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Return to Form: Pilates, Pelvic Health, and Rebuilding Trust With Your Body · Empowered + Well

• 0:16
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Welcome back to the Empowered and Well Podcast, the show where we have real honest conversations about what it actually means to feel strong, healthy, and at home in your body. I'm Amanda Gargiulo, and as always, I'm here with my co-host and one of my absolute favorite humans, Lauren Brown.
• 0:33
  [Lauren Brown]: Hey everyone, so glad you're here with us today. We have such a good one for you. This conversation honestly had me thinking about my own relationship with my body in a way I didn't expect and I think it's going to land for a lot of you. Whether you're coming back from an injury, navigating a big life transition, or just feeling a little disconnected from yourself lately, this episode is for you.
• 0:59
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Our guest today is Rachel Robertson, a kinesiologist, Pilates instructor, and the founder of Return to Form. She also competed at the World Kettlebell Lifting Championships representing Team Canada.
• 1:10
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: She works at the intersection of physio and real life, and she is deeply passionate about helping people rebuild trust with their bodies.
• 1:11
  [Lauren Brown]: Okay.
• 1:18
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: We are so excited to have her. Rachel, welcome to the show, and thank you for taking the time to get to know myself, Lauren, and all of our listeners.
• 1:26
  [Rachel Robertson]: Thank you for having me.
• 1:27
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: I'm so excited. um So Lauren and i love to do something a little bit off the cuff and fun and unscripted before we start. Are you down to do a little bit of rapid fire this or that so that we can all get to know you a little bit better?
• 1:40
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: All right.
• 1:41
  [Rachel Robertson]: Sounds good. Let's go.
• 1:42
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Awesome. Okay. So here we go. just First thing that comes to mind, beach vacation or a mountain escape?
• 1:49
  [Rachel Robertson]: Mountain Escape.
• 1:51
  [Lauren Brown]: What's a song that immediately puts you in a good mood no matter what?
• 1:56
  [Rachel Robertson]: I saw the sign. Ace of base.
• 2:00
  [Lauren Brown]: There you go. Oh my gosh. I love that.
• 2:04
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: who doesn't love me who took me back okay
• 2:09
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: what's a food you can eat every single day okay
• 2:13
  [Rachel Robertson]: Rice. But it has to be white sticky rice.
• 2:19
  [Lauren Brown]: This one I'm to ask because I always like a good recommendation. what show are you currently watching or re-watching?
• 2:26
  [Rachel Robertson]: Grey's Anatomy because my daughters love doctor shows, specifically if there's a pregnancy and a delivery.
• 2:35
  [Lauren Brown]: Oh, all right.
• 2:36
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: but Have they watched The Pit? Do you let them watch The Pit?
• 2:38
  [Rachel Robertson]: No, everyone keeps telling me I got find that one.
• 2:41
  [Lauren Brown]: I've been watching that. That's one that's... ive you know
• 2:43
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh, it's so good. Okay. um What's a wellness trend that you secretly think is overrated?
• 2:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: wow.
• 2:54
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: know, I'm going right for the juicy stuff right there, but this is like one of my favorite questions to ask.
• 3:00
  [Rachel Robertson]: Cold plunges.
• 3:01
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Ooh, Lauren, did I hit you? ha, ha, ha.
• 3:05
  [Lauren Brown]: No.
• 3:06
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Lauren, did that one upset you?
• 3:08
  [Lauren Brown]: know
• 3:09
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Okay.
• 3:10
  [Lauren Brown]: I mean, because honestly, if you look at anything that's going on with like how it relates to women's bodies, it's like you don't need to go a little like 55 degrees, which for me, open water swim in 55 degree weather.
• 3:17
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: No good.
• 3:21
  [Lauren Brown]: that's obviously not a cold plunge to me. So all good.
• 3:23
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 3:25
  [Lauren Brown]: All right. So what's something you believed about the body 10 years ago that you've completely changed your mind on?
• 3:31
  [Rachel Robertson]: Oh, there's so many. But one that was like, um when I first did my like Pilates training, um I interpreted that you could 100% avoid a diastasis recti.
• 3:33
  [Lauren Brown]: Okay.
• 3:48
  [Rachel Robertson]: And then I got pregnant and then learned from the physiotherapist I was working with that everyone will get a little bit.
• 3:55
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Yeah. Oh, so much to talk about. i just saw on Instagram, I know this is terrible, like quoting Instagram, but there was a woman wearing like a human body kind of outfit, like a onesie, one z once jumpsuit and she's pregnant and she actually cut like that, the her core just to show you what happens to your abs.
• 4:12
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: it was so interesting.
• 4:12
  [Rachel Robertson]: Oh, cool.
• 4:12
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Like it was pretty cool. I'll send it to you. was really cool.
• 4:15
  [Rachel Robertson]: Okay.
• 4:15
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Okay. i Should I, should I make this the last one Lauren? Cause I can keep going. Yeah.
• 4:21
  [Lauren Brown]: We'll do we'll do one more and then we'll we'll jump into the real conversation because I know we've got a lot of a lot of questions for you and we want to get to as as much as possible.
• 4:30
  [Rachel Robertson]: Sounds good.
• 4:30
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Okay. What do you wish more people asked you about?
• 4:35
  [Rachel Robertson]: Hmm.
