Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #71 - Why Law Firm SEO Still Works—If You’re Tracking the Right Things with Will McCreight

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#71 - Why Law Firm SEO Still Works—If You’re Tracking the Right Things with Will McCreight · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_00: That is a great problem to have for ranking number one for injury lawyer,
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SPEAKER_00: personal injury,
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SPEAKER_00: car accident,
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SPEAKER_00: whatever.
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And you're getting a bunch of unqualified leads coming through
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because I promise
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SPEAKER_00: you the good ones are coming with that as well.
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SPEAKER_00: So yes,
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SPEAKER_00: your point,
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it's a great problem to have if Google views you as such an
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authoritative presence
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SPEAKER_00: that you're collecting a lot of that stuff as well.
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SPEAKER_01: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
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SPEAKER_01: And today I am here with Will McCrate.
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He and I have known each other,
0:46
gotten to know each other very well over the last few weeks.
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SPEAKER_01: I think we've known at least of each other for a few years now.
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SPEAKER_01: And he works for Blue Shark Digital and is just a great resource.
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SPEAKER_01: Talk about SEO, digital marketing, online marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: Blue Shark also helps a few of my clients with their websites.
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SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate working with them.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'll turn it over to Will so he can finish out his introduction.
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SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much for being with me today.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Echo, enjoy working with you as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Obviously, my name is Will.
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SPEAKER_00: My title is technically a senior account executive at Blue Shark,
1:21
SPEAKER_00: but I've been with the agency for about seven years or so now.
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SPEAKER_00: I actually started out in one of our teams internally,
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SPEAKER_00: focused on link building,
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SPEAKER_00: Google business profile stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: and then spent a couple of years as one of our senior level strategists,
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SPEAKER_00: where I got to really
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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work as that day-to-day point of contact for the firms that we
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partner with to make
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SPEAKER_00: sure that we are successful,
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SPEAKER_00: but also looking down the line to figure out how we can build upon that.
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SPEAKER_00: And because of what I was able to do with those firms,
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SPEAKER_00: I was able to step into my current position,
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SPEAKER_00: which is our senior account executive.
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SPEAKER_00: Really what my goal,
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SPEAKER_00: whenever I'm talking to somebody is to figure out,
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SPEAKER_00: are we potentially a fit?
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And if so,
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how do we make sure that we have the strategy to be successful?
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SPEAKER_00: I've also had the privilege of being able to speak at the
2:01
Probably about a little over a dozen conferences and events
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over the past year and
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SPEAKER_00: change,
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SPEAKER_00: which Tiffany is where we first met.
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And I actually have a funny story about that because I think
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our first interaction
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was when I sent you a message on LinkedIn at the GLM summit
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with Ben and Brian.
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SPEAKER_00: And you had left or you were out of the room or something.
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And I messaged you because somebody stood up and asked a
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question about like,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
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SPEAKER_00: where'd that woman go who said this and this?
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SPEAKER_00: I think I need to get in touch with her.
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SPEAKER_00: I was like, hey, you got to come back.
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SPEAKER_00: But I'm excited to be here.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: gosh,
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it's kind of hard to remember all of the past summits that I've
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been to because
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SPEAKER_01: honestly,
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SPEAKER_01: there are so many.
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SPEAKER_01: And this year, it's one of my goals to go to more of these events.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to be at one next week.
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And I think actually this episode might actually air later
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today because my team is
2:54
SPEAKER_01: just so quick on the podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: So next week I'll be speaking at the AI for PI Expo in Orlando.
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And then I have a few other events that I'm planning to attend
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this year and really
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SPEAKER_01: looking forward to.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's just such a great place to like meet people, talk ideas.
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SPEAKER_01: Cause like when you're in your office at your desk,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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you're working and you're not really thinking and those events
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are kind of a good
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SPEAKER_01: time for thinking,
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SPEAKER_01: at least for me,
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SPEAKER_01: not to make it about events and stuff like that.
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But one question I had wanted to ask you just because I've been
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thinking about it
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SPEAKER_01: myself,
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SPEAKER_01: but like,
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SPEAKER_01: how do you promote you will?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, what are all the ways that you promote yourself?
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SPEAKER_01: And like, how do people notice you if you know that?
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SPEAKER_00: I think typically people notice my height when I'm at conferences.
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SPEAKER_00: It doesn't show too much across the Zoom screen,
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but you may hear people call me the tall guy or something when
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we're out there.
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SPEAKER_00: For me,
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SPEAKER_00: when I'm at conferences and events and stuff like that,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that whatever we're looking to offer is just to be helpful.
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So I would like to think that people notice us because they
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maybe see what we do or
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SPEAKER_00: they ask questions and we place a lot of pride in just,
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SPEAKER_00: if nothing else,
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answers to those questions and trying to help people whether
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they're with us or not.
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And then there's just that element of familiarity where if you
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go to enough things,
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eventually you're just going to start running into people that
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you already saw.
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SPEAKER_00: And it kind of builds that way.
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SPEAKER_00: But LinkedIn, all that stuff, I guess just being around.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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it's important to like show up across all of these channels
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because I feel like I
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see a lot of people kind of trying to make their career from
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social media only like
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and that's just it's not impossible you know because I
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certainly built up a little
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SPEAKER_01: following on LinkedIn but at the same time like
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SPEAKER_01: The power of showing up in person,
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SPEAKER_01: talking to people face to face,
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hearing their problems and having them in a space where they're
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also thinking about
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SPEAKER_01: marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just so powerful.
