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What Makes Us Valuable? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina,
• 0:06
  and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses,
• 0:17
  and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body,
• 1:12
  and energy flow together.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, everyone, to yet another episode of Life & Flow podcast.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Polina.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host today.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm joined by my two co-hosts, Yulia and Irina.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, ladies.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And today we are going to be exploring what makes us valuable.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: What does it make you feel when I say valuable?
• 1:54
  I certainly have things that come up for me in my system when I
• 1:57
  hear that word.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just to quickly share,
• 2:03
  this topic came to me at first because I was part of a webinar
• 2:10
  where we were
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  SPEAKER_01: discussing value from an IFS perspective.
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  And something about just the word value always makes me feel a
• 2:21
  little bit tight and
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: constrained and
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I started thinking about this concept.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: What is value when it comes to a human being?
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  Like why are we still using a word that to me feels like still
• 2:41
  has a reference
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: point of measurement of some sort?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked up the word value, of course, as I usually do, and the Latin
• 2:54
  original uh word was valere which meant to be strong to be well
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  to be worthy so it
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  wasn't actually about how much something was worth it was more
• 3:07
  about the aliveness
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  aspect and i really liked that i was like ah so glad that i
• 3:14
  looked up this word so
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: somehow along the way i guess uh that living sense of worth
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  SPEAKER_01: in terms of the word value or the original Valere,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: or maybe I'm not pronouncing it right,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: it turned into a kind of like a scoreboard,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: A way to measure ourselves,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: to prove that we're good enough,
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  to measure the mercantile value of something that would be sold
• 3:42
  or purchased,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 3:43
  Like the value financially,
• 3:46
  but also value in terms of,
• 3:47
  there is also value in terms of meaning.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But still,
• 3:52
  It feels like the way we use that word has a resonance of
• 3:57
  measurement to it in the
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: way that we use it now.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So today,
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  SPEAKER_01: instead,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're going to be talking about value not as something that we earn,
• 4:11
  but really let's explore what happens when value becomes
• 4:15
  something we recognize.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: What if value isn't something we perform?
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  or achieve,
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  but something that reveals itself when we slow down enough to
• 4:29
  notice it.
• 4:30
  We're gonna start a little improv game to just see how we can
• 4:40
  shift with this concept of value.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's each of us grab an object in our space
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It could be anything, anything ordinary.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: A pen, a candle, a cup.
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  SPEAKER_01: Do this with us, whoever's listening.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever's nearby.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna go in turns.
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  SPEAKER_01: When it's your turn,
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  you're gonna go and you're gonna share for about like 60
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  seconds or a minute about
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  SPEAKER_01: why this object is the most valuable thing in the universe.
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  SPEAKER_01: But here's the twist.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can't describe what it's for.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So no descriptions of function.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Yun.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: A question.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can you refer indirectly to the function of the object?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: No.
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  SPEAKER_01: What we're going to be describing is the sense of being of this object.
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  SPEAKER_01: What does it evoke for you?
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  SPEAKER_01: What kind of energy, feeling, or story does it carry?
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  SPEAKER_01: But not function.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe you go start then.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll start.
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  SPEAKER_01: After each person shares,
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  SPEAKER_01: the next person,
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  if you feel like it can add a yes and reflection that connects
• 6:02
  to what was just
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  SPEAKER_01: shared about the object.
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  And basically as a way to sort of pass the thread of value
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  around the circle as we
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: weave it together,
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  SPEAKER_01: if possible.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is a bit of a difficult exercise.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I myself was like, oh, I don't know where we're going to do it.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Ir.
• 6:22
  Yes,
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  and I'm supposed to add something that is evoked for me the
• 6:29
  object of the previous person.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do we show the object?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we could definitely show the object.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why not?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're on camera.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: We should remember that we are recording the audio.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe let's not show the object.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So just describe it.
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  SPEAKER_01: We could show it later as a little reveal at the end.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'm listening to like...
• 7:01
  the feelings of the person regarding her object and then i add
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  what feelings i have
• 7:09
  towards this object that i haven't even seen based on what i
• 7:14
  perceived when the
• 7:15
  other person spoke do i understand it right that's not where
• 7:20
  where i think i was
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: going with it but i like it let's do that
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do that.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's try.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'll start.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, wait, wait.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just to clarify the rules.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I continue speaking about the previous object,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: and then I speak about mine,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: or we do three rounds about one round per each object?
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to describe my object.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you're going next or you,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 7:51
  whoever goes next can do a yes and about what was evoked from
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  my description of my
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: object.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go into describing your object.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there we go around the circle.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:04
  Yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm holding something that makes me feel warm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's the most valuable thing in the world because it...
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: creates a sense of warmth for me whenever I look at it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It holds a sense of comfort and softness.
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  It reminds me that there's a wild,
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  soft warmth out there somewhere in the pastures.
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  and it made me feel cozy okay this object that i'm holding um
• 9:05
  it actually also
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: gives me a sense of warmth we might have the same object i also
• 9:19
  sense how valuable this object is because when it becomes the
• 9:27
  center of my
• 9:29
  attention it goes really deep into my memories into my feelings
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  into my sensations
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  SPEAKER_00: and
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: it reveals often some of them that I was not even aware of.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this object is very alive.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm not feeling very alive, I can also always count
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: on it to share its aliveness with me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what is more precious than one depth and being alive.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and
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  SPEAKER_00: It made me think of, not even think, feel the presence and magic.
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  It created the sense of the magical object that accumulates
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  energy and can share energy.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the object that I hold in my hands,
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  SPEAKER_00: I find it beautiful because it has elegant lines and the touch
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  SPEAKER_00: gives me the sense of longing for beauty and finding it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the sense of harmony and joy of looking at something precious.
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  SPEAKER_00: Precious not in the sense of
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  monetary value but precious in the sense of beauty like the
• 12:23
  aesthetically pleasing
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  what that inspires in me is really like a sense of something
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  smooth and beautiful
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  SPEAKER_01: because of how smooth it is
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  SPEAKER_01: So like a visual and tactile, beautiful smoothness.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's reveal our objects.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Look at this smile.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it should be something fluffy.
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  SPEAKER_00: A little sheepy.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think we should share to our listeners who will listen to us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mine is a little bit, a little like a little animal, a sheep.
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  SPEAKER_01: with wool covering its little body.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it really reminds me of how much I love sheep.
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  When I was in the Netherlands,
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  I interacted and played with lots and lots of sheep.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, something about them just makes me...
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  come alive and so this is just a little symbol a representation
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  but it also does
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  inspire in me the sense of warmth and texture and wilder like
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  wilderness even
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  though they're domesticated but still they're kind of free in
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  the netherlands yeah
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: how about you i have this um small bivouac candle
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  yeah those candles i've been using them for a couple of years
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  just always the same
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  candles and we have a very rich history together a very nice
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  candle and i have a
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  SPEAKER_00: hairpin
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  SPEAKER_00: which is nice per se, but it also helps me to become more beautiful.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's double beauty.
