Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / How To Raise Emotionally Resilient Kids with World-Renowned Psychologist, Steve Biddulph

Transcript

How To Raise Emotionally Resilient Kids with World-Renowned Psychologist, Steve Biddulph · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I think anxiety is what drives family violence. I think
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: what drives crime, drives gang membership, It makes people vote.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: In idiots as leaders of a country.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Everyone.
• 0:22
  Speaker 4: Before we get into this week's podcast, we've got a
• 0:23
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  Speaker 4: anything episode. So all you gotta do if you've got
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: a question that you want me to cover is just
• 1:02
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• 1:09
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  Speaker 4: all put together. And the other thing you can do
• 1:19
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• 1:21
  Speaker 4: about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast?
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• 1:30
  Speaker 3: So looking forward to hearing from you now I hover
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: the podcast. Steve Benolf, Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Hello Paul, and hello to everybody listening as well.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: It is very nice and you probably won't like this,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: but just hear a bona fide the legend of psychology
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: being on the podcast. I mean, you are an author
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: of some amusing books, one of which I've got right here,
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: and we were just saying beforehand that's a very old
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: version of your classic Real Boys. I think you've sold
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: more than six million books.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's it's been astonishing and I've been I've
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: been around for a long time. Paul goes back. You know,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: we're tooking forty years that I've been doing it, so
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: it's a slow burn.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: And was the what was the driver to write to
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  Speaker 3: start writing books?
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: My first psychologists job? I had, like probably like you,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: lots of different jobs as a young guy looking for
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: a direction in life. But my first job as a
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  Speaker 1: psychologist was in a family therapy clinic. Which was the first,
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  Speaker 1: probably the first in Australia where we saw the whole
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: family instead of just the kid. And so people used
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  Speaker 1: to take their child to be seen by the psychologists
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: as if that was like getting your car service. And
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  Speaker 1: my Bonds was a pediatrician and it's said, no, we're
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: going to see the whole family. And it was wonderful,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: and we had hundreds and hundreds. And it was in
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  Speaker 1: a country town called lawn System, which was a working
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: class in those days, a mill town. Everyone worked at
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: the mill and so it was a tough place. And
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  Speaker 1: what I quickly saw was that in particular the dads
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  Speaker 1: loved their kids, but they just had such negative ways
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  Speaker 1: of raising them, you know, belting them, telling them they
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  Speaker 1: were no good. And I'd grown up in Yorkshire, which
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  Speaker 1: was the I thought was the world capital of negative parenting.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: It's not mal but you know, but I'm sure it
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  Speaker 1: was the same in Ireland, and yeah, it was.
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  Speaker 3: And it was there that dad was the disciplinarian.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And and what I realized was that they were
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  Speaker 1: doing their best and they and they loved their kids,
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  Speaker 1: and it was just there was a like a rolling
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  Speaker 1: tragedy to see that, you know, one generation destroying the
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  Speaker 1: next basically, and so I thought, no, no good just
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  Speaker 1: sitting in a clinic waiting for people to show up.
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  Speaker 1: I've got to start writing this down, getting the word out.
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  Speaker 1: And so my first book was called The Secret of
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Happy Children, and it was just saying, you know, you
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  Speaker 1: don't have to build kids or tell them they're no good.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there's better ways to get them to cooperate.
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  Speaker 1: And to our surprise, it did well everywhere because it
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  Speaker 1: was the first parenting book that had cartoons in it
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  Speaker 1: and stories, and you know, it was a good read.
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  Speaker 1: But it sold a million copies in Germany because yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because young German parents were really wanting, you know, a
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  Speaker 1: whole different way of doing life, and there were there
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  Speaker 1: were hippies now, and they wanted to love their kids
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  Speaker 1: and they didn't want to go back to the authoritarian
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  Speaker 1: what had happened to their country from authoritarianism. So that
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  Speaker 1: got things started. And so then I realized, well, you
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: can help people with books, because people would be stopping
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  Speaker 1: me in the street and saying, you know, like you'd
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: said yourself, you know it really it helped. And so
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  Speaker 1: I realized that I still wanted to be a psychologist,
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  Speaker 1: But I didn't want to sit in a clinic, and
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  Speaker 1: so I would get out on the road and get
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  Speaker 1: the message out and write easily read books about the
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  Speaker 1: main what I saw was the main problems. And then
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  Speaker 1: the next big problem, of course, was boys. A baby boy.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: You know that someone draw a picture of a baby
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  Speaker 1: boy and a baby girl lying in hospital together, you know,
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  Speaker 1: wrapped up you can't even see what they are. And
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  Speaker 1: I said, but the baby on the left has got
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  Speaker 1: three three times a chance of dying before they twenty
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  Speaker 1: one nineteen. Yeah, I see your face shocked with that. Wow,
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  Speaker 1: nineteen times the chances of ending up in prison, three
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  Speaker 1: times a chance of committing suicide, and three times a
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  Speaker 1: chance of drug addiction. There's this massive risk factor that
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  Speaker 1: just goes with being a boy, and that we had
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  Speaker 1: to do something about that. And I talked to mums
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  Speaker 1: and said, you know what went through you when they
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  Speaker 1: first said to you, it's a boy. You know when
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  Speaker 1: you the baby comes out. You know, in those days
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  Speaker 1: they didn't have scans, you know, the hand a baby
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  Speaker 1: and I say, it's a boy.
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  Speaker 3: What happened?
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  Speaker 1: What actually happens inside you? And most of them said
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  Speaker 1: there was kind of like, oh, you know a boy,
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  Speaker 1: you know, oh.
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  Speaker 3: Crap, you know both huh, I'm happy.
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  Speaker 1: But there's this little plenty in my guard as well
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  Speaker 1: of you know, because this danger is a boy's life
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  Speaker 1: has danger, I'd be frightened for him. And we thought,
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  Speaker 1: that's you know, that's no good. We have to change that.
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  Speaker 1: We want to get to the point where people say, wow,
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  Speaker 1: it's a boy, how sweet? How you know, how wonderful
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  Speaker 1: that it's the sun. And so the world clearly needed
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  Speaker 1: more of They needed more good men and for mums
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  Speaker 1: to not be afraid of boys and to understand their
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  Speaker 1: differences and give them some really clear map. I'm really
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  Speaker 1: big on having a map. You know, this is what
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  Speaker 1: happens at four, this is what happens at seven. And
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  Speaker 1: so you know, you know, all fourteen year olds are hopeless,
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  Speaker 1: you know, don't.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, have you been setting in our host have you?