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SPEAKER_01: And like, I feel like it just makes a deeper impression with people.
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SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you can solve people's problems.
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SPEAKER_01: Just write that in.
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SPEAKER_00: I agree.
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SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: a lot of the people listening to this,
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a lot of the first things that we talked about and that firms
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start doing is a lot
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SPEAKER_00: of the grassroots stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the same approach.
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SPEAKER_00: I'd actually be curious to hear your thoughts as well,
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SPEAKER_00: because a very common question that we get is about social media,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And like, should I be doing social media?
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SPEAKER_00: And usually my answer is,
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SPEAKER_00: you should only be doing it if it's something that you would do,
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SPEAKER_00: whether or not it brought you
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SPEAKER_00: the leads that you're hoping it will.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's just what we found is like the firms that actually like it,
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SPEAKER_00: they're passionate about it,
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SPEAKER_00: they're going to do it consistently and do it well.
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SPEAKER_00: The firms that think that it's something where you go on,
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SPEAKER_00: you post a bunch for two weeks,
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SPEAKER_00: then never again,
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SPEAKER_00: not really how it works.
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SPEAKER_00: I think maybe that's similar to what we're talking about as well.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: and let me ask you this,
5:50
SPEAKER_01: but like,
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what are like the problems that attorneys are having or people
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are having that
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SPEAKER_01: they're like,
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SPEAKER_01: one of the questions people asking you,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: what do you see happening out there?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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usually if we're speaking to somebody that we aren't working
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with and trying to
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SPEAKER_00: assess that partnership,
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it's because they either feel like they're not getting what
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they should be getting
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SPEAKER_00: out of their existing partnership,
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or they feel like there's opportunity to leverage growth
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through their digital
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SPEAKER_00: presence.
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SPEAKER_00: So...
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SPEAKER_00: When we're looking at bringing on a new firm,
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SPEAKER_00: a lot of what we're trying to assess is like,
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are you performing up to the way in which you could through
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your digital presence?
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SPEAKER_00: And is it even valuable, right?
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Because if it's a situation where there's nothing that we can
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do to step in and improve things,
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There's no point in partnering up and we'll be transparent
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about that if we don't
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SPEAKER_00: feel like we could step in and do a better job for whatever reason.
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SPEAKER_00: The firms that we do partner with,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that AI search is one of the biggest things these days.
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that it's as much of a problem as it is an opportunity,
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but that is definitely kind of that next iteration of search in
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the future.
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SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that's already there.
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So it's typically some mix of lack of performance or figuring
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out how do we
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strategically build upon this performance if we don't have the
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approach in place in
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SPEAKER_00: order to do so.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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Do you feel like it's still Google dominant or do you feel like
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search is spread
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SPEAKER_01: out a little bit more?
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SPEAKER_01: And I feel like it is,
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it would have to be like at least a little bit compared to
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three or four years ago.
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I saw a LinkedIn post today where people were discussing like
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how much superior
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SPEAKER_01: Gemini and Claude is over ChatGPT.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's like, am I behind the time still using ChatGPT?
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SPEAKER_01: It's kind of weird to think about.
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yeah it's that's a great question as well historically google
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has been so dominant
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to the point that there has really been no other factors in
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play now over the past
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couple of years and really like the past year specifically what
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we're seeing is
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that google is still the overwhelmingly dominant force but
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there are other players
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SPEAKER_00: in the space that are making
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SPEAKER_00: strides that have not been made in the past.
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SPEAKER_00: And what we're seeing is that it's likely to continue.
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SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say what that mix will end up being.
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But even when you look at AI search,
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people look at it oftentimes is almost
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grouping all of these different platforms like you mentioned
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together and the
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reality is they're all separate things and while there's plenty
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of overlap not just
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with google and ai search but google and all of these different
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platforms there's
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also things that are different so it's kind of that
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ever-changing space of being
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where the conversions are at right now but you need to be
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incorporating where the
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conversions are also at right now but maybe where they may
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continue to grow and be
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SPEAKER_00: a year from now.
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And it's kind of that proactive approach to it combined with
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where they're at right
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SPEAKER_00: now that usually is what we're seeing the best results with.
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We actually just had someone reach out to us yesterday who let
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us know they got a
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SPEAKER_00: big case through ChatGPT,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
9:02
So it's here now,
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but it will continue to grow as well from what we've seen.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
9:09
SPEAKER_01: and I,
9:10
SPEAKER_01: at the beginning of the year,
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SPEAKER_01: one of my clients,
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SPEAKER_01: we were looking at like their marketing sources and overwhelmingly,
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SPEAKER_01: like they were being attributed to organic search.
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SPEAKER_01: And like halfway through the year,
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I implemented some systems that would basically look at all of
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those organic search
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SPEAKER_01: leads and assign a more specific marketing source.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the year, our sources were more varied.
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SPEAKER_01: It was...
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SPEAKER_01: Google business listings specific by specific location.
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SPEAKER_01: It was AI search.
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SPEAKER_01: It was traffic from legal directories.
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And basically we took 50% of what we thought was coming through
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organic search
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SPEAKER_01: and just got more precise with how we were tracking.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's just really spread out,
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SPEAKER_01: which I think as marketers,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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I feel like we should all be appreciating this because Google
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had like effectively
10:04
SPEAKER_01: a marketing monopoly,
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SPEAKER_01: like everyone had to do what Google wanted was
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kind of ridiculous,
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almost looking back,
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you know,
10:11
is like,
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would this make Google mad?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, should we do this?
