Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / Why relationships trigger anxiety and avoidance #9

Transcript

Why relationships trigger anxiety and avoidance #9 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: M hm, Hey, welcome to free therapy. I'm Ben and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I'm Kevin. And before we get into it, I just
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: wanted to paint a picture to everyone of what is
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: going on with Kevin right now. So we're sitting down
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: recording this and as he walked in, he's like, oh,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: it's so hot. It's not that hot, but he's like,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: it's so hot. And so he comes in. The first
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: thing he does takes off his shoes and socks and
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: he's sitting down.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Your feet, hold all the heat in your body, feeding
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: our pits.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, oh for sure. Learn something new every day.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: So he's here hanging out. I feel like we're in
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're in your house right now.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in the editing bay recording studio. But you know,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: it's nice to take off your shoes. You feel a
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: little we're safe.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna take off my shake off your shoes, Benny,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I'm taking off my shoes.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: Comfortable.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get my socks.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: On, like you're home.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I'm always warm and put my feet up. My girlfriend
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: loves it because she gets cold, and so I'm like,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: anywhere we are heater.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's a nice it's a nice added symbiotic. Call
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: it like a yan and a yang yang. Okay, should
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: we tell them what the podcast is?
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: We should so for all of you who haven't heard
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: the show, Every week Ben and I sit down with
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: a different therapist and we talk about the stuff that
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: most guys struggle with but nobody says out loud. And
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: this week we get into attachment styles.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: You know that feeling when someone doesn't text you back
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: and your rain goes straight to the worst case scenario.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: We things start getting really really good and out of nowhere,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: you want to pull away and find a reason that
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: it won't work. That stuff's not random. That's your attachment
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: style and most of us are really never taught about it.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this week we get into attachment styles with
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: German psychologists Jenny Mining and Surprised. Surpris Benny and I
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: are both anxious, yes we are, But what's funny is
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: we also have avoided tendencies. I've been pretty avoidant in
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: past relationships as well, and we learned how normal that was.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Here's what we did learn in the episode. Your attachment
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: style is the blueprint for your relationships. It was built
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: when you were a kid, based on how your parents
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: and family showed up for you. If they were reliable
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and made you feel safe, you probably are leaning more secure.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: If they were hot and cold, you probably learned to
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: chase their love or run from it. And that blueprint
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: quietly runs every relationship you've ever had since without you
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: even realizing it.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And there's three main attachment styles. So anxious is when
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: any little shift in someone's mood reads is them pulling
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: away and you start to spiral. They cancel last minute
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: and you're reading into it. Their tone goes a little flat,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: and your brain's already at the worst case scenario. Right
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: underneath all of this is one real question, are they
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: going to leave me? So you're constantly just chasing the
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: reassurance that they're not.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: And the second attachment style is avoidant, which is the
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: exact opposite. When things start to get close, you want
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: to pull back. You're spending more time together, The relationship
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: gets a label, and suddenly you're noticing every little thing
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: wrong with them and you're like, I'm out.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: And then secure is really the one we're all After
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: things get close and you lean in instead of running,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: they cancel plans and you assume they're busy, not leaving,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and if something is off, you just communicate and ask
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: instead of testing them or going cold or getting angry.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: And there's also this fourth one called disorganized. We're not
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: really going to cover much of it, but that's when
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: anxious and avoidant are happening at the same time. It's
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: a come here, go away. But really those three anxious, avoidant,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and secure are the ones you're gonna hear the most about.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: And even from hearing this, I'm sure you probably already
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: know which one is you. So in this episode we're
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: gonna go into where these patterns come from, why anxious
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: people and avoiding people always find each other in relationships,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: and how to finally break the cycle and become more secure.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Enjoy the show. Jenny Mining, Welcome.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: To the show.
