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Overcome your fears and insecurities with shadow work #26 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world needs free therapy. Hey, I'm Ben.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm Kevin. And welcome to Free Therapy. Every week,
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Ben and I sit down with the different therapists to
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  Speaker 2: talk about the stuff that everyone is struggling with, but
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  Speaker 2: nobody's saying out loud.
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  Speaker 3: This week, we brought in expert coach Kristen Sargent to
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  Speaker 3: talk about shadow work. She studied under the legendary therapist
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  Speaker 3: Phil Stutz. And if you don't know who Phil Stutz is,
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  Speaker 3: He was Jonah Hill's therapist. They made an amazing documentary
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  Speaker 3: on it.
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  Speaker 2: Amazing therapist.
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  Speaker 1: You have to go see it.
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  Speaker 2: His practice is all about teaching tools. So if you
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  Speaker 2: want actionable, tangible tools, this is the stuff him and
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  Speaker 2: Kristen teach.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And Kristen introduces us to Carl Jung's concept of
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  Speaker 3: the shadow and explains how shadow work can help you
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  Speaker 3: move beyond the patterns holding you back and how to
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  Speaker 3: build confidence to go after what you actually want in
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  Speaker 3: this life.
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  Speaker 2: Kristen has some amazing frameworks that we learned from. We
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  Speaker 2: hope you enjoy the show.
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  Speaker 4: There's a tool that my mentor Phil Stutz created called
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  Speaker 4: the threefold process. And what you do is once you
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  Speaker 4: have a relationship, a way to relate to your shadow,
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  Speaker 4: you basically, and so what I'll do, I'll just demonstrate
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  Speaker 4: with myself. I see you. We belong to each other.
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  Speaker 4: And I know how good you are and I know
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  Speaker 4: how much you care and how hard you try and
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  Speaker 4: that's enough for me. And so long as we use
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  Speaker 4: this experience we're about to have in the material world,
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  Speaker 4: As an opportunity to grow our relationship and our bond
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  Speaker 4: by staying connected before, during, and after, I promise to
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  Speaker 4: consider it a victory and a success, independent of what happens.
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  Speaker 4: Whether Kevin and Ben like me, whether I'm funny, whether
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  Speaker 4: the stories come out the right way, that is not
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  Speaker 4: the point. That'll be gravy, and that'll happen as a
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  Speaker 4: function of us staying together, our partnership. So I promise
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  Speaker 4: you that, that no matter what happens, no matter what
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  Speaker 4: the result or the outcome, we're forever. We don't measure
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  Speaker 4: our relationship based on outside wins or fails. And I
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  Speaker 4: love you, and let's go have fun.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to free therapy, Kristen Sargent.
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  Speaker 4: There it is.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, guys.
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  Speaker 2: That was so beautiful.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Can you explain what a shadow is? Like what that
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  Speaker 2: means to you?
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: I love what you just guided us through in it.
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  Speaker 4: You know, our shadow is the part of us. And
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  Speaker 4: spoiler alert, we have more than one shadow. But to
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  Speaker 4: make it as simple as possible, our shadow is the
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  Speaker 4: part of us that we avoid. We deny, we suppress,
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  Speaker 4: reject because we're ashamed of it or we're afraid of it.
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  Speaker 4: So we're afraid. We hide it from ourselves and from
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  Speaker 4: the world basically because we assume that if we expose it,
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  Speaker 4: we'll incur judgment, rejection, punishment at worst, all kinds of things.
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  Speaker 4: So it's the vulnerable part of us. It's the part.
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  Speaker 4: It's kind of everything we wish we weren't, but we are.
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  Speaker 4: And here's a really important point. Everybody has a shadow.
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  Speaker 4: No matter how much or little trauma, you don't have
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  Speaker 4: to have endured trauma to have a shadow. A shadow
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  Speaker 4: is a natural part of being human and the human experience. Why?