• 4:40
  [Rachel Robertson]: Oh, that's a tough one. um i don't really feel like they should ask me specifically, I think is what it is. i think For me, because I'm more about being of service, it's like, what does this client need to know? And then I'm going to go research it. It's not that I am the queen bee of anything. I know it's good for us to focus, um but there's also the adaptability of meeting the client where they are at, which is where that comes from.
• 5:13
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 5:13
  [Lauren Brown]: I love that. that's like That's a very important perspective to have. And the reality that even though I think sometimes like People think as fitness professionals, like you should know all the answers and you should have things figured out.
• 5:26
  [Lauren Brown]: And when a client comes to you and asks you something, it's like being able to know that you can go and look into things and bring it back to your clients. So, yeah,
• 5:36
  [Rachel Robertson]: And we're always learning. So if I'm always learning, I won't necessarily always have the answers.
• 5:42
  [Lauren Brown]: no, that's like, that's an, that's an impossible goal or expectation. so yeah.
• 5:47
  [Rachel Robertson]: Mm-hmm.
• 5:51
  [Lauren Brown]: Kind of jumping into things, ah the name Return to Form, so your your brand, right, is really intentional. Can you tell us what that phrase means to you and how it shaped the philosophy behind your practice?
• 6:08
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah. um So how it came about was um i had been working for someone else as a contractor. And as many of us do, we decide to go out on our own. And originally, I had kind of branded myself as Pilates is my lifestyle.
• 6:26
  [Rachel Robertson]: But I no longer felt that It resonated. So we were sitting here in Canada a Tim Hortons drawing on a napkin and we were making points like, well, what do I do? I'm a kinesiologist, Pilates, reformer, no, no, no, And like playing with these words. and my husband was like, reformer, reform, reformer.
• 6:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: returned form and he actually being able to know what I do was able to create it. And then working with my web designer, she kind of, so the symbol we use is just an arrow that loops around, but it's kind of, to me, the more and more time I've spent under this brand is bringing the individual back to themselves.
• 7:17
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 7:17
  [Rachel Robertson]: Because I feel so many people feel lost in their body and it's not their fault. But i just want people to feel home.
• 7:28
  [Rachel Robertson]: And part of my journey is feeling home in my own body. And I can use that experience to carry over to other people.
• 7:39
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: I love that. I actually so we've been throwing out the word kinesiology. Before we dive into kind of more about your philosophy and what it looks like to work with you, can you actually break down what the word kinesiology means and how you apply it in your practice?
• 7:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah, so kinesiology is the study of human movement. So we are looking at a variety of nuances, biomechanics, so the physics of human movement.
• 7:57
  [Lauren Brown]: you want.
• 8:04
  [Rachel Robertson]: We're looking at the physiology. So it's not uncommon for someone to come to us with diabetes or heart disease. And it's like, well, what would we physically with human movement do to improve these nuances within the body?
• 8:19
  [Rachel Robertson]: So there's the chemical responses that occur within the body. And then there's the physiological responses and the biomechanical responses. And it's the study of it.
• 8:30
  [Rachel Robertson]: So there can be multiple, just like physiotherapists, there can be multiple kinesiologists, but we'll have different focuses. So for me, my focus is very much...
• 8:37
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 8:40
  [Rachel Robertson]: so um, injury recovery, which can include sports, but on average, my people tend to be older population. So repetitive use injuries, just aging.
• 8:53
  [Rachel Robertson]: So osteoporosis, arthritis, menopause, prenatal, postnatal, just because that became a huge interest for me as I went through it.
• 9:03
  [Rachel Robertson]: Um, and so I'm just taking movement and applying it to those scenarios. Um,
• 9:09
  [Lauren Brown]: So shifting a little bit, just because this this concept is interesting to me when it comes to also like injury and coming back. So you competed at the World Cattlebell Lifting Championship, champion lita championships, can't talk, representing Team Canada.
• 9:26
  [Lauren Brown]: So how does your identity as an athlete shape how you show up for clients who feel disconnected from their own athletic identity? And something that I kind of want to layer in here is that like as athletes, when you're coming back from an injury or you're going through an injury, it it feels like a total loss of identity, right? Like when you're unable to train the way you're used to training. And then all of a sudden you're like, who am I? I can no longer do this. And it's,
• 9:57
  [Lauren Brown]: it's a very like unsettling feeling for a lot of people. So when you're working with clients who feel that disconnection, how, how do you support them?
• 10:08
  [Rachel Robertson]: Well, not only have I competed at a high level, I've also just had some ridiculous injuries. Like just bringing back that human component of it.
• 10:16
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh my
• 10:20
  [Rachel Robertson]: I have been hit by a motor vehicle, another motor vehicle by a drunk driver.
• 10:20
  [Lauren Brown]: Yeah.
• 10:25
  [Rachel Robertson]: I literally just last year rehabbed my foot because I was walking to the grocery store and gravel gave out and I completely tore the side of my foot.
• 10:36
  [Rachel Robertson]: um I got mummy thumb having a baby and carrying them.
• 10:36
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 10:36
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: goodness.
• 10:41
  [Rachel Robertson]: So mummy thumb is like that constant wrist action, picking up the baby. um Changes in our body causes injury. Fatigue. So again, going back to motherhood and not sleeping and then and then you're still being active and then you start injuring yourself because you're not getting proper sleep and nutrition.
• 10:59
  [Rachel Robertson]: All of it together has integrated into my work in the sense of...
• 11:06
  [Lauren Brown]: It's kind of like...
