Latest / The Third Thing / S1E3: When Your Best Friend Hurt You: How To Find Your Way Back

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S1E3: When Your Best Friend Hurt You: How To Find Your Way Back · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to The Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:04
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and hoodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the receipts.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap.
• 0:48
  Michelle: So we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:53
  Danyelle: I'm gonna do it every time.
• 0:54
  Michelle: Every time.
• 0:54
  Danyelle: Every time.
• 0:56
  Danyelle: Welcome back.
• 0:57
  Danyelle: Welcome to episode number three.
• 1:00
  Michelle: Today we're gonna talk about conflict.
• 1:05
  Michelle: One of my favorite topics, actually.
• 1:06
  Danyelle: I mean, it really is.
• 1:08
  Danyelle: It's something that is often avoided, something that feels very big in the body, um, and something that all of us have to deal with every day.
• 1:19
  Danyelle: And before we dive in, how are you?
• 1:23
  Michelle: Just a quick, you know, we're here, we're friends.
• 1:26
  Danyelle: I am present.
• 1:27
  Danyelle: I am good.
• 1:28
  Danyelle: Um, I feel like I moved some energy in my body this morning, um, some emotional energy, which was great.
• 1:34
  Danyelle: I need it, I need it to have a good cry.
• 1:38
  Danyelle: That always feels good for me.
• 1:39
  Michelle: As we all do.
• 1:40
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:41
  Danyelle: What about you?
• 1:41
  Danyelle: How are you?
• 1:43
  Michelle: I'm feeling really grateful that we get to be in this together.
• 1:47
  Michelle: And I know that we already mentioned that we continue to be processing together, but I love that not only are we sharing the tools, we're actively using them as we learn to work together on this new adventure.
• 2:00
  Michelle: And I am just ready to dive in with you.
• 2:05
  Danyelle: Yeah, same.
• 2:06
  Michelle: I want to start by asking the question for both of us, which was how did you learn conflict growing up?
• 2:14
  Danyelle: I mean, not great.
• 2:17
  Danyelle: Not great.
• 2:18
  Danyelle: That was definitely not something that my parents, you know, um, we can say they did the best with what they had.
• 2:27
  Danyelle: We can say that.
• 2:28
  Danyelle: They had less with that part.
• 2:31
  Danyelle: So conflict in my house was explosive.
• 2:34
  Danyelle: It was fast, it was loud, it was, I mean, yeah, violent at times.
• 2:41
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 2:41
  Danyelle: It was really intense.
• 2:44
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 2:46
  Michelle: That feels familiar.
• 2:48
  Michelle: And what's interesting is I also was in a loud and sometimes emotionally toxic and violent household.
• 2:56
  Michelle: Not the entire time.
• 2:58
  Michelle: No, I will name.
• 2:59
  Michelle: Absolutely not.
• 3:00
  Michelle: Obviously, like waves, depending on what was going on personally and financially apart.
• 3:04
  Michelle: But definitely this feeling that in order to be heard, you needed to raise your voice.
• 3:09
  Michelle: You needed to yell the thing, but the thing was always said.
• 3:13
  Michelle: This idea of keeping something to yourself was not no, that wasn't happened.
• 3:19
  Danyelle: That also did not happen to in my household.
• 3:21
  Danyelle: It was very much say all of the things, no matter how good or bad, or necessary, maybe.
• 3:31
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 3:32
  Danyelle: Um, and there was almost an expectation that you did that there wasn't this, we keep things for later, or you know, you don't say the thing.
• 3:44
  Danyelle: You said the thing, it's processed in the moment, and then oftentimes it was like, hug it out.
• 3:50
  Danyelle: Hmm, I love you.
• 3:52
  Danyelle: That swinging of the pendulum very much.
• 3:55
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 3:56
  Michelle: I think also I'm curious what because sort of the next question is what did you then adopt from that environment?
• 4:05
  Michelle: And for me, as the eldest daughter, not only did I sort of adopt that very loud and physical way of approaching conflict, but I also felt like a protector.
• 4:21
  Michelle: Like at certain times I was standing up for myself, standing up for my sisters, standing up for my dad, standing up for my mom, that it was my job to bring things to light, to call them out.
• 4:35
  Michelle: And also in my mind, I was finding ways to keep peace throughout as well.
• 4:43
  Danyelle: Yeah, that's so interesting because such a different experience for me as the youngest, that's just my brother and I, and he was very much my protector.
• 4:56
  Danyelle: And I often felt so much safer when he was around.
• 5:04
  Danyelle: But never did I feel this almost like leadership role in my household, you know, and so like hearing you say, like there were these this this hat you wore that depending on who the person needing protecting was, that it was it fell on you.
• 5:23
  Michelle: Whereas for me, it was very much or I adopted it, whether or not anyone was suggesting it as a great idea.
• 5:32
  Danyelle: Probably not.
• 5:32
  Danyelle: I decided.
• 5:33
  Danyelle: You decided, yes, as we do, and with our tiny human brains, yeah.
• 5:39
  Danyelle: No, I I felt protected.
• 5:42
  Danyelle: I also was the feral second child, and so my brother was like undercover, cutty and shady, and I just wore it out loud and proud, loud and proud, absolutely.
• 5:57
  Danyelle: So, in terms of conflict, there was also like I didn't, you know, I I zero fucks, you know, again as my tiny human brain decided that I was allowed to do these things, and so when there was conflict, specifically around things that I had done or something I didn't do, it felt very fiery.
• 6:18
  Danyelle: It felt very, you know, there was this need to be really present.
• 6:23
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 6:24
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 6:25
  Michelle: I also, something that's coming up now too.
• 6:27
  Michelle: It's funny how no matter how many times we've discussed this topic, or I've visited it in in therapy or in coaching, that new things can still arise.
• 6:38
  Michelle: I'm thinking about how as you get older, you sort of when you fall and scratch your knee, if someone else falls and scratches their knee, you sort of assume that you're experiencing the same kind of pain and you're experiencing it in the same way.
• 6:53
  Michelle: And so it's interesting then as you go into your teenage years and you start really having more meaningful conflict.
