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Anger is Just Another Feeling · Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery

• 0:07
  Speaker A: Welcome to emotional sobriety, the next step in recovery with Dr. Alan Berger and Tom Rutledge. Let's start with Tom's nutshell for the day. It's one of emotional sobriety's greatest challenges is for us to understand and accept our contribution to our own distress without becoming distracted by self condemnation. I like this one a lot.
• 0:29
  Speaker B: We need to be telling people, take responsibility, but we're telling a bunch of people to take responsibility who have this tendency to beat the holy shit out of themselves, you know, and it's like we really need, we got to make that distinction.
• 0:41
  Speaker A: Own your part without collapsing into shame
• 0:45
  Speaker B: for, well, I mean, distinction between, between shame and responsibility, you know, and it's, you know, shame is a self. You know, this is what I learned about depression too, whether I like it or not. And depression is real, but it's a very self absorbing condition for me. I think too long I thought of myself as, as, you know, excessively humble because I was full of shame. You know, it's like, no, that's where, that's where I came up with negative arrogance. It's like, no, it's, it's still just as arrogant. It's just not fun.
• 1:16
  Speaker A: You know, the way that meets, the way you're a nutshell meets me this morning is yes, we're the architects of our own problems and our misery most of the time. Right. But like most of us are so we don't get lost in that. It's just like, you know, you can admit it, admit it, but not in a way that's. That makes you special.
• 1:37
  Speaker B: I've been doing this for years with our eating disorder group. From a long time ago, we would use the phrase, you're not that special, you know, you're not, you're not the one. You're not, you know, but in this
• 1:47
  Speaker A: case, it's a good thing.
• 1:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. You can't believe in every. Everybody else in the group and then think you're the one who's a piece of shit. It's not what happens, it's how we perceive it. Almost everything you're talking about, Alan, when you talk about this stuff is that goes to that point.
• 2:02
  Speaker C: I was just thinking that, Tom. I was thinking that it's an interesting. It's like the, the negative arrogance that you're talking about. I was thinking about it on, in terms of control is we're control freaks, but yet we want to also be victims. Right? How does that work?
• 2:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's really, that's beautiful. Because the truth is, if you look a Little bit deeper. Just a couple of lines down lower. It's like that's, that is, you're right.
• 2:28
  Speaker C: It's like, it's a weird thing, isn't it? But I'll be, It's all me.
• 2:32
  Speaker B: I win, you know.
• 2:36
  Speaker C: No, no, no. It's like that negative arrogance. It's that weird paradox, isn't it? It's so interesting. But you're right. I mean as, as you know, I, I got ready for that self, that acceptance workshop, I did. And one of the first levels of self acceptance that Dr. Brandon talks about is, he says it's about being on our own side or having an utter refusal to be in an adversarial relationship with ourselves. It's just what you're talking about is
• 3:09
  Speaker B: that, well, that's facing off and basically not even fighting this, but excusing this, say no, you're not a part of this, this conversation, you know.
• 3:23
  Speaker C: So your Sigmond went to Hollywood. He's got some sunglasses.
• 3:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, I had, I had a client who brought him some shades.
• 3:30
  Speaker C: I love it.
• 3:30
  Speaker A: He's like a hipster now.
• 3:31
  Speaker C: You know, I, I, I always think about what is our resistance to taking responsibility for our lives in this way that, that I own, that I create my existence, you know, because I, I guess one of the things that happens, there's no place to hide anymore. There's no one to blame it on. It's all about now. It's about what am I doing, you know, on a moment to moment right here, right now basis in terms of creating the life I want. And I feel, see so few people taking that kind of responsibility.
• 4:06
  Speaker B: You know, when you start to suggest things they look at and they are actually things about how they perceive it, people get nervous.
• 4:14
  Speaker A: Would they get nervous about looking at their part?
• 4:16
  Speaker B: About being responsible? I think, I don't, I don't know if you're consciously aware of it at the time. Often I think they thought I was just missing the point. Whenever I would, they would tell me what happened, what somebody did to them. And I'm talking about them. I don't care what somebody did to you. I mean I care, but I, it's not what, we're not going to do anything with that. Well, see, that's a straight out serenity prayer.
• 4:37
  Speaker C: Well, that's what people mistake with what we're saying. We're not saying that people aren't victims because there are real victims.
