Latest / Satellite Gourmet Gastronomy Podcast / #111 TOMOO ODA Sake brewer Sake de Bordeaux

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#111 TOMOO ODA Sake brewer Sake de Bordeaux · Satellite Gourmet Gastronomy Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Dat jij hebt afgestemd op de podcast, staat een Light Gourmet.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Mijn gasten zijn gastronomen die werkzaam zijn in de horecasector of een link hebben met gastronomie in de breedste zin van het woord.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hier kunnen ze hun verhaal kwijt over hun onnoemlijke passie voor koken en de horeca.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Over de cultuur van voedsel en dranken.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: En hoe gastvrijheid de rode draad is en blijft in die mooie sector als die van de horeca.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mijn naam is David Goethaald en ik ben jouw host.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Veel luisterplezier met deze aflevering.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Deze aflevering is opgenomen tijdens het Belgium Stake Festival in het kader van een zesstelige reeks over stake en zoveel meer.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Aflevering 111 is met Tomo Oda San.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Stakebrewer en entrepreneur, founder of Stake de Bordeaux.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Deze podcast gaat verder in het Engels.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Tomo Oda.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: I will introduce you to my viewers and my listeners if that's okay with you.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: But first of all, should I call you?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because normally in Japan we call someone san odo san.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you say, Mr.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: of meneer in Dutch.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: But what shall I call you?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can call me Tomo.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Tomo?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or Thomas, as all the British or Irish friends call me.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I call you from now Tomo Oda.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: You brought Japanese sake into the heart of the European wine country.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Your company is sake de Bordeaux.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: You are the bridge, in fact, between Japanese producers and European tables.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Choosing which sake makes the journey and which the story it carries with it.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Today we talk about that journey from discovery to importing to convincing our country, in fact, Europe, to fall for something completely new.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, not really new, but it has to be more on the map, sake.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: My dearest Odo.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: First, start with your personal story, Odo.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: How did you, as maybe young child, discover sake?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, first of all, I was born in Tokyo.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my parents actually didn't drink any alcohol, so I was in a family that alcohol was quite a stranger to everyday life.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I moved to Ireland to study English for one year when I was 15.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, Irish they drink a lot.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: A lot.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I quickly learned to catch up.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was at the university in Dublin, uh, as all the university students do, they uh I took a part-time job in a Japanese restaurant that was in the 1990s.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it was then a sake available in Europe was uh uh Ishobin, which is like 1.8 liter uh Ozeki Karakuchi, which is a very, very standard.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's a good sake, but it's not like the sake we find today.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So from that on, my sake journey intermittently, I touched and sake quality has really improved in Japan.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And about 20 years later, when I was working in London uh at the Wine Society, which I was working as a marketer in the wine industry, I attended a couple uh IWC Dinah, International Wine Challenge, and all the winning sake were displayed on the table, and it was absolutely astonishing that quality.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I rediscovered sake.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Then I moved to France in 19 uh 2016.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I worked in a totally different field from sake or wine, but in 2021, after the COVID, I had the opportunity of kind of having my second life, so to speak.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then what did I want to do?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of thought about it and I said, I want to really tell the Europeans how good sake is.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I started.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go back first to your first drink.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that in a pub in Ireland?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: How was that?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I it was absolutely disgusting.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I, you know, everybody was praising about Guinness, so I tasted and I was like, ugh, it's not something for me.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it was quickly, you know, I get got- How many times were you drunk?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: In university?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I was count countless.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely countless.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because Irish can hold drink, yes, but me being Japanese native, I get all red and then all sleepy, and you know.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was quite challenging times.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Were you easily accepted in Ireland as a Japanese man in the 90s?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very psychological discussion.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm into people, you know.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was thrown into uh all-mill boarding Catholic school at the age of 15 with absolutely very little English.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't uh uh it wasn't a question of being accepted or not.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had to survive in it.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I quickly fortunately, Japanese education was very good on science, like mathematics.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very good at those things, but I mean the learning not alone f English, but geography or anything that is more kind of a human humanities.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had to learn a second s language, which is French, which I absolutely I I still I I live in.