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  Speaker 3: Because Oscar is now I fourteen, you know, don't panic,
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  Speaker 3: it's it will it will pass.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the story with that one pole.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really interesting actually on that because Oscar, my
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  Speaker 3: little guy, is now fourteen, he's not actually hopeless. He's
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  Speaker 3: actually a really good kid. I think we brought him
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  Speaker 3: up on his diet of stoic philosophy, which has helped.
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  Speaker 3: But what I've noticed, particularly in the last six months,
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  Speaker 3: so he's always been into his sport and it loved
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  Speaker 3: exercising with me, But in the last six months, he
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  Speaker 3: no longer wants to train with me. He wants to
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  Speaker 3: go to the gym by himself and training his with
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  Speaker 3: his mate, and he's creating his own training programs and
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  Speaker 3: stuff like that. And you know, he's kind of got
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  Speaker 3: into a bit of the bodybuilding type training. And I
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  Speaker 3: was initially pushing back and going, mate, you're a sports guy,
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  Speaker 3: you need to be doing sports specific stuff. But you know,
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  Speaker 3: I just thought the other day, I need to let
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  Speaker 3: him go. I need to let him find his own path.
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  Speaker 3: Here he's in that where he's trying to find his
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  Speaker 3: own path. There's all those dopaminergic neurons going off and
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  Speaker 3: thebrill in and I just need to give them a
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  Speaker 3: chunk of autonomy right here.
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  Speaker 1: That's such a relief to hear that you've understood that, Paul,
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  Speaker 1: because what we're saying in Racing Boys is, you know,
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  Speaker 1: six to fourteen is the dad's time, and fourteen to
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  Speaker 1: twenty one. They they're driven to look wider. You know,
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  Speaker 1: dad never has all the ingredients for the man that
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  Speaker 1: they're going to become, and so they have this strong
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  Speaker 1: drive to bring in other, hopefully other terrific male mentors
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  Speaker 1: to build their own kind of man. And if you
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  Speaker 1: were a controlling dad or it was like a big
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  Speaker 1: ego thing with you, you know, no, I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: manage your sport or I'm going to measure creates. It's
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  Speaker 1: always a recipe for disaster because it goes against their nature.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you've put you've built the foundation, and
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  Speaker 1: now there's the time for easing back and letting them
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  Speaker 1: just leave their own way.
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  Speaker 3: And I'll just be there to pack them up when
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  Speaker 3: a disaster.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, yes, you don't. You don't disappear, and I
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  Speaker 1: mean their mom doesn't disappear when they're six either. You know,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: you're right in there. But it's just this openness that yeah,
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  Speaker 1: of course, you know, choose your sports, choose your training.
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  Speaker 1: It's brilliant, brilliant plan.
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  Speaker 3: And how has your advice because you've also written a
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  Speaker 3: book on reaising girls, right, which is again being a
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  Speaker 3: great seller. Has your advice to parents or your approach
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  Speaker 3: been tweaked at all over the last you know, ten years, particularly,
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  Speaker 3: you know, when we see the alarming rates of mental
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  Speaker 3: health issues, particularly in teenage girls, with the rise of
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  Speaker 3: social media and this upwards comparison phenomena that they get.
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  Speaker 3: You know, as I often say, we're meant to be
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: brought up in villages, and even when me and you
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  Speaker 3: we're young, we would go to school and we'd be
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  Speaker 3: comparing ourselves to h a hand for our one hundred
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  Speaker 3: other teenagers of our age, you know, yeah, yeah, and
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  Speaker 3: you're trying to work out where you fit and all
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  Speaker 3: of that. But na people are comparing themselves to the
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  Speaker 3: best little her brush snapshots of thousands of people, and
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  Speaker 3: often it's this upwards comparison, isn't it. They're seeing the
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: people who are doing the best, but they're only seeing
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  Speaker 3: those little snapshots of it, and it really impacts on
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: self esteem, self worth all that. What's your advice to
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: parents around helping kids to navigate these challenges in times
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  Speaker 3: that nobody's got a roadmap for right?
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, your starting point question was what's changed in
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: my thinking? And because with raising girls, even at the start,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: we were saying, you know, don't have computers in bedrooms,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: don't don't have social media accounts when you're when you're eight,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: and so I think people are waking up to that now,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: but we're still see horrendous levels of anxiety. And so
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: we're fixing a lot of the things around the sides,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: but nonetheless anxiety. The new book that the Wild Creature
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Mind Book begins with a mum waking up in the
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: middle of that actually hears the sound in the house,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: stumbles down the hallway, suddenly realize it's her daughter, and
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: her daughter is on the floor of the bathroom, you know,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: soaked in tears, shivering and sobbing. The name's Elie. She's fourteen,
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  Speaker 1: and she's just crushed with anxiety. And this is something
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that I've heard from hundreds and hundreds of you know,
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  Speaker 1: I think probably millions of parents around the world of
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: experiences of having a charge just disintegrate, literally can't face
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: the day. And I got so concerned about this because
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I was, I mean, Paul, I was ready to go fishing,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you know, I was ready to get in my kayak
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: and grow my veggies. But you know, there are six
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: million families who have used my books, and their kids
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: were falling apart, and so I couldn't walk away. I
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: had to try and figure out. It took three or
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: four years. What's the story? You know? I now think
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: that anxiety is the second biggest problem on the planet.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: You know, climate change, of course is the biggest problem
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: on the planet, But I think anxiety comes second. And
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: it's not not unconnected with that.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I was going to I was going to
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: say that. And also, many more females have anxiety than meals.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: When you when you look at statistics, what's going on?
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: Is that? Is that a red herrying in the stats?
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Are they more willing to open up? Or is there
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: something different in the physiology.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Let me shock you and your listeners, Paul, I think
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: that anxiety is just as common in men and boys,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: but they show it in a different way. I think
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: anxiety is what I think it's what drives family violence,
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  Speaker 1: for example.