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: Good to have you here so already.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Jenny Minen is a German psychologist and has two masters
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in clinical psychology, that's right, and a master's in marriage
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: and family that's right. And you did both your thesis
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: on attachment theory, yes, and so when we connected that
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: was the first place we went. And it's something that
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Ben and I I think have navigated and struggled a
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: lot with our own attachment styles, and I'm really excited
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: to dive into that.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: I think the one thing you said.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: When we first met that hit me immediately. You said,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: the way we give and receive love is really based
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: on our attachment styles. That's right, What did you mean
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: by that?
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: It's interesting because the way we learn to give and
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: receive love is space on our childhood, and our attachment
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: style is based on how we have a relationship with
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: our parents, how reliable they are, and how they show
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: up for us. And it's often those two things that
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: bring it together, Like the way they show up for
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: you and how you learn to give and receive love
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: is the way you show up in your romantic relationships
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: later on.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: So, like, what about if someone were to start to
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: explore this that yeah, never has, like how their relationship
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: with their.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Parents and their family dynamics now influence their own love life.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: How would they begin to explore that.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: Well, it's really interesting because what you're going to have
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: to do, it's not even that you have to consciously
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: look at the patterns. What's happening is is that it's
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: your blueprint for romantic relationships. And oftentimes you'll just see
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: what your biggest need is in a relationship. So if
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: you really want to say, hey, I want to be
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: more aware of what the patterns are that I'm creating
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: in my romantic relationships. And notice I have the most
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: tension when I'm trying to seek closeness with someone, or
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: when I want more distance, or sometimes it just doesn't
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: feel like I can find a partner who meets my needs.
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: So to really go back to the basics and see
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: what is it that I feel I have the most
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: friction with, and then you'll see, oh, usually I have
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: a problem the moment it gets closer in my relationships,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: that's when I start to like take a step back.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: Like every time it gets it's all so good, it's
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: so fun, it's so nice, and the moment it gets
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: more intense, I get scared and I pull back. Right,
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: So you'd be like, oh, my pattern is to pull back,
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: which would put you more in the category of being
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: someone who's avoidance or you're someone who needs more reassurance.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Like you notice, oh, like everything can go well and
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I feel like, oh my, that
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: might abandon me, Like this what could happen, like if
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: this is really good right now, but like at the
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: end of the day, can I really trust that person
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: to be reliable and be there for me? So what
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: you'll do is you seek ways that give you this security,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: and you try to like create that closeness, right, which
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: often if it's an unhealthy way and you didn't learn
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: how to ask for closeness, which often we don't even
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: learn how to ask for close ti yah in a
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: proper way, right, Like, often we'll just like act out
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: and try to gain control and secure like that secure
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: feeling through actions. So if you have that function and
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: you need more reassurance and you have more of a
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: fear of abandonment, you usually are more anxiously.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Attached, right. So it sounds like to heal or to
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: start to heal your attachment style. It comes from being
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: in relationship with people because like for me, I didn't
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: even know how bad my anxious attachment style was until
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: I got into a serious relationship. Yeah, and then I
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is not healthy for anybody. I'm
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: always uncomfortable, I'm needing reassurance. I need someone to validate
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: me or make me feel close to them. But then
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: that actually is making the relationship worse by needing the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: other person to make me feel a certain way. And
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: so in relationship, I'm trying to heal through giving myself
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: what I need and not asking my partner to make
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: me feel less anxious. But I didn't even know, Like
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I knew I was anxious, but I didn't know how
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: that was showing up in relationship. And so now every
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: time I feel that reaction in my body, instead of
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: like going to my partner, I'm like, oh, wait, like
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: what do I need to do right now? Why? What
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: do I need to tell myself exactly? But it's been
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: it's still hard. It's been ten months, and I still
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: get anxious when I don't get a text back, you know, hughes,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: sorry babe, but it's like it's just like if it's
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: three hours, I'm like, how fuck? Oh shit? Ten months,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: but I'm still like and I'm and I'm and I'm.