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SPEAKER_01: Would Google care?
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SPEAKER_01: And we're talking about changes, the homepage and whatnot.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's just like, end of story, they don't.
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And now these days,
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it's it really doesn't matter as much as it used to,
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which is nice.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And look, you still don't want to piss Google off.
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SPEAKER_00: They are a nightmare to deal with.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there's more things in place.
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SPEAKER_00: And that element of tracking really is so important because
10:37
Even if we look at it in its most basic form of like what's
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coming in through an
10:42
SPEAKER_00: organic search,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
10:45
A true representation of a lead through organic search isn't
10:49
somebody who Googled
10:50
the firm name because they knew they were looking for you and
10:53
then they clicked on
10:54
SPEAKER_00: your website.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: And because of that process, it counts as an organic search.
10:58
really what you want to understand or what people are finding
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us that weren't
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SPEAKER_00: specifically looking for us.
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SPEAKER_00: And then one step further as well,
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SPEAKER_00: like out of these keywords that we're ranking for,
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SPEAKER_00: which ones are actually converting?
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SPEAKER_00: Because there is value to site traffic and stuff like that.
11:14
But ultimately the approach I try to preach to people is that
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we need to understand
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not just the visibility that we have,
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but the visibility that is actually impactful.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's why you're so great as well.
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SPEAKER_00: When we're able to understand that data,
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we can understand how to be smarter with what we are using our
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resources on in the
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SPEAKER_00: future,
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targeting that stuff that's likely to convert versus the things
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that maybe look
11:37
SPEAKER_00: great on a traffic sheet or bringing in tons of calls,
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SPEAKER_00: but the calls aren't converting.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't really have like a firm question around this,
11:44
SPEAKER_01: but I'd like to like pick your brain about the damn directories.
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SPEAKER_01: Because as a fractional, like I'm managing people pretty much.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: That's 90% of what I do these days.
11:55
And I'm always managing people to update directories,
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check this listing,
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audit.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: It's just an ongoing project for every law firm I work for.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's so frustrating.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Can you speak to that?
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Like...
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SPEAKER_01: It's crazy how necessary is it?
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Should we do paid ones?
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SPEAKER_01: What do you got on directories?
12:14
SPEAKER_00: They are a nightmare.
12:16
And I'll say that's part of the thing that I love about Blue
12:19
Shark is we have
12:20
individuals that you would work with that are in each
12:23
department in like area
12:25
SPEAKER_00: within search as a whole.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: And so we have our entire team, we call them our off page SEO team.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the things,
12:33
SPEAKER_00: one of the handful of things that they focus their time on entirely.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: What we see is that it's very situational.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Now,
12:40
those directories love telling you that they will put your name
12:45
somewhere for 700
12:46
SPEAKER_00: bucks a month,
12:47
SPEAKER_00: but I encourage people to
12:49
SPEAKER_00: You know,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: when they see these emails come through or we're looking at directories,
12:53
SPEAKER_00: step one is like,
12:54
SPEAKER_00: what's the end goal out of it?
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Is it to be listed on there?
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Is it to say that we have a badge or is it to get a link?
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Whatever the case may be.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Even a lot of those paid ones,
13:03
you can obtain a lot of the SEO value in theory through the
13:06
link that oftentimes
13:07
SPEAKER_00: you don't have to pay to get.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: But from there, there's a lot of different factors.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: The directories and the value associated to the search, right?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: There are many examples where,
13:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:19
SPEAKER_00: for very niche searches,
13:20
SPEAKER_00: those directory listings may be one of the first results.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: And so is there value in being one of the first results
13:27
SPEAKER_00: in the directory that's ranking number one.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: You want to look at it on a case-by-case basis.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I usually,
13:33
SPEAKER_00: my answer,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: if someone's asking specifically,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: that's a partner of ours,
13:37
SPEAKER_00: I say,
13:37
SPEAKER_00: send it our way.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: We'll look at it and we'll make our recommendations.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: But those directories add up.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: I'll also say that we've seen that AI search likes to see you in certain
13:47
SPEAKER_00: directories,
13:49
SPEAKER_00: and they may reference that as a source of authority,
13:51
SPEAKER_00: right,
13:51
SPEAKER_00: or expertise.
13:53
even though lawyers know that typically that is not going to be
13:56
necessarily
13:57
SPEAKER_00: indicative of things.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: So it is that balance.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: We always encourage people,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: if you've already been doing them,
14:04
SPEAKER_00: let's look at the performance,
14:06
SPEAKER_00: right?
14:06
SPEAKER_00: It's all about tracking it at the end of the day,
14:09
but then also having a conversation that is ongoing about
14:13
everything that we're
14:14
SPEAKER_00: looking at and
14:15
trying to assess each one because I agree it is an important
14:18
thing to some extent.
14:20
And just because it's an important thing now doesn't mean it'll
14:22
be an important
14:23
thing down the line or maybe it's more important in that of the
14:26
search terms and
14:27
SPEAKER_00: the firms.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: So I echo your thoughts on directories.
14:30
They are not the most fun to deal with,
14:33
but kind of a necessary evil at times.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: And what I run into,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: which is interesting,
14:41
is the marketer who's assigned to work on the directories and
14:45
get quotes and talk
14:47
SPEAKER_01: to the teams.