• 6:59
  Michelle: I'm not talking about like that's my toy on the playground, but you start to get into more evolved relations that you begin to learn, oh, not everyone communicates in the same way.
• 7:12
  Michelle: I can't expect that everyone feels the same way.
• 7:15
  Michelle: And part of the conflict in my household, there was always someone who was right and always someone who was wrong.
• 7:22
  Michelle: And collecting as much evidence as possible that you were right was crucial.
• 7:30
  Michelle: A.
• 7:30
  Michelle: A number one.
• 7:32
  Michelle: And there was also this introduction of martyrdom, that to be giving of yourself and to have certain intentions was one of the things that mattered most, not so much how it landed with another person.
• 7:51
  Michelle: And so going out into the world armed with loud conflict, martyrdom, and the desire and frankly, need to be right at all costs, made for an interesting combination, I think, for those who became friends with me.
• 8:08
  Michelle: And now to you.
• 8:52
  Michelle: Well, maybe this doesn't exactly have a place here.
• 8:55
  Michelle: So take it or leave it.
• 8:57
  Michelle: Also, growing up in Marin, we both did experience a certain modicum of privilege where you were encouraged to say a thing and not necessarily keep it to yourself or speak until spoken to, that we're part of a generation that was sort of raised in some ways to have a voice, even just if not by our parents through the community.
• 9:19
  Danyelle: I think what you're speaking to isn't always something that I had access to for sure.
• 9:25
  Danyelle: And I absolutely will write a strongly worded email to the manager.
• 9:32
  Danyelle: Yeah, I will.
• 9:33
  Danyelle: So I get yes.
• 9:34
  Danyelle: Um yeah, I I do really feel like a lot of my conflict skills in our early friendship were being loud, yelling, like literally yelling or like intense sex, sarcasm.
• 9:54
  Danyelle: I mean, frankly never change.
• 9:56
  Danyelle: Frankly, rude.
• 9:59
  Danyelle: Let's let's really talk about it.
• 10:02
  Danyelle: And wow, yeah.
• 10:04
  Danyelle: And then I would go silent.
• 10:06
  Danyelle: I would not necessarily go in my bubble, like I never shell, but I would just or in not silent treatment.
• 10:13
  Danyelle: I would just be loudly, silently speaking.
• 10:17
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 10:19
  Michelle: Well, and I think that's a good segue into what we want to talk about today, which is an approach to how to manage conflict, because you have examples here where one person might be feeling hurt or upset and is retreating through a protective part and need to protect yourself, and/or this feeling like they're not gonna understand me, why would I say anything?
• 10:46
  Michelle: Or that past experience of conflict was so scary and never really resulted in anything that felt great in your body.
• 10:53
  Michelle: Why would I engage with that?
• 10:55
  Michelle: And then I know that in those moments when I was experiencing that silence or the retreat, this battering of hello, hello, it's me.
• 11:08
  Michelle: I've been such a good friend.
• 11:10
  Michelle: Why are you ignoring me and just not allowing either space for it to breathe or signaling that it is safe to approach and discuss?
• 11:20
  Michelle: So this is how a lot of the cycle of our early friendship went.
• 11:25
  Michelle: And sometimes they never reached resolution.
• 11:28
  Michelle: We just came back together again and moved forward.
• 11:32
  Michelle: And some of our recent moments where we've had disagreement or been on a different page, reaching for the tools that we now have has been so helpful.
• 11:47
  Michelle: So we look forward to sharing those today.
• 11:50
  Michelle: Let's get into it, shall we?
• 11:53
  Michelle: I want to introduce the concept of nonviolent communication.
• 11:57
  Michelle: Also compassionate communication.
• 12:00
  Michelle: Marshall Rosenberg was a clinical psychologist.
• 12:03
  Michelle: He wrote about nonviolent communication in the 70s.
• 12:07
  Michelle: He was a part of the early integration, racial integration in schools.
• 12:12
  Michelle: He talks about some of the root of conflict being that folks are expressing judgments and evaluations versus feelings and needs.
• 12:22
  Michelle: So he introduces this model that has four components to it, which we'll get into.
• 12:28
  Michelle: I learned about it through the Elementum Coaching Institute.
• 12:32
  Michelle: And it was a full-on aha moment.
• 12:36
  Michelle: Light bulb.
• 12:37
  Michelle: And I was well into my 30s, married with a child when I was being introduced to this concept.
• 12:45
  Michelle: And it was a new framework and lens by which to look at conflict and understanding why I had hit a wall so many times in the past.
• 12:55
  Michelle: And also this unlock about why conflict is so daunting and leaves people often feeling so defensive or unheard.
• 13:07
  Danyelle: And one of the things I think is really it speaks to the uh validity, efficacy of this um model is how excited you were.
• 13:22
  Danyelle: I remember just like getting the call, like, girl, D.
• 13:26
  unknown: Girl.
• 13:27
  Michelle: Did you know?
• 13:28
  Michelle: Did you know?
• 13:28
  Michelle: But can we talk about so many phone calls that I have had my mind blown and I've been like, hey, I learned this thing.
• 13:37
  Michelle: And you were like, Yes, bitch.
• 13:40
  Michelle: I've known this for years.
• 13:41
  Michelle: And I'm like, why are you not teaching me this stuff?
• 13:44
  Michelle: Hello.
• 13:44
  Michelle: I'm out here on my own.
• 13:46
  Michelle: Hello, help me.
• 13:48
  Danyelle: No, we get to do it together.
• 13:49
  Danyelle: We do.
• 13:49
  Danyelle: All in divine timing.
• 13:51
  Danyelle: It's because you waited to go to grad school.
• 13:57
  Danyelle: Uh absolutely.
• 13:58
  Danyelle: I mean, I do feel like it was this aha unlock for you in deepening your understanding of what it means to make an observation, what it means to actually speak from this place of feeling, and how we are absolutely not taught one, how to do conflict.
• 14:20
  Danyelle: And if we are taught in a way that it um that is more that I guess is healthier, it often doesn't get to the root of what's really happening.
• 14:29
  Danyelle: And so I do feel like you still walk away feeling unheard, feeling really defensive, and it becomes this agree to disagree.
