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Becoming Anchored S3E5: Worrying is Optional with Ben Eckstein · Becoming Anchored

0:03
Lauren: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
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We're so glad you are with us today.
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We have a very exciting episode.
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Laura and I are super pumped to get into the content with
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you guys here in just a bit.
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Before we get started, I'll do a quick intro.
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So I'm one of your hosts, Lauren Jackson.
0:20
This is our other wonderful host, Laura Dineen.
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We're part of a group practice in Brentwood, Tennessee,
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Anchored Counseling Company.
0:27
So we specialize in eating disorders at the outpatient level, along with
0:32
a lot of other presenting concerns, grief, anxiety, life transition, and
0:37
we see all ages through the lifespan.
0:39
We adore our work and we've loved doing this podcast with you all and connecting
0:45
with you guys in a different way.
0:46
Quick disclaimer before we get started.
0:48
So this podcast, This episode is for informational purposes only.
0:52
This is not meant to be your therapy.
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If you are finding, as you listen and engage with us, that you could
0:58
benefit from therapy, reach out to us.
1:00
If you're local, we'd love to connect with you, help you get connected to
1:02
a licensed professional counselor.
1:05
If you're not local to us, find someone near you who's licensed.
1:08
So we're happy to have you guys.
1:10
Laura: Thanks, Lauren.
1:11
Yeah, it's just been a joy to engage with you all on this platform, and today we are
1:16
just so thrilled to welcome Ben Eckstein.
1:19
Is that how you say your last name?
1:20
I forgot to ask you before.
1:22
How do you say it?
1:22
Ben: people say Extine or Extine.
1:25
I usually say Extine
1:26
Laura: Amazing.
1:27
Ben Eckstein, yeah, to the podcast he owns a group practice in North Carolina.
1:33
And he also recently, about a year ago now, released a wonderful book.
1:39
I told him as we were talking and getting to know each other before
1:42
we started recording that it is my favorite book written on anxiety and
1:45
I recommend it to literally every client that walks through our doors.
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And so we're just so thrilled to have the opportunity to talk to
1:50
you and to learn from you today.
1:52
If you're new to this show, really the purpose of this podcast is twofold.
1:56
Lauren came to me about a year and a half ago and said had this idea of starting
1:59
the podcast and I jumped on board and we really are here just to share some
2:03
of our life stories with you all.
2:05
We go through pain and hard things and we also have moments of joy and we
2:10
are here to just share that with you, and we're also here to share about
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some of the things that we've learned being therapists, and we just have the
2:17
privilege of sitting with clients on a daily basis, and I know that I love this
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work, I know Lauren does, I know that Ben does and so we're really just here
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to ride the waves of life with you all.
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So without further ado, welcome Ben, we're so glad to have you.
2:44
Ben: thanks so much for having me.
2:45
Laura: Yeah.
2:46
So Ben's title of the book that he released is called Worrying is Optional.
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And as we were talking about what we wanted the title of the episode to
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be, we thought, Hey, like this could be a wonderful title for the episode.
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And so today we're going to be talking about really some of the things
3:00
that he talks about in the book.
3:02
And this idea that worrying is optional.
3:06
So again, thanks Ben for being here.
3:08
Ben: Yeah I'm excited to talk about it a bit
3:10
Laura: so tell us a little bit more about the work that you do and how
3:14
that led you to author this book.
3:18
Ben: Yeah I have a practice, which is really, Entirely comprised
3:23
of OCD and anxiety disorders.
3:26
Is a thing that comes up a lot in our practice.
3:29
And, the book was born out of really looking at sort of the
3:34
intersection of these things.
3:36
With OCD have, their obsessions and their compulsions.
3:40
But a lot of people have what we call mental compulsions, right?
3:43
So they're doing these things to resolve doubt or to try to reduce distress.
3:48
But they're all just happening within their heads, right, so it's,
3:52
it might be ruminating, it might be mentally reviewing, but there's
3:55
something happening that is just this kind of internal process.
4:00
And then you have things like generalized anxiety, or social
4:02
anxiety, where, again, you get a lot of that of worrying presentation.
4:08
And I think there is a lot of overlap between these two things.
4:11
And so I think with the book I, it was really important to me that it was a
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transdiagnostic approach to things.
4:18
That I, I don't know, not to, throw the DSM under the bus, but
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I, these categories aren't perfect,
4:23
Lauren: right?
4:24
Ben: think we do tend to see a lot of overlap between
4:26
Lauren: Sure.
4:27
Ben: diagnoses.
4:28
And yeah, I really wanted it to be a book that, that really would be
4:31
helpful for anyone, regardless of what diagnosis you have, or even if you
4:35
don't have a diagnosis at all, that I think so many of these things are
4:39
things that are just that broadly apply
4:43
Human being who thinks, who feels anxiety, right?
4:46
That's all of
4:47
Yeah, I think it felt like an important thing to write about,
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and also to remove it from that context of just being, hey, this is
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just for folks with OCD, or this is
4:56
With GAD, that it really applies to anyone.
4:59
Laura: Yeah, I love what you just shared and it's so interesting that you
5:02
brought this up because I've actually run into Lauren's office, recently here
5:07
and just, we've talked about some of the overlap, some of the ways that the
5:11
DSM gets it wrong, whether it's, or some of the things that it misses the
5:14
mark on, so to speak, with GAD or OCD.
5:17
And we see that oftentimes as well with eating disorders, right, where
5:21
it's just not a full enough picture for all of the nuances that make us human.
5:27
And I love, I think you hit the nail on the head with how you wrote the
5:30
book and the practicality of it.
5:32
I think it's practical for licensed clinicians to improve
5:37
the way that they practice.