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  Speaker 4: Because we all encounter experiences as we grow up and
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  Speaker 4: develop that are either too painful, confusing, or overwhelming to
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  Speaker 4: process and manage in real time. So all of us,
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  Speaker 4: in order to survive, we bury all that stuff because
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  Speaker 4: we have to keep moving on and marching forward. And
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  Speaker 4: so whatever is too big, often painful, but sometimes it's
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  Speaker 4: just confusing or unmanageable in some other way, gets pushed
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  Speaker 4: into like the storage depot of the unconscious and a
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  Speaker 4: separate self forms, an alter ego self forms to carry
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  Speaker 4: that content that we We don't have enough tools to
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  Speaker 4: process and we have no frame of reference. And again,
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  Speaker 4: we just have to keep marching forward. But the thing is,
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  Speaker 4: that part doesn't go away. We move on as if
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  Speaker 4: the thing didn't happen. But it also develops almost like
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  Speaker 4: on its own timeline. It has a story, a point
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  Speaker 4: of view, actually consciousness and intelligence of its own.
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  Speaker 2: So it's like a part of you that was created
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  Speaker 2: at a certain point in your life, usually childhood?
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  Speaker 4: Often childhood, but shadows can get created at any juncture. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And then while you as a person continue to grow
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  Speaker 2: and change and have new experiences, this part of you
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  Speaker 2: also based on a, is it like based on a
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  Speaker 2: core belief that it was made at that time?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: It's kind of like a whole bunch of things happen
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  Speaker 4: in that moment and we don't know that we're doing it.
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  Speaker 4: It's an unconscious splitting mechanism.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And yeah, all these stories and impressions and we draw
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  Speaker 4: conclusions about ourselves. I failed, you know, math in the
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  Speaker 4: 10th grade. I'm dumb. That could cause a really painful
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  Speaker 4: shadow for somebody. I mean, more obvious shadow would be
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  Speaker 4: like I was abused or neglected and therefore I don't
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  Speaker 4: believe I'm worthy. But shadow can form just as easily
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  Speaker 4: from something much more benign but painful. And what I
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  Speaker 4: love about the work is it's actually where we're all
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  Speaker 4: the same. We all know that experience of falling out
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  Speaker 4: of human warmth, belonging, connection. We know what it's like
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  Speaker 4: to not belong. And that part of us, our shadow
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  Speaker 4: is the part of us that carries that experience.
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  Speaker 3: I guess everyone maybe is like, oh, I definitely have
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  Speaker 3: a lot of shadows, right? Like if you're, as you
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  Speaker 3: get older, how do shadows start to like show up?
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  Speaker 3: Like what are some signs that you're like, oh, that's
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  Speaker 3: actually my shadow? Like what's a way for someone to
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  Speaker 3: start developing and looking for them? Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, some of the most common kind of shadowy
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  Speaker 4: presentations are not being able to take risk or put
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  Speaker 4: yourself out into the world. So, and that can present
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  Speaker 4: again as like, I don't know how to say hard
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  Speaker 4: things to people. Or it could be, I don't go
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  Speaker 4: out on the date, like I never put myself out there.
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  Speaker 4: Or I don't ask for the raise or Raise my
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  Speaker 4: hand at the meeting. So like holding oneself back, that
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  Speaker 4: kind of shame and inferiority, not putting yourself out, not
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  Speaker 4: being able to take risks. Boundaries. People can't say no.
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  Speaker 4: They say yes. You know that one?
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  Speaker 2: One hand raised for Ben.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, we'll come back to that. We can work on that.
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  Speaker 2: Just raise our hand every time.
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  Speaker 4: The first one.
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  Speaker 2: Was me, by the way, so I'll take the first one.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, who doesn't relate to all this stuff,
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  Speaker 4: you know? Say yes when you mean no. There's shadow there.
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  Speaker 4: There's a reason. People-pleasing is another iteration of boundaries, right?
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  Speaker 2: As a whole?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, like putting other people in other things, managing other
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  Speaker 4: people's emotions and experiences versus being able to actually know
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  Speaker 4: and own your own experience and put yourself first. That's
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  Speaker 4: very common related to shadow. procrastination and being blocked and
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  Speaker 4: stuck or even writer's block. Like often that's shadow related,
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  Speaker 4: meaning there's a part of you that is so afraid
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  Speaker 4: to be seen that it literally hijacks the resources to
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  Speaker 4: move forward. So that can be, I mean, anxiety, depression,
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  Speaker 4: those are more obvious.
