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NPS, Contract Lawyers & Building "Elastic Capacity" with Jay Harrington · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, I'm talking about NPS. No, that's not my wrap name. It's a way to judge your law firm's viability around referrals in the interview. We've got Jay Harrington. Jay's got a new job, so we're discussing the gig economy in legal and how to staff up. On the counter program, it's Jay in the Harringtons. But next, NPS. The law firm perceptions of how clients view them is usually a complete reversal of how clients actually see them. Obviously, the fact that lawyers and legal consumers want different things is problematic for the lawyers. But one of the primary reasons that lawyers don't know what clients want from them is because they never ask their clients what they want from them. (01:16): Law firms don't often analyze data and act on it even if they collect it. But law firms can change their entire marketing structure by asking one simple question of each of their clients. Would you refer me? Net Promoter Score or NPS is a modern way to define brand loyalty. And yes, if you're asking your law firm is a brand. The crux of net promoter score is that it is a way to determine your customer's willingness to refer business to you from others. NPS is defined by the answer to a simple question. How likely would you be to refer us? Survey respondents need not provide a detailed analysis. They only need to offer up a number, respecting their willingness to make that referral from one, not likely at all, to 10, highly likely. Within that scale, your clients can be defined as promoters, nine to 10, passives, seven, eight, and detractors, one to six. (02:22): The thrust of the argument is that if your clients are recommending you and only your most ardent fans are, if they're not doing that, they're actively hurting your chances of getting business by not saying anything at all like the passives or by actively badmouthing you, like the detractors. NPS underscores a point that as a law firm owner, you need to do everything you can to create as many raving fans of your business as possible because everybody else is actively detracting from your referral marketplace. Knowing generally where your clients stand is important. For example, who's a promoter and who's a detractor? But the actual NPS score itself is derived by subtracting the percentage of detractors from the percentage of promoters. Thus, an NPS score can range from 100 very high to negative 100. Now let's not talk about that. If your NPS score is negative 100, turn off the show right now. (03:23): Now, here's the bad news. According to a prior iteration of the Clio Legal Trends Report, an annual report that comes out from the big box case management provider, the average NPS score for law firms is 25, and that's equal to the NPS score for wireless carriers and airlines and some other bad businesses that you might not be friendly with. What that means is that your clients feel about you the same way they feel about Verizon. Sorry, Verizon. Kind of suck. In other words, they don't like you. To provide some color for that number, credit card providers are at 23, also not good, and the aforementioned airlines are at 26. That means that people like airlines better than attorneys. Streaming media services, by the way, are near the top of the spectrum with an NPS score of 41. Wouldn't you rather have your clients thinking about you in the same way they think about Netflix rather than feeling about you the way they feel about Spirit Airlines if they survive the flight? (04:38): Of course, answering that question in the affirmative starts with asking just the one question of your existing clients. And once you've acquired your current MPS score, you can work to build it up. Maybe you're trying to reach the average law firm score, or maybe you have a lofter goal. Let's hope you do. And maybe you'll set another industry score as your target. Having the data will allow you to act on it and to bring to bear a more consumer-centric marketing approach than your competitors might be using. And that represents an immense competitive advantage in an industry jammed with cookie cutter law firms operating like it's still 1981. NPS is the first step in establishing your firm's likeability. Now, what's not to like about Jay Harrington of Latitude Legal? Let's find out. He's up next and we're talking about JOBs. Stay with us. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I'm simply going to now observe the maneuvers of our Pet Betaphish Santa Claus for the next several moments. (05:57): There he is over there doing Phish things. Well, I guess I can contemplate the mysteries of nature later. Let's interview our guest. Instead, that might be more exciting for everybody. Our guest today, making his first appearance on Legal Late Night is Jay Harrington. He's a partner at New Thing, Latitude Legal. Jay, welcome to the show. How you doing? Jay Harrington (06:19): Thanks, Jared. I'm doing really well. I know you're dealing with a bunch of snow out there, so hopefully your back's getting ready for the shovel then. Jared Correia (06:27): Yeah, I'll be in traction later, so thank you for that. I want to do a little bit of a deep dive with you because we've talked before. You've been on my podcast, I've been on your podcast, but let's go way back. You're a University of Michigan law school graduate, which I'm not sure I noticed that until today. Now, as a law graduate of Michigan, what are your feelings on the Ohio State University? Do you care? Is that more of an undergraduate thing? Is there a visceral hatred there? Jay Harrington (07:00): I guess the whole thing with the law school where it's not like you're starting drinking at eight in the morning and going to the football games Jared Correia (07:08): Over the weekend. Well, speak for yourself, but anyway, go Jay Harrington (07:11): Ahead. I studied hard, Jared. But no, actually I grew up a huge Notre Dame football fan. So I was neither a Jared Correia (07:19): Michigan Jay Harrington (07:20): Or Ohio State