14:48
A lot of times they'll come back to me and say like,
14:50
oh,
14:50
it's way too expensive.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like, well, what's the price?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: And then they're like $350 a month.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's not expensive in the games that we're playing.
15:00
And a lot of times these are marketers who are probably new to
15:04
the legal industry
15:05
SPEAKER_01: and how much we spend in that respect.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes I see law firms like,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: oh,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: we didn't go after those because they were too expensive.
15:12
And I'm like,
15:12
well,
15:13
let's talk actual real costs because those are so beneficial.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: They really are.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:18
And some of it depends right on like what do we have
15:21
holistically to invest?
15:23
Something that is not always easy to say off the jump is like
15:27
the idea of taking
15:29
SPEAKER_00: something that maybe is getting a positive ROI,
15:31
but trying to assess could we take that same level of resources
15:34
and get a more
15:35
SPEAKER_00: significant
15:36
SPEAKER_00: positive ROI.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So usually I always tell people,
15:40
SPEAKER_00: if you have the ability,
15:41
SPEAKER_00: let's try it,
15:41
SPEAKER_00: test it,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: track it,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: right?
15:43
And then use that data to make the assessment over a reasonable
15:46
period of time,
15:46
SPEAKER_00: because you're right.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: And even what's expensive or not expensive can range in situations.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: Well,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: what's interesting with legal directories is,
15:55
and just really with a lot of types of marketing is how
15:58
difficult they are to
15:58
SPEAKER_01: track.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of ambiguity in what we do.
16:03
And that's the kind of the weird lesson I have to teach
16:06
attorneys and their teams
16:08
SPEAKER_01: is like,
16:08
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
16:09
SPEAKER_01: we're getting a paid listing on this directory because it'll help us.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: But the leads are going to be garbage.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: Like every lead we track through this website is going to be just junk.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I guarantee it.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: Like I'll stake my career on it.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: We will not get a good lead from this website.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm so hard about that.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: And so it's funny because like in marketing,
16:29
a lot of times it seems like the game that we're playing isn't
16:32
the game that we're
16:32
SPEAKER_01: playing,
16:33
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
16:34
And you mentioned it earlier,
16:35
the best lawyer,
16:37
the Avvo websites and how you're listed there.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: It's just another algorithm, just like Google's that we're dealing with.
16:45
And it absolutely has nothing to do with being a good lawyer or
16:49
being a good law firm.
16:50
It has everything to do with kind of how you play that game on
16:53
that website.
16:54
And it's just this kind of weird conundrum of marketing where
16:58
what we're doing
17:00
SPEAKER_01: seems like we're doing it for one reason,
17:02
SPEAKER_01: but it's actually for another reason,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: but it's still going to benefit us.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: And it's just that there's so many things that are like that.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: And tracking just like can't, it can't show you the results.
17:11
Ultimately,
17:12
everybody's looking to track one thing and it's revenue,
17:15
right?
17:15
SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it's you can't pinpoint everything.
17:18
I know that that is very applicable in things like radio or
17:22
billboards or TV commercials,
17:24
right?
17:24
It is a very difficult thing to gauge,
17:26
but hopefully it holistically helps.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Similar to what you were saying,
17:30
SPEAKER_00: I was just on a call with a firm that we may partner up with who actually
17:34
SPEAKER_00: has a fantastic real world reputation,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: but hasn't done a good job of translating that digitally.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: And we're looking at the firms that are outperforming them.
17:42
And it's a bunch of people they haven't heard of and people
17:45
that are sending them
17:47
SPEAKER_00: the difficult cases.
17:48
But it's just because that other firm has done some of these
17:53
small things to teach
17:54
SPEAKER_00: that presence versus not looking at it really at all historically.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've seen a few law firms like that.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Strong offline presence, really poor digital presence.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: And you do need both.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Like you really can't get around like a strong Google business listing.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Well,
18:15
SPEAKER_01: and let me ask you this,
18:16
because I had this conversation with somebody recently because
18:19
I was going over an
18:20
SPEAKER_01: SEO report with them and it was all good news.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: The listing is doing good.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: The website is doing good.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: We're gaining in rankings.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: It's not perfect, but we're seeing growth and momentum.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: And they were like, well, that's interesting.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: They were like,
18:35
what I wanted to talk with you about this meeting is how many
18:38
unqualified leads we
18:39
SPEAKER_01: were getting.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: And I told him, I was like, these things aren't unconnected.
18:43
You're getting a lot of unqualified leads because of how well
18:48
the list of your
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Google business and your website is doing.
18:51
Cause when we tend to do well in Google,
18:54
we tend to catch all things,
18:56
all types of cases.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: Has that been your experience or like,
18:59
can you truly have targeted SEO where you only get the kind of
19:03
leads you want?
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is something that you see.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: And I suppose it depends on when we're saying how targeted,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: really what we mean,
19:14
SPEAKER_00: how targeted,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: because you can get very targeted with things.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: But of course, if you are trending in the right direction,
19:24
SPEAKER_00: it typically means that some of these less competitive keywords, right?
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're less competitive because they're garbage leads or calls,
19:31
SPEAKER_00: that visibility,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: you may start obtaining that first.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And it can be the positive spin is that it does mean that you are
19:39
SPEAKER_00: gaining traction, but it's not necessarily indicative of the end goal.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: So usually what we say when we're seeing that happen is,
19:47
SPEAKER_00: A,
19:47
like there is value in having traffic come through to your site
19:50
where Google is
19:51
SPEAKER_00: able to see that you are a source of authority and information.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: And if the
19:58
SPEAKER_00: leads that are coming through are truly that bad.