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  Speaker 3: Right. Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So now I love this. So, so you have all
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  Speaker 2: these different things, procrastination and anxiety, depression, or people pleasing, or,
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  Speaker 2: you know, when do these things are in play and
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  Speaker 2: sort of what is happening when you go through that process.
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  Speaker 2: You have the shadow, your shadow, which was that girl
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  Speaker 2: who wants to be liked, I think you said, and
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  Speaker 2: wants to do something good. What are you doing that's
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  Speaker 2: positive or that you're bringing her into this conversation before
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  Speaker 2: you walk into it?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm making her safe. But to go back to
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  Speaker 4: the first part of your question, When the shadow is unconscious,
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  Speaker 4: when we don't know our shadow, which we're all avoiding
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  Speaker 4: it without knowing it. To me, that's kind of like
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  Speaker 4: the saddest part of shadow work is nobody ever taught
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  Speaker 4: me that I had this other part of me and
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  Speaker 4: how to reach it and how to relate to it
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  Speaker 4: and work with it so that I'm not unwittingly bringing
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  Speaker 4: my past into the present. That's what we're doing when
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  Speaker 4: we don't know our shadow. Our shadow, in a handful
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  Speaker 4: of ways, sabotages us. There are three main ways. One
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  Speaker 4: is you just feel bad. You're kind of like, something's
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  Speaker 4: wrong with me or imposter syndrome or like low-grade sense
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  Speaker 4: of shame or inferiority. That's an unconscious shadow. The second
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  Speaker 4: way is that to fill that hole, we try to
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  Speaker 4: compensate for it with stuff in the material world. So
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  Speaker 4: like we're trying to fill a hole inside of us
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  Speaker 4: with things, whether it's attention or drugs or relationship or
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  Speaker 4: possessions or titles or whatever. But nothing can compensate for
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  Speaker 4: that hole. Only we can fill that hole. The other
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  Speaker 4: way is the shadow takes over. So an unconscious shadow
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  Speaker 4: drives our perception of reality, perception, like neural pathways, and
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  Speaker 4: nervous system. So we're doing this. And so that's kind of-
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  Speaker 4: It's like.
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  Speaker 2: Someone getting hijacked.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a hijack.
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  Speaker 2: It's like a complete hijack.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you don't really know. It's like, I mean,
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  Speaker 4: I think people will relate to it. It's like a subconscious,
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  Speaker 4: something reaches up from inside and you act out or
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  Speaker 4: you behave in a way that is, you know, uncharacteristic
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  Speaker 4: of you or you're paralyzed and you can't move forward.
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  Speaker 4: And those are like those can all be worked with
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  Speaker 4: as shadows. So what I did when I did that
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  Speaker 4: exercise is knowing intimately the part of me that is
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  Speaker 4: going to potentially get activated by coming in and just
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  Speaker 4: liking you guys and wanting to do a good job and,
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  Speaker 4: you know, whatever, get it done. I made it safe
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  Speaker 4: beforehand for her to just be herself by making that
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  Speaker 4: promise that like, it doesn't, it's not that important. Like
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  Speaker 4: we can just be ourselves and tell the truth. And really,
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  Speaker 4: if we have each other, and you practice this, this
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  Speaker 4: is like software. It's a new set of neural pathways
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  Speaker 4: and muscles. It's like, because most of us don't have
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  Speaker 4: our center of gravity inside of ourself, right? We're trained
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  Speaker 4: in this world to be other-centric, meaning like achieve this,
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  Speaker 4: get that. You're good if you have that. And so
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  Speaker 4: to reclaim our center, create inner authority- but also secure
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  Speaker 4: attachment to ourselves requires working with the part in an
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  Speaker 4: active way, not just talking about it, because that doesn't
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  Speaker 4: really change anything. So I'm going into that point, you know,
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: that we talked a little bit about why, like, in
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  Speaker 4: my experience, the way I was trained as a therapist is,
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  Speaker 4: you know, you can understand why you are how you are,
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  Speaker 4: but that doesn't change anything. Insight is good. It's really valuable.
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  Speaker 4: And it does bring clarity. But insight has to be
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  Speaker 4: married to present day application and redoing the primitive assumptions
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  Speaker 4: that you didn't even know you were carrying. Now, you
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  Speaker 4: got to redo it now. So when you go on
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  Speaker 4: the date, you bring the part of yourself that you're
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  Speaker 4: most likely, if you don't do it different in your head,
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  Speaker 4: you're going to hide that part. You're going to be like,
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  Speaker 4: this is who I really am. And that's not me.
