Latest / The High Ground / Why Your Senior Hires Keep Failing (And How to Fix It) | ft. Daniel Moussa

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Why Your Senior Hires Keep Failing (And How to Fix It) | ft. Daniel Moussa · The High Ground

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My guest today is Dan Moussa, founder of Third
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Way Advisory, an executive search firm that works
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exclusively with founder -led businesses on their
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most important leadership hires. He spent two
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decades in leadership search across the Middle
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East, Asia, and Australia. Over 90 % of people
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watching the podcast right now aren't actually
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subscribed, and we release conversations like
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this every single week. So make sure you hit
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that subscribe button down below. All right,
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welcome to the podcast. Thanks very much for
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having me. How good to be here. Yeah, awesome.
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So I want to chat a bit about you. I want to
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chat about your business. So you work with only
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founder -led businesses. Now, what's the difference
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between a founder making a senior hire versus
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a big corporate doing the same thing? Yeah, that's
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a big question right there. It is. I think the
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best example I can give you, if we probably jump
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to a CEO level, because that's probably the most
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relatable, right? Yeah. And everyone knows the
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job of a CEO. I think people might look at it
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as a chief executive officer, but there's a massive
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difference to a CEO who's going to come and work
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for a founder -led business versus a CEO who's
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going to work for like an ASX 100, 200 company.
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Yeah. Because the role is two very different
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things. You know, the CEO of the big company,
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you're paid a lot of money to hold the responsibility,
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but ultimately, what's your job? It's an element
1:25
of governance, but you're really managing a board
1:27
and making sure your board are happy. You're
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spending time with investors and making sure
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investors are happy. And you're the public figurehead
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of a business, ultimately. Yes, a buck stops
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a few, but that's generally the role. You're
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not sort of in the weeds of the business, running
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the business day to day. You've got a CEO or
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CFO doing that. If you're a CFO for a founder,
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you're generally running the business. You know,
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the founders originally... They're the leader,
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they've got the vision, but you're the one who's
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actually running the business. You're taking
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the business from, be it 10 mil to 50 mil or
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50 mil to 100 mil. It's a lot more firefighting.
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It's a lot more professionalizing in an organization.
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You're much more hands -on in the day -to -day
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running of the business. And that kind of works
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its way back down through every sort of role.
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It's just a different kettle of fish working
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for a family -led business. Yeah. Now, for those
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listeners that are watching that don't know who
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you are, can you give your, like, two -minute
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pitch? Yeah, of course. So, Dan Moussa, I'm the
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founder of Third Way Advisory. So, Third Way
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Advisory, we're executive search across Australia
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and to Asia, but we only work with founder -led
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businesses. So, all our clients are founder -led,
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privately -owned businesses where we can sit
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directly beside a founder and we, yeah, look
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after senior hires and mission -critical hires.
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that are really important for the success of
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a business. So when a founder gets a mission
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-critical hire wrong, what's the kind of outlay
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with that? How does that negatively affect their
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business? If you can put specific figures on
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it, that would be cool. Well, the stats around
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it say that the cost of a wrong hire financially
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tends to be three to five times the annual salary.
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So think of like, obviously you've got wage cost,
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you've probably got recruitment cost, then you've
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got... productivity cost you've got cost of seat
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cost yeah etc so people just think it's six months
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of salary it's not it's a significant number
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so if you think they sell three to five times
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salary it's generally the financial cost of a
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wrong hire that's a lot that's not to mention
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the emotional cost and there's other cost that
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comes with it yeah yeah so is there anything
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that like founders don't necessarily see when
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they're doing that hiring process Yeah. Oh, I
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shouldn't put it on silent. Sorry. Yeah, the
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problem, I think the mistakes are made because
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the process isn't in place. And I think if you
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speak to any founder, every founder's got a hiring
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story going wrong, and often multiple times.
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And you hear this expression of, well, I just
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can't find good talent. There's not people I
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want. I'm just going to do it myself. And the
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reality is when you work backwards, you say,
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well, if you tried to hire this person two to
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three times and... and it hasn't worked, it can't
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always be the candidate, can it? Was the role
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ever set up for success? And I think that's a
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challenge. Founders rush to market or rush to
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hire to hire someone, but the role itself has
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never been set up for success. And that's a step
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that everyone skips, which is probably the most
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important step. So how do you actually set up
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that role for success? What are the processes
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that you need to put in place? Yeah, so good
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question. My process personally is really highly
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aligned to high performance sport. So if you
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watch any individual sports person or team sport
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win a championship, anywhere in the world, you'll
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be in a press conference post -match and you're
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going to hear from the head coach or captain,
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we're going to hear like, well, we had an incredible
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pre -season. We worked really hard behind the
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scenes and we laid the foundation for the success
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of a campaign ahead. Then you're going to hear,
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well, we also had really good alignment. across
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the organization of a team from the nutritionist
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to the physio to the people in the admin office
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to the groundskeepers we all had this single
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end goal and we're all aligned to that and then
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the third one you're always going to hear is
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well we left we left no stone unturned in the
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preparation which on the basis of it's really
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simple right like that's and you do hear that
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all the time well why don't you just take that
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into your hiring process yeah and then you'll
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get a result so the big thing for me is doing
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that pre -season piece so let's break that down
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alignment right if who's involved in the hire
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because there'll definitely be a founder there
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may be a co -founder if it may be another senior
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member of staff or even a mentor if you don't
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have alignment exact alignment and what you're
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looking for then you're running multiple searches
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within one and often people say yeah we're aligned
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like we've agreed in the salary we've signed
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off on a job description but if i take those
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individuals away individuals listen forget all
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this just explain to me your expectations of
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this person when they come into your business.
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The answer will invariably be different. It might
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be 5 % different, 10 % different, 15 % different,
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but it's always going to be different. So that's
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a chance here to come in and navigate that alignment
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and get it right. Well, listen, guys, we're misaligned
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here, so we have to agree on what is our absolute
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north star, like what's a must -have, where we're
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not compromising. That's the first piece. The
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second piece in that preparation stage then becomes...