20:00
And especially if it's a situation where we don't see a world
20:03
where it could be a
20:03
SPEAKER_00: good one,
20:04
maybe you want to mitigate call to actions on that page or take
20:08
small steps.
20:09
But it is a point where the first leads that you get through
20:13
your digital presence
20:14
SPEAKER_00: are not likely to be home runs.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's the deal that you have to make to get the good ones.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: But also making sure that you have a strong intake team in place.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: If you don't already have one,
20:24
maybe that would be a good time to start thinking of some sort
20:27
of process so that
20:28
SPEAKER_00: It is not your personal cell getting a phone call at like 1130 p.m.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: at night.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: That's a garbage lead.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: So it is,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: to your point,
20:39
the positive spin is that it's typically something that means
20:41
you're trending in
20:42
SPEAKER_00: the right direction.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Of course,
20:44
the caveat being that you continue to trend in the right
20:47
direction and that doesn't
20:48
SPEAKER_00: remain the status quo.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: I think back to,
20:53
SPEAKER_01: I heard the story,
20:54
SPEAKER_01: I think on Reddit,
20:55
SPEAKER_01: but there is a company called,
20:57
SPEAKER_01: and I don't know if they still exist,
20:58
SPEAKER_01: but it was like reputation.com and they're,
21:02
SPEAKER_01: they had ads on radio.
21:04
I remember hearing them on the radio where they were basically
21:08
saying like,
21:09
SPEAKER_01: we'll clean up your online reputation.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: And the story goes like this person,
21:14
like this individual who posted this had a photo out of or
21:19
something on the
21:20
SPEAKER_01: internet and they wanted it taken down.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it was particularly lewd.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: They just didn't like it.
21:25
And they called reputation.com and ultimately like what they
21:29
found out they're just
21:30
SPEAKER_01: like an SEO company.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't, they weren't like a reputation thing.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: It was just like an SEO play.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: And I always think of that, like, cause in a way the marketing was good.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: They were talking to like online reputation, SEO.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: I kind of see the connection,
21:45
but they also like attracted people who thought it was a more
21:50
specific type of
21:51
SPEAKER_01: service anyway.
21:53
When it comes to something like accidents and injuries,
21:56
that could be so many things.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: It could be somebody who was at fault for the accident.
22:03
It could be somebody who slipped and fell and you don't take
22:06
slip and fall cases.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Assuming,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:09
that you don't have product liability pages on your site and
22:13
getting traffic for
22:13
SPEAKER_01: that.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: But like, even within the category of I was hurt and it wasn't my fault.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: There's so many different types of accidents and
22:22
SPEAKER_01: I think the issue has always been like,
22:24
people don't know what they're looking for when they need an
22:26
attorney like that.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: And they don't know,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: we know what keywords we want to rank for,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: but they don't know what keywords to use.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: To your point, that's also a great point.
22:37
And I'll clarify one of the things that you want to do to bring
22:40
the right traffic in.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And what we do is you essentially want to teach the search engines,
22:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:46
SPEAKER_00: exactly who you are and who you're looking to help.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: So you certainly don't,
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Do yourself any favor if you don't want a slip and fall case,
22:53
but you are putting tons of content on your site about a slip
22:56
and fall case,
22:57
SPEAKER_00: right?
22:58
SPEAKER_00: And then getting very specific.
22:59
Maybe one of the best things that you can do to find the right
23:02
audience is to
23:03
SPEAKER_00: produce that very specific information.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: So,
23:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:07
that element of your website and your Google business profile
23:10
are those two
23:11
SPEAKER_00: opportunities to teach
23:13
Google,
23:13
or really any of these AI search platforms as well,
23:16
who you are and who you can help.
23:18
So being intentional about the information that you provide,
23:22
I think is huge.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: And I almost forget what that original question was that you asked,
23:26
SPEAKER_00: but I think that was along the lines of what you were thinking,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: because it comes back to information at the end of the day.
23:33
I just,
23:33
I guess,
23:34
and maybe I need to sit down and like write my thoughts out.
23:37
But like when it comes to marketing,
23:39
my thoughts are,
23:40
if you're good at it,
23:40
you're good at it.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: And if you're good at attracting leads,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: you'll attract all kinds of leads,
23:46
SPEAKER_01: including those you don't want.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And so unqualified leads, I guess I'm thinking aren't necessarily bad.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: No, I do agree.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I also agree.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: And look, before you can rank for slip and fall, right?
23:59
If you're killing it,
24:00
you're going to show up for a injury lawyer search term,
24:04
right?
24:04
SPEAKER_00: That is a great problem to have for ranking number one for injury lawyer,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: personal injury,
24:09
SPEAKER_00: car accident,
24:09
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
24:10
And you're getting a bunch of unqualified leads coming through
24:14
because I promise
24:15
SPEAKER_00: you the good ones are coming with that as well.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: So yes,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: your point,
24:18
it's a great problem to have if Google views you as such an
24:20
authoritative presence
24:22
SPEAKER_00: that you're collecting a lot of that stuff as well.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Well,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: and I think that's the other part,
24:27
like the other side of SEO that a lot of attorneys don't think
24:29
about when they're
24:30
SPEAKER_01: just getting started,
24:31
SPEAKER_01: which is like,
24:32
SPEAKER_01: how,
24:33
SPEAKER_01: like once it's working,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: like how important,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: and you already mentioned it,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: like phones and intake are.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Cause if you don't have somebody on the phones,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: collecting information,
24:43
SPEAKER_01: documenting your leaky bucket.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: And if you,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: anyway,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: so it's one of those things,
24:49
SPEAKER_01: like if you go after SEO and you do really well,
24:54
SPEAKER_01: you will get a lot of leads.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: And if, when you start getting a lot of leads,
24:58
SPEAKER_01: you have to have ways of handling them and then staffing an intake team.
