Latest / Content, Briefly / Zapier: Lane Scott Jones on content in the age of AI (and Zapier's pickleball strategy)

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Zapier: Lane Scott Jones on content in the age of AI (and Zapier's pickleball strategy) · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
  Hey folks, before we dive into today's podcast, I just wanted to let you know that the new and improved Superpath Pro is up and running, and it's awesome. So I'll just give you a quickie overview of what you get.
• 0:10
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• 0:20
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• 0:29
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• 0:38
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• 0:54
  [music] The difference between paid and organic is organic is the community and affinity that we're building up across multiple different channels and spaces,
• 1:05
  and that those things taken together actually become a really big part of what's driving the business. [music] Hey there, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of Content Briefly.
• 1:18
  Today, I'm very excited to bring Lane Scott Jones, director of content at Zapier, back for a round two. We first had Lane on July twenty twenty-three, so it's been a while.
• 1:29
  A lot has changed in the world, and I expected quite a bit has changed at Zapier too, which indeed it has.
• 1:34
  Lane mentioned on our first conversation, just as an example, that Zapier was publishing about eighty-five articles a month. Well, that's up to a hundred. The team has grown. Responsibilities have grown too.
• 1:44
  We talked quite a bit about SEO. They're seeing the same decline that a lot of other folks here have, and she has a very reasonable and very optimistic take on that. Basically, Zapier is diversifying content.
• 1:54
  They're also investing in more events and community. I'll just tease that they were doing pickleball meetups in twenty twenty-four and actually plan to expand that in twenty twenty-five.
• 2:04
  And Lane talks all about that, the reasons behind it, and some of the other things that she and the rest of the Zapier marketing team are working on. So great conversation. It was so good to have Lane back.
• 2:13
  I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do too. [music] This episode of Content Briefly is brought to you by our friends at Flying Cat Marketing.
• 2:21
  Are you frustrated by your SEO or content agency that just takes orders passively and doesn't advise or bring ideas proactively so that you can never really fully take your mind off the project?
• 2:30
  Or are you frustrated that they pick topics opportunistically rather than ones aligned with your product and go-to-market strategy?
• 2:35
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• 3:11
  Go to flyingcatmarketing.com or use the link in the show notes to learn more. [music] Content Briefly is produced by our friends at Minutia.
• 3:20
  To learn more about their podcast production service, as well as their other adaptive content marketing services, check out minutia.com in the show notes. Hey everybody, Jimmy from Superpath here today.
• 3:31
  So excited to have Lane Scott Jones from Zapier back. Lane, your episode, which aired sixteen months ago, still our most downloaded episode ever. So thank you for that, and thank you for coming back for an update too.
• 3:46
  So happy to be here. I loved our first conversation. Excited to talk about what's changed. Well, I'm gonna assume a whole bunch of things have changed, but let's get into it. You know, I was thinking about Zapier.
• 3:56
  I think about Zapier a lot because I think it might be the perfect SaaS company in the sense that the product makes every other product you use better, you know?
• 4:08
  So it's like this really nice layer that you just add on to all the other stuff you're doing, and then your life gets a little bit easier, and all the other products that you use become better.
• 4:17
  And I'm like, "Wow, what an amazing business model."
• 4:19
  [laughs] Anyways, that's sort of neither here nor there, but, like, from a content perspective, like, I was on the blog today just ahead of this call, and I felt overwhelmed because there's so much ground for you to cover,
• 4:32
  you know? And I'm just curious, like, do you feel that sometimes too, that there's, like, thousands and thousands of apps on the platform.
• 4:40
  There's a billion different ways people might use them, and then, like, where does that leave you as a content team? Like, how do you keep it all straight in your head? You know what I mean? Oh, yeah.
• 4:50
  If you think about it from the perspective of all the things that Zapier could do, it is extremely overwhelming. I think we have seven thousand integrations last time I checked. Yeah, that's so many.
• 4:59
  Um, it's so many, and every one of those could warrant its own blog post or content piece.
• 5:04
  So I think focus has been the name of the game for Zapier prior to me getting there, but especially recently, to figure out of all the things we could write about, where is the alignment with our t-target audience, with the topics that we want to develop authority on, and we luckily have a lot of data to show us what those are.
• 5:23
  So even things like app usage, integration usage, that can help guide us.