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going deeper on the type of person you're looking
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for. And we come in and do a lot of work. We
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measure culture and work personality, and I think
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that's a step that everyone overlooks. So we'll
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come in, we work with our great partners here
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in Brisbane, Kumpuno. We measure your current
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culture organisation, the desired culture organisation,
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and all the workplace personalities of your key
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staff, your leadership team, or even your whole
6:58
business. Then it enables us to hire. to measure
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the candidates in the same way in the back end
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so we can match personalities, we can match culture.
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So we're going deeper. And then the third piece
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is that sort of when you leave no stone unturned
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is, well, how do we go to market? And how do
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you tell your story of your business? How do
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you engage candidates? And that's where so many
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people get it wrong is, well, we can't find people.
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I'm like, no, because no one knows who you are.
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You haven't told your story. No one knows you
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exist. You're not giving people a reason to come
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and work for you. You're not telling them what
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the strategy is. We do a lot of content around
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video and how we frame the role and we take that
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to market for our clients. Yeah, yeah. So it's
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a bit too... Very in -depth, yeah. Yeah. Which
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is really good. It's such an important decision
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and there's too many people out there who don't
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go to that level of depth and just want to chase
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a fee and it can tear a business down bringing
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the wrong person in. Have you seen where a business
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has... gone to go hire somebody and they might
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have CVs and resumes sent in that aren't to the
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that are fake I guess Yeah you do yeah so it's
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unfortunately there's large swathes of our industry
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who don't work that ethically right and so the
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fake CV thing does happen less so but it's certainly
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In some recruitment agencies, you'll get taught
8:22
as a business development tactic is just to send
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some CVs in because then you get the client on
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the phone or they're not available, but now you've
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got the role and you can get a brief. That certainly
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happens. I think where people get frustrated
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with the industry and why business owners get
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frustrated is when they start getting just thrown
8:38
CVs because they don't understand why that's
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happening. And the truth of it is, generally
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you've got a recruitment consultant who's got
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a manager above them and who's running KPIs.
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One of those KPIs is to go out and have a certain
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number of new jobs on your desk every month,
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be it five jobs, 10 jobs, whatever the KPI is.
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The challenge then becomes the same managers
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keeping you against your fill rate and you want
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to earn commission. So they're like, well, you've
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got 10 jobs on your desk. You can't fill all
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10. So what's the easiest? Who's going to pay
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us the quickest? And that's your priority. So
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as a client, you're sort of sat there thinking
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you're getting this great service, but you're
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not. Your role is going to go down this ladder
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of importance of the consultant. And if they
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don't feel you're getting enough love, they'll
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just chuck some CVs at you in the hope that eventually
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something sticks, which is pretty shit for everyone,
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really. Yeah. So it's pretty much like if you
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correlate that to marketing, it's just like flooding
9:31
a client with leads, even if they're not highly
9:35
qualified. It's a volume game for people, right?
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If you throw enough CVs at them, one will stick,
9:39
they'll make some money, and it's on to the next
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one. And what are the negative parts about that
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as a business owner? Yeah. I mean, the negative
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part was two parts. The negative part for everyone
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is it kind of gives the industry a pretty tough
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name, which is probably fair enough for community
9:55
practice. I think the tough part as a business
9:58
owner is you're basically getting unsolicited
10:00
CVs. And it's not right. Like, if you then see
10:03
a candidate that you like and you want to go
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and engage, then you're stuck because you've
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got to pay for a fee for it, probably, by terms
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of business. It can actually be really dangerous,
10:14
too, for the business owner because... If you
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suddenly got recruitment consultants who are
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out spreading your name in the market and trying
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to get people to your job, well, what are they
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saying about your business? Yeah. How are they
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portraying it? How are they portraying you? Is
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it correct? If you've got multiple recruitment
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consultants trying to tell the same story in
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different ways, you're just creating a mess in
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the market and you have no control of the narrative
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of what's being sort of spoken about and how
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your business is being pitched to candidates,
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which is technically a disaster as well. Yeah.
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Do you see that a lot of business owners try
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and fill a gap for now as opposed to like a year,
10:52
five years? Well, yeah. And that's a big one,
10:55
right? Hiring is so often really reactive because
10:58
we've won a major project or we've seen a business
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opportunity or, you know, someone's resigned.
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It's react, react, react. And I understand you
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have to kind of react and you do have to fill
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that seat. But when you're doing that, and I
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always say to people like, let's think about
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where's the business going to be in three years
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particularly when you're coming to hire senior
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hires right yeah there's no point hiring for
11:19
today because the business you have today hopefully
11:21
isn't going to be in six months three years so
11:25
let's understand where you need to be in three
11:28
years let's understand how you're going to get
11:30
there and let's understand the skill sets and
11:33
the person needing the business to get you on
11:35
that journey and then suddenly you start to make
11:36
a much better hire decision with a much better
11:39
outcome and one of the greatest challenges business
11:43
owners have is sometimes when it comes to their
11:46
people is an acceptance of you know the team
11:49
that got you maybe to your first 10 million of
11:50
revenue aren't going to be the team you're going
11:52
to get to the 30 million dollar revenue and that's
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tough because they came in they're loyal they've
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worked really hard they're good people but unfortunately
12:01
some of them have capped out in terms of their
12:03
ability to be able to recognize well we can still
12:06
keep this team and we can do great things, but
12:08
we're going to have to inject some more skill
12:10
set and some more experience to really help us
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push on. It's quite a hard transition for some.
12:14
Yeah. It's also in line, I guess, with the marketing
12:17
side of stuff because we see the same thing.
12:19
You know, the marketing that got you to 1 million,
12:21
got you to 3 million, isn't going to get you
12:23
to 5, 10, 15, you know? It's more sophisticated,
12:26
more complex. It's more challenge, right? Yeah.