25:01
I feel like attorneys don't realize that or try to replace a
25:04
person with AI or something.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: And look,
25:06
it's also part of the reason why digital or just SEO in general
25:11
isn't for every
25:11
SPEAKER_00: firm out there,
25:12
SPEAKER_00: right?
25:13
You may be a very boutique firm and you collect all your cases
25:16
through referrals
25:17
SPEAKER_00: and you're not really looking to grow or...
25:19
SPEAKER_00: necessarily need to implement all these things.
25:21
So that's always part of what that initial conversation that we
25:24
like to have is
25:25
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:25
SPEAKER_00: are we even a good fit?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Because in situations where we may not be a good fit,
25:30
SPEAKER_00: even if we bring somebody on,
25:33
SPEAKER_00: we partnered with them,
25:33
SPEAKER_00: we achieve all of these goals.
25:35
If that's not really what the firm is looking for,
25:38
then it doesn't matter.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately it does nobody any good.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: So I agree, but it also is just not for everybody.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: For everybody listening, Tiffany's birthday was yesterday.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: It was yesterday as well.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Happy belated birthday.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Are you accusing me of being hungover or something?
25:55
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not too bad.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: I did go out to like a really nice little noodle place in Culpeper.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: You're local, so you'll know where Culpeper is.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was so good.
26:06
And like my husband,
26:08
like he was going to go out to dinner tomorrow and I was in the
26:11
kitchen.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: He was listening to him cancel a dinner.
26:14
He was planning on attending tomorrow because he was still full
26:18
today from what we
26:18
SPEAKER_01: ate last night.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, oh my gosh.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: As a local, I'd love to hear what was the spot.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I'll have to look it up.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Cause I don't remember the name.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Like he picked it.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: I like to shove my brain off after work.
26:33
I just,
26:33
I'm just like,
26:34
just put a blindfold on and like husband lead me through life.
26:38
You know,
26:38
I'm that kind of person sometimes,
26:39
but no,
26:40
it was delicious though.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: I'll look it up after we get off the podcast.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: It was so good.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Do you go out to the cold pepper out this way very often?
26:48
I grew up in Northern Virginia out in Manassas,
26:51
and we're getting so niche now for anybody.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Any Northern Virginians are locked in right now.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Manassas, so I have a lot of family out in that area.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: Just the general,
27:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know that you'd call it,
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Northern Virginia area,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: down to Richmond,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: that whole type of thing.
27:05
I'm all up in everywhere there every once in a while,
27:09
but spend the majority of my time in D.C.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: or as far as the metro will take me.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:16
kind of want to boo you for that but boo like dc yeah honestly
27:21
it's i'm like kind
27:22
of the opposite i can't think of the last time i actually been
27:25
into dc oh i would
27:26
have to sit here and think about it because it's probably been
27:30
like two years and
27:31
surely it was for a concert or something i remember driving
27:34
into dc once we're not
27:35
talking about marketing anymore nor will the podcast super
27:38
brunt i drove into dc
27:40
SPEAKER_01: once for a concert
27:42
And didn't plan parking in advance because I was young and
27:45
dumb,
27:46
I guess.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: And got to the concert venue,
27:49
SPEAKER_01: could not find a parking,
27:50
SPEAKER_01: could not find parking like within miles.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: And we were so late at that point and the tickets were cheap.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: I was like, just let's go home.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Let's go home.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm giving up.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, you really turned around.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: The parking out here is nuts.
28:03
The worst purchase that I made post-grad was buying a car
28:07
because I quickly
28:08
SPEAKER_00: realized that not just the cost of like having it out here in general,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: but the time it takes to park.
28:16
Oftentimes when you're driving somewhere,
28:18
you might as well have just walked.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: So I feel you,
28:21
SPEAKER_00: you need to,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: they got apps,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: they got all that stuff these days,
28:24
SPEAKER_00: but the Metro,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Metro next time.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: That's my advice.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the metro is pretty solid.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Like I've been on a few subways and metro is definitely the best.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: I'll hype it.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not gross.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: New York was gross.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Better than New York.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Better than New York.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely better than New York.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
28:44
I'm trying to think like,
28:45
how are we going to bring this back to marketing?
28:47
SPEAKER_01: So what are your plans for this year?
28:49
Like,
28:50
maybe not necessarily Blue Shark,
28:51
but are you doing anything special?
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Going to events, speaking, anything like that?
