Latest / It's All Poetry / Copy is Poetry with a Purpose (with Nicki Krawczyk)
Transcript
- Nicole Cloutier (01:28) Well Nikki, I am so glad to have you on here. Hi, welcome to It's All Poetry. Nicki (01:33) Hello, I'm so excited to be here. Nicole Cloutier (01:36) for everyone listening, I have Nikki Krozik on the line with me today. and when we first decided that for this season, season five, we wanted to do a special season on mentors, people that I've learned the most from over the years, my brain was immediately like, Nikki, I have to reach out to Nikki. Because of course I've had, Nicki (01:54) I'm so flattered. Nicole Cloutier (01:56) yeah, yeah, you've had a big impact on my life. It's been a big deal. But I've had lots of positive influences, of course, but I think that you're the one I would say like gave me the biggest like pivot in business. Like it was the biggest turning point that I've had and everything has kind of grown from there. So for anyone in my audience who doesn't know you yet, I'm so excited to introduce them to you. Nicki (02:18) Well thank you. Thank you. Really, that's that's such a such a sweet thing to say. That really means a lot to me. So thank you. Nicole Cloutier (02:26) Your work means a lot to me. and the official bio is that Nikki is a professional copywriter for more than twenty years, creator of the Comprehensive Copywriting Academy, which I took, and the number one all in one online professional copywriting training program. yeah, which I took back in twenty nineteen, a lot so long ago. Nicki (02:47) Hmm, wow, time passes, huh? Nicole Cloutier (02:49) I know. and today we're talking about the word copy, which I knew would kind of be a challenging one because I know when I first tell people I'm a copywriter, I don't know if this still happens to you, but people often assume I'm a lawyer. Like family members, people I've just Nicki (03:04) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (03:06) met. and copy just has so many meanings. So I'm excited to dig to dig into it with you. I want to start by asking you though, can you like what is your like earliest or most significant memory of the word copy. Like what did it mean to young Nikki? Yeah. Nicki (03:21) The word copy. Yeah, it's a confusing one, right? Because the the definition has really changed a lot over the past probably twenty to thirty years. It's kind of narrowed in to I don't know if I remember the first time that I heard the word or heard copywriting. And it's actually funny that you mentioned the copywriting W R I T I N G versus R-I-G-H-G because it was literally yesterday. a a relative of someone I used to work out reached out to me and was like, I I heard that you're in business and that you're a copywriter. I have the same business name as somebody else. Is that a problem? I'm like, no, you okay, yes. I I can give you advice on this because I've been in business for a long time, but okay, okay. yeah, no, it's Nicole Cloutier (04:09) Yeah. Nicki (04:09) very complicated because the the the definition is definitely narrowed. I think I probably the first time I heard it was my background is that my dad was a marketing director and he used to bring home extra, extra marketing writing work for me to do in high school and then give me feedback on it, which kind of was the the the origin, my my origin story. and I'm sure that that was around about the same the first time I'd heard copywriting, but But yeah, the word copy is used to kind of mean just and I'm sure we'll talk about it more, but like used to just kind of mean cop writing in general. Like a a copy editor is someone who edits writing. I hear the word copy on its own. And if I'm not in like a business context, I think of a Nora Afron quote, which I don't know if you came across this at all. the a amazing Nora Afron. Her parents, she was obviously a screenwriter and and an essayist, but and I her parents I think were also screenwriters while her mom was dying I believe I'm getting this right you know Nora and her sisters were were upset obviously and her mom said it's all copy. Everything is copy. That was it. Everything is copy. Like even this experience here that you're going through of of grieving Me before I die, it's all copy. Meaning effectively, it's all fodder for writing. So copy used Nicole Cloutier (05:32) Mm. Nicki (05:33) to have this, like this much broader term, and it used to be it used to encompass news and it used to encompass all of this kind of stuff. And it's really kind of over the past 20 to 30 years that we've gotten much more specific into the idea of it being marketing and advertising writing. Nicole Cloutier (05:51) Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's interesting because of course the first definition in the modern dictionary is an imitation, right? An imitation Nicki (05:58) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (05:58) or reproduction of an original work, such as a letter, which is kind of different than the way I mean it's there are similarities which we can talk about, but it's different in that the way we use copy when we're talking about marketing, it's like more of an original, like to be copied, like it's meant to be copied. Whereas Nicki (06:14) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (06:17) and that's where like the marketing definition comes from. But I think the first definition, like I my or if I were to go like way back to elementary school, my first memory might be like tracing paper, like, Nicki (06:28) Mm. Nicole Cloutier (06:28) like copy or like don't copy, right? There's just Yeah. Yeah. Nicki (06:31) Yeah, or copycat or yeah. Nicole Cloutier (06:34) There's like almost a negative copy too of just the word. Yeah. Nicki (06:37) Yeah. Yeah, did you find anything in your research about how it made that pivot from from things that are copied to I don't know, Nicole Cloutier (06:46) So there are two definitions, right? So one of the definitions that's still in the modern dictionary is so the first one is imitation, but the second one is something to be imitated, like a model. So and that we don't use it as much anymore, but it still exists as like there's a copy of something and then there's also an original copy. So it's it's interesting 'cause the original is still kind of a copy. Nicki (07:14) Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, the I mean, yeah, I guess you we do know that phrase, right? The original copy. yes, it's the Nicole Cloutier (07:19) Yeah. Nicki (07:20) original copy. And then you make a copy of the original copy. don't you just love English? Who came up with this stuff? Nicole Cloutier (07:26) I know. But I think it does. The thing is, I don't know if anyone intentionally does this, right? It's just us like as a big like group conglomerate just like using language and pushing its shape all over time. Nicki (07:40) Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (07:42) but I think it's in large part due to the like marketing and printing industry, right? Like when there was an original copy of something, there would also be like a carbon copy of it. so that there it could be reproduced and I think advertising, especially we when we go back in time we'll look at it more closely, but in like the eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties is when that it started being used in that way. Nicki (08:05) that makes sense because you get into like the broadsheet era where it was, okay, that makes sense. I see. I see. Okay, well there you go. Okay, done. Done. Thanks for thanks for listening. That was Nicole Cloutier (08:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We did it. This is the whole episode. but yeah, so modern modern definition. So we have the imitation, we have like the original copy, we also have something considered newsworthy or noteworthy or printable. Nicki (08:31) Mm mm. Nicole Cloutier (08:34) and also, of course, the way you and I probably use it the most in our lives is text, especially of an advertisement. Nicki (08:43) Yes. Yeah, Nicole Cloutier (08:43) Yeah. Nicki (08:43) th those those the last two are the the something noteworthy of copies where is that kind of broad the the everything is copy, everything is fodder for your writing is still kind of in that definition. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (08:54) Yes, absolutely. and then of course we have copy as a verb, which is, you know, to make a copy, to make a duplicate of. Yes. Nicki (09:01) She make a copy. Yes. Yes. Nicole Cloutier (09:04) So how often do you think you use the word copy in your daily life? Nicki (09:09) Constantly, near constantly. yes, a a massive amount of time. copywriting is probably like the the best cap secret for writers. You know, we all grow up thinking, you can't make any money as a writer. And a lot I mean unfortunately it's kind of true with a lot of a lot of writing industries, sadly, should not be the case. But the copywriting you actually can make an an excellent income. But there's so few people who know what it actually is that even when we create ads and we create landing pages and we create emails, at least especially at the beginning of people encountering our program, I always have to, you know, copywriting marketing and ad writing just to kind of convey that do that that educational element which is wild to me that there's still so many people who have no idea what copywriting is. And it's obviously it's not their fault, but when you think about like mad men and you think about but just how prevalent advertising is and I feel like every At least every ten books I read, and I really don't think it's me, but they they reference like a copywriter or someone works as a copywriter or something, and I I think do people just like gloss over this word because they don't know what it means? It's fascinating to me that it's it's so unknown still. Nicole Cloutier (10:34) Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's why we get asked for legal advice all the time. Yeah. Nicki (10:37) Yes, yes. Nicole Cloutier (10:40) yeah, and to go back to what I was saying in the intro of like why your work meant so much in my career, because I say all the time, like part of my bio is I've been copywriting for twelve years, right? So since twenty fourteen, as y'all probably or might have just noticed, that's before I took the comp comprehensive copywriting academy, but I was a copywriter at a marketing agency. And even though I was like a copywriter and writing copy for clients, I did not know really how to do it. Like if I'm being honest, until like I was like, there's like formulas, like there are like things that that matter to actually like do the art of persuasion. prior to that I was writing like tweets and pretty sentences for brands, but it wasn't, it wasn't copy, even though I was calling it copy. So I think people, even if they know the word, I don't know if they fully understand. Like what goes into it. Yeah. Nicki (11:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's it's one of the things that I have always liked about it is that it's this fun mix of like creativity and strategy. those of us who grew up loving writing and loving crafting words, you still you get that you get that creativity element, but then you also get this strategy element of it too. Copywriting is is poetry with a purpose. It's Nicole Cloutier (11:59) Mm. Nicki (12:00) every word matters and the cadence matters and the the length of lines matter and it's but at the same time it's it's not that poetry doesn't have a purpose, it certainly does, of course, but it's a little bit more of a a defined purpose because you want people to to do something after they have consumed the copy. Nicole Cloutier (12:19) Yeah, yes, absolutely. and then the last definition from the modern dictionary that I wanna share is something probably it's not something I thought of before my research, and I bet you haven't thought of it, but it's what you say at the end of a radio message. Do you copy? Nicki (12:33) Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Do you copy? Yeah. Which I Nicole Cloutier (12:38) Yeah. Which I think applies to copywriting. You want people to understand. Nicki (12:41) Yes, exactly. But that's back into that that duplication element, right? Like you heard me, you heard exactly the thing that I said, you heard it the exact same thing. And getting into that right and copy r-I-G-H-T. It is do you have the right to copy this and to use it? Nicole Cloutier (12:56) Hmm. Nicki (12:57) Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (12:58) Yeah, yeah. Nicki (12:58) But where did that split come in? I guess it just must be the the the carbon copying and the broadsheets and mass distribution. Nicole Cloutier (13:07) Yeah, I think it's it's one of those words which I love when this happens, where it's like the the definition, like the way we use it, it can almost it can feel contradictory. And then like as we kind of get back into the etymology, we'll start to see like, I can see how these two contradictory definitions came to both be from the same root. Nicki (13:26) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (13:27) so a couple synonyms, of course. None of these are gonna be surprising, I don't think, except bootleg. Bootleg was surprising. That's a synonym, a modern listed synonym. Nicki (13:35) Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (13:36) reproduction, publication, emulate, record. So that was kind of cool to see that as a synonym version. But yeah, none of the synonyms kind of add on anything new. So let's keep going back in time. So what's fun about this is usually we look at the 1828 definition, but because copy had such a pivot in the 1880s, I think let's look at That for a second. So in like 87, 89, 88, that's when we start getting like copy desk, copy editor, copy boy. and it's all from this copy in journalism and advertising. And it doesn't mean like something's been copied from somewhere. It means it's meant to be reproduced, meant to be copied. And so this is what we already kind of talked about a little bit, but it's like this material is heading to the printing press. So that was where that definition started coming in. So eighteen eighties. Mm-hmm. Nicki (14:39) Interesting. Okay, that's where we get the journalistic because I think that's still used in newsrooms, the idea of well obviously copy desk and that kind of thing is still still used. Interesting. Nicole Cloutier (14:48) Yeah. Yeah. And I think Copy Boy was literally like a a a young person who would like run the carbon copies to the printer. So it'd Nicki (15:00) Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (15:00) be the one to like bring it from one place to another before we could just send things through the ether. Nicki (15:05) That's amazing. Nicole Cloutier (15:06) Yeah. and then so eighteen twenty eight, what's so again we can keep in mind like that isn't there yet, right? Like the way you and I use copy really isn't quite There, it doesn't exist. Nicki (15:18) Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (15:19) So 1828, I always like to give a little background for this because it's Noah Webster's dictionary project and he spent like 20 years doing it. He really wanted like an American dictionary. So the definitions are very much tinged by like his desires. Nicki (15:35) That's very American of him, as a matter of fact. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (15:39) Exactly. Yeah. part of what's fun about his definitions though, is that they're sometimes more poetic. So I'm gonna read this and then let me know, like if anything stood out to you. Okay, so copy is a noun, literally a likeness or resemblance of any kind. Hence, a writing like another writing, a transcript from an original, or a book printed according to the original. Hence Any single book or set of books containing a composition resembling the original work, as the copy of a deed or of a bond, a copy of Addison's works, a copy of the laws, a copy of the scriptures. And then he goes on to say it's also the imitation of a picture or a statue. But of course, we still have, as his third definition, an original work, the autograph, the archetyped, hence that which is to be imitated in writing or printing. yes. Nicki (16:33) Which philosophically it's very confusing because it is both it is both the original and it is the the reproduction, which means it is all things. Co Nicole Cloutier (16:42) It is all things. Nicki (16:44) friends, copy is all things. According to Noah Webster, it is literally all things. Nicole Cloutier (16:50) Yes, yes. and his fourth, he has a fourth definition, which is just one word, and that is abundance. Nicki (16:59) really? Nicole Cloutier (17:00) Yes. Nicki (17:01) Interesting. Did we get any usage of that? Can we Noah, can we have that in a sentence, please? Nicole Cloutier (17:07) Usually he's very good at giving examples, but for abundance he did not. But it is kind of like this is our doorway back into the etymology. So he has abundance and then in brackets, Latin. So tagged explicit explicitly as this is a leftover from Latin. But that is a definition that gets dropped as we get into the future. It sticks with like the original copy or a copy of something, but abundance gets dropped soon after this point. Nicki (17:33) Interesting. Nicole Cloutier (17:34) Yeah. Nicki (17:35) I can't hear the word abundance without thinking like manifestation and like meditations Nicole Cloutier (17:41) Yes. Nicki (17:42) about abundance and isn't that interesting? Hmm Nicole Cloutier (17:45) Yeah. But I mean it kind of supports us saying like copy is all things. Nicki (17:49) Yes, it's copy is all things. Also that something can be copied un unceasingly, right? If if you can create a copy, you can create multiple copies without those copies degrading theoretically. Nicole Cloutier (18:02) Right. Nicki (18:02) There are plenty of movies about clones in which that is not the case. But interesting. Nicole Cloutier (18:06) Right. Clones you can't just make over and over. Nicki (18:09) Clones you just can't I mean, you know, like if there's several movies I could reference, yeah. Nicole Cloutier (18:14) yeah. You make too many and they just start like competing for who gets to survive of all the clones. Nicki (18:18) Exactly. Exactly. This is Nicole Cloutier (18:21) Yes. but I mean, does that do you think the word abundance, like does that feel like it plays a part in the way you think of copy and the way you use copy? Even if it was subconscious. Nicki (18:35) Yeah, really. I mean, I guess for me, copy has literally been the source of abundance, right? It w even certainly well before I started the CCA, that is where my income came from. it was in 2008 that I hit six figures as a freelance copywriter, which was like right in the middle of the recession. And exactly when