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  SPEAKER_00: The beauty that creates beauty.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: What is the material?
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  it's uh wood and the metallic you like there is the metallic
• 14:50
  top very with nice
• 14:53
  ornament i love the feel of wood especially if it's smooth nice
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  yeah but also you
• 15:00
  like the combination of the touch of the wood that is warmth
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  with the very very
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: like intricate ornament of the metal
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  it's and it's you know sparky it was this the the metal
• 15:17
  reflects the light so it's
• 15:19
  more brilliant like this combination makes it very and when you
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  say warmth of the
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  wood is it because your your energy your your heat is
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  transferring into the wood
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  and warming it up no it's the the energy of the wood itself oh
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  super cool okay
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  SPEAKER_01: All right,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: so let's carry that feeling that we connected with into the rest of the
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  SPEAKER_01: conversation,
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  SPEAKER_01: that sensation.
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  And I want to ask each one of us,
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  when you hear the word valuable,
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  what happens inside of you?
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  SPEAKER_01: Describe it for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Lately, I realized that
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  SPEAKER_00: I've become quite scared and apprehensive about the word valuable.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's the word that I've been operating by valuable.
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  And in certain interactions with people,
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  when I share in business context,
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  SPEAKER_00: what's valuable to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to find an interaction where this value is shared.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I've had quite a few experiences where
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  what I find,
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  or maybe what I called,
• 17:08
  what I was calling in my mind valuable.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is clearly not seen as such by other people.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I guess this mismatch, it made me wonder
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  SPEAKER_00: actually, is it valuable?
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  SPEAKER_00: What makes it valuable and to whom?
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  SPEAKER_00: And maybe now it makes me think,
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  should I even approach this question as a question of value and
• 17:56
  being valuable?
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  Because I'm not yet sure,
• 18:02
  but something inside of me is now like some wheels are spinning
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some other angle of looking at this is trying to get through,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't know yet what it is.
• 18:21
  So when you feel this apprehension and when you think back to
• 18:24
  these experiences
• 18:25
  you've had where what you think is valuable as you're sharing
• 18:29
  it doesn't seem to be
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: resonating as value and valuable to those other,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: the people that you've been sharing this with,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: what is that land like in your body?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: What is the physical sensation that you're left with?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: The impulse is to go into a fetus position.
• 18:55
  and it's not really it's not any interaction per se that
• 19:02
  creates this impulse it's
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: rather i think an accumulated history i carry and some of it
• 19:12
  is of course me projecting things and being subjective and
• 19:16
  what's important to me
• 19:18
  how i see myself but you know oh with all that context and
• 19:26
  still that that is the
• 19:28
  impulse and being aware of that impulse is actually super
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  important because when
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: i'm aware of that impulse there are things that i can do
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: But also,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: this lens of being valuable,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to discussing it more.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:52
  So that sounds like it's a very deep and very important aspect
• 19:56
  in your system,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: like this whole...
• 20:01
  concept of value and also concept of value internally and how
• 20:06
  does it resonate with
• 20:09
  the external yeah the shared value of it all and in the heart
• 20:14
  of the physical
• 20:17
  desire to get into a fetal position is there also like one main
• 20:20
  flavor in terms of
• 20:22
  energy or emotion something you can like put a a tone on what's
• 20:29
  the main tone in
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: there
• 20:32
  in terms of like the resonance what the feeling the sense the
• 20:35
  emotion i'd say that
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: the color of it is gray and the main tone maybe it's flat
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Flatness.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Flatness, yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you for sharing.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that sounds like there's a lot that we can unpack there.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see how we unravel around this topic.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Ira, how about you?
• 21:04
  Well,
• 21:05
  first I must confess that I began feeling anxiety while I was
• 21:13
  listening to Yula.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there's...
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: This sensation that is grey and flat,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: it somehow permeates my system and it's not a very nice feeling.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, I also must say that the word value per se creates
• 21:50
  quite a contradictory experience for me in the sense that on
• 21:55
  one hand there is this
• 21:58
  sensation of of beauty of you're like you're like something
• 22:06
  precious that you're
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: like what we were sharing before like this you know like
• 22:18
  This feeling has a nucleus,
• 22:21
  so it has a center,
• 22:23
  and this center is expanding into the world.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this expansion is about the expansion of beauty.
• 22:34
  But at the same time,
• 22:37
  if I think about the concept of value as applied to myself,
• 22:45
  then there the contraction comes so it is like the value per se
• 23:00
  is about like what
• 23:04
  makes i guess it just came to me it's like what makes the world
• 23:09
  life beautiful for
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: us
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: But then the big question is like,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: because we were still,
• 23:19
  like value always comes with the aspect of evaluation and there
• 23:28
  is the part that
• 23:28
  has been evaluated and there is the part that is like creating
• 23:33
  this evaluation.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So am I beautiful enough
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: for whoever it is who will create this evaluation of me.
• 23:51
  To render,
• 23:53
  I like this word that Paulina loves using,
• 23:58
  to render this beauty into the world.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Am I worthy enough to create this beauty, this expansion?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going into an auxiliary word of worth.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about value, that's what I'm hearing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you're also bringing something up that I was going to bring into the
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: conversation a little bit later about value.
• 24:35
  the inherent value of something and then also the interplay of
• 24:40
  the reflection of something else
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that interact and how does that either add to or,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: take away from the inherent value of this thing,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: the thing that happens between us as humans,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what's coming up?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
• 25:00
  You're like the existence of the inherent value is in question
• 25:06
  for me at this moment.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're like, in this reflection,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was no inherent value per se.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: There is always the two parts.
• 25:23
  Because this beauty that is expanding in the world,
• 25:28
  it is for someone or for something.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there is another object that is evaluating this beauty.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if it exists on its own without the eyes of the beholder.
• 25:48
  But what about your own beauty as you experience it internally
• 25:53
  without the outside reflection?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: How do you...
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So within me there will be still two objects,
• 26:06
  one that creates beauty and the other one that perceives this
• 26:11
  creation of beauty or
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: does not perceive it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So in the example of your own beauty,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: what's creating the beauty and what's perceiving the beauty?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually like the perceiver creates the beauty of the other object.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: even if these are two my internal objects.
• 26:34
  So if there is no anyone who will perceive this beauty,
• 26:40
  the beauty doesn't exist.
• 26:42
  It's like if the tree falls down in the forest and there is no
• 26:47
  one in the forest,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: has the tree fallen down?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's true.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually am curious more about,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: you said,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm worthy enough to create this beauty,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: this expansion.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Am I beautiful enough for whoever?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when you are engaging with your own beauty, what's the mechanism then?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Your beauty, like your own beauty.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's my own beauty for someone else.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: But what about for you?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in this case, I should create this someone else inside of me.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: For it to be for me.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying there must be someone who is evaluating or who is...