• 11:07
  [Rachel Robertson]: passion in the sense of empathy, in the sense of pain is invisible and no one knows it's happening because there have been times people look at me and they're like, well, you're an athlete. What would you know? um I've also experienced the same with, oh, you've always been thin. Yeah.
• 11:30
  [Rachel Robertson]: And it's like, you may not know what I looked like before and the journey I had to go through losing weight and body image issues, like all of those components, which make us each not only unique and individual, they make us human, but it allows me to be in the room with someone and be compassionate because it's not for me to judge them.
• 12:01
  [Rachel Robertson]: Does
• 12:05
  [Rachel Robertson]: that answer your question?
• 12:05
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Are you, yeah.
• 12:07
  [Lauren Brown]: Yeah.
• 12:07
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: So there's like so much that you just kind of dove into and I really want to know if it's okay if I go back a little bit, can you tell us a little bit about your backgrounds and what got you to just like to this point?
• 12:19
  [Rachel Robertson]: Again, there's so much.
• 12:20
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Okay.
• 12:21
  [Rachel Robertson]: um So a big component of me really, really caring is I grew up with a very ill brother. He just had a genetic disorder. He passed away when he was eight years old and I was 14. And there was a component of it where I wanted to help him and I couldn't.
• 12:44
  [Rachel Robertson]: But it has led to my work of helping others. And one of the hardest things in the room, being in the room, is you can't always fix it.
• 12:56
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 12:58
  [Rachel Robertson]: And that's where, as a practitioner, I actually have to step back and ask myself, is this my problem to fix? I can hold space for the individual. I can give them the information, but I cannot necessarily fix it for them.
• 13:16
  [Rachel Robertson]: But that has been a big component of me just wanting to find a profession where I could help others. um My body image issues. um don't I don't like the phrasing of how I just said that, but um having to deal with some of those stories and and experiences has also not only taught me how to deal so I can teach others, but also give the compassion of the difficulties of it and not only the physiological experiences that go with it, but the mental experiences.
• 13:54
  [Rachel Robertson]: um the mental load of trying to lose weight or maintain weight.
• 13:54
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 13:58
  [Rachel Robertson]: And then there's just injuries. Like one of the hardest parts about motor vehicle accidents is many of us were not the cause of the accident and we were the victim and then trying to learn to get out of the victim mindset because I've totally have been there. So I can understand where many of the clients are coming from.
• 14:21
  [Lauren Brown]: Yeah, it's, a thank you for everything that you just shared, number one, because i think it's important for people to understand where we come from as coaches and trainers and the reality that it's easy to look at the surface and be like,
• 14:41
  [Lauren Brown]: Rachel's been a competitive athlete. She's in shape. She's a mom. she's maybe Maybe people look at it and say, you've got it all together. And then the story behind what got you to where you are at is like a huge part of who you are and what you bring as a coach. So thank you for sharing that.
• 14:58
  [Rachel Robertson]: Thank you.
• 14:58
  [Lauren Brown]: And then when we're looking at, like so you kind of started talking about this. So when you have a client that comes to you and is feeling like their body doesn't feel like their own anymore.
• 15:12
  [Lauren Brown]: What, like, can we look at that as a physiological standpoint of what might be going on and then a little bit more of like beneath the surface, what's going on and how you might approach that for a client who's coming to you dealing with this feeling?
• 15:27
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah, so like sometimes it's just experience, right? So we often can look at older female populations and physical activity was just not part of their lifestyle.
• 15:38
  [Rachel Robertson]: So therefore, did they actually ever learn to move and be physically active? They might keep busy, it's one thing, and going for a walk to them might feel like physical activity because in comparison, the other nuances just were never introduced to them. So one, it's kind of teaching many people just how to mechanically move correctly.
• 16:05
  [Rachel Robertson]: So often when someone comes in, I look at the basics. How do they squat? How do they hinge? How do they pull? How do they push? And then it's about teaching them how to start those movements. um Then there is the...
• 16:22
  [Rachel Robertson]: psychological piece of it in the sense of are they ready because they they might come in and they might not be ready so then those clients usually leave and then they come back again because they need to make it a priority and there's just for whatever reason a variety of factors that just might not make it a priority at that time as much as they want it um
• 16:48
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 16:49
  [Rachel Robertson]: But then there's also how stress plays into it So just the other day, i assessed someone, they came in with arthritis.
• 17:00
  [Rachel Robertson]: And they were like, i don't think I'm stressed. But a lot of the things they were describing sounded very stress related. So it's about having conversations about can we manage the stress to allow movement better? And what I mean by that is stress causes Neurological tension in our muscles and in our joints. And people will, a prime example is sitting at a computer concentrating and your shoulders go up towards your ears and you're just like typing away or whatever. and people don't even know. And so many of my clients say to me, Rachel, I hear your voice when I'm like at work, relax your shoulders, because they carry that tension around and they don't know it. So it's kind of teaching them to recognize the signs so that they can move appropriately.
• 17:54
  [Lauren Brown]: I think that's so important too to like acknowledge that health and wellness and fitness. And even if we're looking at it from a standpoint, if you have somebody coming to you who's like, oh, I wanna increase muscle mass, I wanna do this, I wanna do that, that it's like, people are so in a rush to wanna get to the the end result and skip right to the the, I said, the sexy things, right? The squats, the deadlifts, the things that feel like strong and powerful. And it's like,
• 18:21
  [Lauren Brown]: you gotta go to that foundational piece and think about your, I'm gonna throw in sleep too, because Amanda and I always talk about sleep, but that's a huge recovery tool and a cause of stress for people as well. But it's like,
• 18:36
  [Lauren Brown]: I love that you work with clients to recognize that there's other things that are going to impact their movement patterns and their progress while working with you, that it's not just what you're doing, whether Pilates or training in the gym, it's all those other pieces.
