Latest / eCommerce Podcast / How AI Influencers Are Eroding Trust & What Really Works Instead | Luke Yarnton

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How AI Influencers Are Eroding Trust & What Really Works Instead | Luke Yarnton · eCommerce Podcast

0:04
Wow.
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Hello, my name is Matt Edmundson and you are listening to the eCommerce Podcast.
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Yes, you are.
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Now.
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I've been an eCommerce-er since 2002, and these days I partner with
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eCommerce brands to help them grow, scale and exit their business.
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And if you'd like to know more about how that works and whether
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or not we could work together, just head over to the website.
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ecommerce-podcast.net.
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You'll find all kinds of amazing information there about
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what I do about this podcast.
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All the past episodes, all the information on guests like today's
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guest, it's all gonna be on there.
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The show notes, everything.
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Go to the website ecommerce-podcast.net.
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Now, today I am Jo.
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Joined, joined, get my words right.
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I am joined by the legendary Luke Yarnton.
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And we are gonna get into a conversation.
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But before I do that, let me give a quick shout out to, uh, feed Spot.
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They sent me an email.
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The other day, uh, Luke, you, you may or may not know this, uh, they
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sent, well, you won't know 'cause why would you get access to my email?
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Uh, they sent me an email with a list of the top 100 eCommerce podcasts.
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Uh, and this podcast is now number nine.
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So, uh, just wanted to say a big shout out.
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Big thank you to everyone that's got us, uh, to that place.
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Hope you get something out of it.
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And if you're new to the show, make sure you like, subscribe, and do
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all of that sort of good stuff.
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Because number nine's nice.
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But honestly, I need to be number one just saying, and I can
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only get there with your help.
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So, uh, do, do all that good stuff.
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But look, listen man, you uh, have a company called Brave.
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You do everything to do with influencers.
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And before we hit the record button you were talking about.
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Something which is, well, how did you phrase it?
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It is the most ridiculous idea that is currently out there
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where influencers are concerned.
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We all wanna know what it is.
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Let's jump into that.
1:54
Welcome to the show.
1:55
What's this ridiculous idea
1:56
Yeah, look, this is something that I'm, I'm quite passionate about, and you've
2:00
seen probably if you're paying attention to LinkedIn and, and those who are
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commenting about, uh, e-commerce on x slash Twitter, um, there seems to be this
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massive rise of people using AI agents to act as influencers to promote their brand.
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Um, so the idea is you've got this non-real person that's gonna be
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reading a script, uh, promoting the features of your product in the hope
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that you'll be able to trick some potential customers into believing
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that this is an authentic review.
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And this is someone who genuinely.
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Loves your brand.
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Look, I think that's the stupidest thing you can do as a brand.
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I think that's such a, such a, an insulting thing to do to your potential
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customers to try and, um, sort of false stage, some influencer activity that I,
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I just think it's, these are the sort of things that customers will remember.
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Um, and you build trust one post at a time.
2:56
And to go about it in this particular manner, I think is.
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Is very shortsighted and a little bit insulting to people who I'm
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sure there are people out there who do know and love these brands,
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who would be willing advocates of them and to, to use a non-real
3:10
human, I think is, uh, pretty silly.
3:14
It's an interesting one, isn't it?
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'cause I'm listening to you talk and I'm like, I, I don't
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UI clear, clear off the bat.
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I do not use an AI agent for my LinkedIn or for my content.
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Um, uh, but I do use AI to help me create content.
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Uh, I am very, very involved in the content that we create.
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Because I feel like I have to be, but I do use AI to help me craft and
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edit and critique content, you know?
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And even to do some of the research.
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What's interesting to me is I see people doing this and I, I have to question
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why I. So is it because they want to create content but they don't have time?
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Is it because they feel like they can shortcut the system and just do it easier?
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Um, uh, because they just wanna do it easier?
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I don't know.
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Um, but I, I agree with you.
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I think the fundamental thing about content is it has to be from you, right?
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I mean, it's, why would it not be?
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I mean, we can all go and read AI stuff.
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Why, why?
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So, I think it's how you're gonna differentiate yourself perhaps.
4:16
Exactly.
4:17
And look, I think they're sort of trying to tap into this market of social
4:20
currency where you get people talking about your brand and, and the whole idea
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of social currency is that it has some currency, it has some perceived value.
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Um, and by, by taking away the human element of it, you're just sort
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of like completely devaluing the currency that is social currency.
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And like to your earlier point, um, there are a bunch of really, really good tools
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out there that are new tools that will.
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Help you with the efficiency and help you with the execution of, uh, the content
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you wanna get out there, whether that's video content, um, there's some tools
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that help you chop up video content into some postal that is based on real human,
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uh, UGC that you might have in the mix.
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Or there's tools that help you write scripts and tools that help you schedule.
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Um.
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But to take away the actual sort of endorsement element of that, that comes
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from someone who has held your product in their hands or taken the supplement,
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um, I think destroys the entire idea of, of, of what's going on here, which
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sort of can sort of maybe lead us into this potentially, um, concerning future
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where, and we've seen this already, right?
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Where.
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The level of trust that a customer's gonna have in an advertisement or the level
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of trust they even have in these bigger sort of macro influences is continually
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decreasing year after year after year.
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And you're left with a little bit of trust remaining at these lower level,
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authentic, genuine influences that have a huge amount of respect for their
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audience and will only post and endorse things that they truly believe in.
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Um, so I think this is just gonna further exacerbate that destruction of trust.
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If you do use these, uh, funny AI based influences that you'll
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feed an AI script into, um, for some sort of pretend endorsement.
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I don't even know the way to like
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Yeah.
6:06
No, it's, it's, it's a, it is a fair point and I, I, I totally agree.
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We, we've, we've been quite clear, I think as a company on what we will and won't use
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AI and automation, AI and AI agents for some of it's, you know, some of the stuff
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coming out is really clever, like you say.
