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Nikki Yorgiadis - Affiliate Marketing Isn’t What You Think It Is Anymore · Stacked with Jennifer Laforge

• 0:00
  Jen LaForge: Nikki, welcome to Stacked.
• 0:02
  Jen LaForge: I'm excited to have you here.
• 0:03
  Jen LaForge: Welcome to the impractical white chairs.
• 0:05
  Jen LaForge: I love it.
• 0:06
  Jen LaForge: Thank you for having me.
• 0:07
  Jen LaForge: Please make yourself comfortable.
• 0:09
  Jen LaForge: This is an important conversation, I think, because in all that we've talked about within our space, we've yet to touch on agency.
• 0:18
  Jen LaForge: So before we dive in there, please share with our audience who you are, where you're coming from, maybe how we work together, and then we'll just jump in.
• 0:29
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Yeah.
• 0:29
  Nikki Yorgiadi: That sounds great.
• 0:30
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I'm Nikki Yorgiadis.
• 0:32
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I'm the director of publisher development at Gen 3 Marketing.
• 0:35
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We are a global marketing agency.
• 0:38
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We do focus specifically on affiliate marketing and performance marketing, but we do have many other branches of our business.
• 0:44
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We touch on influencer, performance PR, uh SEO, and now the world of uh AI and GEO.
• 0:52
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So we we touch on a lot of different parts of the marketing landscape now, not just solely affiliate.
• 0:58
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Um, where we work with Jen and her team and Rackatoon Rewards Canada is that they're one of our largest partners and what we call publishers.
• 1:06
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And our clients are advertisers.
• 1:08
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So we manage the likes of large brands, managing their affiliate programs and again other service offerings.
• 1:14
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then a little bit more about myself.
• 1:15
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I am also on the uh Performance Marketing Association, the PMA.
• 1:19
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I counsel, uh I'm the chair of one of the councils there as well, the publisher recruitment council.
• 1:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I do like to talk about all things publishers in the affiliate world.
• 1:28
  Jen LaForge: Perfect.
• 1:28
  Jen LaForge: Uh I got the right person in the right seat as awkward as it is.
• 1:32
  Jen LaForge: Um, so other funny story with Nikki, you and I met at a conference.
• 1:37
  Jen LaForge: Was it Optimism?
• 1:38
  Jen LaForge: I think it was.
• 1:39
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It was Racketon Optimism.
• 1:40
  Jen LaForge: So we met at Rackettin Optimism.
• 1:42
  Jen LaForge: We've been in this industry together for a long time.
• 1:44
  Jen LaForge: And there, not only do we have an instant connection, we're very like-minded in terms of our passion for what we're doing, but we also realize we live pretty much a couple blocks away and we share a very good friend.
• 1:56
  Jen LaForge: And life keeps pulling us closer and closer together.
• 2:01
  Jen LaForge: So this means a lot for you to come on today and to talk about the missing piece, which you uh you've you've you've mentioned, the agency side.
• 2:08
  Jen LaForge: So I'm gonna paint the picture.
• 2:10
  Jen LaForge: If you had listened to a previous episode with Krista Gutteridge, um, we had talked about how in this space we have the retailer and the brand or the advertiser that works through a network that connects into the publishers like Ragchin.ca.
• 2:26
  Jen LaForge: Where does the agency, where does your piece come into that?
• 2:30
  Nikki Yorgiadi: That's uh that's interesting because we almost sit in between, let's say in your timeline, we'd almost sit in between the advertiser and the network.
• 2:39
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We're kind of in that side of the bucket.
• 2:41
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Ironically, myself, I also sit a little bit on the timeline towards the publishers based on my role specifically.
• 2:47
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I'd say as an agency itself, we manage um our advertisers and our our brands.
• 2:54
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So we're helping with those relationships with the networks, like Krista, for example, or Rackiton advertising the network, but we also um manage the publisher relationships.
• 3:03
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So we kind of sit as like a holistic umbrella within the affiliate program, I'd say.
• 3:08
  Jen LaForge: I would say instead of trying to slip you in there, the umbrella is a really good term for it.
• 3:12
  Jen LaForge: And so not every advertiser is using an agency.
• 3:16
  Jen LaForge: Um, why doesn't every retailer use an agency?
• 3:21
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Sometimes it depends, I think, on where affiliate sits within their overarching business model is probably the best way to put it.
• 3:28
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And especially once uh the marketing efforts become larger.
• 3:32
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And if you do want that expertise with an affiliate to really be strategic or really hone in on the benefits that our channel can provide, that's where the the agency can come in as a really big strategic partner, be able to manage everything.
• 3:46
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We obviously manage programs across all different networks as well, affiliate networks.
• 3:51
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So we're not just siloed into one particular bucket, for example.