• 4:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's, yeah, there's, there's victimization and then there's Vic. There's Victim, Victim mindedness.
• 4:50
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 4:51
  Speaker C: And see, what we're talking about is the latter. You know, we know that people have, you know, you're, you're not responsible if you were abused as a child, that's something that happened to you. But what we're talking about is what do you do with that experience? Can you deal with that experience in a way where you no longer become victims victimized by it? See, that's the point that we're making is that, and we know you can see that's the, that is the good news, isn't it? Is that we have seen people rise above those things.
• 5:22
  Speaker B: Bob Sevyn in Lost in the Shuffle says children were victims as adults were volunteers.
• 5:27
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what?
• 5:28
  Speaker B: Because we're not going to hold it. We're not going to hold. And people, when they do inner child work, some of you notice this. When they do inner child work, that's one of the mistakes they'll make. They'll start blaming their kid.
• 5:39
  Speaker A: Towards the end of my using, a lot of my stories, I need to bring more stories from my recovery. But towards the end of my using, I was in a contentious conversation with my dad on the phone and I said to him some version of, I'm only doing this to me, you know, like I'm, you know, my shitty, you know, self destructive life is. It's just, you know, I don't burn other people. I'm just burning myself. And he called me on and he was like, no, you burn people all the time. You know, you're letting me and your mom down. You're letting, and I, I just remember hearing that. I just got so pissed off. I think I even like had a separate phone call with my mom where I complained, you know, about how mean, you know, my dad was being, calling me out on it. And, but I think what it was is that, is that I, you know, like all the things that make us the most upset, you know, it's like when they, when it's a very correct statement, you know, it gets under our skin.
• 6:37
  Speaker B: It stings.
• 6:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, but then I think what it is is that like if that were true, then I would have to confront what that actually meant, you know, which is that, you know, I, I'm very out of alignment with my own values because like, I don't believe as a principle in hurting other people or, you know, and I, I, I didn't see myself as somebody who moved through life in like, that's harmful or in an abusive manner towards those about Me, the, the story that, that I was much more comfortable telling myself was that I was this like self contained organism. You know, part of what your, your
• 7:18
  Speaker B: father is, is telling you is. And this is really hard for people who've lived their life with, with, with that should monster and with the shame is that you matter. You know, that just the fact that even if you're only doing things to yourself because there are those of us who love you, that's not. That hurts us, you know?
• 7:40
  Speaker A: Right. And the part two comes to you.
• 7:42
  Speaker B: It just means I feel pain when you're not taking care of yourself.
• 7:47
  Speaker A: Right on. Yeah. And the part two, I guess I'd say is that like that, that became empowering, that recognition that I was actually hurting those around me because I didn't want to. And so I didn't want to. I don't want to hurt other people. And I really love. I mean, I think what brought me to recovery initially is, you know, breaking my mom's heart. And you know, that there were still people that I loved that I didn't want to let down. That I was letting down.
• 8:14
  Speaker B: Well, you're much more motivated by that than you are about hurting yourself.
• 8:20
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 8:20
  Speaker B: When we feel like we do in our, in our addiction, it's like, what the. Do I matter? So, so who cares? But. But if, but if all of a sudden I think I'm doing something to Alan, I'm not doing something to him. But, but if my, if my behavior is having some kind of painful consequence for him, I can get my head around wanting to change that because I don't like hurting people.
• 8:40
  Speaker C: There is a failure of self compassion with addiction. There's got to be. We would not treat ourselves this way if we really matter. I mean, it's like you said. I mean, I. I see people. You're right. We would mobilize ourselves and do something for somebody else. We wouldn't. We would show up for them, we would try to help them. But when it comes to us, we really. We really are loose in terms of what we will do to ourselves. I was just. I had a. I had a real revelation. I was doing this creative writing class and it was a trauma and creative writing class and the guy was really good that was doing it. And one of the things, he had us write about different things, but he said one of the things that was really cool. He said, I want you to write a letter to your bodies and talk to your body about how you've treated it and what kind of relationship you've had with It. I never thought of that. You know, I thought of making amends to myself for my addiction. Right. And I've done it. But I never thought of making amends to my body for my addiction.