• 5:29
  But it certainly, I think Zapier, because it can do so many things, the question becomes how do we open up our readers' or customers' minds to, like, imagine all the potential that exists there? Yeah, yeah.
• 5:42
  Because a lot of people will come to Zapier with just the one use case in mind. It can even be just one- Right... simple integration.
• 5:48
  But what we want to do is take it from being sort of like the Lego block to the, the Lego kit, the Millennium Falcon that they can build on Zapier.
• 5:56
  And I think content actually becomes one of our main levers in helping people visualize the expansive nature of Zapier and how it could becomeNot just something that you plug in, but something that you can build your business on.
• 6:09
  Yeah. So we create a lot in the category that we call automation inspiration, which is essentially like, here's what you could build on Zapier, and trying to usher people into the understanding of the possibility there.
• 6:21
  Yeah. That's so interesting. I find myself, and I, I'm gonna guess there's a lot of other people who do the same thing, where I'm like, l- literally yesterday, I've got this spreadsheet. It's kinda messy.
• 6:29
  There's a lot of duplicates. And I'm like trying to figure out the formula I need to put in Google Sheets is... And then I have this thought of like, "Oh, I should use Claude or ChatGPT."
• 6:39
  Like, I bet it can either just do it for me or tell me the right formula, and it, it works in two seconds.
• 6:45
  And I find myself doing that same thing with Zapier too, where I'm like, you know, I'm like trying to do something, then I'm like, have this thought of like, there has to be a better way, you know?
• 6:53
  And then I'm like, "Hey, I know how to use Zapier. Let me go figure it out." You know what I mean? Like dumb example, like I needed to find the billing zip code for 2,500 Stripe payments.
• 7:04
  I'm like, "God, this is gonna take me absolutely forever." But I built this app in like two minutes, and it just did it all for me.
• 7:10
  You know, and I feel like, or the reason I say that is because I feel like a lot of us are probably like right on the verge of like, we don't have to do this ourselves anymore.
• 7:17
  Like, there's better ways to go about it, and making this shift to, exactly like you said, not just like the occasional use case here and there, but actually like building entire businesses on top of automation.
• 7:28
  It, it just makes- Yeah... when you think about it, it just makes so much more sense, especially today, that all this is totally possible. Yeah.
• 7:36
  And it, it's interesting to see how my comfort level with something like AI has gone from it being a, an afterthought to it being now like a key part of how I do my daily work.
• 7:46
  It has become that muscle that I now just reflexively go to. And I think Zapier and automation can be that same thing.
• 7:52
  But getting from surely this could be easier to the actual way that it becomes easier is, it's a big leap, and especially if you don't have a good grasp on all the capabilities of a tool, for instance.
• 8:05
  And we actually just created this experience on the Zapier site. You can find it plugged into a couple of blog posts now, which we're just calling like Automation Consultant.
• 8:13
  But you can type in your role and what you wanna do, and using AI, we will generate, like here's the workflow that you should run. Here's the Zap. Like, and you can click- Whoa... right into it and set it up in Zapier.
• 8:27
  So- That's crazy... it doesn't actually all just have to fall to the, to your individual, like logical reasoning skills.
• 8:33
  Now we're starting to build tools that actually let you take it from, okay, this is what I'm envisioning, all the way to here's, here's the template, like you can start building. That's wild. That's really cool. Yeah.
• 8:43
  It's very fun. That's- I've used it so much. How has content at Zapier changed? I mean, there's so many outside influences right now, you know?
• 8:54
  Like what's happened in the last, like let's see, if we're July, July 2023 was our last podcast. We're recording now November 2024. There's like 10 years of stuff that's happened in the meantime.
• 9:07
  Just curious, like how are you absorbing all these external inputs and factoring it all into what you and your content team are up to? Yeah. It truly a decade has passed since we last talked. Yeah.
• 9:18
  [laughs] A lot has changed. I think our company strategy has shifted, our marketing strategy has shifted, and that's come through into the content strategy in a couple of ways.
• 9:27
  Obviously, the widespread adoption of AI has been probably one of the biggest changes for everybody in the industry, but especially at Zapier, because AI and automation are so they go hand in hand. Yeah.
• 9:38
  They're almost synonymous.
