Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Stress, Human Behaviour and Self-regulation with Dr Stuart Shanker

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Stress, Human Behaviour and Self-regulation with Dr Stuart Shanker · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:09
Speaker 1: Paul Taylor here and welcome to another edition of the podcast.
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Speaker 1: Today's guest is Stuart Shanker, who founded the Merit Center
0:16
Speaker 1: in Canada, an organization dedicated to understanding how stress affects
0:21
Speaker 1: human behavior and to help both kids and adults self
0:25
Speaker 1: regulate how they respond to stress in.
0:28
Speaker 2: Order to improve their lives.
0:30
Speaker 1: This turned out to be an absolutely fascinating conversation.
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Speaker 3: Stuart anchor, welcome, Thank you very much, Paul, lovely to
0:38
Speaker 3: be here. I tell our listeners where you are right now? Okay,
0:43
Speaker 3: I live on an island one hundred and sixty five
0:47
Speaker 3: kilometers east of Toronto, in the middle of rural Ontario,
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Speaker 3: Thin Canada.
0:53
Speaker 1: Wow, and winter, I would imagine gets a little bit frisky.
0:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, you were teasing me about this before we came on.
1:02
Speaker 3: We get to about minus thirty five where I live. However,
1:06
Speaker 3: it's a lake, so we got a wind chill factor.
1:09
Speaker 3: I'm guessing we probably hit minus fifty with the wind
1:11
Speaker 3: chill minus fifty I think, so.
1:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow and what so what would happen?
1:19
Speaker 2: Tell me this?
1:19
Speaker 1: How long would you last if I went out there
1:22
Speaker 1: in a T shirt?
1:24
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll tell you a great story. I used to
1:28
Speaker 3: have a springer, So Springer spaniels have got to be
1:32
Speaker 3: one of the stupidest dogs. We're walking along the causeway
1:39
Speaker 3: and he spots a rabbit on the ice and he
1:42
Speaker 3: goes tearing after it, and of course he falls through
1:44
Speaker 3: the ice and he starts howling. So I have to
1:49
Speaker 3: go in to drag him out. And it was cold,
1:52
Speaker 3: but I was okay, but what And then the damn
1:56
Speaker 3: rabbit it comes back the other way and the dog
1:59
Speaker 3: goes after it again and goes through the ice again. No,
2:04
Speaker 3: it's true, So I have to go in and get
2:06
Speaker 3: him again. And the second time it hit me and
2:10
Speaker 3: I just was standing still in the in the ice water,
2:14
Speaker 3: and my son was watching all this, and he came
2:16
Speaker 3: running out and basically saved my life. You know how
2:20
Speaker 3: they talk about in hypothermia and a cute hypothermia, everything
2:23
Speaker 3: shuts down. Yes, I couldn't move. I you must have
2:27
Speaker 3: done that in your training it.
2:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we did cold water.
2:31
Speaker 1: Well, when I say cold water, it wasn't quite like
2:35
Speaker 1: that's probably ten degrees. And we get thrown in off
2:38
Speaker 1: the back of a boat because I flew in helicopters, right,
2:41
Speaker 1: and so I did know that, yeah, And then you
2:44
Speaker 1: had to under your your life jacket which was under
2:47
Speaker 1: our seat, and and try and get it up. But
2:50
Speaker 1: within within a couple of minutes, your hands are just
2:53
Speaker 1: completely useless.
2:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, did you have were you wearing a wet skin?
2:58
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, we had what it's called a gun bag on.
3:01
Speaker 1: But your hands are right, and god, it's it's pretty quick,
3:06
Speaker 1: isn't it.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. And the funny thing for me was afterwards they
3:11
Speaker 3: got me in and put me in front of a fire.
3:13
Speaker 3: It took me, i would say, four or five hours before. No,
3:17
Speaker 3: I didn't have any nothing, nothing got hurt. But so
3:24
Speaker 3: it was only moderate hypothermia, So I think the real
3:28
Speaker 3: thing must be pretty rough.
3:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
3:30
Speaker 1: Well, as they say, we were always told in the military, right,
3:33
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing.
3:36
Speaker 2: And I think that's relevant.
3:38
Speaker 3: It's absolutely right.
3:41
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about your your journey,
3:44
Speaker 1: your your kind of educational journey, how you ended up
3:48
Speaker 1: and doing what you currently do, and talk just a
3:51
Speaker 1: little bit about the Merit Center.
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Speaker 3: So I'm a student at the University of Toronto and
3:57
Speaker 3: I want a scholarship to go to Oxford and basically
4:03
Speaker 3: stayed at Oxford for the next ten years and I
4:08
Speaker 3: studied self regulation. As we were taught. It was really about,
4:16
Speaker 3: you know, how the brain self regulates and then the
4:18
Speaker 3: things we can learn to enhance it. And when I
4:21
Speaker 3: came back to Canada, somebody said, I got a letter
4:25
Speaker 3: from a journal and they said, I we see you've
4:28
Speaker 3: done work in self regulation. Would you write an article
4:31
Speaker 3: for us? So I said sure, but you know, let
4:34
Speaker 3: me see what you guys have been doing. I don't
4:36
Speaker 3: know what the hell they were talking about. They were
4:39
Speaker 3: usually the same term. We actually did a study on
4:42
Speaker 3: this a few years ago. There are four hundred and
4:44
Speaker 3: forty seven different definitions of self regulation.
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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, I know that is interesting because it actually
4:53
Speaker 1: you continue and then I'll chip in.
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Speaker 3: Well. The original term was coined back at the beginning
4:59
Speaker 3: of the in nineteen twenties by an American physiologist called
5:03
Speaker 3: Walter Bradford Cannon. Oh, Walter, did he learn fact? He
5:08
Speaker 3: was the one. Wow, yeah, and what he what? What
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Speaker 3: Canon was interested in, and then following him sugging were
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Speaker 3: the self regulating mechanisms that are deep in the brain,
5:21
Speaker 3: in the mid brain and in the brainstem, and how
5:27
Speaker 3: these aren't powerful enough to deal with the stresses of life.
5:32
Speaker 3: So Cannon's model was that we can enhance these with
5:36
Speaker 3: what he called feed forward mechanisms so that we can
5:40
Speaker 3: you know, deal with more and more stress. I mean
5:43
Speaker 3: very much the kind of thing that you've dedicated your
5:45
Speaker 3: life to. What are the skills that we can learn
5:48
Speaker 3: so that we can we can handle greater and greater
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Speaker 3: stress loads without going into imbalance, without going into tackle stasis.
5:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
5:58
Speaker 3: Anyways, so I'm with all these guys are saying, I
6:01
Speaker 3: don't know how they were talking about. You know, so
6:06
Speaker 3: we were really looking at we were looking at physiology,
6:10
Speaker 3: we're looking at the brain. So I wrote an article about,
6:15
Speaker 3: you know, essentially how Cannon and Sellier looked at self
6:18
Speaker 3: regulation and why it matters. That was the big thing,
6:22
Speaker 3: why it matters, And it just exploded on us, and
6:27
Speaker 3: you know, before we knew it. We got a huge
6:30
Speaker 3: grant to study it, and we set up an institute,
6:33
Speaker 3: a really cool institute where we had a therapy clinic
6:36
Speaker 3: on one side and a neuroscience lab on the other.
6:39
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, it was really cool. It was really cool.
6:43
Speaker 3: So we would you know, we'd work with the kids
6:45
Speaker 3: and then we you know, shoot them over into the
6:48
Speaker 3: neural lab and see what was going on inside the brain. Nice,
6:52
Speaker 3: so we were able to see in real time what
6:55
Speaker 3: self regulation in Cannon's model, how it the impact that
7:01
Speaker 3: it has on brain arousal and as a result of
7:04
Speaker 3: brain rausal the rest of the other kinds of rows.
7:07
Speaker 3: And then after that, so we got it. We got
7:10
Speaker 3: ten million bucks to study all this. But the terms
7:13
Speaker 3: were that we created an organization, the Merit Center, which
7:20
Speaker 3: was really intended to disseminate this knowledge both in Canada
7:24
Speaker 3: and around the world. Okay, And and that's.
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Speaker 2: What we do.
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Speaker 3: And that's how I ended up where I am.
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Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty cold, and and look, we will dive
7:32
Speaker 1: into that in a second. I just want to go
7:33
Speaker 1: back to Oxford. So what did what exactly did you
7:36
Speaker 1: study at Toronto? And then what did you study at Oxford?
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Speaker 3: So Toronto, I just did a general BA and then
7:43
Speaker 3: at Oxford I did PPE philosophy, politics and economics. Okay,
7:48
Speaker 3: and and then I did a b phil d phil.
7:52
Speaker 3: And uh, it's really my defail is in the philosophy
7:57
Speaker 3: of mathematics.
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Speaker 2: Wow.
7:59
Speaker 3: Yeah. But what I was looking at was I was
8:02
Speaker 3: looking at the mathematics of artificial intelligence, the original systems
8:07
Speaker 3: and those are self regulating algorithms. That's wow. That was
8:13
Speaker 3: Truring's idea. And while I was in Oxford, I became
8:18
Speaker 3: friends with a guy called Jerry Brunner. So have you
8:21
Speaker 3: heard of Jerome Bruner. No, he was He was a
8:24
Speaker 3: developmental psychologist, and he was incredible. And so I started
8:29
Speaker 3: to hang out with him, and so I, you know,
8:32
Speaker 3: I'd spend the morning doing this recursive you know, we
8:36
Speaker 3: were working on something called recursive algorithms, and then the
8:38
Speaker 3: afternoon looking at kids, right and and Jerry said to
8:42
Speaker 3: me one day, he said, you know, he said, for
8:45
Speaker 3: all this work you guys have done, it's a bit
8:47
Speaker 3: like getting teflon out of NASSA. You know, you'll learn
8:53
Speaker 3: more about You'll learn more about children by actually working
8:57
Speaker 3: with children. So what I did was when I came
9:01
Speaker 3: back to Canada, I actually trained in psychiatry under Stanley Greenspan.