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  Speaker 3: I think it's what.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Drives crime, drives gang membership, it makes people vote in
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: idiots as leaders of country's you know.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: We can last five days before the election.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: R Yeah, and and and so mail anxiety shows.
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  Speaker 3: Up in different ways.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Right, you've got it, You've got it.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: Okay, interesting, So let's do a deep dive in just
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: around the advice changing because you've bopdeated your books, Has
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: there been anything significant that's changing other than really an
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: emphasis on regulating full use and social media use. I mean,
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: I think this US Surgeon General came out and said
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: this is real, This is very real, and we need
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: to do something about this. And you count wear it
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: for randomized control trials, like everybody gets it.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, yes, that one is thoughted, I think, And
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: you're right. The other thing, which I think is now
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: needed is that and I'm actually going to put into
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: the next edition of Raising Boys is it completely new stuff?
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: And what that is is that we have to very
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: specifically and explicitly teach them how about how to treat women.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: And my take on this, Paul, is because I think
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: what's happened there's a lot of there's a lot being
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: said about this, you know, the whole toxic masculinity business,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: but I've moved past that. I think that when you
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: boil that all down in terms of a method of change,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: all that people are doing is what I call sanctimonious
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: finger wagging.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, I'm so glad you said it, because
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: I think it's become. It's been well intentioned, but it's
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: just not helpful because it's them. Boys are just confused, right, Like,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: do I not be masculine at all? You know, what
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: is Is there any good masculinity? I don't think that's
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: I think you need to talk about ethics and how
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: to treat people and that and just get rid of
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: this inflammatory language. Es.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, And I think part of the problem is that,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: which was what we'd always been on about it, and
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: you're very strong on, Paul, I know, is that we
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: have to put good men in the lives of children.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And that does not mean having some guy show up
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: at your high school and give a speech. You know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: the whole consent movement now is all, well, you know,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: someone will come to your school, they'll give the boys
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: a lecture, which again, you know, it's finger wagging. It
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: has to be that we get the men in the
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: school sitting in small groups with the kids, we get
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: bring a lot more of the dads into the school.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And schools are doing this. Some schools are doing this,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: and they talk about you know, yeah, you can exploit
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: women and you can trash talk women. By the age
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: of thirty, all women will hate you. It's a losing path.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: And there'll be girls that'll have sex with you and
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: they'll think you're cool, and it'll last for about two
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: or three years. Women will wake up to you. If
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you treat people as objects, you're a creep. And women
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: recognize a creep when they see one. And so you
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: have a choice in the way you talk about girls
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: and think about girls and the way you behave around them.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Are you going to be a loser and a creep
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: or are you going to be someone who has actually
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: experiences the amazingness of being loved and befriended and have
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the warmth and respect of women in your life. And
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: as a very clear fork in the road, and I
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: think if men who are got their lives together and
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: are you know, happily relating to women in their lives
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: or have related a man, doesn't matter, you know, it's
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: just going through life successfully, then the young men will
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: look at that and they'll see, Okay, that's what that's
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: what's strong. Healthy masculinity looks like. It's not creepy guys
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: on the internet flashing their jewelry.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: It's not the lakes of Andrew Ti.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it called manrew hate.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah. I mean really, what you're talking about
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: is giving them a good education in good character. Yeah.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: And the mechanism of that is a lot to do
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: with role modeling. Yeah, because it's the right it's the
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: right brain. There's a way that a good man stands
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: in a way that he listens to you in a
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: way that and you can tell if you're with someone.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: This is what I've been writing about in the news,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: things that our right brain reads other people. If someone
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: cares about you, they settle when you know, if you're
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: a teenage boy, you know, and there's a man who's
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: teaching you or guiding you, you can tell whether he's
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: attentive or whether he listens to your point of view,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: whether he hears out you know, your views, whether he
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: even has time for you or not. The big public
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: schools around Australia, I talk to the school principles. They
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: say that these fathers are hopeless. They manage their kid,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: they pay for their kids, they hardly ever see their kid.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: I was working in one of the big public schools
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: and they said, look, uber cars come to pick these
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: kids up to take them home. You know, the schools
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: are asking can they stay in the boarding school when
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: the family only lives three blocks away. There's this broken
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: tradition of fathering in the upper class corporate sector. If
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: you want to have a good childhood, you should be
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: neither rich or poor, because they you want to.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: You know what, I love that. I saw some research
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: in the United States that the mental health of children
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: and particularly teenagers is often inversely proportional to the wealth
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: of the family as it gets to the higher levels,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: because it's basically absent parents often and absent dad, but
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: sometimes both parents working really hard and outsourcing the upbringing
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: of children. And I think it's becoming a real, real issue.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's obviously nurance under this conversation, right, there's
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: all of this. We need to get women in equal
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: leadership positions into the workplace. Equality of pay obviously is
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: a no brainer. But when we do get that, there's
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: so many families where both parents are working really, really
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: hard and doing very long hours. And I'm not talking
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: here about the families that have low sourcial economic status
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: that have to do that to put bread on the table.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about high powered people. We're both working in
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: high powered jobs, earning shitloads of money, having a bucket
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: load of material stuff, but outsourcing the upbringing of their kids.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: And basically all your kids want is time with you.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: Really as they're growing up, we need.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: In raising boys. Right from the very first edition, we
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: were saying, if you work a fifty hour week, fifty
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: five sixty hour week, you will fail as a father.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: And it shook, It shook Australia. You know that that
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: was headlines. It was all over the place in magazine articles,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: and we turned around a sector of that very many dads.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: There were corporate dads going to fathering seminars and learning
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: you know that you can be different to your because
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: we based it on our own dad. You know, our
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: picture of what a dad looks like is that's a
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: walking wallet. Then we just think that's our job. And
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: what I you know, I think I turned around. You
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: see people walking, You see men pushing prams. Now you
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: see dads at the playground walking around with their kids.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: It's not hard. I think part of it is just
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: letting him know. Look, all you've got to do is
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: hang about. Same with girls. You know, if dad takes
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: his daughter to Bunning's on a Saturday morning to get
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: a hot glue gun, and they don't just race home.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: You know, they stop, they have a hot chocolate and
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: they have an ice cream. Then that girl gets the
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: message and it's like unspoken. It's the unspoken stuff, Paul.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: It's like Dad hangs out with me, you know, Me
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and Dad walk the dog three times a week together.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: You know. It's like something in there, Like Dad seems
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: to like my company, So males like my company. You know.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: So if a boy comes and he treats her with disrespect,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: which they will, then she just thinks this boy is
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: an idiot.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, gotcha, because the messaging she's getting. But if Dad
