the last forty years have
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: shown that they stick around for one, two, three, five
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: to ten days. That's it after you start taking their gone.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: And isn't there an issue Jason that with people who
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: overconsume probiotics can in some cases get sebo small intestinal
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: bacterial overgrowthiar Is that.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I think that was over overplayed. No, I think that
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: would be very unlikely scenario because the one study that
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: purported to show a correlation between probotic use and brain
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: fog and ceboat when they did if you're looking to
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: find details of that paper, which I have, it was
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: they actually sampled the microbiome in the small vow of
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: these people and they did not have bifcobacteria, which you
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: find in product seglements, and almost nover had lack of
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: sily growing there what they had with Steptococcus growing the
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: vast majority of them, which comes from our spit primarily,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: but also some some of your burds might contain a
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: lot of stripper cocci, but it really did not correlate
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: with with probodic use when they're they're small valants.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, it just explode exploded that myth. I read the
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: paper the lesson read the paper in detail.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, what if you read the conclusion that would
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: have been totally the head It's true because I think
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: he miss missed. Sometimes when you're writing up a paper,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: there are certain bits that you can take out that
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: read more headline grabbing than other bits. Yeah, and if
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: you actually look at the microbiology component, it does not
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: support them. Dolying.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: And sometimes researchers give a conclusion which when you look
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: at the data, is actually not supported. I've talked about
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: that before, right, Okay.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Even though as someone who's tried to get research published,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: sometimes we had to tone down. You know, we first
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: did a system. I could be looking at a particular
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: probotic for antabotic associated diarrhea. I think with nine studies
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: all it should have worked. And I wanted to say
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: it worked, and the peer reviewers like, no, you still
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: can't say it work. You have to say it might work.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: You know, need lots more studies. I'm like, what's the
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: risk in this situation if people just start taking this
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: at least diarrhe orally slide of et cetera. Anyway, But sometimes,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you know, pe reviewers do force us to change our
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: statements when we get things polished.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: To we are a little running out of time, which
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: is unfortunate. But I do want to talk about aging
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: and the microbiome, right because aging well is a big
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: thing now, I'm rightly so. And you know, I've seen
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: a fur bit of research that when people age, their
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: microbiome changes, it becomes narrower and it changes. What do
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: we know about coincidence versus cause and effect, And just
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: give us the state of play on all of this.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Listen, in Western nations, where I'd say we age in
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: general poorly, we do see a change of the microbiome.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: We see lacking and changing diversity, reducing and diversity you
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: mentioned before, decreased level of beneficial microbes that would be
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: bifito bacteria for example, b rate producing microbes Ficali bacting,
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: which is the micro we haven't talked about much, but
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: it's actually lovely microbe will tend to go down. We
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: see these blooms of proteobacteria that antion is for, like E. Coli.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: And also another group of bacteria that produced hydrogen sulfide
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: gas one called billifhyla and sulfur. Your bread is going
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: into more specific detail. They tend to bloom the last
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: bit as we age. Yeah, and and those pupul cans
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: do age well, those micro bloom much later. So for
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: us in western nations, it might be the change occurs
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: in our sixties, but those people who are in those
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: sort of maybe blue zones or people age well, that
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: same changes occur, but in the nineties, need to give
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: some context. We see the same changes, but it happens
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: at a different different time point. Yeah, and that's where
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: the lifestyle dietary factors I think are key, you know,
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: we you know, I think they are more contributed to
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: what we see is the aging microbiome changes than aging physiology.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: I think there's a component of that, like there is
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: some researching we might have. You know, we make less
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: mucous you know, as we age, and that can mean
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that you know, more can change what micros are being fed,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: can change what micro components get into our bloodstream from that.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: But I think more research is focused on Okay, well,
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: it's actually as people age, they tend to eat more
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: crap food. You know, they're not preparing food in the
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: same way that they had before because that maybe they
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: have less energy to do so, or the less reason
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: to do so. Like once your kids leave home. You know,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I'm finding it that I don't have a family to
