Latest / Sales Trajectory Podcast / Episode 1: Set Your Team Up to Win: The Power of Role Design with HR Tactics CEO, Jackie Strachan

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Episode 1: Set Your Team Up to Win: The Power of Role Design with HR Tactics CEO, Jackie Strachan · Sales Trajectory Podcast

• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sales Trajectory Podcast, where innovation meets execution in sales.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jason Howes, your host, a 35-year sales veteran and lifelong student of the game.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for leaders and sales professionals with a growth mindset.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: You'll hear real sales stories about new products, motivating teams to prospect, and boost productivity.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: We dive deep into sales process, cutting edge tech, and recruiting top sales performers.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get started.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm joined by Jackie Strawn, founder and director of HR Tactics, based in Brisbane and working with SMEs across Australia.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie helps businesses get HR right from the right people, getting them performing faster, keeping them engaged and when needed, managing exits legally and confidently.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: HR Tactics is all about practical, no-nonsense people solutions that work in the real world.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the podcast, Jackie.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Great to be here, Jason.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's always great to catch up with you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me personally, the space we operate in aligns really nicely with what you do within your business, and we've already referred each other to somebody in our networks as well.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening in your world right now, Jackie?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a bit about yourself and your background and where you're uh what you've been working on recently.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my background, HR, HR, HR, for a lot of years now.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Actually started out after my first degree in Five Star Hotels.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Wanted to travel the world and have a great time.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I really treated it as a career.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I was more of a career hospitality person working in beautiful hotels around the world.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: But got pretty disillusioned once I came back to Australia and was uh, you know, the standard of service here.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I'd learnt what good looks like, and it didn't impress me coming back to see what we've got to offer in hotels.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I went back to uni actually and studied an M MBA, which was amazing at that postgraduate level, focused on things like organizational behaviour, organizational consulting, HR obviously, but really around what made people tick, but related to in the workplace.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I found exactly what lit me up.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: What lit me up was management theories, but turning it into really practical practices for businesses that could help them manage their staff.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I had childhood memories of my parents who who did run very successful small businesses out in country Queensland, and they just seemed to always be tearing their hair out about staffing issues, and that I believe was the catalyst that to me getting into how can we translate the latest research and thinking and data on what improves the employee performance, what improves their conduct, what improves the employer's ability to find the right staff, get them performing quickly, making them want to stay, and exiting them legally and kindly when things don't go right.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, it's really about turning that latest research and learning to cross management, you know, neuroleadership into those practical HR practices for SMEs.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So these employers weren't tearing their hair out like like my parents often were.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I guess bringing us to present day uh about 20 years working in all sorts of operational and strategic HR management roles across public sector, private sector, small business, large business.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: I decided to take the leap in 2016, start my own HR consultancy.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I literally came up with a name, registered it, and thought, let's do this.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And here we are today with um HR tactics.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kicking goals every week.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely love being a business owner.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: And we have a team of HR consultants and an employment lawyer, and that's exactly what we do.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm living the dream, I guess, turning the latest management um and and neurolinguistic, all the thinking today out there, turning that into really practical, easy to implement solutions, whether it be documentation processes, approaches to difficult conversations, the whole shebang when it comes to managing employees, having them and keeping them.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we have clients today, we have clients across where we're industry agnostic, we say.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: We have clients across all different industries and sectors.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um we've also uh stepping into very recently working with government.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we've just been accepted as a preferred supplier of HR services to local governments across Queensland with everything that goes with having employees and keeping them.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great rundown, Jackie.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I going back to the start, I could see you working in a five-star hotel in around the world somewhere.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you definitely uh you definitely live life to its its its m b the biggest potential.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're very passionate.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and I could see that happening and it didn't line with what you believe in.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously uh reflecting back on that is a really good thing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I decided to make this business journey very authentic as well, make sure that it is fun.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, no matter what I do, I try to get the most out of it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the reason why we wanted to get you on the podcast today is where I'm at with my business.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's definitely a dark spot on uh where I need to be set up for the future as well.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's the area I when I first started my position as national sales manager in a business that had around low 20 numbers.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at that time, you know, we were expected to do everything.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: We would basically use what other people had done in the past.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: What I'd also f found, or looking back, I can see that there was certain people that would do, you know, their their main job might be finance, but all of a sudden they get tacked on with HR as well.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I suppose as the new person coming into the business, you you're only given what they have, and it depends on the ability of the person that did that from the start as to whether you're in a good spot or a dangerous spot.