5:38
And it's practical for someone like my husband that isn't a therapist.
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He jokes that he like tries to be a therapist sometimes, I'm like
5:44
no babe, you're not a therapist.
5:46
Yeah, it's practical for him too that maybe isn't familiar
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with some of the clinical jargon that we tend to get taught.
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So I think he really did a beautiful job of that transdiagnostic approach
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and the practicality of it as well.
6:00
Ben: thank you.
6:01
yeah I agree.
6:03
Not that I did a fantastic, I think I did a
6:04
Laura: You're like, yes, I did.
6:05
Yeah.
6:05
I did great.
6:06
Ben: but no I agree that I think it's important it to work for
6:10
Lauren: Yeah.
6:11
Ben: and so yeah, there's I go every year to the OCD Foundation has an annual
6:15
conference and it, is unique in that it's for clinicians and researchers,
6:20
but then also for folks with lived experience and their family members.
6:24
And I really love that kind of breaking of those barriers
6:27
Lauren: Totally.
6:28
Ben: there really doesn't need to be, I don't want to have this
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proprietary information as a clinician.
6:34
I want my clients to know the research.
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I want them to know all the same things that I do.
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They don't have to be trained as a therapist, but I think
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it is important that they have access to all that information.
6:44
yeah, I don't want to be the gatekeeper of that
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Lauren: Sure.
6:47
Yeah.
6:48
Laura: And Lauren is our, so she's our clinical director in the practice and
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she trains Any new therapists that we hire whether they're licensed or an
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intern or a master's degree clinician.
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And one of the things that I think is so important to us, and it sounds
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like we practice similarly, right?
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But just this idea of providing psychoeducation to clients and
7:07
not withholding information.
7:08
And we are really big in our practice on Hey, this is the
7:12
intervention that we're teaching you and this is why we're doing it.
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Because as a client, historically in my own therapy, I've wanted to.
7:21
And Lauren is so skilled at teaching therapists to do that with clients.
7:26
Yeah.
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Ben: And I think this is certainly true of a lot of the folks who
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I work with OCD and anxiety.
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And I would imagine for you guys working with eating disorders,
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It's really hard work, these are not easy treatments, for sure,
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And I think it makes it really important that people understand the rationale
7:44
and why it's important, they understand there's an evidence base behind what
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we're doing, we're not just out here making stuff up and so yeah, I think it's
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probably true in general of therapy, but I think especially when the treatment
7:55
itself is Sometimes distressing.
7:58
It's sometimes really hard.
8:00
Yeah, I think people need to know why they're doing it.
8:02
Why would you do something that's that distressing if
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you don't have a good reason?
8:06
Lauren: Sure.
8:07
Yeah.
8:08
Ben: Yeah.
8:08
Laura: Yeah it's like going back to that willingness and motivation
8:11
Lauren, what were you gonna say?
8:12
Lauren: Now, Ben, I was just curious as we've been starting to talk about, this
8:17
topic a little bit more, what, in terms of that, so the title, Worrying is Optional.
8:22
I'm wondering if you could just speak a little bit more to what that means
8:26
Laura, because you were mentioning.
8:28
As you've been using this, because I use this in session,
8:30
I use stuff from this book.
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And every session, every single session that I have.
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And Laura, you were mentioning how, like, when you say the title of the book to
8:40
clients, I'm like, what do you, what does, what do you mean worrying is optional?
8:42
Because I think anxiety worrying worry, overwhelm, stress, all of
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that in that umbrella, like you said, because I think it can all, they
8:51
all overlap it can feel so helpless.
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It can feel so all consuming.
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I have no power in it.
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And so I'm just wondering, yeah, as as the expert in this really, like just
9:04
what are, yeah what does the title mean?
9:07
Ben: Yeah.
9:08
I'll be honest, and I don't know how much my publisher will
9:10
appreciate my honesty here, But I, It wasn't my top pick for the title.
9:15
And I think because, what I think you're alluding to here is that I think there
9:20
is this potential for people to hear that
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Lauren: Sure.
9:23
Ben: to interpret it almost as a oh, just stop.
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Just don't worry about it.
9:27
Oh, you don't need to worry about that, it's fine.
9:29
And that certainly is not what I, that's not what I mean by the
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But yeah, I think it does have that potential to get interpreted in that
9:34
One of the things I don't love about it, but think what I was trying to
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get at with it, and I'll tell you the title that I think I had pitched
9:43
to them, which they didn't want, but which I think speaks more to what I was
9:48
trying to get at, was something like dismantling worry, or deconstructing
9:52
Lauren: Sure.
9:53
Ben: Which I think was really trying to get at this idea that there, there is
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this kind of cycle that perpetuates worry.
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Some of it we don't control, some of it just happens,
10:02
Lauren: hmm.
10:02
Ben: automatic, it's involuntary, it just shows up.
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But then there is this other part of it that is more volitional, where it
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can be a more deliberate process, we actually do have some control over that.
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And by, by tackling that part of it, We can disengage from worrying.
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And I know in the book I, belabor this point that there is there's
10:26
worrying, there's worry the noun, and then there's worrying
10:30
Lauren: hmm.
10:30
Ben: And those are two different things, right?
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So I think that idea that there is worry, there are, Unwanted,
10:35
distressing thoughts that show up.
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They're uncomfortable.
10:38
They're anxiety provoking.
10:41
that part of it, that's just part of
10:43
Lauren: Sure.
10:43
Ben: of being human with a brain.
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We're gonna have that experience sometimes.
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And I, I sometimes joke with people I hope you have worries.
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I hope you have stuff that you care about.
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Lauren: Mm hmm.
10:52
Ben: things that are important to you.
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I think
10:54
Lauren: Totally.