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And I, I mean, you mentioned tools, and I'll come back to that because I'm
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curious to know what you would recommend.
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Um, but it's interesting you circle around to this idea of trust.
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Mm-hmm.
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And how trust is the one thing that we need, but it's the one
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thing which feels like it's getting harder and harder to get.
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Um, and so I watch, you know, brands use, um, big influencers
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to promote a product or a brand.
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You just, you, you know, full well, there is no way in God's green
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earth they're using that product.
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Right?
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They're just, they're just not, it just, it doesn't make any kind of sense to me.
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There's no authenticity.
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You just got a famous person to, and yes, that might work in traditional
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advertisement and good on you.
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Um, but you are right about this element of trust, which is why I'm
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guessing, Luke, I mean, we've, we, we've talked about this a bit on the
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show over the, over the years, but, which is why I'm guessing the, the nano
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influencers, the micro influencers.
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People are saying these are better for your brand because actually these, these
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have a better trust relationship with the, the people that they're connected to.
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And as long as they genuinely like what you do,
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Mm-hmm.
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um, and they are connected to the brand, like I'm seeing more and more
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people actually work with influencers who actually buy their product.
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Um, rather than just giving free product out to a bunch of influencers
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and then hoping that they do a good, you know, better UGC, um.
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It seems that's that's a good way to sort of build and maintain trust.
7:58
Yeah, exactly.
7:59
Look, I think people, people are smartening up to the way
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the influencer world works.
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Um, in that the days, or at least just the, the, the original strategy
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was as a brand, I'm gonna find the biggest possible influencer.
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Who I can pay an appropriate amount of money to, to post about me on their
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Instagram, just one photo of them drinking my drink or taking my supplement
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or working out in my workout gear.
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That'll be enough.
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Um, and it'll be a pay for post and you'll pay $5,000 and there'll be no
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performance aspect to that at all.
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And it'll be a one and done.
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Um, and purely based on existing.
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In their halo.
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Um, I too will be a great brand that, that seems to be on the out now where
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people are looking for a more of an always on consistent, maybe slightly
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more performance led approach where they are tapping into more of these
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sort of lower level influences and, and creators, um, that have a stronger
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connection with their audience.
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Um, that will.
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Provides sort of more of a genuine connection and you are hitting
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that, that right audience group.
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I think an important point to add here is that like before we were doing what
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we're doing now as a company, um, we built out a fully, um, fleshed out
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affiliate platform where we would help brands get links, referral links in the
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hands of these 1 million to 2 million follow account, um, influencers, as
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well as these micro influencers, nano influencers that have sort of closer to
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that 5,000 to 15,000, uh, follow account.
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Um, like even the best influencer that had more than, uh, 1 million,
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2 million followers would never outperform the median nano influencer.
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That's
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Um, so they consistently flopped.
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They, they don't have that ability to, uh, to generate genuine transaction
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and purchases off the back of their suggestion the majority of the time.
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I'm sure there are some exceptions to that.
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Um, but the level of trust that these nano influencers
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hold is significantly stronger.
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So that's sort of what's pulled us into what we're doing now is
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because of that previous experience with the affiliate platform.
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We know that if a brand can get an influencer with 5,000 followers posting
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about them organically, um, that's a pretty cool outcome for a brand.
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So how do we get to an influencer that organically loves this brand, posting
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about them more quickly, uh, in an organic sort of serendipitous way.
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That's a pretty cool unlock.
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Um, so that's kind of how we've got to the, the route that we're on now and
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we're unlocking a bunch of value for the brands that we are working with here.
10:39
That's really fascinating.
10:40
Um, I, and so you're, you've got the data to prove what
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everybody else knows is true.
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Is that actually the, yes.
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The, the large influencers have access to, so you've got one person who has
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access to a big audience, but if you've got a bunch of smaller influencers and
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collectively have that, they have the same size audience, the smaller influencers
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are gonna outperform the larger ones just.
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Significantly.
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By massive numbers.
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It's like I, I was consistently time and time again surprised by just
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how inefficient and how disconnected audiences are to these bigger macro, 1
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million follower count plus influencers.
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Um.
11:18
No, that's fair enough.
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I guess that's why they're all starting their own brands, aren't they?
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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And look, what they are still good for is some top of funnel awareness,
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and for some potentially you'll get some branding benefits from
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Mm.
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to them.
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Um, but if in, in this day and age, the brands tend to be, most, most brands tend
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to be slightly more performance focused.
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Um, so if you want genuine transactions, um, and genuine
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transactions relatively quickly, um.
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That's not the route you want to be going down.
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You want this sort of ambassador army of these medium sized to lower, um,
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sized influences, uh, that, that just advocate for you, um, all the time.
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Yeah.
11:59
No, that's, that's, that's brilliant.
12:01
That's brilliant.
12:02
Hey, listen, if you are listening to this, uh, and you are in fact an
12:06
e-commerce yourself, you run your own e-commerce business, uh, let me tell
12:10
you a little bit about Cohort Now.
12:11
Cohort is a free monthly group that you can join.
12:17
Uh, and we have them in different parts of the world.
12:19
Um, so, you know, hopefully won't fit your time zone.
12:22
Uh, but you can come and join us on Cohort.
12:25
Basically, it's just a bunch of us involved in e-commerce.
12:27
We got on calls.
12:28
How's it going?
12:28
Share stories.
12:29
Share what's working, share.
12:30
You know, I. Throw some thoughts into the ring and we connect
12:33
with like-minded people.
12:34
Uh, we do it on Zoom.
12:36
It's all free, and it's all very, very fantastic.
12:39
So if you would like to know more about that, just check it out.
12:42
ecommerce-podcast.net.
12:44
You know the website by now, ecommerce-podcast.net.
12:47
Uh, but yeah, go check it out there, especially if
12:49
you're involved in eCommerce.