• 27:45
  in awareness of your beauty in order for you to have contact
• 27:51
  with self beauty.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is how it's immersion for me.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 28:03
  I think I already shared at the top what happens for me when I
• 28:10
  hear the word
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: valuable,
• 28:11
  but I'll just quickly bring it to the space one more time since
• 28:16
  we're talking about
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: it.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I immediately have like a
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: like there's something to fight against kind of response.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, I don't like this word.
• 28:32
  Especially when it comes to us as humans and as expressions of
• 28:39
  consciousness.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: I really don't like the word.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: I immediately need to go and understand what does the word actually mean?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Where does it come from?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: What was it originally meant for?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why I go and look up the definitions.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: But especially when it comes to
• 28:57
  me interacting with value internally as as me as the the
• 29:01
  expression of whoever it
• 29:03
  is that i am whatever it is that i am um it actually feels like
• 29:13
  a like a core topic
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: a core
• 29:22
  aspect to engage with to discover to explore to figure out to
• 29:27
  see how i connect to
• 29:29
  it how do i resonate with it where do i sit with it um i don't
• 29:32
  know if that makes
• 29:33
  sense but that that's that's how i experience it are you gonna
• 29:39
  say something you
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: know really but as you were talking and you said core
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: a visual that came to me was now,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: and it's also related to my story of it that I shared.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's as if it's actually a shell, rather.
• 30:10
  But valuable,
• 30:11
  maybe for me,
• 30:12
  valuable is a shell that I actually want to break.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want the shell to be there.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: The container that it creates is too specific somehow.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I like that description because it kind of touches my description.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: It is like a shell that I don't want to be there.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be encased in this thing.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: It feels very constrictive,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: constrained,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: not in essence to describe the essence of me,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: of you,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: of us.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for bringing that in.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So as we keep exploring,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I actually have another question that always comes up for me,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: especially lately when it comes to this topic,
• 31:09
  which is when did you first learn that being good equaled to
• 31:16
  being valuable?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a question out of left field.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is something we've explored in different ways,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: the three of us,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: because we do certain practices.
• 31:35
  And when it comes to being a woman in the world,
• 31:39
  this is especially an important aspect.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: So just for the listeners,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: in case it sounds like I'm bringing something up that's like,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: where did that come from?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Julia, what were you going to say?
• 31:56
  One of the things that I grew up with that my mother used to
• 32:02
  say is the gold mine
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: is small,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: but really valuable.
• 32:09
  And she was referring to herself when me and my sister started
• 32:13
  to outgrow her.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: So she was referring more to physical hate.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: But somehow now it has a different connotation for me.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: It refers to gold, right?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it measures...
• 32:34
  her um and actually i think it's um at least in in my
• 32:41
  consciousness somehow the
• 32:42
  saying was also as always tied with women and maybe the saying
• 32:47
  actually is not
• 32:48
  really tied with women and maybe some other people used it to
• 32:53
  describe other things
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: and concepts but for me
• 32:58
  like okay so this is has something to do with um you know
• 33:03
  precious metals with gold
• 33:05
  with um you know emeralds or whatever and somehow maybe the
• 33:12
  association that comes
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: is that
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: the beauty is also supposed to match those precious stones and metals.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: this is somehow I would trace,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: a lot,
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: not a lot,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: but some of it that comes now to mind to this,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: to the same.
• 33:38
  So your mother was referring to yourself in terms of height and
• 33:42
  referencing
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: the value of gold, that the value of gold goes beyond height.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: What was it in Russian?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: What was the phrase?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: One more time?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: But what is a Zolotnik?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a small gold mine.
• 34:16
  okay cool so and how does this tie to good being being you know
• 34:25
  equaling to being
• 34:26
  valuable but being good equals you're valuable yeah this one
• 34:34
  actually it doesn't
• 34:35
  directly tie to any behaviors um and i don't know why it came
• 34:40
  to mind but there was
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: something about this um
• 34:44
  exchange between the three women of the family involving gold
• 34:51
  that made me think
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: about the same.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you're bringing up a thread of like
• 35:00
  Maybe it isn't human nature to always look to beauty,
• 35:03
  which is what you brought up earlier.
• 35:05
  This whole aspect of beauty is what,
• 35:09
  for a lot of us,
• 35:10
  makes inherently something more valuable.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: The more beautiful it is, right?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: The more valuable it seems to be.
• 35:21
  Not in terms of size,
• 35:22
  like in your mom's example,
• 35:24
  Yul,
• 35:24
  but in terms of like
• 35:27
  gold right what do we think about when we think of gold shiny
• 35:31
  precious um so it
• 35:35
  could be a tiny object but still be super valuable like i guess
• 35:41
  here there is some
• 35:43
  it also speaks to the concentration of power which is how this
• 35:48
  one now um factors
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: into our discussion about being good and
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: that equaling being valuable,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: but what you,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Pauline,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: were sharing,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: refers to this inherent power that these objects have.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: I could feel that, actually, the inherent power.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's an energetic quality to it, right?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's something ominous even about it.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, in this moment, it feels like almost like...
• 36:29
  okay um here how about you when did you first learn that being
• 36:36
  good also equals
• 36:38
  being valuable or something it depends it depends whether you
• 36:43
  like learned
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: consciously
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or learned in the sense of behavior,
• 36:51
  the inherent learning that's something that is inside of me and
• 36:56
  guides my behavior
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: and my being and how I feel about it.
• 36:59
  Because I came into this world to fulfill the ideals and the
• 37:08
  dreams of my parents.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was good from the moment zero of my life.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was not behaviorally conditioned.
• 37:20
  So no one was really showing me by subtle signs that if you're
• 37:27
  not good,
• 37:27
  we will not love you.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was loved by everyone for my whole life.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I was loved as I realized when I was...
• 37:39
  an adult already because i was good or at least you're like
• 37:45
  this is the the neural
• 37:49
  link that has been created in my psyche unconsciously obviously
• 37:54
  because you're like
• 37:55
  i was always praised for how good i was in this and that and
• 38:00
  that and like everyone
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: loved me
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: consciously,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: I realized that this is the case when,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: it was not so long time ago,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: maybe 10 years ago,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: I began realizing it.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: That actually, it is the case that there is this link.
• 38:21
  Wait,
• 38:21
  but the way you're describing it,
• 38:23
  it sounds like you came in experiencing being loved...
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you weren't given any cues as to why you're being loved.
• 38:33
  But just eventually,
• 38:34
  somehow,
• 38:35
  you still associated being loved to how good you were.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is the...
• 38:48
  the environment i grew up in so like all the cues all the
• 38:54
  inputs that i was
• 38:55
  receiving on that scale we love you you are the best and look
• 39:00
  at the arena she is
• 39:01
  good and this is good and this is good so it automatically
• 39:06
  creates this inclusion
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: you're like we love you because you're good
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when obviously it's impossible to be loved by everyone,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm not a dollar,
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: but I wanted to be a dollar.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be loved by everyone.