9:06
Speaker 3: And the clinic that we opened was a combination of
9:16
Speaker 3: it was child psychiatry and neuroscience. And that's very much
9:21
Speaker 3: the work I do today.
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Speaker 1: And that is very cool because look for many many decades,
9:28
Speaker 1: actually centuries, and human behavior has been firmly in the
9:34
Speaker 1: domain of psychologists, right who come up with all sorts
9:37
Speaker 1: of theories, some of which are pretty good, some of
9:41
Speaker 1: which pretty some of which are pretty loose as well.
9:45
Speaker 1: But high has neuroscience, and that particularly the imaging of
9:51
Speaker 1: the brain. How has that transformed or advanced our understanding
9:56
Speaker 1: of both human behavior and development?
9:59
Speaker 3: So that that really is a terrific question. And when
10:04
Speaker 3: I was at Oxford, so in the I was in
10:06
Speaker 3: grad school in the late seventies, and I remember we
10:09
Speaker 3: had a professor who said to us one day, you know,
10:12
Speaker 3: he said, we only studied the surface of the brain,
10:15
Speaker 3: so we studied the new cortex, but mostly we just
10:18
Speaker 3: studied this part here, the prefrontal. And he said, we're
10:21
Speaker 3: never going to know what's going on below the surface.
10:24
Speaker 3: We just don't have that technology. And so we've got
10:28
Speaker 3: a you know, all we know is that that blue
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Speaker 3: brain somehow control the sort of the prefrontal, yeah, controls
10:39
Speaker 3: impulses coming from the subcortex. That was the idea. And
10:44
Speaker 3: psychology at this time was a self control psychology. So
10:50
Speaker 3: the most famous study was Walter Mitchel a marketall task,
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Speaker 3: and that's a self control that's a delay of gratification task.
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Speaker 3: Idea here was you know, you mentioned to me before
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Speaker 3: we came on the dun needn't study you know this,
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Speaker 3: which you know. What Mitchell claimed to show was that
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Speaker 3: on children four to six, if they have trouble delaying gratification,
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Speaker 3: and he did his studies with kids that were four
11:22
Speaker 3: to six years old when he came back and looked
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Speaker 3: at them in nineteen eighty nine, the original studies were
11:29
Speaker 3: in the mid sixties. What he am was that the
11:32
Speaker 3: two thirds of kids that couldn't delay gratification so called,
11:37
Speaker 3: did really much much more poorly in life. So they
11:42
Speaker 3: they had more social problems, they had more problems with
11:46
Speaker 3: mental health, problems with they had poor education, and so.
11:51
Speaker 2: On and so on.
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Speaker 3: What Dunedin did was confirmed these long term findings that
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Speaker 3: Michelle had made. But when we look at this, you know,
12:05
Speaker 3: you can't fight the data. We thought there's something real
12:08
Speaker 3: interesting going on here, and what we wanted to know
12:11
Speaker 3: was why and what's happened in neuroscience over the last
12:18
Speaker 3: i would say twenty five years. Is we can answer
12:22
Speaker 3: the why now. And just to give you some idea
12:26
Speaker 3: of how like we talk about the revolution in neuroscience,
12:30
Speaker 3: people don't appreciate I know you do because of the
12:33
Speaker 3: because of your education but the general public doesn't realize.
12:37
Speaker 3: You know, we didn't even know what better thanendorphins were
12:41
Speaker 3: until the early seventies. Did you know what? You know?
12:44
Speaker 3: I study stress and the start of the stress cycle
12:48
Speaker 3: is something called CIRF carticle trope and factor release the factory.
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Speaker 3: We didn't discover that until nineteen eighty one studies. There's
12:56
Speaker 3: one eighty one. Yeah, CRF is eighty one. These are
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Speaker 3: very recent discoveries. And so what has happened is over
13:05
Speaker 3: the last twenty five years we have a real good understanding.
13:09
Speaker 3: Now there's more to go, but we know what's going
13:13
Speaker 3: on below the surface. We know what's going on in
13:17
Speaker 3: the limbic system, and we know what's going on in
13:19
Speaker 3: the mid brain.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so now just for our listeners, can you
13:24
Speaker 1: just differentiate between the olympic system, mid brain, these sorts
13:28
Speaker 1: of things, because there are times that we're familiar with
13:31
Speaker 1: but they may not be.
13:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be great if you could throw a
13:35
Speaker 3: graphic if they if you give them our website, we
13:39
Speaker 3: give graphics for free where you can see all this.
13:42
Speaker 3: So if you can imagine, you know, here's the brain, right,
13:46
Speaker 3: that's the famous when your PowerPoint doesn't work you just
13:50
Speaker 3: hold up you your fist.
13:51
Speaker 2: Yes.
13:52
Speaker 3: So the surface of the brain is the neo cortex,
13:56
Speaker 3: and what we're really interested in when we study things
14:00
Speaker 3: like language problems, solving self awareness, is we're looking at
14:05
Speaker 3: this part of the prefrontal cortex, this part of the
14:09
Speaker 3: neocortex called the prefrontal Underneath this cortex, it's like a mantle.
14:16
Speaker 3: There's another system called that we call the Olympic system,
14:21
Speaker 3: and so it's composed. Its primary structures are the amygdala,
14:27
Speaker 3: the hippocampus, the hypothalamus, and the stratum. And so this
14:35
Speaker 3: was a this is what we studied my own neuroscience lab.
14:39
Speaker 3: This is a source of things like emotions. So we
14:43
Speaker 3: and it was called Joseph Little dou called it the
14:46
Speaker 3: emotional brain. That, by the way, is also recent. That
14:49
Speaker 3: was ninety six.
14:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I read.
14:51
Speaker 1: I read that book, Joseph's Emotional Brain, Brilliant Pook, ninety six.
14:55
Speaker 3: And then underneath that there's another brain layer. So this
15:00
Speaker 3: so you've got this Olympics system. The Limbic system is
15:04
Speaker 3: huge because when children, when babies are born. I don't
15:08
Speaker 3: know how much neuro you want here, but basically.
15:12
Speaker 1: You can you can't do enough neuroscience, right, but not
15:15
Speaker 1: on this podcast.
15:17
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we use the term secondary altriciality to
15:20
Speaker 3: describe human babies. And what that means is we now
15:24
Speaker 3: believe that all human babies are born around two to
15:28
Speaker 3: four months premature. And this and the reason for this
15:32
Speaker 3: has to do with, you know, how big our brains are.
15:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, the size of our brain, isn't it getting through
15:37
Speaker 2: the pelvis exactly right?
15:40
Speaker 3: And so the brain explodes at birth and you start
15:45
Speaker 3: getting you know, seven hundred new synapses forming every single second.
15:50
Speaker 2: Wow.
15:51
Speaker 3: Now the baby, the newborn can self regulate the newborn.
15:56
Speaker 3: This is a very important part of Cannon's model. The
15:59
Speaker 3: newborn has some very crude self regulating mechanisms. One of
16:06
Speaker 3: them is crying. And what crying does is it expresses.
16:10
Speaker 3: It helps the baby express through the tears, excess energy,
16:14
Speaker 3: the energy building up. That's what the stress is causing.
16:18
Speaker 3: But the most important one that the baby has is
16:21
Speaker 3: falling asleep. So what falling asleep does is it reduces
16:29
Speaker 3: the amount of energy coming into the baby's nervous system
16:33
Speaker 3: right now, it doesn't block it completely. And in fact,
16:36
Speaker 3: newborn sleep is a very weird phenomenon. So here you've
16:40
Speaker 3: got this newborn. Now here's a great example that Canon gave.
16:45
Speaker 3: So you got this baby that can close its eyes,
16:50
Speaker 3: fall asleep when there's too much noise or too much light,
16:53
Speaker 3: but it can't really do anything if it gets cold,
16:57
Speaker 3: and if it gets cool, that's really really dangerous. So
17:01
Speaker 3: it's up to the caregiver to regulate the baby. It's
17:07
Speaker 3: up to the caregiver to say, monitor skin, skin color,
17:12
Speaker 3: and see when the baby needs to have a blanket
17:14
Speaker 3: put on or have the blanket taken off. There's a
17:19
Speaker 3: So the key idea here is that we refer to
17:25
Speaker 3: the newborn as essentially a fetus outside.
17:29
Speaker 2: The womb for that interesting concept.
17:33
Speaker 3: So then it raises a really intriguing question. And the
17:37
Speaker 3: question it raises is if you think this newborn is
17:40
Speaker 3: still fetal, what takes the rule of the umbilical cord.
17:46
Speaker 3: And the answer is that we landed on is called
17:50
Speaker 3: the inter brain, and that was a term coined by
17:54
Speaker 3: Digby Tantum psychologists in the UK. The inter brain is
18:01
Speaker 3: this is important for the inter brain is a wireless
18:05
Speaker 3: connection from brain to brain, from mummy's brain to baby.
18:11
Speaker 3: And what's important here is it's not just a case
18:15
Speaker 3: of saying that the mummy is reading what the baby's feeling.
18:20
Speaker 3: The mummy is actually feeling what the baby is feeling.
18:23
Speaker 3: It's a shared experience. Likewise, the baby is feeling what
18:27
Speaker 3: the mother is feeling.