• 3:54
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We have expertise in programs across the whole network and also regions too.
• 4:00
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So it also can come in handy, even if you have an advertiser wanting to expand regions, having an agency that works across Canada, USA, UK, Europe, Latim, et cetera.
• 4:11
  Jen LaForge: And so also a very global perspective on uh on the the space.
• 4:16
  Jen LaForge: You you mentioned it a little bit about supporting advertisers on things like even um AEO and that changing landscape.
• 4:24
  Jen LaForge: So it would be probably safe to say that a retailer might want to re-examine the use of an agency now with things evolving so much.
• 4:32
  Jen LaForge: Oh, yes.
• 4:33
  Jen LaForge: And to maybe paint that picture a bit more, Nikki, what would you say has been like the biggest shift in publisher marketing over the past few years that would give people a second think about whether an agency makes sense?
• 4:47
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, yeah, we could we could spend our whole time talking about what has changed even in the last few years with publishers specifically.
• 4:53
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think we could take it in two parts because there obviously has been a big shift with AI and LLMs and that usage, even within the last year, let's say.
• 5:02
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But before that, we've had so many publishers shift from just your, you know, your traditional uh loyalty, cashback reward to, you know, buy now, pay later uh within the affiliate space.
• 5:14
  Nikki Yorgiadi: You have your mass media and your content sites, your blogs, influencer becoming a really big portion that are playing within our performance marketing world.
• 5:22
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Even CLO has come into the, into our world, let's say more than what it used to be before because of the performance element.
• 5:31
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Then add the layer of AI, which is ever changing.
• 5:35
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's one one time we hear that they might be monetizing, then the next they're not monetizing.
• 5:41
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But then amongst that, there is this source of validity if you're if you as an advertiser can be featured in AI.
• 5:48
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And they do pull, LLMs do pull from a lot of the partners that we work with, um, especially when it comes to your mass media or your, you know, your authority, authoritari voices um in the space.
• 5:59
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So so yeah, it's um definitely constantly evolving.
• 6:02
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And at least from my side, and I'm super fortunate, especially in PubDev, I get to see the evolution of all publishers or what they're adding or how they're becoming unique to be able to offer more than just what it used to be.
• 6:14
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Maybe instead of one thing, there's now a larger service offering, even from the publisher side.
• 6:18
  Jen LaForge: So, Nikki, there's so much changing in the past few years, but also affiliate, the the size of affiliates within the marketing plan and budgets and performance and what it's driving has expanded exceptionally.
• 6:34
  Jen LaForge: I I believe almost 20% of some retailers are are driving from affiliate.
• 6:39
  Jen LaForge: That's another reason to give pause and say maybe we need to use an agency.
• 6:44
  Jen LaForge: But outside of that, I think there's one question that advertisers could ask to answer that question.
• 6:51
  unknown: Right.
• 6:52
  Jen LaForge: And it is, and I'll ask you, what are advertisers misunderstanding about where consumers are discovering value today?
• 7:03
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think it's a tricky question because there could be a few misconceptions.
• 7:08
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I think a lot of it obvious obviously has to do with the economic climate that we're that advertisers are facing.
• 7:15
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It it isn't, you know, we're living now through a period from tariffs to, you know, cost of manufacturing, let's say or cost for advertisers are increasing.
• 7:25
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I think the misunderstanding comes to the fact that even with that economic shift that they're feeling, it's the same thing with with users and consumers.
• 7:33
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And we're feeling the same restraints.
• 7:35
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And users want to feel like they're earning something for their money going somewhere.
• 7:40
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's very difficult to want to be able to purchase up, purchase something at full price, for example, when you could try and earn rewards, or you know that your credit card might have a bonus, or you use racketin rewards and you want your cash back, or your airline rewards.
• 7:55
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's a plethora of something to feel like your money's going somewhere.
• 8:00
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I do think that there is a misconception where to preserve brand integrity, they don't want to maybe offer some of those strategies, but it is very important because that's how you can get that customer in your door easier.
• 8:14
  Jen LaForge: And that's I'm really glad you you brought that up in terms of the perception that playing in that space might give.
• 8:22
  Jen LaForge: And we are so often compared to influencers because we are influencing uh through a rewarding experience shopping behavior.
• 8:32
  Jen LaForge: Um, but what can you say about the ability for your team to work with a retailer worried about perception?
• 8:41
  Jen LaForge: How to be strategic and not be perceived that way.
• 8:45
  Jen LaForge: Like it's very possible we do it all of the time.
• 8:48
  Jen LaForge: But how does your agency help with that perception block?
• 8:51
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, it's uh it's definitely a tricky one because affiliate, I think, does have that preconceived notion that it's always whether it's coupon or discounting, and we're not a channel that is just solely that part of it.
• 9:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: That of course can be a strategy for sure within any type of advertiser.