12:28
So a lot of founders end up becoming the bottleneck
12:32
in their businesses. So what does a founder need
12:35
to do to... Step away from that and let go. Yeah,
12:40
well, one, it's an incredibly hard thing to do,
12:43
right? Very, yeah. Because I was listening to
12:46
a great podcast with Cody Sanchez every day and
12:48
she talks about... She's great. I love watching
12:50
her videos. She talks about being a hero is taking
12:53
heroin, right? And most founders have to have
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a degree of ego, right, to be a founder. You
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don't just become a founder because it takes
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guts and balls and you've got to back yourself
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and you've got to be able to suffer. So you have
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to have an element of ego to do it. But if you're
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just running a business that's fully reliant
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and you have to touch everything and your hands
13:13
are in everything and you're the one who's bringing
13:15
the revenue in, you're not really running a business,
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right? You're kind of self -employed with a team.
13:20
Yeah. And that's what so many founders do, right,
13:23
is they can't let go. The most successful founders
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you speak to are like, well, how did the business
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turn? It's like when I stepped out and I realized
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I had to bring in a CEO and I realized I'd capped
13:33
out my ability or I had expertise. Yep. When
13:35
they start to let go, and bring the right people
13:37
in, you see their businesses, you see the difference,
13:39
they start taking off and going. Because it's
13:43
a really important do, but it's also incredibly
13:45
hard because you're pretty much sort of giving
13:48
up your child or your life's work and trusting
13:51
it to someone else. It's a massive step to take,
13:53
but often the most important. Yeah. Do you notice
13:56
it's quite emotional for founders hiring? Yeah,
14:00
yes. And unfortunately, too many people hire
14:05
on emotion. And I mean by that is we're like,
14:08
well, this person's come recommended and I've
14:11
met them twice and we really connected over lunch
14:13
and they're a great person and see a lot of myself.
14:15
And then when I was 15, 20 and it's an emotional
14:19
hire, right? We're hiring on emotional because
14:21
they've made a bond to someone. Or whatever emotional
14:24
hiring is, they're just so desperate to get a
14:27
position filled. They're just so over it or so
14:29
over this problem in the business. They want
14:31
to move on to be just hired to fill the hole.
14:33
Yeah. Like either option kind of aren't great.
14:35
Yeah. You have to hire and cut to a degree. Yeah.
14:38
But you'd have some data and some assessment
14:40
and some understanding behind it. So how do you
14:43
know when it's time to hire somebody? And how
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do you actually hire, you know, the right person?
14:48
It's a good question. You can certainly hire
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too early. You can certainly hire too late. Yeah.
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I think you need to hire before you have a challenge.
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When you can see a challenge coming, then get
15:01
on to it early. Don't run a challenge for 12
15:03
months and then bring someone to fix the problem,
15:06
right? And I think it's that element we're talking
15:08
again about with senior leadership stuff I do.
15:11
You know, when do you hire? When do you bring
15:13
a CEO in? Probably at that point when you are
15:16
touching everything and you're stalling the business.
15:19
And you can feel it. I've been there even in
15:21
my business now. My business is tiny, right?
15:23
But I've bought an EA and I've bought a marketing
15:25
person. I have someone helping my podcast because
15:27
I can't touch it all. And when I do touch it
15:30
all, I get nothing done. I get no sleep. My clients
15:33
suffer and everything suffers. Yeah, everything
15:35
takes a back turn. Yeah, so as soon as you're
15:37
starting to recognize that pattern and you think,
15:39
well, actually, I need to go and fix something
15:41
else in the business. I need to pull myself out
15:42
of the weeds so I can work on the business. That's
15:45
when you bring someone in to lead it and take
15:47
it to the next level. Yeah. So usually the best
15:53
senior hires aren't in market looking actively.
15:57
Yeah. So how do you get that? Yeah. Well, that's,
16:00
I mean, you know, the traditional name of my
16:03
role is a headhunter, right? Yeah. Sounds pretty
16:05
grotesque, but we have to go and get them. And
16:11
that's sometimes a challenge. I think a lot of
16:13
founders just think, well, I'll post a job ad
16:15
up on LinkedIn and I'll post someone on Seek.
16:18
Don't get me wrong, you might get some exceptional
16:20
applicants. You know, that's rare, but you may
16:23
do. The problem for me is when you do that, you're
16:26
only really seeing what's available in that market
16:28
in any, you know, if it's a C -card, a 21 -day
16:31
period, right, and everybody's willing to apply.
16:32
You're not really seeing what's truly in the
16:35
market and what's truly available. So when it
16:38
becomes about, once you've got that absolute
16:41
clarity, and the problem when, sorry, when you
16:43
put a job post up to is, People generally aren't
16:46
sure what we're looking for. We've gone on AI,
16:47
we've put together a job description and we want
16:49
a CFO. We'll see what comes in. Yeah. Mistake
16:54
number one. Do you feel like, sorry to dig in,
16:57
do you feel like that's a more lengthier process?
17:00
Like if you were to just chuck something up and
17:01
say, oh, we'll wait and see who applies. It's
17:04
probably a quicker process. True. Because you
17:08
might get some applications in the door in the
17:10
first two weeks. You might interview a few people
17:11
and you could probably hire in eight weeks, right?
17:14
Yeah. So it's quicker. It's not as robust. It's
17:18
not as thorough. And I don't think you're going
17:20
to land the right person, right? Yeah, yeah.
17:24
Our process would be longer, but we're going
17:26
deeper. We're more thorough. We're scoping the
17:29
market. We're targeting who we're going for.
17:31
And that's an important piece there because once
17:33
you have that absolute clarity around... what
17:36
you're looking for, the person, the skill set,
17:38
the experience they must have. And let's use
17:42
an example, right? I've just done a hire for
17:44
a business who are an online training school
17:48
for like a spinal healing modality, right? Going
17:50
from $10 million to $30 million. So we said,
17:52
well, we need someone who's worked for a founder
17:54
before. We need someone who's scaled a business
17:56
from like sort of 10 mil to 50 mil. We need someone
17:59
who's worked in online training or online application.
18:01
And we need someone who's got a passion for the
18:02
health. for the health and wellness space, right?