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  Speaker 4: And again, you're not going to be saying that. But
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  Speaker 4: what's really weird is when you hide any parts of yourself,
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  Speaker 4: you're actually withholding. So you're not the most generous, present,
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  Speaker 4: whole version of yourself. And the most whole version of
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  Speaker 4: you is the most authentic, but magnetic. So people are
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  Speaker 4: getting in their own way of fulfilling their potential because
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  Speaker 4: they're hiding from themselves. And when we change that, thank
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  Speaker 4: God there are such incredible, exciting openings that happen because
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  Speaker 4: The work does take work. Like you have to practice it.
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  Speaker 3: I think now it's easier than before because I think
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  Speaker 3: of the destructive behaviors that the shadows actually messed up
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  Speaker 3: for me.
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  Speaker 1: Like not being able to set boundaries. I would resent people. Right.
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  Speaker 3: Or because I want to give so much that I
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  Speaker 3: would stop taking care of myself.
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  Speaker 1: Whatever happened in a relationship, like things just blew up
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  Speaker 1: in my face.
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  Speaker 3: And that's the only way I could learn what the
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  Speaker 3: lesson was by people actually by something happening. And I
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  Speaker 3: was like, oh, where is that coming from? And it's like,
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  Speaker 3: I didn't really understand why it was happening. And then
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  Speaker 3: I started to kind of look into, oh, I think
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  Speaker 3: that's a shadow. I don't know if I was like
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  Speaker 3: using that.
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  Speaker 1: Term at the time, but I was like, this is
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  Speaker 1: a part of me that I don't like. I'm like
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  Speaker 1: ashamed of this.
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  Speaker 3: I don't understand this that well. And then I started
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  Speaker 3: to understand it. And I think what's, you bring up
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  Speaker 3: such a good point of just like bringing it into awareness.
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  Speaker 3: Like even today I have a hard time with boundaries
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  Speaker 3: and I still feel activated like in relationship with anybody.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, this is my, this is my
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  Speaker 3: boundaries thing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: You were saying this, you have so much evidence. We all,
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  Speaker 2: we have so much evidence working in favor of like
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  Speaker 2: the person we want to be and in opposition to
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  Speaker 2: our shadow and the, and the story that that shadow created.
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  Speaker 2: And maybe it's one experience that we had at one
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  Speaker 2: moment and not, and when you're nine years old or
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  Speaker 2: a handful of experiences or repetitive experiences. But now, like
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  Speaker 2: if this were a program, if this was an operating system,
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  Speaker 2: you would be able to rewrite like OS systems.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And OS 33 or 36 would be like, yeah, that's not,
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  Speaker 2: we're not operating on that system anymore.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Why is it so hard for us to operate on
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  Speaker 2: the new system?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: When we have the evidence.
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  Speaker 4: Well, you're right. You can rewrite it. So that's the
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  Speaker 4: good news is you can rewrite the OS and the software.
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  Speaker 4: But it's all because we have neural plasticity. So that's real.
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  Speaker 4: Like that's the best news of all is that we
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  Speaker 4: can absolutely change. However, that which... We reject and we
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  Speaker 4: refuse to know about ourselves. We, it won't, it like
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  Speaker 4: holds on. And those things that we talked about earlier,
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  Speaker 4: like it takes us over, it sabotages us. All of
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  Speaker 4: that is to get our attention. So until we kind of,
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  Speaker 4: I call it redeem the shadow, like take our own
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  Speaker 4: side and have the courage to go look at. And
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: if you're stuck or you're repeating a pattern, there's a
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  Speaker 4: shadow there. And what I love about this work, and again,
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I give some.
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  Speaker 1: Excuse that again.
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  Speaker 2: If you're stuck and repeating a pattern, there's a shadow there.
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  Speaker 4: For sure. If you're suffering in some kind of way,
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  Speaker 4: there's something primitive in the past that needs attention.
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  Speaker 2: And what would you say to someone who says, I'm stuck.
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  Speaker 2: This just keeps happening to me. There's a shadow there.
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  Speaker 2: How do they find out what that shadow is?