• 18:54
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 18:54
  [Rachel Robertson]: Totally. It's a more holistic approach.
• 18:58
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 18:58
  [Rachel Robertson]: And often people end up saying to me, well, um how do you choose Pilates or strength training? One, sometimes it's a personal preference for the client. Two, it's kind of like, what does this client need?
• 19:13
  [Rachel Robertson]: Like if someone needs nervous system regulation, I'm probably going to start with Pilates. If they need pain management, I'm probably going to start with Pilates. If they need strength training, it could be either or, but preference for themselves usually comes into play.
• 19:34
  [Rachel Robertson]: Overall, the majority of my clients do both because I also educate them on the importance of both. And so they actually do it because they understand.
• 19:45
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: You know, as you're talking about nervous system regulation, like my little light bulb pops up because I'm also a yoga instructor, if you didn't know, but like, so that makes me think of mindfulness. And I know that you do describe yourself as a mindful movement mentor for you. What does mindful actually mean in that context? Is it something that you teach your clients or do you feel like it's something that they just have to experience like an experiential kind tool?
• 20:09
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: tool
• 20:10
  [Rachel Robertson]: Well, I think both Pilates and yoga, the cueing within it teaches it, right?
• 20:15
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 20:16
  [Rachel Robertson]: Like we use a lot of imagery. We try to describe things to get people there. um And I think that's part of it They're also known, they fall into low impact exercise, mind body exercise exercise.
• 20:31
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank
• 20:36
  [Rachel Robertson]: for those various reasons, right? um Now, when you're noticing that a client is not getting a movement, you play with the wording or you play with the tactile cueing or whether I use hands, whether I use props,
• 20:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: to get the person to feel it. And that usually then sends the signal to their brain to be like, oh, that's how it's supposed to go or that's what I'm supposed to do. um But being that being said, it's not just the Pilates that makes me a mindful practitioner.
• 21:10
  [Lauren Brown]: All right.
• 21:10
  [Rachel Robertson]: It's the compassion. It's the holding space. It's also teaching my clients about sleep. hydration, meditation, journaling. Like i love the eye rolls when I'm like, so do journal?
• 21:25
  [Rachel Robertson]: I think cause it's tough because it's trendy right now. So people are like, oh you're going to tell me that, too. And I'm like, it actually works.
• 21:32
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 21:33
  [Rachel Robertson]: I actually had someone say to me, like, who has time to journal every day? And I went, I actually do. And they were like, oh, and I was like, yeah, I actually do. i might not finish, but I do some.
• 21:48
  [Lauren Brown]: I do. With journaling, not to totally take too much time on that, but literally, I set like an alarm for five minutes and I just commit to five minutes of writing. And then if I can like brain dump longer, I brain dump. And even if it's that you're start off writing, like I have nothing to say today.
• 22:07
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah.
• 22:07
  [Lauren Brown]: My brain is empty.
• 22:07
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah.
• 22:08
  [Lauren Brown]: And then all of a sudden you're like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you all of a sudden, my God, I had so much shit on my brain that I needed to get out.
• 22:10
  [Rachel Robertson]: fridayy
• 22:13
  [Lauren Brown]: So I am like all for it. um But anyway, I don't want to spend too much time there. um With Pilates, so it's definitely having it's its moment right now too. I feel like there's a lot of people trying it out. But for people who are listening, who might still even be like, what the heck is Pilates? What makes it? Because I think people do think Pilates is...
• 22:37
  [Lauren Brown]: yoga and then some people think Pilates is strength training, where it's really like Pilates is Pilates. So I don't know if this is a a question that could be verbally dictated, but if so, can you kind of differentiate Pilates from yoga and for strength training?
• 22:54
  [Rachel Robertson]: So when I simplify it, because people ask that question all the time, i say, and I could be wrong. It's just the yoga training that I took, right? Because there is a variety of yoga.
• 23:06
  [Rachel Robertson]: My experience from my instructor training is yoga is more static holds, right? Pilates is a little more dynamic.
• 23:17
  [Rachel Robertson]: Like we move. It's still a controlled and aware movement, but we're moving consistently like in and out of the movement.
• 23:25
  [Lauren Brown]: Okay.
• 23:27
  [Rachel Robertson]: It's not to say that we don't stretch and we don't hold poses. It's just a little bit different. That again can depend not only on where did the instructor learn and and and their teaching style, um but what i find, so there is the original work, like Joseph Pilates, classical Pilates, he's got his set of exercises And the more and more we look at it for the modern day people, it's like this man is a genius. Like, how did he think of these things? Like, I just was listening to someone, someone speak about the hundred, the Pilates hundred.
• 24:09
  [Rachel Robertson]: And they literally said, how did he know that breathing inhale for five, exhale for five and the benefits of it? And I was like, it's so true.
• 24:20
  [Rachel Robertson]: Like, what was he thinking? He doesn't have the research that we have these days, but he was able to literally do this a century ago. He was literally able to figure out these nuances, which is just so magical.
• 24:33
  [Rachel Robertson]: And and we see that a lot in people's creativity.