• 14:40
  Michelle: I don't want to keep you hanging for much longer.
• 14:43
  Michelle: I do want to jump into the framework, but the last thing I want to say is as a highly empathetic person, which I know you are too, having this framework for conflict really lets me off the hook in a way that I didn't know that I needed because of some early childhood experiences and how I carried myself through a lot of my young adult life.
• 15:04
  Michelle: There's this sense of I need to read the room, I need to know if this person's safe or not.
• 15:10
  Michelle: I need to try and understand how they're feeling so that I can feel safe in my body and in my space.
• 15:15
  Michelle: But it's a lot of work to be constantly evaluating and guessing and/or thinking you just know.
• 15:23
  Michelle: And so to stop and check in with yourself and your own body before making assumptions and allow the other person to explain where they were coming from takes the load off and immediately removes the need for defensiveness.
• 15:41
  Michelle: So the four components of nonviolent communication, we start with observation.
• 15:47
  Michelle: This is a tricky one.
• 15:49
  Michelle: It seems like, of course, I observe that you are always an asshole, not helpful, easy, easily to make someone defensive.
• 15:57
  Michelle: Um, but maybe a better example is you always interrupt me when I'm talking.
• 16:04
  Michelle: What might be more helpful when you consider observation is I noticed that I've tried to tell you a story today several times and you have interrupted.
• 16:16
  Michelle: It takes away that always or never of it all.
• 16:20
  Michelle: And it introduces something that's a little more tangible, easy to access, because then we can talk about today or this week, as opposed to every single interaction we've ever had, which is not only overwhelming, but I will immediately think of the one time that was not true.
• 16:38
  Michelle: And then that's what we're now fighting about, instead of the fact that you were trying to tell me a story and couldn't spit it out.
• 16:45
  Danyelle: I think it neutralizes things, it brings it into the one-on-one moment, as you said, and it makes it smaller.
• 16:54
  Danyelle: One of the things that I really struggle with conflict is how big it feels in my body.
• 17:00
  Danyelle: And if I know this is today, it as you said, it it removes that pressure, it takes you off the hook.
• 17:09
  Danyelle: And the person receiving it can hear it for today.
• 17:14
  Danyelle: Anytime anybody comes with me with an always often every time, I'm gonna be like, Well, on Friday, June 24th at 4 45 p.m.
• 17:27
  Danyelle: I was on time.
• 17:29
  Michelle: Yes.
• 17:30
  Michelle: And again, to bring it back to me, growing up uh with this feeling that rightness is what matters, I am no longer listening to you or to the impact or how it landed because you've said something that was not right, and so I'm going to have to prove you wrong, and then we've missed the whole point.
• 17:53
  Michelle: Because it doesn't matter if it was one time or 99 out of 100, there's still an impact there that we can hear and evolve with together.
• 18:03
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 18:04
  Michelle: This framework allows you to say your observation without judgment because that sort of evaluation of always or never is then what becomes the linchpin.
• 18:20
  Michelle: So the second component of nonviolent communication, first is observation, the second is feelings.
• 18:28
  Michelle: Feelings is an interesting one because we say I feel a lot, but what often comes after it is not actually a feeling word.
• 18:37
  Michelle: So you have primary emotions, secondary emotions, and then you have things that are just simply not a feeling.
• 18:45
  Michelle: For instance, I feel attacked, I feel ignored, I feel manipulated.
• 18:51
  Michelle: If you can put an E D at the end of it, it's not a feeling word.
• 18:55
  Michelle: Correct.
• 18:57
  Danyelle: And but we're not again, I think it is important that we're introducing this framework to support growth here.
• 19:05
  Danyelle: Because yeah, if somebody's telling me I'm always something or I never do something, you are attacking me.
• 19:12
  Danyelle: That is what I feel.
• 19:15
  Michelle: And it's a judgment because if I'm saying you always do this, my intention might not be to attack you.
• 19:23
  Michelle: It's because I want to connect or I'm experiencing this big in my body.
• 19:28
  Michelle: But instead of putting it in a framework that allows you to receive it, I've put this judgment of always on it, which now puts you on the defense.
• 19:37
  Michelle: So going back to the feelings, if then ED can go after it, it becomes a non-feeling and something that someone can feel defensive about.
• 19:48
  Michelle: Well, I didn't mean to attack you.
• 19:49
  Michelle: I didn't mean to ignore you.
• 19:51
  Michelle: I'm not manipulating you.
• 19:53
  Michelle: And again, we're missing that opportunity for connection or for understanding, listening, how a thing landed for a person.
• 20:01
  Michelle: And so what we're being encouraged to do is to try and find the feeling underneath that.
• 20:08
  Michelle: So if I'm feeling ignored, that means that you're ignoring me.
• 20:13
  Michelle: But maybe I'm feeling lonely or anxious.
• 20:17
  Michelle: And what's underneath that as well?
• 20:19
  Michelle: Like sadness.
• 20:20
  Michelle: I'm sad about that.
• 20:22
  Michelle: And that's not if I say, Danielle, I'm feeling really lonely and I feel sad.
• 20:28
  Michelle: I'm betting you are going to offer me connection and love and listening versus, well, I didn't make you sad, you know, like it's it's more of an invitation to connect.
• 20:40
  Danyelle: Yes, I love that language of an invitation to connect.
• 20:43
  Danyelle: It really does allow for openness.
• 20:47
  Danyelle: It allows for the conversation to stay in flow versus these like hard lines, you know, putting putting down, you know, well, you know, I feel attacked.
• 20:59
  Danyelle: Well, I'm not attacking you.
• 21:00
  Danyelle: And again, then you're not even talking about what happened.
• 21:04
  Danyelle: You're talking about what is being said in the moment.
• 21:07
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 21:08
  Michelle: I think this is the superpower of nonviolent communication is in the digging down into the feeling because we're not as used to that language.
• 21:21
  Michelle: I feel abandoned.
• 21:23
  Michelle: The real feeling might be I feel scared.
• 21:26
  Michelle: I feel mistreated, might be I feel upset or hurt, I feel unimportant.
• 21:33
  Michelle: You know, really digging down into what's underneath that, what's the primary true emotional state versus a blame word.