everyone's like, no, there's no work to be had. Nobody can find anything. But it was because it is something that is so necessary for literally every organization and and company, whether or not they choose to do it or choose to to make use of it wisely. and then of course too within the as I opened or started the the Comprehensive Copywriting Academy, the C C A, There has been certainly income abundance from that, but also just like abundance in the people that I've gotten to meet and the people that I've gotten to work with and the people that I've had the opportunity to to affect in in some small way, you know. probably not in the way Mr. Webster intended, but yeah, I mean copy is a a massive source of abundance for me in in a lot of different areas of my life. In certainly yes, literal abundance, but also just feeling like I've had an impact on the world. You know, if I were to God forbid, if I were to to get hit by a bus tomorrow, I would know that I had that I had helped people and that is directly because of copywriting. Nicole Cloutier (20:32) Yeah, yeah. You ever get tired of people like me talking about what a big impact you've had on our lives? Nicki (20:37) No, are you kidding me? Absolutely not. You know how this works. You know that there are you hear like one negative thing or one person you've never met and will never ever meet post something on a Facebook ad like, this is a scam. And you perseverate on it for days. So no, I will always, always be grateful to hear from from people that we have impacted positively, because that I mean that that's you know what it is. It's business. They the the negativity negativity looms large. So the positivity you have to grab onto it when when you can. Even though even though the positivity is so much bigger and more abundant, Mr. Webster, than Nicole Cloutier (21:22) Mm-hmm. Nicki (21:23) the negativity. Nicole Cloutier (21:25) yeah. No, th that's that's what your brain wants to be like, No confir confirmation that I am bad, that I that everything I've done so far has been Nicki (21:28) Yes. Yes, right, like it's true. This stranger on the internet who lives in his mother's basement definitely knows me best. Yeah yes. Nicole Cloutier (21:41) Yeah. But I do think like to get a little more back into like the copy that I that I work on or the copy that my clients are working on, it's like copy does feel like the number one lever for abundance in their businesses. So I think that that's a hundred percent. There's lots of other tactics you can do, but the copy has to be on point for any of those to work. Nicki (22:00) Yeah, I agree. I'm sure it sounds self-serving, but it it it's the most important thing in a business. if a business can't convey what it is that they that they sell and can't convey it well or product or service and can't connect with their audience, then good luck. That business doesn't matter how great the product is, if they can't explain that it's great, it's the business is not gonna stay in business for very long. Nicole Cloutier (22:26) Yeah. I think it's great that we're both so passionate about what we do. Obviously we're like what we do is so important. Nicki (22:29) Yes. We love it. Nicole Cloutier (22:33) Yes. okay, let's do a backwards walk through time and just p I want to point out some like little like additions to the definition of copy like through time. So in nineteen eighty is when we first get C C on an email, sending a copy. Wait, what is the I'm blanking on what the other C. Nicki (22:48) Hmm. Carbon copy. Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (22:52) Carbon. does it stands carbon copy? Yes. Okay. Yes. But you get an email format. the Nicki (22:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yes. Actually, I said that very, very authoritatively. I just assume as a matter of that I that it's carbon copy. I assume that it is. I Nicole Cloutier (23:04) Yeah. Nicki (23:05) don't, but without questioning myself, yeah. I think it I just, as soon Nicole Cloutier (23:08) Yeah, 'cause then it's blind carbon copy is the Yeah. Yeah. Nicki (23:11) as I said it, I was like, that's what it is. And then I went, wait a minute now. Is it? Nicole Cloutier (23:16) I think I think we're right. Yeah. Yes. You can always double check us and and let us Nicki (23:17) For the purposes of this episode, we're gonna go with carbon copy. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (23:22) know. the late 1880s, we already talked about this, but that's when we get copy that's claimed by newsrooms and advertising. and then if we jump back, just a few hundred years, Nicki (23:34) Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (23:35) 1530s, it becomes the definition around that time is one of a set of reproduction. containing containing the same matter. So it's a set like a sense of mass production. I Nicki (23:50) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (23:51) say that, I said that with like a a smirk because it's mass production. Obviously we think of mass production at such a bigger scale than they thought of in the 1500s, but still like the the modern sense of mass production starts to arrive. Nicki (24:03) Yes. what is the date for the printing press? Do you know what Nicole Cloutier (24:08) my gosh. Nicki (24:09) that is offhand? It's gotta be right around the same time, she says, wholly unaware Nicole Cloutier (24:12) Yeah, I feel like I should know. I'm gonna Nicki (24:15) of it was it was at some point Nicole Cloutier (24:17) Yeah. Nicki (24:17) before the nineteen hundreds. So I want to say it's like the fifteen hundreds. yes, fourteen forty, exactly what I said. Yes. Nicole Cloutier (24:21) 1440. I just I just Googled it. Yes. Fifteenth century is what I heard you say. Nicki (24:29) Yes, exactly. prior to the printing press, it re to make a copy was y potentially years, depending on what kind of book it was and how intricate it was. And then we get Mr. Gutenberg gets into business and it's considerably faster. Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (24:48) Mass production. Which I guess it it makes sense like that it might take a while for it to start being defined as one of a set of copies, like as mass production. it's like spread around the globe, as that being the definition. I was just watching something last night, some YouTube video, probably not a super reliable source. But anyway, this part feels reliable that I'm about to share with the world. But about like clay tablets, The person reproducing an original clay tablet actually didn't understand it. Like they couldn't read necessarily. They were copying the symbols, but they weren't Nicki (25:23) That makes sense. Nicole Cloutier (25:25) yeah. So that I thought that was fascinating. Nicki (25:28) that's that makes a lot of sense. I mean the skill of chiseling is I'm sure a faster and easier skill to teach than writing Nicole Cloutier (25:35) Right. you have to like make this precise like symbol. but it maybe the people who were like the intellectuals were like, that's not I don't feel like spending time like making a bunch of copies of the thing. I wanna use my intellectual brain to like come up with the idea. Who knows? Nicki (25:50) But doesn't that make you wonder how many and what errors were introduced that we now take as as the truth, you know, or or as Nicole Cloutier (26:00) Yeah. And some of those old symbols, like you look at cuneiform and like one little like line change and it's got a completely different meaning. So yeah, Nicki (26:07) Yes. Nicole Cloutier (26:08) I'm sure that's happened. It must, right? Nicki (26:10) Yes. Nicole Cloutier (26:12) okay, that we just jumped back to like 4000 BC, but I'm gonna bring us to 14 the late 14th century. Nicki (26:19) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (26:20) as a verb we have Latin like cop copier, copiere, copiae, which is to transcribe. But originally it literally meant to write in plenty. Nicki (26:31) there's our abundance. Okay. Nicole Cloutier (26:33) Coming in, yeah. And that again, it starts to feel even though we don't have mass production yet, we don't have the printing press, like to write in a bunch of a thing. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. That is a cousin word, is copious. Nicki (26:43) and then you've got copious then too. Interesting. Gotcha. Nicole Cloutier (26:49) Yep, same root. and then one more little milestone for us in the mid-14th century. So that copiae was late 14th century, mid-14th century, the noun. enters English as a written account or record, which comes from the old French, copy, and the medieval Latin copia, which is reproduction or transcript. Yeah. Nicki (27:11) Interesting. Nicole Cloutier (27:13) Yeah. I mean, we always talk about technology changing things, but you know, handwritten manuscripts were like a skilled and valuable labor at the time. so now it's like can just voice note into my clod. It'll like Nicki (27:29) Yes. Nicole Cloutier (27:31) make a copy of my words for me. But yeah, that like art system. I know. Nicki (27:34) Yeah, talk about abundance and copiousness, yeah. Nicole Cloutier (27:38) I know. Before this episode, I was like, how much do I want to bring up AI? And I decided like, well, if it comes up, it comes up, but I'm not Nicki (27:42) I know, I know. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (27:45) gonna like give it a whole segment or anything. But yeah, Nicki (27:48) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (27:48) but yeah, we can make so many copies now. Nicki (27:51) Yes. Nicole Cloutier (27:52) Yeah. But and then I do like the idea too of like Producing abundance, it goes back to what we were saying before where copy does a lot of like producing of abundance. Nicki (28:02) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. abundance, evidence for abundance is is in nature. In nature is abundant. You there every tree has has hundreds, if not thousands, of leaves. And it is that kind of idea of of every plant. reproduces. It it copies itself. Every leaf is is like a copy of the other leaves, even if they're not exactly genetically the same. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (28:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I love that I love that you brought that in. I mean, you know I love to get woo. I feel like we're talking Yeah, yeah. Like Nicki (28:32) Yes. Nicole Cloutier (28:34) copies and they're imperfect copies, which almost makes them better in nature, Nicki (28:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (28:38) right? When it's like not I mean, that's literally now we're talking about how you get genetic modification. Like Nicki (28:43) Mm. Yeah, really, exactly. Nicole Cloutier (28:45) making a copy but a little bit different. So like Nicki (28:47) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (28:48) gonna start breeding a dog that is less likely to bite me. Making a a copy. Nicki (28:51) Mm, mm hmm I Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (28:55) Yeah. but then we start to get into the root. so it comes from two two parts, right? We get the beginning, which comes from com, which is with, and Nicki (29:05) Okay. Nicole Cloutier (29:06) then opes, which is like opus, which is power, wealth, and resources. So a copy, a cornucopia shares the root too. So it it's this combination of with. Nicki (29:19) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Communications, yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (29:19) Which is in a lot of words, right? We get this with, yeah. Yes, exact yeah. my gosh. And then opus, which is the power, wealth, and resources. and the very root word is the Proto-Indo-European op, which is to work or produce in abundance. Yes. Nicki (29:39) I'm impressed and and a little bit excited to just see how much abundance is really built into the word copy. That's fascinating. Nicole Cloutier (29:50) Yeah. And it's interesting that we start to bring in like when you go further back, the concept of like power and wealth is also there. Nicki (29:57) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (29:58) Which, you know, one of the things I love about this podcast in doing this is I I feel like when you get back this far into the root of a word, you realize, like it still carries this meaning even though we're not like consciously thinking of it. Like Nicki (30:11) Yes, yes. Writers, reclaim your power and your wealth. Don't let it take be taken away from you. Nicole Cloutier (30:16) Yes. Yeah, and it's an abundance of words but also wealth. Abundance. Nicki (30:22) Abundance of income, power and wealth, friends, power and wealth. It's okay. Nicole Cloutier (30:28) okay, some other cousin words. I always love doing this. Copious, literally a cousin word from the same op root. And then we also have cornucopia, which I mentioned, a horn of plenty. We also have opulent or opulence. Mm-hmm. Yes. Or copulence. my gosh, yeah, of course. Nicki (30:42) Mm. Or copulants. Well I guess copul well copulate. Yes. Copulant, copulate. Wait a minute, yes. I d I was trying to coin something new, but then it still went in a weird Nicole Cloutier (30:54) We're abundant we're abundating. Nicki (30:56) direction. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (30:58) Yeah. We're gonna leave that in there, Nikki. We're not we're not editing that out. That was bro. Nicki (30:59) Yeah. Yeah. yeah, absolutely. There's someone who's like a copulant's gonna be my new business name and it's just meh. I mean give it a try, you know. Nicole Cloutier (31:09) Hey, it might work. Nicki (31:11) My part. Nicole Cloutier (31:13) cooperate is here too, which is fun. Yes. So Nicki (31:17) Sure. Nicole Cloutier (31:18) working together for abundance. Mm-hmm. Nicki (31:21) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (31:22) Mm-hmm. Yeah. so the connection between cooperate and copy is there's also this like operai, operary, sorry, operary, which is to work, which comes from the same author. root. So we're kind of combining Latin here. So we have to work together. a surprising one, one that I mispronounce all the time, especially as we're wedding planning and I is hors d'oeuvre. Yeah. Nicki (31:48) Hors d'oeuvre, interesting. Nicole Cloutier (31:50) Yeah. And that literally means outside the work. So we get that connection with the operary. Yeah. Outside Nicki (31:55) sure. Sure. Nicole Cloutier (31:58) the work. Wait, how how does hors d'oeuvre mean outside the work though? Nicki (32:02) Well, I believe in French euvre is both egg and and your your body of work. so I guess it would also mean outside the egg. Nicole Cloutier (32:14) Yeah. Nicki (32:15) or I guess or H O R S must be outside. I feel like I should know this. But interesting. All right, so Nicole Cloutier (32:24) Yeah. Yeah. Nicki (32:27) I can't think of what the what the French word actually the day-to-day French word for outside is. But anyway, Nicole Cloutier (32:35) Yeah. I feel like I I should Wait, are we both Googling? Nicki (32:39) But then also you you have to wanna like so okay, I get I get outside the work for or d'oeuvre. Nicole Cloutier (32:45) Yeah. Nicki (32:46) but then how does it become past apps, you know? Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (32:49) That's I mean that I guess that's the connection I'm trying to make, but I guess it's like outside the main course. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I looked up outside in French while we were talking to it. It's Nicki (32:54) okay. Yep, yep, yep. I could see that. Sure. Sure. What is it? Nicole Cloutier (33:02) de ours. So it's ours, Nicki (33:04) D Nicole Cloutier (33:06) but there's a D E in front of it. Yeah. Okay. We got it. We got there. Yes. Nicki (33:07) Okay, sure. Yes. All right, we can move on. Thank you, French. Appreciate it. Nicole Cloutier (33:14) Yes. and then we have Officinal. Some reason it doesn't have office here, but office in all work or workshop. It's they're cousins of like work or workshop, Nicki (33:25) Okay. Nicole Cloutier (33:26) opus, oporose. and then one, there's one connection that is disputed by etymologists, and that is optimism. So some etymologists connect the two, and some say that optimism is from a different root, which is like most esteemed or richest. Nicki (33:49) okay. I could see that. D what about like operate? Is that one in there too? Nicole Cloutier (33:54) Ooh, we don't have it in here. But I suppose it could be. Nicki (33:56) Interesting. And then actually to go back like copulate, I would think has got to be one of the cousins, considering you Nicole Cloutier (34:03) Yeah. Nicki (34:03) are creating multiples of something. Interesting. Can you do right? I'm not just a copywriter. Nicole Cloutier (34:06) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nicki (34:11) I'm a girl who loves words. Yes. Absolutely. Nicole Cloutier (34:13) I mean, they are the tools of our trade. We have to dig into them. It's super fun. Okay. so next I have some quotes for you. Nicki (34:23) Ooh. Nicole Cloutier (34:24) and I thought we could just like look at them and discuss them. Nicki (34:27) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (34:28) so of course, okay, I'm gonna start with this one. I almost like didn't want to include it. It's Eugene Swart, Eugene Schwartz, who's like copywriter. If you're gonna read a quote from a copywriter, it's gonna be Eugene Schwartz. Nicki (34:39) That's the way to go. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (34:41) We'll do this one first. So he says copy is not written. If anyone tells you you write copy, sneer at them. Copy is not Nicki (34:48) Mm. Nicole Cloutier (34:49) written. Copy is assembled. You are building a little city of desire for your person to come and live in. Your Nicki (34:57) Mm. Nicole Cloutier (34:57) thoughts, Nikki. Nicki (35:00) I think it is written like a true copywriter. Talk about like making copy, bringing it up into the clouds, you know. This is you copywriting is is totally distinct and different. And it's it's yeah, is it assembled? Sure, because it's you are like taking your your your pieces, right? You're taking your pieces together to assemble your assemble your word puzzle. but that's also it's such a writer to be like, no, no, no. It's not written. It's assembled. Like okay. I see what you're saying. I see what you're doing there, but like come on. Come on. Nicole Cloutier (35:38) Really copywriters are just annoying MFA students. Nicki (35:40) I mean re I mean f this is where most of us come from, you know. We we all go, wait, I could make a little bit living at this. I I guess I'll give this a try. Yeah. Yeah. Sneer. Sneer Nicole Cloutier (35:49) Yeah. And I love he's like sneer at them. If anyone tells you sneer Nicki (35:54) at them. I sneer at you, sir. Nicole Cloutier (35:57) Yeah. But I do like one turning point for me in like writing good copy was learning