fan growing up. Yeah. Well, my dad grew up on the East Coast. He was sort of Irish Catholic. Everybody was a huge Notre Dame fan. And so I kind of, by osmosis, developed a love for the Irish and we used to go to a bunch of games. I was at the Catholics versus Convicts game against Miami. Oh, wowThat's crazy. If you remember that one. I was at the 1993 Florida State Notre Dame game. Charlie Ward when they were both- That's great game. Yeah. So in any event, my dad was in the FBI and he knew the chief of police of South Bend really well. So he would get us tickets for the field and I would be on the field for many of those major games. So in any event, I don't like Ohio State, but I don't hate Ohio State, if that makes sense. (08:14): I like how you're Jared Correia (08:15): Like, I'm not a Michigan fan, but fuck them anyway. Jay Harrington (08:20): Yeah. Well, I mean, I've got enough Michigan undergrad friends who kind of went down to Columbus and had a rough time. I mean, the Ohio State fans who come up to Ann Arbor have a rough time too, but I don't think it's quite as bad as going down there. Jared Correia (08:36): So you were probably like Lou Holtz era, Notre Jay Harrington (08:39): Dame? Yeah. Yeah. Tony Rice, Rocket Ismail, all those great teams. Yeah. Jared Correia (08:45): I didn't know your dad was in the FBI. That's amazing. I won't ask you any more questions about that. Jay Harrington (08:51): Oh yeah. Jared Correia (08:51): I'll talk to you. So you go to law school and then you come out and you work at big law. How was that? Yeah. Is that as terrible as people say it is or is that overblown? Jay Harrington (09:03): Well, I mean, it kind of just depends. I wouldn't say it was horrible. Actually, I thought my first five years at Skadden in the rear view was an awesome experience. And at the start, it was horrible because I was supposed to be an M&A lawyer. I'd done the summer associate gig there. This was back in ... My summer was when summer associate gigs were still super fun. It was all built around alcohol and just Jared Correia (09:38): Partying. Yeah. They really blew it out for you, right? Jay Harrington (09:41): Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. And I was supposed to be an M&A lawyer. Didn't really know what that meant, but I chose that. It sounded cool. But then my start date was September 17th, 2001. So nine eleven happened, and I got the call like, "You're now a corporate bankruptcy lawyer." So I'm like, "Okay, I don't know what that is either. So I guess I'll learn." But it was crazy. I mean, it was so busy, so stressful. Literally, when people say 80 hour weeks, sometimes they're exaggerating. I mean, this was just consistently, and I didn't know what I was doing. I was in the deep end because everyone was that busy. And so it was about three months of just pure ... If I got home to sleep, I couldn't because I was stressed out. And then it got a lot better. And what made it really, I think, a rewarding experience was I happened to just ... I mean, the restructuring group there was awesome. (10:44): So many great people, super talented. Everyone was ... If you had an issue, they would help, they would pitch in, they would give you guidance. So that, I mean, in retrospect, I always say to young law students when they ask, it's like, you can't always optimize for this with your first job, but always be thinking about, it's not about the practice you're in. It's about the people you're practicing with because unless you have some just passion for some practice area, which I don't know if many people do, it's the people you're working with day to day that make all the difference. And I happen to have a really good group. Yeah. Jared Correia (11:22): That's cool. I like how you cash that by saying, when I was there, it was fucking terrible. But looking back on it, I guess it was okay. Jay Harrington (11:30): Yeah. Yeah. That's like the remembering self. It's like you go on a really hard hike or something and your feet hurt and everything, but then you look back and you're like, "That was pretty sweet." Jared Correia (11:42): Yeah, it wasn't that bad. Okay. So you did that for five years, I think, right? I was at Skadden Jay Harrington (11:47): For five years. Yep. Jared Correia (11:48): Right. And then so you pop out and then you've had so many different experience in law practice because then I think you started your own firm after that, right? Jay Harrington (11:55): Yeah. Yeah. I was at Foley and Lardner in Detroit for a while after that. And then in 2009, early 2009, one of my best friends who also worked there, we went off and hung the shingle, which was a good time. You think financial crisis, not a good time to start something, but we were bankruptcy lawyers. And so in Detroit, GM and Chrysler were on the cusp of filing for bankruptcy. And our calculus was the fact that among all of the larger Detroit firms, almost everyone did some sort of work for Chrysler or GM, like products, liability or environmental work or whatever the case might be. So there was a ton of conflicts, and so we benefited from a lot of that. So yeah, that was a cool experience. Jared Correia (12:46): Small firm practice, harrowing in kind of a different way, right? Yeah. Because you got to handle all this stuff yourself. How was that adjustment for you? Jay Harrington (12:55): Yeah, it was challenging. I mean, right from the start, because we were sort of betting that we'd be busy, we hired before we even opened the door, like our first associate and a legal assistant. I mean, it wasn't a lot, but we took on a lease, we hired, we got all the ... So I mean, there was some investment involved with that, but again, I think we were confident that we would have enough work to service, to manage the financial aspect of it. But yeah, I mean, everything was a learning curve. I mean, that was back in the day where you had to get a phone system hooked up on your wall or a physical server in your office. Like physical Jared Correia (13:35): Phones and servers for the kids listening. Jay Harrington (13:38): Yeah. Yeah. And you'd have an IT guy in your office every four days just trying to figure out why something's not working. So yeah, I mean, it was a lot to manage. And then just, okay, billing software. I mean, everything, you learn everything requires figuring out. But in retrospect, I mean, again, that's difficult at the start, but then although my partner, he would laugh about this. I don't know if he'll listen to it, but I had actually had a little bit of a gap doing something a little more entrepreneurial before we started that. He came right from Foley and I mean, at least once a week I'd get a call. Oh shit. "My printer's not working again." And I'd walk down and I'd plug it in or I'd turn it off, turn it on. So I could see, I had at least a little bit of headstart on Dave. (14:32): Dave, if you're listening. Jared Correia (14:34): Dave, did you try to unplug it and plug it back in? Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny that ... I remember walking into offices back in the day and there's like the IT guy randomly sitting in the closet surrounded by like hundred wires. That's what it was like. Jay Harrington (14:47): Yeah. Wild Jared Correia (14:47): Times. It was Jay Harrington (14:48): Crazy. Yep, yep, yep. Just pulling wires through the walls and it was crazy. Jared Correia (14:54): All right. So you did that for a little bit and then you settled into probably what I'm guessing is your longest running gig, which is you had a consulting firm that you called Harrington. You'll have to tell me how you came up with that name. And you've been doing that for about two decades. What's that been like? Jay Harrington (15:14): Yeah, so that was an evolution. So there was a couple of aspects of that business still serving the legal industry. So we had a marketing agency on one side. That was where my wife was sort of a creative director and she really ran the show there. I mean, I contributed in some small ways, but if she's listening, she ran the show. But then we also did- Jared Correia (15:35): Giving credit to everybody. Jay Harrington (15:39): We did another thing, which was primarily me, which was coaching, consulting and training, which was all focused on business development. So we had the marketing agency that was doing the branding, website design development, and then coaching and consulting and training, which was primarily me. So I mean, that was, I guess, at least 12 or 13 years of that. And that was cool. I mean, it was easy, not easy, but it was easy to integrate into that role because we were still serving the same industry that I always worked in. So I had relationships and had opportunities to develop business and could bug the lawyers I knew to talk to the chief marketing officer and get us a gig or something like that. But it was fun. That was really building off the law firm an opportunity to just have kind of practice at entrepreneurship in a different domain. Jared Correia (16:37): Yes. It's always interesting to me when people have done something for so long and you kind of begin to associate with them with that. And then when I saw that you moved to Latitude, that's kind of a shock to me. I was like, whoa. Because I had just presumed that you would keep consulting forever and ever. So you did that for a really long time. What makes you leave something like that after so much investment and then move to another thing? Jay Harrington (17:05): Yeah. No, it's good. I thought I'd be doing that as well for the rest of my career. I mean, I turned 50 in September and- Happy birthday. Very believed. Yeah. Thank you. But no, I mean, this opportunity kind of arose and I didn't necessarily think I was going to do anything different, but I'm always open to talking and seeing and exploring new opportunities. So you know Alex Sue, I imagine, from LinkedIn. And I don't know if you know Alex personally, but he went there- I don't know if you've ever Jared Correia (17:42): Spoken Bob. Yeah. Jay Harrington (17:44): Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Great guy. He had gone to Latitude as their chief revenue officer maybe 18 months before I ended up joining. So we had a conversation and then I had the opportunity to talk with the CEO, visit Nashville where Latitude is headquartered, talk to more people, and then really at that point thought, "This is a cool company that's growing, great people. " Check some of those boxes. And then I really dug in to understand the market that it's serving and this market of what's typically called flexible legal talent, so contract, project-based engagement lawyers for in- house legal teams and law firms, it really seems like the market is really moving in the direction of that becoming more of a big part of the talent stack. You've got naturally law firms and corporations going to have a need for full-time sort of fixed headcount professionals, but this notion of building in this elastic capacity or flexible capacity into a workforce to more nimbly adjust to the variability of demand, to busyness, covering leaves of absence, and a lot of strategic AI integration, there's just all kinds of different ways in which we need someone who's got this particular skillset for nine months, and we don't want to add a full-time hire for this. (19:14): There's just more and more of that, I think, in this dynamic changing legal industry. So that sort of, I guess, thesis around where the market's moving and an interesting new space that I haven't worked in yet, recruiting with a big dose of business development associated with it, sounded like a really interesting Jared Correia (19:34): Role. Interesting. Okay. So I want to get back to that in a second, but how are you adjusting to the new role? Is it weird? Is it strange to have a boss? Is it different to be back in corporate America? Jay Harrington (19:47): Yeah. So yeah, it is different a little bit. It's been 20, maybe not quite that, almost 20 years since I've had been part of something that wasn't something that I started. And so that's an adjustment. I tell my wife, I had about 100% autonomy, (20:09): More or less, you got clients and you got all that, but in terms of being in a corporate