• 9:40
  On the content side, our initial foray into AI was writing content about AI, like best AI image generators, best AI video tools, because that's the kind of content we're used to delivering to our audience.
• 9:53
  They're interested in learning about tech and apps and software from Zapier. And once we started writing about that, our content traffic doubled, tripled. I mean, it skyrocketed- Whoa...
• 10:03
  to levels of growth that just were staggering. And that was good and bad. I think the good part was that we saw a lot more traffic. We saw a lot more signups.
• 10:14
  But because that was such general interest content about AI, it wasn't necessarily people who were ready to go ahead and set up something in Zapier.
• 10:22
  But from a brand perspective, we do want to be known as a tool that is thought of when you think of AI and automation, you think of Zapier. So from a brand building perspective, that was really helpful.
• 10:33
  The trickier thing on the content side was what that did to, I mean, our data, our numbers. Oh, I c- yeah, I bet.
• 10:41
  And, and thinking about, we spent a ton of time really heads down on the way that we wanna balance that super high volume traffic with the content that we know drives conversions and thinking about what we would define as empty calorie content, where we can produce pieces that we know are gonna drive this enormous swell of attention at top of funnel, but we also know the conversion rates are vanishingly small.
• 11:07
  And so that's something I think every content team deals with, and it is like a familiar, maybe not on the scale of like this AI traffic, but it's a familiar problem.
• 11:16
  The thing that I think we had a breakthrough with was communicating that to our marketing leaders and our exec team, and really being able to lobby for using our discretion, because we know the numbers that matter.
• 11:29
  So whether- Yeah...
• 11:30
  those numbers are coming in from like really high volume, low converting top of funnel p- post or these sort of small niche mid-funnel and bottom funnel post, we now have buy-in to make that call and pull those levers in a way that we didn't before.
• 11:44
  And so that's- Yeah... been a big breakthrough for us. That's really interesting actually. I, yeah, I could totally imagine you have even a couple really successful pieces and now all of a sudden all your data's a mess.
• 11:55
  You're like, "Wait a minute, our conversion rate just went down." And it's like, I mean, relative to total traffic, sure. But y- you know, like not the absolute numbers. And then, but yeah, you have to like...
• 12:04
  Back in the animals days, we used to call those pieces whales.You know, 'cause like you don't wanna get rid of them, but at the same time, like you have to, as you're analyzing it, like you might wanna do an analysis with it and then filter it out and do an analysis without, and then compare so that you don't water it down too much.
• 12:22
  Super interesting, though. But you still want, I mean, you want this.
• 12:25
  Our data's a mess, too, because we have been ranking for terms about ChatGPT or best AI image generators, and when those start to fall in the rankings, our traffic plummets.
• 12:35
  So it creates- Yeah...a lot of artificial noise in our reporting- Right...that isn't really directional in how we want to shift or not shift our content strategy.
• 12:42
  So that's exactly what we've done is lobby to separate them out in reporting, and that has been so helpful. That's really interesting. That's cool. A good problem to have.
• 12:52
  You know [chuckles] like too much traffic, you know, that you have to figure out, like, just to sort of like make sense of, you know.
• 12:59
  When we talked last time, you had mentioned that the content team was putting out around, I think, 85 articles a month. Has that held steady, or have you adjusted that? We're now at 100 articles per month.
• 13:12
  Um- I was wondering if you might do it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eighty-five, those were the days. No. We actually, another change at Zapier is we have a slightly expanded our blog team, not...
• 13:23
  We did h- I think hire one or two new people coming in from outside of Zapier, but we've also shuffled around the content team to dedicate a few more in-house headcount just to the blog. Oh, interesting.
• 13:33
  And so that has let us expand the number of posts that we're putting out. So yeah, we're up to 100. Whoa, cool. Are those, are the new folks working on different things or supplementing existing things? Supplementing.
• 13:46
  So our new in-house hire is a writer, and she goes between top-of-funnel blog content and mid-funnel blog content, so she's sort of playing both sides.
• 13:55
  We've got a top-of-funnel editor and a mid-funnel editor, and that's just allowed us to increase our production. Dang. That's really cool. That's really cool.
• 14:03
  Are any of those pieces refreshes, or is that just the net new content?
• 14:08
  Yeah, so I should say the 100 and the 85, it always includes updates because, you know, the resources those take, and usually in a given month, 40% of our content produced is updates. Interesting. That's cool.