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: cook for. I don't cook nearly as much as I do,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: and I've got three three kids to cook for, Like
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I make a huge feast with amazing yummy food. You know.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: So do people tend to have much narrower dieuts as well,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: don't they? Because they become creatives and habits and then Jesus,
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: you go into you go into a retirement village and
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: all people so they just feed just cheap ship.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, process all through process food, you know, and that
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: that hastens the whole aging process. Yeah, yeah, so I
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: do think there again, we can be proactive by the
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: strategies we talked about before getting nature and eating it.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: The resprict you plant rich diet. Yeah, so I had
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: lots of legomes, lots of hohole grains.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Do what they do in Japan, the icky guy. Grow
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: your own vegetables, grow your own food right as you
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: as you have a bit more time instead of sit
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: much in a friggin TV.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, and then even just could stroll the nature,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: you know, throll down to the beach you got. You know,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: we should have more time to actually enjoy nature at
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: that age. We should, but often if we haven't take
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: care of ourselves adequately in earlier years, sometimes not as
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: to be able to get out into nature at that point,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: which is one of those verbal conndrums that we find
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: ourselves in Western nations.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and I think to underscore just as we
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: were talking for a couple of minutes before we came
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: on our there was a pretty seminal paper released, I
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: think it was twenty fourteen about the major hallmarks of aging,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: and they identified nine different hallmarks of aging such as
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: telemere shortening, DNA damage, inflammation, proteo stasis damage, all of
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: these things. But just last year an update was released
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: and added two more hallmarks of aging, one of which
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: was the changes in the gut microbiome being causative for
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: aging and actual process that's that's causative.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: So and then again talking about going back to the
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: fecal transplants, there's been so many studies now in ice
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: where they can take a Pooh transplant from an old mouse,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: give it to a young one, and they essentially age quickly.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: You know, they can develop like the brain patterns changes,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: the brain chemeratry changes, the metallites and their bloodstream change.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: They essentially age immensely quickly. And conversely, they can take
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: a Pooh transplant from a young healthy one and give
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: it to a older one and it actually again it
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: reverses the aging process to a certain degree. You know.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: So there's enough evidence around the causation stuff with microbiome
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: in terms of speeding up the aging process or flowing
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: down the aging process. It really does need to be
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: on our radar, and it's someone like I'm fifteen one now,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: it's like a totally on my radar that you know
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: that I want to age well, have a good health span.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be someone who's stuck in bed
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: for the last twenty years of my life. I want
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: to be hiking mountains up until I'm ninety, you know,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and I would be able to do everything I want
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: to do. And part of that is definitely of microbiome support,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: you know, looking after those the good bactories best we
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: can and suppressing levels of those in pro inflammatory path
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: of bonds or protei bactories specifically, and that means which
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: we can do through lifestyle, doctory choices. I think that's
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: the thing. Fecal transplant studies are cool because they can
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: show these really quick changes, but we don't need fecal
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: transplants to change the microbiome, you know, getting in nature,
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: eating the right food for medicine, and to use lots
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: of probodics to help speed that process along too. There's
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: so much we can do that don't need the big
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: of a fecal transplant. You know. It's a very quick
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: way of doing it versus you know, changing your diet
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: and lifestyle will take more work and take more time,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: but you get profound changes in the microbiome.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: And also managing stress is important as well, because stress
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: can change the microbiome too, so it's a two way interaction, right.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll I had of patients just this week who
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: stress with job situation brought on a flare of their
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: their crones disease. And that's it's not uncommon in the
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Chrohnes literature, but it's essentially through microbiome changes. At least
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: one of their magazines, what is going on because there
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: are again those protebactery their populations go up when exposed
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: to stress, womens and our good back factory populations go down.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: That's what's shown. Even in the nineteen seventies and eighties
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: and nineties we had research sharing the negative impact of
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: stress microbiome composition.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah wow, Jason, this has been a tour to force
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: of the microbiome. So, I know you consult with patients
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: and I think you're still open to taking on patients.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: But you also have a whole heap of online educational courses,