18:05
So really clear what we need in terms of the
18:07
person. Once you've got that, it's not hard to
18:11
go and map out, right, cool, where's this person
18:12
going to be? If it's probably one of maybe 15
18:14
organisations in Australia, you have those people
18:16
in them, then you go into that and you can get
18:18
the org chat and you work out, boom, boom, who's
18:20
that person? So it becomes very targeted. It's
18:22
not a scattergun approach. It's, right, we've
18:25
probably got a list of 10 to 15 candidates here.
18:27
Now we're going to go after them. But to answer
18:30
your question, it's, well, how do you engage
18:31
them? And this is where marketing comes in massively.
18:34
You should have marketing involved in your hiring
18:36
process. Because why do people move jobs? People
18:41
follow people. And people nowadays look for personal
18:44
value alignment with your organization and public
18:46
personal alignment with your boss. And I actually
18:49
ran a survey on LinkedIn last week. And founders
18:51
don't realize this. I said... Who would you ever
18:53
work for, you know, a founder -led organization
18:55
or a large corporate? And I think it was sort
18:57
of 70 % favor in terms of founder -led organization.
18:59
So as business founders, people want to work
19:01
for us. That's really cool. We're just really
19:03
shit at selling it. So, for example, what we
19:07
do is, you know, we put together a full briefing
19:10
pack. I record a video on top of my client's
19:12
website so we can, you know, with no cloak and
19:14
dagger, this is who we're working for. This is
19:16
a client. This is why we exist. This is opportunity.
19:19
Probably the most important thing I do is I sit
19:21
down with the founder of the business and we
19:22
record a five to six minute video talking about,
19:25
well, why did he found a business? Why did he
19:26
found a business? What's successful today? What's
19:29
the next five years? Why does this job exist?
19:32
What's the opportunity for the person? That's
19:34
got to come from the founder's mouth, not mine.
19:37
Even if you don't want to use a recruitment consultant,
19:40
pick up your phone and record a video. You've
19:42
got to make this human. You've got to make this
19:43
process human. You've got to humanize yourself
19:45
and give people a reason to come and work for
19:47
you. And you know what? This is a great example
19:49
of setting the business foundations as well,
19:51
your vision, mission, core values, because your
19:53
whole team needs to be aligned on where you see
19:57
the business going and the people that you're
19:59
hiring and the clients that you have coming into
20:02
your business. Everybody needs to be aligned,
20:04
and it really sets that. foundation from day
20:07
dot yeah of what you expect yeah i'd add to that
20:10
too when it comes to this stuff is total transparency
20:13
yeah right if your business is having troubles
20:15
like what we are challenging this area own it
20:18
be transparent about it right because it's not
20:21
all cupcakes and rainbows and that's going to
20:23
do two things one it's going to stop a situation
20:26
where someone comes in and says well you sold
20:28
me this dream when i've come into this business
20:29
and it's totally different But by exposing the
20:32
truth and being transparent, you're going to
20:34
get the right person in to fix the problems.
20:36
Because that's why you're hiring, right? Like,
20:38
listen, when you come in the first year, it's
20:39
going to be really difficult because we've got
20:41
X, Y, and Z issues in the team here. And they'll
20:43
be like, oh, I had that last organization. This
20:45
is how we solved it. Perfect. So by being transparent,
20:48
you're assessing deeper and you're going to get
20:50
a better result as well. Yeah. So beyond like
20:52
the CV when you're headhunting people, how does
20:55
the headhunting work? Do you reach out to them
20:58
directly on LinkedIn or is it more from the marketing
21:00
side or a conjunction of both? It's a real conjunction
21:04
of both. We live in this funny time of the minute
21:07
where people don't really reply to email anymore
21:10
because there's a lot of automated email campaigns.
21:14
So we do no automation email campaign. No one
21:17
answers their phone anymore to a... To be honest,
21:21
if a number is saved, they still don't answer
21:22
the phone unless, if a number is not saved, you've
21:25
got like, I reckon a one in 10 chance, right?
21:27
Especially for somebody that's in a high level,
21:29
like they don't have time to be answering calls
21:32
for that. Yeah. So, you know, we think outside
21:34
the box, we record video messages, which gets
21:36
sent via text message, via LinkedIn message,
21:39
you know, email, personal email address. And
21:42
by having a voice or a human, it makes it look,
21:45
it's not AI generated, it's real. Yes. I think
21:47
that's one of the most important parts. Yeah.
21:49
Because we live in an AI world right now. Yeah.
21:52
Yeah, big time. And people don't know what's
21:54
real or what's wrong anymore, what's spam or
21:56
not spam. Yeah. So we do have an element of those
21:59
things, WhatsApp, voice notes, we use as well.
22:02
But really, it's obviously our own existing network,
22:05
right? I'm lucky. I've worked in a lot of places,
22:08
a lot of people, but generally I'm sort of a
22:10
degree away from someone or two degrees. So we
22:12
have to work the network. Look, we want to have
22:14
a chat to this person. Can you get us their phone
22:15
number? And we work it that way. So again, that's
22:18
coming down to some gravitas and some leverage.
22:20
And if they're willing to take a call, oh, well,
22:22
you're a mate of so -and -so's or X, Y, and Z,
22:25
should I have a chat to you? That's the best
22:27
way to do it and the way that works the most.
22:29
And how do you make the job position compelling
22:31
enough for somebody to leave their current? you
22:35
know job yeah move over well it's important right
22:38
because you don't want to make it compelling
22:39
and and and not an overseller right so i'm just
22:44
really really honest about what the challenge
22:46
awaits but you get to know candidates and you
22:49
also understand where candidates are in their
22:52
career right so you know if we're hunting for
22:55
a ceo When we can go and get a CEO who's probably
22:58
ready to step up into their biggest CEO role,
23:00
if that makes sense, and there's a motivation
23:01
there. Or we're going to go and find someone
23:03
who's been in the CEO seat for a number of years
23:05
or a CFO seat who we know wants to step up. So
23:07
we have to have a motivating factor there. You're
23:11
also aware of the simple signals. If people have
23:15
gone and worked for a founder -led business for
23:17
10 years and suddenly they've had private equity
23:20
come into them or they've sold to a larger organization.