• 24:36
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 24:38
  [Rachel Robertson]: Now, Pilates has evolved because we realize as we learn things like, oh that's not for every body type. And so that's where contemporary Pilates comes in, where it's like, OK, maybe we're going to modify this because this exercise is really hard on the neck or we're going to modify this because it's not great for knee alignment.
• 24:59
  [Rachel Robertson]: And then we've got. cautious of how I word this, but fitness Pilates, where in my studio, I call it creative. And it's kind of like taking a spin on it.
• 25:09
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 25:12
  [Rachel Robertson]: So we're adding some variety, like they're not the typical exercises. And you're changing it partially to challenge the clients. What I think is really important is that we don't deviate from the foundations and the principles. So if someone feels like they have no understanding of what Pilates is when they leave a class, I would question whether it stuck to the original Pilates principles. And then how do you differentiate that from fitness?
• 25:49
  [Rachel Robertson]: There's nothing wrong with fitness. I'm not saying that. It's just, if we really wanna call it Pilates, I think we should have the foundation of pelvic stability, rib cage placement, posture,
• 26:00
  [Rachel Robertson]: flow, control, breath, all integrated into it.
• 26:05
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: You, you're like such a huge wealth of knowledge. You have so many different things like that have happened in your life that you get to pull from. So if there's somebody that, um, is working with you, like who's been a health, who who's been through like a health event, maybe a life change, like you were talking about, cause you work from people from all different walks of life.
• 26:23
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Um, what is the first few weeks of working with you and reconnecting with their bodies actually look like in your practice?
• 26:31
  [Rachel Robertson]: I would say it's never the same for every person.
• 26:34
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 26:36
  [Rachel Robertson]: Ideally, i try to have a system in the sense like someone comes in, i assess them, we have a conversation about what their goals are.
• 26:40
  [Lauren Brown]: it.
• 26:45
  [Rachel Robertson]: Their goals really dictate the way I approach it. What does this client want, but what do they need? Right. It's not for me to be like, oh, they want to go run a marathon. Well, they're they're never going to do that or they shouldn't do that. That's not for me to say.
• 27:04
  [Rachel Robertson]: For me, it's, okay, how can I support them? But if they really wanna run that marathon, okay, I need to give them some pelvic stability.
• 27:15
  [Rachel Robertson]: I need to strengthen their hamstrings and their glutes.
• 27:16
  [Lauren Brown]: This is...
• 27:18
  [Rachel Robertson]: I need to like make it a variety of things in the sense of like, don't just go run for five hours. I need you to do hills. I need you do HIIT training. I need you to do strength training. and integrating all of that so that, again, they get what they want, but they also get what they need.
• 27:35
  [Rachel Robertson]: They're supported in that journey.
• 27:35
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 27:37
  [Rachel Robertson]: And then if I don't have the answers, I find the resources. What physiotherapist do I need to reach out to? What um can you go ask your doctor for this?
• 27:48
  [Rachel Robertson]: Can you go see a naturopath? Whatever it is, because some of it's outside of my scope. And it's also my job to admit that so that they get what they need.
• 28:01
  [Lauren Brown]: So something else that you offer is the trauma informed movement workshops that explore how life experiences are carried in the body through posture, breath and movement patterns.
• 28:15
  [Lauren Brown]: So can you walk us through what that means? Like practically how someone's history shows up in the way that they move?
• 28:22
  [Rachel Robertson]: So that workshop isn't ran by me. That was brought in by an outside counselor. It was just ran in our studio. But the idea is like we have, we carry emotion in our body.
• 28:32
  [Lauren Brown]: So,
• 28:36
  [Rachel Robertson]: We carry trauma. So that can show up in a number of ways in the sense of somebody might have pain in their hip, but they never actually had an injury there.
• 28:46
  [Rachel Robertson]: Well, why do they have pain in their hip? And then when they start to really assess like some deep stories and they try to physically move, which this actually really happens a lot in yoga where I've heard these stories. People are in like a deep hip flexor stretch and then they have an emotional release. um That's where movement can come into it. The other piece to me, when trauma shows up in the body, it's like you meet someone for the first time and you walk, at least I do.
• 29:20
  [Rachel Robertson]: I watch everyone who walks in the door and I'm like, oh, that person's limping. And then i don't say anything. And then they go through their assessment. They never mention.
• 29:32
  [Rachel Robertson]: And I'll be like, so does your knee or your hip bother you? And they're like, oh, but that that's normal. I do. And then it's kind of like, OK, what? And then you start to get the story.
• 29:43
  [Rachel Robertson]: You say, oh, that happened when I was a little kid and I jumped out a tree and landed wrong and it's just bothered me since.
• 29:43
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 29:48
  [Rachel Robertson]: And you're like, OK. But that's still in your body. And now that's impacting your back. And now that's impacting you getting to work and all of that nuance. Right. So we have to think that our body has a history.
• 30:06
  [Rachel Robertson]: And what is that history and how is it impacting us now? Like a ah perfect example is women who go through labor or women who go through carrying a child.
• 30:17
  [Rachel Robertson]: You unfortunately may not actually ever deliver that child. It does not mean your body did not experience that. It does not mean that did not have an impact on your body.
• 30:30
  [Rachel Robertson]: And that needs to be recognized. So when I deal with women, I do ask those questions in a sensitive manner, making sure that it's OK to go in that direction because some people may not want to have that conversation.
• 30:44
  [Rachel Robertson]: But it makes an impact on their pelvic health. It makes an impact on their back pain.
• 30:49
  [Lauren Brown]: No.