18:29
Speaker 4: So I mentioned how the mirror neurons play a role
18:34
Speaker 4: in this absolutely absolutely well, they're doing the baby right,
18:38
Speaker 4: So it's huge in the baby.
18:40
Speaker 3: These mirror neurons are critical for say, learning language, where
18:45
Speaker 3: they can feel when they're making the same mouth movements. Now,
18:51
Speaker 3: I mentioned how at the moment of birth, the brain's exploding.
18:54
Speaker 3: It's just bursting and snaptagenesis being birds, and so the
18:59
Speaker 3: question is, okay, so you're talking about the brain to
19:02
Speaker 3: brain hookup which parts of the brain, And the answer
19:08
Speaker 3: is the olympic system. It's a prefrontal, the prefrontal. It's
19:12
Speaker 3: still growing. Yeah, so the baby's olympic system ties into
19:17
Speaker 3: the mother's olympic system. And this inter brain connection is
19:22
Speaker 3: actually going to It's with us our entire life. And
19:27
Speaker 3: when it doesn't work, we start to look at, well,
19:31
Speaker 3: what is blocking the interbrain and the answer is always
19:35
Speaker 3: the same. It's always stressed. Whatever the stress is is
19:38
Speaker 3: blocking the interbrain. So with this sudden discovery where we
19:45
Speaker 3: could actually see and this is what I did in
19:47
Speaker 3: my lap where we can see the interplay of mummies,
19:51
Speaker 3: mummy'slympic system in the baby's olympic system. This is like, wow,
19:57
Speaker 3: we can see arousal. Now, we can see how it's
19:59
Speaker 3: a f behavior, how it's affecting everything. But then was
20:07
Speaker 3: the next step. And the next step is Okay, so
20:10
Speaker 3: you've got this, You've got this neo cortex, this mantle,
20:14
Speaker 3: and underneath it, you've got this limbic brain. What's underneath
20:18
Speaker 3: the limbic brain, and underneath that is what we call
20:23
Speaker 3: the midbrain, and the midbrain and the brain step. Okay,
20:29
Speaker 3: this is really interesting stuff because these control Okay, so
20:33
Speaker 3: everybody on this call has probably heard you talk about
20:36
Speaker 3: fighter flight. Correct, Okay, so fighter flight comes from this midbrain.
20:41
Speaker 3: So fighter flight, what happens is the amygdalas sends no
20:45
Speaker 3: alarm signal down to the midbrain. The midbrain releases nor epinephrine,
20:50
Speaker 3: and before you know it, you're fighting or your fleet.
20:54
Speaker 3: But the midbrain does a hell of a lot more.
20:57
Speaker 3: And the midbrain was designed to maintain homeostasis and a
21:07
Speaker 3: whole bunch of systems. Okay, So I'm just assumed that
21:11
Speaker 3: I should quickly explain it.
21:12
Speaker 1: Homeostats is slutely yes, because if your homeostasis is a
21:16
Speaker 1: very important concept in Verman.
21:19
Speaker 3: Diology, right, okay, yes, okay, So homeostasis. What we're looking
21:23
Speaker 3: at is we have all these systems in the body
21:26
Speaker 3: and the brain that have a functional operating ring. And
21:31
Speaker 3: so I'll give you one. I'll give you a very
21:33
Speaker 3: simple example. We need a certain amount of oxygen in
21:37
Speaker 3: our bloodstream, yep.
21:39
Speaker 2: And and.
21:42
Speaker 3: So I have an eye watch. Now, my eyewatch actually
21:45
Speaker 3: has an alarm on it for if my blood oxygen
21:48
Speaker 3: drops below ninety five percent. Ideally we want to be
21:51
Speaker 3: ninety seven ninety eight percent. But the brain has its
21:56
Speaker 3: own system for monitor oxygen levels in the bloodstream, and
22:03
Speaker 3: it's in the brainstem, it's in the medulla of lung gotta.
22:07
Speaker 3: And so what it does is it monitors It's like
22:12
Speaker 3: a toilet with a bullcock valve. If that oxygen drops
22:17
Speaker 3: down below ninety five ninety four, what happens is the
22:21
Speaker 3: medulla oblungtta sends a signal telling the heart and the
22:26
Speaker 3: lungs to breathe faster, breathe deeper, bring in more oxygen.
22:31
Speaker 3: To compensate. And it also it sends up some sensations.
22:38
Speaker 3: It feels really really and this is a huge part
22:41
Speaker 3: of your training how to deal with those aversive sensations
22:46
Speaker 3: that oxygen deprivation causes. It makes you, you know, it
22:51
Speaker 3: makes you panicky, it makes you busy, and that's part
22:55
Speaker 3: of what you were learning. You were learning how to
22:58
Speaker 3: be how to ignore these resus sensations, knowing that you
23:01
Speaker 3: would get through this and eventually yep.
23:05
Speaker 1: Can I give you just a little anecdote here. So
23:08
Speaker 1: my PhD supervisor, Eugene is a brilliant scientist and he
23:15
Speaker 1: actually looked at and did a study and looking at
23:19
Speaker 1: special forces soldiers or well, he didn't actually do the study,
23:23
Speaker 1: but talks about this study that there's a test that
23:28
Speaker 1: he had taught me a CO two tolerance test. Interesting, right,
23:33
Speaker 1: So basically me and you to do the Coe two
23:35
Speaker 1: tolerance test. And I'm not recommending don't try this at
23:38
Speaker 1: home people, but we basically and breathe in, then breathe out,
23:43
Speaker 1: and then you time when you need.
23:46
Speaker 2: That first breath, right, that that that.
23:49
Speaker 1: Reflex, that breathing reflex that comes from from the deep breath, right,
23:52
Speaker 1: And then what we would do. So say, your views
23:55
Speaker 1: might be thirty seconds, mine might be twenty five seconds.
23:59
Speaker 2: But then we do it again and.
24:00
Speaker 1: We see how much further we can actually go. Right, So,
24:05
Speaker 1: how much can you tolerate a thigh levels of coal two?
24:09
Speaker 3: Right?
24:09
Speaker 1: Because actually that high levels of CEL two that and
24:11
Speaker 1: it's a discomfort tolerance test, right, It is actually predictive
24:17
Speaker 1: of success in special forces training. Right, Those who are
24:22
Speaker 1: able to tolerate high levels of seal to start can to
24:27
Speaker 1: do better on special forces training, which is pretty amazing.
24:30
Speaker 3: That is absolutely fascinating and it's exactly what I'm talking
24:33
Speaker 3: about now. So what the listener has to understand is
24:38
Speaker 3: everything that Paul just described is all autonomic. So this
24:44
Speaker 3: is an automatic reaction to the CO two build up
24:47
Speaker 3: in the bloodstream, causing these feelings, causing you this this
24:52
Speaker 3: urgent need to breathe. In fact, panic disorder is related
24:55
Speaker 3: to this absolutely. But what Paul is describing is how
25:01
Speaker 3: through basically WheelPower through self control. So there's a great
25:07
Speaker 3: example of self control. You can you can suppress, you
25:13
Speaker 3: can inhibit these aversive sensations, you can override them into
25:19
Speaker 3: la oblong gana and not take that breath. And we
25:22
Speaker 3: know now that. Okay, so that's now what's fascinating. Okay,
25:26
Speaker 3: So the important point this is all happening deep inside
25:31
Speaker 3: the brain. These reactions are autonomic. We don't we're not
25:35
Speaker 3: aware of them. We don't control them. We have a
25:38
Speaker 3: whole bunch of them.
25:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, breathing, digestion, exact bates, all of that sort of stuff.
25:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So let me give you another example. Okay,
25:46
Speaker 3: so we've got this mid brain and one of the Okay,
25:52
Speaker 3: so just so people can visualize this seat looking at
25:55
Speaker 3: a brain and this is way way down just above
25:58
Speaker 3: the brain stem and just below the olympic system.
26:01
Speaker 1: Can I give you a visual on this because I've
26:03
Speaker 1: done I've done this before.
26:04
Speaker 2: And I just remembered about this.
26:06
Speaker 1: So when I talked about the you know, development of
26:09
Speaker 1: the brain or the layers of the Brian that that
26:12
Speaker 1: try and Brian model. That's golf club a driver, right,
26:17
Speaker 1: and I use the driver as the Brian stand and
26:20
Speaker 1: the mid Brian. And then I take a you know,
26:23
Speaker 1: the cover that goes on the driver, stick that over it.
26:27
Speaker 2: That's your limbic system.
26:29
Speaker 1: And then I get a kid's bicycle helmet and stick
26:32
Speaker 1: it on the top of that and there's cortex, right.
26:35
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's just wonderful, right, and I will I
26:40
Speaker 3: will steal that. You're welcome, okay. So now, so we're
26:45
Speaker 3: looking at this mid brain now, and so there's a
26:49
Speaker 3: whole bunch of homeostatic systems. So Paul just mentioned another one.
26:55
Speaker 3: It's a big one. We need a certain amount of
26:58
Speaker 3: energy glucose in our bloodstream, and if our energy drops,
27:06
Speaker 3: it triggers in a little tiny part of the mid
27:10
Speaker 3: ring called the ventral tegmental area, the VTA. It triggers dopamine.
27:19
Speaker 3: So dopamine, we call it. It triggers the seeking drive,
27:23
Speaker 3: looking for food or looking for sex as it happens.
27:26
Speaker 1: And a lot of people misunderstand dopamine, don't it because
27:29
Speaker 1: a lot of people think dopamine is the pleasure chemical.
27:32
Speaker 1: Absolutely right, But go directed behavior and motivation, isn't it.