23:22
Generally that changes the business overnight.
23:24
And a lot of those genuine people are like, wow,
23:26
nah, this isn't what I signed up for. Or I've
23:30
had a bit of a payday, et cetera. Like I'm ready
23:32
for the next challenge. Yeah. So you're looking
23:34
for people that will sort of intricacies in their,
23:36
in their career, right? Yeah. Being a four or
23:38
five year journey. They're ready for the next.
23:41
Because these people tend to be builders. Yeah.
23:42
I built this now. It's really steady state, which
23:45
is really good, but I'm bored. Yeah. So yeah,
23:48
these are a lot of things we're looking at. Yeah.
23:50
Yeah. So, You say the work starts with the business
23:56
first, not just like the job description. So
24:00
what should a founder be clear on before they
24:04
even start looking? Well, number one is what's
24:07
your business strategy? What is the plan for
24:10
the next three years? What's the vision? And
24:12
that's a huge thing also for marketing side of
24:14
stuff as well. That's for everyone. For the whole
24:16
business. A lot of businesses, unfortunately,
24:18
sadly can't answer that. They've got an idea,
24:22
but they can't get it down on paper. I think
24:25
the problem is with founder -led businesses is
24:27
people start businesses because they love what
24:29
they do. And then, you know, next minute they're
24:32
making money, and then it's like, oh, crap. You
24:35
know, I'm in a position where I'm doing everything.
24:38
Now I need to sort out processes, systems, and
24:41
make life easy for me so that, you know, you
24:43
can go into that next position where you're hiring
24:46
under you. Yeah, 100%. So I think having that
24:48
clear strategy is number one You have to work
24:51
back from that. What's the goal? And also by
24:54
going through that process, things come up like,
24:57
well, actually, you don't need to hire someone.
24:59
Or maybe you don't have to hire for another 12
25:00
months. We're not quite there yet. Or actually,
25:03
well, look at your current organisation structure.
25:06
This person might be able to step up. So by doing
25:08
that first sort of three -year plan, you could
25:10
answer it. You could probably solve your problem
25:11
straight away. And many times you don't even
25:14
have to go to market. You don't have to hire
25:15
because it's something with sort of the low -hanging
25:17
fruits right in front of your face. So that's
25:20
number one. is understanding the strategy. Number
25:23
two is being absolutely 100 crystal clear on
25:26
if you bring someone to this business in a certain
25:28
role, what does success look like after six months,
25:31
12 months, 18 months? Yes. If you can't communicate
25:33
and be clear what success looks like, you're
25:36
setting this candidate up to fail. Yeah. Right?
25:38
And it'll fall down pretty quickly. To me, they're
25:42
the two most important things at the starting
25:44
point before you even go and look at market.
25:46
Yeah. Get both things down. Yeah. So how do you
25:50
hire for a business if they're looking in that,
25:52
like if they don't need to hire right now, it
25:54
might be a year or two years. What do you do
25:57
from that point so that they can hire somebody?
26:01
Yeah, well, hiring and particularly hiring senior
26:04
people takes a lot longer than people think.
26:06
And people generally come to me or to other people
26:09
to help them when it's like we're in a rush.
26:12
And I'm like, well, it's going to take six months
26:15
to hire someone. They're like, what do you mean?
26:16
I'm like, well. The CEO's probably going to have
26:18
a three -month notice period. So if it's three
26:20
months burnt immediately, if we can do it in
26:22
12 weeks, that'll be a quick process for hire.
26:25
Because, you know, you think we've got to do
26:27
our little pre -season bit, that's a couple of
26:29
weeks. We're going to have to allow like four
26:31
to six weeks of searching and searching, searching
26:34
and searching, searching. And look, now AI is
26:39
great. It's really quick, right? You can map
26:40
a market really quick. But then the challenge
26:42
is like you've got to get a hold of people, which
26:44
takes a bit of time. When you're bidding with
26:47
senior people, their diaries are full for a week.
26:50
So I'm like, I need to have a coffee for you.
26:51
And they're like, well, cool, I can't get you
26:53
in for two weeks. I'll meet you in 2028. But
26:56
you've got a fact about in, right? So you're
26:57
like, well, can we find a hole here? So there's
26:59
that element. So time starts to pile up, right?
27:01
Then you get your shortlist, and then you're
27:03
trying to get your founder and their selection
27:05
team to line diaries. Well, I'm now in Singapore
27:09
for two weeks. I want to meet this person face
27:10
-to -face. Cool. So it's all time, time, time,
27:12
time. Yeah. When someone says to me, oh, we don't
27:16
need to hire for a year, I'm like, cool, I'll
27:17
see you in three months and we'll get started.
27:19
Yeah. Because it's not actually, a year disappears
27:21
super quickly. Yeah. But in the meantime, what
27:26
the great leaders do is always keep in touch
27:29
with the talent in the market. So, you know,
27:32
you go to industry events, you know who the up
27:33
-and -comers are, you know who the good people
27:35
in the business are, engage, like keep in contact,
27:37
have a coffee quarterly because people are interested
27:40
in you and your business too. Yeah. So just catch
27:43
up, build a rapport, understand where they are.
27:45
You get to know someone. And lo and behold, in
27:47
24 months, when you're having that coffee, oh,
27:49
look, we've got an opportunity in the business.
27:50
And they'll be like, yeah, I'm in. Because you've
27:53
built that relationship already. They know about
27:54
you. They know about your business. You know
27:56
about them. And by doing that really well, consistently
27:59
with a top talent, your hiring is already done.