• 9:51
  Speaker B: I hadn't thought of. It makes me remember is people with eating disorder recovery programs like that, they do that a lot. And it's like. And that's a challenge, you know, because. Because, I mean, talk about a blatant way. We, you know, it doesn't have to have eating disorders anyway. It's like how we disregard that part of ourselves completely.
• 10:12
  Speaker C: I mean, when I wrote this thing, I said, man, I abused you. I. I put, you know, alcohol, drugs
• 10:18
  Speaker B: into you, poured poison into you. Yeah.
• 10:22
  Speaker C: Yes. I mean, and I. And then. And I said, you still keep showing up for me. It's like, you know, you haven't betrayed me yet. And yet I've betrayed you so many times. It was such a revelation. And it just keeps echoing this whole thing about.
• 10:39
  Speaker B: Because it became also a gratitude letter, didn't it? It's like you're going like. I love that part. Going like, you know, it's almost like I don't deserve that. But you keep showing up for me, you know, I've done nothing to deserve it, but you do, and I need to be grateful for that.
• 10:55
  Speaker C: And that's love. I mean, when you think about that, that's an unconditional love right there. You talk about unconditional. Yeah, that's what. That's what it is. That's. Our bodies give us unconditional love. It keeps moving towards wholeness, regardless of what we do to it. It's like, my God, what a gift.
• 11:15
  Speaker B: I've heard you say that a lot. The moving toward wholeness, you know, as our part of our nature, might be
• 11:21
  Speaker C: the manifestation of God. When people say God loves you, what does that mean? I mean, it's an idea. You can look at it out here. But if I focus in here and think about what my body does for me, it's pretty amazing, regardless of what I've done to it.
• 11:37
  Speaker B: Well, if we. To the point that we align the concept of God with nature is, you know, it works. Yeah.
• 11:45
  Speaker C: Which a lot of, you know, we call them, you know, primitive societies. I don't know if they're that primitive, really. Right. You know, it's such a terrible label.
• 11:54
  Speaker B: Wiser people of the world, the ones that are starting wars and shooting people and.
• 12:01
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, those primitives, the First Nation people here in the United States. I love how the Canadians refer to them up in Canada call them first nation people.
• 12:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. I got to start using that.
• 12:11
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's a great way to do. But, you know, let's say I killed a deer for food. They would thank God. Thank. Appreciate that deer. Thank you for letting me take your life. See there. There was a. An. A relationship in harmony. The other life of that person. It was an amazing thing in terms of that, because God was here, down here. God wasn't up there. God was right here in nature with us. It's an interesting thing. And through the years, we separated ourselves from that a lot. Right. I've heard a lot of people like Jed Diamond. Do you ever get exposed to Jed Diamond's work, Tom?
• 12:50
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 12:50
  Speaker B: Well, God, I hadn't thought about him in a long time.
• 12:52
  Speaker C: Yeah, neither have I. Remember, he used to talk about that because he used to in his treatment program. I don't think it's working. I don't think it's still operating. But he used to bring men there and they would work in the soil. And he said by bringing men down to the soil, they got in touch with this nature and spirituality is that he brought them right back to nature. It was. It was a very interesting thing. And I went to one of his trainings, and he was interesting about how he talked about us getting so separated from God and from nature. And he says he thought that that was the basis of all of our. Our problems and our addiction and stuff. And I. I see what he's talking about, but if we think about just.
• 13:35
  Speaker B: That's. I mean, that's a broad. That's a broad thing. And we see it in all kinds of ways. But sep. You know, sep. Separation, you know, because we. Separation, which leads to isolation.
• 13:46
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 13:47
  Speaker B: Like, because. Because, you know, we used. We use separation in a different way in terms of thinking about differentiation. So we have more of a clear idea of who I. Who the authentic me is. It doesn't matter who you are. Nobody. Nobody can do this alone.
• 14:01
  Speaker A: I thought we would talk with the time we have left about anger and emotional sobriety. What do you think in talking about emotional sobriety and anger? It comes back to the way you always say, Alan, that emotional sobriety is about an appropriate alignment with reality. And so it's not a suppression of angry feelings, but it's more about modulating the feelings so that they are a good fit for the situation. And you know, what came to mind? I just had to think about the most recent example of me being angry and trying to practice some emotional sobriety was Last night, it was my girlfriend's birthday and she was just in a bad mood. And so she was just, you know, poking me the whole night. And I found myself just kind of returning to this first principle of I'm taking her out for a birthday. I'm. I'm bringing her gift for her birthday. I love my girlfriend and I want her to feel special on her birthday. So you got to like roll with the punches. And if she's in a bad mood, you know, I just, I was keeping a gentle guardrails on the situation, you know, like for my dignity and self respect there.