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  Speaker 4: So I would get them to talk about you know,
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  Speaker 4: whatever the stuckness is or the trigger and how they feel,
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: like the helplessness they feel, whatever. I'd gather information. I'd
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  Speaker 4: collect data about what that stuckness, you know, feels like
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  Speaker 4: in them.
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  Speaker 2: What is the process like if they're listening right now
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  Speaker 2: and they're like, I feel stuck in my love life? Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So the example would be, I can't open up.
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  Speaker 2: Let's say, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I would ask them about their fear about opening up.
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  Speaker 4: Was there a time when they opened up and, you know,
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  Speaker 4: it didn't go well? what is the fear? Like, what
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: are they, what is that? And I try to drill
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  Speaker 4: down into like kind of what the, what is the
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: worst that could happen? So we're always kind of just
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: trying to massage out, you know, what, what the set
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: of fears and feelings is related to whatever that trigger
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  Speaker 4: or block or stuckness is. So, you know, when you did,
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: when the, when was the last time you did express yourself?
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  Speaker 4: What happened? Like that's coming from somewhere. So my job
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  Speaker 4: is to or somebody listening in is to be curious about,
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  Speaker 4: like slow down and get curious. What do I feel?
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  Speaker 4: What feelings do I have that are related to this
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  Speaker 4: blockage of mine? And if you, here's the thing, attention
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  Speaker 4: is generative. We find what we're looking for. If you
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  Speaker 4: ask the questions, the information is there. There's a reason
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  Speaker 4: someone in this hypothetical scenario is afraid to express themselves.
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  Speaker 4: We didn't come in that way. So something was a
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  Speaker 4: shaping experience somewhere along the line. And again, the way
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  Speaker 4: we get to what the shadow is, is by being
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  Speaker 4: honest with ourselves about the feelings and the fear. Sometimes
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  Speaker 4: what I do with people like a really kind of
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: go-to way to find the shadow is to work with
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  Speaker 4: something that's triggering in the present tense. So, you know,
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: there's like your mean boss or your difficult kid or
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: your partner, you know, like the relationship problem. And like
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: you really bring up what are the feelings that are
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: activated in you when you're triggered and you let that
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  Speaker 4: all rise up. You hold space for it. You witness it.
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  Speaker 4: And then you push it outside yourself and you have
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: to you confidently know there's a shadow there. Who are you?
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  Speaker 4: You give it a face form figure of its own.
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  Speaker 4: Or you let it kind of coalesce. It'll show itself
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  Speaker 4: to you if you bring real sincere curiosity.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Does that face form figure have to be a part
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: of you from a time in your life?
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: Great question.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: It often is, but it does not have to be.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: Sometimes people see actually an inanimate object. Sometimes people see
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: a form, a human that isn't them. Also, the psyche,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: this is kind of a good thing for me to say,
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: the unconscious, which is what we're accessing. where the shadow
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: lives is in the unconscious, is very metaphorical and symbolic.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: And so sometimes where we carry these archetypes, like sometimes
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: I've encountered, let me just say, so many like Jabba
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: the Hutt shadows or vixens or cowboys or Ursula from
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: The Little Mermaid, like they're archetypes that encapsulate parts of
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: us that we don't want to admit are us. And
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: so Yeah, that's a great question. It doesn't have to
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: look like you. So often if I'm working with somebody
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: who's never looked inside of themselves, I'll just have them
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: do very simply like, you know, K, what was your
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: experience like? You know, that would be you and a
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: colon and write a question and then shadow colon and
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: just free write and listen and let yourself learn to
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: listen to your unconscious. You know, some people, if you
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: don't lift your hand off the page, like you're learning,
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: you're developing a muscle. for asking and listening, call and response.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: It works if you show up to it. The most
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: common thing I get in the beginning from people is like,
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: but how do I know if that's me or my
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: shadow talking? In the beginning, you won't. It'll be a
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: little bit foggy. So you just do it anyway and
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: you act as if your shadow is talking to you.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: If you do it enough, one thing I like to
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: emphasize is this is more about remembering the shadow than
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: spending lots of time Time is actually not linear in
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: the unconscious, so the shadow cares more about effort, like
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: sincere effort and consistency, not being forgotten, right? And if
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: you've already kind of done some of that work that
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: you guys have done, then it's more about bringing the
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: past tense self, the shadow, into the present wherever the
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: stuckness is happening or wherever somebody's given you a reflection
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: about yourself. There's a part of me that like is
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: running my program. Let me try to do it differently
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: and see what happens. And, you know, we know the
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: end of the story. Like 99 times out of 100,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: our worst fears do not materialize. And not only that,