• 39:25
  So every time when I come across the situations when I perceive
• 39:32
  that I'm not loved,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: oops,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: like my world is falling apart.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Even now still?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's still the most, you're like, painful.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not good or you're not loved,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: which one or is it both that your world starts falling into?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's linked.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's still linked.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: If I make an error,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: if I make a mistake,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm not good at whatever,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: then in my head,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: immediately,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I will not be loved.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what about self-love?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Where does self-love, like you loving yourself, where does that end up?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: But again, love is conditioned by the concept of value.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And as we discussed before,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: for value to exist,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: there should be another one to create this value.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: So even the self-love,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: there should be two of me,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: the one who gives value and the one who has value.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but are there two?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: The value is always earned.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: But do you have a second you, proverbially or however?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is there one that helps you feel self-love?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a part inside of you that plays that role?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can create it.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can create it.
• 41:09
  It still doesn't give the deeply integrated feeling of the
• 41:17
  inherent value.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: The inherent value is something that would...
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: not depend on the external evaluation.
• 41:28
  Because in the case of two me's inside of me,
• 41:33
  it's still the process of external evaluation.
• 41:38
  There is a part of me that receives an external evaluation from
• 41:43
  a different part of me.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: So does it imply, Ira, I'm curious, does it imply that there is...
• 41:54
  like some conflict or tension or at least constant potential
• 42:00
  for conflict and
• 42:01
  tension if they're always yes yes because there is always the
• 42:10
  potential that i will
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: not be good enough and hence i will not be loved
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's always in my head.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that the world demonstrates me.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: The world is what it is.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Someone loves me.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Still, the majority of people in my environment still love me.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still loved by everyone.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: But in my head,
• 42:36
  I'm always in this conflict and in this tension that I will not
• 42:42
  be good and hence I
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: will not be loved by someone I imagine in my head.
• 42:48
  So it's kind of like something that can be withdrawn from you
• 42:52
  at any moment.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's even not something that can be withdrawn from me.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that I constantly need to earn.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: That makes me feel sad.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is sad.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hence, this is like such a core topic.
• 43:28
  It goes all the way back and it's the most pervasive in a lot
• 43:33
  of very important
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: ways,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: not just concept,
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: but like really aspect of our existence and how we experience the world.
• 43:48
  So,
• 43:48
  actually,
• 43:48
  I wanted to,
• 43:49
  because of what you just brought up,
• 43:51
  Ira,
• 43:51
  I wanted to share...
• 43:52
  Wait.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: What about you?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can share before I share the story.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: I actually had a bit of a different experience,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: if we're going to talk about all the way back.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I experienced not being good from the very get-go.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, everything I was...
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: and everything I expressed and every way in which I,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 44:26
  behaved and acted most of the ways it felt like was not good
• 44:30
  enough from the get go
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: for the people that,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: were surrounding me.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, um,
• 44:39
  I spent majority of my time in the beginning just pushing
• 44:44
  against all of them and
• 44:45
  their opinions of me and still like exploring the way I wanted
• 44:50
  to explore.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: realized that if I figure out how to play the game of being good,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: which to me was a game,
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: then I can get access to more safety and stability and more...
• 45:16
  Like it was a way to almost be a conductor with the instruments
• 45:22
  that I had to
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: interact with.
• 45:26
  so being good you know meant that there was a way to have a
• 45:34
  little bit of more
• 45:36
  predictability or yeah predictability in life ways of dealing
• 45:49
  with these adults
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: that i had to deal with um
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if I still associated it with being good,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: like a good girl,
• 46:02
  or just I figured out how to do things and perform things in
• 46:08
  ways that kept the
• 46:12
  environment quieter or kept the adults feeling more secure
• 46:20
  about what am I up to in
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: the world,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: What are you hearing me say?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: I need a reflection point back.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: What am I saying?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can someone repeat it back to me?
• 46:34
  It's actually quite interesting that being good is the
• 46:40
  mechanisms of adaptation.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're playing the game of being good is what I took a note.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really that you made this distinction between being good and
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or like presenting the...
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: How to...
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: To phrase it,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: like the characteristics of good behavior,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: good results,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: good whatever in order for...
• 47:18
  For obtaining more security and more control in your
• 47:23
  interaction with the world.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 47:26
  And so this goes back to my original point of why the word
• 47:30
  value gets me so triggered.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wanted to be allowed to just be fucking me.
• 47:42
  it wasn't okay so i had to figure out how to play the game of
• 47:45
  whatever they think
• 47:46
  is is okay right and do that but that original sense of like
• 47:51
  just let me be me let
• 47:54
  me express how i want to express what i want to express let it
• 47:58
  that let that be
• 47:59
  okay and not just okay but like witness it honor it let it
• 48:03
  bloom you know like that
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: original tension
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: was there the entire time,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: even when I played in the game and I learned how to play the game,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: as brilliantly as I possibly could.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way,
• 48:17
  even when I turned to be super good and was like a straight A
• 48:20
  student and went and
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: got my grad degree,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: like really did things that,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: that there were externally pretty good.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: But somehow in my family unit,
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: none of it really registered as something like super cool or amazing.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like, yeah, you know, yeah.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: You did that.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
• 48:46
  Like,
• 48:46
  it still didn't get me to that sense of like,
• 48:49
  oh,
• 48:49
  I'm good,
• 48:50
  you know?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: So regardless, it was like a lose-lose.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was just,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: in playing the game,
• 48:56
  I guess I was able to build up some education credentials and
• 49:01
  get some like cool
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: jobs on my resume,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: like cool according to society,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: not necessarily that initial me,
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: who I wanted to be.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 49:12
  And still I'm left with this sense of I want to rebel against
• 49:16
  this whole fucking thing.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Value like,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: my God,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: when someone brings that word into a coaching environment,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: I get really mad.
• 49:25
  Like that part of me that still has obviously some work to do
• 49:29
  around this,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: that that part of me really gets like this tension.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yul, were you going to say something?
• 49:39
  Your family also adapted to the game and you guys were throwing
• 49:46
  ball at each other.
• 49:47
  Like,
• 49:47
  let me now adapt this way and get this degree and do something
• 49:55
  that no one expects of me.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, she's doing that.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let us pretend that it's fine, nothing special.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like an interesting spiral.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting point.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if they were also playing the game.
• 50:17
  It feels like maybe they just weren't really connected to the
• 50:21
  game in a very conscious way.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's why there wasn't like a recognition.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: There was a little bit of recognition, but it didn't feel like
• 50:30
  oh,
• 50:30
  like I really want this game,
• 50:31
  you know,
• 50:32
  kind of recognition,
• 50:34
  if that makes sense.
• 50:36
  Yeah,
• 50:37
  but people play games without realizing they're playing games
• 50:41
  all the time.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then there is this question,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: what is really value for each of us,
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: even within the family,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: because these things are rarely discussed.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: You make a lot of assumptions usually.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: for bringing value into the family.
• 51:15
  Sometimes it turns out that the other side probably looks at it
• 51:20
  and appreciates the
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: effort,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: the side.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: It appreciates the effort, whoever is on that side.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, I think he's like, is she crazy?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is she doing all those things?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's not me.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: I all these years later,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: I looked back on my life and I was like,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: shit,
• 51:43
  I put so much time and energy into doing certain things that I
• 51:46
  thought were super
• 51:47
  valuable for these people just to realize that actually none of
• 51:53
  it registered is
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: valuable to them.