• 15:19
  Speaker B: And hold yourself responsible or, or hold her responsible to be responsible to you. Her response was up to her, right?
• 15:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. And we had a nice night on the whole. We had a nice night, but it was tough because I was getting the little angry man inside me was jumping up for the several hours. Cause I came over when I got off of work. But I love her. I want to show her a good time.
• 15:47
  Speaker B: Here's the thing I think is really cool about being us is I've known people and you guys have known people who do this kind of work. And the way I say it in workshops, I say, you know, these are the people that begin their presentation by saying, long ago, when I was screwed up like you people, you know, for us, we don't ever have to go back more than 24 hours to come up with an example of how we fuck something up. We don't even have to have a good memory.
• 16:17
  Speaker A: What is soothed by emotional sobriety right up front is like you could just. That space between the stimulus and the response widens.
• 16:26
  Speaker C: I think that contribution is. I always appreciated that because it does that. Your nutshells. What they did for me when I got first exposed to your work was they do create such almost a meditative experience because I it in and then it blossoms, right? It kind of moves it. It. It's. It's like adding water to concentrated orange juice. You know what I mean? It's.
• 16:54
  Speaker B: I love it.
• 16:54
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 16:54
  Speaker A: That's a good image. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:56
  Speaker C: Concentrated piece of wisdom. And then you put water on it and it turns into this wonderful pitcher of orange juice. That's delicious. But you know, if you, if you eat the concentrated orange juice, it's too much. It's like, I can't do that. But as you add water to it, and not that I feel that about any of your nutshells, because I never have that reaction, but they blossom. I wanted to go back to the anger thing that you raised because.
• 17:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, let's do that.
• 17:23
  Speaker C: You know, one of the things that Thomas talked about a lot and that I also feel. And it's unfortunate because anger has been so associated with violence and with abuse,
• 17:38
  Speaker B: and so it's been maligned. It really has. It's just another feeling if a person
• 17:43
  Speaker C: could hold the space for it. And it's a big ask. I'm not saying this is an easy thing to do, because sometimes anger scares me too, because of there's that always that line between losing control. Right. It's interesting. I just thought of Roger for a second, is that he, you know, he went and did this Neo Reichian training with this guy, Charles Kelly. And what Charles Kelly's contribution to bodywork was about vision. He focused on how we use our eyes in terms of making contact. And he says. He says anger is dangerous. When you stop seeing the person, you only see red. It's an interesting. Isn't that interesting?
• 18:25
  Speaker B: Because I love the idea that our. That our. We. We take for granted these little expressions, but they tell us so much if we listen to people's language.
• 18:34
  Speaker C: Right, you do. Right. That it's so informative. I saw red. Well, that means you're not seeing.
• 18:39
  Speaker B: That's unfortunate because you. You needed this person or this situation. Yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker C: So if you can stay in touch with that person, it's very unlikely that you'll lose control. And to get to a point where you scare them to death. Because if I see somebody I love and they're scared, my natural inclination is to want to protect. Right. Somebody I care about, and it's going to slow me down and stop me. You know, many times I say, in a situation like that, and I've said it like, I'll never forget Roger and I, and. And this sober companion was working with his. I'm blocking his name right now. A great guy. I loved him. We were working with this guy that was unbelievably violent. He would take people and hold them hostage and tie them up for hours and then let them go just to have power over them. And because he felt so powerless in his life. And so he was just acting this out. And so the court gave me. They turned him over to my care. I knew the family and I went to court when they were going to. So instead of putting him in jail longer than he was already in jail, they released him to my supervision. So we're watching this guy very closely right the first day he's out, he's with his sober companion. He's right next to him. And There's a pencil on the floor. And he says to his sober companion, you know, I'm doing everything in the world not to pick up that pencil and stick it in your neck. Poor companion goes, oh, side. Better get out of here. Freaked out, man. Of course, right? I mean, this is a big strong guy, man. I mean, it's like kind of I can just imagine a pencil in my neck, right?