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do you hate it?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't hate it.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I can I can't say that because I live in front I live in France for the last 10 years.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it was one of the most difficult languages for Japanese.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Even so for Belgian people, it's difficult, you know.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Really.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for Flanders, of course, yes.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you said you worked at a Japanese restaurant in Ireland, so you get in contact with your first sake too.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how was that?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, the first sake, I the taste was much better, in fact, much better, much easier to drink than certainly than Guinness, for example.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I kind of liked it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was served hot in like 40-50 degrees temperature, and a lot of Irish people actually loved it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but that was a very standard, there's no different varieties like um ginjo style or gymmai style.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was just one style.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you became an entrepreneur in France.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: You um have now the business sake de Bordeaux.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is it about the drink itself or is it really about the stories behind it?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, um, while there are a lot of importers of sake in Europe already, uh, I decided to make sake in Europe.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't actually import sake, but I actually make it in Bordeaux.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And because the localization of sake is like democratization of sake, um, as you can see in the US, you see a lot of breweries, a large investments going into US sake breweries, and then that that kind of flourishes the sake culture.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Europe is still catching up.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: We already have around 20-25 sake breweries in Europe, but all of us are quite small, quite you know.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: The good thing is that we have freedom because we we are not kind of defined by rules.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody have uh quite a different imagination of what sake should taste like in Europe, which is a great thing.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry, uh the original question.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: My question was do you try to make not import, but make sake for the drinks or the stories behind it?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh a bit of both, because commercial had obviously I have to drink uh make sake that is acceptable in t taste.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So people should like sake, but really having this sake brewery in Bordeaux means a lot in terms of the story, because Bordeaux is a culture of brewing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, everybody knows the Bordeaux wine.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are still like five thousand wine chateaus in Bordeaux, but wine industry is struggling too because not many young people are drinking wine.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, unfortunately.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: But also you do find I think it's around 40 or 50 breweries or beer appearing in Bordeaux in the last 20 years, so it's a capital of fermentation.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't see why sake shouldn't exist in the same kind of region.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And fortunately, just close to the sea in Bordeaux, we find soft water, and sake made of soft water is usually supposed to be a a good quality.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a good region to make sake?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Were there other challenges?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of challenges because, for example, we don't have any machinery specific to sake in Europe.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I need to adapt things that is like used for wine.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say pressing sake after fermentation, I use a wine press.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Things like uh bottling machines.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: As you can see here, I use cork, which is very unusual for a sake.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is, but that's because Bordeaux i I want to be as true to Bordeaux culture as possible, and that brings down the barriers to the locals, because a lot of Europeans still think that sake is some kind of 40-50 degrees distilled alcohol and strong, and you know I heard it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: They they think some some people think it's vodka or something like that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's so strange.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I would never think about that, but even so, it's true.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's because I think they I I know Chinese culture, they have a baijo, which is a distilled uh alcohol made of rice, and a lot of Chinese restaurants offer that at the end of the meal and then call it sake.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to kind of break down the barrier, I use, for example, my sake I use white wine yeast that I can find in Bordeaux.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: In usually in sake, we use uh sake specific yeast kind of made in Japan.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: But then I use a rice that is locally grown in Camargue, which is south of France, and then the water is a local soft water, so I try to make it as local as possible.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And to finish, I have used the method of kind of white wine Bordeaux blending method.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So Bordeaux wine, unlike Burgundy, we like red or white, we we assemble uh white we call it assemblage.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I will have uh semillon and sauvignon and something else, and then the the the winemakers at the end kind of choose and blend.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I did exactly the same.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I made seven different tanks of sake first, and then with a little bit different yeast or different koji or different rice, or you know.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then I made two types of sake, one that is assemblaged together with a white winemaker of the local people, a local famous white winemaker, and the other one is uh Japanese uh sake somly, very famous person, Maria Chiba.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we made two different cubes.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do you mean now, Tomo, if you would stayed with the really Japanese tradition and taste and flavours of Japanese sake, it wouldn't have worked in Europe or in Bordeaux?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I could have chosen the Japanese authentic one.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it might taste like a Japanese sake.