the importance of research. And I think that might be also a little bit what he's saying, right? Like you can't you can write a good turn of phrase, a good sentence and people will like it, but like the research I think is what makes it very conversiony. Nicki (36:14) Yeah, absolutely. the elements that have to go into it. and unfortunately I think this is a lot of people who think they're they're getting into like I'm getting into copywriting. I'm just now I'm just gonna start writing. They think, I can just write a sentence and I can ooh, and this is ooh, this is funny, or this is clever, or this is and if it doesn't achieve its purposes, it's it's utterly useless. It can be the cutest phrase ever. It can be we've all had to to kill our darlings at one point or another, go, I love this line, but it does not work here, and we have to pull it out because it doesn't achieve the purposes of the piece. Nicole Cloutier (36:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is why sometimes you need a copy editor. Sometimes I need one of my copy friends who I probably met through you in the CCA. Need one of my Nicki (36:53) Yeah. Love it. Nicole Cloutier (36:56) cop I'll send I'll send Sarah. Sarah, hi, I'll give you a shout out. I'll send her my copy and be like, could you kill my darlings, please? Yeah. Nicki (37:02) Yeah. It's like I love this. Save this 'cause someday you'll need to know that you that you wrote this, but yeah. Nicole Cloutier (37:11) Okay, let's look at some maybe less less obvious quotes. So Jimi Hendrix says, Nicki (37:18) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (37:19) I've been imitated so well, I've heard people copy my mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. Nicki (37:24) Ooh, that's good. That's good. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (37:29) he was not like a perfect, you know, guitar player. Nicki (37:31) Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (37:31) So like he'd make fluffs in his songs, but then people would just copy them. Yeah. Yeah. Nicki (37:35) Mm. Hmm. Interesting. Well it's that that the jazz and improvisation and that kind of it's it's hard to tell what was intended and what was what was an improvisation and what was maybe possibly a a mistake. Interesting. Nicole Cloutier (37:49) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And now my brain's thinking of plants again. Like the imperfect copies. Okay. Yeah. Imperfe how imperfect copies can be better than copies. Yeah. Nicki (37:58) yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Then the original, sure. Nicole Cloutier (38:03) Did you ever do like copy work when you were like first learning copywriting or to improve? Like, you know how some people will take a copy, like or take like a control and then just hand copy it in order to get that. my god, what are your feelings? I know this is a tangent, but Nicki (38:15) I have such strong feelings about this. Such strong feelings. It's so stupid. It's so stupid. That's right. I said it and I know that there are some old school copywriters that are like, no, that's how you have to learn it. It's so dumb. You don't learn anything by just copying, by just writing the words. if you're trying to learn, you you can memorize things very well. That's a good if anybody's trying to memorize something, it's a great technique to handwrite something. It helps your brain memorize it. But in terms of actually learning why something works or why something doesn't work or learning, to to just hand copy something is is almost useless. It's so much better to take look at a piece of copy and think, okay. What is this copy trying to achieve? Who are they trying to talk to? What is what are they trying to convey? what are they not trying to convey? Who are they not talking to? And analyze it that way, like really think it through, and then i bonus points, go through and and rewrite it to try to make it better. But to just literally sit and hand copy like, okay, I'm gonna sit and hand copy got milk. What did you learn by writing that down? And I know that there is there the the Bob Bly school of of old school copywriting was like, yeah, the best way to learn learn how to write copy is to handwrite. I mean, like, think about it. It just doesn't make any sense, you know? You you don't learn how to write War and Peace by sitting down and copying War and Peace. You might get comfortable with a style if you if you wanted to write in a certain style, you might get more comfortable in a style because you're writing a thousand pages of it, but you're not going to learn to write effective copy. by hand copying something. I have very strong feelings about this. I think it's such a dumb piece of advice that people for years have like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how you do it. That's how you learn it. No, like think about it. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (40:12) Yeah. Yeah. It's very it's very bro markety tactic, I feel like. Yeah. Nicki (40:16) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (40:17) Yeah. for some reason a a comparison that's coming to my mind is I read I read Georgia O'Keefe's biography last year. Yeah. Nicki (40:25) Ooh, yeah. Nicole Cloutier (40:26) And she actually like she was teaching at like an elementary school. She was teaching art. I forget the age of the the students, but they were young. And she okay, she either got kicked out of the school or she quit. like in a rage. Like it was like, no, I'm not doing this anymore. Yeah. Either Nicki (40:40) Either way, at a girl. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (40:42) way. She like, you know, it was not like on friendly terms. But she left because they wanted her to do still lives and they wanted her. And she was like, no, I just want to like give them paint and like, you know, let them explore and do it on their own too. And I yeah, that's just coming to my mind too, because I feel like a lot of school of thought is like copy until like imitate until you get good. but there's something to be said too for like just knowing what you want to achieve and like trying your own way there. Nicki (41:11) Well, I mean, even copying in the art sense, you are looking at a technique, seeing how they did it, and then trying to trying to reproduce it. But there's still an analysis there, right? Whereas Nicole Cloutier (41:27) Yes. Nicki (41:28) when you are an analysis and practice and and finesse and and literally motor control, but when we're talking about copying a certain set of words. in handwriting a certain set of words, you're not those same things are not being translated in that same way. Nicole Cloutier (41:47) Hm, yeah. No, yeah, I'm glad you made that distinction. That's yeah, very true. 