28:01
And some of the best CEOs and the best leaders
28:03
in the world are amazing at that. They'll talk
28:05
about... carving out time every week or every
28:07
month or every quarter to engage with the best
28:10
talent in the market just to keep relationships
28:11
open and conversations going yeah so what does
28:14
the first couple months look like once they've
28:16
hired somebody do you work with them on the after
28:19
yeah so i do so there's two things we do one
28:22
is you know one great example at the minute is
28:25
we've been the ceos just started um two weeks
28:28
ago for one of our clients and they've actually
28:30
got a coach working with them for six months
28:32
because to navigate that transition of being
28:34
a founder and handing the reins over to CEOs
28:36
is pretty difficult it's a really big step so
28:39
rather than just letting that not work after
28:42
such a big investment we've got a coach and he's
28:44
working with them together so he's a transition
28:46
coach for six months which is really really powerful
28:48
not needed for every business but I think for
28:51
a lot and it shouldn't be overlooked I like to
28:54
go back in personally after eight weeks and just
28:56
say, hey, look, with a client and a candidate,
28:59
say, listen, we sold you this dream, we sold
29:01
you this job. Is it as we sold it to you? And
29:05
there's a reason for that. Hopefully you'll be
29:06
like, yep, it is. You guys nailed it. Then we
29:09
know we've got a really good process for the
29:10
next one. Yeah. But if it's not, I'm like, yeah,
29:12
it is, but we did talk about this and I haven't
29:14
seen this happen or that happen. And sometimes
29:16
that's just been messed or stepped or hasn't
29:19
happened yet. And the founding staff are cool,
29:21
like, yeah, you're right, we did say that, let
29:22
us get that sorted. And so what is a really small
29:24
thing gets nipped in the bud and sorted straight
29:26
away. If that doesn't happen and gets left to
29:29
probation, then it becomes a big thing. And then
29:31
that's when it all falls down. And I think there's
29:34
something really important in that, like we've
29:36
all been to a new job, a new business. Your first
29:39
week's amazing. You get love and attention and
29:41
a care package and all the inductions. You maybe
29:44
get a check in at two weeks and you don't hear
29:47
from anyone until six months when you have your
29:48
probation review. Yeah. Like, that's a disaster.
29:52
It needs to be feedback points all the way throughout.
29:54
So what's the timeline usually for those feedback
29:58
points, do you say? Well, I think you should
30:00
be having them monthly. Yeah. And again, that
30:04
comes from, I compare so much to like, why are
30:07
athletes so good at receiving feedback? Because
30:10
they receive it four or five times a day, right?
30:12
You get feedback on what you had for your meal.
30:14
You get feedback on your gym session. You get
30:16
feedback on your field session. You're constantly
30:18
getting feedback. Most humans outside of sport
30:21
are dreadful at receiving feedback. They don't
30:23
like it. They think it's critical. They don't
30:25
know how to ask for it. They don't know what
30:27
to do with it, right? You come to an organization
30:30
and you speak to them like, oh, yeah, we're amazing
30:32
at feedback. Oh, that's cool. What do you do?
30:35
Well, we do quarterly reviews. Okay. So you map
30:39
them out. You do 12 months. You do like one,
30:41
two, three, four. There's a massive gap in between
30:45
each of those reviews, right, which is too long.
30:47
So feedback cycles have to be, you know. systematically
30:52
i think at least monthly but what you want to
30:54
do is actually create a feedback culture within
30:56
your business where everyone's getting feedback
30:58
from everyone constantly every day like if you
31:00
can create a feedback culture you're winning
31:01
i'd agree helps you advance your business way
31:05
quicker massively yeah but it's a learning curve
31:07
right you have to yeah people have to learn how
31:09
to give feedback and people have to learn how
31:11
to take feedback yeah an overnight process no
31:13
it's definitely a long process yeah so if there's
31:16
a founder out there that might be listening and
31:18
they can't afford a full -time you know executive
31:22
right now what are the kind of steps that they
31:25
can put in place now to get there yeah um good
31:29
question well there's a lot of people who are
31:31
working at interim like interim level now it
31:34
was a lot of brilliant you know we're seeing
31:35
a huge surge in the interim sort of cfo market
31:38
and cio market so if you need an interim you
31:41
can look at bringing an interim sort of one one
31:43
one day a week to two days a week i think the
31:48
It's interesting that can't afford to hire someone
31:51
is a challenge. It's a challenging one because
31:54
then the argument is, well, is the money generally
31:57
not there or are you sort of bottlenecking it?
32:01
What's the cost of not having that person in
32:03
the business? Everyone's quick to talk about
32:06
the cost of what if it doesn't go well, but what
32:08
if it does go well? What are you unlocking? But
32:13
yeah, I mean, look at interims. Look at contractors.
32:16
Can you bring in, you know, one thing you can
32:18
do, and I've done it with a couple of clients,
32:20
is we know we want to get like a Queensland general
32:22
manager for a business. They probably don't need
32:25
them right now. They probably don't have the
32:26
budget right now. But we've come and gotten the
32:29
level below. And they've come in as a level below.
32:32
But that candidate has come in knowing there's
32:34
a two -year plan in place for them to become
32:36
that Queensland state manager. Yeah. Right. So
32:38
it's a great role for someone. It's a great opportunity
32:41
for the business and it's kind of built into
32:42
that. So that's definitely an option too if you're
32:44
not quite ready to go full as heck yet. Yeah.
32:47
Yeah. And they do, you've got fractional CMOs,
32:50
fractional CFOs, CEOs, all that, which can be
32:54
a bit easier on the bank, but you still get that.
32:59
Yeah. It can and it can't be. Some of the day
33:01
rates are pretty significant for some of these
33:03
people, right? And you're paying for expertise.
33:07
But look, if you're not ready to hire financially,
33:09
I would say don't hire because you're again setting
33:13
that person up to fail because you're going to
33:15
put pressure on them to perform straight away
33:17
because you're thinking, I need money, this person's
33:18
got to work, this person's got to work, this
33:20
person's got to work. Which isn't a good experience.
33:22
You're going to manage them poorly, you're going
33:24
to manage them differently. If there's going
33:25
to be pressure, it's going to break down pretty
33:26
quickly. Yeah, I mean, look at your cash flow
33:30
before any decision, right? Yeah. Including hiring.