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope so.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't really give the authenticity of why I'm doing it in Bordeaux.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because Bordeaux has a a long history and culture of doing winemaking and I want to take the positive areas from that into my sake.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but it's very important.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: If someone here in Belgium would make sake and try to make sake, he would also have to adapt to the country more or less, you'd say now.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a statement.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: That is my philosophy.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the philosophy of everybody.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a common one.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But there are a lot of uh brewers in Europe who would use a very Japanese traditional method or use Yamadenishki from Japan.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing wrong with that.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: My approach is more kind of breaking that barrier.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Easy going, easy going, yeah, localizing the sake.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a good uh tip for even so Belgian makers that they think about your philosophy if they want to try to introduce sake in our country or even in all European countries.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Before we go and taste your sake, what do you love about the drink so much?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: It it actually fits with more food than probably the other other beverages.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can drink it's not here at the moment, but you can drink my sparkling sake, which is made like a champagne style.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can have sake with this one, it is a quite strong sake with 16% punchy, so you can pair it with meat, like red wine.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: This one on the other hand is has a light acidity, lighter, uh fresher.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I can pair that with like oyster.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Bordeaux seasides like Arcasson is a very famous oyster place, and this will go perfectly with.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last one that I made in conjunction with the chateau owner, it says Esther Doisidain.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Doisidain, it's a famous uh sautern winemaker, is an expression of what sake can be in terms of dessert wine.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's slightly sweet, and I can go with cheese, or I can go with um with dessert.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, all right.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I want to learn a lot about sake, you know, Tomo.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And could you introduce me to a few important words or terms about sake?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, the Japanese word of sake is something else, isn't it?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: We call it sake means generally alcohol beverage.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if we say let's go and drink some sake, that doesn't mean always the the sake made of rice.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the sake in Japan is called nihon shu.
• 17:43
  unknown: Yes.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Nihon shu.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Nihon shu it means japanese alcohol, really.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that really designates the ones that are fermented with rice and koji and yeast.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Second, I learned that kochi is a very important ingredient in the sake.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me more about it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is that exactly?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: The easiest way to describe is koji is a specific mushroom.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like with the enzymes.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh a fungus with enzymes that turns because the rice itself doesn't contain sugar.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to make wine, you pick the grape.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Grape already has sugar, you put an yeast, and that turns into alcohol.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the rice, even if you steam it, there is no rice, uh there's no sugar but in only in amino acids.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's uh starch inside.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So turning that starch converting into sugar is what koji does.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you mix that with koji and steam rice and then yeast, and then it starts fermenting in two ways.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Koji is helping the starch into sugar at the same time in the tank.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: The yeast is changing that sugar into alcohol.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Search, I learned about polized rye.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do we say it in English?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Polish, sorry, in English, polish rice.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you polish it, the stronger it becomes.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what's what's about that?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Polishing ratio is very, very important in making sake.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um you see a lot of uh sake with ginjos and dai gingjos.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: They are kind of levels of polishing ratio.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: As you polish the outside of the rice, the outside of the rice has lots of um lipids um and all the things that makes it umami and also a bit of tatsumi, which is um I don't know how you call it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's sometimes not preferred in Jap in Japan.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So by taking that out and polishing into half of the size, which is 50%, we call it Daikinjo, you are left with very, very pure and floral sake.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: In Europe, we are just beginning to have that polishing machine.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people who are using a local rice cannot polish.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm for example using 80% polished, which means I only take out the very outer side.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much the same as what you find in sushi and onigiri rice.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And having that means that it is more punchy, it's more ricey in a way.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a different style.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is there still something else I should know about the basic of the beverage, the drink, the sake?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think you you probably know more than anybody.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I learned and I did research.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: What I find out, for instance, Tomo, is that there are so many styles of sake.