27:36
Speaker 2: It's to get you to drive to do something.
27:38
Speaker 1: And when you have a tim tom, dopamine's going got
27:42
Speaker 1: another one?
27:43
Speaker 2: Not tasted? Good, get another one.
27:45
Speaker 3: Okay, I hope everybody understands what you just said. That's huge.
27:51
Speaker 3: So what Poll's distinguishing between is the dopamine system and
27:56
Speaker 3: the opioid system, Now, there was a study done around
27:59
Speaker 3: fifty by Milner and Olds, and it's one of the
28:02
Speaker 3: greatest of all studies of the twentieth century. And what
28:06
Speaker 3: they did was they gave rats a dopamine pump, and
28:12
Speaker 3: so the rats could just press the liver and get
28:16
Speaker 3: another shot at dopamine. And then right beside it they
28:20
Speaker 3: put food. So the rats they just they wanted, you know,
28:27
Speaker 3: give me another shot at dopamine, another shot of dopamine,
28:29
Speaker 3: in fact, to the point where they would kill themselves,
28:34
Speaker 3: starved to death, even though the food was right beside it.
28:40
Speaker 3: So that just to keep on getting that buzz that
28:43
Speaker 3: you get from dopamine. That that's we call it psychic energy. Now,
28:47
Speaker 3: this is a very important point for parents today because
28:52
Speaker 3: our kids are exposed to what's called the hook model,
28:57
Speaker 3: which is a way of triggering dopamine. And so what
29:00
Speaker 3: we find is that kids will let's say, spend ten
29:05
Speaker 3: hours playing some god awful video game where the what's
29:11
Speaker 3: driving them is the game is a masterpiece, and how
29:14
Speaker 3: to how to give them that shot of dopamine. Yes,
29:17
Speaker 3: ubsolutely trigger, but then they're ignoring all of their all
29:24
Speaker 3: of their physiological needs, their need to sleep, their need
29:27
Speaker 3: to eat.
29:28
Speaker 2: Okay.
29:29
Speaker 3: Can I tell you one last discovery? I mean we
29:31
Speaker 3: can Okay. So that's a real cool one. Right. So,
29:34
Speaker 3: now we've got the mid ring controlling seeking controlling dopamine.
29:40
Speaker 3: In nineteen twenty nineteen, they discovered there is a special
29:46
Speaker 3: kind of dopamine neuron. It's it's in the dorsal raef nucleus,
29:52
Speaker 3: also in the dr also in the mid brank. And
29:57
Speaker 3: this dopamine neuron its function is to drive you back
30:04
Speaker 3: into social relationships, not to be alone. It's called social homeostasis.
30:10
Speaker 2: Wow. Cool. And the reason really cool.
30:14
Speaker 3: It's really cool. And the reason is that that as
30:21
Speaker 3: a as a mam million species, you're not going to
30:23
Speaker 3: survive on your own not very well. Yeah no, so
30:26
Speaker 3: you got to get back. So we have a special
30:28
Speaker 3: neuron driving us. And what happens is when the when
30:35
Speaker 3: the opioid levels drop, so again another homeostatic system. We've
30:42
Speaker 3: got opioids flowing deb endorphins flowing through the bloodstream towing
30:46
Speaker 3: through the brain. When they drop, it produces a unique feeling,
30:53
Speaker 3: a unique aversive feeling. So a couple of minutes ago,
30:56
Speaker 3: Paul was talking about the feelings of CO two accumulm.
31:01
Speaker 3: We have a different feeling when we have too much isolation,
31:07
Speaker 3: and that feeling is what we call.
31:10
Speaker 2: Loneliness, longing and loneliness, right and.
31:13
Speaker 3: Bringing and loneliness. And so what they are finding now
31:16
Speaker 3: we're putting two and two together, is that So you've
31:19
Speaker 3: got this kid who is really overstressed, and to deal
31:24
Speaker 3: with the kids. To deal with his stress, what the
31:27
Speaker 3: kid does is he starts playing Call of Duty or
31:29
Speaker 3: whatever over and over. The games make no sense. The
31:33
Speaker 3: games are absurd, but from a neurobiological point of view,
31:38
Speaker 3: they make total sense. You're getting your shot at dopamine.
31:41
Speaker 3: The number one complaint of these kids who get addicted
31:45
Speaker 3: is they feel lonely, interesting, interesting, And the reason is
31:51
Speaker 3: because they're social. Dopamine neurons are firing, driving them back
31:59
Speaker 3: into social relationships. The Internet does not give it. And
32:05
Speaker 3: the reason it doesn't give it is, you know, I
32:08
Speaker 3: like looking at you. You got a nice face. You're
32:11
Speaker 3: not nobody say that, he and my mom. But what
32:18
Speaker 3: I really need from you if I'm going to bring
32:21
Speaker 3: down my own stress, is I need tactile stimulation. I
32:25
Speaker 3: need because we have receptors, yeah, that release that release
32:30
Speaker 3: opioids and I.
32:31
Speaker 1: Tell you who knows this very well, shopping clothing, shopping
32:35
Speaker 1: assistance right when you try and jack it on or
32:39
Speaker 1: they just get that little light touch and there's a
32:41
Speaker 1: certain speed that releases all of this neuro chemistry that
32:46
Speaker 1: increases trust in your life that.
32:49
Speaker 3: No, you're really good at this. That's exactly right, and
32:51
Speaker 3: that's what we're trying to do. You ask the question
32:53
Speaker 3: right at the beginning about how neuroscience what's happened is
32:58
Speaker 3: changing our views of behavior, and you just gave it
33:02
Speaker 3: a great example. So we've got all these businesses now
33:06
Speaker 3: mostly coming from the US.
33:08
Speaker 2: That are.
33:11
Speaker 3: Triggering dopamine. They figured out how to get that dopamine
33:14
Speaker 3: release in what we eat of everything, yep. And so
33:19
Speaker 3: you've got a generation now where they're showing us all
33:23
Speaker 3: of the signs of hyperdopaminergic activities. So we're getting anxiety
33:29
Speaker 3: breaking out, we're getting loneliness and so on and so on.
33:34
Speaker 3: So the key in all this is that, Okay, we
33:40
Speaker 3: now understand that somehow this lower part of the brain,
33:47
Speaker 3: this homeostatic part of the brain, sets the stage for
33:53
Speaker 3: problems or doing great. What causes homeostatic imbalance? That's the key.
34:02
Speaker 3: If there's homeostatic imbalance at the bottom of the brain,
34:05
Speaker 3: it goes up the neuroacxis, it goes up the Olympic
34:09
Speaker 3: system all the way up to the prefrontal cortex. So
34:12
Speaker 3: that's our question. Our question is what causes systems to
34:16
Speaker 3: get out of whack? What causes you know, the thurs,
34:20
Speaker 3: the hunger, and the answer is always the same, excessive stress.
34:29
Speaker 1: Critically, then talk about how we can all self regulate
34:32
Speaker 1: to improve our lives.
34:34
Speaker 3: What causes homeostatic imbalance, that's the key. If there's homeostatic
34:42
Speaker 3: imbalance at the bottom of the brain, it goes up
34:46
Speaker 3: the neuroaxis, it goes up the Olympic system all the
34:49
Speaker 3: way up to the prefrontal cortex. So that's our question.
34:52
Speaker 3: Our question is what causes systems to get out of whack?
34:56
Speaker 3: What causes you know, the thurs, the hunger, And the
35:01
Speaker 3: answer is always the same, excessive stress. Stress, excessive stress.
35:08
Speaker 3: So we need stress, we're bathed in stress. We have
35:13
Speaker 3: a wonderful This is again a very recent discovery we
35:16
Speaker 3: now know. I don't know if this is too much, but.
35:19
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm loving it.
35:21
Speaker 1: I'm loving it, and I'm sure our listeners are loving,
35:23
Speaker 1: it's fascinating stuff.
35:24
Speaker 3: Okay. Deep in the mid brain, there's another little system,
35:28
Speaker 3: it's hugely important, called the pery aqueductal gray PhD. So
35:34
Speaker 3: it has neurons that are triggered by stress. So the definition,
35:43
Speaker 3: the scientific definition of stress is anything that requires us
35:49
Speaker 3: to burn energy to maintain homeostasis. Okay, that's all it is.
35:56
Speaker 3: So everything is a stress in that sense.
36:00
Speaker 2: Stress, hold, stress, hunger, stress, solid.
36:02
Speaker 3: Okay, everybody understand what Paul just said. I hope so okay,
36:06
Speaker 3: So all of these stimuli are stresses, and they're causing
36:09
Speaker 3: our brain to burn energy. So how come we don't
36:11
Speaker 3: burn out? How come we don't go into that overstress
36:15
Speaker 3: state called alostatic load. The answer is that in the
36:22
Speaker 3: in the peg, in the perioqueductal gray. On the one hand,
36:25
Speaker 3: you've got these you've got neurons that release CRF, and
36:30
Speaker 3: you also have neurons that release beta inendorphins.
36:36
Speaker 2: Okay, yep.
36:37
Speaker 3: Beta endorphins turn off they they turn off the stress response.
36:43
Speaker 1: That the feed back lip is it because when we
36:46
Speaker 1: get cortisol, c RF ends up with cortisole and the
36:49
Speaker 1: bloodstream and that.
36:50
Speaker 2: Stimulate feetbacklip right, exactly right, So we don't get this
36:54
Speaker 2: runaway up of stress.