• 9:09
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I think the the major thing to consider is the strategy behind how different publishers across the spectrum can provide many different opportunities or campaigns within the larger portion of the funnel.
• 9:22
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So you can work on campaigns that are more for discoverability, right?
• 9:26
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And now we're seeing more campaigns where we want to try and increase visibility in the LLMs, focusing on citations, not just your last click ROAS and revenue.
• 9:37
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But, you know, we are trying to show that look, maybe these partners aren't having the revenue we would typically see.
• 9:44
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We're actually seeing an increase in your um AI citations, your maybe SEO in addition to that.
• 9:50
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think, I think it is changing the perception that affiliate marketing or performance marketing is not just the bottom of the funnel.
• 9:58
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's so much within the entire funnel and understanding so many strategies of where everything sits within that is super important and where there's value, even with racketin rewards.
• 10:09
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's not just, let's say, within a certain part of the funnel.
• 10:12
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's so many campaigns that you could tap into brand awareness and your upper funnel discovery.
• 10:17
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Then you can hit consumers in another period of their journey of their shopping journey.
• 10:22
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I do think it's just it's a lot of education, and we're continually doing that all the time as you know, as the landscape changes as well.
• 10:29
  Jen LaForge: I love that because you just answered three of my questions that I had for you so succinctly, but it was a lot about the funnel and and um I think a big part too that a lot of advertisers struggle with is understanding where in the funnel, but also how to attribute to the different publishers.
• 10:48
  Jen LaForge: Because you said last click and first clip, like and then based on what your strategy is and where in that funnel, whether it's discovery to pure intent you want to be, it's all based on that strategy.
• 10:59
  Jen LaForge: Um, but ultimately it it comes down to the attribution.
• 11:03
  Jen LaForge: What does that actually mean?
• 11:06
  Jen LaForge: And how can an agency support correct attribution and understanding attribution?
• 11:15
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Obviously, most of our programs will start with last-click attribution.
• 11:19
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And that, of course, is the kind of blanket standard within the affiliate in our affiliate world.
• 11:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And most of our programs do still operate within that.
• 11:27
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I think it is providing that education or understanding that if an advertiser wants to focus on certain discoverability or brand awareness with certain types of partners to understand where they play within that scope and understanding that maybe we do have to compensate in a different manner.
• 11:47
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And that's where within the networks, maybe there is a first click attribution model, or maybe it's a multi-touch, or that's where a lot of times in our industry we see flat fee spend come into play in a hybrid model where there will be an investment upfront for those campaigns and offerings in addition to the commission that they're providing.
• 12:09
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think it is really providing that education and understanding what are we looking for, what's the strategy, and then what can we do to compensate correctly based on that ecosystem?
• 12:22
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Because we do know there will be certain partners that will take that last click away from maybe other campaigns that are being focused on.
• 12:30
  Jen LaForge: And so is it safe to say that a traditional attribution model is really based on that last click?
• 12:38
  Jen LaForge: And um when you mention those other signals that are important, what give us a menu of what other signals uh really matter when that traditional attribution model just doesn't work.
• 12:55
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think the main things you have to figure out or for signals, it's definitely your your key KPIs that you want to make sure that you're targeting.
• 13:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: A lot of times, of course, it's the revenue.
• 13:07
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Um, on top of that, we obviously see uh ROAS, like your ROI, uh incrementality, new to file.
• 13:14
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Amongst all this, even with last click and most of our programs being last click, there are just ways that we can either attribute different campaigns to have that value.
• 13:26
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Again, we keep most programs with the last click, but again, that's where some flat fee investment comes into play, or really being able to dive into the analytics to show sometimes there's a halo effect as well.
• 13:37
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So one partner could be driving a lot of the volume and awareness for an advertiser, but you understand as an advertiser, you might see the revenue or converting of your consumers through other partners.
• 13:49
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So sometimes we also see that halo effect and being able to report on the over overarching um performance of the channel, I think is is valuable.
• 13:57
  Jen LaForge: So sometimes the big picture is really what you what you should be looking at.
• 14:01
  Jen LaForge: Exactly.
• 14:01
  Jen LaForge: Um AI is part of every conversation.
• 14:04
  Jen LaForge: You kind of drop little little bits into what we're talking about already.
• 14:08
  Jen LaForge: But when it comes to the attribution model, whether traditional or or your expanded signals, is AI getting in the way of that, challenging that, helping that?
• 14:18
  Jen LaForge: Like where's AI in this picture of attribution right now?
• 14:21
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's a mix, I think, of two of them.
• 14:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's challenging, also exciting, but it is proposing a little bit of a problem.
• 14:28
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And it it does come into the fact that there is a wide array of users now that when they put something into a Google inquiry or a Google search, you're going to see at the top of the fold that AI result coming into play.