• 14:20
  That's cool.
• 14:20
  You know, I do find that, at least my own experience, updating stuff is, it is a little bit less difficult than net new, but like you still gotta run through like most of the same stuff, so I feel like it- Exactly...you know, like, I feel like it basically counts as getting a net new article out the door 'cause you still have to- Right...dot all the same I's and cross all the same T's.
• 14:41
  Exactly.
• 14:41
  And we want to demonstrate to leadership that we are producing at a high clip, but we also want them to get credit for the fact that these updates sometimes are big rewrites, require a lot of research, so they're included in our count.
• 14:54
  Yeah, yeah. I guess particularly if you're writing about emerging technology, like it- Exactly. Some of our-...can change incredibly quickly
• 15:00
  ...some of our best apps, articles require, you know, entire new testing of these different tools, so it can be a big undertaking. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, too, about corporate marketing.
• 15:12
  We were chatting a little before we hit record, and you had mentioned that you've been kind of dabbling in marketing outside of just content. I'd be curious just to hear about your experience with that.
• 15:23
  Like, what else is going on with marketing? What other things have you been working on? Yeah.
• 15:28
  So I think the other big change that's happened at Zapier is we're seeing these huge risks to SEO, and we're already starting to see declines coming from things like AI overviews and things like algorithm changes, and we just expect that to continue as I think most content- Yeah...marketers would predict.
• 15:45
  So one of my big areas of focus has been how we diversify the channels that we are distributing content and engaging our audience,
• 15:52
  and SEO will s- always be a pillar of our strategy, but we're really starting to expand it into new formats and new channels.
• 15:59
  So a big one that we have recently invested in, we hired a head of video growth, and we're doing a lot of YouTube- Oh, cool...a lot of short-form social.
• 16:08
  And I, I feel really optimistic about that as a, an untapped opportunity for us because it's helping us figure out how to sometimes even re- repurpose existing blog content, of course, in a channel-first way that feel, that will appeal on YouTube where people have different viewing habits.
• 16:25
  But it is, it's something we weren't really doing much of and now we're investing in precisely because we need to diversify the channels that we're getting content out.
• 16:34
  And I think just at a macro level, too, the way that AI is changing the landscape is making us think about differentiation in a, in a new way.
• 16:44
  So differentiation isn't necessarily going to come from just written content or increasing the volume of written content, which, you know, we already produce at a really high clip.
• 16:54
  I think it's going to start leaning to more of a human-led brand experience, and that happens in video.
• 17:03
  It happens in really, like, great POV written content, and I think it's also increasingly for us an investment in things like community and events.
• 17:12
  We've been experimenting with a lot of things that are relatively small scale and not super scalable as programs, but they're experimental because we're trying to figure out, like, what's the next frontier for marketing in this new landscape.
• 17:26
  Whoa. Cool. Can you tease any of that? Well, I can share, and shout out to my colleague Carly Moulton. She just recently ran a [chuckles] really small but really effective pickleball meetup for customers. Whoa.
• 17:38
  I love that idea. Yeah. Will you do one of those here? Yeah. I would go.
• 17:42
  And the best part was they got, like, branded swag, like pickleball, like, sweatbands, and it was so niche and so weird, honestly, but it resonated so much with the group of people that we brought there.
• 17:55
  And Carly's been doing meetups like that all over the country.
• 17:58
  She's, she and her team have been setting them up, like beach volleyball, you know, small moments where people can kind of like step away from their screens, connect with one another, and then we see this, like, swell of appreciation on social.And that she talks about a lot, we're kind of thinking about how to quantify if it's possible is the customer love metric and the long-term value of building that affinity.
• 18:23
  That's what we're starting to do at this grassroots level in a really scrappy way.
• 18:26
  But I expect, and we're talking about in twenty twenty-five, how to make that a core part of our marketing strategy because, you know, it's gonna get really easy to build and scale these sort of like faceless programs.
• 18:41
  But where I think we're gonna be able to differentiate ourselves is in those, like, really human intimate spaces. It's just one example. That's really cool. That's very interesting.
• 18:52
  I was just talking to someone the other day about the term organic, and we were just sort of saying like, uh, it wasn't that long ago that if you said like, "What's your organic strategy?" What you meant was
• 19:05
  how, how m- how much SEO content are you publishing basically, you know?