• 30:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: It makes an impact on their hip flexors. And so we have to know those nuances to integrate it into, okay, where do I need to pay attention? Where do I need to soften? Where do I need to figure out why, why is that so rigid over there?
• 31:07
  [Lauren Brown]: Can I just I want to just ask a quick follow up to the idea with the pelvic floor. And when it comes to Pilates, just for our listeners, you know, we have a lot of female listeners and we've had a guest on talking about the pelvic floor. And I know, Amanda knows this is a topic that I've always wanted to cover with experts.
• 31:28
  [Lauren Brown]: For our listeners that are like, why does it even matter? I've never, even if I've never had a child before, like, the importance of pelvic floor health, regardless of where you're at as a woman, whether it's, you know, a lot of, you know, perimenopause after having a baby, just in general, the importance of pelvic floor health and how Pilates can support that.
• 31:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: Well, we have to think it's the bottom of the container, right? So if we took a cylinder and our pelvic floor is the bottom of it and all the weight that it's carrying.
• 32:04
  [Rachel Robertson]: So our organs are in there, our body fat is partially in there. Then when we have a child, there's additional weight the amyotic fluid the physical baby the uterus grows um then we have to think that the hormones impact the actual tissues again whether we go through pregnancy or not hormones affect the tissues and that's a big piece as women go through menopause that their tissues start to change
• 32:39
  [Rachel Robertson]: and they start to feel those nuances, whether it's even sometimes during sex, sometimes it's just going to the bathroom and all those things are impacted. But even i I'm part of a rotary club and I volunteered at this ah men's cancer group.
• 32:49
  [Lauren Brown]: So
• 32:57
  [Rachel Robertson]: And I was they were just asking me some questions and i said, oh, I've got this pelvic health workshop coming up. And then they were like, actually, that would be really good for men because of prostate cancer and how it impacts the pelvic floor. And so we're all impacted again. it carries our organs, right? The weight that we are bearing. And then depending on how we move, how we breathe puts pressure on the pelvic floor.
• 33:28
  [Rachel Robertson]: Interestingly, um they there is a research study with, they studied specifically Pilates instructors and they used an ultrasound and they look at the pelvic floor when they told the Pilates instructors to do a Kegel.
• 33:29
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 33:44
  [Rachel Robertson]: And I think it was around somewhere around 80% of the Pilates instructors did not properly lift up and in. They actually bared down. So then even though they had the knowledge of what a Kegel was and what they were supposed to do, they physically didn't have an understanding of how to do it.
• 34:03
  [Rachel Robertson]: And here we are the ones that are teaching it. And it was really cool. Like I actually have been in a workshop where they pulled out the ultrasound and looked at the pelvic floor as they were cued.
• 34:16
  [Rachel Robertson]: And so it's just interesting. And then that was obviously when I went to a pelvic floor physiotherapist, I was like, I don't know if I go up or down. And luckily was like, okay, yes, I'm doing it correctly because I want to be able to teach people how to do it.
• 34:25
  [Lauren Brown]: yeah
• 34:31
  [Rachel Robertson]: And one of the best things is being able to do it when you're teaching someone. Now that's not to say that you have to always do things correctly to be able to teach. It's just a benefit because it helps you if you can find it out in your body as well.
• 34:48
  [Lauren Brown]: So what cues do you give them to make sure that people are properly doing it? So for our listeners, I know everyone listening is doing Kegels right now for a fact, everyone listening is doing Kegels. So, but like, I'm like, I'm doing them right now, but what, what cues do you give them to make sure that it's lifting instead of bearing down?
• 35:06
  [Rachel Robertson]: So interestingly, um I have kind of moved away from cueing unless I have someone come to me specifically for pelvic floor.
• 35:16
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 35:16
  [Rachel Robertson]: Then the second piece is, has the physiotherapist actually indicated that they need to relax because they're actually too tight? And that's actually some of their pelvic floor issues is that they're like tense.
• 35:29
  [Rachel Robertson]: So we actually work on relaxing the pelvic floor.
• 35:29
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 35:33
  [Rachel Robertson]: So we'll go through the exercise, but at the end of the exercise is about can they release and relax? so And then, or it's about contracting. So there's a couple cues. I have a client who loves this one, but it's picking up a blueberry. so it would be like inhale, exhale. You're gonna pick up a blueberry with your pelvic floor and draw it up.
• 35:59
  [Rachel Robertson]: and then slowly release and slowly place the blueberry back down. And for her, that works.
• 36:08
  [Lauren Brown]: Yep.
• 36:08
  [Rachel Robertson]: um And then for men, actually what really works is asking them to imagine that they're going to walk into cold water. And as they go into the cold water, their jewels are going to draw up and in.
• 36:24
  [Rachel Robertson]: and for most And they can relate to that because they experience that. And so that cue, like i used to avoid. And then finally I was like, okay, you can do it.
• 36:35
  [Rachel Robertson]: Say it to this client. And I said it to him and he was like, that was awesome. I got it. And I was like, okay. It's just, I can't relate. So I felt a little uncomfortable going there and you don't want to be inappropriate.
• 36:50
  [Lauren Brown]: Right.
• 36:50
  [Rachel Robertson]: But when you're really trying to specifically get to it, you just have to kind of say it.
• 36:50
  [Lauren Brown]: Yeah.
• 36:56
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 36:57
  [Rachel Robertson]: You're welcome.