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: is absent, that's saying a different mess yes, right, yeah,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: that's right. It's really interesting just the way society seems
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: to be going, particularly in the Western world, with I
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: think a number of things play into it. I mean,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not religious at all. I'm a recovering Catholic,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: but you know, the breakdown of the church, but more
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: of the community that was associated with it, the morals
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: and ethics, and I don't I know, they don't own
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: morals and ethics, but I think that that is a
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: part of it. I think this drive of materialism and
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: keeping up with the Jones and working ridiculous ours and
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: you know, in Australia, we've got the biggest houses in
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: the world, you know, And me and my wife we've
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: put many conversations about this, like we could do lots
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: of other stuff in business, but we've said we're not
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: going to do that because we want to have balance
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: and we want to be around and we want to
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: be involved in our kids' lives. And I think it's
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: playing quite well, but that it really is important that
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: both parents are really engaged and involved in the kids' lives.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes it is. But as I said before, I
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: think anxiety is a big feature in this. We get
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: frightened that we can't pay the bills, or that if
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: we don't go our private school there'll be too much
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: sexual harassment.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: Ye miss, yeah, yeah.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: And so so that's coming back around to your question.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Was what I began to look at is can we
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: lower can we break the back of the anxiety epidemic
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: because a parent who is anxious is not available to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: their kid. And so I began to look at the
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: the whole science of how anxiety happens, why we are
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: prone to it, and how to disarm and not be
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: anxious even in the face of a horrendous world, so
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: that the in in the wild Creature Mind. What happens
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: with Ellie. She's lucky. She gets a therapist who is very,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: very steady, and who teaches her about her own brain,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: and as a result, her anxiety doesn't this will you
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: know shock people listening, Paul, is that it doesn't go away.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: What it does, yes, it transforms, And basically what it
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: transforms to is incandescent rage. Because Ellie and her school
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: friends are being sexually harassed by some bigger boys every
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: day at the bus stop. They're holding up pornographic images
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: on their phones and pushing them at their faces. They're
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: commenting on their looks. And Ellie has assumed two things
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: that this is just how life is, and that there's
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: no point worrying her parents with it because they're got
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: enough worries already, And so she's sitting on this horrible experience.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: It's almost every day now. The therapist helps her to
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: track her body signals. Her wild creature mind is what
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: we call this body see method, and what she discovers
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: is she's furious. She's just so furious, and in the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: towards the end of the book, she takes action. She
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: talks to her friends, Her friends talk to their parents,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Their parents talk to the principle. There's this whole chain
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: of action that happens, and it's just a brilliant example
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: that we're not about sedating people. You know, does that
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: makes sense?
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: All? I'm going, yeah, I know that absolutely does. I mean.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Anxiety I've always thought is trying to tell you something, right,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: and it's it's trying to tell you something about something
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: that you cur about. So let's dive into the book
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: your nearest books called Wild Creature Mind. So in this
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: you talk about the two different hemispheres everybody will have
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: heard of right brian left brain, and you talk about
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: the work of doctor Ian McGilchrist. You talk about the
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: vaguest nerve, my favorite nerve in the body. So just
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: give people a bit of an overview, a high level
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: of review about where did this idea come from, a
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: few that we've got two minds, and then what are
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: the right and left hemispheres tend to do generally? And
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: then we can sort of dive into the repercussion to anxiety.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, now, what in McGilchrist let people know is was
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: the leading psychiatrist in the UK. It was the medical
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: director of the Maudsley Clinic and very much a heavy
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: hitter in looking at brains and particularly patients with damaged brains.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: And when he left that job he realized that there
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: was something huge going on here. Now. In the seventies
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: there was stuff around about left and right brains. McGilchrist
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: showed that that was basically completely wrong, that the idea
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: that you're left is logical and you're right is the emotional. Yes,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: it was taught in many a management seminar, absolute rubbish
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: because for one part, left brain is it has words,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: it's good stuff, but it is massively prone to bias.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: You give it, you throw it a slogan, you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: like make America again or stop the butt, get Rexit done,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and the left brain just goes ooh okay on purpose.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: So it's it's very defensive bias and prone to to
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: getting caught and in anxiety of course, it just goes
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: in loops round and around. Now you and I are
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: talking with our left brain. You know, I'm putting words together,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I'm shooting them across to you. Your your left brain
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: is shooting words back to me. It looks on the
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: surface like a left brain conversation.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: Because the brokers as breath.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was smoking with the work it's
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: doing here. But in fact, what's really going on is
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: that our right brain is like a super computer, wise
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: profound animal system which is helping me to read the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: pacing of your voice, your breathing rate, the expressions on
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: your face. It's doing that in real time without me
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: making any particular conscious awareness of that. Can we trust
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: it each other? It's coordinating the whole dance of how
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: an interview or a conversation goes on. It does all
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the complicated stuff, you know, Can I trust this person?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Am I safe? Am I talking too much? Am I
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: listening enough? And so? Right brains are the part of
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: us which is wise and understands complexity, deals with complexity,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: and life is complicated. And so you know, if you
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: can't you know, you could never write a manual for
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: how to dance, you know, because dance is kind of
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: a flow thing. You know, you can't write a manual
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: how to know when someone wants you to kiss them.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: You know, you have to just be receptive and respectful
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and yeah and so, but the problem is the right
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: brain doesn't have any words and so if it doesn't
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: trust somebody, you know, you're about to sign a deal
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of buying a house or something, or you know there's
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: a boy come to take out your teenager daughter and
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: he's saying all the right things, you know, But if
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: your right brain is picking up, I don't feel good here,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: it can't say that. What it does, it sends a
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: signal down the middle of your body, down the vagus,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: nerve down that whole system into your organs, and it
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: gives you a little kind of twinge somewhere or a
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: little kind of sort of ye see that feeling. It
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: can be a throat feeling, it can be a bowel feeling,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: you know, heart feeling. And everyone listening right now to
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: this podcast is having reactions in their body. If you're
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: watching this or listening to this, you'll be feeling, you know,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: is this exciting or is it rubbish? Or is it
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: a little bit unsettling. That's a physical sensation. And if
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: we learn and what indigenous people would do, or any animal,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: you know, a panther or a bear or an eagle
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: constantly reads that sensus. What's the what's my next move,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: what's the way to go? And it's a brilliant way
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: to guide you through your day, and we ignored it
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: for hundreds of years. And what Gilchris says, we became
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: a left brain society. We treat each other like objects.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: We treat the world like a big mine and.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: So to be consumed. Right. So this kind of gets
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: into the whole neurovisceral integration theory. Right. And I was
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: a bassel of under Kolk and they score so which
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: I have bought. Actually I think it's there, but I
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: haven't actually read it yet. But so is that all
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: wrapped up in this idea of the wild creature Brian?