• 21:42
  Michelle: I think is there's so much richness there, but it does take practice.
• 21:47
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 21:47
  Michelle: And what I will say before we go further is that this framework is not always for the heat of the moment.
• 21:56
  Michelle: Maybe rarely, unless you're very practiced, because I often find myself stopping when I'm feeling anxious, frustrated, mad, vengeful, whatever fiery emotion is coming up in my body.
• 22:12
  Michelle: And I do often pause and go, where is this coming from?
• 22:16
  Michelle: What am I actually feeling?
• 22:17
  Michelle: Where am I actually bothered by?
• 22:19
  Michelle: And it can, especially if I give it some time, it can help me put it into words that I can then share.
• 22:28
  Danyelle: I would say I want to, you know, double down on not in the heat of the moment.
• 22:36
  Danyelle: This is a really beautiful repair tool.
• 22:40
  Danyelle: This is a really beautiful way to come back and name what was coming up.
• 22:46
  Danyelle: When we are activated, when our nervous systems are dysregulated, it becomes incredibly challenging to find our tethers.
• 22:54
  Danyelle: And without those tethers, something to hold on to, something to grip, those pauses, right?
• 23:01
  Danyelle: We we go to those spots of protection.
• 23:04
  Danyelle: We go to the spots of I'm going to be the loudest person in the room.
• 23:08
  Danyelle: I have to be right.
• 23:11
  Danyelle: Coming back using this tool is really powerful to be able to name what was really going on.
• 23:18
  Michelle: It's also a nice opportunity to decide if you are ready to approach this conversation.
• 23:26
  Michelle: I have found that a lot of my dysregulated confrontation comes from not being able to sit with the emotion.
• 23:36
  Michelle: And so if I then yell or get in a fight or pass it off to you, I'm either getting it off my chest or my shoulders, or we're sharing in this discomfort.
• 23:48
  Michelle: Sometimes if I start going through what's the observation, what am I feeling?
• 23:52
  Michelle: What do I really need?
• 23:54
  Michelle: I realize that I don't have a need that I want to be fulfilled by you.
• 24:00
  Michelle: Sometimes it's something I can handle on my own.
• 24:02
  Michelle: And it is kind of a ninja skill.
• 24:04
  Michelle: And I have to say I'm 50-50 on whether or not I'm successful at that.
• 24:10
  Michelle: But it's it's an important tool to do your best to grasp when you can because being able to sit with your own discomfort, it's saved me from so much conflict and then having to deal with the aftermath of having lashed out because I was dysregulated.
• 24:29
  Danyelle: Yeah, that feels like a superpower to sit in it.
• 24:33
  Danyelle: And something that I talk to my clients about all of the time what if there isn't meaning making?
• 24:42
  Danyelle: What is it?
• 24:43
  Danyelle: What if there isn't a box we need to put this in?
• 24:46
  Danyelle: What does it feel like just to sit in the discomfort of whatever it is?
• 24:53
  Danyelle: You know, in this case, the conflict.
• 24:56
  Danyelle: And then is that conflict an internal thing or an external thing?
• 25:01
  Danyelle: Or both?
• 25:02
  Danyelle: Right.
• 25:04
  Michelle: The next component is to state your needs.
• 25:09
  Michelle: This has me thinking about Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
• 25:12
  Michelle: Sometimes the needs are really basic.
• 25:14
  Michelle: I need to eat.
• 25:16
  Michelle: And sometimes that will solve many problems to eat, to sleep, to know that I have somewhere safe to go, the basic human and universal needs, all the way up to I'm I need to be seen and known and heard and understood, which are a bit more nuanced, but needs are universal.
• 25:40
  Michelle: And this is again a this can take a bit of work to sort of translate I'm feeling hurt or I'm feeling sad or lonely into like, okay, so what do I need from that?
• 25:52
  Michelle: And if I'm feeling angry, perhaps I need respect or I need autonomy, I need some space for myself.
• 25:59
  Michelle: If I'm feeling sad, I'm really needing some connection, I need some time.
• 26:04
  Michelle: And this is such an unlock, too, because talk about movies and sort of the cultural zeitgeist of jealousy as being so acceptable, not only in romantic relationships, but in friendships as well.
• 26:18
  Michelle: But how powerful would it be if instead of saying you can't hang out with that person, or to really hold that jealousy in your body, if you could drill down and say, I need more time with you.
• 26:31
  Michelle: I would like you to bring me flowers or post a picture of me on your Instagram, you know?
• 26:38
  Michelle: And it it feels almost embarrassing because, well, they should just know, or they should just want to do it.
• 26:44
  Michelle: And I think that that's what we've been taught that it just needs to be spontaneous.
• 26:49
  Michelle: But to evolve to a place where you can ask for what you need means that you can then get what you need.
• 26:58
  Danyelle: That feels to me, you know, like that feels like such a head exploding emoji moment.
• 27:08
  Danyelle: And learning this was that because I was very much the human and still can be of like, you should know, read my mind, or it should be spontaneous, it shouldn't be planned.
• 27:22
  Danyelle: And that goes back to what we are taught, what we are, what we learn, what we see in media.
• 27:29
  Danyelle: And in reality, nobody is a mind reader, nobody can say and know fully without you opening your mouth.
• 27:38
  Danyelle: And I do think being able to learn uh to articulate your needs is I mean, that feels like new level unlocked.
• 27:48
  Danyelle: Um, and it and as you said, it does take practice.
• 27:52
  Danyelle: It's building the safety well, first articulating the need.
• 27:56
  Danyelle: I need space, I need connection, being able to say, like, I, you know, I need you to like be here.
• 28:06
  Danyelle: We get to say, we get to have capacity on the other side, you know, we get to say, this is my capacity around your need.
• 28:13
  Danyelle: But we first have to be able to name the need.
• 28:18
  Michelle: Exactly that.
• 28:20
  Michelle: I think the other thing to name here is that sometimes these components of nonviolent communication or compassionate communication are more effective when the other person also is armed with these tools so that it doesn't feel like manipulation or like I'm coming at you with therapy speak, and somebody's like, what is this format?
• 28:44
  Michelle: You know, I think that it's something to kind of like how I learned it.