36:56
Speaker 3: Okay, So then so if you think about what Paul
36:59
Speaker 3: just so, Now, what happens if there's excessive stress. If
37:06
Speaker 3: there's excessive stress, the opioid system can't keep up, we
37:10
Speaker 3: can't turn off, we can't counter the CRF or the
37:15
Speaker 3: or the ACTCH or the or the cortisol. And then
37:19
Speaker 3: what happens is you start getting all the wear and
37:22
Speaker 3: tear of over stress. You get what Cellier called general
37:27
Speaker 3: adaptation syndrome. You get physiological problems, you get psychological problems.
37:34
Speaker 3: So here's the million dollar point. Okay, this is all
37:39
Speaker 3: really interesting. So we know that we know that you
37:46
Speaker 3: need to you need to try to maintain balance homeo
37:54
Speaker 3: state static balance in the mid ring. Yeah, why why
37:58
Speaker 3: is that such a big deal? Why not just say, Okay,
38:01
Speaker 3: you know, I've got these impulses coming from my mid
38:04
Speaker 3: brain and all they gotta do is I got to
38:06
Speaker 3: inhibit them the way Paul did with the CO two
38:08
Speaker 3: build up. And the problem is that when you get
38:13
Speaker 3: homeostatic imbalance at this deep level of the brain, it
38:17
Speaker 3: turns off self awareness, it turns off the vmPFC.
38:26
Speaker 2: Right, vent tomato prefront the cortex exactly.
38:29
Speaker 3: And that's you know, that looks like an obvious survival mechanism.
38:36
Speaker 3: When we were in periods of over stress. The brain
38:42
Speaker 3: blocks the aversive sensations coming up from the mid brain. Right,
38:48
Speaker 3: So here's a really okay, so this is complicated. Let's
38:53
Speaker 3: let me give you an interesting example of this. We
38:56
Speaker 3: have a wonderful system to prevent us from over ea. Okay,
39:02
Speaker 3: so we produce when our energy drops, the brain produces
39:07
Speaker 3: a neural hormone called graylan. And then when we've eaten enough,
39:12
Speaker 3: we've got enough energy, it produces leptin. That turned it
39:14
Speaker 3: off if you override the left, and it produces unpleasant sensations.
39:24
Speaker 3: So just think about how you feel on Christmas dinner, right,
39:27
Speaker 3: so you feel bloated. You know, all these are all
39:31
Speaker 3: the aversive sensations that These are all the aversive sensations
39:38
Speaker 3: that get us to stop eating, just like the aversive
39:43
Speaker 3: sensation that get us to breathe. Okay, but the PEG
39:49
Speaker 3: turns off to the NPFC, right, so we don't. Actually,
39:57
Speaker 3: it's not that we are choosing to over ride these sensations.
40:01
Speaker 3: The sensations are blocked.
40:03
Speaker 1: Interesting, and that's why they can run away, is it?
40:08
Speaker 3: Yeah? Exactly right?
40:09
Speaker 2: Right.
40:10
Speaker 3: So, and so now you've got you know, you've got
40:15
Speaker 3: a whole industry designed to trigger overeating, designed to trigger
40:21
Speaker 3: the individuals in excessive stress. They are not aware of
40:28
Speaker 3: the signals that the leptin is sending telling them to
40:31
Speaker 3: stop eating. They don't process it, they don't feel it.
40:36
Speaker 3: So the problem with overeating or obesity or whatever is
40:41
Speaker 3: not a lack of willpower. It is not a self
40:46
Speaker 3: control issue. And so instead we say it's a self
40:50
Speaker 3: regulation issue in Canon's sense. So what we have to
40:55
Speaker 3: do is we have to learn how to regulate our
41:00
Speaker 3: stress so that we don't go into that over stress state,
41:06
Speaker 3: so that we don't begin to do things that are
41:08
Speaker 3: harmful for our health or mental health and so on.
41:13
Speaker 3: I haven't explained that very well, but do you get it?
41:15
Speaker 2: Yeah?
41:16
Speaker 1: And look, you've just you've opened the window on my
41:19
Speaker 1: next question. You've sort of started to answer. So what
41:22
Speaker 1: is the difference between self regulation and self control?
41:27
Speaker 3: Okay, so self regulation? So I mentioned that we have
41:30
Speaker 3: these and forty seven different definitions, but we only use one.
41:34
Speaker 3: We use the original one, So we use cannons and that,
41:39
Speaker 3: and all it meant was how you manage stress.
41:44
Speaker 1: So self regulation just about stress, just about stress.
41:49
Speaker 3: And so there are five domains of stress that we
41:52
Speaker 3: look at and I won't go into them now, but
41:55
Speaker 3: there are. We did a stress analysis, so we had
41:59
Speaker 3: six hundreds, so we broke down, we did factor analysis,
42:02
Speaker 3: and we got five domains biological, emotional, cognitive, social, and
42:06
Speaker 3: pro social. So self regulation begins with self regulating mechanisms
42:16
Speaker 3: that the brain has. But in times of excessive stress,
42:22
Speaker 3: such as I'm going to spare you this, don't bother
42:26
Speaker 3: reading your newspapers this morning. Nothing good is going to
42:29
Speaker 3: come from that. Okay, so this is but this is
42:35
Speaker 3: a very stressful time for the world. And so when
42:41
Speaker 3: stress is excessive, and the stress could be in that
42:45
Speaker 3: case social or emotional, or it could be biological, the
42:49
Speaker 3: stress of crowds, the stress of poor sleep, or stress
42:53
Speaker 3: of not exercising, you know, on and on and on.
42:57
Speaker 3: Where it gets trickies when we get into cognitives stress
43:00
Speaker 3: and I can't do that today.
43:01
Speaker 2: That's that's a that's a that's another podcast.
43:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, the podcast. So what happens then is what we
43:11
Speaker 3: have to learn is to recognize the signs of what
43:17
Speaker 3: let's just stick with kids. Now, what are the signs
43:20
Speaker 3: of when a kid or a teen is overstressed. They're
43:25
Speaker 3: in homeostatic in balance.
43:28
Speaker 2: Uh.
43:28
Speaker 3: And that's essentially what you're learning in your apply in
43:31
Speaker 3: your PhD and applied psych. So we get lots and
43:34
Speaker 3: lots of signals the kids telling us through their skin complexion,
43:39
Speaker 3: through their movement, through their eye gaze, through their My
43:43
Speaker 3: favorite example is tone of voice. When a child or
43:46
Speaker 3: when a teen is in stress overload, their voice changes,
43:51
Speaker 3: the pitch goes up, they speak more quickly, they speak,
43:55
Speaker 3: they more fragmented, and so on. We are given lots
43:59
Speaker 3: of use for when a kid is in stress overlooking. Now,
44:07
Speaker 3: for us, what we learned in our clinic was that
44:10
Speaker 3: we had to distinguish between misbehavior and stress behavior. Misbehaviors
44:19
Speaker 3: coming from the from the prefrontal, it's coming from the
44:21
Speaker 3: new Stress behavior is coming from the living system. Okay,
44:27
Speaker 3: when it's stress behavior, the kids not really aware of
44:30
Speaker 3: what they're saying or do. These are what they say
44:36
Speaker 3: or what they do is caused by systems deep within
44:40
Speaker 3: the brain, such impulse simpulse. If we punish those impulses,
44:46
Speaker 3: what we're doing is we are dramatically adding to the
44:52
Speaker 3: stress the kids already.
44:53
Speaker 1: Under That's an interesting concept, right, yeah, very very interesting
44:59
Speaker 1: because often we do it right, we punish those impulses.
45:03
Speaker 3: We punish the impulses.
45:05
Speaker 2: So what impact does that have on the kid.
45:10
Speaker 3: It's all bad. So what it's done is the kid
45:18
Speaker 3: will repress. I mean, what we're trying to do is
45:21
Speaker 3: get the kid to repress the impulses. But what that
45:25
Speaker 3: we need that kid or team to learn is why
45:29
Speaker 3: they had the impulses. Where the impulsors are coming from.
45:33
Speaker 3: The impulses are coming from the fact that they're overstressed.
45:37
Speaker 3: So what we need to teach them is to recognize
45:41
Speaker 3: when they are over stressed. Now we have you know,
45:46
Speaker 3: our method is called self rank and it's really it's
45:49
Speaker 3: really these steps. The first step is reframe the kid's behavior.
45:53
Speaker 3: Is it misbehavior? Is stress behavior? The second one figure
45:57
Speaker 3: out what the stresses are. Look, it's always more than one.
46:00
Speaker 3: The third one is reduced to stresses. But let me
46:03
Speaker 3: just mention the fourth, which is big. The fourth is
46:06
Speaker 3: because I know what your wife does. I was reading
46:08
Speaker 3: about that and I was fascinated by it. Okay, The
46:11
Speaker 3: fourth is get the kids to calm. Yeah, and what
46:14
Speaker 3: we're seeing is a generation that do not know what
46:18
Speaker 3: calmness is.
46:20
Speaker 2: Interesting.
46:22
Speaker 3: Yeah so they so, you know, when we think of calmness,
46:25
Speaker 3: and this is the work she does. You know, this
46:27
Speaker 3: feeling of a mind at rest, a mind at peace
46:31
Speaker 3: extending through your body. They never have this. What they
46:35
Speaker 3: have is when they start to get tired, they reach
46:38
Speaker 3: for that shot of dopamine. Yeah, okay, not what they
46:44
Speaker 3: need to do is one of the calming you know,
46:48
Speaker 3: there are many ways to calm yourself, listening to music,
46:51
Speaker 3: going for a walk, going for a run. And what
46:55
Speaker 3: we're after here is we're really after step five, which
47:01
Speaker 3: is called restoration. Restoration is a biological state, so it
47:07
Speaker 3: refers to what the parasympathetic system does, the restorative functions
47:13
Speaker 3: of the parasympathetic system, and that is, you know, you've
47:18
Speaker 3: got to refill the energy. You've got to repair all
47:21
Speaker 3: the cells that have been damage. You've got to boost
47:24
Speaker 3: the immune system, you've got to have cellular growth, the
47:28
Speaker 3: demands of metabolism. So all those are physiological aspects of restoration.