• 19:09
  And I-- we're sort of just opining on like this idea that organic, the idea of organic is changing quickly, I think in a great way, because it, organic just means, I mean, I guess it technically means like, how do you reach people without paying for the reach?
• 19:24
  But I feel like what it really means is how do you reach people because they actually want to be reached by you? [chuckles] You know what I mean?
• 19:32
  Like, that there's this idea that people want to be connected with the brand and probably with other people too, you know, that are customers or prospects or evangelists or whatever they are.
• 19:44
  You know, like that desire for that connection is much stronger. Maybe it's not much stronger. Maybe it's just more clear to us now because SEO is
• 19:52
  not quite what it used to be, that like we gotta think about some of this other stuff. So I think that's really fascinating.
• 19:59
  Yeah, I love that framing of organic, and I remember actually when I was like a young marketer just starting out, I was really confused about the definition of organic 'cause at my mind, I was thinking a lot more like what you just described.
• 20:11
  And I think maybe we're coming full circle now to that being a lot more how we think about the difference between paid and organic is organic is the community and affinity that we're building out across multiple different channels and spaces, and that those things taken together actually become a really big part of what's driving the business.
• 20:30
  Yeah, love that. Do you and your team work on ZapConnect at all? ZapConnect being like the big conference. Yeah.
• 20:37
  ZapConnect's our big user conference that's led by our events team, so Denise Hibbard, absolute genius when it comes to events, but it's, it is a full marketing team and honestly full company effort.
• 20:48
  So the content marketing team supports from all the copy, writing, video, both including like it's a digital event, so it's in the event platform, but also all of the on-site filming of the sessions, and so it is a year-long production.
• 21:04
  We just wrapped up, and we've already started talking about twenty twenty-five and twenty twenty-six. Nice. Okay. That's really cool. Yeah. There's... Ah, it's so interesting. I didn't go.
• 21:14
  I didn't, but I thought about it, and honestly, it was like the first event in a while that I was like, "Maybe I should go."
• 21:19
  Like, and part of it is this impetus that I was describing earlier where I'm like, this kinda like realization as I'm doing things that there's a better way, you know what I mean?
• 21:28
  And like trying to like immerse myself in an environment where like everybody thinks this way, you know, and how that- Yeah. -could be useful to me. So I should have gone. Well, and I did go, of course.
• 21:39
  The biggest event of the year, best event of the year, and
• 21:43
  I had been really involved in planning the content and getting ready for this event, and even I was kind of like gobsmacked at the quality of not just the content, but the energy.
• 21:54
  Like the energy, hearing people talk about Zapier and what they've been able to do and build with their business.
• 21:59
  As part of it this year, we did awards for customers, and hearing those sort of like, "Here's how my life went, my business was changed by Zapier," was so powerful.
• 22:09
  We had a great case study of a business that is kids can write into Santa, and using Zapier, they have a whole system set up with AI where Santa writes back and sends a mailed letter to these kids. That's so cool.
• 22:26
  So you, like you were saying at the top, there are so many use cases for Zapier, but it made me really like buy in again to the power of digital, like virtual events because I was also getting kind of burned out by them.
• 22:37
  I think the experience that Denise was able to create really spoke to that they still had value, and we've seen- Yeah. -results coming out of it, like exceeded all our goals, which is incredible.
• 22:47
  So I think that will continue to be a pillar part of our events strategy, and we're also thinking about like, what does it look like for community to evolve and these customer meetups to evolve and for us to bring together like Zapier advocates in person.
• 23:02
  So all of those things are gonna be really important to our strategy in twenty twenty-five. Dang. Okay. So cool. So cool. Okay.
• 23:11
  Sort of an existential question for you about content marketing, th- which is over the last eighteen months, twenty-four months, kinda whatever it's been, it's basically been, it's been about two years since ChatGPT launched, and I feel like that was the beginning of a lot of chaos in the content marketing world.
• 23:29
  For me personally, I have felt my confidence really shaken in content. You know, it's like this thing that I believed in, you know, that I always thought would be there, and then suddenly I was like, "Oh my gosh.
• 23:41
  Is content really gonna just get so blown up by AI?"