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know how many there are?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, I don't I I don't don't I mean no, and they are still having new styles already, do you think?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, because using like wine-ased was not heard of.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: This one I'm going to want to let you taste.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is barrel aged in sortum barrel.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's try.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let's pour it out.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the the the first style that is this the strongest one?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: This one is actually, I should really pour this last, but this one is the most distinct.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Into one and you probably uh should we try that first then?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe first the others?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, okay.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's pouring now, Tomo for our listeners.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and you yourself you should taste.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let me pull the whole okay, the whole three.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: That would be great.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the second one.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right, he's pouring.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is so nice.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've not yes yet tasted sake here at the Belgium sake festival.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's now my uh not my first time I drink sake, but definitely here with you.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's very nice.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start drinking, tasting, and tell me the story behind.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is the first one?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Probably the first one, uh second one and third one.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the reason is that this one I assemblaged with Jean-Jacques de Baudieu of Chateau d'Oazidain.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: He is a very known uh white winemaker, and he has been to Japan several times, so he knows his sake, but not of making, but of drinking.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So his vision of how Bordeaux sake should taste like is him, is in it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's expressed in there.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a 16% alcohol, so it's slightly high.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, sake can go as up as 18-19%, but 16%, and we have kind of suggested him to put some water in unlike wine, we can add water at the end to make it smoother.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, yes.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: But him being a winemaker, he was like, You can't drink water.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing now?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Bringing water into this drink, but divine drink.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he put around two, three percent of water to make it 16%.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's if you compare the with the second one, that one is more traditionally close to Japanese sake.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the first thing I do, I think you have to taste like wine, a smell.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: A smell.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Get me into uh the experience.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I smell the alcohol.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's not really a good sign.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I know nothing about it, Tomo.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So for me it's tasting and and uh having the best drink in your life.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: It has slightly smokiness.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Some I already tasted it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't wait.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't pour it out or or put it here, like throw it out.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'll drink it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good that's a good sign.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good sign.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's very lovely.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's it's a bit fruity also.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: My sake tends to be fruity in the not in the ginjo style.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Ginjo style is fruity in terms of the yeast, like melon or bananas.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: But this one is more fruity in terms of the east.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: More fruity.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it has more acidity compared to a traditional Japanese sake.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a busy sake, if you know what I mean.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you compare that with the second one, that's I wouldn't call it busy, but it's more expressive.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you pair it with food, what would you do?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: That one I would drink it with cheese.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: That one goes with cheese too.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: That one goes with uh smoked ham.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a lot of restaurants actually uh match this with things like mushrooms.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because mushroom has umami and this one, the second one.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, this one.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the third one.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, this is the one.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I can understand.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if you drink the second one, you'll see that that one is has more acidity, more it's both balanced, but it's much bigger in terms of the I will compare it now.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, I will drink it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's more yes.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I I really experience it now.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's more in the mouse, yeah, very round in the mouse.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you Yeah, it stays in your mouth.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just an expert, you know, in wine tasting.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, it has high acidity, it has a little bit more sugar in there, but it really goes with that is done in conjunction with the Japanese somle.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: She is a master in food pairing, and she thought that would go really well with the local food, like oysters.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very good wine, you know, Tomo.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: The second wine.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry, it's a very good sake.