47:33
Speaker 1: And Stuart, just for the listeners, you mentioned the parasympathetic
47:36
Speaker 1: nervous system. Yeah, so just for the listeners, the autonomic
47:40
Speaker 1: nervous system that you talked about two branches sympathetic, parasympathetic,
47:45
Speaker 1: and just to simplify things, for people's sympathetic nervous system,
47:49
Speaker 1: fight or flight, parasympathetic, rest and digest.
47:52
Speaker 2: Right, So two sides of the seasong.
47:54
Speaker 3: I like rest and digest. So with that sympathetic side
47:58
Speaker 3: that Paul's talking about, that's what's happening when the kid
48:00
Speaker 3: keeps on putting his fit his thumb on the dopenbeam button.
48:06
Speaker 3: So they're keeping that sympathetic system hyper arouse. They're keeping Yeah,
48:10
Speaker 3: it's a hyper arrest, and so we need to balance
48:14
Speaker 3: off that other branch of the of the autonomic nervous system,
48:19
Speaker 3: the parasympathetic. But restoration also refers to restoring restoring social relationships.
48:28
Speaker 3: So we're primarily interested in your relationship with mom and
48:31
Speaker 3: dad and your friends, and then finally restoring your your values,
48:37
Speaker 3: your sense of you know, right and wrong goodness. And
48:41
Speaker 3: when you look at the US today, you can see
48:45
Speaker 3: that this is a society in which a very large
48:48
Speaker 3: number are in alistatic overload, overstressed.
48:53
Speaker 1: And so what's and and and to that alistatic overload? Yes,
49:00
Speaker 1: and can we just talk through some of the implications
49:04
Speaker 1: of that alastatic overload, like what it does in the
49:08
Speaker 1: body and the breed.
49:10
Speaker 2: And I can maybe chime in with a few things.
49:12
Speaker 3: Okay, So so this is uh, this is an idea
49:17
Speaker 3: that Bruce McLean. H.
49:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a conversation with him. I mean, he's
49:23
Speaker 1: along with Walter Cannon and Hans Selly for me, they
49:27
Speaker 1: are they are the godfathers of stress.
49:29
Speaker 2: Right.
49:29
Speaker 3: Couldn't agree more? Couldn't agree more? I love Bruce. Uh.
49:32
Speaker 3: So we go back to a book he wrote, I
49:34
Speaker 3: can't remember the day. It's in the eighties. It's called
49:36
Speaker 3: the Hostage Brain and uh. And so what he came
49:42
Speaker 3: up with was an explanation of something that Celia had
49:45
Speaker 3: been talking about. So we know that over stress, what
49:50
Speaker 3: it does, this homeostatic imbalance, is it starts to wear down, uh,
49:59
Speaker 3: the bodies organs. The bodies aren't repairing properly. Things get
50:04
Speaker 3: out of whack. Homeostasis is out of whack.
50:07
Speaker 2: And uh.
50:09
Speaker 3: The whole point of alostasis is that it's a it's
50:12
Speaker 3: a moving target. So not only are we getting are
50:18
Speaker 3: we getting physical uh degeneration, which can turn up in
50:23
Speaker 3: heart problems, which can turn up and digest and you know,
50:28
Speaker 3: ulcers and so on. But we're also seeing the psychological side,
50:32
Speaker 3: So we're seeing we're seeing depression, anxiety disorders. And Salia
50:38
Speaker 3: was the first to tie these two together. Now what
50:46
Speaker 3: we're what we're seeing? You know, you asked me, you know, like,
50:51
Speaker 3: how does this relate to what we're seeing in the US.
50:55
Speaker 3: When an individual goes into alla state alistatic overload. One
51:00
Speaker 3: of the one of the consequences is it shuts down awareness,
51:05
Speaker 3: It shuts down your ability to think through to it
51:13
Speaker 3: shuts down your risk reward system, and you are vulnerable
51:19
Speaker 3: to highly arousing messages. So so I'll give you a
51:27
Speaker 3: really great example. One of the things that the Trump
51:29
Speaker 3: rallies did. And we knew it at the time we
51:32
Speaker 3: were writing about it. It was all set up. So
51:36
Speaker 3: the first thing you've got to do is you've got
51:38
Speaker 3: to send the crowd into hyper aroused. By the way,
51:42
Speaker 3: did you know that the Trump team they had a
51:44
Speaker 3: group of psychologists.
51:46
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, because you can say you can see it
51:50
Speaker 1: in the rallies, right.
51:51
Speaker 3: Yea, all careful, all carefully done, And they were studying
51:58
Speaker 3: the hook model, and so you get them hyper I
52:02
Speaker 3: bet you. I studied Hitler as well, Well, we know,
52:06
Speaker 3: I guess you know this. But in her first autobiography,
52:11
Speaker 3: The First Wife what was her name, Evanna Havanna Trump
52:15
Speaker 3: wrote how Trump kept a copy of Hitler's speeches in
52:19
Speaker 3: his bedside table.
52:20
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't know.
52:21
Speaker 3: You didn't know that. And then she was forced so
52:24
Speaker 3: he he had you know, one of his NDA's and
52:27
Speaker 3: she was forced to reproduce the book and cut that
52:30
Speaker 3: passage out. Wow. Yeah, there you go.
52:35
Speaker 2: Not cool, so unbelievable.
52:39
Speaker 3: So you send them into hyper arousal, right, and then
52:43
Speaker 3: what they did was they they had shills actors that
52:48
Speaker 3: were spread throughout the crowd, and everybody's hyper arousal. And
52:52
Speaker 3: these these actors start shouting, you know, billbab Wall, Yeah.
52:56
Speaker 2: Knock her up, Bill the Wall, locking her up.
52:58
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. And so what happens is, before you know it,
53:02
Speaker 3: your blue brain has been hijacked.
53:05
Speaker 2: And more than neurobiology of a cult, right.
53:08
Speaker 3: This is a neurobiology difficult well said, wow. And so
53:13
Speaker 3: what we're seeing today is people that you know, I mean,
53:16
Speaker 3: they're caught in red brain. The stress levels are unbelievably high,
53:21
Speaker 3: and literally talking about kill the Dems. I kill the
53:26
Speaker 3: Democrats kill the libs. So you know what's the solution?
53:32
Speaker 3: You know, I think about Australia and in my mind,
53:38
Speaker 3: the thing that always comes to my mind in Australia
53:41
Speaker 3: is everybody's outside. Everybody they're walking, they're running, there at
53:45
Speaker 3: the beach, they're having picnics, barbecues. It's a very fit society.
53:50
Speaker 3: It's a very active society. And you don't see this craziness,
53:54
Speaker 3: you really don't. You get a little burst of it,
53:57
Speaker 3: but it's nothing. Yeah, you have to be in the US,
54:02
Speaker 3: just land in the US, and you can feel the stress.
54:06
Speaker 3: You can feel attention, attention y yep. And so you know,
54:12
Speaker 3: I mean, how do we you know, how do we
54:14
Speaker 3: resolve this? Not through self control, but we're going to
54:18
Speaker 3: do it through self regulation. We need to soothe, we
54:21
Speaker 3: need to just like we do with a kid.
54:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you talk, you talk about adaptive and maladaptive
54:27
Speaker 1: self regulation, right, can can we jump into that a
54:30
Speaker 1: little bit?
54:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's a big one. So one of the
54:35
Speaker 3: things that let me give you an example. My clinic
54:40
Speaker 3: was primarily in autism and EGHD clinic. So little guys
54:45
Speaker 3: on the spectrum find uh, you know, they have sensory
54:51
Speaker 3: sensitivities that make certain experiences that you and I take
54:56
Speaker 3: for granted incredibly aversive for them. And that's the term
54:59
Speaker 3: we now exactly. And so they find the energy coming
55:04
Speaker 3: off the mother's eyes, for example, they can find that
55:09
Speaker 3: so strong that it hurts. It's peace.
55:11
Speaker 2: That's why they.
55:13
Speaker 1: Often don't look in the eye, right, it's so overwhelming.
55:18
Speaker 3: It's overwhelming. So gazer version is a defensive behavior, right,
55:24
Speaker 3: But we need to look at mummy's face because we
55:29
Speaker 3: learn so much in breastfeeding. We are learning language, facial expressions,
55:38
Speaker 3: and so this is a maladaptive way of dealing with stress.
55:41
Speaker 3: It reduces the stress in the moment, but it creates
55:45
Speaker 3: further stress down the road when they're four or five
55:49
Speaker 3: and don't have good language or don't have good mind reading. Yeah,
55:53
Speaker 3: So what we find in today's generation are children and
55:58
Speaker 3: teens that have developed all kinds of maladaptive ways of
56:02
Speaker 3: dealing with stress. So, uh, you know, we've done an example.
56:07
Speaker 3: The kid is very stress, is very stress by something
56:10
Speaker 3: that happened at school or whatever, and so they lock
56:14
Speaker 3: themselves up in their room and and you know, spend
56:19
Speaker 3: six eight hours on social media or playing game with it. Yeah,
56:26
Speaker 3: but nature designed us that the primary way for dealing
56:31
Speaker 3: with stress is with your parent. Okay, okay, So it's
56:37
Speaker 3: that interbrate. Now we know that with.