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: the past couple of years,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: for me,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: I've really,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: really enjoyed being up on stage and doing speaking.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: For me,
29:03
SPEAKER_00: one of those things that I'm passionate about,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: similar to what we were talking about earlier,
29:06
SPEAKER_00: I think that there is just so much,
29:08
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
29:09
SPEAKER_00: that firms can do to compete.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: But I think there's so much that firms can do themselves,
29:13
SPEAKER_00: whether they're working with an agency or not,
29:16
SPEAKER_00: that they don't realize because they don't
29:18
have that information to do so i like to go out and speak on a
29:21
lot of that stuff as
29:23
well as more in-depth strategies and that's going to be the
29:26
case for this next year
29:27
as well i think i'll be on stage out at ntl towards the end of
29:31
january if anybody's
29:32
going to be out there and hopefully seven or eight times
29:37
throughout the year would
29:37
be great something like that and then on the road who knows how
29:41
many times
29:42
SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
29:44
there's anybody who's listening who's also attending
29:47
conferences knows that there
29:48
SPEAKER_00: are more conferences out there than needed,
29:53
SPEAKER_00: but plenty of trips,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: a great way to see cool places.
29:57
And then that's definitely the biggest thing for me,
30:00
I would suppose this year.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: I I've said this on the podcast before,
30:06
SPEAKER_01: and I feel like my listeners are going to get tired of hearing me,
30:08
SPEAKER_01: but I'm doing four events this year and I'm really looking forward to it.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: Cause I need to get out of the house more.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Like I work from home.
30:15
My whole team basically work from home and it's just gets to be
30:21
like cabin fever a little bit.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: I always think of the Muppets treasure Island movie.
30:24
You'll have to let me know where you're going to be when you
30:27
mentioned the Pilma
30:28
SPEAKER_00: for AI or the AI one.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's out in Florida, right?
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:36
I'm going to try to go to the Legal Marketing Association one
30:40
in New Orleans.
30:42
And then I'm registered for,
30:43
I think I'm registered for the Lottie Gras one.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: And confusingly, it's in San Diego.
30:50
Like,
30:50
why did you name your event Lottie Gras and put it in San Diego
30:53
for real?
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Once you go, you'll know why.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: So that's Bob's event.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: When you go, you'll know.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Well,
31:00
SPEAKER_01: I know it's Lottie draw theme,
31:02
SPEAKER_01: but it's just like,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: why wouldn't you put it in New Orleans?
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: He must just live out there, which I get it.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so that's what I'm planning on going to this year.
31:13
And I'm speaking at a mastermind virtually and actually
31:17
speaking virtually like a
31:19
SPEAKER_01: few times and probably the GLM summit.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm always like, I always am like, it's a coin toss.
31:27
If I think Ben and Brian are going to let me back in because I
31:30
feel like I would
31:30
show up to the events and act really annoying and I leave and
31:34
they're just like,
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: I'll say in the times that I've heard you,
31:38
SPEAKER_00: but also everything that you talk about,
31:40
SPEAKER_00: I know you're active on LinkedIn.
31:42
I really appreciate being able not only just to like see your
31:46
thought process,
31:46
but see the thought process and also know that thought process
31:50
is very sound.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: It's reasoned.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: It's all the right things because people like you,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: when we're able to work with firms that like have you,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: it makes our lives a lot easier because we're
32:03
SPEAKER_00: We can only do so much as an agency without that collaboration.
32:07
And the ability to collaborate with the firm is so big for our
32:11
ability to not just
32:13
SPEAKER_00: like do well,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: but do beyond that point.
32:16
And so I would encourage anybody to go listen to you because
32:21
I'm sure that is going
32:22
SPEAKER_00: to be great information.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, if they're listening to this podcast, they know that.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: They're this far into the episode, I guess.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, hopefully.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: That's a noodle conversation that they're still, then they're fans.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Now everyone's wondering where this amazing noodle place in Culpepper is.
32:39
I need to go leave a review and hype them up because it was
32:41
really that good.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate that.
32:44
When I first started fractional CMOing,
32:46
I wasn't sure how the vendors would take it.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: It's a newish thing.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, definitely new to me and kind of my corner of the world.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: And by and large,
32:56
SPEAKER_01: like just what I figured out is,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I can be a resource that helps where...
33:02
SPEAKER_01: The SEO companies can't because scope is limited.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: And generally,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I haven't really had bad experiences with too many vendors,
33:10
SPEAKER_01: except the ones that are obviously not doing really well.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: When I joined an account, those people usually kind of hate me.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, the real ones like you guys.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: You can't hide success.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:21
And ultimately having more ability like to collaborate and
33:27
create that success,
33:29
because ultimately if you're coming in and you're uncovering
33:32
things that aren't
33:32
SPEAKER_00: working well,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: it was just a matter of time anyways,
33:35
SPEAKER_00: until those things get uncovered.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Even the ability,
33:39
SPEAKER_00: if they aren't working well,
33:40
to maybe collaborate and figure out what needs to happen in
33:43
order to fix it.
33:43
It's a win-win because we are all on the same team when it
33:46
comes to that stuff.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: And we all have the same goals.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: So that's why we view that as super, super helpful.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I try not to be competitive.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like those,
33:56
I try to make those days behind me because I've always been
33:58
kind of a competitive
33:59
SPEAKER_01: person,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: but there are so many egos and marketing that like,
34:03
SPEAKER_01: it's just give it up.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: Just give it up and treat it like a sports team or a basketball team.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: Like everyone's working towards the same goal.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: And I don't even care who has the ideas these days.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a shameful thing as a marketer to admit,
34:15
but I'm perfectly happy implementing somebody else's ideas just
34:19
as long as we're
34:20
SPEAKER_01: getting something done and we're getting the results in.
34:22
So yeah,
34:23
and it's just nicer when you can collaborate and be friends
34:26
with everyone.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Will, for being on the podcast today.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: And I'm trying to think of other questions to ask you.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to go over?
34:38
SPEAKER_00: No.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what?