10:54
Ben: of building a meaningful life, is
10:57
When you notice those thoughts and you engage with them in some way, right?
11:01
You pick it up, you examine it, you do something with it,
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it's a more active process.
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And I think a lot of people do this automatically.
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It becomes habit and so the thought shows up and then they just go
11:14
down that kind of path of worrying.
11:17
And I think, The thing that I'm always trying to convey to people,
11:20
I think in the book and just with clients in general, that I, just
11:25
because something is automatic, that doesn't mean it's inevitable.
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We have lots of habits.
11:30
We have lots of things we do automatically.
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That doesn't mean we can't change those things.
11:34
We can't work on them.
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We can't become more intentional and make that a different process.
11:40
And so I think that's what worrying is optional.
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It's supposed to be about.
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It's like that idea of Hey, Worry, hey, this is gonna happen.
11:47
Worrying, that's a little different.
11:49
Lauren: Yeah.
11:50
Yeah.
11:51
I
11:52
Ben: think they came up with a pretty fun tagline which was something to the effect
11:56
of worry happens, worrying is optional.
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And I, that, that rings more true for me.
12:01
Yeah.
12:03
Lauren: the title.
12:05
Laura: I do, too.
12:05
I
12:06
Lauren: I think that it can, I think it's, I think it's clever because maybe
12:12
if somebody looks at the title and kind of interprets it that original
12:15
way that you had said, there can be a spark of wait a second, what?
12:20
Right?
12:20
And then pick it up and what is this about?
12:22
And kind of start reading it.
12:23
Oh, this is it.
12:24
And that can be a grab to like actually start engaging with the book.
12:28
So I think it's clever and I like it.
12:30
So I do appreciate it.
12:32
And I think As I'm just reflecting on the book, because I did just
12:36
recently finish listening to it.
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I plan to buy it just to, to have it in hard copy and I like words on paper.
12:42
I think, generally speaking, what, the overall theme that I feel like really
12:48
resonated with me, and I feel like that has been showing up a lot in my
12:52
sessions with my client, is this idea of empowerment, that we are empowered
12:56
to make a choice in How we engage with the thoughts, how we disengage with
13:01
the thoughts, the value and the power that we do place on our thoughts.
13:05
And that can be such a game changer.
13:07
I think that is where our power lies, Is that awareness
13:09
and then taking that action.
13:11
And that has been really helpful.
13:14
As I was reading it, that, that kind of just resonated with me in my own story
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and just different seasons in my life.
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But I think that sense of empowerment that we can help our clients start
13:24
cultivating around maybe their excessive worrying or high anxiety or OCD
13:30
compulsions, ruminating, all of that is such a foundational piece, I think,
13:35
to, to that work with anxiety yeah
13:38
Ben: Yeah, agreed.
13:39
Ray and
13:40
I think for so many people, I think worrying, anxiety, I think
13:46
sometimes it's all that we know.
13:47
Lived a whole lifetime just assuming that this is how it is.
13:52
That I think We don't get to look inside other people's brains, we don't know what
13:55
they're up to, and so we, I think, often just don't question our own experience
13:59
We assume, oh yeah I worry, I'm a worrier, that's what I do, and I think
14:03
sometimes we miss that we actually do have some ability to shift that a bit.
14:08
Lauren: Mmhhmhhm shove it up my ass.
14:12
Ben: I think sometimes we can have a perfectionistic approach
14:15
to that, in saying that oh I'll never be someone who's worry free.
14:19
Screw it.
14:20
What's the point?
14:20
Right?
14:20
Like that.
14:21
So that means I shouldn't bother trying.
14:23
I shouldn't try to make some incremental progress in moving
14:27
towards worrying less, right?
14:29
That it becomes this all or nothing thing.
14:32
I think I give this example in the book.
14:33
If not, I give it a lot in person, but I always say yeah I'm not
14:37
going to be Michael Jordan, right?
14:38
Like I'm what I'm in my forties.
14:40
I'm five, seven, right?
14:41
I think my chances are right?
14:44
Like it's probably not going to happen.
14:46
But that doesn't mean I can't get better at basketball, right?
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Like I can go out and practice and I'm sure if I do that, I'll be better
14:54
than I am right here right now.
14:56
Lauren: Sure.
14:56
Ben: be Michael Jordan?
14:57
Probably not, but that's okay.
15:00
Right?
15:00
That doesn't mean that it's not worth
15:03
Lauren: Mmhhmm.
15:03
Ben: and I think that's often true of and worry.
15:06
If you're someone who struggles with these things, What are the chances you're
15:10
gonna be free of worry and anxiety?
15:13
Yeah, probably not great.
15:15
I don't know that's probably not likely, but I, you certainly can get better at
15:20
Lauren: Mmhhm.
15:21
Ben: Minimize the footprint that
15:22
In your life.
15:24
Lauren: Yeah.
15:25
Laura: We talk to clients so much.
15:27
In the practice just about agency and empowerment and those behaviors that
15:32
either are maladaptive or adaptive, right?
15:34
So how are clients responding to their anxiety in the first place?
15:38
And even I hear so much hope in that, right?
15:41
We do, we talk a lot about hope on the Becoming Anchored podcast of Hey it's okay
15:46
that you don't have to be Michael Jordan.
15:47
And there's still hope in the process.
15:49
And I think A lot of our work as clinicians is cultivating and
15:53
instilling hope in our clients.
15:55
So I love that you talked about that.
15:57
Can you've mentioned the worry cycle.
15:59
Can, I just loved that graphic.
16:01
You probably know which one I'm talking about in the book.
16:03
Just for our listeners that may not be in therapy or may be newer
16:06
to therapy and aren't familiar with what the worry cycle is.