• 51:57
  so that also makes you really question wait what is value you
• 52:01
  know like what is
• 52:01
  value what is internal value how is it connected to that
• 52:06
  inherent type of value
• 52:07
  like the like the sense of self but then also value in terms of
• 52:14
  what makes you feel
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: alive what do you really what matters right
• 52:18
  then of course the very external concept of value which is like
• 52:22
  okay do other
• 52:22
  people think this is good and will they pay money for it right
• 52:25
  or will they do
• 52:26
  favors for it like the whole spectrum of it is is really under
• 52:31
  question uh years
• 52:34
  what's coming up for you um i was just thinking about the the
• 52:46
  word invaluable
• 52:50
  and so like for nothing they say that okay so like if we're
• 52:56
  struggling with our own
• 52:58
  worth so like we need to realize what we are invaluable which
• 53:02
  just means that we
• 53:03
  don't have value you're like it it's something outside of what
• 53:11
  can be measured like
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: we don't have value
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 53:16
  invaluable means you have so much value that literally there
• 53:19
  can't be a value
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: measurement put on it.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like beyond any measurement.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's invaluable.
• 53:25
  It's like completely precious and rare and like just there
• 53:30
  cannot be a value assigned to it.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or you're like,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: if you don't have value at all,
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: you're still invaluable because you still can't assign value to it.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can't assign value to something that can't be measured.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of my questions.
• 53:48
  Why are we still using a form of measurement when we're talking
• 53:52
  about this inherent
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: sense of self?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we still using a word...
• 53:58
  okay maybe originally that word was better used but right now
• 54:03
  this word is it does
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: carry a form of measurement with it so why are we still using it in in
• 54:09
  conversations about spirituality and personal development and
• 54:13
  like all those other
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: things you know in terms of psychology what's coming up you're
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing actually is coming up.
• 54:22
  I'm still pondering the question,
• 54:25
  trying to understand what it is that I'm sensing.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm okay.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, oh, sorry.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think the vibe of tonight for me is that of confusion.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot say that I'm having a lot of clarity,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: but then,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: something like really interesting is happening,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: so.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Something interesting is definitely happening.
• 54:58
  Does someone want to describe what this interesting thing
• 55:01
  that's happening is so
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: that we can all be honest?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's still happening.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: How can we describe it?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't happen in value.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yul is already having some kind of experience.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yul, do you want to say more about what's happening?
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, but this...
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 55:22
  the different points that I mentioned in my life and then the
• 55:27
  points that you
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: mentioned,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: the way that the concept of value was experienced by you in childhood.
• 55:36
  I think I'm just,
• 55:37
  those things somehow are coming together and maybe I'm seeing a
• 55:43
  thread.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pattern that's now still with me and that is super,
• 55:52
  interesting just to become aware of it and i think it's uh
• 55:58
  whatever i said about
• 56:00
  the shell cracking i think it's pretty good now for for
• 56:05
  cracking your shell
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you're saying the shell is currently being sort of cracked?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's some kind of cracking on it?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: There is tension in the shell.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, tension in the shell.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: It probably doesn't feel very good, but... Yeah.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm also thinking about,
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe it's not quite in line with your question,
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: but there is something there between the tension,
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 56:45
  between valuable that has this material connotation and what
• 56:54
  are our inherent
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: values?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: which are,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to talk about me and my inherent values at the moment,
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: which I experience with a lot of intensity,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: is really being so aware of the beauty,
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: of the natural beauty,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like being really touched by seeing a bird,
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:36
  coming close or like a leaf or different shapes of flocks of
• 57:44
  birds that are flying
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: south now.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been lately a thread,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: this very intensely and feeling,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: this is where value for me is.
• 58:00
  and then of course always knowing that value is for the you
• 58:09
  know structures for the
• 58:10
  human structures is somewhere else um but it's also you know
• 58:18
  probably as we
• 58:20
  discussed we're at some um threshold so i think maybe the two
• 58:25
  are going to become
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: closer and to
• 58:29
  merge but i personally i don't really use the word valuable in
• 58:35
  oral conversations
• 58:37
  um in coaching or in life i guess it's more a framework that
• 58:43
  i've been operating
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: with thank you for sharing that
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ir, I also interrupted you earlier.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: What were you going to say?
• 59:04
  I didn't notice that you interrupted me,
• 59:07
  so I don't know what I was going to say.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Wait,
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: I want to share the story that you,
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Ir,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: shared with us real quick,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: because it's really on topic.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I really liked when I read it, I really reflected on it.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it could give us a little bit more...
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit more to work with in a specific direction.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that story that you sent about the kindergarten in Tokyo.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: That banned the word good for an entire month.
• 59:44
  So the teachers could only describe what they noticed without
• 59:47
  using any qualifiers,
• 59:48
  right?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, oh, I see that you're using blue today.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or...
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: oh, you tied your shoelaces faster or you helped your friend, right?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just no, like, qualifications, no quantifications of what is being done.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: And within two weeks,
• 1:00:02
  the children stopped showing their work to the teachers and
• 1:00:04
  instead started to
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: share it with one another more.
• 1:00:08
  And they started to play louder and had more confidence and
• 1:00:14
  were steadier in the
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: way that they were observed.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: So when they were seen without judgment,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: this was kind of the analysis or the summary of the study.
• 1:00:26
  When they were seen without judgment,
• 1:00:27
  these kids,
• 1:00:28
  they didn't stop seeking connection.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: They just found it through presence instead of approval.
• 1:00:36
  So I'm wondering what shifts in us when we're simply noticed
• 1:00:41
  instead of evaluated.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it happened to us now,
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: at our age,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: that the shift would be made that easiest for the kids.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're still forming their links in their psyche.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we have them already formed.
• 1:01:18
  So I was touched by that story because it resonated with my own
• 1:01:25
  story that I
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: shared,
• 1:01:27
  that I saw in my own experience clearly how constant appraisal
• 1:01:33
  still does not do
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: very good.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: And also it made me...
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: reminded me that,
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: in creative thinking sessions,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: when we enter the phase of the divergent thinking,
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: so there is this rule of suspending judgment,
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: which means when we set the rules for the interaction between the people,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: it's not just prohibited to critique the ideas of the other.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: We do not
• 1:02:18
  render any evaluation so you don't say it's bad but you don't
• 1:02:22
  say it's good either
• 1:02:24
  and it's for the same reason so like to eliminate any like the
• 1:02:33
  connection between
• 1:02:35
  the value and the possibilities that the idea of the object or
• 1:02:44
  the project or
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: whatever may have
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were to put yourself in that equation,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: when it comes to your internal beauty,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: what would happen then?