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and we hired a lot of people, and the the business grew probably four times the amount of headcount that we had.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was when we got to around that sort of 50 mark where it started, and we were dealing more around different states and and obviously hiring more people.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: That was when it really sort of impacted what I was doing and the business.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, in a lot of cases, clients we work with they can be like, oh, I'm okay now.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they might only have 20 or 30 people, but everything's moving so fast that it's really dangerous.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think even if you look at AI now, people could be going, Oh, cool, it's you know, we've got AI, right?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, you know, it's not always gonna be right, is it?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the you know, I've seen the cost and impact to business of doing something wrong.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I'm a big advocate for for the the people and the business, and I think that's where a lot of people get caught up in their own space.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think what I liked about the conversation we're gonna have today is really about yeah, aligning the right people, but also the business has to take the responsibility as well.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's got to be a partnership.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a new sales manager, someone's left because they weren't happy that I'm here, which is not uncommon, or someone's new and and all of a sudden you get the exit where people leave, all of a sudden I'm expected to I'm expected to recruit a new salesperson.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I go back in, I find the last job ad, maybe I change a few words, maybe I drop it into AI now, which is better than the old days.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: What I've found, or what we find, is that the the biggest challenge of as a recruiter right now is for us to go looking for the right person or for any company to go right looking for the right person, you need to understand what this person is supposed to be doing.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why in Crystal Ball recruiting, we talk about clearly defining the role, and that leads to a very accurate precision description of what you want this person to do.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Defining the role, Jason, you are absolutely right.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, before even recruitment, in the HR world, we talk about workforce planning.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's the first step.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes it's it's a very brief conversation and a quick decision, but sometimes there's a lot more involved in making sure what roles do we actually need in the organization and which ones we don't, which ones we might alter.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, defining the role is just so critical.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Often we find businesses don't have position descriptions at all.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's all verbal, but that position description actually should be traveling through the whole employee life cycle with them.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it should be kept up to date all the time.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: So defining the role, you know, it's the information on what's absolutely critical for that employee to be successful.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: If the employer or the manager doesn't have clarity as to what they actually want the person to be doing, the KPIs, you know, the goals, the purpose of the role, the technology they need to use.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: So much of the detail, if they don't have that clarity, how on earth are they going to find the person that they're looking for?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: So putting together that position description from the beginning is just so critical.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking the right title.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the title you might use may not actually source you the right type of applicants because the title might be slightly misleading.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: So actually getting the the title right, detailing what activities, what tasks this uh this role is gonna be responsible for.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now, it takes time to get though that wording right, or it's really important to take the time to get the wording right of those activities.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So they needed to be it needs to be worded well with, we say active words, you know, are they going to be managing, are they going to be supervising, are they going to be overseeing?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Are they going to be drafting um and writing things?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Are they going to be proofreading things?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are they, yeah, I think I I've got that point, but active words that really describe the level of accountability that the employee is going to have to take on, the level of decision making that they need to take on in the role will really set that person up for success if they know all that up front.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Then you move on to the right goals.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the right numbers, the right KPIs, the right metrics that you are going to be measuring their success by.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: They need to know this up front.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: The purpose of the role, a lot of a lot of um a lot of what we read or HR people read, it's about purpose.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: The more aligned somebody's internal purpose is with the role and the purpose of the organization, the higher levels of performance we'll get, the higher levels of commitment, the higher levels of loyalty, absenteeism will be less, their intention to stay will be extended.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So the more that we can explain whether that's in the PD, in the position description, but also throughout the advert, the the whole recruitment process, be communicating the purpose of the role is um a real value add.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mentioned before the technology they use.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some of these things that you think are just really basic, but we see it time and time again, as I'm sure you do, where things like this aren't communicated to the to the candidates up front.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then they get right down the uh end of the recruitment process and they've never been asked about their abilities to use certain technology.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: So putting that in the position description, then we go on to um a capability framework, and you might use this that sort of lingo in your line of work as well, Jason.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you're talking here about not just the right skills and knowledge for the role, but the right personal qualities and the right mindset.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So personal qualities tend to be skills and abilities and knowledge you can learn, you can improve on.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Personal qualities are much more deep-seated.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's whether somebody is a big picture person or a more detailed person, it's their their attention to detail.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's certain personal qualities that are much harder to change in people.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: So you're looking to understand what the personal qualities that will be right in this role that you're recruiting.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: So what so then you know what you're looking for in in the candidates.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's mindset.