• 14:41
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And a lot of times that world is what we're almost calling that clickless world.
• 14:45
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's it's not tracked in the same way.
• 14:47
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And you're seeing the sources appear of where they're citing from, but a user might not necessarily go to that source directly.
• 14:57
  Nikki Yorgiadi: They might just see what's appearing on ChatGPT or Perplexity or OpenAI or Copilot, for example, or Gemini.
• 15:05
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Like amongst the whole array, what you're gonna see is I'm gonna read something and maybe I'm gonna take it at face value and and move on.
• 15:12
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And that's where we're we're losing the chain that we used to rely on from being able to click through.
• 15:18
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I would go on Google and search, and then I'd click on a link, I'd read, then I'd click somewhere else, and maybe I'd then be sent to the advertiser.
• 15:25
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But now we're seeing a shift where I think it's also like attention span that's coming in from social media, from everything.
• 15:33
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think it's just that short attention span of of consumers that we we have to try and figure out.
• 15:38
  Jen LaForge: Yes, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
• 15:40
  Jen LaForge: Um, I think there's two challenges we're faced with.
• 15:44
  Jen LaForge: It's really how AA AI is changing um how we think about SEO.
• 15:51
  Jen LaForge: That was a big thing for a long time.
• 15:53
  Jen LaForge: Now that's kind of not a big thing, but now we're optimizing for AI.
• 15:58
  Jen LaForge: And that's a big challenge in of itself.
• 16:01
  Jen LaForge: But now, as you said, the click gets kind of dropped off there because it's 30 seconds, they take it up face value, they're not going to source.
• 16:09
  Jen LaForge: Why would you say, um, or what what should brands be thinking about right now in that transition and how important um AEO is right now?
• 16:19
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's incredibly important.
• 16:21
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I think it's almost taking some strategies you may have had with SEO and applying it with AEO, but understanding that where affiliate even comes in, or in our world, we can make some of that influence appear from the partners that we work with.
• 16:37
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So now it's understanding how do I evaluate my AI visibility and what am I doing?
• 16:43
  Nikki Yorgiadi: How am I appearing?
• 16:44
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And you're almost taking a look at if brand awareness or if AI is your or AEO is your focus.
• 16:51
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Now you need to understand, well, are we going to look at how many citations and what citations are appearing?
• 16:56
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Almost mirroring what we used to do with keywords, but instead taking it into citations.
• 17:01
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then how do we invest with those partners that are appearing in those citations?
• 17:06
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And who does have that authority that's being pulled from the from the LLMs, let's say at large.
• 17:12
  Jen LaForge: So do you think that's a way to help advertisers with that kind of dead click of of AI where they're not going to the source?
• 17:20
  Jen LaForge: And so even their own independent AEO is driving these results, but they're staying there.
• 17:27
  Jen LaForge: It sounds like by working with the agency and the publishers and leveraging the publisher's AEO is a is a way to position that brand for the click.
• 17:37
  Jen LaForge: Is that is that accurate?
• 17:39
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I I think so.
• 17:40
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I think it really is understanding there from the conversations I've been having with a lot of publishers too, especially coming out of some conferences we just had, there's a lot of efforts for even from their side to show the value from AI in AI terminology.
• 17:55
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So amongst what they're doing in performance in our channel that we can see also showing supplemental reporting, or maybe it's additional dashboards that show more of this information to give a larger story of we're not, here's not just what we're doing in our last click model, but here's all the additional stuff.
• 18:13
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Maybe it's yeah, authority in LLMs, or these are the clicks we're potentially driving, or these are where we're being cited, almost like keyword searches.
• 18:21
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So yeah, I think we're we're seeing that evolution, but this isn't to say to back away from affiliate.
• 18:26
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I would argue it's actually to invest more in our channel because of all the value that we do drive.
• 18:32
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It just will be measured in a in a different manner.
• 18:35
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And we we're just all evolving with it as well.
• 18:38
  Jen LaForge: So I I would agree with you.
• 18:39
  Jen LaForge: Um, but uh for maybe an advertiser not sold, um, what are publishers seeing that an advertiser maybe isn't seeing?
• 18:48
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think what they're seeing is so much variety amongst their audience or how their audience interacts with them as a publisher that the advertiser wouldn't see because maybe the advertiser is only seeing um, you know, a consumer go to their site or a project pay product page and maybe uh drop out and or maybe add something to cart and it stays in their cart and they never fulfill that purchase.
• 19:11
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But what different publishers can see is maybe are they going to other competitors?
• 19:16
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Are they are they shopping at other competitors?
• 19:19
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Uh depending on the publisher type, you can have an incredible amount of data, just like you guys have.