• 20:23
  Speaker B: Kind of.
• 20:24
  Speaker C: So we were working with this guy for a while and I'll never forget what turned around the session with him. Tom is. We sat down with him and said, we're afraid of you. If you want to keep working with us, we need you to protect us and to help us here.
• 20:40
  Speaker B: Beautiful. Beautiful.
• 20:43
  Speaker A: It was.
• 20:44
  Speaker B: Switch it.
• 20:47
  Speaker C: We gave him all the power.
• 20:49
  Speaker B: Well, you gave him a responsibility.
• 20:51
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 20:52
  Speaker B: You gave him something important to do. It's like, you know, and again, low self esteem. And he. I don't know him. But generally in low self esteem, it would not occur to somebody that you, that he's important to you, that you. He matters in some way. And here you're, you're at your. And it's not that they're scared that makes him important, it's that you ask for his help. That's right.
• 21:15
  Speaker C: And he did. He did, man. From that point on, he. Are you okay? Did I scare you with that? I mean, it was amazing how it changed his awareness of our relationship. But you know, I was just thinking about that. See if, if, if we. And this is, that's why I say it's a big ask to look underneath what that anger is about and try to understand. Like for this guy, he was. Felt so powerless in his life. And so all of this was just a way to feel important and to matter in some way and not in a good way. I mean, obviously it was quite destructive and. But you know, it's. If we could do that with each other, a lot of people would get to what's really going on. And Walter used to say this all the time. If you yell, if you yell and find the right words that tie to your pain and you keep yelling about it, eventually you'll go on the other side of anger, which is pain, and you'll start to cry. He says, invariably I've seen that if I encourage people to keep yelling about what's bothering them and how they hate this or hate that, at the end of it, they break down in tears.
• 22:25
  Speaker B: Well, Alan, think about all the times that we've both been through it, but also facilitated deeper experiential work. It's like, that's exactly what happens. So how many times have you been sitting there and somebody's expressing because. Rage, anger. And the reason they do that so often in treatment is because as a culture and as individuals, we've resisted it. So we're, we're, you know, we're emotionally constipated with it. And it's like. So it's when we finally give it pressure to come out, but once it starts coming out, you get through some of that and then all of a sudden somebody screaming and hollering, yelling, and then they start just fucking laughing, you know, and just. And everybody in the room is just belly laughing about that. And then he begins to cry. You know, you really just are watching this stuff line up. It's like you're, you're clearing the pipe, you know, and it's like there's so much in there and nothing can get past that anger. And when you, when you get. When we give them permission or we give ourselves permission to do that, we can, then we can find out what's underneath there, because it's. It's going to come up.
• 23:28
  Speaker C: I got in touch with, like, when one of, let's say, my partner gets upset with something I'm doing and I. They're disappointed in me. And I try to talk them out of their disappointment. I realize I doing that because I get so scared. If they're disappointed in me, they're not going to love me. And so what I try to do is erase their disappointment instead of just empathizing with them. Is as though it is. And now I've caught that. And I say, you know, if I'm starting to react that way, I say, God, give me a second. Because I. I'm so threatened by the fact that I've disappointed you. Let me get a hold of myself so I can empathize with you in a minute here. Because I'm having trouble right now. I just want to protect myself.
• 24:14
  Speaker B: Well, see, I don't think. I don't think we're the lone rangers with that. You take that, you go underneath and you go down that ladder and, and you. Like just a couple of rungs down there is. I'm. My experience has always been I'm afraid this person's going to leave me. You know, whether. Whether there's anything in the content at all that means that it just, it just. I used to drive home from work not having any content and wondering if this is the day that he's going to greet me at the door and say, she's she's leaving.
• 24:42
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 24:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 24:42
  Speaker B: And it's like, you know, it's totally transferred and it's like. And it's like, yeah, but we have. You're right. You have to. You have to recognize it. And then. And what you did, too, is you then asked for help, too. Give me a little space here for this.
• 24:57
  Speaker C: Yeah. So look at, you know, what you're bringing up is, isn't this something? See, we gotta do the work, but when we create an atmosphere like we're talking about right now, people grow when people can. You know what I mean? Like you said, even you were able to say, my God, you know, here I am, I'm going home. I'm afraid she's not going to be there. Even to be able to know that means something about the safety of your relationship with Dee Dee.