• 1:03:01
  Well,
• 1:03:01
  this is what I'm realizing that I,
• 1:03:07
  you're like this,
• 1:03:08
  you know,
• 1:03:10
  walk on understanding.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: the necessity to be good because this is the only proof of my own value.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: So this is my constant struggle has been for the last years.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually the main point
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: of all my inner transcendence, it's invincible.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't go away anywhere.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized today, of course, because it still connects.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: This looking,
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: the quest for finding the inherent value,
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: as I say,
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: my inherent value,
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: just I'm valuable just because I exist.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't exist.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because value is always related to the evaluation.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's no such thing as inherent value.
• 1:04:05
  So I just need to allow myself to just be means to allow myself
• 1:04:17
  to be without value.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: To have no value at all.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't that be liberating?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: It should be, I guess.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: I still experientially can't feel it.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: How it could be experienced.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's scary.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it's scary.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it should be liberating, I imagine.
• 1:04:58
  I think this is one of the things that I've been experiencing
• 1:05:04
  lately in my outings
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: into the wood,
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: which really creates some flow
• 1:05:22
  where I relax into flow and I almost become part of the
• 1:05:30
  environment and all the
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: tension goes away.
• 1:05:34
  And one of the things I think that makes it so makes me feel so
• 1:05:43
  light after and
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: just and liberating is that
• 1:05:53
  the whatever,
• 1:05:54
  three,
• 1:05:54
  four hours,
• 1:05:57
  I'm not evaluating or judging myself at all.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow it has to do with the, I guess, with the way
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: trees, plants, animals are.
• 1:06:14
  I'm kind of like,
• 1:06:16
  I learned I guess to approach the matrix a little bit closer.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me feels,
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: now that I'm thinking about another radical acceptance conversation,
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: feels like radical acceptance.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this radical acceptance at the root means that I don't need to show,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: to demonstrate anything to anyone.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that means, you know, my value is not there.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or whatever the value is, no one cares.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: So again,
• 1:06:54
  my conclusion is that the human environment usually is
• 1:07:03
  challenging for getting out
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: of the frameworks,
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of frameworks that we operate.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because we do.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because everywhere you go, it will be used.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: And try as hard as you want to feel free.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it doesn't really work.
• 1:07:32
  But actually,
• 1:07:34
  these periods,
• 1:07:38
  they're very regenerative that now I'm thinking about.
• 1:07:51
  made me think that in flow indeed there is no the notion of
• 1:08:04
  self-value because
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: there is no self so this is about getting rid of the self
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, self, go away.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would say not so much getting rid of it,
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: but getting it in line with whatever you're flowing with.
• 1:08:39
  Well,
• 1:08:39
  to me,
• 1:08:40
  it sounds like we're talking about what is the experience of
• 1:08:43
  self?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: the experience of self,
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: the way it's expressed,
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: the way it is felt,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: the way it is registered in the field,
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: whether with the elements or with other humans or other beings.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: but also for me,
• 1:09:05
  when I interacted with the question of what shifts one were
• 1:09:08
  simply noticed instead
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: of evaluated,
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have had a felt sense of how different of an experience that is for my
• 1:09:28
  exploration of self and in some indirect way also exploration
• 1:09:35
  of value because when
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: I came into Kasia's world,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: as I think the three of us have already talked about before,
• 1:09:45
  Something in the container that she creates has women meet one
• 1:09:49
  another with like
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: automatic immediate approval.
• 1:09:55
  which takes away the whole element of judgment and evaluation
• 1:09:59
  per se,
• 1:10:00
  right?
• 1:10:01
  So you actually end up coming in contact with other women and
• 1:10:07
  you are literally
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: just being,
• 1:10:09
  the space is held for you and they're present to you and
• 1:10:14
  whatever you're sharing
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: and it's already approved,
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: so there's no evaluation needed.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that for me created a sense of freedom.
• 1:10:25
  to actually be with myself in a whole other way while also with
• 1:10:29
  another human.
• 1:10:30
  Meaning like just the freedom to express whatever I'm
• 1:10:35
  expressing in that moment in
• 1:10:36
  time without worry as to what does it mean or how is it gonna
• 1:10:41
  land or how will it
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: be judged?
• 1:10:44
  So it actually gave me a felt sense of what it could be like if
• 1:10:50
  humans were to
• 1:10:52
  interact with one another in that way and how freeing it could
• 1:10:57
  be to really have
• 1:10:59
  sort of the foundation to explore what is your unique
• 1:11:05
  expression in the world and
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: not just explore it in a way where you're concretizing who you are,
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: but I mean like really,
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: have the experience and the experiment of,
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: from moment to moment,
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: have an exploration of what your expression of all that you are is,
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: and which also changes from moment to moment.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So like meaning you don't even have to have baggage,
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: like meaning like suitcases of,
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: these are all the things that I am.
• 1:11:40
  So I'm always gonna have these suitcases with me because that
• 1:11:43
  is who I am.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: But actually like unpacking the suitcases and just saying to yourself,
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I might,
• 1:11:51
  I don't know who I am or what I am and whatever I am in that
• 1:11:54
  moment is okay.
• 1:11:56
  And I get to play and interact with it and almost like explore
• 1:12:00
  and discover myself
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: when I'm being held and noticed,
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And just witnessed without judgment, just with approval.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But approval doesn't...
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Approval because no judgment,
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_01: meaning like I approve you,
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: whoever you are,
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: whatever expression you are.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I have no judgment about it.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I approve it.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I also had to think about that word, but also the energetics behind it.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's coming up for you that you're questioning?
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: To me, the word approval still has the connection to value.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: but approving of whatever you are and whoever you are,
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: no matter what,
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: that means there is no value.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm not going to make a judgment about it.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: When there is no value, it doesn't require any approval.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so maybe it's actually the inherent value.
• 1:13:17
  I'm approving of the fact that you are inherently valuable in
• 1:13:21
  your expression.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: but as I already expressed today now,
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really questioning if such thing as the inherent value exists.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I understand what you are describing,
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: the false sense you are describing,
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: but I still have like...
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I feel the dissonance with the word approval.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I can understand that.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've had a different journey, but for my journey...
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: the experience of something I have not experienced,
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_01: which is I haven't experienced approval and acceptance,
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: in my lifetime.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So this was the first time.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I understand.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Strangers gave me the opposite sense.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I was able to engage.
• 1:14:17
  What is an opposite experience to constantly living with
• 1:14:23
  judgment and disapproval,
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_01: which was,
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_01: kind of the flavor of my lifetime,
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: majority of the time.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: This experience gave me the opposite,
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_01: which helps the neural network and also your nervous system.
• 1:14:37
  It learns better by experiencing the opposite before you end up
• 1:14:40
  somewhere in the middle.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, this is on a spectrum and this is on my own journey.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, this was really important.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can imagine.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can imagine.
• 1:14:53
  Just witness me as I am exploring and experiencing myself
• 1:14:58
  without me worrying about
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_01: what is it going to look like to you?
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_01: What are you going to think about it?