12:50
We'd love to meet you in those groups.
12:54
Now, let's get into this then, Luke, because one of the things, um.
12:58
You've mentioned then is, well, it's better to go get the
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smaller, you know, accounts.
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How do I do that?
13:04
How do I do what you call build an unstoppable ambassador army?
13:10
Excellent.
13:11
So this is something I'm, I'm very passionate about and very excited
13:13
to be talking about here, Matt.
13:14
Um, and it's something that you'll see a lot of brands, uh, are shifting towards
13:18
now, is that they want this always on army of advocates and ambassadors around
13:23
them who love their brand, um, who will be posting about it consistently, but it
13:28
can be managed in a way where you don't have to hire a headcount purely to be this
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community manager or something like that.
13:34
Um.
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So I think what a lot of brands overlook is the power, um, and the
13:39
reach of their existing customers.
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There are people who buy from you every day, who have the ability to
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share with their friends, family, and followers, um, in a meaningful way.
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Like we, we do this analysis a couple of times a week on brands that typically have
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between sort of 500,000 to 1.5 million.
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Uh.
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Email lists, uh, folks in there.
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Um, and, and typically what we'll see is that the average brand will have somewhere
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between, uh, 200 and 250 influencers.
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And I, I, when I say influencer, I mean someone with more than 2,500
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followers on a common platform, um, per 10,000, uh, emails.
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So that's 250 per 10,000 emails.
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Um, and that's completely being overlooked.
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Um, so.
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Brands tend, and I guess it was originally done in the, in the world of e-commerce.
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'cause you had no way of finding out who actually exists within
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your, your customer list.
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But now we live in a world where there's a bunch of these really complex influencer
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platforms that have rich information about every, uh, creator that's in the world.
14:44
Like our, our platform has access to over 15 million
14:47
creator and influencer profiles.
14:49
Um, so we can see in real time who's shopping and what their,
14:53
what their follow account is.
14:54
So.
14:55
No longer are you, are you viewing your existing customers as sort of
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this passive group of people, um, that are just enjoying my product?
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Whereas now you're saying, look, these are actually our best marketing asset.
15:06
These are the folks, um, that we can sort of co-create with and we can collaborate
15:10
with to get some really interesting outcomes that are a affordable, um, and
15:16
be super authentic and brand accretive.
15:19
Um.
15:20
So our approach is let's find out everyone within your audience that has
15:27
a meaningful social media following.
15:30
Um, and once we've done that, let's do some pretty basic, um, outreach.
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We don't wanna be like too much of a pest.
15:38
These are people who bought your product organically.
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They love you, they've spent their own hard earned cash.
15:42
Um.
15:43
Let, let's make a soft offer to them to see if they're interested in
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becoming an ambassador or an advocate for you and speaking for the brand.
15:51
Um, so that, that, that changes in a, in a bunch of different ways.
15:54
Um, it looks different for different brands depending on the average
15:57
age of the audience or, or the type of product that you're selling.
16:03
Like one of our strongest, um, one of our strongest.
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Uh, brands we are working with is a, is a ticketing site in the
16:10
US They massive ticketing site.
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They sort of do north of $500 million worth of ticket sales a year.
16:15
Um, our ability to reach out to their customer base and say, um, do you wanna
16:21
be an always on advocate for us, is, is limited because it's based around a
16:25
specific purchase of an event and they need to be hit right at that perfect time
16:29
where they can say, Hey, here's something I'm going to, y'all should come along to.
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Um.
16:35
Whereas if it's a, a supplement brand, that's so much easier just
16:39
to say, Hey, look, I know this per this, this person who is an
16:42
influencer who is purchasing from me every single month, um, has a reach.
16:47
There's some really fun ways that I can do some surprise and delight in that
16:52
regular outreach, whether that's the merch or whether that's the upsize or,
16:56
or even just something as simple as a handwritten note, uh, acknowledging their
17:00
purchase goes so far with these sort of.
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Nano influencers and micro creators who, who might not be used to being
17:06
acknowledged and used to being sort of singled out, um, that belly
17:11
scratch, uh, makes them feel special.
17:13
And, and is, is sometimes enough to, to get them from being a passive person who's
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enjoying it, to someone who's posting.
17:20
Um.
17:21
That's really good.
17:22
I, I, and again, I mean, that's just a general human thing, isn't it?
17:26
So many people go unnoticed that actually if you just notice somebody and
17:30
say thank you in a unique way, people just genuinely fall in love with you.
17:33
And, and it's, you know,
17:34
Yeah,
17:35
people love that.
17:37
Um, so we're looking in our existing customers for people who have got over
17:42
two and a half thousand followers.
17:43
exactly.
17:45
um, how do I do that?
17:47
Is it because we've been having this conversation?
17:49
Ironically, actually, it's perfect timing for us in many ways.
17:51
We were having this conversation the other day in the office, like, do
17:53
we just email every single customer and say, listen, we're thinking of
17:56
setting up a, an influencer program.
17:58
I. It's not quite how I'd phrase it, but in essence is we're
18:01
setting up an influencer program.
18:03
Um, would you like to get involved or is there a, is there a better way to do,
18:07
I, I, I kind of know how you can answer this because I know this is where your
18:10
company does some help, so, um, quick plug for what you guys do and tell us how you
18:16
would help someone like me not to do that.
18:20
Or maybe that, maybe that is the best practice.
18:21
I dunno, I'm making an assumption here.
18:23
Hey, look, look, I'll, I'll, I'll take you through the whole process here.
18:26
I'll tell you how we would do it as a company that specializes in this.
18:30
Um, but it's not to say that if you don't work with us, you can't do it.
18:33
I can, I'll, I'll speak quickly to if I didn't have any budget at all, do this,
18:37
and I still wanted to see this outcome.
18:40
How would I do it without budget?
18:42
Um, so, so for us, what we do is, is we integrate into the email
18:46
platform that these brands work with.