setting, and now I have less, but it still feels like a tremendous amount of autonomy. I'm working remotely. Latitude has a structure where I think partners like myself have a lot of autonomy to do things. And so it's been an adjustment on that side of things, but ultimately it's been great. On the other hand, it's been kind of nice to be back part of a larger organization where I have things like an IT team and a marketing team and finance and all those things that I was just doing on my own. I had to fix my own printer. I mean, I still have to do that, but I have an IT team to call on when I have software issues or whatever. So that's been ... There's nothing's perfect. (21:06): There's always trade-offs, but the trade-offs have been well worth any ... The gains. And I have genuinely enjoyed being part of what I've experienced to be a really great team so far. So it's been cool. Jared Correia (21:22): That's awesome. Synergy sounds like it's great. Yeah. Okay. In terms of the tech work you guys do, so it sounds like the gig economy is thriving. Even now, when the economy's a little bit stagnant and it seems like hiring is not happening a lot, it sounds like law firms still have a significant need for people. Jay Harrington (21:44): They do. And I think that's ... I mean, I think on both sides, whether it's ... I mean, in a complete downturn, who knows, all bets are off. But in moments like this where there is that uncertainty, I think within the market, what's the impact of AI going to be on the need for lawyers and the amount of headcount that people will have? All kinds of factors like that, that uncertainty, I think with respect to what our offerings are, I think increases demand because yeah, we're just not sure we want to commit to this much permanent hiring, but we need to have some lever to pull, which is sort of the flexible capacity that we provide. So yeah, I mean, I think in a good market, people just need more bodies. But yeah, you're right. Law firms, by all the statistics, they haven't laid off and they've been hiring aggressively over the last couple years. (22:43): I mean, that really hasn't seemed to slow down. There was that moment in 2023 where it did, but 2024 and 2025, I think I saw the stats recently. I think each, even for first year associates were like record years for hiring. I may be wrong on that, but I'm almost certain that's the stat I saw from now, a reliable source. So yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Who knows what the future holds, but right now, I think full-time hiring's up and we're certainly seeing tremendous growth in contract talent as well. Jared Correia (23:15): Yeah. I don't know the numbers either, but I feel like all the law firms I talk to are always looking for people and it's hard to find good people to work in law practices too, given how specialized the work is. So it sounds like lawyers are generally speaking pretty interested and flexible roles, whereas that was not always the case. I don't know if you ... I remember when I was in law school and coming out, everybody was like, "Oh, you're going to be like a contract attorney and sit in an office and grind out discovery?" That was the last thing you wanted to do. It's a lot different now, right? Jay Harrington (23:52): Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, the connotation, and I think the reality was in maybe the 2000s say, I mean, contract lawyers were primarily due diligence and document review, discovery- Jared Correia (24:03): They were losers who couldn't get real jobs, is what I remember. Jay Harrington (24:09): No Jared Correia (24:09): Comment.That's what you said. All right, go ahead. I Jay Harrington (24:14): Said it. Jared Correia (24:14): Go. Jay Harrington (24:15): Yeah. But no, you're absolutely right. I think both, this is a marketplace, and so you need the demand and you need the talent. You need to find that match. So now you've got this great synergy between we're identifying great attorney candidates who have this very specialized expertise, and the market is more open to and desirous of those types of attorneys. So the more roles like that there are, the more candidates we can go get, and the more candidates that we have that expertise, we can sell that to our clients. So it's this virtuous cycle. I think that marketplace dynamic has kicked in. But yeah, I mean, I'd say some significant majority of our candidates are, they have big law experience, they're graduating from top law schools, they have significant in- house experience and in these very specialized, many cases, specialized areas of expertise. And I think their motivations are different depending on the person, but some of the things we're seeing are like, "All right, I'm using this as a bridge to figure out what the next phase of my career looks like, " which is great because, okay, I just want to work 20 hours a week and I want to do a three-month engagement and I maybe roll off that and then take on another one and just have a little bit of a break from the grind. (25:39): In other cases, we have people who are still working a tremendous amount. They might be still working 60 hours a week on multiple engagements, but they're doing so in a way where then they take a month off and they recharge the batteries or whatever the case might be. This enables people to live where they want because a great majority of the roles we're filling are remote and it allows people to do things like ... I know of someone who is working on a book, which a 20 to 25 hour flex contract allows her to do. So yeah, so there's a lot of different motivations and reasons, but I think all these factors and the prevalence of these roles have allowed lawyers to rethink like, "Okay, I want to stay in the game. I just need a little break or I'm looking to the next phase." Or even lawyers at the tail end of their career who maybe they have to retire from the law firm, but they've got another five to 10 good years in them and they're joining our platform and we're finding roles for them. Jared Correia (26:43): I also, I don't know how you feel about this, but I like