• 1:15:02
  It's actually almost like the ability to be you with another
• 1:15:12
  human without worrying
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: about their humanity in the equation.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting one.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: This sounds like shamanism.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Does it?
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: How?
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:15:30
  because at least the definition of shamanism that I heard is
• 1:15:33
  about removing the
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: social component and the social conditioning.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So what shamans do, they travel to their, let's say,
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: animal unconditioned cells.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not what you're describing, but the wording was kind of similar.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there is still a lot of conditioning involved.
• 1:16:09
  It's just maybe less than usually,
• 1:16:13
  because I imagine if someone were to share
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I killed whatever,
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I killed someone today,
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_00: then even automatically the human response would be there,
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:16:34
  So I guess it's like a shared agreement that to a certain
• 1:16:41
  extent tolerates
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know, a wide range of expression.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's right.
• 1:16:52
  So in the context of value,
• 1:16:56
  if if my definition,
• 1:16:58
  for example,
• 1:16:59
  about value is like.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like that word,
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: period,
• 1:17:04
  but let's say what I what I engage with when it comes to those
• 1:17:09
  concepts is more
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: this is life being expressed,
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So then in one some shape, shape or form, there is
• 1:17:21
  an aliveness there,
• 1:17:22
  therefore it is inherently valuable because it's alive.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yet the expression of this aliveness, of course, lands on a spectrum.
• 1:17:35
  But when we talk about aliveness being inherently valuable or
• 1:17:40
  worthy because it's
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: alive,
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: we can't mean only if it's like happy and joyful and nice,
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:17:48
  Because even we experience the whole spectrum of emotion and
• 1:17:52
  experience in our own
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: selves from day to day,
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: like fear and anger and rage and all kinds of stuff.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So just because,
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: someone is a criminal and has killed someone,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe we don't want to engage with this type of expression of aliveness,
• 1:18:14
  and maybe there's all kinds of ethical concerns and humanistic
• 1:18:20
  concerns and
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_01: societal concerns about it.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: But does that behavior take away
• 1:18:28
  from the inherent aliveness of that being and then do we think
• 1:18:34
  about like why are
• 1:18:36
  they expressing their aliveness in this way or is there
• 1:18:39
  something getting in the
• 1:18:40
  way you know is there something that's shifting the lens
• 1:18:46
  through which their light
• 1:18:47
  is coming through whatever you want to say like their energetic
• 1:18:50
  imprint is being
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: expressed in this way uh just for the hell of it or like
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are there reasons why it's happening this way?
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I don't know.
• 1:19:01
  This is a complicated aspect and perspective that I also was
• 1:19:06
  sitting with as I was
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_01: thinking about what we're going to talk about today.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because we can't, value cannot be only in a mercantile culture.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, value is only if it's good.
• 1:19:21
  But if we're talking about inherent value,
• 1:19:23
  it cannot just be only if it's good.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's something else that needs to be engaged with.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about measurement.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_01: If it's about spirit,
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: energy,
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_01: then the whole conversation shifts to a different conversation.
• 1:19:45
  And that's what was really hard for me as I was thinking about
• 1:19:48
  how do we have this conversation?
• 1:19:49
  Because like this conversation has like five different
• 1:19:51
  conversations within it.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just all our conversations have five different conversations.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, so conditioning definitely ties into how we interact with value.
• 1:20:14
  But also,
• 1:20:15
  I guess if we are to talk about one aspect that we've already
• 1:20:20
  touched on today,
• 1:20:23
  the way we've been conditioned to think about values,
• 1:20:26
  it's in the doing,
• 1:20:27
  right?
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_01: In the achieving and the being useful or good.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:20:32
  but the question that I was asking was myself that I'm gonna
• 1:20:37
  share with you is,
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_01: can we rewire ourselves from this chasing
• 1:20:48
  mechanism to more of a receiving mechanism in terms of value
• 1:20:54
  which could help us to
• 1:20:55
  maybe shift the way we interact with value and and also rewire
• 1:21:01
  from seeking to
• 1:21:02
  being like if we shift those two perspectives so instead of
• 1:21:07
  chasing we're receiving
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_01: and instead of seeking external recognition of our value we're just being
• 1:21:17
  What does,
• 1:21:18
  if anything,
• 1:21:19
  what does that shift for you as you interact with the concept
• 1:21:22
  of value?
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_03: What are we receiving?
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so value does not need to be proven.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's just only allowed.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about being this value.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_01: That to me feels like a burden.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it sounds being a value.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a value.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a no value, really.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, but that's what I mean.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: That value just means you are being you.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not that you're being valuable.
• 1:22:08
  So if we shift the concept of value to value,
• 1:22:13
  it just means that you are you.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_01: You are being you.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I am, therefore I am valuable.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am all for reframing.
• 1:22:26
  But I feel that if we want to shift from all the tension that
• 1:22:34
  our concept of value
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_00: had created for us,
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would just move away from the concept of value completely.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is what just Yulia has said.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I would love to move away from value.
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Let's move away from value.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we go?
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Value is not being.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just be without value.
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So be without value.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_01: That is what you propose.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_01: How does that sound for you?
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_01: How does that land for you, Yul?
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I engaged several times in this...
• 1:23:22
  rebellious act also with some members of my family who is like
• 1:23:28
  well and maybe are
• 1:23:30
  you sure you want to do this what value does it bring um and
• 1:23:36
  yeah i think it's
• 1:23:37
  better not to play this game of value if you want to change the
• 1:23:42
  um the framework
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_00: and get out of the value so what maybe we could instead see how we could
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_00: shift our worldview somehow to not play in this field.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because if,
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of accused that this is not perceived as value for the family,
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_00: then I need to justify myself.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I better say that, you know, I'm out of here.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm out of this framework and I don't yet have an alternative framework.
• 1:24:24
  I think a few times I improvise saying something,
• 1:24:27
  but it's not something that has stuck with me.
• 1:24:35
  And this is the big question,
• 1:24:37
  like,
• 1:24:37
  is the life expression of us within the social network
• 1:24:49
  SPEAKER_00: possible without the concept of value.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_00: You see,
• 1:24:54
  the value is coming from evaluation and we can't operate in
• 1:24:59
  this world without
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_00: evaluation.
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're wired for evaluation.
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Our nervous system literally is wired to evaluate.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a survival tool.
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess it's not so much eliminating value at all.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's learning to transcend it, to break the shell.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then the freedom comes from being able to choose something.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_00: in what framework I choose to operate at this moment.
• 1:25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it's a synthesis of human animal and human spirit.
• 1:25:39
  Maybe it's actually welcoming who we are biologically,
• 1:25:44
  like how we're wired.
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're wired to look at things as this or that, right?
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we welcome and integrate that, but have a more
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_01: zoomed out perspective on it as well,
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_01: like also welcome and integrate something beyond it at the same time.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, I think.
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Talking about the context and the social environment
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_00: like transcending the social environment.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard unless you go and become a monk or something.
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's why there is so much tension,
• 1:26:37
  because now the social environment is so evaluating every step
• 1:26:43
  that people make and
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_00: it evaluates in a very specific way.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_00: How about we all go to the forest?