• 28:49
  Michelle: I immediately went to you and my sister and was like, guys, look at this, look at this thing that I learned.
• 28:55
  Michelle: Um to share it, especially not in the heat of the moment, so that you can practice together and see how it feels in your body to move and flow in this new way.
• 29:08
  Michelle: It's not always perfect, especially again when you're not regulated, but the needs is a big one that you get to identify for yourself.
• 29:20
  Michelle: The last element that sort of dovetails off the need is the request.
• 29:25
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 29:25
  Danyelle: This one is my favorite because it really allows you to not only ask for what you need, but then ask it directly in a way where the person gets to then say, like yes or no, you know.
• 29:38
  Danyelle: And I kind of mentioned that a moment ago, but you get to say, you know, I need to spend more time with you.
• 29:47
  Danyelle: My request is a a weekly date night, a monthly date night.
• 29:51
  Danyelle: Then you get to decide how to co-create that.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:54
  Danyelle: And you're not leaving either of you, either of us, right?
• 29:59
  Danyelle: Trying to figure out, well, if you want connection, what kind and when?
• 30:03
  Danyelle: Or making it up in my head and saying, let's go watch a football game.
• 30:10
  Michelle: Right.
• 30:10
  Michelle: Which doesn't feel like connection to me.
• 30:12
  Michelle: Exactly.
• 30:13
  Michelle: Sorry about it.
• 30:15
  Danyelle: She's not sorry.
• 30:17
  Michelle: No, but even my wife and I experienced this in conflict last week, where she had asked for some time after having a bad day.
• 30:26
  Michelle: And so I was like, Great, I'll put the kid to bed, I'll make dinner, cleaned up, I'll go do some work in the living room.
• 30:32
  Michelle: And then I came and I was like, hey, let's chat.
• 30:35
  Michelle: And she was like, bitch, I asked you for time.
• 30:37
  Michelle: And I'm like, Well, I gave you many hours.
• 30:40
  Michelle: Like, what?
• 30:41
  Michelle: And so being specific about that request, and also acknowledging that just because you made a request doesn't mean that it can be 100% fulfilled.
• 30:51
  Michelle: Yes.
• 30:52
  Michelle: And this sort of comes back up to the observation versus judgment, because maybe what I need is more time, like you said, but I've made it mean in my head that you don't care about me anymore, that I don't matter to you, that I'm not a priority in your life when actually you might not be feeling well.
• 31:11
  Michelle: And by making the observation, I've noticed that you haven't been answering my calls or that we haven't spent time together recently.
• 31:18
  Michelle: I give you the opportunity to say, I've actually been really under the weather.
• 31:22
  Michelle: My health hasn't been great and I haven't been in a place to talk about it, or whatever the case may be.
• 31:28
  Michelle: My kid has been very overwhelming.
• 31:30
  Michelle: We've had a lot of activities.
• 31:31
  Michelle: I've done a lot of work travel.
• 31:33
  Michelle: And when I get home, I am done and I'm dead to the world.
• 31:37
  Michelle: But that is that invitation again for connection because now we know where each other is coming from.
• 31:43
  Michelle: Whereas if I was stuck in my judgment of like you don't care about me anymore, then it's such a closure.
• 31:50
  Michelle: It's such a stopping point instead of that door opening to understanding truly.
• 31:57
  Danyelle: And I feel like we've been at that door closing.
• 32:02
  Danyelle: I think in the the last few years, we have both individually and then collectively been able to really build this muscle.
• 32:12
  Danyelle: And prior to that, I think we were, you know, shutting those doors pretty often.
• 32:17
  Danyelle: And right when you don't have the language, that's what happens.
• 32:21
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about moments where I can shrink, where I really want to say a thing but feel nervous.
• 32:31
  Danyelle: I absolutely have felt jealousy at times, especially early on in our friendship.
• 32:38
  Danyelle: Um, Michelle's has a lot of friends.
• 32:40
  Danyelle: She that's just she's that human.
• 32:44
  Danyelle: And yeah, I absolutely felt jealousy around that.
• 32:47
  Danyelle: And nowhere in my vocabulary was there the language to say, I actually just want to spend more time with you.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 32:56
  Danyelle: Or you did this with this person, and I would really love to do that with you.
• 33:02
  Danyelle: I can say that now.
• 33:04
  Danyelle: And before it would be, you know, again, the avoidance, or she why why would she do it with that person and not me?
• 33:13
  Danyelle: And the stories that I create in my head, or the stories that my brain is telling me, become truth, become a division between us.
• 33:25
  Danyelle: And we've not even had a conversation.
• 33:28
  Michelle: Yeah, girl, I know that that is bringing up so much for people because the first thing that immediately came to mind was when Chelsea Davis in middle school did a talent show.
• 33:40
  Michelle: I had no idea she was doing it with her other girlfriends, and I was left out.
• 33:45
  Michelle: You couldn't tell me that she doesn't love me anymore.
• 33:49
  Michelle: She's embarrassed of me.
• 33:50
  Michelle: That's why I wasn't invited.
• 33:51
  Michelle: I mean, I was so sad, and I want to say we didn't talk for like a year.
• 33:56
  Michelle: But that exact framework of something happened without me, and this is now what it means, based on my own self-perception.
• 34:05
  Michelle: And two things are coming up for me.
• 34:07
  Michelle: And one is so much of what makes this successful is also how you hold yourself, understanding what might be coming up or being triggered by a past experience or an idea or a value that you hold about yourself.
• 34:24
  Michelle: I believe that I'm intelligent.
• 34:27
  Michelle: It's not an insecurity that I have.
• 34:29
  Michelle: Um, sometimes overly so.
• 34:31
  Michelle: I'm like, I can do anything.
• 34:34
  Michelle: She can.
• 34:34
  Michelle: So if someone walked by down the street and said you're an idiot, I'd be like, cool, you don't know me by now.
• 34:40
  Michelle: And it wouldn't, I wouldn't have a second thought about it.
• 34:43
  Michelle: But I do have some sensitivities about my body and the way that I present in the world.
• 34:47
  Michelle: And if someone told me I looked like a slob or like I was disgusting and fat or something, I would be like, Oh, I feel really awful now.