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: So some people have, let's say, a really strong risk mindset.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And say for HR, if we're recruiting somebody in the HR, a risk mindset is absolutely critical.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um business acumen type mindset.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So have they got an employer?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are they coming to this role with a more of an employer mindset than an employee mindset?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's obviously a whole series of um words we and descriptions we put to different mindsets, but understanding what mindset you need this person in the role you're recruiting to to come to work with every day.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And again, mindset is something that's very difficult to change in a human.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: They tend to come to their days or their life with a certain mindset.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: The the the place to a lot of employers forget that that position description is can serve to be very critical down the track if things go rocky with the employees.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: So adding into your position description various aspects of compliance.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got evidence that that employee has been informed of various um um aspects of complying with the way that you work in your business.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking here the recent right to disconnect.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we always recommend that that goes into the position description, whether the role will have the right to disconnect once they finish their hours, or whether they won't, because there are roles where that is not available to a person.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: The importance of workplace health and safety.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: The more that an employer can evidence that they're they have a strong intention to keep their employees safe while they're at work, the better.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we always recommend putting into the position description the importance of workplace health and safety in uh in um in being an employee in that business.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sexual harassment is a another really hot topic.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: The legislation is really ramped up in the last couple of years around sexual harassment.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we always recommend putting in a even a one-liner or a small paragraph about sexual harassment isn't tolerated in this business.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: The more that you can not just show evidence, but impress upon the employee, whether it be in the position description, then during the interview, on day one, during the induction phase and onboarding, that you have informed multiple times these employees of that sexual harassment won't be tolerated, the better.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we always recommend putting it in there.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Under the modern award system, you are required in the whole fair work system.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a requirement that you are informing employees of their award classification level.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, sure, that should be in the employment contract, but we also recommend put it into the position description because it is part of the picture of what level this employee is going to be working at.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So position description is the ideal place.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess the last thing I'd mention there is version control.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I touched on a moment ago the importance of these position descriptions being traveling through the whole lifetime of the employee's time with you.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and therefore it should be travel that position description should be constantly updated and brought to every performance discussion and amended, and then a new date put on it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always clear that that it is the most up-to-date version.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I guess that that'd be my picks in terms of what should be going into a position description to really set this person up for success.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie, that was a great unpack.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for that.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Again, one thing I do love about being on the podcast and being the host is I get to learn a lot every time I get someone on.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: What I love here, you know, is is just being able to reflect myself back to things that have happened or situations I've been in with clients or myself.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a couple of questions that came out of that for me straight away, is right now, there's a lot of pressure on cost reductions, even in my own business in life in general.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Prices are going up.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, companies are looking at ways to do more with less, but sometimes it's it's on the receiving end is somebody in the existing team that has to carry on more weight.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I think that's what we're talking about here with the PD is that it has to be living.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if there is a change within somebody's position, say for me, for example, all of a sudden I'm expected to do marketing as well as sales, you know, that needs to be updated.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the other things that we we find quite common is, you know, typically if someone's hiring for a new business development manager or a new sales manager, there's more problems than just hiring.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, it comes off the back of we're not generating enough business, we need more people on the ground, things have to change.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think what can happen then though is in with a lot of companies, they're they're trying to service all of Australia or a particular state, is that that position all of a sudden may only get advertised as an account manager's position or sales rep, and this comes back to your title, which I'm really big on, but all of a sudden they're being, hey, you know, they're being pulled up by the manager going, You haven't won any new business.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, hang on, this is an account manager's position.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't talk about business development or in the in the PD.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason it's changed is because maybe they've lost a big customer or a big contract, so all of a sudden the account manager or the sales rep is expected to hunt for new business.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they're the sort of triggers from what you're saying is that if there is a change in the dynamics of the role, well that then should be updated in the PD.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, because those active, like the scenarios you gave there, those active words uh somebody might have been assisting with in a certain task in the role, but now they're managing.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's going to change the award, possibly change the award classification.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's going to change possibly the technology that they're using, the the level of meetings that they're attending, change their KPIs, change their the purpose of the role.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it could, yeah, a lot, a lot could be changing as a result of that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so often this does happen.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people will be like, oh, let's make this role redundant and give those tasks to somebody else.