'Cause your handwriting doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. Nicki (41:51) Mm-hmm. Yeah, right? Like nobody cares about handwriting. Exactly. Exactly. so handwriting is what one step back from from retyping. And it wait Nicole Cloutier (42:01) Mm-hmm. Nicki (42:01) like retype this ad to learn this ad. Well, that doesn't make any sense either. It Nicole Cloutier (42:06) Yeah. Nicki (42:07) r handwriting things has been proven to help you memorize them, but so let's set aside memorization for a second. so handwriting is tantamount to To typing if you are not talking about memorization. Okay, so then you're just looking at an ad and you're retyping it? I mean, talk about copying, right? That is just, Nicole Cloutier (42:22) Mm-hmm. Nicki (42:24) you are just retyping something. And I the idea that you could learn, learn an entire career by just retyping something, or rewriting for that matter, is just, it's laughable to me. Nicole Cloutier (42:33) Yeah. Nicki (42:40) Come at me, internet. But it is it is laughable. When you really think it through it doesn't make any sense. Nicole Cloutier (42:46) Nikki has opinions on this. I love it. Nicki (42:47) Such strong opinions. Nicole Cloutier (42:51) okay. I love that so much. okay, so we're gonna start to wrap up. We're gonna wrap up with some rapid fire questions. Ready? Nicki (42:58) Ooh, exciting. Nicole Cloutier (43:01) Okay. Is the word copy sweet or salty? Nicki (43:05) Mm, actually salty. Yeah, yeah. Nicole Cloutier (43:07) Ooh, okay. Yeah. Nicki (43:09) it's a more savory than than sweet. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. At least in Nicole Cloutier (43:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. I agree. Nicki (43:14) in in to these taste buds. Nicole Cloutier (43:16) Yeah, yeah. If it were a colour, what colour do you think it would be? Nicki (43:21) I'm getting blue immediately, but that may be connotations to my dad, 'cause my dad's favorite color was blue. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Copy is very, Nicole Cloutier (43:29) Yeah. No, I love that. Nicki (43:31) very interconnected with my dad in my mind, since he taught me how to do it. Nicole Cloutier (43:35) Hm. Well and there's also a lot of trust in the color blue, which you need trust. Yeah. Nicki (43:38) Mm, true. True. Yeah. Tr trust and loyalty and yeah, it's true. Nicole Cloutier (43:44) Yeah, yeah. should the word copy be whispered or shouted? Nicki (43:52) Mmm. I think probably shouted, but I think of it more as stated definitively. Copy! Nicole Cloutier (43:58) Hmm. Yeah. Nicki (44:01) Yeah. I d whisper is not gonna get you anywhere. And in our industry you can't I think sometimes we may wait may wanna whisper, but you know what? You just have to you have to either state it firmly or or shout it. Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (44:14) Yeah. I I had an argument with with Claude the other day. 'Cause it loves Nicki (44:18) Ha ha ha. Nicole Cloutier (44:19) to say like, you know, you're not you're not shouting, you're whisper like your brand whispers. And I like, No, it doesn't. Why are you saying that? Nicki (44:25) That's it. No. No. Claude is a strong affinity for the words quietly as well. Makes me crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole Cloutier (44:32) Such a strong yeah. Such a strong affinity for quiet. okay, so as we as we wrap up, as people go on their the rest of their days, what definition, if they were to leave with Nikki's definition of the word copy, like after everything we've talked about, what do you want them to Nicki (44:48) Mm. Nicole Cloutier (44:49) to take away from this? Nicki (44:50) Ooh, how about writing that brings you abundance? I mean you Nicole Cloutier (44:53) Yeah. Nicki (44:54) set me up for that one, Nicole. I d did not come in with that, but yeah. Nicole Cloutier (44:58) Yeah. Yeah. I love it. and for listeners who are like like me, which I think is a lot of them who are interested in the in the woo aspect, I mean the etymology carries that. The etymology is there, it's in the root. Yeah. Nicki (45:10) Yes. That's not me. That's it's history. You can't argue with history. Nicole Cloutier (45:18) okay. I love that so much. Okay, Nikki, I like I said at the beginning, I'm so glad you are here. I'm so excited to introduce people to you and you and your work if they have you haven't already, where is the best place for them to go to find you, to learn more about you? Nicki (45:32) Thank you. when is this coming out? Nicole Cloutier (45:35) good question. This is, let me I can tell you exactly. This will be August 27th. Nicki (45:42) August 27th. Okay, it's a good due day. they can find us on socials at at look for us nope, take it back, sorry. I'm like, I don't know what our new socials are gonna be because comprehensive copywriting Nicole Cloutier (45:54) Well Nicki (45:55) academy is too long. they can find us at the CCA.co. We couldn't get dot com. It's too expensive. That's nobody's got that kind of money. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole Cloutier (46:08) Is just as good, if not better. Yeah. And we will put that in the show notes so people can go find that link and maybe social links. Future social links. Nicki (46:16) Social links, exactly. Yes, I'll I'll send those to you. There there is the the the Filthy Rich Writer site, which is kind of where we have our some some content and then our build your copywriting p business podcast. But yeah, the the cca.co, the new site, I now commit to having up by the time this goes live. Nicole Cloutier (46:35) Amazing. And yeah, everyone, go check it out. If you wanna write better copy, I would recommend Nikki above everybody else. So check it out. Thank you so much for being here, Nikki. Nicki (46:42) thank you. Thank you. it's my pleasure. Thank you.