• 34:57
  Michelle: And I'm gonna really think about that and turn it over and and maybe even make it true.
• 35:02
  Michelle: So, all that is to say, as we introduce these frameworks, there's so many layers around taking care of yourself through this process that feels really important.
• 35:11
  Michelle: And the other thing that came up as you were talking, and this is what I love about being with you here in this podcast is yes, this episode is about nonviolent communication and conflict, but the introduction of ethical non-monogamy and reading the ethical sled and kind of getting introduced to that world through your own experiences and research and the culture around that is this idea of you can have two children, and there's not a finite amount of love that you have to give.
• 35:46
  Michelle: And so when you were saying Michelle's a person with many friends, for me, there's this expansiveness around the love that I have to give.
• 35:57
  Michelle: Not every single connection is the same, and some kind of come in and out in different ways, but it's almost learning that language that helps me to understand myself more.
• 36:10
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Danyelle: I mean, and what you're really speaking to how compassionate communication is allowing that expansiveness, being able to say some of these things and have these conversations around expansive friendship, romantic friendships, platonic beloveds, right?
• 36:29
  Danyelle: All of these, all of these things, what this podcast is really for, um, it does take a level of articulation.
• 36:38
  Danyelle: It takes a level of I can use the tools that are in my toolbox and bringing in the layers of non-monogamy, relationship, anarchy is is really important.
• 36:52
  Danyelle: You know, I do believe in big love, and I do believe that there is infinite love to give in the world.
• 36:59
  Danyelle: Love is not a pie.
• 37:01
  Danyelle: So we can all have as many pieces as we want.
• 37:04
  Danyelle: Um, and I had to learn that, you know, I'm constantly still learning that.
• 37:09
  Danyelle: But the language of how I layer that into friendship has been so helpful with utilizing this tool to be able to name when those things come up, whether it's jealousy, whether it's feeling the scale imbalance, whether it's feeling under-resourced.
• 37:29
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 37:29
  Danyelle: Um, and I think the piece that is also really important, we touched on it briefly, but how it impacts the body, how conflict sits in the body, and how that dysregulation can really take us into other places.
• 37:46
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 37:46
  Danyelle: Both of us are internal family systems informed.
• 37:51
  Danyelle: And this idea of parts that jump in the front seat, they jump in the driver's seat, and there we are driving down the road, not knowing how we arrived there.
• 38:02
  Danyelle: I use that analogy a lot with my clients.
• 38:04
  Danyelle: Who is driving?
• 38:06
  Danyelle: And when we think about our younger selves, when we think about going back to the beginning of this conversation, the ways that all of us have learned conflict, those parts do feel that moment of familiarity and immediately know what their role is.
• 38:24
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 38:24
  Danyelle: And all of a sudden, again, I'm yelling at you or I'm retreating or whatever it is for you individually.
• 38:34
  Danyelle: And I think what nonviolent communication really allows for is a different way.
• 38:42
  Michelle: I love that you brought that up because just how big conflict can feel in our body.
• 38:47
  Michelle: Because even the title, nonviolent communication, you're like, what do you mean violence and communication?
• 38:54
  Michelle: It really can if any I'm not even gonna say if any of you, we all have.
• 38:58
  Michelle: You've been in some sort of a fight, a conflict, an argument, you feel ill, you can feel really unwell, and your body is sort of bracing, like our body doesn't always know that there's not a bear outside the cave trying to get in.
• 39:13
  Michelle: And one of the concepts, again, that we learned was about the window of tolerance and that if I got three hours of sleep, haven't had my coffee, haven't eaten yet, I'm late to come and meet you, I'm showing up frazzled, the person who cuts me off is getting the middle finger and some choice words every time.
• 39:38
  Michelle: But that same exact situation can happen.
• 39:40
  Michelle: But I've slept eight hours and I woke up before my alarm and I've journaled and had my coffee and eaten a nourishing breakfast.
• 39:49
  Michelle: The person can cut me off and it's like, okay, I'm gonna be okay.
• 39:53
  Michelle: And so how you're showing up even in the same exact situation can really change.
• 39:58
  Michelle: And also, to your point, what gets triggered.
• 40:01
  Danyelle: And I think we can talk about it from the perspective of being under resourced, not enough sleep, not hydrated, not eating, but it's also the day-to-day, right?
• 40:12
  Danyelle: It is the swinging of the pendulum when we are our best selves and when we are not.
• 40:18
  Danyelle: But also, it's just a Tuesday.
• 40:21
  Danyelle: And the weight of what we experience as humans in this particular moment really takes us away from being present in anything.
• 40:34
  Danyelle: I think it's important to also just name those pieces that yes, we can feel under-resourced because we're sick or a variety of other things, but it also could just be a Tuesday.
• 40:47
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 40:48
  Michelle: I think that's really important to bring up.
• 40:51
  Michelle: We've talked about it in terms of the current political landscape, the post-pandemic landscape, the digital landscape that we're in, where there's this constant demand on us to meet the economic moment, to show up for our families in ways like we never have before, and friends.
• 41:10
  Michelle: Like the social media posting makes it so every move that you do or don't do is sort of visible.
• 41:16
  Michelle: And even if you're not someone who subscribes, you're still seeing it and receiving that.
• 41:21
  Michelle: And so, how do we take care of ourselves?
• 41:23
  Michelle: And I think this conversation of nonviolent communication doesn't happen in a vacuum.
• 41:30
  Michelle: Absolutely not.
• 41:31
  Michelle: Understanding where you sit in that and what you might be contributing or holding back from because of that is important because it allows you to show up with these conversations, hear another person, and also live in your truth, which is what your capacity is.
• 41:49
  Danyelle: I'm curious.
• 41:52
  Danyelle: Do you feel like there is a difference in the way that we approach this model?
• 42:01
  Danyelle: Because we both are professional spaceholders, we've had extensive years of therapy, like individually.
• 42:10
  Danyelle: Um, and we're in the work every day.
• 42:15
  Michelle: Well, that's a leading question, first of all.
• 42:17
  Michelle: I absolutely think that in many ways it's easier for us because we not only get to practice with each other, we get to guide clients through as well, which means revisiting the framework.