16:11
Can you talk a little bit more about the stages of the worry cycle that
16:15
you've highlighted in the book?
16:17
Ben: Yeah.
16:17
And so I think it's really important for people to understand.
16:22
perpetuates worry?
16:23
And so I think a lot of people have this conception of worrying or anxiety
16:29
as it being just either it's just, it's a biological thing, it's all
16:33
genetic, or it's the result of an experience, or how we were raised.
16:37
Which is not to say that those things aren't part of it, they
16:39
Lauren: Sure.
16:40
Mhm.
16:42
Ben: but think with those things, We miss out on agency, right?
16:45
Like that, hey how we were raised is how we were raised.
16:48
The genetics we have that's what we have, right?
16:50
And I don't mean to say that those things aren't interesting
16:52
or they're not worth exploring, there's very little to do with those
16:56
Lauren: Mhm.
16:58
Sure.
16:59
Ben: and so I think is why I do a lot of behavioral work, is because there's
17:02
a lot, there's a lot of agency there.
17:03
Lauren: Yeah.
17:04
Ben: you can do.
17:05
And so
17:05
Lauren: Totally.
17:06
Ben: so that worry cycle, I think, is really helpful in drawing this clearer
17:10
line around what we have control over and what we don't have control over.
17:15
And so I, what I see a lot with anxiety, with OCD, it's just people
17:19
trying to exert control in places where they have no control at
17:23
Lauren: Mhm.
17:23
Mhm.
17:25
Mhm.
17:27
Mhm.
17:29
Mhm.
17:31
Ben: down, so we have Thoughts that show up.
17:34
And sometimes this is the result of some external trigger, we encounter
17:39
You know something out in the world.
17:40
We're having conversation.
17:41
We're doing something.
17:42
We're watching a movie right there.
17:44
Sometimes it's an external thing We also have brains that are just constantly
17:49
coming up with all sorts of crap, right?
17:51
So like sometimes there's a trigger sometimes it is just our brains doing
17:55
their thing throwing random thoughts at us either way This is a part of the cycle
18:01
that we don't control, so the thoughts that just arise in our brains just happen.
18:07
Our brains are amazing content creators.
18:09
They're always coming up with new stuff, right?
18:11
That's what they do So that part of the cycle we don't control.
18:15
It's just happening.
18:16
It's automatic and then Often, we'll have some kind of emotional response to that.
18:22
That thought might evoke anxiety, it might evoke disgust, or shame, or
18:27
any number of emotional experiences.
18:30
And as therapists, we tend to focus on those uncomfortable experiences.
18:33
I'll also note we do have random thoughts about nice things sometimes.
18:37
We do have random thoughts about puppies and rainbows, and that's lovely.
18:41
People just don't usually bring that to therapy.
18:43
Laura: therapy, yeah.
18:43
Ben: distressing.
18:44
They don't do compulsive stuff as a result of it.
18:46
But it does happen.
18:47
But we're thinking much more about these thoughts that are uncomfortable.
18:50
They're, again, they're starting that worry process.
18:54
So we have a thought, then we have some feeling that's uncomfortable.
18:59
And then understandably, we want to do something to make that distress go
19:03
Uncomfortable.
19:03
That's a perfectly natural reaction.
19:05
Most of us prefer.
19:06
Comfort to discomfort.
19:08
That's, again, that tracks, that's just being human.
19:11
Lauren: yup, mhm,
19:12
Ben: so we do something to make it go away.
19:13
Sometimes that's trying to push the thought away.
19:15
Sometimes it's just trying to remove ourselves from that experience.
19:19
Sometimes it's avoidance.
19:20
We're not doing it in the first place.
19:22
But we do something to reach that equilibrium.
19:24
We don't want to feel uncomfortable, so let's do something to get comfort.
19:29
But the trick there, and this is where the cycle part happens, that by
19:34
doing something to make it go away, we're unfortunately reinforcing it,
19:38
where we're perpetuating this cycle.
19:40
So I talk about this a lot with OCD, and I think that's, for me,
19:45
the most kind of straightforward way of thinking about this.
19:47
So if I am worried about contamination or germs, disease, something like
19:52
that, if I go touch a doorknob and say, Oh no I'm going to get, I'm going to
19:55
get sick from touching this doorknob.
19:58
And then I go wash my hands.
20:01
And now my distress goes away.
20:02
I feel better.
20:03
What's actually happening in that moment is my brain is learning that hand wash
20:08
is the reason that you're safe, right?
20:10
Like it's adding these terms and conditions.
20:12
It's saying, Hey, this thing that you did, that's the only reason you're
20:15
Lauren: yeah
20:16
Ben: and so with OCD, we do what's called exposure and response prevention.
20:19
And so we would then practice touching that doorknob and
20:22
then not washing our hands.
20:24
And when we do that, now we get to see, Oh, you touch the doorknob.
20:28
You were worried you were going to get sick, you felt this anxiety,
20:31
but then you didn't get sick.
20:32
And so now our brain gets to learn, oh, right, you're not
20:36
safe because of the handwashing.
20:37
You're safe because that wasn't dangerous in the first place.
20:40
Lauren: right,
20:40
Ben: nothing going on there.
20:42
And so when we do things to make that distress go away, sending
20:46
these mixed messages to our brain.
20:48
We're getting relief in the moment, but we're actually, reinforcing for our brains
20:52
that there was danger there in the first
20:55
place and that we needed to do this thing to make it
20:57
Lauren: yeah,
20:59
Ben: I sometimes think of it like a like algorithm like if you're if
21:03
you go on Facebook or Instagram or whatever and you get an ad for shoes
21:08
Lauren: mhm,
21:09
Ben: and you click on that
21:10
Lauren: Huh,
21:12
Ben: You know what's gonna
21:12
Lauren: yea,
21:12
Ben: right you're gonna get more ads for shoes They're gonna
21:15
Lauren: literally, yeah.