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: You know, yeah, you know, it's I'm gonna give my
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: personal opinions. It's so hard because, as you said, yes,
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: there is no better teacher than any relationship when it
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: comes to understanding yourself better. And I want to say
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: I was very lucky that I would have more so
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: like I had a partner when I was in my
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: early twenties, and I was insanely evoltantly attached, like I
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: was just like you couldn't catch me if you wanted to,
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: Like I just like one after another and I wasn't.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: I was in this really.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: Sorry, we've been there.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: I've been there.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: That's okay.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: But I met my long term relationship. We were together
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: for like four or five years in Germany, and he
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: was so secure that he just like with a definitely
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: huge dash a dash of anxious because if he had
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: really good boundaries, he would have probably been like, I'm out,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: but he was so patient with me. I was just
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: so like all over the place, I try to sap it.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: I would dose things, be like, oh, after this, he'll
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: definitely want to leave me. Because I didn't want to
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: break up. I like, you know, like that was way
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: too much of a burden. So I would just act
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: out in so many ways. And it was really interesting
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: to see like he was so calm and he so
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: steadily loved me through this entire time. I was so
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: unconscious back then because I wasn't aware of patterns. I
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: wasn't aware of like I just had started my first degree.
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: I was aware of patterns I wasn't aware of, you know,
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: what's really happening in my body and how I'm bring
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: my freaking childhood trauma into relationships. It was more so, oh,
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: like I'm understanding, like he's gonna like he'll be here
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: no matter what. I can rely on him, I can
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: trust him and he's there and no matter what. And
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: in my brain when I was so young, I was like,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: oh that really like made me calm down, made me
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: be more vulnerable, made me open up in that relationship.
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: So it was really interesting to see how that relationship
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: also partly fostered me, allowing me to become more secure
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: at the same time. Granted I started to do more
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: work and work and understand it, but he really was
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: like incredibly helpful for me to understand myself better in
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: that way. And like now like, oh, like love can
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: look different as relationship.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you have a question.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Why are anxiously attached people attracted to avoidance O.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: The anxious avoidant dynamic is the most common dynamic. And
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: it's so funny because everyone would just go like why
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: if that one wants that and that one wants that like,
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: why would those two people.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Find each other so different?
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: You've never seen anxious and anxious with an avoid It's
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: just like they're like, you know, it doesn't happen. It's
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: so funny. And if you boil it down, is that
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: you don't seek what you want, you seek what you're
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: familiar with. You recreate the pattern that.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: The most from your childhood.
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: Yes, right, so you'll be like, oh, I guess again,
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: Like we should do a whole other episode on the
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: subconscious and the conscious mind because it's fascinating to understand.
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: You can say all you want is you said too,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: like you're you know, working on it. You're conscious, but
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: like you're subconscious still when you don't get a tax
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: back is piss off ye, And that's just like a
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: response that is so primal, right, And so in the
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: same way, when you look for these dynamics, it reminds
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: you of something in the past, and it feels familiar,
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: and even though it's not what you want or is
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: good for you, familiar feels better than unknown. It's like, oh,
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: like this is and it almost feels like you can
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: in another function. That's really interesting that I've seen a
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: lot with clients as too, this function of ooh, he
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: subconscious believes that you can fix the dynamic from the past,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: like if I get him to love me and he's
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: so like he's so like my dad, he's so you know,
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: like untouchable and like little way, but he loves me
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: and he wants to make this work. Like if I
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: can get him to, you know, to love me the
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: way my dad never did, like, then I'm fixing the
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: loop and fixing the pattern, right right, So.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: But that's solving you. You think by getting that person
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: to love you, you'll solve that inner child pain that
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: maybe you have.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and close like the unlovable like I am lovable, I.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Am worthy, And then when you get into that relationship
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: what shows.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: Up as the anxious one. Yeah, Well, what you do
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: is you try to prove your worth over and over
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: and over again. You try to prove like that that
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: you're worthy in the relationship. You try to prove that, oh,
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: I am someone who won't be abandoned. The problem is, though,
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: with anxious people that they often try to gain that
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: security in unhealthy ways, well, trying to be controlling, trying