• 42:37
  Michelle: And it's the combination of the tools.
• 42:41
  Michelle: And I think you named it with the holding space, because I'll just speak for myself.
• 42:48
  Michelle: My instinct in conflict was either to prove that I was right or to try to repair very quickly, and now I have more spaciousness for listening and allowing the other person to have an emotion without needing to take it on.
• 43:05
  Michelle: It doesn't mean I don't have compassion and I don't need for that emotion to completely take over.
• 43:16
  Michelle: The flip side, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, is that having done years of therapy, having had a coaching practice, being a person who lives and breathes this work because I enjoy it so much, I often have a lot of shame if I don't get it right.
• 43:37
  Michelle: And it's like I'm in a fight with myself in those moments where I know the tools are just right there, but I almost don't want to grab for them.
• 43:45
  Michelle: And then I might feel shame when I go back to my default patterning.
• 43:51
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 43:52
  Danyelle: That is such an important thing to name because I have been.
• 44:00
  Danyelle: In therapy on and off since I was six.
• 44:03
  Danyelle: I did sand play, you know, like I was in it.
• 44:06
  Danyelle: And I experience that often when I get it quote wrong, or as you said, revert back to old programming.
• 44:18
  Danyelle: There's something about that part still is inside of me.
• 44:22
  Danyelle: And I actually don't want her to go away.
• 44:25
  Danyelle: I really want them to be present in reminding me of the work that I've done.
• 44:32
  Danyelle: And also sometimes I need a little, a little feisty moment.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it feels really good.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: It can feel really good.
• 44:40
  Danyelle: It can feel really good to just, you know, yeah, for a moment in hearing you say that, wanting to offer to you and our listeners, it's not about getting it right every time.
• 44:53
  Danyelle: And as somebody who sits across from humans supporting them in compassionate communication, I I tell my clients, like, I didn't get it right over the weekend, you know?
• 45:07
  Danyelle: And I I think that is a part of it.
• 45:10
  Danyelle: Progress over perfection always.
• 45:13
  Danyelle: So much of being in relation with other humans is about the evolution and progress, not about getting it right every time.
• 45:24
  Michelle: And we maybe have now overused that word.
• 45:29
  Michelle: These are the tools to the point where it's lost its meaning.
• 45:32
  Michelle: But if you think of a toolbox, you're picking up different ones in different situations.
• 45:38
  Michelle: And sometimes you are not picking it up.
• 45:40
  Michelle: And that's just the reality of being human.
• 45:43
  Michelle: And especially if you're in a space sharing conflict with someone who's not as in touch with this language, it may be very hard to not only access it for yourself, but to really move through these components in a thoughtful or meaningful way.
• 46:04
  Michelle: I do just want to take a moment to recap what we went over because we've talked about a lot and remind you that this doesn't have to be perfect.
• 46:15
  Michelle: It doesn't have to go in order.
• 46:17
  Michelle: If the only thing you're able to do is make an observation, that's without judgment, and then create space for the other person to respond.
• 46:26
  Michelle: If the only thing you can do is name a feeling, that's a step.
• 46:30
  Michelle: That's progress.
• 46:32
  Michelle: Um making your observation, identifying the primary feeling underneath, stating a need that you have, and making a request that someone can respond to.
• 46:48
  Michelle: Let's do it.
• 46:50
  Michelle: The one that came to mind for me was deep pandemic 2020.
• 46:58
  Michelle: I had given birth to my daughter Billy in August.
• 47:03
  Michelle: And like many other women experienced some postpartum depression.
• 47:09
  Michelle: The childbirthing experience was traumatic.
• 47:15
  Michelle: We'll just put that out there.
• 47:16
  Michelle: As I think a lot of childbirths are, it's very physical.
• 47:20
  Michelle: It did not go the way that I thought that it would or wanted it to.
• 47:23
  Michelle: And then we had the layers of pandemic and also some loneliness because we couldn't be together in community the way that generations of childbirthing humans have before.
• 47:37
  Michelle: And so that's the more serious part of it.
• 47:41
  Michelle: And I was struggling to breastfeed as well.
• 47:43
  Michelle: So there was a host of issues, but as we do, we make light of it, we're joking around.
• 47:50
  Michelle: It's it's it's a lot.
• 47:54
  Michelle: And one of the things that had happened is there were a few times when you had mentioned, like, y'all are not making this look good, and I am never gonna have children.
• 48:04
  Michelle: Which a, this is the sassiness of your personality that I truly adore and never want to change.
• 48:12
  Michelle: But in that moment, I was feeling very tender, and there's a lot of shame around the child breathing and mothering experience.
• 48:21
  Michelle: Why do I have these large breasts and can I not breastfeed?
• 48:25
  Michelle: And why was I not able to give birth vaginally?
• 48:29
  Michelle: And all of the questions you ask yourself, am I doing this right as a mother?
• 48:33
  Michelle: And so it had been said a couple times, and I checked in with myself.
• 48:41
  Michelle: And I think maybe the first time it bothered me, I ignored it because you know it's fine.
• 48:47
  Michelle: And the second or third time I realized, actually, this is my best friend, and I want her to know how I feel.
• 48:55
  Michelle: And so we had a chat, and I said, I've noticed that you have said this thing a couple times.
• 49:02
  Michelle: I am feeling some shame and some sadness.
• 49:07
  Michelle: I need for your support.
• 49:10
  Michelle: And can I ask that you don't say that again?
• 49:13
  Michelle: And what even in recounting that, I'm glad and grateful for like there's no blame in it.
• 49:21
  Michelle: I never think you're out to hurt me in a million years.
• 49:25
  Michelle: If anything, whether you were serious or not, you saying that could just as well be because you care about me and don't want to see me hurting or struggling.
• 49:34
  Michelle: And it seems really hard.
• 49:35
  Michelle: There could be validation in that.
• 49:37
  Michelle: My sensitivity was in feeling not good enough or like I wasn't doing things right.
• 49:43
  Michelle: And so I was hearing that comment as judgment.
• 49:49
  Michelle: But what I love about it is you received that kindly and openly, and we never talked about it again.