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: so much more becomes possible that we had no idea
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: we were blocking ourselves from. So like whatever that is that, again,
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: you just decided, oh, polish. We're going polish. Like you're
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: costing him, but you're actually costing yourself things that you're
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: in their micro little moves and decisions. So it's really interesting.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: There's a tool that Phil created called the Science of
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: Reality where you keep a log when you're doing this
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: with your shadow. And there are three columns there. So
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: the left column, you track, like, what was the risk
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: I took? I said something I wasn't going to share,
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: a story I told this girl, random. You know, like,
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: I did that. You log it. In the middle column,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: you write down all of your worst fears about what
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: could happen. You can do this in advance. You can
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: do it retroactively. But that's where you, like, kind of vomit. Like,
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: you go drama. Like, you go all the way. Like,
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: I'm going to be rejected. She'll post about it and
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: other people will find out. Like, whatever is really there, like,
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: the worst that could happen, what are my worst fears?
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: And then in the third column, you track what actually happens.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: And when you collect that data long enough, you know,
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: the ego likes data. It's really interesting because, you know,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: the second and the third column never match.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: They don't. Right.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: You actually build evidence.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: And you build evidence and mostly life actually expands is
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: what happens.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: On your website, you said something about just like figuring
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: out why people operate the way they operate. And I
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: think that's kind of where you're where you like get
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: into the shadow.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: But I wonder, like, how can.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: The everyday person maybe just starts to like understand when
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: that operating system is not working for them but it
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: started working against them when maybe they're like going after
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: something they think they want because someone told them they
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: need it versus actually just doing what they want and
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: maybe being like stuck like in a hamster wheel of
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: life or for me is.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Like I always thought that I had to.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Live my life a certain way because of what I
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: read what I saw what I was told and then
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: I realized that like I could curate the world for
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: what I want and the moment I realized that I
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: could make the world something for me. It actually empowered
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: me to not live the life that I saw online
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: that other people had. And so I wonder if there's
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: just like tools or ways that we can explore that.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: It's such a good question. I mean, one key way
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: is that you're in your head in negativity a lot
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: of the time. So like when we're not truly healthy,
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: we've got a lot of negativity firing all the time.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: Like a big inner critic in our work, Phil's name
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: for it is Part X. So this is a little
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: inside baseball theoretical, but basically we have a shadow, the
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: part of us that fears that we're not enough or
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: we're too much or we're inadequate or a loser or whatever.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: But then we have a different part of us that
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: weaponizes that against us and tells us that's who we are.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: That's part X. So often, like people aren't really aware
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: that they're living a life. I'm going to say a
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: new term now, like based on external motivation versus intrinsic motivation.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: You're talking about living your life from the inside out.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: And that's usually where people come to me is that
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: their life doesn't match. Their outside life doesn't match the inside.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: They did all the things, you know, and they're not happy. So,
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's a big indicator that your operating program
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: isn't working. Like, yeah, you went to Harvard and, you know,
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: you've got 2.5 kids or you're, you know, good looking
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: and making a lot of money, but you don't feel good. Like,
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: that's an indicator that something wants attention. I love the
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: saying pain pushes, vision pulls. So you can start to
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: get curious about it proactively.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Pain pushes, vision pulls.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: So like how do you become, wake up basically? Like
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: usually midlife people wake up, right? Like, oh, I didn't
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: even know there was another option. I just did all
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: the things I was told to do or I was
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: supposed to do or culture and society said would make
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: me a good person or happy, you know, and midlife
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: tends to challenge that operating program. But also for people
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: who are younger, I mean, I think conversations like these
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: start to, you know, and people being vulnerable and just
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: admitting out loud, like, you know, I didn't even know. And,
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: you know, it's possible to think these thoughts and ask
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: these questions. And where might I be lying to myself,
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: betraying myself, abandoning myself or denying myself? that I just
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: haven't been willing to look at. Again, if we ask,
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: we get answers. If we want to look, our subconscious
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: is a partner to us. So we might be living