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Often you get office manager or duty manager or certain roles, operations manager, where they seem to get piled up with so many different uh different uh focus of their of their role that very quickly they could end up being underpaid or becoming disgruntled because they're being expected to do things that it's not in their position description.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's uh it becomes very tricky when an employer wants to move an employee on as well.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if that employer starts talking about, you know, you just, you know, a couple of months ago we changed your role, we added these other things in, but you're just not meeting our expectations there and the position.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Description hasn't been updated, those employers might end up, and they often do, coming to us at HR Tactics, to say, look, this employee is just not working out.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to terminate them or performance manage them out.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I do that legally?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so we will get one of the key documents that we will ask them to provide us is the position description, as well as the employment contract, uh notes on any conversations that they've had, and and very often they have none of the above.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: They might have a very basic employment contract that they've gotten from the internet.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or and often the position is just verbal, the position description.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's very hard for us to help that employer um either performance manage that person out or terminate them when there's no real evidence that they haven't been meeting what is in their position description.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it always needs to be kept up to date, definitely.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And starts.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: I want to dive a bit deeper into I want to dive a bit deeper into this situation.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say, for example, and always talk about this, that a lot of people in management are not the right person for the job.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think one out of ten is suitable for the role.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Where where does somebody stand if they're the sales manager and all of a sudden they're ringing you, they're saying, this person's not performing, we want to, you know, we want to move them on or we need action, where can we go?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But all of a sudden, as you said, you start asking questions.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, did they know what role they were supposed to be doing?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Was there any KPIs or leading activities?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not, from my experience.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Were they given a proper onboarding process?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not from my experience.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Were they given the data and information required to ramp up quicker?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not from my experience.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Were they coached and mentored and given the the support and pathway to succeed?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: In a lot of cases, no.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: What happens for the sales manager there?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of the time, or the manager, because if you're a business manager or business owner and you have two or three salespeople or however many it is in a as a smaller team, you're the sales manager, aren't you?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's up to you to manage and lead responsibly.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: So and again, it it even comes back to what you mentioned.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's no technology, right?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or they they they accept an account management position only to turn up and they've got no customers.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to us a bit about that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, essentially there's three ways that you can manage you can end somebody's employment, performance manage them out, instantly dismiss them, and because there's about five criteria based on which you can instantly dismiss someone, or redundancy.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: So the role isn't required anymore.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what we're talking here is that first one, performance managing the person out.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: That would, if somebody were to call us with that scenario that you said, that would be the only way that you could that employer could move them on, have any possibility of moving them on.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: But as soon as we uncovered through talking with that employer that there was no PD or it was well out of date, the expectations that that employer is telling us that they have of that employee, there's no evidence that that's ever been communicated to them.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: The KPIs aren't aligned with what the the employer's telling us.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Are the, you know, the metrics that they this employee should have been meeting.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Our advice would be no, if you were going to start putting things in place, taking action towards managing this person out, we would not support that at all because there's no uh evidence that you've been absolutely clear with the with the uh so it would be uh your only option would be to our advice would be to provide them, take a step back, provide them the position description, provide them the the training in the in the um area in the areas where they're falling short, but really absolute clarity about what is required of them and how they're going to meet your expectations.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, once you communicate those things to the person, they may not want the role anymore.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's changed, it's different, it's not what they applied for.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you do have to be very careful with changing roles and just expecting people to succeed with a lack of clarity, but also with a different skill set being required.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Putting somebody, your best salesperson, say you wanted to make them step them up to be the sales manager, that's uh an entirely, in many ways, entirely different skill set.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe this person has never actually managed people before, amongst many other parts of a skill set of being a sales manager.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they it's not always the case that your high performer in one type of role is going to be a high performer in the next step up.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: But yes, you're not left with many options if you don't have a clear position description, you're not um having regular um performance reviews, and um there's only evidence that you haven't been clear with the employee.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: I have these conversations every day, and I think um, you know, part of the reason why I wrote Crystal Ball Recruiting was that I had to get it out of my head, you know, like I it was just it was in there and I needed to get it out.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I needed to get it out for salespeople, but I also needed to thank you.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate the plug there.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I also had to get it out for for business owners and leaders.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a res it's gotta work both ways, right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is the big part where it goes wrong.