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: to let's say you've learned in a couple of hours
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: with the texting that it works, but often someone who's
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: more anxious would be like, why are you not answering,
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: like and it's like you should have answered me by now,
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: Like this makes me feel like you don't care for
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: me and I don't matter, right, So this like protest
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: behavior in a way. So that's a good example or
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: trying to see, Okay, like how can I create like
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: more commitment and more closeness so I have the feeling
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: that they can never leave me, Like you can feel
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: that energy though, like.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Clinging like swallow. So anxious people will try to control,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: they'll try to suffocate, right, So that's like an anxious
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: type of So if you, I guess, if you do
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: those things or you feel like you're doing those things,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: that's a way of like labeling who you are because
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if people can understand
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: truly what their attachment style is until they've heard examples
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: of what it looks like totally, Like how an anxious
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: speaks about what their needs are in the dynamic and
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: what the avoidance says what they're like, I've had a
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: hard time vocalizing my needs as an anxious person because
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid if I say something, I'm going to sound
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: needy or I'm going to sound like I'm too much right,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: and so I have to somehow and I'm doing this.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: But it's like when something bad happens and you pull
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: away without telling me, I get scared. Yeah, And for
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: me to even say that is like I'm just a
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: needy dude.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: But then I want my partner to be like, when
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: things are hard for me, I need some space.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, well, just I need you
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to tell me that, yeah, right, because then there's that's a.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: Job for the.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think I want to maybe like give
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: examples of how what an avoidant would say or what
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: an anxious would say, because I think it's I don't know,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I think it's hard to know how to say how
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: to speak your needs.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: So for example, like one that I think we talked
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: about on the call earlier, Let's say you're starting to
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: date someone and you're like a couple of months in
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: and there's like a big family it's like a wedding,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: like a family wedding or something, and you're avoidant. And
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I've been in the situation in the past where like
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: there's a big shabbat or something, and like, maybe it's
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: something that I can tell they are curious about, and
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: are they Why aren't Why aren't they being invited? But
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: there's like some family dynamic or something that there's a
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: reason for it.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I would usually just avoid it, and then it would
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: always come to fucking bite me in the ass.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Right, How would a secure person have that conversation?
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, first of all, you said it right. What you
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: shouldn't do is just brush over it, not bring it
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: up or make up an excuse. What you would do
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: if you're a secure person, you would sit down and say, like, Hey,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: there's something I wanted to talk to you about. There
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: is the wedding of my brother coming up in a
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: few weeks, and I really want to say that I've
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: been enjoying to get to know you, and I love
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: where our relationship is going and the pace that we're at,
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: and I just wanted to express that I'm not sure
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: if we're at the point where it would make sense
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: that we go to my brother's wedding together. What are
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: your thoughts on that?
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: M beautiful?
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Nice, not over not even over explaining it and.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Having to sit there and wait.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you think about that? Well, yeah, you're right,
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: we've been dating for four weeks. Yeah, makes sense.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: It makes me sad that you don't feel like we're
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: as close as I feel we are.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: If it was my brother's wedding, I would.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Want you that right now.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: Ooh, that's really good. So I can see where you're
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: coming from, and I think I really look forward to
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: going to weddings together one day as we progress a relationship.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: But I realized that I work best when it takes
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: things slow, and that way I can really build something
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: real and meaningful when I take my time.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Nice. Wow, I love that. That's great.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: So it sounds like when someone is more anxious, a
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: lot of the work isn't self worth.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: Yes, it is absolutely so.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: Forth it's all it actually.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure there's a lot in relationship, but
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: it sounds like it also has to do with them
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: doing a lot of self worth work to feel more
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: worthy without being needing to be validated all the time.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, it's what you just described, which is just like
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: an impossible scenario where your partner is never able to meet.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: All your needs.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: That work for that person is as you just said,
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: you can just break it down to I'm lovable really
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: like you just work on like, Hey, like I am.