• 49:59
  Danyelle: The end.
• 50:00
  Danyelle: The end, the end, and again, right?
• 50:04
  Danyelle: So thinking about this from my perspective, having people in my life go through what I would say to be traumatic birthing experiences was really impactful.
• 50:18
  Danyelle: And we were far away, we couldn't see, we couldn't talk, bad reception.
• 50:22
  Danyelle: Like they're just all all the fires.
• 50:26
  Michelle: Oh my goodness, the fire couldn't go outside the house.
• 50:30
  Michelle: Big tea trauma.
• 50:32
  Danyelle: Yeah, big tea trauma.
• 50:33
  Danyelle: Yeah, for me, it was a mirror.
• 50:37
  Danyelle: I wanted Michelle to know that what she had just experienced was traumatizing, was big, was scary.
• 50:47
  Danyelle: And so scary that I would prefer not to do it.
• 50:52
  Michelle: When you brought this to me, I very much was like, oh, that is like it's not how I yeah.
• 51:00
  Danyelle: And being able to share that when I hear you say the first time you feel it in your body, and then you ignore it, right?
• 51:09
  Danyelle: So so common.
• 51:10
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 51:11
  Danyelle: And then I did say it a few times because it was it was a lot.
• 51:16
  Danyelle: It was a lot to hold.
• 51:18
  Danyelle: And realizing, oh my goodness, I'm now contributing to this discomfort, this trauma, this, this challenge.
• 51:28
  Danyelle: I very much was able to hold that and receive that, take accountability for the impact, understand and share the intent, but that's not important.
• 51:42
  Michelle: Right.
• 51:43
  Danyelle: And being able to say heard absolutely, yeah.
• 51:49
  Michelle: And I love that naming it made it smaller instead of because shame can feel so big, especially when you're holding it inside.
• 52:01
  Michelle: And then that can turn into anger and resentment that's being fueled, which can then lead to disconnect.
• 52:08
  Michelle: Like, well, I'm gonna then not want to talk to you as much or not be around you as much.
• 52:13
  Michelle: But one of the things that we'll continue to talk about too is the relationships that are worth investing in.
• 52:21
  Michelle: And this is our third love, our third thing.
• 52:25
  Michelle: And so it's saying, I could just ignore this and we could never talk about it, or I might hope that you just never bring it up again, or I can acknowledge that I'm in a sensitive period, and whether or not it's ridiculous, I'm gonna make this ask.
• 52:38
  Michelle: And you were able to meet me there.
• 52:40
  Michelle: And so it then became something that brings us together.
• 52:47
  Danyelle: Brings us closer and being able to hear that, hold that, and then offer support in a completely different way.
• 52:56
  Michelle: Because ultimately it has very little to do with the thing that you said, and more to do with I'm having a hard time right now.
• 53:05
  Michelle: And then we can actually talk about that through the doorway.
• 53:10
  Danyelle: Oh, I love this conversation.
• 53:12
  Danyelle: Me too.
• 53:14
  Danyelle: We want to invite you to play with this, to deepen your understanding around it.
• 53:21
  Danyelle: Nonviolent communication is a tool that can really serve as a springboard for repair, for containing conflict, and giving it space, the space it needs, without it bubbling over.
• 53:43
  Danyelle: If you're looking for more resources on this or workbook, perhaps, you can find one over on our Instagram page at the Third Thing Pod.
• 53:54
  Danyelle: We thought it would be really helpful to give you a tangible tool.
• 53:58
  Danyelle: We've talked about this more in the meta.
• 54:01
  Danyelle: And one of the things that is helpful for me as somebody who facilitates these conversations often is having a guide.
• 54:10
  Danyelle: I tell my clients put the feelings sheet up, put the script up so you can see it, so you can use it.
• 54:20
  Danyelle: When you're practicing this, I talk about it as a new language.
• 54:24
  Michelle: Yes.
• 54:24
  Danyelle: So just as you would sit down and do a Duolingo tutorial, this workbook is really going to support you in deepening and developing your tools around nonviolent communication.
• 54:39
  Michelle: I'm a big believer in using a pen and paper.
• 54:44
  Michelle: Yes.
• 54:45
  Michelle: Print it out or write the framework out and revisit even an old conflict or something that might be brewing and see how it feels to start to dig in.
• 54:55
  Danyelle: Send it to you to a friend.
• 54:57
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 54:57
  Danyelle: Have them download it too.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 55:00
  Danyelle: And do it together.
• 55:01
  Danyelle: Work through it together and see how introducing this can strengthen your platonic love.
• 55:10
  Michelle: Is it time to pull a card?
• 55:12
  Danyelle: It is.
• 55:13
  Danyelle: Oh my goodness.
• 55:14
  Danyelle: I love this.
• 55:15
  Danyelle: This is too good.
• 55:17
  Danyelle: So we pulled the five of wands.
• 55:20
  Danyelle: It came out in reverse.
• 55:21
  Danyelle: I'm gonna read it both ways because I love this in the sense of this is about conflict.
• 55:28
  Danyelle: It's about fighting, it's about um being in a lose-lose.
• 55:33
  Danyelle: You can see the figures are all kind of waving their wands, but nobody's actually being hit.
• 55:40
  Danyelle: And so I think about the five of wands as being in it because you don't know any other way to be, being in it for the like drama of it.
• 55:53
  Danyelle: And for me, in reverse, this is taking yourself out of it.
• 55:58
  Danyelle: So I love that the five of wands came to us um on which she's a witch.
• 56:09
  Danyelle: Came to us.
• 56:10
  Danyelle: It's an invitation, it's a reminder.
• 56:12
  Danyelle: Don't be in it just to be in it, don't hold things just to hold things.
• 56:17
  Danyelle: Um, wands is fire, so it's an action card.
• 56:21
  Danyelle: And to me, the invitation of this Five of Wands in reverse is use the tool.
• 56:27
  Danyelle: Take the time to practice, learn it, um, and allow yourself to grow within your friendships.
• 56:36
  Danyelle: See you next week.
• 56:38
  Danyelle: Bye.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 56:44
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 56:52
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: The link is in the show notes.
• 57:05
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• 57:10
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.