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: a performative life or a performative self, a safe self,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: and be fine with that, kind of like you with Paulus.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: You're like, I'm cool. Like, this is working for me.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: But if you start asking the other dimension of your intelligence,
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: I always kind of say, like, yeah, you could live
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: just using your right side of your body, a right
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: leg and a right arm, but like, why not have
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: a left arm and a left leg? Like you would
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: get a lot more out of your life. Like, so
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: there's a whole other dimension of your intelligence that lives
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: in your unconscious. And if you start asking and getting curious,
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: you will not, you'll either get insight, inspiration. You know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: I call it the way the unconscious communicates the eyes,
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: like the letter I, Instinct, insight, intuition, inspiration, images, ideas,
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: you know, those are all how the unconscious speaks. And
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: like sometimes it comes up from out of us. You
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: get an idea. But oftentimes, this is a woo way
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: of saying it, but because we live in a very
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: responsive reciprocal universe that gives us a lot of feedback,
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: we just don't realize a lot of what we're experiencing
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: is what we're thinking and putting out into the world.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: If you start asking these questions, they'll come out of
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: the woodwork. You'll watch a movie that is your story.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: So how am I, just ask that question. How am I,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: are there any ways that I'm betraying, abandoning, denying myself?
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: It's funny because now I just want to go through
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: all of the things and do the experience, this process
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: of like, like with procrastination. I'm like, fuck, I procrastinate
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: so much on things. And now am I curious, what
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: is the shadow in me that is Procrastinating. So I
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: just want to make sure I'm getting this. With procrastination,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: because a lot of people deal with this.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Like with procrastination, is it there is a part of
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: you that is driving the car? Yeah.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: Driving behavior.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Driving behavior.
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: And perception.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: And so let me- That turns into procrastination.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Because you're avoiding that person, that part of you, instead
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: of inviting that part of you into the process.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: That's right. That's right.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: You're procrastinating versus if you were to invite that part
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: of you.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: You would be able to.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: You might become aware of like the what, like why
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: am I procrastinating? Let me say this. There are some
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: things that are just behaviors that we do have to
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: like exercise, you know, kind of will around. But when
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: patterns are like repeat and entrenched in a person and
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: you get curious about what the shadow is, what happens
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: is you tend to find that there is some internal
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: blockage and lever, honestly, that will unlock the energy, the resource,
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: the stamina, the courage, the clarity to make a different choice.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: It doesn't mean that you don't have to make that choice. Like,
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: I think food and diet can be a great example
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: of this. Like, if you have, I mean, so many
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: people have, you know, compromised relationships to food. We have
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: to eat three times a day, and it's a place
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: where we can exercise control, right? And like, So a
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: lot of people have a, you know, a compromised relationship
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: and they either force and jam themselves into like extreme
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: like programs and diets or they're like or they go
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: off or whatever. And when you get to know the
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: shadow beneath that and you heal and find again, like
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: what is the part of me that gets triggered if
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: I feel fat or if I feel unattractive or if
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: I feel less than another dude out there? Like if
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: you start to get to know the shadow related to it,
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: what you gain is agency. Over the decision. Yeah.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I think that like. People are. I was always so afraid.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: To like move towards the things. That I was ashamed of.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: And then I realize now. That I just am looking
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: to find all of them. So I can just work
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: them out.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: And move forward.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Like give me everything now. Because I just want to like.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I want to know it all. And I feel like I'm. 36. Now.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So it's like. I feel like I've identified most of them.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And so now when they show up. Like okay cool.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: And I think. Most people don't even want to start.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: But I feel like once you start. It's just way easier.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Because then you can just. move along the line as
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: fast as possible. It takes a long time, but.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: Totally. And actually, it can actually take less time. So
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad you said that because, and this goes
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: to your question, I would say phase one of shadow
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: work is going and finding the parts that you've othered
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: inside of yourself, right? So, and that is like healing
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: and wholeness. And again, a lot of the part of
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: the work that you guys have done, you don't actually
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: have to like you know, sit in therapy for years,
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: you can just wait. Like, life is going to show
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: you and send you. so like it's going to trigger
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: you it's going to it just is and those are
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: always gateways to find your shadow and so then but
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: phase two of shadow work is about leveraging the partnership