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Is that encompasses all of this stuff?
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: As always for my job is to make it simpler.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: You know you haven't read your Vessel Badly cockbook. It's
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: it's on millions of shelves. The thing is that it's
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: not I think it's not as complicated. Can I give
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: an example or a working thing of this? Because I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: want people to get something that they can use. It's
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: always my vow in a podcast or any interview to
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: try and give something you and take away. And I'm
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: a naturally anxious person. I'm on the autism spectrum. I've
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: been anxious for the first seventy years of my life.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: But I didn't want to keep doing that, and so
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: when I started researching this stuff, I started trying putting
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: it into practice. And so if I'm lying in better nights,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: if I wake up in the night and I'm feeling anxious,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: which I used to do a lot because there was
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: many in my family, lots of things, health problems, lots
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: of things to worry about. I learned this sequence from
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: in mcgilchristen from some other people using these methods, that
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: the first thing to do is to say, Okay, I'm
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: feeling bad. Recognize that. And there's a form of words
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: that you use which is really important. And it's a
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: way that people used to sometimes talk in the past.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: They'd say, like in a Jane Austen book, people would
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: say this. He'd say, Oh, there's something in me that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: yearns for the sea. You know, there's something in me
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: that wants to give them a good smack of the man.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It's a it's saying it's not all of me. You understand,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: it's not all of me.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: I really like where you're going here to continue jumping
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: on top.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: So what I would do is I'm in bed, I think, okay,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: not I am anxious, because that is sort of so
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: all consuming, but okay, there's something in me that's anxious.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: And then, and because it's two in the morning, I'm
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: not not in great shape mentally, clarity wise, but I
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: can manage this. There's something in me that's anxious. Where
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: is it? Because every bad state we experience it has
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: it's located somewhere, And so you go down in your
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: body and you look for it, and sure enough, I'm
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: feeling something in me is anxious, and it's around sort
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: of brown my tummy somewhere. And now, straight away what's
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: happened by using those words is you've created a kind
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: of a spaciousness. Part of you is noticing another part
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: of you, so you've already sprung free from being trapped
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: in it classic and then the next step is that
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: you use words to try and describe the sensation. So
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you say, you know, okay, it's kind of a clenching sensation,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and you feel to see if that fits. Now, it
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: never quite fits exactly because as you pay attention to it,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: it's the bodies and this is an incredible the way
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: our body might work. The sensation will begin to clarify.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: It's like, as you notice that wild creature, it'll come
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: out of the bushes a little bit, and so let's say, oh,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: actually I thought it was swirling, but it's actually it's
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: more of a kind of a clenching, and so you
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: try out the word clenching. And what's happening in neurological terms,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: is your left brain is talking to your right You're
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: using language to kind of respectfully check in with the
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: signals coming from your right brain, and your right brain
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: seems to kind of appreciate that. It's like you're relating
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: more constructively to your own self. And so generally what
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: happens in my patients is that they experience that it
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: shifts and it'll go one or two ways. Either it'll
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: just dissolve because you've noticed it, You've got the message,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: and your body is saying thank you for noticing. You're
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: in bed now there's no danger you can fall asleep
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: or else. It'll what sometimes happens if it's a strong feeling,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: sometimes it'll have an upward movement and so it'll come oh,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: it's coming up around my heart. Now, okay, just notice
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: that what is it in the heart. It's kind of
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: a fullness in my heart. What's happening now, Oh, it's
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: coming into my throat and oh, I just suddenly feel
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: tears pricking in my eyes. And there's a beautiful story
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: in the book about an ambulance driver who has this
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: happened in a therapy session and years of trauma comes
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: up into his un Suddenly in his mind, a single
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: word comes into his mind. It's Anita. And he just says,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: it's Anita, and the counselor says, who's Anita? And it
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: was a little girl who died in his ambulance and
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: she'd been hit outside of school and he put her
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: in the ambulance and they've done the job just so well.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Got there.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: They got there in eight minutes, chaos, and mom was there,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: the cool kids were there. He told this little girl,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: you know, we don't worry, we'll take care of you.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: But her injuries were too huge and she didn't survive.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: And he'd had dozens and dozens of incidents in his job.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Any one of those could have been kind of the one.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: But his wild creature mind, that right hemisphere feeds straight
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: into the hippocampus. It can track all your memories. It
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: sorts them, brings them to the fore. Anita was the
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: one that had got to him. But he had never
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: known that before, and so once he and the therapist
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: knew what it was, it was about forgiveness. It was
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: about you know, sometimes you can't help someone even though
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: you promised you would. And I can feel myself tearing
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: up to Stephen remembering that, Paul. It's so huge. But
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: our bodies are so wise, and if we use these
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: body tools, we can get all the way back from
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: down here into the right hemisphere, into the memories, whereas
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: our left brain would have been going. You know, we
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: could have been a thirty to fifty one hundred counseling sessions,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: going round and round and round, cognitive behavior therapist telling us,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: you know, don't be silly, you know nothing wrong. We're
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: now releasing some of those old methods are just so
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: disrespectful of the gravity and the depth. And so people
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: like me and Bessel vander Kolk and all over the
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: world people are saying, use the body, use the right hemisphere.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: We can get people better five times faster if we
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: just use their own built in what every animal has.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: You know, you shudder or you shake, or you cry,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: or you just all of a sudden just let go
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: and your body comes back together again and you're just
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: not anxious anymore. We can we can break this problem.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: It's interesting. What I really like about that number one
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: is that increased interroception, right, which I think is pretty
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: key in all of this. But the fact that you
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: said that there's something in me, because what I hear
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: so often in these days is it's my anxiety or
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: it's my depression, like it's a part of them, it's
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: a permanent part of them, And I think that's really
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: not helpful because people then they're actually part of their
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: whole self concept gets wrapped up in this stuff, whereas
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: you're just like, there's something in me right now.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, I mean it has roots back into Buddhism and
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: all kinds of traditions, and even with like I'm interested
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: in a course in getting less violence and aggression in
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: the world and in families. Then for a person who
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: when someone is angry, they generally completely just flood with that.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: If you can say, you know, there's something in me
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: that's angry, and go to it and focus on it,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: quite often, it turns out it's actually it's kind of
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: in your tummy, and it's fear instead. And there's a
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: thing called alexiphymia, which is a condition of not having
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: any interception and about in wild creature mind. In the book,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: nine out of ten people get it. By the time
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: they've got through the book. We've come at it so
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: many different ways that they can read their body really well.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: That was how we structure the book. But one intent
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: people have alexithymia, which is not it's not something wrong
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: with their nervous system. It's just they have absolutely no
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: idea what you're talking about with anything below the neck.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: So you have to start with, you know, how do
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: you know you're hungry? And they'll sell because it's dinner time,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: you're seeing hard no no clock, no watch, you're in
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: a space station. How do you know you're hungry? They say, oh, well, actually,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: you know, there is a bit something down in my tummy,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: you know, where there's some things that feel like hunger,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: some things that feel like first, how do you know?