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I always think uh think about sake is is poured in cups, but you serve it in.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's also a very big difference.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, okay, sake is in cups, wine is in glasses, but also sake you pour in glasses or you serve in glasses.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, actually, I'm glad that you you made it that error that it's a good wine, because that's how I need to break the boundaries of the local people.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yes, I can serve it in a cup.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, as uh you mentioned, is there anything else you want to know about you you need to know about sake?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sake can be served cold or hot, as I mentioned.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: These ones?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this one, surprisingly, yes.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've never tasted warm sake.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I first thought I would say, ah, warm sake.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: But everyone yesterday also, Yoris Vermeer, Laura Terada, she's the one who serves really warm sake.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I say, Wow, surprisingly, I have to taste that too.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very nice.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because warmth brings out that umami, which is hidden in the in the cook colder sake.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So those two I would suggest to drink cold like wine, because that's how I would like the Bordeaux people to start drinking sake.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it can go warm.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And let's go on to the third, last one.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's the more intensive one, this little bottle.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Show the bottle to the camera once again.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: This bottle I made it after I had an opportunity of standing in a supermarket in a local residential area.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well in France?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: In Bordeaux.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: In Bordeaux.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: About two minutes' walk from my house.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I happened to, you know, go in there and said, I make these sake, I want you to sell it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then she said, Well, stand there as a test for a day and see how many people would try it.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And after letting them try those, uh, fortunately, I I sold out the 24 bottles on one day, which was which was a good thing.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Success.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people who just look at the bottle and says, Sake, I don't want to even taste it because it's too strong or too heavy, or you know.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to bring that barriers down.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I asked Jean-Jacques Daubaudieu of the Chateau d'Oiside, can I use the name d'Oisidain?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of Bordeaux people know your château, because it's a wine, very, very, very prestigious wine.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he said yes.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I it doesn't even say sake here, it says Esther d'Oisidain.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I show them to French people who never drank sake, never want to try sake, and say, Look, uh, let's try with this one, because if you know Douazidain and you trust that label, you would probably taste it.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then a lot of people really loved it because it's uh almost like a hybrid of sake and wine, and this is where Bordeaux does its best because it's uh sake, exactly the same sake as Prestige, this one, but uh it was gone into uh sautern barrel for two weeks to make it slightly sweet, slightly more acidity to I will taste it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I would also use this sake as some dessert sake with desserts or with chocolate or sweets or that would be a very good combo, I think.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, correct?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: That that's that's exactly my was my intention.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And because nowadays it's very rare, but in a traditional French proper dinner, you'll start with a sparkling and of white wine and red wine and then dessert wine.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to know how I can express dessert one in terms of sake, and that's how we made it this morning.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a reason why you put the last one in a little bottle?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is it all about attraction somehow?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, I actually because it's a very sexy bottle.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, do you think so?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's easy-going look.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a small one, so it's I don't know.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's my feeling, it's my guts.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I think, oh, what a nice little tiny bottle.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's available in a big bigger bottle too, but because when you drink like the you know, for the sparkling and two different sakes and go into dessert, nobody unless it's a group of six or eight, would finish a full bottle of dessert wine.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought it will be probably more friendly to people who wants to have a try a little dessert sake in a small bottle.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I'm a making sake de Bordeaux, I am using the Alsace flute, which is not a Bordeaux bottle.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like the Bordeaux green bottle, it's not that sexy, if I may say so.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: But for this, I use exactly the same bottle as the Sautun makers.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all right?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you look back at the way you went and going to be your business, Saco de Bordeaux, you convinced a lot of people there, but how is it today?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do you still have to convince people about drinking the sake?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: What's the reason, do you think?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because Europe already has a very, very, very long tradition of drinking wine in the south and then beer in the north, like here.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if you compare, let's say, just compare um uh beer, Belgian beer, you uh I can't remember, I it's in my masterclass.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Japanese sake is exported, 0.3 million hectolitre of Japanese sake is exported, or 1.5 million.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's about I I think it's about five times more Belgian beer is exported from Belgium to Wildwide.