• 19:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Even card-linked offered, like CLO partners have a plethora of data that they can look at and see across the board, not just who's shopping where, time of day, where their where where is their audience coming from?
• 19:38
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Are they prone to shopping or not?
• 19:40
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Are they in that stage of discovery versus closer to being a converting uh partner?
• 19:46
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think there's there's so much that they have, I think.
• 19:49
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And it's it's figuring out almost that just symbiotic relationship between what can a publisher be able to provide their value for their advertiser, what can the advertiser take back and really work as a cohesive unit together?
• 20:00
  Jen LaForge: Right.
• 20:00
  Jen LaForge: So you're almost doubling, tripling, quadrupling a hundred times kind of your visibility into how to get those conversions and what's working and what's not.
• 20:10
  Jen LaForge: So is that fair to say that publishers with a hundred and fifty um retailers within your vertical and what's happening there can certainly influence what you're seeing on your own individual platform?
• 20:25
  Jen LaForge: I think so.
• 20:25
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 20:26
  Jen LaForge: I th I think we could we could say that.
• 20:28
  Jen LaForge: Okay, fair enough.
• 20:29
  Jen LaForge: Um I'm I'm thinking about ASC affiliates, somebody's was a couple weeks ago in New York.
• 20:34
  Jen LaForge: Um and this year it was it felt very fast, furious.
• 20:37
  Jen LaForge: There was an energy, it was busy, it was a little overwhelming.
• 20:42
  Jen LaForge: What were the conversations this year at ASC?
• 20:45
  Jen LaForge: And if you went last year, how are they different?
• 20:47
  Jen LaForge: And this is gonna speak to how much things are changing right now.
• 20:51
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, 100%.
• 20:52
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I can probably speak to ASW to ASE because I usually consistently go to Aphilly Summit West, and I did attend uh Aphilly Summit East this year.
• 21:02
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think it's a very interesting dynamic because just like we spoke about, it's all the conversations of AI and what are we doing in our space?
• 21:10
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Um, how are we evolving our space?
• 21:12
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's also a lot of, you know, what are the what's happening in the paid social world and how's that affecting our world as well, influencer to that side of things.
• 21:23
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think we're really seeing that dynamic, but also honestly, compliance, incrementality, um, especially compliance when it comes to our industry and making sure that, you know, a lot of new partners are being compliant with, you know, from stand down rules to just making sure that there is a compliance, especially as we're seeing AI shopping assistants come into our world as publishers, as we're seeing other publisher types and everybody trying to be that last click.
• 21:50
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Again, it's how do we all work together in different ways or how can you use different strategies?
• 21:54
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I would say even in the span of seven, seven months or so, the conversations are really.
• 21:59
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Heading towards how do we evolve our industry?
• 22:02
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then how are publishers being innovative?
• 22:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And what are they doing to really show different value beyond I'm a publisher type XYZ and then I do this?
• 22:13
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Instead, it's how can I support maybe the strategies that you're focusing on as an advertiser?
• 22:18
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And how can then we help drive sales still in that world?
• 22:23
  Jen LaForge: Through that rapidly changing environment.
• 22:25
  Jen LaForge: Oh, yeah.
• 22:26
  Jen LaForge: So with all of this evolution, AI changing everything months apart.
• 22:31
  Jen LaForge: ASW and ASC were months apart from the conversations evolved tenfold through there.
• 22:36
  Jen LaForge: Um, there's still some marketers who, despite all of this, are still operating in the the traditional playbook.
• 22:42
  Jen LaForge: So it begs the question, you know, what what trade-offs are marketers making right now, kind of staying so heavily in that safe zone and and you know, relying heavily on last click and traditional just running with the publisher.
• 22:57
  Jen LaForge: There's trade-offs happening by kind of staying back in the old world and not embracing this change.
• 23:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, yeah.
• 23:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I would say, and especially from what I see, where I get I am fortunate enough that I get to talk with a lot of different partners across, again, the full funnel.
• 23:13
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I do think it's almost that idea of not being you sometimes there's an apprehension to be first to try a new idea.
• 23:21
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I think some advertisers need to take that step in being innovative or taking the plunge to work with maybe a potential new partner or a new idea or a new campaign and see how it happens without being apprehensive, because if it works for someone, we know what it's like.
• 23:37
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Everybody's gonna start to do it and you might fall behind, or you might be behind in your strategies, or it might cost you more if you can get in at the start and be able to have maybe a smaller investment.
• 23:48
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Um you might actually be ahead of the game and you almost want to be ahead of your competitors.
• 23:52
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I know sometimes there's a lot of apprehension of I don't want to be the first to try something, or what have others done?
• 23:58
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I think in this world, we almost want we almost need advertisers to be more willing to say, I want to be the first here and see what happens.
• 24:07
  Jen LaForge: Um I mean, if they don't move and evolve soon, they're gonna fail.