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: both for clinicians and probably for interested end users. So
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: where do people go a if they want to? Presumably
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: you'll do microbiome testing and then interventions with you with
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: your patients. Yeah.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Microbime work is the core aspect of my clinical practice
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: these days.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: Coast so where do people go for that? And then
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: where do they go if they are interested in more
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: and want to take some of your online courses.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, so I've got probably three three different umbrellas. My
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: clinic is the Horrible I. Gut In Microbiome Clinic, and
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: I've got a number of microbiome trained concients who work
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: with me to satisfy the desire to have you know,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: microbrome clintions to work with for range of chronic diseases
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: or just for optimizing health. I've got the Microbiome Restoration Center,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: which is my sort of main educational center platform where
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: we have courses primarily for health professionals to obscull them,
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: but you know, both in terms of they did have
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Advanced Microbiome Manipulation course, which is about making people microbime analyst.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Thats at the end of going let's do ten weeks
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: of intense training on microbiome analysis to become proficient at
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: this task. And another course on sort of treating gastroenttrology
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: conditions like IBS and reflux and things with you know,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: evidence based natural medicines and lifestyle and dietary and modifications.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: And then the probotic Advisor is my other sort of
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: umbrella where we have that pro evidence based database, and
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: we do have some the odd course more through general
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: public too, like the Media Microbiome course, it's asigned for
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the general public, but most of my offerings these days
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: that are cured in for health professionals, because I mean
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: I I've been teaching health professionals probably from two thousand
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: and one when I first started teaching, so long time.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: It is my third seat of teaching population. But I
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: also I've been working with patients for you know, nearly
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: twenty five years too, so I so we love being
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: in the trenches and actually describing things, doing microbiome work
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: and seeing the before and after tests and how they feel,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: you know, the number of time do you change the
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: microbiome and oh I've got more energy, Oh the brain
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: fogs go on. Oh the longer the press are anxious.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: It's just like, you know, some of those things that
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: seem so core ingrained that we can just change to
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: changing the microbiome composition, making the gun function better. It's
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: just amazing to see in real life practice.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: It is pretty amazing. Jason, you are on the forefront
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: of the well. I think is probably a nix from
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: tier in medicine, and those traditionalists who think that the
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: got microbiome has got no role to play in medicine
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: need to get their heads out of their arsesruly do.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: And even I want to hearing people say, oh, we
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: don't know enough to the move yet, I'm like, oh
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: my god, Like, how many more cuities do we need? Like,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: and it's because you don't know enough doesn't mean other
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: people don't. Yeah, that's the thing too. I agree, you
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: don't know enough to make any changes here, but there
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: are people who do. There are people who spent twenty
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: years researching or more, and they do know how to
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: change the microbiome, and they do know how to actually
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: a positive health changes from that. Yeah, so I think
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: ignore those maysayers there too.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: One last question now that I've wrapped up, But how
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: far away do you think that we are are from
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: personalized diets based on the microbiome?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: I mean you can do a degree of that now
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, we can do microbon picture going eat
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: more of these food lets of these food then we'll
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: generally see the changes we want to see. Okay, but
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: some people react uniquely the things that don't react as
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: as in typical. So I think there are some exceptions
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: to that that that as clinician can be challenging because
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: it's like research telling me this what this substance it does.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: It does this in not even of my patients totally
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: fine as it does in the research for thecation person
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: it doesn't, and then you have to be trying to
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: work at why.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Then we always have autos right exactly?
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Ye? Yeah, yeah, so I think we're already there to
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: a certain degree. Yeah. I think again, as research moves
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: into greater detail with the microbiome, will become better with it,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: even still than what we are now. But I think
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: there's still enough there now that we can we can
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: put together, you know, internalized dietary prebotic regime to optimize
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: your ecosystem based on your initial picture.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, awesome, good stuff, thanks mate.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: That's right,