• 25:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's part of that process. It's like. Like, yeah. There was a lot more to work to do, but wearing that. We were in couples therapy at the time, so I was able. I had a place to talk about it, and. And, boy, it did not go quietly into the night easily because it was very, very deeply. It was. You know, of course it was for my family. It's like, it wasn't. It wasn't about. It wasn't about DeeDee. It was like. It was like, no, this. This. This comes from the beginning. And it. I needed lots of. Lots of permission, lots of support to be able to go there.
• 25:59
  Speaker C: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. That's what's been happening in my therapy lately. You know, some of what's going on with me the last few years, and I start to look back at this pattern I have in relationships, is that, you know, Dr. Miller, I think I pointed out to you that he said to me, you know, Alan, you've lived your life like you're testing your invulnerability all the time. When he said that to me, it was like. It was like, oh, my God, that's so true.
• 26:28
  Speaker A: You've been in actual. I was just going to say you've been in actual combat. You'd think you passed the ultimate test, but.
• 26:33
  Speaker C: Yeah, right. But no, no, let me. Let me get some. Let me. Let me find a woman who has no empathy, and let's see if I can create a relationship with her. Doesn't that sound like a great idea?
• 26:44
  Speaker B: Genius.
• 26:45
  Speaker C: Genius. Don't you think that's like, my God, that's exactly what I need to do.
• 26:51
  Speaker B: So.
• 26:51
  Speaker C: So I get in these relationships and then I start complaining about what's not happening. And he pointed out to you, he
• 26:57
  Speaker B: says, it's interesting because you just reminded me of one of my nutshells that's out on the wall in the waiting room out there that just says, don't. Don't measure your strength by your ability to stay in painful situations.
• 27:09
  Speaker C: That's me.
• 27:10
  Speaker B: And that's exactly what you just described.
• 27:12
  Speaker C: It's like, would you say, yes? So I could put that plaque up on my wall.
• 27:18
  Speaker B: I'll bring it next time we come and I'll give it to you. But it's like when people walk through. Yeah. I try to decorate my office with these little nutshells so that by the time they get to my office, I don't have to work very hard. You know, they're already in their. By the time they get to the.
• 27:39
  Speaker C: My life. I mean, you captured my whole life in that nutshell. So he said, how about this, Alan, just for an experiment this time when you start to date, why don't you pay attention to how much empathy the person shows you rather than how much you show them? He says, keep showing empathy. He says, that's important. You know, you are. You have a lot of empathy, but what you don't do is you let your empathy compensate for their lack. And I went, oh, my God, I have never walked into a relationship with that kind of consciousness.
• 28:14
  Speaker B: And he's pointing to the thing we've talked about recently, too, is that they're always in a place where it comes back to balance.
• 28:22
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 28:23
  Speaker B: Like, it's not just, oh, this is a. This is not a good characteristic. It's like, okay, but what do you. How do you balance it out? It's like, you know, even. Be even being giving. You know, it turns out it's. It's good for us to have strong enough boundaries where we. We simply don't give sometimes, you know, because it's not. It's not right thing for us to do. And it's like, that's sacrilege to codependence.
• 28:46
  Speaker C: Yes, that's. Yeah, that's right.
• 28:48
  Speaker B: It's like, oh, my God, you're going to codependent hell.
• 28:51
  Speaker C: That's right. You definitely. When you get something you've wanted, your first reaction is to feel the pain of not having it for so long.
• 28:58
  Speaker B: Here's the pain from the scar from not getting it. Here's what you needed all along. You're going to feel both. That's interesting. I never heard anybody say that too, because it's going to. It's going to dislodge this. It's going to, you're going to feel the pain of not having it and then you're going, then you're going to be. Probably the bigger challenge is, is to feel what it feels like when it actually shows up. That's the, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't think it's painful, but it's extremely difficult to learn to receive like that and trust it.
• 29:27
  Speaker C: Yeah. So this is a new experience for me, man. It really is.
• 29:31
  Speaker A: The curiosity keeps you.
• 29:32
  Speaker C: And as excited about this stuff as I was, probably more, more, more.
• 29:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:38
  Speaker C: You know, like the stuff we talked about today, we discovered these little gems left and right. I mean, you know, I, I remember a roomy poem that goes, where in the world with two roses can you get a whole rose garden? And right here in.