33:33
So if the founders, like in that moment, if they're
33:36
the bottleneck, how do they get out of being
33:40
that bottleneck to get? Because I think that's
33:44
the hardest part for any founders. They're the
33:46
bottleneck. They're doing everything and it's
33:49
almost as if they're scared to let go, but it's
33:53
also... I don't know, you know, everything's
33:55
in their head, I guess. Yeah, it's hard. I mean,
33:57
I went through something similar like my last
33:59
business, I co -founded it. I tried to control
34:00
everything, right, and probably to the detriment
34:02
of the business and the detriment of my co -founding
34:06
relationship, right? And one of the best bits
34:10
of advice I've seen given, and I did it myself,
34:11
is remove yourself from the business, right?
34:14
And, like, founders never take holidays, right?
34:16
Yeah. You can get the business running. and you
34:19
can go away for a month or three weeks and turn
34:21
your phone off and just trust your team and let
34:23
them go and you come back and everyone's worked
34:25
then there you are right like you're the bottleneck
34:28
like you don't necessarily you're not needed
34:30
like the thing will go on about you that's a
34:32
really good signal right yeah um that that's
34:35
number one i think often founders need help with
34:39
this and they get it from mentors and coaches
34:41
and people around them because they've been through
34:42
and they see it um You have to part with your
34:47
ego. That's probably the one thing I went through
34:50
to be like, yeah, you have to part with your
34:51
ego. Because it's your business. You're the founder.
34:54
You want it to rely on you. That's your identity.
34:57
That's who you are as a person. So you have to
34:59
be able to strip that away and leave the ego
35:02
at the door and be like, well, look, this business
35:04
can survive without me. And actually, it's incredible
35:07
that it can survive without me. That's the result
35:09
we all want and looking for. So lean into it.
35:12
Yeah. So I want to talk about you. Yeah. So how
35:15
did you get into doing this? How did you found
35:18
your business? Yeah. You said you had another
35:20
business before that. Well, long story short,
35:26
I mean, I graduated with a degree in sports science
35:28
back in 2006. And my dad said I had to get a
35:30
job. And I went for an interview at Hayes in
35:32
Edinburgh, Hayes Recruitment, and got a job as
35:35
a recruitment consultant. Like in the old days
35:38
of like, you know, 50 phone calls in the morning.
35:41
50 in the afternoon and it was like it was hard
35:43
and I left recruitment after a year and promised
35:45
I'd never go back to it yeah um you know I traveled
35:49
around the world a bit I ended up working in
35:50
procurement at Lange Road Construction and and
35:52
fell fell into sort of property and real estate
35:54
and uh end up in Hong Kong working in commercial
35:57
real estate one of my clients was a recruitment
35:59
consultant said you want to come back and do
36:01
our real estate recruitment I was like not really
36:03
So it kept on at me, kept on at me, and I went
36:05
back into recruitment and then quickly ended
36:07
up in Saudi Arabia working on the PIF megaproject.
36:10
So it's been a bit of a journey. You know, I
36:15
co -founded, I came back and I was working for
36:17
a company in Brisbane, Titan Recruitment, and
36:19
Kev, my mate, was a general manager and I was
36:23
probably the highest fear in the business at
36:24
the time. And I sort of said, hey, I'm going
36:26
to go out and start my own thing, I think. And
36:28
he said, oh, it's funny you said that because
36:30
I'm thinking the same. And we decided to jump
36:33
in and do that together. And we co -founded Telesca.
36:37
I sort of sold out after two and a half years.
36:39
Telesca's still going really well, I think, still
36:41
growing. And the guys are doing a great operation.
36:44
But through that journey, I just realized I'd
36:48
kind of fallen out of love with recruitment to
36:51
a degree. And it was just pretty soulless, just
36:53
filling jobs. like when you've done it enough
36:57
times it's like it's not that cool but every
36:59
now and then you'd face you'd create a job you'd
37:01
fill a job that had real good impact and that's
37:04
when I sort of said you know I just want to help
37:06
I want to work with founders I want to work with
37:08
businesses where the decision to get the right
37:10
person in has huge consequences because when
37:13
you're working for a massive conglomerate or
37:16
an MNC like it's numbers right yeah your company
37:20
of 30 ,000 people like they're all just numbers
37:23
really and yeah You're working with HR teams
37:26
and talent teams. And yes, you come across some
37:28
great professionals, but a lot of them are just
37:30
punching in, punching out. We don't really care.
37:32
We're running a process. And I'd been through
37:37
this co -founding journey and it had kind of
37:39
gone wrong, I guess. But I'd learned so much.
37:41
And it's funny because we were like recruitment
37:43
consultants, but we'd made old mistakes. We scaled
37:45
too quickly. We probably made some of the wrong
37:47
hires. We managed our people poorly. I'd been
37:49
through all this stuff and I recognized it. And
37:52
I just sort of said, I want to help founders.
37:55
get this right and every founder I met had this
37:57
horrific hiring story gone wrong and I was like
37:59
it doesn't have to be this way and that's when
38:00
we went back from the sport piece and so I founded
38:04
Third Way and the only sort of value aligned
38:06
to Third Way is its purpose beyond placement
38:08
and what that purely means is like again putting
38:12
someone to a job is cool but we don't celebrate
38:15
that we celebrate sort of 12 -18 months time
38:17
yeah when we sit with our founder and they're
38:19
like hey this person has come into our business
38:21
has been incredible opened a new market or we've
38:24
10x or we've solidified or we've something's
38:26
happened they've had a significant impact in
38:28
the business yeah then that's when we that's
38:30
worth celebrating and that's yeah making that
38:32
impact what drives a business for me now yeah
38:34
now you take on one client per search is that
38:37
correct yeah yeah in terms of we run two or three
38:41
searches at the same time but we wouldn't run
38:43
um you know we wouldn't probably run two two
38:46
cfo searches in the same sector At the same time,
38:49
yeah, we'd be cannibalizing. Yeah, yeah. So how
38:52
does that work? How do you make that work? In
38:56
terms of? And, like, it's quite a small pool.