56:40
Speaker 1: The can I sorry to interrupt here because I meant
56:43
Speaker 1: to ask it earlier on that Interbrian connection, because.
56:48
Speaker 2: Every dad was listening to this God? What about may? Right?
56:53
Speaker 1: Is there an interbrilling connection between dad and child or
56:56
Speaker 1: is it just mom?
56:57
Speaker 3: It is dad and job? Oh good and job. And
57:01
Speaker 3: not only is it between dad and child, but we
57:04
Speaker 3: have those interring connections our whole life. In fact, we
57:09
Speaker 3: find when we're working with the elderly that the greatest
57:13
Speaker 3: prediction predictor of medical problems is if they're alone. If
57:18
Speaker 3: we can restore an interbrain in their life, their medical
57:22
Speaker 3: problems declined dramatically.
57:24
Speaker 1: So we can have an integrain connection is really just
57:27
Speaker 1: an emotional connection with another Olympic to Olympic, Olympic.
57:33
Speaker 3: To Olympic, and it's operating with anyone we meet below
57:38
Speaker 3: the surface of awareness, so it's automatic. It's before we
57:42
Speaker 3: say anything.
57:44
Speaker 2: Right.
57:46
Speaker 3: So the very first reaction I have when I saw
57:49
Speaker 3: you today, when you came on, was this is a
57:52
Speaker 3: nice man. Okay, but I was surprised because i'd read
57:56
Speaker 3: your bio and I'm not sure what I was expecting.
57:59
Speaker 3: I think I was expecting some sort of warrior. Ah,
58:03
Speaker 3: but you've got to really you have a very nice
58:06
Speaker 3: you have a very nice smile, nice laugh, and I
58:09
Speaker 3: had processed all that before you said a word.
58:13
Speaker 1: Do you know that's really interesting the it reminds me
58:18
Speaker 1: of the study that they did with university students where
58:22
Speaker 1: they showed.
58:23
Speaker 2: Them a video right of their.
58:26
Speaker 1: Future professor and teaching and it was about thirty seconds,
58:30
Speaker 1: and they asked them to rate them, and then they
58:33
Speaker 1: asked them at the end of the year again to
58:36
Speaker 1: rate them, and it was almost the same. And then
58:37
Speaker 1: they even got it down to seven seconds of the
58:42
Speaker 1: person with no voice right, just seeing them talk and teach,
58:47
Speaker 1: and they asked them to rate them, and then they
58:49
Speaker 1: rate them again at the end of the year, and
58:51
Speaker 1: it's almost identical.
58:52
Speaker 2: So it's that future judgment. Eh.
58:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's that Olympic assessment. Can you can you
58:58
Speaker 3: get somebody to send me just the prince for that.
59:00
Speaker 3: That's a fabulous yeah, yeah, I'll dig that out. Yeah,
59:03
Speaker 3: that's exactly right. Okay, So, and so what's happening now
59:10
Speaker 3: is we have a generation. I said that that doesn't
59:17
Speaker 3: know what calmness is.
59:19
Speaker 1: And this is because because we're just being hyper ararged
59:23
Speaker 1: as kids.
59:24
Speaker 2: I mean, I think about our kids.
59:27
Speaker 1: I got a sixteen and eleven year old, and when
59:30
Speaker 1: they say I'm bored, I'm.
59:32
Speaker 2: Like, that's awesome.
59:33
Speaker 1: That is awesome that you're bored, because your brain will
59:36
Speaker 1: come up with some creative stuff.
59:37
Speaker 2: And by the way, you're not getting on your screen.
59:40
Speaker 3: Oh you do that?
59:41
Speaker 2: Eh?
59:41
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, And that's awesome because there's just
59:44
Speaker 1: so much gimulatory input for kids these days that we
59:49
Speaker 1: didn't have.
59:50
Speaker 2: When we were growing up.
59:51
Speaker 1: Right, Nope, And my guys noticed that, you know, if
59:55
Speaker 1: he's on a video game for a long period of time,
59:58
Speaker 1: which is quite rare, changes Yep, it's absolutely changes. So
1:00:04
Speaker 1: what what what is happening here? Is this just is
1:00:07
Speaker 1: just an over arousal.
1:00:09
Speaker 3: It's a limbic hyper arousal. And there was a fabulous
1:00:12
Speaker 3: study that was done in Sweden. So what they looked
1:00:16
Speaker 3: at was kids had to turn off there, they were
1:00:21
Speaker 3: allowed to play a violent video game and turn off
1:00:26
Speaker 3: the computer at ten o'clock ten pm. And so then
1:00:29
Speaker 3: what they were interested in was when does they amid
1:00:33
Speaker 3: the law in the which is the fear center, When
1:00:37
Speaker 3: does it calm down? And the answer was, and so
1:00:40
Speaker 3: they were. They were imaging them doing the dansery eeg.
1:00:44
Speaker 3: And it took forty six hours. Yeah, I know, so
1:00:50
Speaker 3: so mom and dad, you know, you turn off that machine.
1:00:53
Speaker 3: They haven't suddenly gone into.
1:00:54
Speaker 1: Calm there is, yeah, And I think people need to
1:00:59
Speaker 1: pause and reflect on that, right, so they do. They're
1:01:02
Speaker 1: doing these hyper stimulation, whether it's a video game, whether
1:01:06
Speaker 1: it's that incessant scrolling on social media.
1:01:10
Speaker 2: That when they stop, it's not stopped in the brand.
1:01:14
Speaker 1: Right, there's still a riseal mechanisms going on for a
1:01:17
Speaker 1: period of extended period of time.
1:01:20
Speaker 3: If you can, if you can give people the website
1:01:24
Speaker 3: for the Merit Center.
1:01:26
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah, for sure, for sure.
1:01:28
Speaker 3: They can download. They can download something called a Fayre matrix. Okay, okay,
1:01:38
Speaker 3: So that was invented by Robert Thayer, American psychologists back
1:01:42
Speaker 3: in the nineties. And it's got four quadrants. The bottom
1:01:48
Speaker 3: left is low energy low tension. Above that is high
1:01:55
Speaker 3: energy low tension. Okay. So the left side of the
1:01:58
Speaker 3: matrix it's low tension. The right side top right is
1:02:04
Speaker 3: high energy high tension, and the bottom right is low
1:02:08
Speaker 3: energy high tension. Now for the work that you're doing
1:02:11
Speaker 3: on resilience, what we so we've done our own right,
1:02:15
Speaker 3: and what we find is that kids that are not
1:02:18
Speaker 3: resilient are stuck in bottom right. Okay, low energy high
1:02:29
Speaker 3: What sends a kid? What sends a kid into bottom right?
1:02:32
Speaker 3: And the answer is successive stress? Yes, So what are
1:02:37
Speaker 3: the stresses? Well, you have to you know, you become
1:02:38
Speaker 3: a stress detective. So now what we found is that
1:02:45
Speaker 3: resilience is you know, it varies. If you can get
1:02:50
Speaker 3: the kid into top left, they become much more resilient. First,
1:02:55
Speaker 3: what we want, what we what you discovered in all
1:02:59
Speaker 3: your train was how to get into top right and
1:03:04
Speaker 3: stay in top right for extended periods of time. Now,
1:03:07
Speaker 3: this you'll find really cool. Top right is chick mint
1:03:12
Speaker 3: Holly's flow. Yeah, it's flow is top right, and so
1:03:17
Speaker 3: we can build this. We can build flow. But to
1:03:20
Speaker 3: do that, you have to. Now I'm looking at you
1:03:24
Speaker 3: and I can tell right now what you're doing to
1:03:26
Speaker 3: stay regulated. So you're I'm going to guess you're a runner. Yeah,
1:03:32
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that you work out pretty much every day.
1:03:36
Speaker 3: Watch what you eat. Yeah, I was. I was. I
1:03:40
Speaker 3: noticed that we began filming at seven am Melbourne times.
1:03:44
Speaker 3: So I'm trying to figure out before you came on
1:03:47
Speaker 3: what time you woke up. I'm guessing six at the latest.
1:03:50
Speaker 2: Yes, correct.
1:03:53
Speaker 3: Okay, So you've done all these things to These are
1:03:57
Speaker 3: all adaptive modes of self regular h These are ways
1:04:01
Speaker 3: of and I'm sure you know exactly when you've got
1:04:06
Speaker 3: a wife who specialized in this, you start to get
1:04:08
Speaker 3: over stress and she's gonna say, sweetheart, you know, let's
1:04:12
Speaker 3: bring it down a.
1:04:12
Speaker 1: Bit, and just for I think for it, because we
1:04:17
Speaker 1: talked about kids and maladaption. I think also adults being
1:04:22
Speaker 1: aware that I have an adaptive and maladaptive strategies to stress, right,
1:04:27
Speaker 1: and a mal adaptive one is the one that often
1:04:30
Speaker 1: kicks in after hard days work and your brain comes home.
1:04:33
Speaker 1: Now you come home and your brain goes. I know
1:04:35
Speaker 1: how to sort this ship out. Get me a drink
1:04:37
Speaker 1: or get me some food, right, love it, don't bring
1:04:40
Speaker 1: me carrot sticks?
1:04:41
Speaker 3: Love it? I love it. So what I do so
1:04:44
Speaker 3: personally is I meditate and and so it's just a
1:04:51
Speaker 3: reflex in me now that I know that the second
1:04:54
Speaker 3: I'm getting when I'm starting to feel over stress, it's
1:05:00
Speaker 3: to meditate. So then it becomes a very interesting question
1:05:04
Speaker 3: for adults. Can we learn to recognize when we're becoming
1:05:11
Speaker 3: over stressed? Yes, we want to interrupt the cycle before
1:05:15
Speaker 3: we go into that over stress state where the only
1:05:18
Speaker 3: things are going to help me. Now is that double? So?