21:19
Ben: Yeah, right, they know, right, it's a, the algorithm,
21:21
it's a little scary, but I,
21:23
Laura: It really is.
21:24
Ben: And so the algorithm is learning, right, it's watching your behavior,
21:28
and it's adjusting and this is what our brains are doing constantly, so
21:31
when our brain throws a thought in our direction, And we react, right?
21:36
Like we say, Oh, I got to make that thought go away.
21:37
Or Oh, whoa, look at that thought.
21:39
That's really distressing.
21:40
Our brain is learning.
21:41
That thought was important.
21:43
It was significant.
21:44
Our brain is going to keep throwing more of that thought in our direction.
21:47
Just like the ads for shoes, right?
21:48
Like it's learning based on our response.
21:51
And so as you can imagine, if you want less ads for shoes,
21:55
like You gotta scroll by, right?
21:56
That's the only way to do it.
21:57
You have to keep going otherwise you're gonna keep getting them and I think
22:00
the same thing happens with the random thoughts that are showing up in our minds.
22:04
If we want to get to that place where we're getting fewer of these thoughts or
22:09
just our brain is not evoking the, setting off that anxiety system, we have to scroll
22:13
by, we have to not react in that way.
22:16
We need a more intentional response.
22:18
Yeah.
22:18
Laura: so good.
22:20
Ben: Yeah.
22:20
so that's the cycle, right?
22:21
So I think it's, again, I think the misstep that people make is in trying to
22:25
control the initial thoughts or trying to control the feeling that shows up.
22:30
And what we really want to be controlling is this response
22:32
that's perpetuating the cycle.
22:34
That's where we really want to put our energy.
22:36
Yeah.
22:40
Lauren: Like we talk with our clients about all the time our thoughts show up.
22:44
Our thoughts are sometimes automatic.
22:47
Our thoughts and our feelings and our emotions are what they
22:51
are and we can't control them.
22:54
If we could control them, we wouldn't have any of these issues, right?
22:57
Yeah.
22:58
Yeah.
22:58
And so it's really helping our clients learn to shift from.
23:03
Putting so much focus and so much value on the thought itself that is distressing
23:08
and shifting back to what is in our control, what actually is in our control.
23:13
You, there was a, there's a quote at towards the end of the book.
23:17
I was driving when I was listening to it and I was like, Oh my
23:19
gosh, I had to write that down.
23:21
And so I like put it in my phone real quick.
23:22
I can't remember the exact words, but it was some, I'm not going to get it
23:26
right, but it was some, it was something about this whole process is about
23:30
noticing the thoughts, right, and then redirecting yourself back to your life.
23:37
And I was like, yeah, that's it.
23:38
That's it.
23:39
Because that's what we're wanting and hoping for our clients is that they
23:42
can get back to their life, right?
23:45
That mindful, that present mindfulness piece that, you did such a good job
23:48
of kind of wrapping the book up with that, the, and the self compassion.
23:53
Yeah.
23:54
Laura: Yeah.
23:54
And that's a s Go ahead, Ben.
23:57
No, you go ahead.
23:58
Ben: Yeah, I think Being in that place where you can notice
24:03
thoughts It's really tricky,
24:06
Lauren: Yeah.
24:07
Ben: It takes a lot of practice, and it's a where, again, I think a lot of
24:11
people just assume, hey, it's automatic I don't have, I don't have the space to
24:15
respond intentionally I, by the time I notice it, I'm already mired in worrying,
24:20
right, it just happens so quickly.
24:23
I'm always quick to say yeah, I believe it.
24:25
That sounds right.
24:26
I think that's where a lot of people start with this stuff.
24:29
And I think it takes a lot of really deliberate practice to slow down
24:33
that And as we're talking about it here, we're talking about it like
24:37
it's these really These distinct parts, here's step one and then
24:41
two and Right.
24:41
like but in reality doesn't work that way like this stuff happens in a split
24:45
second and so I think it takes a lot of practice of cultivating awareness and
24:50
getting more mindful and just getting to that place where we have just a little
24:54
bit of space to respond differently and you know I think most people start out
24:59
in a place where those thoughts are just, they're immersive, they happen so quickly
25:04
and they come with such intensity of emotion that people just get sucked right
25:08
in, and I think just to be able to get to that place where we're saying, hey, a
25:11
thought is a thought I, I don't have to do anything with that, and I know I talk
25:16
in the book a lot about diffusion, right?
25:18
Creating some separation from these thoughts and seeing
25:20
them for what they are.
25:22
And I think a lot of that involves letting go of the content.
25:24
If the content is You know, I'm worried some awful thing is gonna happen, or
25:28
I'm worried I'm a terrible person, or, I think some of these thoughts are
25:32
really scary, but I, again, I think at the end of the day, that thought of,
25:36
what if I'm a horrible person is not any different than the thought of what
25:39
if I'm a banana or an astronaut, right?
25:41
They're all thoughts, right?
25:42
They have whatever meaning we give them, and we don't We're
25:46
not obligated to engage with it.
25:48
We don't have to argue with it.
25:50
Always think of it like in court when you like plead the fifth, right?
25:53
Like that you, you don't have to make a case for yourself at all, right?
25:56
Like you can just say no, thanks.
25:57
I don't want to have this argument with myself and I don't have to.
26:01
And I think that That final step of just saying, hey I'm
26:04
gonna come back to my life.
26:05
Now, in the present, being the person who I want to be.