• 23:46
  So like, but listening to you talk, you, you're approaching this from a very reasonable perspective, which is like we're seeing some declines in SEO, so we're diversifying.
• 23:53
  You know, not like me over here being like, "Oh my God. What's gonna happen in the future?" You know what I mean?
• 23:58
  But I'm just curious, like has your confidence been shaken in content marketing, or is it as simple as like, "Well, if it doesn't work over here, we're gonna do it over here"? Yeah.
• 24:08
  It's, it's certainly not as unemotional as that.
• 24:11
  I tend to be a, like tech optimist, so when new technologies enter the scene, I usually do approach it with a, "Ooh, this is exciting," mentality.But of course, I'm also a realist.
• 24:22
  I can see the ways that it is going to significantly change our strategies from before, especially SEO. Like the engine that Zapier's marketing grew on is not going to work anymore.
• 24:34
  In fact, I would argue it's already on the decline. So that part, I would say, was a little shaky. But the thing that has gotten me excited again is the way that we have expanded it to these other channels.
• 24:48
  Our video program is like lighting me up and getting me excited in a way that I, I-- it, it's like one of the most fun programs that I've had a chance to churn around my head around in a while.
• 25:01
  So I think the thing that has given me confidence and reassurance at least, is the advent of AI and the way that has been introduced to content marketing shook us out of a very comfortable place, sort of repeating the same playbook that had worked for a really long time.
• 25:18
  And as a content marketer, and I think my team like tends to be this way too, it's fun to try new things and we've really adopted that approach of we're not gonna try to cling to things that worked once.
• 25:31
  We're going to be experimental and, you know, be speculative and take some risks.
• 25:36
  And that definitely required buy-in from our execs to say, "This is a program that is unproven for us, like we have confidence it will work, but if we don't start diversifying now, then we will get to a point where we're, we're too far, [chuckles] we're too far down the line to recover the losses."
• 25:53
  So yeah, I think the fact that a decreased reliance on SEO means for us that we are introducing all of these really fun and interesting new platforms to try and test, it's keeping spirits up. I love that. I'm inspired.
• 26:09
  I am personally inspired by that, truly. That this is an opportunity to like, "Hey, let's try something new.
• 26:14
  We've been doing this thing 'cause it works so well for so long, but like, hey, if it's not gonna work as well, like let's use it as an opportunity to do something new, flex some creative muscles, try something that we haven't, you know, really had the bandwidth to do."
• 26:26
  So I like that. I'm gonna buy, I'm gonna buy into that. Okay, great. Yeah. [chuckles] And you know, I lead a team of like tw- I think we have about twenty people now, and I want us to have fun, you know? Yeah.
• 26:38
  And I, I don't think it's always super fun to just be churning out the same old approach. And so I've seen the team energized by this too, and that is really cool. Yeah. Amazing. Okay, well, okay.
• 26:51
  I'm gonna ask you to commit now. Will you come back next year and give us another update?
• 26:56
  'Cause I, you know, like this is all gonna change again, you know, and I would love to just like keep tabs on how you and the Zapier team are thinking about it.
• 27:02
  Doesn't Billie Eilish do this with Vogue, where like each year she comes back and like recaps her previous year? We could set something like that up. I like that. I like that.
• 27:11
  And we'll just keep sending you Superpath swag to keep you bought into this. Okay. Amazing. Amazing. Lane, thank you so much. W- obviously people go to the Zapier, like see, you know, see this stuff for yourself.
• 27:21
  Like to me, that's one of the best parts of this podcast. Like you've heard about it, now go see it and see it in action like that. You can glean inspiration from that.
• 27:28
  But then Lane, for you personally, LinkedIn, is it the best place to send folks to connect with you? Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 27:35
  I've also recently started taking on a select handful of coaching and advising clients. Oh, cool. One of my most recent content marketing
• 27:43
  coaching, I guess, mentees, was dealing with this e-exact problem of, okay, SEO is, is one pillar, but I have to decrease how much I'm relying on that, so how do we expand into these other channels?
• 27:56
  And I had so much fun chatting through with her what that could look like for her company. So I'm enjoying doing that. If anybody's interested, they can reach out to me, LinkedIn or lanescottjones@gmail.com. Okay, cool.
• 28:07
  Links will be in the show notes for folks. Lane, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time and hope we can do it again. Thanks. This was great. Take care. [outro music]