1:05:22
Speaker 3: So we so we learn. So we talked about reframing,
1:05:26
Speaker 3: and one of the things you learn as an adult
1:05:29
Speaker 3: is to reframe your own impulses. Certain impulses tell me
1:05:38
Speaker 3: that I'm becoming overstressed, and I give you a great example.
1:05:41
Speaker 3: So one day the director of our institute told me
1:05:47
Speaker 3: that she was really feeling overstressed. And you know, she said,
1:05:51
Speaker 3: you know, it's just like it's it's too much, you know,
1:05:54
Speaker 3: too much CNN. But in fact, in fact what happens
1:05:59
Speaker 3: is that urge to check CNN or whatever it is
1:06:02
Speaker 3: you're checking in Australia agency that that sudden impulse is
1:06:08
Speaker 3: in fact telling you, oh, I'm a little bit my
1:06:13
Speaker 3: energy has come down now, and so now what am
1:06:17
Speaker 3: I going to do to rebalance it? Not going to
1:06:20
Speaker 3: see it n which is actually giving me a shot
1:06:22
Speaker 3: of dopamine, and it's designed to give me news.
1:06:26
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and you look at all of
1:06:28
Speaker 1: the headlines dramaticness and okay.
1:06:33
Speaker 3: Okay, so here's what we all want to know, Paul. Okay,
1:06:36
Speaker 3: so you're so you're starting to feel overstressed? You? Yes,
1:06:39
Speaker 3: what do you do when you feel it? So I
1:06:42
Speaker 3: have I'll get a little thing that I teach to people,
1:06:45
Speaker 3: right called discharge, recharge, reframe. So for me, I just think.
1:06:52
Speaker 1: About the hormones and what's actually going on, right, So
1:06:56
Speaker 1: that build the build up of a adrenaline nor adrenaline
1:07:01
Speaker 1: or a neur language apenephrin nora epenefhyron right.
1:07:05
Speaker 2: And for me, I just think about evolution, right, and I.
1:07:08
Speaker 1: Love it that fire or flight is there to get
1:07:11
Speaker 1: you a fighter runaway.
1:07:12
Speaker 2: Right.
1:07:13
Speaker 1: So the discharge bit is I do thirty to sixty
1:07:16
Speaker 1: seconds of exercise. So if you look right behind here,
1:07:18
Speaker 1: you can see a kettlebell right sitting right there, and
1:07:22
Speaker 1: I'll just have breakes and I'll do kettlebell swings, which
1:07:24
Speaker 1: is an awesome exercise. Thirty to sixty seconds discharge that energy.
1:07:29
Speaker 3: I love it.
1:07:30
Speaker 2: Right.
1:07:30
Speaker 1: Then I recharge by breathing, right, whether it's box breathing
1:07:35
Speaker 1: or resin frequency breathing for just about a minute so
1:07:39
Speaker 1: that I have got rid of the energy, brought my
1:07:42
Speaker 1: brain back to a state where I can now reframe.
1:07:45
Speaker 1: My cognition is online and now I'm more effective at
1:07:48
Speaker 1: reframing than I would be a minute ago.
1:07:51
Speaker 3: I am so glad you just explained all that. So
1:07:55
Speaker 3: we started off when you know, we had this neuroscience revolution.
1:08:00
Speaker 3: So what and now this is the answer, So for everybody,
1:08:05
Speaker 3: for all your viewers, this isn't just a science talk.
1:08:08
Speaker 3: This is about you just got You just got a
1:08:11
Speaker 3: two minute lesson in how to stop this cycle before
1:08:16
Speaker 3: it gets out of control. Everything you just said, I
1:08:19
Speaker 3: think that you're gonna have to come and start working
1:08:21
Speaker 3: with us. That's just that's self ragged. That was self
1:08:25
Speaker 3: rigg That's exactly, and.
1:08:27
Speaker 2: That was my question.
1:08:29
Speaker 1: So and look, we will find this up at some stage.
1:08:33
Speaker 1: I'm just finding this fascinating. So if you're okay to
1:08:36
Speaker 1: keep talking, you.
1:08:37
Speaker 3: Actually have to. I do have to go in two minutes.
1:08:40
Speaker 3: I've got I've got a family outside my door.
1:08:43
Speaker 1: Right So, so apologized to me for today and for
1:08:47
Speaker 1: me for keeping here for twenty minutes. But I'm loving it.
1:08:49
Speaker 1: So my last question, and what role in your model.
1:08:53
Speaker 1: And look, we'll put on self self and dash reg
1:08:57
Speaker 1: dot C. I'll put all the links in and for
1:08:59
Speaker 1: people can go on, look at your awesome work. But
1:09:03
Speaker 1: what role does exercise play and in kids and adults
1:09:10
Speaker 1: being able to having a capacity to self regulated?
1:09:14
Speaker 3: Number one?
1:09:15
Speaker 2: Number one? There you go, simple answer, yeah, yeah, And
1:09:20
Speaker 2: I totally agree.
1:09:20
Speaker 1: And there's a I think a fellow Canadian, Richard and
1:09:24
Speaker 1: I can never pronounce his name, Deemster or Deepster, who
1:09:31
Speaker 1: wrote a book all on toughness, right, and he was
1:09:34
Speaker 1: maybe thirty years ago, was an academic, and I've got
1:09:38
Speaker 1: a brilliant researcher research paper from him about catechola means
1:09:43
Speaker 1: and a bridge from exercise temp to temperament and basically
1:09:49
Speaker 1: saying that basically what he's been saying has really inspired
1:09:53
Speaker 1: me is that by exercising regularly you train your stress
1:09:59
Speaker 1: respond system exactly come to become more effective and more efficient.
1:10:05
Speaker 1: Right And and and for me LinkedIn to that that
1:10:08
Speaker 1: the research showing that special forces soldiers, right, this is
1:10:13
Speaker 1: researched by uh, his name skips me. It will come
1:10:16
Speaker 1: to it, Dennis Charnick. So that special Forces soldiers they
1:10:21
Speaker 1: have a very very sensitive stress responses. A lot of
1:10:24
Speaker 1: people think that they don't get stressed. They do bomb.
1:10:28
Speaker 1: It turns on super quick, just like anxious people when
1:10:32
Speaker 1: there's a potential threat. The difference between Special Forces guys
1:10:36
Speaker 1: and anxious people. As soon as Special Forces guys realize
1:10:38
Speaker 1: it's not a threat, bomb, it extinguishes that stress response system,
1:10:43
Speaker 1: whereas anxious people it's get a lot and on and
1:10:46
Speaker 1: it stays turned on. So for me, the ability to
1:10:49
Speaker 1: extinguish the stress response system is key.
1:10:53
Speaker 2: An exercise I think is very st.
1:10:57
Speaker 3: Okay. So we talked about I do not truly work,
1:11:01
Speaker 3: and we talked about the five stages, and the fifth
1:11:03
Speaker 3: stage being restoration, and what we find in the Special
1:11:08
Speaker 3: Forces research, but also and in champion athletes is remarkable
1:11:14
Speaker 3: restoration that they can And I've once read a line
1:11:18
Speaker 3: that I love you and guys said it was like
1:11:20
Speaker 3: flipping a switch. I can flip a switch and instantly restore,
1:11:24
Speaker 3: and and that stayed with me all the time. But
1:11:26
Speaker 3: we can all learn this, right, we can all learn
1:11:28
Speaker 3: how to flip the switch.
1:11:29
Speaker 1: And I often say the comperence there is a difference
1:11:32
Speaker 1: between relaxation and recovery. Right, tauting your feet up and fection.
1:11:39
Speaker 1: Drinking a bottle of wine is not recovering a restaurant.
1:11:44
Speaker 3: Yeah no, that's exactly right. And we talked and we
1:11:46
Speaker 3: tried to explain there's a difference between calm and being quiet. Yes,
1:11:51
Speaker 3: so yeah, no, you're you're you're you're a self rigger.
1:11:55
Speaker 1: But this has been absolutely fascinating. I'm loving I have
1:12:00
Speaker 1: found it absolutely fascinating and I'm sure our listeners will
1:12:02
Speaker 1: found it very, very fascinating. So please apologize to your
1:12:06
Speaker 1: family from me for keeping you li it.
1:12:08
Speaker 2: I've loved it.
1:12:10
Speaker 1: We're other than is it just self dot rag our
1:12:13
Speaker 1: self self reg self dash reg.
1:12:15
Speaker 2: We'll put it in the notes.
1:12:17
Speaker 1: Is that where they go? Or is there other things?
1:12:19
Speaker 1: You've written a number of books as well. Can we
1:12:20
Speaker 1: get them all on there as well?
1:12:22
Speaker 3: There is another We have an international organization now and
1:12:26
Speaker 3: it's called self rag Global dot com self rag Global
1:12:29
Speaker 3: and that's no hyphens or anything, just self raag Global.
1:12:32
Speaker 3: That's the one we just did. We just did a
1:12:36
Speaker 3: big program for Australia and that was through SRG selfreag Global.
1:12:40
Speaker 1: Okay, cool awesome stuff, mate, This has been fascinating. I
1:12:46
Speaker 1: definitely want to get you on again at some stage.
1:12:50
Speaker 1: Thank you for giving up your time and go enjoy
1:12:53
Speaker 1: your family.
1:12:54
Speaker 3: Okay, I love that. Keep it up, paul I, love
1:12:57
Speaker 3: what you're doing.