26:09
That's really all I need to concern myself with,
26:11
Lauren: Yeah.
26:11
Ben: have to have this kind of internal argument with myself
26:14
in order to move forward.
26:15
I can just go ahead and move forward.
26:18
Laura: I love what you talked about in terms of just the values
26:21
piece in the book, because we talk, we do so much of that work.
26:24
We do a lot of acceptance and commitment therapy in the practice,
26:27
and that just, that can support clients in terms of accessing
26:32
motivation so well, I think, right?
26:34
What is my why?
26:35
Why am I doing this hard thing that's uncomfortable, that's
26:38
tough, like we've talked about?
26:40
And I also love that you're normalizing the fact that, It's not just Oh, do these
26:46
steps and then you'll be better, right?
26:48
It's a two steps backward, three steps forward type of process.
26:51
We oftentimes will share with our clients that it's messy, it's hard.
26:55
There's going to be times when you feel discouraged and each time when
27:00
you do engage with a thought, maybe it's a time for us to learn from that.
27:04
and tweak it slightly moving forward, learning to pivot.
27:08
Those are all kind of examples of language that I'll use, and I'm sure you
27:11
do as well, and I know Lauren does too, just, hey, how can we learn from these
27:15
experiences versus judging ourselves or
27:17
Lauren: hmm.
27:18
Laura: when the process does get difficult.
27:21
Lauren: Yeah.
27:21
Ben: Yeah.
27:22
Lauren: Totally.
27:23
Ben: Yep, and I at the end of the day, yeah, these are all to use.
27:29
But there's no, I don't wanna say there's no mastery of it,
27:33
but not in any perfect kind of
27:35
Right?
27:35
I think, going back to Michael Jordan, right, guy doesn't hit every shot, right?
27:40
The best of the best they mess up, they have bad games, right?
27:42
That's how it works.
27:44
And I think this is true for everyone, right?
27:46
That I think practicing a bunch will ensure that you get better at it,
27:51
it becomes more manageable, right?
27:53
You'll build those skills.
27:54
But yeah, there's no point where we will just say okay, mission accomplished.
27:58
I, again, the anxiety's gone, or the worry's gone, right?
28:01
It doesn't, Yeah, it's an ongoing process, and yeah, it will
28:05
inevitably involve some slip ups and,
28:07
Lauren: Hahahaha.
28:09
Uhhh.
28:10
Ben: We'll come up with some intervention, but then that thing
28:13
becomes compulsive, and now we have to stop doing that intervention, we
28:15
need to do something else, because it's stopped working in some ways.
28:20
And I think that's, for, for, that's not just OCD, I think
28:23
that's for all of us, right?
28:24
You use these things when they work, as long as they work, and then at
28:28
some point hey, maybe they won't anymore, and you have to adjust or
28:31
adapt or, yeah, find some new tweak to make it more effective for yourself.
28:36
Yeah, I, I think in addition to wanting to make the book trans diagnostic,
28:42
like applying to lots of people, I also was very intentional in making
28:45
it a trans theoretical approach.
28:49
Just in that, I think so many of these theoretical models we
28:52
have they're tailored to, the average person with depression.
28:56
The average person with OCD.
28:59
And, in reality, people are just much more complicated, and there are so many
29:03
different processes that are driving worry, to boil it down to, Oh, you
29:08
worry because you're anxious, or you worry because you need control, or
29:11
because you're perfectionistic, or, right, not any one of those things,
29:15
right, there's, I have yet to meet the person who can boil their problem
29:18
down to just one particular problem.
29:20
And so I think just knowing, hey, we going to have to be nimble, we're going
29:24
to have to adapt, and, we're going to tailor our interventions to the
29:28
individual person, to the individual moment, and that's a messy process.
29:33
It's not as simple as just, hey, take this kind of manual and go through it.
29:37
It really does involve this of active approach to it that, gets messy.
29:45
Laura: One, I loved that about the book too, you talk about principles
29:48
from ERP, ACT, inference based, right?
29:51
Like you did.
29:52
mindfulness.
29:53
So there's so much there that we can use.
29:56
And I think even as clinicians, sometimes we can think that, we can even become
30:01
rigid of okay, this person needs cognitive diffusion when in reality
30:04
they might need something, a dabble from all the different therapies, right?
30:08
And so I love that you talk so well about that in the book too.
30:13
Yeah.
30:14
Can you share?
30:16
Go ahead.
30:16
Ben: yeah.
30:17
I was just gonna say I don't, I feel like I'm being to the publisher.
30:21
I have wonderful experiences with my publisher, but another thing
30:24
that they pitched where I was like no, I don't think that's it.
30:28
Oh maybe you wanna up with a name for this.
30:30
Oh, it's the Ben Eckstein approach to whatever.
30:32
Give it a label.
30:34
And it's no that's the whole point.
30:35
Is that it's not one
30:37
Lauren: right?
30:38
Mm
30:38
Ben: a bunch of things.
30:39
And I don't think we need to give that a name, right?
30:42
I think it's really just saying no we are all unique.
30:45
And we
30:45
Lauren: Yeah.
30:48
Ben: yeah.
30:50
Laura: One last question I had for you, just that non engagement
30:53
piece that I think is not maybe taught enough in graduate school.
30:57
I
30:57
know I wasn't taught it, and I know Lauren and I have both done
31:00
our own therapy and own work.
31:02
But it's interesting because a lot of these principles from ERP aren't
31:06
necessarily taught, and it's what we learn once we specialize or have
31:09
amazing supervision or training.
31:12
So for anyone that maybe isn't in therapy and hasn't started.
31:15
Working on anxiety or OCD, I'm curious if you're open to sharing
31:19
just a brief one on one about non engagement responses and what those
31:23
are and the purpose of them as well.