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: And you've had too much to eat? Because I've worked
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: with men who've said, you know, the first they know
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: they're angry was they've decked somebody. And there's that little
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: awareness of themselves.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this alexothymia, is there any I don't know that
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: whether there's been studies done, whether there's any history of
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: trauma in people who've had that, Like, is it a
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: reaction to shut down?
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I'm enjoying talking to you, Paul, because you've got you've
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: thought quite very deeply about some of these things. And absolutely,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: if all your body has ever given you is pain,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: then of course you'll shut it down. And if if
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: you talk to people who survived torture and survived sexual
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: assault and sexual abuse as children and so on, they
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: have developed a very handy skill which you have, yeah, association. Yeah,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: not even in their body. I remember working with someone
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: who they would be as a child that took the
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: way they were treated was so horrible. They could take
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: themselves and put themselves in a hole in the plaster
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: of their bedroom all and that was where they lived.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: They could locate their whole self in the in the
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: hole in the wall and only come back out again
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: when it was safe. And what happens, of course, is
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: after a while, you just don't feel your body. And
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: that's where we're saying, because Wild Creature Mind is not
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: is not a self help book. What we're saying, it's
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: a help each other book, because sometimes you'd need someone
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: who can is so safe. This is you know, I'm
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: looking at your face as i'm talking about this, and
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: your eyes, and you're very, very attentive, and you're very present,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: and so someone would feel with you like he's with me,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and there's a steadiness there. And if you're with someone
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: who's steady, you know, if it was a woman client,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: they'd probably need a woman therapist to This is kind
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: of a mothering sort of theme of this person is
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: so steady that they can protect me and they can
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: be with whatever crap and comes pouring out of me.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: They won't be rattled. And only when that's available is
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: it possible to start to go slowly back into your
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: body and feel safe to go there. And one of
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: our worries was we talked to lots of kids who'd
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: been to psychologists when we were writing Wild Creature and said,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: what are your chances of getting someone like that like
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Elligott in the story, And they were telling me maybe
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: one in ten.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is massive. There's Learly, a psychologist at Harvard.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: She's written a book called Dopaminition, and she said she's
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: become very critical of mainstream psychology and psychiatry that's become
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: so tech boxy that she find herself sitting in with
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: patients and they're talking and she's going, which of the
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: boxes in the DSM did I put this person in?
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: And then she realized she'd lost all the skill of
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: the therapist, which is about connection. Right that you know,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: the warrant of the relationship, as you will know, is
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: the biggest thing in the success of not only therapy
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: but medical interactions as well.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And and you can't teach that in
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: a university training. It's a it's a bit of a
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: it's a difficulty. I mean today you can train as
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: a psychologist in online courses. And so we've lost the
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: plot here, and so somehow we've got to get back
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: to the providing people who have got the basic humanity,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the time, the presence, the calmness to really hold these kids.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: And it's because it's hard to get to a therapist,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: and when you get there, you don't want it to
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: not work. A half of all men who go for
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: counseling never return after their first session. It's a manner,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: a whole different you know a problem again.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, at least I'm seeing experience. I'm gonna get
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: your opinion on this, right. You may or may not
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: have an opinion. But I have done four different sessions
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: of breath work, right, because I'm interested in breathwork. So
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: a number of years ago I did a session with
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: a guy called Dan Brulet, who's a very famous breathing coach,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: taught Tony Robbins horw to breathe and it was a
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: full daut session and the last star we did something
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: called holotropic breathing, right, which is this deep breath, rhythmic, cyclical,
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: big breaths in and out, and there's lots of music
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: going on, but this continuous deep breathing for forty to
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: fifty minutes. And I've recently done a couple of sessions
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: down here in the Morning's Financial with a great guy
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: called Barney, and in all of those sessions there have
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: been people who have had emotional breakthroughs, like significant emotional
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: breakthrough And I'm just wondering what that for me. As
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: you're talking, there's a way of through the vegus nerve
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: then facilitating that connection in with their body, but it
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: is it is that There's been so many people in
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: those three or four sessions that have actually come out
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: and said, you know, I remember this thing. Our tears
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: were streaming down my face. There was some woman remembered
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: her childbirth, but people talking about how they felt really
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: healed and open and self. Were any idea what could
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: be going on? Because I find it fascinating. I mean,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: I'm very lucky. I don't have any past issues or
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: stuff like that, so I've just been in the breathing
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: for being in the breathing. Any idea what was.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Going on here?
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: Again?