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: I'm secure and confident in who I am as a person, right,
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I know what I have to offer. I'm not afraid
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: that they're going to leave me. And even if this
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: doesn't work out, I know I have the resilience to
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: get out of this and build up my confidence and
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: find the person's actually meant for me. Because you know what,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: I will find the person who's meant for me because
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: I'm lovable, Like there's eight billion people on the planet, like,
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: I will find my match who is an equal you
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: know to me? When it comes to love.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: How do attachment styles influence self image? If you're anxious,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: you might feel less self forth? I think, I mean,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I can speak from my own experience that I know
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I'm anxious and so I have a hard time loving myself.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: So my work has been to love myself. But what
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: about an avoidant or someone who disorganized? How does that
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: affect their self image?
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Funny enough, all of them, we can just put it
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: in two groups here, and that is secure and insecure.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: So all of the attachments that you mentioned, anxious, avoidant,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: and disorganized, they need to learn that I'm lovable and
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: work on their self confidence. Right, So because even again,
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: someone who's avoidant, they present way more like ooh, I'm
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: like untouchable and I'm you know, like I'm the best,
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: I'm the shit or whatever that is. But the underlying
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: fear is still ooh, I'm not good enough because like
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: when I grew up and I had emotional needs, no
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: one met them. And if no one meets my emotional
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: needs or pays attention to me, it means I can't
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: be worthy as a human being. But that person who's avoidant,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: who just learned more to shut down, I was like, oh,
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: if I just like shut it down, then I'll cruise
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: through it easier. So they have the same same function
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: and the same need, you know, to find that that
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: self worth and that it's maybe what's with a little
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: nuance of someone who's avoidant needs to find more safety
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: and being vulnerable, and someone who's anxious needs to find
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: more safety in the pause and you know, being with oneself.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: So avoidant practice your vulnerability, anxious practice pausing and coming
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: back to your own value and worth.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it's a.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Great distinction, like super simple, super clear. If you feel
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: that even if I can resonate with that, if I
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: feel those sentences coming up, like I can go back
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: to like I have worth, I have value, I can
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: be loved, like I bring things to this relationship.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: For me, it's crazy how obvious the problems that I
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: bring to a relationship now, are you know what I mean?
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Before I was like, I don't understand. Maybe what the
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: problem is with me in a relationship, I don't know.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: But now that I'm in a relationship, she'll literally be like,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I think you're way too reactive right now, and I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: don't understand what you're saying, so I think we should
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: take a pause right now. She's secure in that way,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: and I'm just like, but I don't even realize how
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: reactive I'm getting because I am anxious that I can't
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: get my point out. I'm coming from a place of fear.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And then it makes her feel more anxious because she's like,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: what the fuck are you saying to me? And I'm like, oh,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: you're right, And then we're and now I can feel
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: the reactivity coming in, and I know that that reactivity
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: is not safe for my girlfriend, who I love, So
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I want to treat her well. So then I'll take
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I'll take a beat and I'll be like, oh, what
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: am I actually feeling right now? And what do I
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: need to say? And sometimes I can't process it. I
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: need to go into therapy yeah, or I need to
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: pull out like Claude and be like I'm what the fuck?
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: And then I'm like oh, and then a day later.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: So when I did that, what I felt was and
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I didn't mean for it to sound like and now
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: can we talk about that part of it?
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: And she's open to it.
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: And that's the thing, Like repair is super important and
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: what you just said earlier with hey, you take a
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: pause and you reflect and then you come back the
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: next day. That's a healthy way, and that's a really
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: healthy way to repair.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Conflict is going to happen in every relationship, but it's
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: how you approach repair, right. Can you take responsibility, can
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: you be vulnerable? Can you commit to doing differently in
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: the future?