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: the allyship that you develop with that unwanted part that
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: you've been unconsciously shoving into the back seat and taking
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: the titrated risk and action and partnering. So what happens
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: is like the shadow, when it got created, got kind
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: of frozen in time and you forgot it, but it
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: still has things it wants. So as you start to
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: communicate with the shadow, all this life force energy comes back.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: And it's like, if you start asking questions, it's going
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: to want you to move in the direction of your potential.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: That's what this partnership can yield. And so there's a
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: big focus of, you know, kind of how I like
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: to present the work and frame it because we're so,
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: it's such a drag to have to do the hard
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: part of the work, but the payoff isn't just you
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: feel better and healing and wholeness. It's you, this is
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: going to sound big, but this is like, again, I
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: so know this and believe this in my core. To me,
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: this work is the best insurance policy you can get.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: Some version of this, by the way, shadow work isn't
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: the only way to do this, but it's the best
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: insurance policy for getting to your deathbed without regret. Like,
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: I lived authentic and true to myself, right? So what's
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: the famous, what is it, Ralph Waldo Emerson? You know,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: their graves with their songs still in them, their song unsung. Like,
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: that's what most of life, you know, is made up
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: of for most people. And we know it. Like, we
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: know we're not doing the thing or taking the risk.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: And there's some quiet dream that's getting pushed off. One
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: more year, I'm going to, you know, ignore that. And so...
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: That's the real cost. But let me frame it in
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: the positive. Once you get going with these shadows, they
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: will ensure you're going to start partnering. And there's a
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: program for partnering with your shadow. And again, taking risk
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: in action with the part of you that actually carries
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: the blueprint for who you could be uninfluenced and compromised
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: by all the things that happen to us that create shadows.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: Your original self starts to come out and you're like,
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: And synchronicity and flow and doors opening again, we're creating
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: friction outside of ourselves that we don't even realize we
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: have a hand in creating. So the internal harmony starts
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: to translate to harmony and we are capable. And here's
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: the this is the last thing. Like then what happens
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: is like you're not running away from your past anymore.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: You're expanding in the direction of your potential. And guess what?
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: Life keeps serving up growth opportunities. You keep having- And
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: it never ends. That's the thing. While we're here, but
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: it gets so much more fun. Like life can either be, life,
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: we're never going to know what's happening, right? Like the
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: setup of the game, the game design is, we don't
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: know why we're here. We don't know how long we're
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: going to be here. We don't know when we're going
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: to die. We don't know how we're going to die.
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: So like, if that isn't scary and ambivalent and ambiguous,
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: that's hard for egos, but it can either feel like
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: painful and scary or Or it can feel like an adventure.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: And that's what I observe, like the amount of transformation
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: and change that becomes possible. And I'll just say one
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: more line is like, you know, I always say if
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: we allow it, our shadow will orchestrate pathways and possibilities
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: that we cannot perceive, let alone achieve with our ego alone.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth, we have a lot of homework to do, Kev.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: I'll come back.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Kristen, it was really nice to have you.
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: We really enjoyed the conversation.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. You guys are awesome.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: So much fun. To be continued, for sure.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: I would love it.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Lots of shadow work. Now there's four people in the room.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Two shadows each. Yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: No, there's six.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: There's six. Maybe like seven shadows. I have 17 shadows.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: I have a lot of shadows.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I have 17 shadows.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: The room is full.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: The room is full.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: We are packed. It's a party in here.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Fun.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: Thank you, guys.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the episode. We hope you loved it.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: So our goal is to get a million guys into
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: therapy with this show. And the biggest thing you could
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: do to support is leave us a five-star review on
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Apple or Spotify.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Kev and I are so passionate about these conversations.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: It makes such a big impact on the show and
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: it really helps us reach more people who need to
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: hear conversations like this.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: You can also watch the full show on YouTube with
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: videos so you can actually feel like you're in the
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: room with us getting therapy.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Because therapy is expensive.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: But our podcast is free. So go subscribe, follow, rate,
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: and review. And if you have any feedback on topics
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: you want us to cover, just shoot us a note
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: on Instagram.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.