• 35:07
  unknown: Okay.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So Japanese sake still have a long, long, long way to go.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I keep telling my fellow brewers in Europe that if we convince all the French people, all the European people, to change one bottle of wine a year to drinking sake, we'll be a rich people.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that, because Yoris told me that in Japan itself there are a lot of small brewers that we even help them to survive?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think by having a localized sake for European to start tasting, they may get interested and then they might say, okay, I tried the French sake, I tried the Dutch sake, I tried Italian sake, why don't I try the Japanese sake next?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another angle of having a sake.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Who's got a duty to introduce?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a gastronomy?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: The catering business, the service?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of uh like Michelin star chefs and some lies started to have sake in their tasting list, and it's a great thing to have because sake does match with some of the food that wine cannot really do well.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how you do it, but that that only limits to certain people to have sake.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why people like me who stands in a supermarket and trying to convince the locals.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of top-down or bottom-up.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need both ways of doing it.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that that's why Tomo uh events like this here in Antwerp, yeah, uh organized by Jonas and his team, is also a very good start to introduce.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it he should organize it not only in Antwerp, but also in Bruch and everywhere in the country, I think.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to convince him and you go on uh with him and so on.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean there are 24 brewers in Europe, and we just recently started European Sake Brewers Association that was set up three days ago.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a new news.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: So um we will collectively put our efforts together to promote our own sake everywhere in Europe.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and we may not forget that brewing a sake is uh more or less a long difficult process, isn't it?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: It is a craft.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's crazy.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is a craft, it is absolutely a craft.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's why I love it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not everyone can brew sake in an instance.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, if you you know, I I'm into beer also, and and and and I know a lot about beer and small brewers, and you know, nowadays if you do some education about brewing beer, you could everyone can brew his own beer.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, really, really it does.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think so, but not everyone, I think, can brew sake.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody should try brewing sake.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a craft, you know.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is a craft.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are a lot of different things that could go wrong.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because as I mentioned, it's a double fermentation property.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about falling down and standing up.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, but having that interest is a first hook to getting to know sake.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So some people would love drinking it, some people love talking about it on the knowledge of it, or some people will say, Why don't I try?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of people in in Europe who said, Oh, I tried this sake, and it went really, really, really wrong.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I know now, and that I know now is even well.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I'm still a second year of brewing, but all the great tojis who is very knowledgeable, very experienced, they always have this.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, last year we did this, but this year we could improve it on there and there and there, and it's it's a never-ending kind of learning process, and that's what I love about.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you you are here already one day.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is the second day.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Did you meet other colleagues today you didn't know before?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And did you already taste some sake?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have tasted a lot of my so-called masters, or some of the sakes that I like Jonas.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did you uh taste his sake already?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the Shinju Shinsu sake?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I have tasted some of the range and then some of the Otemba sake, or some of the um some of the sakes that I know are things that inspire me to get to my sake.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I always need to go back to that so-called textbook taste.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to get to originally, yeah.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then compare.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then all the sakes are improving a little by little every year.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to keep improving.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: So and if you look behind the sake uh culture, what did it for you in your personal life, not as an entrepreneur but as a human being?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I have been working in a desk work for the last, let's say, 20 odd years.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Behind a computer.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Behind a computer.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: I never ever dreamt of making something with my hands, but I always dreamt of it.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm absolutely loving that providing something that is at the same time.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling that very, very big responsibility because you know, if you make mistakes in marketing and then do uh some errors in spreadsheet, it's not going to be dangerous in terms of health.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: This one people are putting into their mouth.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I need to make sure that responsibility, that but I just love creating something with my own hands.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone is born in a family.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has got parents.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do you sometimes think about, oh Mom and Dad, why didn't you learn me how to drink alcohol in earlier days?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: I could start earlier than now, because I believe that everything happens for a reason.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I don't know whether I would have gone into the sake industry if we my parents were heavy drinkers.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a thing to say.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I must say I'm not a heavy drinker myself.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there are a lot of tojis in Japan, the tojis, the sake masters in Japan, who can't even take alcohol, but they can taste.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it's to do with alcohol consumption.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I love drinking sake, I love tasting different things.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it's as you said, it's a craft.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's this is a very important lesson, you know, that maybe we don't drink sake, but we taste sake, we feel sake, yeah, as more or as a lifestyle, maybe.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're drinking or you you're when you're tasting sake, a bit like people who are wine connoisseurs, if you know the story behind it, why he made it, how he made it, that makes it more interesting for you to taste the sake.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and therefore, is what you say, uh Tomo.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: In the gastronomy, the sommelier can tell those stories.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's the one who has to spread the word.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you think?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have a nice talk.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: What should we remember for all times about sake?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: European sake is just beginning now, but we are going to spread that word, some of them catching that kind of local teawa, local style, others more traditional, doesn't matter.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: But we need to have sake as the alternative to beer or wine.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's a beautiful message to give to the people.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the last question: what can I wish for you in your life, in your personal life, in your entrepreneurship, in your sake de Bordeaux?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be I want to be a rich man, but uh you know, I if I was a rich man.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, I would really like people to at least give it a try.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think being open-minded and give it a try.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: You may have tried sake 20-30 years ago, but it has gone a lot of journey to improve the policy.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 45:12
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• 45:32
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• 45:35
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