18:48
The most common one is, is Klaviyo.
18:50
So Klaviyo is what's gonna send out the post-purchase order emails.
18:52
Um, and how that works with us is the moment a, a transaction takes place, um,
18:58
a customer profiles created in Klaviyo, um, which has a a bunch of details,
19:02
name, email, address, some order details.
19:05
We use that to create a profile that we match against.
19:07
15 million, uh, influencer profiles that exist in the world.
19:11
Um, and once we do find that we have a successful match, then we trigger a
19:18
flow that goes out to, uh, all of these creators, uh, that says, Hey, just
19:22
notice you made a purchase from us.
19:24
Looks like you might be a good fit for our creator team.
19:27
Uh, if you are, click this button and we'll automatically add
19:30
you to our creator community.
19:32
Something as simple as that.
19:33
Um.
19:35
If, but we'll do some conditional flows where it's, if it's between 3,500 and
19:40
100,000, they get email A. If it's between 100,000 and 300,000 for example,
19:47
it'll be email B, which will be a little bit softer saying, Hey, love what?
19:51
You just, uh, love that you purchased from us.
19:53
Love your content.
19:55
Um, would you like us to send you some more free stuff?
19:58
Something like that, or our, our founder would love to chat to you
20:02
about a potential collaboration.
20:03
Here's a meeting link.
20:04
Let me know if you're interested in chatting.
20:06
Um, and then the third flow is if they've got more than 300,000, uh, we
20:10
just send a notification into their Slack channel saying, Hey, by the
20:14
way, this person just made a purchase.
20:15
If you wanna reach out to them, reach out to them.
20:17
If you don't wanna reach out to 'em, don't worry about it.
20:19
Uh, we're mindful there still is some value in having those.
20:22
Brand partnerships with the massive creators and automating
20:25
communication with them probably isn't the right way to go about, um,
20:29
For the same reasons.
20:30
We don't do AI agents in our, in our contact.
20:33
Yeah.
20:33
Yeah.
20:33
Same reason.
20:34
and then we parallel that with a, we've just got our hands
20:37
on a really cool new one.
20:39
One of these AI agents startups, which is, um.
20:42
Allowing us to automate dms out to the creators via Instagram, which
20:46
is a very similar message, which is, Hey, not sure if you saw our
20:49
email, saw your purchase from us.
20:51
Love your content.
20:52
Reply if you're interested in a collaboration.
20:54
Yeah.
20:55
Okay.
20:55
Um, so those are being fired out one day after that initial email goes out.
21:00
Um, the idea being that now you've at least made the ask, um, simply
21:04
asking if they're interested.
21:06
You've identified them, they have a potential, uh, to be a, a really
21:10
good collaborator for your business.
21:12
You've hinted it, there's some upside for them.
21:14
And then you've built this community and the idea is you'll end up
21:17
building 500 odd people who are inside, uh, this created team.
21:22
Um, some, some brands manage it in like a Slack channel or a Discord or a Instagram
21:28
broadcast channel where they have the founder constantly posting sort of once a
21:32
week saying, what color do you guys reckon we should have for next season's drop or.
21:37
Are you also facing this problem?
21:39
Depending on the brand, you sort of activate them and work with
21:42
them and, and make them feel involved and loved by the brand.
21:45
Um, give them some early access.
21:48
There needs to be some benefit to them beyond just a simple referral link.
21:52
Um, and then you're just, every single month, your brand is top of
21:57
mind for them because you're talking to them, you're maintaining that
21:59
relationship and they love your brand because they paid with their own
22:02
hard earned cash to make a purchase.
22:05
Um.
22:06
By opting in.
22:07
That's their way of saying, Hey, look, let's let, let's make
22:10
something of this together in a way that's mutually beneficial.
22:14
Um,
22:15
that's really cool.
22:16
and if I didn't have any budget, the way you do that is an email
22:19
that goes out post-purchase.
22:21
Perhaps the same time you're sending out that review email saying, Hey, by the
22:24
way, we are building an ambassador army.
22:26
Um, there are a bunch here.
22:27
Here's a list of the, the benefits that everyone can get.
22:30
Um, you don't, what you have to be careful is you don't want
22:33
to be seen to be excluding.
22:34
Everyday customers from being an ambassador because they don't
22:37
have enough followers, because that's sort of like a, a, a pretty
22:40
disappointing outcome for them.
22:41
Everyone gets in, but, but as part of that, you'll ask them to sort
22:46
of submit their Instagram handle or some sort of handle as they, they
22:51
go through the, the process and you can sort of manually sort who's.
22:56
The, the big fish, uh, and who's not, and you can sort of manage that
23:02
organically, um, throughout that process and just do the exact same thing.
23:06
Yeah, that's super smart.
23:08
Is it?
23:08
Um, I, I guess there's a, as I'm listening to you talk, Luke, there's
23:12
a, a cutoff in terms of budget.
23:14
So if I don't have money, I'm gonna go down the route of setting
23:17
up a, a post email sequence.
23:19
Okay.
23:19
I get that.
23:20
I can do that.
23:20
That's not a problem.
23:21
I. If I've got budget, I'm gonna come to someone like you and
23:24
say, listen, um, this is great.
23:25
You've got software.
23:26
It's gonna make my life a lot easier.
23:27
I guess another way to look at this is to say, uh, what number?
23:34
Um, so if I've just started out, for example, and I've only got like
23:37
a thousand people on my email list,
23:40
Yeah.
23:40
it probably, I, I'm, I'm, does it make sense to use you?
23:43
Probably not.
23:43
I don't know.
23:45
Um.
23:46
What, at what number does a a, um, a service like yours actually really
23:51
start to impact a business like mine?
23:53
Yeah, so look, we like to work with brands that have more than 10,000 emails
23:58
in their customer list before that.
24:00
Um, the, the volume of sort of influences we discover is, is gonna be difficult
24:06
to, to make meaningful changes.