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And that feels like that's a great way to heal
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the attachment style too. Right, So you're going to have conflict, yes,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: even if you're super secure, you're going to have an
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: avoidant tendency, You're going to have an anxious tendency, right, Yeah,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: but in that argument or in that shutdown, or in
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: that space of missing each other, the real healing comes
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: from the repair. Yeah, the repair I think is also
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: you have to show up not confident, but like a
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: confidence to be vulnerable, because I think the repair is
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: scary because you're just opening yourself up to a part
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: of you that maybe feels unlovable.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Well, what's your experience with repair and conflict when you
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: were growing up or you used to do your parents
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: sit down and be like, hey, let's talk this through,
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: move through it and hug it out and move on,
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: or your parents like we push it under the rug,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: or like we just shout at each other and then
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: everything's just normal again. How did you learn how did
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: you learn love? You know? How did you how did
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: you learn conflict?
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: The pattern? Yeah? Yeah, that's true.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: You know that makes the biggest difference to kind of
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: see like what is your automated especially again subconscious, Like
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: work on your subconscious. It's so important when you're in
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: conflict and your nervous system is unregulated, You're not going
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: to react from your conscious mind of what you want.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: You're going to go back to your old patterns.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: It's very clear that how you develop your attachment style
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: and how you see love is based off of what
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you just see your parents do. Right. Basically, if they
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: ar you and brush under the rug, blow up love
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: crazy amazing, then bad? Like you see that right, your
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: parents did that. If you see parents repair, fine, But
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: for kids who see their parents in a tough dynamic
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: and then their parents look to them to make them
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: feel better, you become more anxiously attached because then you're
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: always checking the temperature of the household, needing to make
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: sure that the person you're closest to, the mom or
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: the dad, feels better. So you're always anxious in the
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: house because they fight, and then you're the kid and
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: you're like, oh shit, I need to make them feel exactly,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So then in dynamics and a relationship, you
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: become more anxious. So you seek out avoidance, which is
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: what your parents did right, They avoided it, and so
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: you look at that. But you you are anxious, so
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: it's harder for you to find someone more securely attached
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: because that's not what you saw love is. Then you
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: develop an ancios attachment style.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: Usually when you're someone who's the peacekeeper as you just
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: described in a family. What you learn is you're someone
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: who's sensitive, someone who can feel energy or you know,
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: read the room really easily, and someone who tries to
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: keep everything at bay hypervigilance. Yes, because what you learn
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: is like, oh, my needs can't get like my caregiver
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: is emotionally so unpredictive that usually when I need to
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: like check the room, understand and read emotions quickly to
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: see if my needs can get met. So that's why
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: you start learning on it. And that's when you, oh,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: oh my god, are you upset? Like you try to
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: check are you upset? Everything okay? You want to make
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: sure everything's okay because you don't want them you.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: Know where I always ask yeah all the time. When
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I got a look, I go, what was that earlier?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: And almost called you out on it to you, Yeah,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: you almost called it earlier, Like you ask me three
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: times if I was okay, And then I was like,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: he's doing the hypervidul and I knew he was doing it,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: and I didn't respond because I wasn't going to give
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: it to you. But it's okay because I do it too.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: We're sensitive to making sure. But that's not our fault.
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: That's oh yeah, I tend to do the.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Same, so I'm always I'm doing I'm just realizing that
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: I always I do this often in relationship and in
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: friendship too.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, what's up? What's up?
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like someone just like looks at me because you're uncomfortable.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: But how do I hear that part of it?