• 24:12
  Jen LaForge: They could be trying all these new things and fail.
• 24:15
  Jen LaForge: And so it really sounds to me like we we all need to give ourselves permission to fail right now because that's the only way we're going to actually win.
• 24:23
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Exactly.
• 24:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And be able to test because we do know so many advertisers also are getting stuck in GA reporting.
• 24:30
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Like, and and when you're too much in that Google ecosystem, you're missing.
• 24:34
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Obviously, that ecosystem wants to show you one thing, you're not maybe seeing the full picture, or you're not getting that full scope.
• 24:40
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I do think it's a lot of maybe the permission to fail, but I don't even think it's permission to fail.
• 24:45
  Nikki Yorgiadi: You might not fail.
• 24:46
  Nikki Yorgiadi: The whole thing is getting ahead.
• 24:47
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We know there were so many innovative advertisers or really using SEO strategies at the time that ended up getting ahead because they knew how to have that authority or, you know, yeah, domain authority, let's say.
• 25:00
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But now we we almost need to take that same idea into, let's say, AI or other partner types or even CLO, for example.
• 25:08
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think some advertisers need to really be able to have comfort with that investment because there's so much potential there.
• 25:15
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's so much data that they can utilize that's beneficial.
• 25:19
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I do think it is it is scary because affiliate budgets don't always sit as the largest budgets either.
• 25:25
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So it is that conversation of where could we work with maybe other teams or how can we be able to show that extended value beyond what was so siloed for a long time, I think.
• 25:36
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 25:36
  Jen LaForge: Do you think uh speaking of the small budgets, because we're very aware of this as well.
• 25:40
  Jen LaForge: And you know, Krista and I talked too about the lack of education around affiliates um informal um marketing programs, whether university and college.
• 25:49
  Jen LaForge: And it's just such such a big part of the pie right now, but it's just so unknown, uneducated.
• 25:56
  Jen LaForge: How what do you think it's gonna take to change marketers' minds about this space and start actually investing more towards it?
• 26:05
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Are we hopeful that maybe AI is that one way that it does touch our industry and maybe that's the the way that we start?
• 26:13
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I I don't know.
• 26:14
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think it it probably would need to start from our education sources because so many people try to get into marketing or start off and they don't even know what our industry is.
• 26:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I'm one that it happened the same way.
• 26:26
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I had education and degrees and and where my journey took me is different than maybe what I initially had thought of.
• 26:33
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But um, I also think it's just really going to have a play when you have more educated um individuals in those leadership and C level roles within advertisers as well, and really understanding the full marketing picture.
• 26:48
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But again, affiliate will take time to educate because we're never in the forefront of paid social, paid media.
• 26:54
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Those always take the huge budgets because of the likes of, you know, meta and your social media.
• 26:59
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I I do think it it is that fine line between education, but also really showing the value of our channel.
• 27:06
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Again, talking about strategies.
• 27:07
  Nikki Yorgiadi: That's what we do all the time.
• 27:09
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And it's how do we connect the strategies behind what's driving revenue or driving uh what our advertisers are looking for?
• 27:16
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So it's gonna take time though.
• 27:17
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I wish it was a simple, I wish it was a simple answer, but yeah.
• 27:21
  Jen LaForge: By, you know, Q4 budgets open up.
• 27:23
  Jen LaForge: I was hoping you would do that for us, but um, that's fine, Nikki.
• 27:26
  Jen LaForge: Um, right.
• 27:28
  Jen LaForge: Um talking about the strategies made me curious.
• 27:31
  Jen LaForge: Say you have 200 advertisers.
• 27:34
  Jen LaForge: Sure.
• 27:35
  Jen LaForge: Um, is that 200 different strategies, or is there like 10 strategies and you deploy it based on the best fit?
• 27:41
  Jen LaForge: Like what does that look like in your world?
• 27:43
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, in our agency world, it is a mix.
• 27:46
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It is not, there is never a one size fits all, and it's just like anything in the world.
• 27:53
  Nikki Yorgiadi: We aren't gonna think the same or be the same.
• 27:57
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I would say it's maybe not 200 different strategies, but everything is quite bespoke to the advertiser.
• 28:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think the major part is what is being the ask or want from an advertiser, and then what strategies or you know, what is tried and true that we know can fulfill that.
• 28:17
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then what can we also do to be unique and different and push the envelope for that advertiser?
• 28:23
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think it's it's a bit of a mix, but it's not um, it's not one strategy for everybody, for example.
• 28:29
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's it's definitely understanding all partners and what value they provide.
• 28:34
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then what in turn, how can they provide that value to advertiser looking for XYZ, whether it's yeah, incrementality, new to file?
• 28:43
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Is it strictly revenue?
• 28:44
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Is it ROAS?