how modern employees, contractors, they're willing to stand up for what they want in terms of work-life balance. I remember, man, when I was looking for legal jobs, they were like, "You can be working 80 hours a week, bro." And I was like, "Yes, sir, I may have another. I just need a paycheck." But now I think people are like, "This is what I want. " And they can sort of dictate terms in a way. I think that's great, frankly. Jay Harrington (27:05): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, good candidates who have these specialized expertise that people are looking for, a really strong litigator, especially ones that might be located in a jurisdiction where there's a lot of demand like California, it's great. I mean, there's a lot of opportunity there. So yeah, it really depends, but for the right person who's looking at this as a ... They're almost like their own entrepreneurial endeavor, it can work because not everyone wants to go out and start their own firm and deal with that. Our candidates are W2 employees of Latitude and they become eligible for our benefits packages and great benefits. So it allows them to be like, "All right, I've got all that taken care of. I don't have to worry about tax withholding. I can craft a schedule I want and earn a good..." I mean, this is not these small rates. (28:03): I mean, once you figure out that you were working 2,600 hours in a law firm and you kind of divide that by your salary or whatever, whatever the math is there, I didn't go to law school because I was good at math, but you get the idea, they may be billing $1,200 an hour to the client, but that's not what they're making. You know what I mean? Jared Correia (28:26): Yes, absolutely. So if I'm a law firm and I'm like, "Hey, this gig thing sounds interesting to me. Maybe I could surge people up and down." This kind of dovetails with what you did before, but how does a law firm prepare to be effective in onboarding a gig employee? What do they need to know and do? Jay Harrington (28:45): Yeah, no, that's a great question because that does ... So I mean, communication's key. I would say, well, let me start before that. I would say the more ... A couple things matter in terms of being able to attract the right candidate beyond just the pay rate. I mean, obviously compensation is important, but giving some certainty into the number of hours that someone will be able to use for a week, because some engagements are just on an as needed basis. And I think the ones where there's a struggle maybe is where, okay, I think I need someone, but then I'm not prepared myself to onboard this person and get them immediately in the mix of the work. If there's a lag and the remote working lawyer is like, "I don't know, I'm just sitting here. I'm waiting for them to send me something, but I haven't gotten anything yet." That creates uncertainty and it tends to maybe not lead to the optimal engagement. (29:46): But if the law firm is organized, getting someone onboard into their systems as they need them, setting expectations, getting clear on the candidate schedule and what their expectations are for them, and then being ready to give them meaningful work, that sets the groundwork for a good engagement and then just steady communication moving forward. You see that where it's like, okay, we're going to start things, but then the billable work doesn't come right away. And then the candidate is wondering, okay, is this ever going to happen? And then they might Jared Correia (30:20): Start Jay Harrington (30:20): Looking elsewhere. So I think if you want the best candidates, it's like give them certainty, maybe a guaranteed number of hours per week, be ready to go with interesting projects, even just projects that keep them busy and communicate, have a smooth onboarding process would be getting them set up in your system so they can record their time, access the documents they need to. All of these basic things really are the big things when it comes to getting someone ready to join your firm. And some firms, many firms, especially smaller ones and big ones too, they're oftentimes thinking in terms of, and should be, this might be someone who ultimately, if it works out on both sides, that this could be a good full-time hire at some point. It's a good test. Especially for a small firm, I think about this where, gosh, that fourth employee we hired, is a significant risk in many ways because if that doesn't work out, we just added a significant percentage to our workforce and I don't want to have to four months from now figure out, because I couldn't discern from an interview and their resume that it wasn't going to be a good fit and now I got to lay them off. (31:35): And now it's like, okay, yeah, great. I can pay someone on contract for three months and actually see what it's like to work with them. And then if it makes sense, I might extend a full-time job offer if they seem to find that it would be a good fit too. Jared Correia (31:50): Yeah. How many times does a firm hire somebody and they just don't work out? And you never tell from the resume. The resume looks legit. And that's happened so many times to firms I've worked with and in places I've worked before. Somebody's a freak, but you don't know that until I get into the space with you. It sounds like law firms are pretty good with the tech stuff at this point though. It sounds like it's not a huge barrier for them to give access to their systems or document sharing.You're shaking your head, no, that's not a problem. I think that's a good sign. Jay Harrington (32:27): Yeah. Yeah, it is, I think. In some cases, many firms, I think some of the bigger ones for certainly will, they'll ship a laptop fully loaded to someone. Some of the small firms are still having people use their own laptops, which works just as well too. But yes, the- Yeah, most Jared Correia (32:46): Everything's in the cloud. Yeah. Jay Harrington (32:47): The cloud, exactly. That changed everything for all of us, obviously, working remotely. But yeah, that tends not to be the major issue. That's Jared Correia (32:56): Good. Jay Harrington (32:56): It's more like have the work ready for someone when they start. Jared Correia (33:01): What a great world to be living in, in some cases. So last question I have for you is, let's say I'm a firm and I want to engage a placement agency of some kind, and I'm looking at all kinds of different options, including gig options. What do I do? What am I going to be expected to provide in terms of information? Jay Harrington (33:20): Yeah. So yeah, if someone was to go down this road and talk to someone like me, we would ask a number of questions. Okay, we've explored what are you really looking for? You may think it's a person with particular qualifications, but let's say this is an in- house role. They think maybe I need a lawyer, maybe you just need a paralegal, or maybe it's a legal ops person you need as opposed to a lawyer that need ... Does this role really require a JD? In many cases, they do. Then it's, okay, how do we make sure that you get the best candidate? And there it's like working with someone to determine a budget, a length of time, any sort of clear expectations or better yet, guarantees as to, yes, we're going to guarantee a certain number of hours for a certain amount of time. These are all the factors that allow you to get a better pool of candidates interested in your job. (34:20): A real clear job description. Okay, this is a commercial contracts role. Okay, what kind of contracts? Is this NDAs, MSAs, procurement, marketing related agreements? We want to get as much detail because we have more than 5,000 candidates in our pool alone and we're constantly recruiting new people. So we have someone for virtually everything you're looking for, but the more detailed you can be with what you're looking for, (34:53): The more dialed in we can be with our search and getting you the right slate of candidates that you need. So yeah, I mean, all these factors, and then we'll give them guidance on how to, again, things we just talked about, how to prepare to onboard them effectively and that kind of thing. But it really starts with, what is the need? Let's get as clear as possible on that. What is the scope of the engagement, the length, the number of hours per week, the budget, and then from there, those are some of the major factors that you need to think through or think through with us before things move forward. Jared Correia (35:27): All right. If you're looking for somebody with a particular set of skills, taught to Jay in his new gig. Jay, that was great. Will you hang around for one last segment? Jay Harrington (35:36): Absolutely. Jared Correia (35:37): All right, great. We'll be back with Jay Arrington in just a moment. Welcome back, everybody. That's right. We're at the Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guest. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Jay, I put together a game for you. You excited? Jay Harrington (36:05): I like games. I like games. I think. Most games. Jared Correia (36:11): This is called Jay and the Herring Tones. I'm going to provide you with the name of a song and an artist, and then I'm going to read you some lyrics. You just have to complete the next line of the song. Jay Harrington (36:26): I'm going to be so Jared Correia (36:27): Bad because you want. Jay Harrington (36:29): All right. Jared Correia (36:30): Yeah. I called it Jay in the Herring Tones. I thought that was clever, but it's just really you. There's no backup group of any kind. So I'm going to start off easy though for you. I got several of these. So the first one I got for you is a song that you may have heard of. It's called Stairway to Heaven by a little band that maybe not everybody knows about called Led Zeppelin. So the lyrics go like this. There's a lady who sure all that glitters is gold and she's buying A? Jay, what is she buying? Jay Harrington (37:06): I've heard this song. We're in Jared Correia (37:07): Trouble. Jay Harrington (37:07): A hundred times. Hold on. It's been a while. This is always the end of the middle school dance. This is the easy one. Okay. All right. Jared Correia (37:15): We're so fucked. Jay Harrington (37:16): You said, what is she buying? She's buying us Goway to heaven. Jared Correia (37:19): Yeah. Yes. Excellent. We're one for one. Jay Harrington (37:24): I'm going to drink some drama. Aren't they supposed to do a dramatic like, uh-oh, I'm not sure if I know the answer to this one. Jared Correia (37:32): Oh, that was well played. I was totally buying in. All right. Jay Harrington (37:38): Although I was going back to slow dancing in seventh grade to that song. So memories. Jared Correia (37:46): Stairway to heaven, huh? Really? It was the long one. Yeah. That was like the last song. Yeah. It's like seven minutes long, right? That was the last song at the middle school dance. That's so funny. Always. Jay Harrington (37:58): Yeah. Jared Correia (37:58): All right. We're going to try different genres here. So now we're going with a little ditty called Bitches Ain't Shit by Dr. Dre. You familiar with that one? Jay Harrington (38:08): Yes. Jared Correia (38:10): You are. Jay Harrington (38:12): Child of the '90s. Yeah. Teenager of the '90s. Me too. I'm worried about here. Yeah. Jared Correia (38:20): Okay. Here we go. To the store to get me a 40, that's a 40 for those who are uninitiated. Snoop Dogg paged. That means more hose. You always want to have more hose. And I like that they're using a pager here. A little vested from the '90s. So I head down this street to Long Beach just so I could meet a freak ... What do you think that freak is going to do to Dr. Dre? Jay? Jay Harrington (38:54): Ask him if he wants to go to coffee. Jared Correia (38:56): The Jay Harrington (38:56): Other day, right? I don't know. No, I don't know. I've never heard this song. I honestly don't know. Jared Correia (39:05): Really? To lick me from head to feet. Head to feet. Oh, Jay Harrington (39:14): Okay. Jared Correia (39:15): A little bit different from your standard cup of coffee. Yeah. Jay Harrington (39:20): Genuinely did not know that one. Yeah. Jared Correia (39:24): But I think that's like the remix when