31:28
Ben: and I agree, I think this is a thing that doesn't get taught a lot.
31:34
And I appreciate, in some ways, why, because I think there is
31:37
some nuance to it, and I think
31:38
And I think a thing that comes up a lot, particularly with anxiety
31:42
and OCD, and I would imagine with eating disorders as well that we're
31:45
trying to walk this line where we don't want to engage with this stuff.
31:50
But we also don't want to avoid, right?
31:52
And so
31:52
We, if the solution to anxiety or eating disorders or any of these things is,
31:57
okay, don't go near any of the triggers.
32:00
Just
32:00
Lauren: Right.
32:01
Ben: from triggers.
32:02
Yeah, hey, that might get you some relief in the short term, but ultimately
32:06
it's not helping you to be more capable of navigating these things.
32:10
and so I think the nuance of something like a non engagement
32:12
response is like, we're trying to come up with this way to respond to
32:18
a trigger, to respond to a moment of being pulled into worry or anxiety.
32:24
And we're going to disengage without.
32:27
Lauren: Mm-Hmm?
32:28
Ben: it's really tricky to do that.
32:30
Um, and so I think within that we need some amount of kind of
32:34
acknowledgement of the thoughts and feelings that we're experiencing.
32:37
We
32:37
Laura: Right.
32:38
Ben: Pushing them away, blocking out our eyes and ears, right?
32:40
Like that we want to still have them present and something that we
32:44
acknowledge and we make space for.
32:47
But we're being really, at the same time, we're being really mindful of those things
32:50
that might be perpetuating that cycle.
32:53
And so I think that's what non engagement is really about, is saying, hey, I'm gonna
32:56
find a way to be in contact with this trigger, this thing that's distressing.
33:02
I'm not then gonna do anything that, that perpetuates the cycle.
33:05
And again, I think there's a million different ways to do that.
33:08
But I think they all, in some ways, involve acceptance of
33:12
those thoughts and feelings.
33:13
We can't be blocking them out and pushing them away.
33:16
But then I think there's also this shifting of our focus
33:19
back to what we're doing.
33:21
And just to make it practical.
33:22
I think at its most basic version it might be Thank you brain for that thought.
33:27
I am feeling really uncomfortable.
33:29
I noticed the thought I'm going to get back to doing what I need to do right now.
33:33
Right.
33:33
And so just something to that effect, right?
33:35
I think that's the sentiment we're trying to tap into.
33:37
And I think we can flesh that out a bit, a little bit.
33:40
I think sometimes people will fold in things like values.
33:43
So this is really uncomfortable right now, but it's really
33:46
important to me that I start.
33:47
breaking that cycle of anxiety and getting back to living my life, where
33:50
it's really important to me that I show up for my partner, and so I'm gonna be
33:54
present in this conversation right now, rather than turned inward to my thoughts.
33:58
I think it's, there are lots of different ways to do it.
34:01
I think it works best when you personalize it, where you find the
34:04
things that kind of click for you.
34:06
I, for me I think the, that fine line between kind of distraction and avoidance,
34:14
I think is important to notice here.
34:16
And so I think with distraction, again, this is more about blocking it out.
34:20
It's saying, Hey, I'm gonna go do this other thing so I don't have
34:22
to think about that thing, right?
34:24
And if I just think about this thing, the other stuff will go away.
34:28
And I think shifting our focus we're we might be turning towards another
34:34
thing, but it's really about that.
34:37
that mindset, that it's not saying, Hey, I need to block it out and push it away.
34:40
It's saying this other thing more important to me.
34:43
So that's where my focus is going.
34:44
So the example I often give, I can't remember if it's in the book
34:47
or not, but I, but it's like when you get a mosquito bite, right?
34:50
And it's like this really, it's itchy.
34:53
It's uncomfortable.
34:54
It wants to commandeer your focus.
34:57
If you sit there the whole time saying Don't think about the
35:00
mosquito bite, That's not gonna work.
35:02
And same thing if instead you engage with it, You scratch it, you do all
35:05
the things, That's also not gonna work.
35:07
The only way we really navigate that is just to get Immersed in living our lives.
35:11
And eventually that mosquito bite Kind of recedes to the background.
35:15
And it's not because we pushed it out, It's not because we tried to
35:18
stop thinking about it, It's just because something else happens.
35:22
Came to the forefront.
35:23
We were shining our attention spotlight on some other thing, and we stopped
35:27
noticing the mosquito bite, even though it's there the whole time.
35:30
It's not going anywhere.
35:31
And I think that's what we're trying to do.
35:33
We're trying to get to this place where we're not pushing things away,
35:36
but we're not engaging with it.
35:38
And I think that's the non engagement, like with the mosquito bite.
35:41
We're not doing anything with it.
35:42
We're just saying, Hey, this isn't my priority.
35:44
I'm turning my attention to other
35:47
Lauren: Yeah.
35:47
Ben: So yeah I think you have to find the strategies that work, but ultimately
35:51
I think they come back to what we were talking about before and saying, hey,
35:54
this all starts with slowing it down, with getting more mindful with having
35:58
that ability to respond rather than react, that we're not just reacting
36:03
to a feeling and pushing it away.
36:05
Instead we're crafting a much more deliberate response that
36:08
aligns better with our values and what's important to us.
36:12
Laura: Such rich information.
36:13
I can't wait to listen to this episode back again.
36:16
I'm already like, yeah, I can't wait for it to come out.
36:18
Yeah, we walk that line, too, quite frequently with clients, too.
36:21
A lot of our clients, can be pretty avoidant, and so we
36:24
don't want to perpetuate that.