34:39
I would be curious to hear what you have found makes an agency
34:46
a good relationship
34:48
SPEAKER_00: or a poor relationship.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:50
are there things that you have seen that you really want an
34:54
agency or just any
34:55
SPEAKER_00: vendor to bring to the table?
34:59
SPEAKER_01: For me, man, that is weirdly a hard question to answer.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
35:03
SPEAKER_01: for companies like Blue Shark and some of the other ones,
35:08
SPEAKER_01: like honestly,
35:09
SPEAKER_01: like I'm happy with what you guys are doing.
35:11
And a lot of times the obstacles I'm overcoming is trying to
35:15
teach the law firm
35:16
SPEAKER_01: owners,
35:16
SPEAKER_01: like this is what an SEO company does.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: What they're saying is right here.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: Let's just continue to support them.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Honestly,
35:24
that's kind of mostly what I'm doing is like training the law
35:27
firm owners and not
35:28
SPEAKER_01: like whipping the SEO company into shape.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a shameful confession.
35:32
It's only in instances where I step in and the company isn't
35:36
doing what they're
35:36
SPEAKER_01: supposed to be and the results are really poor and the company's been,
35:40
SPEAKER_01: or the vendor's been doing the same thing for a long time.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: And if that's the situation,
35:44
I try to change that really quick and bring in a vendor like
35:48
Blue Shark or like
35:49
SPEAKER_01: somebody else that I trust and does what they're supposed to do.
35:53
So like my expectations are pretty mild because really,
35:56
I just want you to be an SEO company.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that's a lot of a lot of companies do great at that.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: And I can appreciate that.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'll say,
36:05
SPEAKER_00: to be fair,
36:06
SPEAKER_00: at times,
36:06
SPEAKER_00: it can go both ways where the expect,
36:09
SPEAKER_00: I think that it does fall on the agency to set the right expectations,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: whether they're set and maintained,
36:16
SPEAKER_00: because who knows how people in seven months from now,
36:19
SPEAKER_00: right,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: is who knows what's remembered from those initial calls.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: But I do think that it's important as an agency to set an expectation,
36:25
SPEAKER_00: because if an agency tells people
36:28
SPEAKER_00: somebody that three months is going to move mountains, right?
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Even if you're trending in the right direction,
36:34
I wouldn't say it's always wrong if we're five months in and
36:37
things may be going
36:38
SPEAKER_00: well,
36:38
SPEAKER_00: but if that expectation had been set,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: that mountains would be moved.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's even another thing to point towards from you, right?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: If maybe somebody's out there and they're saying that you can do X,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: Y,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: and Z,
36:50
SPEAKER_00: and it doesn't add up across the board,
36:52
SPEAKER_00: right?
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Those types of things that are not...
36:55
on the agency or on the firm to know whether they're being told
36:59
things or not that
36:59
SPEAKER_00: are unreasonable.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:03
Well,
37:03
there's so much nuance too in this space and I learn shit every
37:06
day.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: So like I shouldn't cuss,
37:08
SPEAKER_01: but I always forget that when I'm recording the podcast,
37:10
but I'll learn a new SEO thing that I just spent two minutes
37:15
ago arguing with the
37:16
SPEAKER_01: vendor about.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden I feel bad,
37:18
but this is an ever evolving space and we just got to be open
37:22
and talk and
37:23
SPEAKER_01: communicate and push back and give.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: When you're working with an SEO, nobody's perfect, but as long as we're
37:31
SPEAKER_01: you know, doing things.
37:32
And that's primarily what I try to do is just make sure
37:34
everyone continues to do things.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: The strategy that you're looking at,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: I tell everybody,
37:39
the strategy that we're looking at right now is going to be
37:42
different than the
37:42
SPEAKER_00: strategy that we're looking at a year from now,
37:44
SPEAKER_00: because if nothing else,
37:45
SPEAKER_00: we'll have more information.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: But even all of the things like AI in particular, it evolves so quickly.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: You can only reasonably predict to a certain point.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: And the most important thing that is,
37:56
SPEAKER_00: is that as you learn the information and you see the data,
37:58
SPEAKER_00: you adjust.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: So I fully agree there.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: I have a few AI marketing plans I made roughly 12 months ago.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm super embarrassed about now.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, so wrong.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: That was the best of what we knew at the time, you know?
38:10
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: All right.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Will.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Where do you want people to go to look you up to learn more about you?
38:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, obviously LinkedIn's a great spot.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Last name spelled M-C-C-R-E-I-G-H-T.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Feel free to shoot me over a message on there, connect with me, whatever.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Or if you want to set up some time to chat.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Of course,
38:30
SPEAKER_00: you can go to our website,
38:32
SPEAKER_00: bluesharkdigital.com,
38:33
SPEAKER_00: blue spelled B-L-U,
38:35
SPEAKER_00: sharkdigital.com,
38:37
SPEAKER_00: and fill out a request to speak with us.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: And you can mention my name and we'll get in touch.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: But otherwise, just connect with me.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Come find me out in the wild.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Like I said earlier, I'll be the tall guy probably at the conference.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: So looking forward to connecting with everybody out there.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And you need to get some meta glasses.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: You'll have a real good footage of every event probably.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: From a point of view above everybody's heads.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: Well,
39:04
thank you so much again and look forward to seeing you sometime
39:08
this year at some
39:10
SPEAKER_01: event,
39:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: And thanks everyone for listening.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Tiffany.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: Bye.