• 36:58
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: I mean, that's so good. And Lauren, when you asked the question, i was like, so I'm so Rachel, I'm like perimenopause, like, whoa, like right here.
• 37:05
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yep.
• 37:05
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: i I sneezed the other day. i was like, Lauren, all you have to do is ask somebody perimenopause or had a baby to sneeze. And then you'll know why the pelvic floor is so important.
• 37:13
  [Lauren Brown]: It happens to me too, Amanda.
• 37:14
  [Rachel Robertson]: Right.
• 37:15
  [Lauren Brown]: I'm in the same boat as you.
• 37:16
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh my gosh.
• 37:18
  [Lauren Brown]: right
• 37:17
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: I was like, I can no longer hold it in That's it.
• 37:21
  [Lauren Brown]: Well, that's
• 37:22
  [Rachel Robertson]: You notice it with the difference in your hormones as they fluctuate. Yeah.
• 37:25
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh yeah.
• 37:26
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah.
• 37:26
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: It's, um i um I literally made a list because I'm going to a new doctor. I'm like TMI. I'm like an overshare. Obviously, you don't already know this ratio, but I'm an overshare.
• 37:37
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: I made a list of everything that's going on with my body right now as I'm like primary menopausal to talk to my new doctor about this. I'm like, this doctor's going to think I'm nuts. But listen, I'm my own best advocate.
• 37:47
  [Rachel Robertson]: You gotta be, that's what i was just about to say.
• 37:49
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: That's it.
• 37:50
  [Rachel Robertson]: You need to be an advocate.
• 37:51
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: Like that's that's another piece I've had to learn is that I cannot advocate for my clients. So I gotta teach them and I gotta like hone in. Like you need to advocate for yourself.
• 38:04
  [Rachel Robertson]: I'll help them write out their notes, but they need to go speak for themselves because the doctor doesn't want me coming in.
• 38:07
  [Lauren Brown]: Is
• 38:12
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Yeah.
• 38:14
  [Lauren Brown]: that your mom? No.
• 38:15
  [Rachel Robertson]: yeah
• 38:18
  [Lauren Brown]: It's my trainer.
• 38:19
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh, man.
• 38:19
  [Lauren Brown]: She's here with me.
• 38:22
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: What, you know, you know, what I'm thinking about now that you're talking about like being an advocate, it's like confidence, how we all need to have that confidence and sometimes permissions like push ourselves to do the thing. And I think that confidence and physical capability are really connected.
• 38:35
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah.
• 38:35
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: for you, Rachel, like when you're working with your clients, which one comes first? And do you build the body and then the confidence follows? Or in your in your like experience, do you have to address confidence to unlock the body?
• 38:49
  [Rachel Robertson]: I would say movement creates confidence.
• 38:52
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 38:53
  [Rachel Robertson]: First, the client has to feel safe. So I know over the years, people have said to me, you talk a lot.
• 38:57
  [Lauren Brown]: Oh.
• 39:02
  [Rachel Robertson]: And I'm like, yeah, I talk a lot, but it makes the person want to be in the room. So like, sometimes they're like, oh, thank you. You talked through that because it just got me through it. And that's part of it is like distraction. Because there are times where i'm like, oh my gosh, I don't have anything to say. and then they're like, talk, talk. And because they're so uncomfortable.
• 39:24
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 39:24
  [Rachel Robertson]: I do. I could also argue now that I'd be like, well, maybe they need to feel that, but we won't go there.
• 39:30
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 39:30
  [Rachel Robertson]: It's about getting them in the room, getting them to feel safe, then getting them to move, especially if they're coming from a pain component. There's a lot of fear of like, if I move this way, I will cause X, Y, Z.
• 39:43
  [Rachel Robertson]: So then it's like, okay, I have to teach them that that won't occur or how to figure out so that it doesn't occur. And then once that happens, their confidence sky rock rockets.
• 39:56
  [Lauren Brown]: So if someone listening is right now in that point in their life where their body feels foreign, their trust is low and motivation is uncertain, confidence is uncertain, what's one thing that you would want them to hear?
• 40:05
  [Rachel Robertson]: hmm.
• 40:16
  [Rachel Robertson]: doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. What matters is that you are taking the time for yourself.
• 40:25
  [Rachel Robertson]: I think often, especially if we're going to talk to women, we don't put ourselves first. And it's an easy trap to fall into because it's easy to justify that our kids need us or our spouses need us or our coworkers need us, partially because we're naturally nurturing. um But as it's said a lot these days, the only way we can show up for other people is if we take care of ourselves first, oxygen mass first. And I will admit, i roll my eyes when people say it to me.
• 40:58
  [Lauren Brown]: Yeah.
• 40:58
  [Rachel Robertson]: But it's the truth. I know when I take care of myself and I'm on top of it, I show up. When I start to drift and sometimes it's unavoidable, stress happens, sleep, it builds and then you start to take care of yourself a little less. That's when it's like, oh man, i can't actually care for these people.
• 41:24
  [Rachel Robertson]: I need to go and take care of myself. And so I think it's just reassuring people it it can be done and it can be done in the smallest amount It doesn't have to be an hour workout. I think that's the misconception. I always say to clients when they come in,
• 41:44
  [Rachel Robertson]: Okay, what is your goal? How often do you want to work out? But before you answer me, don't say to me five times a week for an hour because you think that's what I want to hear. I want to know realistically what can you commit to. And if you tell me 10 minutes, two times a week, I will accept that because I have to meet the client where they're at and I have to recognize what they're capable of.