24:09
That's not to say that we haven't had great outcomes for smaller businesses.
24:12
Um, I'm sure as you've seen, as I've seen all it takes is one good creator, um, to
24:18
make a meaningful change for a business like the, the, i I keep wheeling out.
24:21
The same example with, with a lot of people that I speak to is with
24:25
one of the brands we work with.
24:26
They're, they're a, um, a suitcase brand.
24:28
Um, they sell inflight suitcases, carry on bags and the like.
24:32
Um, we found one YouTuber, 5,000 subscribers, maybe 5,500 now.
24:38
Um.
24:39
He's generated more than $330,000 worth of transactions, uh, for this brand.
24:45
They set him up with a referral link, uh, and asked him for his opinion every
24:49
now and then on like what sort of that he, 'cause he, he does suitcase reviews
24:53
as his, his, uh, channel on YouTube.
24:55
It's very niche, but he felt like he was included.
24:58
He felt like he was part of the brand.
25:00
Now, he posted a bunch of videos, sort of, he rerecorded a new video every
25:04
two months for this particular brand.
25:06
With his affiliate link, I think he was getting like 20 bucks per suitcase sale.
25:10
Um, and he's generated $330,000 worth of sales.
25:14
This is a very meaningful percent of, of that brand's total
25:20
revenue for the last 12 months.
25:22
Yeah, I, no, I, I, I mean, influences, when you look at the
25:26
numbers, it's incredible really when you, when you can track it out.
25:29
How do we, um, so I, whether I've emailed them out post-purchase sequence, then, or
25:34
I've, I've, I'm using, you know, Ray or.
25:38
A service to kind of help me, how do I as a brand, make sure, what do I
25:44
need to think about as a brand to, you use the phrase always on, right?
25:48
So, um, how do I make sure they don't just sign up and then forget about us?
25:52
How do I deliver this value?
25:54
How do I keep them engaged?
25:55
How do I get them sharing posts regularly?
25:59
Exactly, look, so we break it down into three separate stages.
26:01
So stage one is getting the right people into the top of the
26:04
bucket, um, top of the funnel.
26:05
So you've got an opportunity for people to share.
26:08
The next stage is you don't start with the idea of this needs to be
26:12
a, um, a an always on solution.
26:16
What your first goal should always be is how do I get them to talk about
26:20
me or post about me or perform some sort of ambassadorial task just once.
26:25
I just want one single task out of them.
26:27
Um, so getting them to perform that first task should be the number one
26:32
objective, and there needs to be, obviously the right timing, uh, the
26:36
right task for them to complete.
26:38
If you ask every single person who's just made a purchase from you to
26:42
create a one minute long Instagram reel and post it, that's a pretty
26:45
high level of ask to to get from them, and you'll get pretty low conversion
26:50
rate and it's gonna fizzle them out.
26:51
Um.
26:52
And they're not gonna be interested in being part of your little
26:56
army of ambassadors anymore.
26:57
So you need to have a really easy goal for them to object, uh, to, um, to, to
27:01
get across the line, set off with, with a pretty meaningful carrot at the end of it.
27:05
So it might be something as simple as, look, if you post about us
27:09
on your Instagram story, um, Instagram story, easy to come by.
27:13
Um.
27:14
Just purely, you don't even have to tag us.
27:16
You don't have to use a referral link.
27:18
Just show that you've made a purchase from us, uh, and it's
27:21
part of your day-to-day life.
27:22
That's enough.
27:23
Uh, we'll send you a free hoodie, we'll send you a cap
27:25
or we'll send you something.
27:27
Um, and that tends to work well.
27:30
And once they've performed that, once you've, you've formed a behavior, and
27:35
then now that they're in the group, you can say, look, now we're in the
27:38
month of, uh, may, month of April, or month of May, whatever it is.
27:43
Um.
27:44
Here's a list of all of the potential, uh, ambassador rewards
27:47
that are going for this month.
27:48
And you can just recycle 'em every single month.
27:50
So it'll be, if you want to, uh, post a a reel, here's kind of what the
27:54
reels we are looking for this month to support the ads that are going out.
27:57
Um, this is the reward, um, for, uh, an Instagram story.
28:03
Here are some stories that we are looking for this month.
28:05
These are the rewards for these types of stories.
28:07
And by the way, everyone in the Ambassador Army gets an
28:11
affiliate link or a referral link.
28:12
Here's how you can generate that and then use an example of like, here's an
28:16
example of an influencer just like you who's made $5,000, uh, in the month
28:20
of January by clever talking about our brand and using the affiliate
28:24
link like an absolute champion.
28:27
So the, so you're, you're talking about two things there then, aren't you?
28:30
You, are, you I'm giving the influencer two things.
28:32
I'm giving them a reward for an action.
28:35
Um, but then I'm also giving them a referral link so that they
28:39
make a commission on the sale.
28:41
Exactly.
28:42
Well, so that's an option.
28:43
They have the option to have that referral link in affiliate link.
28:46
That tends to be the one that most brands go down because they like to see
28:49
attributable sales and they like to know where the transactions are coming from
28:52
and that this is a high ROI channel.
28:55
Um, other brands, and I'm, I'm sure you've seen it in your work
28:59
as well, is that they're just super thirsty for any content.
29:02
The content drives all paid performance marketing at the moment
29:06
and all sort of website optimization.
29:08
So maybe they don't actually care about, uh, getting the affiliate links out
29:12
there or the referral links out there.
29:14
And look, certain brands are not well positioned for
29:16
referral and affiliate links.
29:17
If you're a luxury brand, referral links and affiliate links don't work as well.
29:22
If you're a brand that has your average age over over 50, by asking that
29:27
customer to sort of understand how referral and affiliate links works, um,
29:31
just purely that coaching process can sort of throw a spanner in the work.