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do it. You turn here, shuck, you
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: pull again, because I would have real concerns about that.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: And there along the lines of yes, of course you
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: can get people having traumatic memories come up through doing
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: forth breathing exercises. The real issue is the integration of
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: those and the pacing and the sequencing of what comes
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: first and what you heal in which order, and so
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I regard you know, there are some fantastic breathwork practitioners
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: and there are an awful lot of undertrained, ill equipped
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: ones because it's a very Byron Bay kind of a thing.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: You know, we had a workshop people were crying all
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: over the show.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, no, no, no, I know, but it's different
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: to the VIM half type stuff which I've seen a
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: lot of, and the ones that I've been in have
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: been very skilled and interesting. The way they set the
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: whole thing up as well and talk to people, taught
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: people through the experience I thought was very very good.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: But sorry, So do you think that there is then
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: that is is creating that connection, that body breing connection.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: What do you think's going on there that people will
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: just open up so much, well breathing.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's You're right in the sense that you
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: can get emotions happening, you can get memories coming to
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: the surface. It's just that I just want to put
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: on the record a cautionary note. Yeah, because it's in
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: a group, it's unpredictable. There's a time limit to how much,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: you know, are you going to be there for that
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: person for the next two years if they need that,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: And I would rather respect the brain's own sequencing of
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: what it surfaces and when in terms of the safety
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: that you know, when people feel safe, then things will come.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I'd rather do that than kind of dynamite the roadblocks
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: and so.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: So you know, it's it's a nuclear problem.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, And so I've been a psychologist for more than
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: forty five years. I have a strong sense of ethical
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: responsibility and that's what I would bring to this conversation.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: So not we're not We're not encouraging people to go
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: out and do those things. I was just so fascinated
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: by what was actually happening with these pinkles that I'm like,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: what is going on like that? I mean, that's got
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: to be some sort of in vegous nerve integration or whatever.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: I just had a loss to explain it from a
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: physiological That's why I look at it through that physiological lens, right,
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: And maybe that's a very limited lens.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, best of vander Kolk is totally and the
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: whole somatic psychotherapy movement is really blossoming. And because yes,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: your body does hold on to memories. We tell the
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: story of Peter Levine in the book, who was in
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: a car crash and his arm it was just kind
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: of going like that because the windscreen of the car
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: was coming at him and he's lying on the ground,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: you know, going like that because his arm had remembered
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: what to do at the time. It's amazing it is
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: it's amazing stuff. Yes, there is so much that we
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: still do not know.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: And now you talk in your book about the difference
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: between the felt self and feeling give us a bit
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: of an idea.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: It's like the progression we've made as a culture in
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: my lifetime from feelings were seen as something wrong with you.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: If a doctor cried, you know, after you know, went
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: on holiday after a year of uninterrupted being a surgeon
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: and cried on his holidays, he think he was having
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown, where we would now say he just
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: accumulated so much he just really needed to let go.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: That it was good that he was crying, and we
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: know now we talk to our kids about their emotions
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: two thirds of the time. That's all they need to
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: tell us that they're sad and be sad, or tell
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: us that they're angry with another kid at school. It
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: helps to tune into your feelings. The new layer that
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: we're adding in is when the feelings don't go away,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: when our anger goes around and around, or our fearfulness
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: goes around and around. Is to push down to the
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: next layer, which is the sense of felt sense. So
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: if your parents listening to the podcast then you're talking
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: to one of your kiddies and they're upset, and you're
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: sitting with them, and you're really settled in to really
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: hear what's going on. Say to them, I can see
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: you're feeling bad. Where does it live? Where does this
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: bad feeling live in your body? And they'll they'll know,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: they'll tell you, you know, it's in my tummy. It's like
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: a black lump in my tummy. And you don't try
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: and change that. You just steady them with it. You
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: just say, Okay, there's a black lump in your tummy.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: You can feel it really black there. What's it wanting
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: to do? What's it doing now? Or what's it wanting
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: to say to you? And just these gentle inquiries. And
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: it'll always move our body when we give it full attention,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: will always start moving doing what it's trying to complete.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: And so the little boy in the book who's upset
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: with his sister goes from feeling angry with her to
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: realizing that he wishes she was little again so that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: they could play together. She's sending it to a teenager
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and she doesn't want to play with him anymore, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: so he's real you know, it's just such one of
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: those life griefs that just is you know that she's
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: growing up and she doesn't want to hold hands with
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: him at the swimming at the ice skating rink, and
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: you can't fix that. It's just, you know, it's just
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: but at least now he knows. And in the in
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: the it's a true story and in the book, the
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: boy said, anyhow, Mom, I got to get to school,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: and so you know, he's he's got there now, and
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: he's he's okay with it. But that method your question,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: it was. The method is go below the feelings to
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: the felt sense, and it will often be very helpful.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: And you'll be in your felt sense too. You'll be
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: sort of feeling, you know, oh I feel so sad,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: but I hear this, and so your child will sense,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a resonance between parents child that they're
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: regulating each other. And it's very magical and beautiful physiological,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: evidence based thing that humans do.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I'm almost in desper when I think about just how
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: we are medicalizing feelings. We're medicalizing childbirth, we're medicalizing emotions,
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: and this approach is very different. What's your thoughts on this?
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: This seems to be movement in some branches of psychology
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: where any bad feeling can be medicated and bad emotions
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: can be medicated, and then people wanting to get rid right,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: to get rid of bad feelings, to get rid of emotions,
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: to get rid of anxiety. We're kind of coming back
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: to this stuff.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Well, this has a long tail, Paul, because when I
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: was seventeen, my mum was going through the minopause. Then
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: she found me really hard work, and I found her
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: really hard work. And she went to the doctors and
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: was prescribed a valium variant of vailium. And she and
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: I looked it up, you know what had been prescribed,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: because we were mates as well as antagonists half the time,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: and we found that valium was, and this was nineteen
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: sixty nine or something, was the most prospect which the
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: prescribed drug in the Western world. It was like this
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: lid on feminism, but it's like, you know, let's just
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: medicate the massive unhappiness of the whole female gender. We
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: got the Women's movement and people got really pissed at
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: the life that was being put onto women. And my
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: mum benefited from that, my sister and her generation. You know,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: I've got daughters and granddaughters, and that changed, but it
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: still has. The drug companies. They aren't quit.