• 42:12
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: and love that. There's one question that I always love to ask everybody that comes on in the podcast. If you could go back and talk to Rachel 10 years ago, 15 years ago, what's something that you wish you knew then that you know now? or what's one piece of advice that you would offer?
• 42:34
  [Rachel Robertson]: Right now, because my studio isn't even a year old, um like my business has existed, so I just expanded and opened up a Pilates studio.
• 42:44
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Congratulations.
• 42:45
  [Rachel Robertson]: Thank you. um
• 42:46
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Yeah.
• 42:47
  [Rachel Robertson]: I would tell her it's gonna happen because one of my biggest stories this year has been, how did I get here?
• 42:53
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Love that.
• 43:01
  [Rachel Robertson]: So it was always on my bucket list from the beginning that when I got trained when I was 21, that I was gonna have a Pilates studio.
• 43:01
  [Lauren Brown]: Thank you.
• 43:10
  [Rachel Robertson]: I never really thought how, I just kind of was like one day, blah, blah, blah. And then here I am. And when you have those desires, they're whispering all the time. And that's what I would tell myself. Like I always kind of knew like, when you think stuff, it it happens.
• 43:30
  [Rachel Robertson]: But I also was fearful of that because it's like, if you think stuff, it's going to happen, positive or negative. And um now I would just say to her, like, you got this and it's going to happen.
• 43:46
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh, man. Lauren, it makes me think. So, Rachel, we just reviewed the book, The Gap in the Game. And you have you heard of it no?
• 43:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: OK. No.
• 43:54
  [Lauren Brown]: Okay. Okay.
• 43:54
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: No. So it's the concept that when we look at the health, like when we take our goal and we look back and see what we've done to get there, we live in the game because we're positive about what we've done. When we're looking at the things that we want to get to and we're like, I'm not there yet, so I'm not happy yet. That's the gap. But you are 100% an example of living in the game.
• 44:16
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Like, awesome. So awesome.
• 44:18
  [Rachel Robertson]: So I'm going to admit this has been a really hard year. And part of the reason it's been a really hard year is one, because I've faced a lot of stories, but two,
• 44:24
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Mm-hmm.
• 44:30
  [Lauren Brown]: Mm-hmm.
• 44:32
  [Rachel Robertson]: I've held a little bit of high expectations and I've had to rein myself in and be like, Rachel, you're comparing your business, which is literally a baby and only months old to businesses that have existed for five years. Or like because I i was running before and now I've expanded it, I kind of wanted it to run like how it was running before. And it's like this is a whole new ballgame.
• 44:55
  [Rachel Robertson]: and it's perspective. And so I've totally had moments. I've cried, I've screamed, I've physically worked out just to take out that emotion, but I keep going.
• 45:07
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: That's awesome. That's great advice.
• 45:08
  [Lauren Brown]: Amanda, I'm so happy that you brought up the gap and the gain. Like my heart is so cold.
• 45:12
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: I felt like, i I feel like I was like, I think Lauren's thinking this too. So i'm just going to pull the words out of her mouth.
• 45:18
  [Lauren Brown]: I know. I love that because it's like putting it into practice. And Rachel, should definitely check out the book because it's it's a great perspective.
• 45:23
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah.
• 45:25
  [Lauren Brown]: So for our listeners who want to connect with you, do you work with people virtually or is it all in person? Okay.
• 45:33
  [Rachel Robertson]: No, virtually as well, yeah.
• 45:33
  [Lauren Brown]: So perfect. So people who want to either connect with you and follow along, or if they want to work with you, where can people find you?
• 45:40
  [Rachel Robertson]: Yeah, so my website is returntoforum.ca. CA for Canada. um My ah Instagram is return to form kinesiology.
• 45:52
  [Rachel Robertson]: um a variety of ways that people do work with me. So they can work with me from like me as a practitioner standpoint, but I also educate other practitioners on how to work with people. So I've got a clinical Pilates workshop that literally teaches people how to, integrate Pilates into exercise prescription. And that was a mat version. And my reformer version actually is coming out next month and is going to run for the first time. And then I have my own mat mentorship program. So I'm training other instructors. And that can be online or in person, all of those things.
• 46:34
  [Lauren Brown]: Awesome, thank you. Before we wrap it up, anything that we missed?
• 46:41
  [Rachel Robertson]: No, just to really appreciate the time.
• 46:41
  [Lauren Brown]: I know. like
• 46:43
  [Lauren Brown]: Yeah, this was this was a amazing, Rachel. So thank you so much for joining us. This conversation was... everything we hoped it would be, and honestly more. So the way you talk about the body as something to come back to rather than fight against, I think is something that a lot of our listeners need to hear. And for our listeners, if this episode sparked something for you, go follow Rachel, rachel find Return to Form. We're going to link everything in the show notes and let this be the nudge that you needed to start showing up for yourself again.
• 47:20
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: And to everybody listening, and we know we say this every single time, but we do mean it 100% every single time.
• 47:20
  [Rachel Robertson]: Thank you.
• 47:26
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: We know you have a choice as to how you spend your time. And we are so, so grateful that you chose to spend it with us. If this episode resonated with you or you know someone who needs to hear it, please go ahead and like it, share, and leave us a review. Because as you know, when you do that, it helps us reach more people and we truly appreciate every bit of support.
• 47:45
  [Amanda Gargiulo]: Oh, and we get to bring on amazing experts just like Rachel. Until we meet again, happy listening.