• 28:46
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So yeah.
• 28:46
  Jen LaForge: So in that conversation where you're sitting down, really understanding what they want, what they need to build that strategy, can you right away tell the difference between an advertiser who wants to really work on creating that long-term value versus an advertiser chasing that the quick conversion?
• 29:05
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Uh I think you can.
• 29:06
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I I think it does come to where the investment is.
• 29:09
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And especially from my side, a lot of conversations, especially as uh with PubDev, it's trying to create that longevity of the partnership and understanding that there's value beyond just uh one campaign.
• 29:21
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Or if one campaign doesn't work, we cut off a partnership.
• 29:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: That that's not the case.
• 29:26
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It for me, part the most important part of a partnership is both sides of that partnership.
• 29:31
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I think um I think once an advertiser understands that you need to maybe continually invest or you need to try new things, or it's not a one-time and then if it didn't work, it doesn't work.
• 29:44
  Nikki Yorgiadi: You also need to understand that an audience needs to see an advertiser more than once.
• 29:50
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Uh we're never gonna just shop if we don't know, you know, where my watch, like the brand of my watch or something.
• 29:56
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Like you need time to discover and then learn and then decide that you do want to make that purchase.
• 30:02
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I do think that um there's so much more for partnerships.
• 30:07
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And sometimes that is missing from advertisers.
• 30:10
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Um again, fortunately, I get to maintain all of our partnerships as best as possible, but it it really is a working relationship.
• 30:17
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's not, I need something, give it to me, and vice versa.
• 30:20
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It really is working together to understand this is what I'm looking for, this is what you need.
• 30:25
  Nikki Yorgiadi: How do we find that common ground or middle ground to really prove out value?
• 30:29
  Jen LaForge: So it sounds like a perfect world, but what would you say, like what percentage of advertisers fall into that just chasing the conversion and you can't really budge them?
• 30:41
  Jen LaForge: And so you just kind of do what they they want you to do, but it hurts you deep down inside because you care about strategy and winning.
• 30:49
  Jen LaForge: What percent play there?
• 30:51
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I do not know.
• 30:53
  Jen LaForge: So scary number, do you think, or is it pretty rare?
• 30:56
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's maybe in between the scary number, and I don't think it's rare.
• 31:01
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I think it it definitely is a decent amount.
• 31:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: But I I think again, it's it's all the education there, but you know, we are seeing budgets getting cut.
• 31:09
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So then the conversation is how do we work without those budgets, right?
• 31:12
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I I think it isn't in between, but you're right, there is a lot of that happening in our in our world.
• 31:18
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, a lot of that happening.
• 31:20
  Jen LaForge: Um, and we see it all the time in our data.
• 31:23
  Jen LaForge: And so it's very obvious when they start to play or strategize and execute and when they're just sitting and and and trying to click and convert.
• 31:32
  Jen LaForge: It's the data tells every story.
• 31:34
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Exactly.
• 31:35
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And you can see it from your side too, because you know when there is that investment or that extra push.
• 31:39
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So and it's tough.
• 31:41
  Jen LaForge: I love what you said too about the consistency because it makes me think about going to the gym.
• 31:44
  Jen LaForge: You don't go to the gym and lift a couple of weights and go for a run and suddenly you look like um, you know, Hulk Hogan.
• 31:51
  Jen LaForge: I don't wish, right?
• 31:52
  Jen LaForge: There's like there's consistency and you have to put a lot of time and effort into it.
• 31:56
  Jen LaForge: And you have to wait for the, you know, the results to show.
• 31:59
  Jen LaForge: And and that is a lot of what, you know, we we communicate with our our advertisers is you have to be visible.
• 32:07
  Jen LaForge: It takes time, it takes consistency to build that valuable base.
• 32:11
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, yeah.
• 32:11
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And I think in turn, like my biggest advice that I give to publishers is really show out your value.
• 32:17
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Like even in proposals, it always comes into what is that extra step instead of just maybe a base proposal.
• 32:23
  Nikki Yorgiadi: What is the strategy behind it?
• 32:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: What is this additional investment giving the advertiser so they can put that get behind it maybe easier than just, oh, I'm I'm reading something and I don't like the the look of it, for example.
• 32:36
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I do think it is a lot of how do we support that strategy?
• 32:40
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And this is the extra value or initiatives we're doing to support that.
• 32:44
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I agree it, it's a it's a work in progress for sure from from both sides.
• 32:48
  Jen LaForge: But job security.
• 32:50
  Jen LaForge: Job security, we'll figure it out.
• 32:51
  Jen LaForge: Um, I have a lot of questions for you, but I think um the number one, I think, takeaway I I would want to give to our audience um is really evolving around the AI component of the affiliate space and the importance of of the agency in the middle of that.