29:33
So it's purely just talking about the brand and getting the right content
29:36
that you can then have flowing through into, uh, the, the, the general
29:42
marketing engine is what's key.
29:43
I'm not an expert in telling a brand exactly what they want from these creators
29:47
and influences that exist in their mix.
29:49
That's for them to decide, but.
29:51
I can say, look, here are some proven cases of the way that brands we work
29:55
with have utilized this army that exists within their customer base
29:59
to achieve their business goals.
30:01
So this, um, so what have you seen actually work well then?
30:05
I mean, you've obviously got these case studies.
30:07
I'm curious because I, um,
30:11
I would genuinely love to know what is working well at the
30:13
moment in terms of motivating.
30:15
I. Um, what, what have you seen brands do that you kind of think
30:19
that's genius that I can see why you are winning at at life now?
30:22
Um, good question.
30:26
Um, so the, the brand, one of the brands that is working really well
30:30
has a high amount of brand loyalty.
30:32
They work in the, uh, sort of fitness and uh, fitness clothing space with
30:38
posture correcting, uh, fitness.
30:40
Stuff.
30:40
So what they're doing is they know that they have a really high level
30:44
of, uh, brand advocacy and brand love.
30:47
Um, so they're, they're finding, uh, the creators that, that
30:51
already love them and, and they're purely getting content for them.
30:55
Content is king and they want, uh, top of funnel content.
31:00
So for them it's, look, you don't even need to post anything.
31:03
Just give us a 15 minute, um.
31:06
15 minute, uh, script and a selfie style video, um, talking about why you've bought
31:12
this garment and not another garment.
31:14
Um, and then they're just using that video to chop it up
31:17
and repurpose it all over the
31:18
Yeah.
31:19
Um, the, the brand that I was talking to about the, uh, earlier
31:24
with the, the suitcases and bags, they're very performance driven.
31:28
Um, they only want attributable sales really.
31:31
Um, they've got a, a little bit of the softer stuff around making
31:34
people feel included in part of the.
31:36
Community.
31:37
Um, but they have a, if you're gonna take that approach, the size
31:42
of the price needs to be there.
31:43
You can't cheap out on like 1% commission on referral transactions or 2%, which
31:48
we see brands trying to go down and I understand that like you eroding away
31:53
margins every now and then, but they have a pretty meaningful, um, reward of, I
31:59
think it's like 20 or $30 per transaction.
32:02
Um.
32:04
That tends to be enough to get most people posting about it.
32:07
Um, I think for them it helps as well is that they have
32:11
particularly beautiful bags.
32:12
Um, so it's an, because it's beautiful and travel has so much
32:16
social currency, it's easy to inject that into lifestyle content.
32:22
Yeah, yeah.
32:24
I imagine that is, I imagine.
32:26
But I, I like how you, you, you're, what you're showing us
32:29
here is different use cases.
32:30
So you can use this system just to get creative, which
32:33
you can use in your ad content.
32:35
So maybe you just want videos, you, which you are gonna chop up from people.
32:38
They don't have to post anything.
32:40
Maybe you do want them to post stuff.
32:42
Um, uh, maybe you also want attributable sales.
32:47
The thing is actually quite dynamic, isn't it?
32:49
It's quite.
32:50
Flexible to how you wanna run as a business.
32:53
I guess for most people their default is gonna be, I think, and most people
32:59
are gonna think, well, I just, of course I want attributable sales.
33:01
Why would, why would I not want attributable sales?
33:04
But is that, is that always the, I mean, you've, you've mentioned one company
33:07
that doesn't do that, the gym company, but is that, is that always the best
33:11
policy or how would I determine what the, the right route to go down is?
33:16
I mean, look, it really depends on what stage we're in as a business.
33:19
Um, if I was a new business that was just getting started, um,
33:24
probably the, the better outcome and the easier outcome might just be.
33:29
To get people posting about you, top of funnel awareness, um, driven by getting
33:35
authentic influencers who are purely just a post to the Instagram story.
33:38
If you can get 'em posting once a month or once every two weeks about you, um,
33:42
that's huge validation to their audience that this is, this brand is a real deal.
33:47
Um, as soon as you start attaching affiliate links and referral links,
33:50
it can cheapen or sort of take some authenticity away from that post.
33:55
Um.
33:56
So if I want just to get a bunch of creators posting about it, so I
34:01
feel like I'm a brand that's being talked about in the world, um, that
34:05
can be a really positive outcome.
34:06
And then eventually, after three or four months of doing that with the rewards,
34:11
going to the people who are posting and, and seeing how that engagement works
34:14
and the way they like to talk about your brand, you can take those learnings and
34:17
feed them into your advertising engine for some sort of creative content ideas.
34:22
And then you can start injecting some, uh.
34:26
Some, some referral links or affiliate links into that type as well.
34:29
But I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't try and rip those affiliate links right off the bat.
34:32
I would just get, let's, let's get our position in the market.
34:36
Let's get people talking about us.
34:37
Let's make us look like a real tangible brand if we are new
34:41
and still early on the journey.
34:42
And then hopefully that'll lead to some transaction.
34:46
But if you try and jump to that point too early, um, you can sort of sacrifice
34:51
some authenticity in that process.
34:53
Yeah, yeah.
34:53
No, I like that.
34:54
And you bet it's very top of funnel then, isn't it?
34:56
It's all very brand awareness, um, type thing.
35:00
How do you.
35:01
How do you track it, right?
35:02
So if, if I'm gonna do that whole brand awareness thing and it's like,
35:05
okay guys, these are the rewards.
35:07
If you do whatever, five stories, three reels and a ridge in a pair of
35:12
tree, then um, you get this reward.
35:15
Um, how do you track that?
35:17
Is that something that they need to tell you that they've done?
35:19
Is that something you can track automatically with hashtags?
35:22
How, how do I make that process easier?
35:24
Yeah, so look, d different brands do it in a different way.