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_01: We should all go to the forest.
• 1:27:08
  But I also want to point out what you said is important because
• 1:27:11
  there is a
• 1:27:11
  difference between value as we're speaking about it and what
• 1:27:15
  society or a person or
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_01: people find valuable.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Those are two different things we're talking about.
• 1:27:22
  Value as inherent value versus things that people find valuable
• 1:27:27
  are two different concepts.
• 1:27:30
  So if value is intrinsic,
• 1:27:32
  why do we still need others to reflect it back to us?
• 1:27:35
  SPEAKER_01: This goes back to the whole discussion we had with you earlier.
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe reflection doesn't create value.
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_01: What if it just reveals it?
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_00: That is an interesting thought.
• 1:28:00
  Like without mirroring,
• 1:28:01
  like your analogy with the tree in the forest that falls,
• 1:28:04
  right?
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: If there's no one to witness it.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_01: But without mirroring,
• 1:28:07
  can we really feel connected to our essence but have no sense
• 1:28:11
  of how that essence
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_01: lands in the field of others?
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can have a sense of our own essence,
• 1:28:20
  but I think in the interaction with others and the reflection
• 1:28:24
  points that happen...
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: We also learn about our essence, about our expression.
• 1:28:32
  There's that group flow experience that is really important and
• 1:28:40
  gives us a lot more
• 1:28:42
  access to different types of data than if we're just
• 1:28:44
  experiencing ourselves without
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: any reflection points.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_00: I like the notion of revelation,
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_00: that the interaction with the other reveals me,
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_00: it reveals something of me,
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_00: some part of my essence.
• 1:29:12
  I still want to remove the word value from the equation,
• 1:29:16
  because otherwise...
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's not just... I'm not saying it's impossible.
• 1:29:24
  And in a certain sense,
• 1:29:29
  this stuff is inevitable sooner or later,
• 1:29:32
  but it's not that easy.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_00: It requires...
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're like getting out of this,
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_00: breaking out of this shell of conditioning that my self-worth
• 1:29:48
  is equal to how i'm seen by the others it requires the
• 1:29:58
  descendants into the
• 1:30:00
  darkness to breaking free from the value requires learning to
• 1:30:11
  be like to be without
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_00: value first
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_01: By the way,
• 1:30:18
  I may seem like I'm in the camp of people that are still
• 1:30:22
  holding on to these terms,
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_01: but I certainly am not.
• 1:30:25
  I'm just trying to create an even field as we are exploring
• 1:30:29
  something that's quite complicated.
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I am also for, like, can we just get rid of value and self-worth?
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because...
• 1:30:40
  they do seem in a way to actually create shells rather than
• 1:30:44
  help us to really
• 1:30:46
  expand into our being and yet again because it's so it's such a
• 1:30:54
  big and core topic
• 1:30:56
  and it's it and and we don't even have new words we might have
• 1:30:59
  to create new words
• 1:31:01
  for some of these things um we i still want to have this
• 1:31:05
  conversation from the
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_01: perspective of can it be a yes and
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_01: the exploration.
• 1:31:20
  Yeah,
• 1:31:21
  I'm definitely for yes,
• 1:31:23
  and because now maybe it's time to conclude now.
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Don't wrap up.
• 1:31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking that at the end,
• 1:31:37
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 1:31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to hold on to the value and to the things that
• 1:31:49
  are valuable to me and be very intentional about expressing
• 1:32:03
  their value because you
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_00: know that means a lot to me and so
• 1:32:19
  there these things are valuable to me i'm gonna use different
• 1:32:27
  tactics also to
• 1:32:31
  convince some people that those are super valuable things i may
• 1:32:38
  manipulate i may
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_00: cry
• 1:32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can expect anything from me.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: That comes out loud and clear.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, loud and clear.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Ira, what would you like to share as we wrap up?
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot to process.
• 1:33:14
  I agree with Yulia that going back to my initial perception of
• 1:33:23
  value as expansion
• 1:33:25
  SPEAKER_00: of beauty,
• 1:33:26
  I agree that I wouldn't like to get rid of this aspect of value
• 1:33:36
  in the world.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing I have clear for myself,
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_00: at least from this conversation,
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_00: that there is no such thing as inherent value.
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And hence,
• 1:33:55
  I just need to forget to look for my inherent value and just
• 1:34:02
  learn to be without
• 1:34:04
  SPEAKER_00: value.
• 1:34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got learn to be without value from Ira.
• 1:34:10
  We've got I will I will manipulate and cry them into submission
• 1:34:16
  so they can accept
• 1:34:18
  SPEAKER_01: the things are the things I think are valuable are really,
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_01: truly valuable.
• 1:34:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we have from Yula.
• 1:34:25
  And I would like to maybe sum up by saying that maybe the real
• 1:34:32
  question is not
• 1:34:33
  SPEAKER_01: whether,
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_01: do I have value,
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe what is value when I stop measuring it?
• 1:34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe value lives where presence and reflection meet.
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_01: that's where the revealing aspect of it would fall,
• 1:34:58
  where we're in touch with our essence and the relationship with
• 1:35:01
  the world and other
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_01: beings.
• 1:35:13
  And I would like for us to come up with new language once we
• 1:35:17
  get a good sense of what is it like
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_01: if value is expressed as something other than measurement.
• 1:35:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is it then?
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's the felt sense?
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's the energy?
• 1:35:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are the aspects?
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_01: What are we looking for?
• 1:35:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's the experience of it?
• 1:35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this was obviously just a dip of the toe into a vast
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_01: ocean around a topic that is so important and so deep and so relevant.
• 1:35:54
  And hopefully we will come back together and have more
• 1:35:57
  discussions around this as
• 1:35:58
  we explore this more and deeper and maybe come together and
• 1:36:02
  share what our
• 1:36:03
  SPEAKER_01: individual experiments are like.
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like Yula,
• 1:36:06
  maybe you could share with us when you've converted some people
• 1:36:09
  and Yula can share
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_01: with us what's happened when she's lived without value.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like what has that life turned out like?
• 1:36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And anyone listening, please share with us what came up for you.
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you stand on this topic?
• 1:36:30
  Maybe share something that could be an interesting reflection
• 1:36:35
  point for all of us.
• 1:36:36
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And for now, we wish you a fair farewell.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Adieu.
• 1:36:45
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk to you in the next episode.
• 1:36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 1:36:51
  SPEAKER_00: How was it for you?
• 1:36:53
  We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
• 1:36:58
  the better off we all are.
• 1:37:00
  SPEAKER_00: More connected, more creative, more alive.
• 1:37:04
  SPEAKER_00: So let's expand the field.
• 1:37:06
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• 1:37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Share it with a friend, leave a comment or give us a rating.
• 1:37:17
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• 1:37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do subscribe so you'll know when the next experiment comes out.
• 1:37:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can also connect with us on our Life & Flow Group Substack.
• 1:37:27
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let's keep flowing together.