Dre's paging Snoop and he's like, "Hey, could you pick me up some dunks on the way over?" I think that's on The Chronic. Jay Harrington (39:36): Yeah. Jared Correia (39:36): Okay. Jay Harrington (39:37): I knew The Chronic better. Yeah, that was more. All Jared Correia (39:40): Right. We're one for two, which is still pretty good. That's tough. Jay Harrington (39:43): All right. Jared Correia (39:44): I think this one might be a little bit easier. We're going across the pond. I know if you remember the song as a child of the '90s, you might. Name of the song is I'm going to Be 500 Miles by a band called The Proclaimers. Do you remember this one? Jay Harrington (40:01): I think so. Yeah, I think so. I feel like I need to hear the song, but I've got a song in mind. I just don't know if that's the same song that you're going to read me lyrics of. Jared Correia (40:11): Two Irish dudes with glasses. I think they were brothers. Maybe they were Scottish. I don't know. And they had this song like I would walk 500 miles. I would walk 500 Jay Harrington (40:21): Mornings. Jared Correia (40:21): One hit wonders? Jay Harrington (40:22): Yes. Jared Correia (40:22): Okay. Yep. All right, here we go. When I go out, yeah, I'm going to be the man who goes along with you. If I get drunk, well, I know I'm going to be dot, dot, dot. What's he going to be? Che. You can sing it along to yourself if you want. Jay Harrington (40:40): I'm trying to sing it in my head. Love Jared Correia (40:43): For it. We'll edit out the silence. Jay Harrington (40:45): Shoot. Shoot. Yeah. Jared Correia (40:49): If I get drunk, well, I know I'm going to be ... Jay Harrington (40:53): Walking 500 miles, 5,000 miles. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I'm the worst guy. The wrong game. Okay. Jared Correia (41:02): No, the whole point of this segment is just to destroy people. Okay. I'm going to be the man who gets drunk next to you. Yeah, basically. Okay. I'm going to be the man who gets drunk next to you. Jay Harrington (41:12): Yes. Yes. Jared Correia (41:14): Good. But that was a good guess.That would have been the chorus of the song. And I'm too much of an asshole to just give you the chorus. Jay Harrington (41:22): Yeah, you're looking smug over there, looking at me. You got the answers right. You pick the songs, you got the answers. And I'm getting this smug look over here from Jared. Jared Correia (41:34): That's the whole point. You can give me one if you want to. Think of the song and we'll do one for me at the end. Make it hard. Jay Harrington (41:43): Oh. Yeah. Okay. I don't know the lyrics. I don't know the three lyrics. You think I can come up with the whole thing? Jared Correia (41:48): I'm going to give Jay Harrington (41:49): You something. Jared Correia (41:50): Next Jay Harrington (41:50): One. Jared Correia (41:51): Next one. Marvin Gay. Marvin Gay. What's going on? You remember this one? Jay Harrington (41:56): Yeah, I know the song. Jared Correia (41:58): All right. All right. I'm feeling good about this one. I think this is going to get you back on track. Okay. Father, father, we don't need to escalate. You see, war is not the answer for only love can conquer hate. You know, we've got to find a way ... Got to find a way to do what? Jay Harrington (42:16): Oh yeah. This is an easy one, except I don't ... Okay. I know. Oh, this is killing me, man. I don't know. I feel like two seconds after you say it, my mind just goes completely blank. There's nothing. I've got nothing. I feel like you got to Jared Correia (42:38): Sing Jay Harrington (42:38): It. If I heard Marvin Gaye singing it, but except for Jared reciting it, I think I could do better. Jared Correia (42:43): Yeah. Yeah. See, I couldn't get Marvin Gaye for the show today, but Jay Harrington (42:48): That would've been nice. Jared Correia (42:50): To bring some loving here today, to bring some love in here. Jay Harrington (42:53): Okay. Yeah. I don't know. This is tough. Jared Correia (42:55): We're on a voyage of discovery, Jay. Do Jay Harrington (42:57): You have any country? I've been listening to a lot of country Jared Correia (43:02): This year. I didn't do any country. Who have you been listening Jay Harrington (43:06): To? I listen to a lot of country, I guess. I don't know. I like Jared Correia (43:09): Chris Jay Harrington (43:09): Stapleton. I mean, Zach Bryant's not country, but I like Zach. Morgan Wallen, of course. I mean, oh, Riley Green. I don't know. Lots Jared Correia (43:20): Of- Do a little ... Eric Church? Yeah, I love Jay Harrington (43:24): Eric Church. Jared Correia (43:24): Red Paisley. Jay Harrington (43:26): Yeah. Yeah. All good. Jared Correia (43:27): And maybe I'll throw one in here for you. But I've got another one right now for you. Okay. Which I think you got a shot at. Jay Harrington (43:35): Okay. Jared Correia (43:36): Girls just want to have fun. Cindy Lauper. Jay Harrington (43:38): Yep. Jared Correia (43:39): Giant 80s hit. Jay Harrington (43:41): Yep. Jared Correia (43:41): It goes a little something like this. The phone rings in the middle of the night. My father yells, "What you going to do with your life? Oh, daddy dear, you know you're still number one." But, but. Jay Harrington (43:56): But I'm going after the word but is that right? Jared Correia (44:00): Yes. Yes. Jay Harrington (44:01): Okay. But girls just got to have fun. Jared Correia (44:04): Yeah. Well, I'll give it to you. Just want to have fun. Close enough. Jay Harrington (44:07): Close Jared Correia (44:08): Enough. Jay Harrington (44:09): All right. All right. All right. I mean, I'm back on the board a little bit. Jared Correia (44:16): You're back in it. You're back in it. Okay. Jay Harrington (44:19): I can't wait to show this to my daughters because they are going to just rip me. Jared Correia (44:24): Do you think they would know this stuff off the top of my head? Are they like music Jay Harrington (44:28): Things? They wouldn't, but they would think this is so ridiculous and embarrassing. That's what they say. That is so embarrassing. Jared Correia (44:36): Oh yeah. My kids would say the same