35:27
For a lot of the brands we work with, we'll take 100%
35:29
ownership of that tracking.
35:31
Um, and part of the process will be that, um, we'll either we've got some
35:37
clever tools that can make assumptions around the reach of a post or, um,
35:42
in some cases we'll just ask the, the creator on the 23rd hour of the, the
35:47
story being up, um, shoot us over a screenshot of the reach and we'll just.
35:51
Store that against our profile.
35:52
So we know that this person consistently gets this reach and it's been posted
35:57
and this is what it looks like.
35:58
Um, but like a, a, a good brand that's on their toes.
36:03
We'll be consistently resharing that content as well in real time.
36:07
Um, just to continue the amplification process.
36:09
So, uh, we, we, as part of the process, we tend to build out, build out these
36:13
pretty comprehensive CRM type tools of these are all the folks on the roster,
36:18
this is who's posted, this is the reach.
36:21
Um, and, and this is their reward that's been, uh, put back to them.
36:26
So.
36:27
If you want to, like, obviously we know the space that we operate in, um, and
36:32
as much as it's nice to have the warm fuzzies for having someone post about
36:35
you, we need to be, be able to be compared to other places that money's going.
36:40
So you can see what the CPM is, you can see what, uh, if, if we're doing
36:45
that referral or affiliate based approach, you can, you can sort of
36:48
throw together a CPC or a even a cost per acquisition on the back of it.
36:52
Um, and that'll at least keep us.
36:56
Uh, in a position where we can be compared apples with apples, whereas in the past,
37:01
and we sort of spoke to that original, uh, influencer marketing approach at
37:05
the top of the call, uh, which was like, just throw money at a big influencer.
37:09
And maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, there's no real way of telling.
37:13
Um, whereas now it should be like, alright, this is how it
37:16
compares with our Facebook spend, with our, uh, Google spend.
37:22
Uh, and we can see exactly how that compares.
37:25
Fantastic.
37:26
Fantastic.
37:27
Luke, listen, before we get to the saving, the best tool, last section, uh.
37:33
The now's the time.
37:35
Uh, well before we, we we're gonna get to that.
37:38
And if you don't know about the same last, uh, saving the best or last
37:41
section, it's a new segment to the show.
37:43
Stay tuned 'cause we're gonna save the best to the best.
37:45
Now, uh, let me ask you, Luke, this is the time of the show where I
37:49
go, what's your question for me?
37:51
This is where I take your question.
37:53
I will go away and I will answer it on social media, predominantly
37:56
LinkedIn, ladies and gentlemen.
37:58
Uh, but um, yeah, I'm gonna take your question.
38:00
I'm gonna answer on LinkedIn.
38:01
So if you don't follow me by the way already on LinkedIn, come
38:03
follow me at Matt Edmundson.
38:04
You'll see the answer there to this question.
38:08
Go look.
38:09
So, Matt, you've been in, in e-commerce for a long time, a
38:13
very long time, longer than most.
38:14
Um, and I'm sure you've lived, uh, through many of these hype cycles of,
38:19
there's a specific part of e-commerce marketing that comes through that's
38:23
particularly frothy and then dies away.
38:25
Um, looking at this moment in time right now, I'd love to know.
38:31
Uh, is there any hype that's happening now that you think brands and brand owners
38:35
are over investing time and energy into?
38:38
And then on the other side of that is where are people not investing enough
38:42
time and energy into what's like the low hanging fruit out there that, that you
38:46
consistently look at brands and you're saying like, these people are absolute
38:49
idiots for not investing a little bit more time and energy into this one simple thing
38:54
that can have like really good outcomes.
38:57
That is such a phenomenal question.
39:00
And now I look, I know before we started recording, you said, oh,
39:02
we've got the, we've got the question for the question from that thing.
39:04
That's good.
39:05
That's great.
39:05
You, whoever put that together, genius loving that.
39:08
Uh, if you wanna know how I'm gonna answer loose, great question.
39:11
Then like I say, follow me on LinkedIn at Edmundson, you'll find
39:14
the answer there at some point in.
39:16
The future.
39:17
No doubt.
39:18
Look, listen.
39:18
Uh, how do people reach you?
39:20
How do they connect with you if they want to do that, what's the best way to find
39:23
out about maybe connecting with the rave?
39:26
Maybe get their help on board.
39:27
I don't know.
39:27
What's, what's, what's the low down bro?
39:29
Yeah, look, I like to be nice and approachable.
39:31
Just email me luke@therave.co.
39:33
You can find me on LinkedIn, Luke ya uh, there's not, not
39:36
too many Luke Yarnton out there.
39:38
Um, otherwise yeah, the rave.co is the website.
39:41
There's a bunch of ways that you can, you can book some time with me and we can sit
39:44
down and have a chat and talk through, uh, potential strategies for your brand.
39:48
Fantastic.
39:49
We will of course, link to Luke and all of his stuff, the, the email, the LinkedIn,
39:55
all of that sort of stuff will be in the show notes, which if you're just on the
39:58
podcast app, just listening, scroll down.
40:00
It'll be there in the YouTube description.
40:01
Scroll down, it'll be there.
40:02
Of course, you can go to the websites.
40:05
Uh, ecommerce-podcast.net and it'll be there.
40:08
And of course, if you are subscribed to the newsletter, uh,
40:12
it will also be in your inbox.
40:13
And if you're not subscribed to the newsletter, why not?
40:15
What's wrong with you?
40:16
It's the best newsletter going out there.
40:17
It's unbelievable.
40:18
This thing.
40:19
Uh, it's actually, we're in a really, uh, we, I've, I've mentioned this
40:22
a couple of times on the show.
40:22
We've just changed over how we do the newsletters and the new system,
40:27
um, that we've, we've got coming up.
40:29
It's almost.
40:31
Almost launched.
40:32
It's a little bit behind.