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of a lot.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Of money and drugs. They'll keep coming back, you know,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: they'll be advertising to the doctors. You know, anxious kids
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: coming in. Haven't got time just to see them, twelve months,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: twelve months waiting list. You put them on these And
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying there isn't a part for this, but
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: it's a thing to buy you some time. Use that time,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: get into counseling, gets you know, have a look at
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: what your body is doing, because your body is not
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: your enemy. It's not something you have to to deaden
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: or dull. It's something you have to set free.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: The title of the book originally was Make Friends with
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: your Wild Creature Mind, and they told me that was
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: too long. But that's the message is whatever's happening something
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: inside you, be patient and attentive and give it some space,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: and it will always have something to tell you, and
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: sometimes it'll be a life changing, transforming thing and you'll
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: never look back.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: There seems to me to be benefits here, not just
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: for people who are struggling with mental health and emotions,
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: but for all people. I think we, as you say,
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: we've become very detached. I mean, I've had experience in
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: the Amazon jungle with Matsis Indian tribes and they they
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: think very differently than we do. They are so much
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: more in touch with their bodies and in touch with
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: nature in general. And I think that and we look
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: at the Aboriginals, and you know, the longest community here
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: in the world in the Aboriginal streamers, who are much
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: more in touch with both their body and their nature.
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: So I presume that the techniques and the stories in
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: your book are applicable for everybody who just wants to
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: get a better sense of what it is to be human,
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: and not just I.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Don't think anyone has read the book with as much
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: exception of totality of it, Paul, because we put it
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: as a range of It's like a spectrum. It starts
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: off with first just playing first aid. You know, you're anxious,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: How can you get through the night? And it goes to, okay,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: there's damage that you've rough, things have happened to you
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: in the past. How can you start to unpack those
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: and heal those? But the third step is this is
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: a different way of being in the world. And McGilchrist
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: says this. He says, a healthy person is in their
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: right hemisphere eighty percent of the time. Now, Indigenous people,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: they walk through the forest, they're not running through their
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: shopping list. No, no, no, it's like open the feeling
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: of being and for people watching and listening, you know
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: you're in your right hemisphere because it feels open. It's
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: like a soft, open awareness. And this is what I'm
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: slowly learning, is to be talking to you or being
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: in my family or going about my life. But I'm
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: aware of my body all the time and can feel
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: the softness of my tummy, and can feel my shoulders settle,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: and feel my breathing coming and going, and so so
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: it's a lovely kind of rich experience. And maybe I'm
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: a bit slower, you know. I'll sometimes often say, look,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: I just I just need to have a bit of
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: a sit with that a bit before I can answer
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: that question. And you can see now I'm kind of
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: just slowing down as I'm doing it. But it's a
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: way of being that's that's actually very responsive. You know
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: those guys in the Amazon jungle, you know if some
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: iver twig snaps, you know, one hundred meters to the right.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: They're registering that.
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I know about it. Yeah, absolutely, walk
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: walking through the jungle of those guys, oh experience.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: And as a result, they feel very comfortable in their
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: own skin and part of nature, which if we don't
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: solve being part of nature, we've only got another fifty years.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: It's a serious as.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: Like it's a fascinating conversation. I am aware of your time, Steve.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Just saw a couple of questions off topic, slightly off topic,
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: how is your decade of for a while going.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: For people watching and listening. When I turned seventy, it
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: occurred to me, and you give me this, giving me
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: this kindly big grin. It occurred to me, that's not
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: just another decade, it's the last decade of last decade
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: of functionality anyway, and that's got to make a difference.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: And I describe in Wild Creature this experience I had
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: on a silent retreat, a meditation retreat, of suddenly feeling
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: an ache in my side of my heart as walking
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: through the bush and it's just seen a gum leaf,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: and I just felt this ache in my heart and
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: I paid attention to it, and it was like a
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: like this opening happened Off. There's going to be a
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: world without Steve Bidoff in it, and I'm I was
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: sort of seeing my own gonness and and then of
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: course coming back. But it's not yet, you know, I'm
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: not dead yet. But it made me very have not
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: made me very, very intensely interested in I don't I
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: don't mind being dead, but I very much care about
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: what I do with the time remaining. Climate change comes first,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: you know, the kids that are going to live after
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: we're gone are going to live in a healthscape unless
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: we can change that. That's first. Second one is my
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: friends and family. How can I love them and care
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: for them to the very end? It was a complete reverse.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: I I'd better go on a cruise. Of course, they
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: mightn't get the chance again, Well it was you know,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: you will not see me on a golf course. I
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: will certainly be, you know, enjoying the world and going
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: slowly and happily appreciating my life in Tasmania. But my
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: concern of an elder is to make things work for
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: the next generation, and so how can I I don't
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: even know the answer to that, Paul, I just I
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: don't know, But I know that that's what I have
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, i'll give you an opinion here. There's a
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you've read the book From Strength
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: to Strengths by Arthur C. Brooks, absolute brilliant book, who
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: talks about the first curve and the second curve of
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: your life, and the second curve starts in the fifties
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: and a lot of people struggle with that move from
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: the first curve to the second curve, and he really says,
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: you know, and that's where midlife crisis happens because all
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: of a sudden you're not as important and that anyway,
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: he said that his belief is that on the second
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: curve of your life, your major role is to disseminate
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: all the knowledge that you have acquired over the years
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: to other people to help them to actually get through
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: their first curve really well. And I think you're a
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: testament to that with your your work that has touched
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: millions of people, that has helped a huge amount of parents,
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: including in our house, to help people through that first curve.
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: So it is really just about you know, doing that,
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: doing the leader.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: Stop here.
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: That's great that you've got a book. Eight Again, when
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: you're at your seventies and year, so I would just
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: encourage you to continue to disseminate.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: It that knowledge because we're all I'm just going to
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: take that graciously and and and that's you know, sweet
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: of you to say so, and and lovely to hear.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: And it's it felt like a Shambali clock. Something was something,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: there was a grace that came into it somehow, And
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: I'm glad it's it's helped. If it's helped anyone, I'm
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: really really grateful.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Bloody hell hasn't helped anyone, it's helped so
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: many people. So on behalf of the world in general.
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: Steve, andarticularly for parents, and and now with your new
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: book on behalf of people.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: With with anxiety who are struggling. A heartfelt thank you.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: You're really welcome. Thank you,