thing. That's what I'm going to get. They're like, "What is all this stupid shit you're listening to? Jay Harrington (44:41): " Yeah. Jared Correia (44:43): Okay. I got three more for you and then maybe we'll throw a country one on there. Jay Harrington (44:46): Okay. Jared Correia (44:47): You like Hermes Hermits? Jay Harrington (44:50): I'm not familiar with that, whatever that is. Yeah. Jared Correia (44:53): Really? Herman's Hermes? No. Jay Harrington (44:55): No. Jared Correia (44:55): British Jay Harrington (44:55): Invasion Jared Correia (44:56): Band from the '60s? No. Jay Harrington (44:58): All right. No knowledge. All Jared Correia (45:01): Right. You have no chance of getting this one. Let me move on. You said you have two daughters? Jay Harrington (45:06): Three. Jared Correia (45:07): Three. Okay. Yeah. I think you'll know this one. We're going to just move on. Jay Harrington (45:11): Good. Jared Correia (45:12): Pink Pony Club. Chappelle Roan. Jay Harrington (45:15): Yeah. Jared Correia (45:16): You know that one? Jay Harrington (45:17): I know it. Jared Correia (45:18): God, what have you done? You're a Pink Pony girl and you dance at the club. Oh mama, I'm just having fun on the stage in my heels. You know this one? Jay Harrington (45:30): In the Pink Pony Club. In my heels. Okay, what is it? Jared Correia (45:34): It's where I belong. Down at the Pink Pony Club. Jay Harrington (45:38): Oh, okay. All right. Where I belong. Yeah, no. Jared Correia (45:40): I'm going to give that one to you. Jay Harrington (45:41): Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. No, that one's good. I kind of like that song. I Jared Correia (45:45): Like Pink Pony Club. I think it's going to say Jay Harrington (45:47): It. She went to Interlochen, which is a performing art school like 20 miles from where I live in Traverse City, Michigan. Jared Correia (45:57): Really? Jay Harrington (45:58): Yeah. Jared Correia (45:59): Oh, that's interesting. Jay Harrington (46:00): Yeah. Jared Correia (46:00): Look at this, man. See, you're getting comfortable in the segment. Jay Harrington (46:03): I'm Jared Correia (46:03): Impressed. I'm Jay Harrington (46:04): Adding some value. Jared Correia (46:06): You are. Well, you always add value everywhere you go. Okay. Let's do one more on my original list, which as a child of the '90s like myself, I think you will know off the top of your head. Let's see. Rob Van Winkle himself, also known as Vanilla Ice with his gigantic hit Ice, ice baby. Goes a little something like this. All right, stop. Collaborate and listen. Ice is back with my brand new invention. Something grabs a hold of me tightly. Dot, dot, dot. What's the rest? Jay Harrington (46:48): I don't know. I mean, I know I've heard that song a zillion times, but what is it, Jared? What is it? Jared Correia (46:56): Flow like a harpoon daily and nightly. Jay Harrington (46:59): Which Jared Correia (47:01): Honestly makes no sense. Jay Harrington (47:02): No. Jared Correia (47:03): Really? Jay Harrington (47:03): No. I know that- Jared Correia (47:05): That's not how a harpoon works. Jay Harrington (47:06): I'm familiar with the line. I don't know if I ever knew it was flew like a harpoon. Yeah. I mean, A, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, this is weird. Jared Correia (47:18): Well, it's flow like a harpoon. Oh Jay Harrington (47:19): Yeah. Jared Correia (47:20): Which is even stranger. Jay Harrington (47:21): That Jared Correia (47:22): Is. But that doesn't make any ... I can see like a harpoon flying through the air, but I don't know. Maybe that's why vanilla ice was effectively like a one hit wonder. In replacement of Herman's Hermits, this is going to be a fun Spotify playlist to do for this episode. Let me throw in a little Eric Church. What do you think? Jay Harrington (47:43): Sure. Jared Correia (47:44): I got some lyrics pulled up here. From a song called Springsteen, which you may know. Jay Harrington (47:50): I know Jared Correia (47:51): The song. Like probably his first big hit. I think about the stars in the sky. Funny how a melody sounds like a memory. July Saturday night, what comes next? What lyric? Jay Harrington (48:03): Springsteen. Jared Correia (48:04): Yes, Jay. Jay Harrington (48:06): All right. Is that right? Jared Correia (48:07): Okay. Yes. Jay Harrington (48:08): Good. Jared Correia (48:09): Well Jay Harrington (48:09): Done. Jared Correia (48:09): I feel like not only a lot of great non-sequiturs you threw into that section, but I think you finished at 500. I think you got four out of eight when all was said and done. Well done. Your daughters are going to be proud of you. Jay Harrington (48:22): Yeah, you were an easy grader because you let me slide on a few. This wasn't Jared Correia (48:27): Like Jay Harrington (48:27): A math problem. Yeah. Jared Correia (48:29): No. No. We're great on the scale here at legal late night. Jay Harrington (48:33): Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like ... I mean, I mentioned earlier, I'm over 50. I think you got to give me that. If I'm anywhere in the ballpark, it's got to be a yes. Jared Correia (48:46): Well done. Thank you. Come back some time. Jay Harrington (48:48): Okay. Thanks, Jared. Jared Correia (48:49): Thanks to our guest, Jay Harrington, a partner at Latitude Legal. To learn more about Jay and Latitude, visit latitudelegal.com, L-A-T-I-T-U-D-E, legal.com, latitudelegal.com. I can spell. Now, because I'll always be a '90s kid who still enjoys a red freeze pop to this day, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the monitor version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, we're bringing back Jay in the Herring Tones or just Jay. Maybe that's the album he produces when he goes solo. Yes, that's right. It's all the songs Jay doesn't know the lyrics to, and that's a lot of songs and it's sponsored by The Edsel. Unfortunately, that's a lie. Production on the Edsel Seast in 1960 when I was 37 years old. (49:51): Join us next time when I offer my thoughts on the 1956 presidential election. Don't blame me. I voted for Adlai Stevenson.