40:32
I'm about two weeks behind, but we're, we're just about to launch
40:35
it and the value of the newsletters is just shot through the roof.
40:37
So, um, do find out more information about that, of course, at
40:42
ecommerce-podcast.net where we'll put in all the strategies and stuff from
40:45
Luke about influencer marketing, if that's something you want to get into.
40:48
Right, Luke?
40:49
In the last few minutes, let's do the saving the best till last.
40:55
Uh, this is where I like to just reward everybody that stayed with us throughout
40:58
the entire journey on this podcast.
41:00
Um, that we, I'm using the word reward and there's no link, there's no
41:04
referral link, ladies and gentlemen.
41:06
Uh, but if you've stayed with us this long, I'd just like to ask the, I guess,
41:10
for their best tip to save the best tool.
41:12
Less so.
41:12
Luke, what is that from you, my friend?
41:15
So this is a little secret that we've just recently learned.
41:17
Um, and for us it's been a massive unlock that I think can be applied to
41:21
anyone who's trying to do similar things to what we are trying to do, uh, which
41:25
is sort of getting an outcome from a customer that loves your brand, um,
41:28
that is do them doing something for you.
41:29
Right?
41:30
Um, so, so that learning is that obviously for us, what we are trying to do is
41:34
get people posting about a brand after they've made a purchase in real time.
41:37
Ideally, what we've found is that offering.
41:42
A slight refund or a fraction of a refund outperforms any other incentive.
41:47
Ridiculously.
41:49
Um, so by that I mean, for some reason, let, let's say you
41:52
made a purchase that's $100.
41:55
Um, if I were to say to that person, Hey, look, we'll give you $20 if you post an
41:59
Instagram story about our brand or an unboxing video on your Instagram story.
42:04
Um, $20.
42:05
Response rate for that tends to be sort of like three to 5% pretty low.
42:10
If you change that and say, Hey, look, we're gonna give you a 20% refund on
42:13
your recent order, uh, for making a post about us that skyrockets for some reason.
42:18
There's some, and look, you've been in e-commerce and in marketing
42:21
for much longer than I have, Matt.
42:23
There's, there's something there around consumer psychology where, uh,
42:27
a refund for a, a recent purchase.
42:31
Is perceived to be either much more valuable or much less icky, um,
42:37
than the corresponding pay for post.
42:39
I think may, maybe there's something to do with like loss aversion, but I.
42:43
We've found that that offering, that, that small refund, it doesn't have
42:47
to be a full, like if you can offer a full refund on a purchase for something
42:50
that's gonna send people absolutely nuts.
42:53
Um, but just a small refund for, for some sort of outcome goes so well, I.
42:59
And look, that often can go out to any customer.
43:02
It doesn't have to be an influencer that's, uh, in your, in your audience.
43:06
If you wanted to ask every single person who made a purchase from you to post
43:09
about their product, your, your product, um, after they've made a purchase and
43:14
offer them like a 25% refund on their order or something with a maximum of,
43:19
you can set a max limit on that as well.
43:21
You'll get significantly more people posting about you.
43:24
That's incredible.
43:26
That's, and I'm, this is, I'm smiling because actually we do a lot of research.
43:29
After we do the podcast, um, based on our conversation, we go away
43:34
and we do some research, right.
43:35
And we look at some of the latest stats and stuff.
43:37
And so when we write the blog posts and when we do the newsletters
43:40
that I've mentioned, we want to add extra value, right?
43:42
We just, we we're starting to put a lot more stuff in these, in these,
43:45
uh, blog posts and case studies, uh, blog posts and newsletters.
43:49
That one stat alone is gonna send the research nuts.
43:52
'cause we, I now need to understand why that is the case.
43:56
I've got some theories I think.
43:58
I wonder what it comes back with.
44:00
My gut feel would be actually getting a refund is really easy
44:03
'cause you're gonna refund, you've already got my credit card details.
44:06
If you're gonna pay me 20 bucks, I've gotta set up an account,
44:08
I've gotta give you my email.
44:10
Does that mean I have to declare it on a tax return?
44:12
There's all kinds of problems associated with that, which you
44:16
know, are synonymous with it now.
44:18
Whereas a refund is an easy, easy win, isn't it?
44:21
It's just like, oh, great, just put the 20 bucks back in my account
44:24
Yeah.
44:24
Look, I, I think to your original point, it, perception of work I'm doing changes
44:29
If it's I'm getting something back versus I'm getting something new, um, and it
44:35
changes at that point of transaction, it changes the value proposition around like
44:39
what I've just purchased and actually I'm getting something for cheaper than I
44:42
thought it was for doing something that I might have might have done anyway.
44:46
Um, so.
44:48
That's brilliant.
44:49
I have to say, Luke, I, I've not been tracking actually, uh, since we've been
44:53
doing it, the saving the best or less.
44:55
But, uh, if I was, I dare say if.
44:58
That's probably the best answer we've had on the saving the best or last.
45:01
So, uh, I, I have to, I have to do this.
45:03
I have to applaud you.
45:05
Yes.
45:05
Very good.
45:05
Well done.
45:07
Uh, yeah.
45:08
Nailed that.
45:09
Fantastic.
45:10
Luke, listen man, really appreciate you, appreciate you coming on the podcast.
45:13
It's been great to meet you and talk to you all the way, uh, on
45:17
the other side of the Atlantic.
45:19
Um, love what you guys are doing and of course, if you are in the
45:22
market for some help with influencer marketing, then do connect with Luke.
45:26
But Luke.
45:27
Appreciate it, man.
45:28
You're a legend.
45:29
Thanks for coming on the show.
45:30
Cheers.
45:31
Thanks for your time, Matt.
45:32
No problem.
45:33
Now that's it from me.
45:35
That's it from Luke.
45:36
Thank you so much for joining us.
45:38
Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world, and of
45:40
course, I will see you next time.
45:41
That's it from me.
45:42
Bye for now.