• 33:10
  Jen LaForge: Because just talking to you, Nikki, from earlier this year before ASW to after ASE to even today, you're staying really tight with what's going on.
• 33:21
  Jen LaForge: And you have a lot of different perspectives working with a ton of different advertisers.
• 33:26
  Jen LaForge: And I think that that makes you and your team um exceptionally valuable.
• 33:31
  Jen LaForge: So if you were to leave with a message to advertisers about the landscape that you're deep in right now, and um and and want to pick up the phone and have a conversation with you, what do you want to say to them today to make that call?
• 33:48
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Yeah, I would say um be innovative, uh, want to be ahead of the curve, understand that we're in the weeds and we understand so much of what's going on and to be unique, but understand that we can support a lot of different strategies.
• 34:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And we are really trying to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to AI and how we can support that.
• 34:10
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then also understanding that affiliate is not limiting a factor to that.
• 34:16
  Nikki Yorgiadi: It's actually helping that AI, especially if AI is, you know, your sole focus or diversifying your publisher types.
• 34:24
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's so much value across the board, not just with AI, but also with AI and how we're really taking advancements there.
• 34:30
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So yeah, I would leave it as get on the phone, be able to talk through things and really have an open mind in understanding that affiliate is not just what it used to be.
• 34:41
  Nikki Yorgiadi: There's so much more that we contribute, I think, especially in the current landscape.
• 34:46
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 34:46
  Jen LaForge: So even if you're afraid to be an early adopter, that ship's already sailed, anyways.
• 34:51
  Jen LaForge: But affiliate is big, it's growing, it's becoming a much bigger slice of the pie with much more importance.
• 34:58
  Jen LaForge: An AI component tied to that is ramping that entire concept up exponentially.
• 35:05
  Jen LaForge: So um this is just not something to ignore anymore.
• 35:08
  Jen LaForge: Oh, yeah.
• 35:09
  Jen LaForge: Um, this is not something that advertisers should be throwing a couple dollars to.
• 35:13
  Jen LaForge: We all need more money.
• 35:15
  Jen LaForge: Um, but but I think it's safe to say, and I think you've painted this really big picture, that this is a hyper complex machine that AI is touching every single way.
• 35:24
  Jen LaForge: And your team is at the forefront of every step this change is making can help retailers navigate it.
• 35:31
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, exactly.
• 35:31
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Even with the tools that we've built as an agency for specifically for AI visibility, that has been a huge effort and investment for us that we can show the value within affiliate, even a bit outside of affiliate and understanding where a publisher sits within that world and then how we can accompany strategies for it.
• 35:50
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I agree it's it's ever changing.
• 35:52
  Nikki Yorgiadi: And then even on the publisher side, I would just say there's a lot of adoption of how do we bring in AI, either how do we show that we're visible in AI or how are we utilizing AI to help better as a publisher too?
• 36:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: So I even see it from both sides, but specifically for advertisers, there's a lot of developments that, you know, we're really trying to stay right at the head of the train there, driving it forward.
• 36:15
  Jen LaForge: If you're not at the head, you're gonna be under it.
• 36:17
  Jen LaForge: So I'm glad you and I are running forward in front of this crazy train.
• 36:24
  Jen LaForge: Um, I think we'll be seeing each other again at Deal Maker yet.
• 36:28
  Jen LaForge: Another uh affiliate conference this year where no doubtably AI will be top of mind.
• 36:33
  Jen LaForge: Of course.
• 36:34
  Jen LaForge: Um but Nikki, thank you so much for coming and sharing the agency perspective, the missing piece in this puzzle we haven't talked about yet today.
• 36:41
  Jen LaForge: I think you did a beautiful job.
• 36:42
  Jen LaForge: And it is always a pleasure to see you.
• 36:45
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Oh, Jen, I am incredibly honored.
• 36:46
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I said it like numerous times, but thank you so much for having me.
• 36:49
  Nikki Yorgiadi: This was such a joy, and I think you know, we could have kept talking for probably hours more or so.
• 36:54
  Nikki Yorgiadi: That is another time.
• 36:56
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, that is uh a good reason uh to visit each other more often because we live down the street from each other.
• 37:01
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Exactly.
• 37:02
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Exactly.
• 37:03
  Jen LaForge: A drink and attribution talk.
• 37:04
  Nikki Yorgiadi: 100%.
• 37:05
  Nikki Yorgiadi: I love it.
• 37:06
  Nikki Yorgiadi: Thank you again so much.
• 37:07
  Nikki Yorgiadi: This is such a joy.
• 37:08
  Jen LaForge: And that's it.
• 37:09
  Jen LaForge: This episode of Stack.
• 37:10
  Jen LaForge: If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes.
• 37:18
  Jen LaForge: And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you.
• 37:21
  Jen LaForge: See you next time.