36:26
It's a tricky thing to hold, I think, as clinicians, and as our
36:30
clients, they're doing the work.
36:32
But yeah, I love that you talked about that.
36:35
Thank you so much for your time today.
36:37
It has just been a joy getting to know you and hearing your expertise and wisdom.
36:41
Like I said, I can't wait to listen to this episode when it comes out.
36:45
But yeah, I would love to hear how our listeners can find you,
36:49
anything that you want to share about your practice or your book.
36:53
Yeah.
36:53
So whatever you want to share.
36:55
Ben: Yeah.
36:55
So let's see.
36:56
Our practice is called Bull City Anxiety and OCD treatment Center.
37:00
And we are freshly moved to Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
37:04
And our website is bull city anxiety.com.
37:08
And then social media, same.
37:10
It's Instagram, it's at Bull City Anxiety.
37:13
If you just look for Bull City anxiety, you'll find us wherever you need to go.
37:17
And the book, you might imagine, it's on Amazon You can, I'll throw the publisher a
37:22
bone after I've thrown them under the bus.
37:24
You can also find it on the publisher's website if you want to go to new
37:27
harbinger.com, I assume on there as well.
37:30
But.
37:31
Most people will probably find it on Amazon, which is
37:33
Laura: Awesome.
37:34
Ben: yeah.
37:35
Laura: Awesome.
37:36
We do close, we like to close with some homework and an
37:40
affirmation for our listeners.
37:41
How we, I'm sure that you guys incorporate this as well in your facility, but we try
37:47
to cultivate just that awareness around Hey, what's it out to you in session?
37:50
What do you specifically want to work on?
37:53
So then you're welcome to provide both of those or one of those things and
37:58
then we'll supplement as we see fit.
38:02
Ben: Homework assignment.
38:03
Yeah, let's see.
38:06
I, so what I see a lot is people try to do everything at once,
38:11
Lauren: Mm-Hmm.
38:11
Ben: That they, as much as they know they can't just stop
38:15
They still want to try to just stop worrying, right?
38:17
Like it's so tempting
38:19
Lauren: Great.
38:21
Ben: with awareness.
38:22
And so I think when I think that the worrying is optional thing.
38:28
Okay, we're going to stop worrying.
38:30
people want to wake up, say, okay, Monday.
38:32
No more worrying.
38:33
I'm done worrying.
38:34
And it's no that's not going to, you can't do that.
38:38
And where I think people need to start is by finding some smaller chunks of time.
38:45
And I often will have people do like a worrying log and I don't
38:49
need to know every single thing that you're worrying about.
38:51
This is not an exercise in just writing down all of your worries.
38:54
But I think instead just noticing, hey, where are the places where
38:58
you catch yourself worrying?
38:59
Is it on the drive to work?
39:01
Is it when you're in bed at night?
39:03
Is it when you get home and there's nothing going on and
39:07
you sit on the couch, right?
39:08
Like I, I think just getting clear on, Hey, like, where are these?
39:12
Like hot spots where this is happening a lot And I find that it usually is
39:16
when there's a little more downtime.
39:18
Sometimes it's when there's more stress But I think just getting clear on hey,
39:22
where are those moments in your day?
39:24
And I think it will help for most people to actually keep a log, you know You
39:27
don't have to do it forever But do it long enough that you feel like you have
39:31
a representative sample of a day in the life What does it typically look like?
39:35
And then I think you want to, you know When you do find these interventions
39:39
that work, whether it's, again, practicing a non engagement response or
39:42
whatever it might be, focusing on one particular place rather than just trying
39:48
to do it in this global kind of way.
39:50
No one is going to have success saying, okay, Monday, no more worrying.
39:54
But you might have some success saying, hey, when I catch myself
39:57
worrying in the shower, I'm going to use this intervention, right?
40:01
And it's really specific, it's time sensitive, and
40:04
it's a more achievable goal.
40:06
And I appreciate if you don't worry in the shower, is that going to.
40:09
Change your life forevermore.
40:11
I don't know, maybe, but probably not, right?
40:13
But I think We, we have to start somewhere.
40:16
We have to start with these smaller increments.
40:18
And so what my assignment would be, just focus on that awareness piece.
40:23
Figure out, hey, where are these times where you're catching
40:26
yourself doing this stuff?
40:27
And then go from there.
40:28
Pick one specific thing.
40:33
Yeah.
40:33
Laura: I love it.
40:34
Lauren, do you want to close with an affirmation or would you like for me
40:37
Lauren: Do you have one?
40:40
Laura: Yeah, I had a couple ones that
40:41
Lauren: Okay, great.
40:41
Laura: is pretty basic because I know Ben is so well spoken and I, it's
40:45
a little tricky to follow up with all the wisdom that you've shared.
40:48
But one thing that was coming to mind just now, That we really honed in on today was
40:52
just like, my thoughts are just thoughts.
40:54
And again, that's not to trivialize the thought, right, or to minimize
40:57
the distress that might be there.
40:59
But it's that perspective of yeah, we do have thoughts you could have
41:02
the thought that you're a banana, like you shared, right, and we
41:05
know that's not actually truth.
41:07
So that one was coming up along with just this idea that we can
41:10
do hard things because this work is hard and yeah, we have to
41:14
consistently remind ourselves of that.
41:15
Yeah.
41:15
Yeah.
41:17
thank you so much, Ben, for your time today.
41:19
We know it's so valuable.
41:21
Yeah, of course.
41:22
We would love to have you back sometime.
41:24
Thank you again.
41:25
And thank you guys for being on the Becoming Anchored podcast today.
41:28
Lauren: Yeah.
41:29
Thanks, guys.
41:29
Bye.
41:31
Laura: Bye.
41:31
Ben: Bye.