39:02
Yeah, it's a dreadful business model. Yeah. Well,
39:05
I mean, it's good. We run multiple searches because,
39:07
obviously, every search is at a different stage,
39:10
right? Yeah, yeah. So, like, you can probably
39:12
only have two at the kickoff stage at any one
39:14
time, but then they sort of move through and
39:16
you can bring two in, right? Yeah. I think at
39:19
the minute we're probably running 46 searches.
39:22
One's at a pretty advanced stage, probably close
39:24
to offer. One behind it's probably at senior,
39:27
sort of second interview stage. We've got one
39:30
at the assessment cultural stage. We've got two
39:32
in the sourcing. So we manage our time really
39:34
well within that. Client delivery is the biggest
39:39
thing for me. It's just delivering an incredible
39:42
service and looking after our clients. It keeps
39:44
me awake at night. My problem is I probably care
39:47
too much about my clients, right? But then equally,
39:49
I've been told that's what makes us really good
39:51
at what we do. Yeah, yeah. It's a double -edged
39:54
sword. It is, yeah. Yeah. Now, you also run your
39:58
own podcast as well. Yeah. How do you go managing
40:01
business and podcast? Yeah, interesting. Well,
40:05
it's kind of two, they kind of go together a
40:08
bit. I mean, my work's all founder -led, right?
40:11
And my podcast is called The Founder's Fire.
40:15
which is really the untold stories of the really
40:18
hard stories of being a founder that people skip
40:20
over yeah um so we yeah we kind of go together
40:25
and people say more like what's the roi in the
40:27
podcast and is it blah blah i'm like the podcast
40:30
has really been a passion project because i've
40:32
got this passion for founders yeah and the two
40:35
have come together now in a way because we're
40:36
building this amazing network off the back of
40:38
it and we just hosted the first founders feed
40:40
lunch which was a private lunch for the first
40:42
sort of 15 guests and The coolest thing is within
40:45
that, people are doing things within that and
40:47
there's relationships happening within that.
40:49
So that's a really cool byproduct. So, look,
40:52
does the podcast help my business? Yeah, it does.
40:54
Is it the reason I do the podcast? No, it's not.
40:57
It's a nice bonus. It goes hand in hand. Yeah,
41:00
and people say to me, are you going to try and
41:03
monetize a podcast? I'm like... I don't know.
41:06
It's not an aim. I'm not doing it to monetize
41:08
it. I'm doing it because these stories have to
41:10
be told. I want these stories to be able to impact
41:13
other founders and they can learn and take solace
41:16
in them. And I want to build this really cool
41:18
founder network where we can all support each
41:20
other. Yeah. Amazing. So if there is a founder
41:24
watching today, what would be the one piece of
41:26
advice that you would give them? Yeah, that's
41:28
my question. Have you listened to my podcast?
41:33
What would I give them? To me, it's just do it.
41:37
And actually, I'm going to share some advice.
41:39
I'm going to take some advice from a conversation
41:41
I had this morning with Tim Divers on my podcast.
41:43
And we talked about having a plan A and a plan
41:46
B. And he's right. If you have a plan B, then
41:49
subconsciously, it's always going to be a plan
41:50
A. You've just got to do it. There's no right
41:53
time to start a business. It's going to be hard.
41:56
It's going to be grindy. But just do it. If you
41:59
want to do it, just jump off a cliff and do it,
42:02
like the business cliff. Just get out there and
42:03
make it happen. And don't have a plan B because
42:06
then you have to make it work. You'll find a
42:09
way to make it work. Plan B is you always go
42:11
back to 9 to 5, right? Yeah, it's not an option.
42:14
But, yeah, you don't want that. That's the whole
42:16
reason you end up founding a business. But if
42:19
you have that plan B. You're never really in
42:21
a plan A. You know you're like, it's like subconsciously
42:24
like, oh, it's not that, right? No plan B. Plan
42:26
A, you're all in and you go on and you find a
42:29
way to make it happen. Like it's not even like
42:32
four weeks ago, I was sitting looking at my castle
42:34
thinking like, oh my God, I could be done here
42:36
in six weeks or eight weeks, right? And it is
42:39
scary, but you find a way. You always find a
42:41
way. It is very scary being a founder and there's
42:45
a lot of give. And sometimes not a lot of take
42:49
and that's part of running a business. Yeah.
42:54
Unfortunately. Not unfortunately, but the rewards
42:57
of it, I mean, the chance to be able to work
42:59
for yourself and do your own thing and create
43:01
opportunity for other people is like incredible.
43:03
Yeah. It's unreal. Yeah. There's more people
43:05
that do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked your post
43:08
that you posted the other day that I commented
43:10
on. And it was really talking about, you know,
43:12
it's not all sunshine and rainbows. Because social
43:15
media is just a big reel of, you know, the best
43:17
moments. Yeah. And it's not always like that.
43:21
Yeah, that's one thing I'm really passionate
43:22
about. And that's probably why I started the
43:24
podcast. I think if you're going to use social
43:26
media, you've got to be honest on there. And
43:29
it's not like you're going to show the highlights.
43:31
You've got to show the lowlights. And the cool
43:34
thing is, like, when I posted that reel, you
43:36
know 100 % wasn't a pity reel and I sort of said
43:38
that I'm just trying to say what's really like
43:40
number of I had loads of messages that day from
43:43
family been like mate like we're in the same
43:44
state like it's really good you've been honest
43:46
thanks for sharing like this is giving us a lift
43:48
I'm glad I've seen this so by being honest and
43:51
a bit vulnerable it actually helps people in
43:52
the background as well yeah makes you relatable
43:54
yeah 100 % yeah amazing well thank you for your
43:58
time today and coming on the podcast if the followers
44:01
want to Follow you and follow your journey. Where's
44:04
the best place to find you? Yeah, we've got,
44:06
well, my Instagram is danmusafirdway on Instagram.
44:10
We've got all the podcasts on there. Or the Founders
44:12
Fire podcast is on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple.
44:15
And I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah, great. And I'll link
44:18
everything down below for you guys. So if you
44:20
enjoyed this podcast, make sure you subscribe
44:21
down below because we release conversations like
44:24
this every single week. Legend. Thanks so much.
44:26
Thank you very much. Thank you.