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: First of all, being aware of the fact that you're
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: not responsible for other people's emotions, like you have to
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: have it asn't mantrang I'm not responsible for other people's emotions,
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: and like, their mood is not a threat to me.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: Those two things, repeat them nice. Their mood is not
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: a threat to.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: Mood is not a threat to me.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And I'm not responsible for other people's emotions.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Right, I'm not responsible for other people's emotions, and their
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: mood is not a threat to me.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: But it was growing up, right because responsible and the
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: mood is a threat. And that's that's just what happens.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: That will have to.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: That's the next episode.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to make a generalization that I think
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: maybe is wrong, but I'm not a therapist, but this
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: is my assumption is that kids who become hyper vigilant
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: to the needs of a parent. I think stems from
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: men who are avoidant to their emotions. Because if an
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: avoidant man isn't really showing up in the relationship with
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: a woman, the woman tends to be like, I need
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: you here, I need you to be a partner for
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: me in this marriage. But the men are working and
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: the men are in touch with their emotions. So then
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the kid goes to the mom, the parent goes to
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: the kid for some emotional support, and the kids fills
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: the role. And that's where the hypervigilance comes from, because
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: they need, you know, they need to make sure that
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: the house is okay. Yeah, And I think if men
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: are our generation of men will be better at this,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: We are better at this showing up emotionally for women,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: because I know women today are like, what's the one
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: thing they want? When want a man who is more
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: in touch with their feelings, who can communicate more, who
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: can show up as a partner, not your supervider. You know.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: I think it's a really big shift because for the
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: first time in history, women don't need men. And like,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: I don't want to have this discussion of like, of
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: course we need men. I'm not someone who's like, oh,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: no one needs men, but women don't need men the
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: way we needed them in the past. Like women were
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: not allowed to have an own credit card until the seventies, Right,
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: that's not that long ago, right, Like you were very
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: like your survival and your status in society was dependent
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: on your marital status. And there's there's not this perceived
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: scrutiny anymore if you actually take care of yourself and
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: focus on yourself, on your career and your friendships, which
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: back in the days, it was all dependent on your
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: marital status and you need it. Like women had way
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: less opportunities than men when it comes to all things
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: in life, to buy a house, Like it wasn't easy
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: for women to buy a house by herself or climb
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: the career ladder in the same way. And there's still
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: areas where you see it's still not the same, but
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: there's more and more need of women needing as you said,
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: partners that are emotional equals versus I think back in
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: the days, it was way more of like, oh, that's
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: just how they are, you know. You know men, and
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: it's like, oh, it didn't matter because you had to
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: you were dependent on someone, so you had to make
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: it work. And I think more and more women are
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: choosing partners based on hey, like do they add to
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: my life and how do they show up? Versus Oh,
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: I just need them. So that's you know, where the
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: male lowness epidemic is, because it's their fault.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: It's men are not it's the male lowness epidemic is
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: more responsible on men that it is women in my opinion.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because like men have to do better nowadays. Back
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: then it was like, well, you know, earn a decent
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: salary and I show up and you know, it's like, oh,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: like okay, you didn't have to do work on yourself
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: or be a good partner in a lot of cases,
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: if you think of how many women stayed with men
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: that were not good partners to them because they didn't
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: have a choice, you know, or like they didn't want
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: to be scrutinized or whatever that was.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, amazing, Jenny, this has been so fun.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: It's been a great podcast episode.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Love thanks for coming on. This has been so enjoyable.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: Thanks for sharing you getting vulnerable?
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you? And are you taking new patients?
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: I am mostly active on Instagram at Jenny mine and
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: j E n N y M e I ny n
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: or Jenniminer dot com. I do sometimes work one on
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: one with clients, not in like the classic therapeutic setting,
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: but I have like a coaching and therapeutic modality that
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: helps you know to overcome patterns and become your best self.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I have a journal that's called Her Next
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Era which is for women, which is her Next Era
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: journal dot comlfriends exactly, the girl friends everyone who does
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: the inner work. And yeah, I always look forward to connecting.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: If you have any questions. I think this is super interesting.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: Maybe we'll do like an Instagram questionnairey if you have
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: questions or something comes up, like, just drop them in
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: a DM.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah you know, yeah, every therapy you're at Jennimine and
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: all that stuff exactly.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: I would love that. This is great.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Thanks for coming on, Jenny, appreciate you so much. Hey,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: thanks for listening. We appreciate you.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: talking about our feelings, you are definitely going to like
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: everything else.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Follow on on Instagram at free therapy and we'll see
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: you next time.