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if I look back to my own past, sure I made plenty of mistakes, but I've learned a lot because I live it every day, and I think there's so many, you know, wrong turns you can take.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think it gets back to what you said before.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you might have been good at selling because maybe you had all the good customers as well, right?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: You get lifted to sales management, no training, no development, no coaching, never taught how to recruit, and all of a sudden you're it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But not and I've been there and and it feels good, but I think also it's such a you know, the opportunity for error is huge, particularly if they're not supported into that position.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think, you know, a lot of the times the wrong people are selected for the job.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you start off behind the eight ball to start with, and I think that's that's a real trap.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and it's very sad, for want of a better word, to put somebody, put an employee in that position.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: These days there's more and more legislative teeth out there that can trip up employers.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: So in the you know, last couple of years we've had the changes in the psychosocial space.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the workplace health and safety legislation goes broader now with many more uh hoops that an employer has to jump through as far as being active in preventing and managing somebody's psychosocial health in the workplace.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: So putting somebody in a position that they're not prepared for or maybe even wanting, they yeah, you're setting them up to fail.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're creating so many risks for yourself as the employer that quickly or down the track you're going to have some psychosocial claims coming through about possibly workload, the style of management, because if you're not happy with them, you know, often uh the manager's default sort of emotions can come out when they're stressed and they start getting angry with the employee that they're not meeting the the requirements.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's another psychosocial hazard around managing change in the business.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So just changing them to a role and not fully supporting them and providing them the the knowledge and um the the skills that they need, that alone could be another s basis of a psychosocial claim.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really very dangerous territory.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: But you did mention in I love in your book here, uh Crystal Ball Recruiting, which was a great read.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've done a lot of recruitment in my time, but I definitely learnt from here.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've got notes written all through it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: So great book.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned in there that PDs are not said and forget.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: So if I guess if there was one main takeaway from us talking today, it would be that it would be make sure it's a living, breathing document over time.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for mentioning that, Jackie.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I do appreciate your time.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're busy and reading the book really means a lot to me because it's it was a big job writing the book.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now what I'm faced with is people don't have time to read the book.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think only 30% of people read to start with.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then you've got to look at the the uh impact of you know pressures of business and and lack of time and and add in their social media, you know, doom scrolling, everyone's got so much noise.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Lucky it's on audio audio now as well.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: But just going back to that, what you were talking about, and I mentioned this in the book, but potentially the the position someone was hired for to start with has completely changed.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's right now one, you know, key step I would take as a business leader, owner, or manager would be to just stop and pause and reflect and revisit what someone is supposed to be doing.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not comfortable doing that, you could reach out to Jackie, you can reach out to myself because, you know, we really want to make sure.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure the companies that I'm working with have that real strong culture and growth mindset ability.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, but really, you know, we're working with a few clients at the moment and they have they have very strong cultures.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good environment to succeed in.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can grow within the business, they're very compassionate of what they do, but we're also doing a lot of work restructuring, excuse me, restructuring teams at the moment because and looking at, okay, what does an external role look like?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: What does that person do?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are their skills?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: What are their assets that they bring to the table?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: But we're also looking at it going, in a lot of cases, we can't expect that person to also do outbound sales.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we're now creating specific outbound sales positions, whether you call it SDR, sales development rep, outbound sales specialists, because personally I see in the future we're going to have less salespeople, but we need they need to be better.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and the actual business has to provide a better culture and platform for people to succeed.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're now working on, okay, with these outbound sales specialists, what does this involve?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: It involves hunting.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, right from the get-go, if we're out there recruiting, which we are for that role, are you prepared to be on the phone all day calling and trying to create, advance, and close new business opportunities?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are you willing to try and book and able to book phone calls for the business development team in the field to support their business growth?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think right now, if I go back to the account manager hybrid role, which is quite common in a lot of businesses, that a territory manager is expected to manage and grow existing, but not only that, but also to find and win new logos.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the sweet spot, I think, of where a lot of companies are at right now because they need to increase revenue, but the people they have either don't want to or are not skilled or motivated to do it.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: In these situations, some employers might need to look at redundancies, actually making because remember, you're not making the person redundant, you're making the role redundant.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you if there's going to be that much change to the roles, then you might need to look at making certain roles redundant and creating new whole new positions.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because but it it does start with talking with the existing employees about what you're thinking about.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them might be very keen.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them may be very keen, but be honest with you that you know they they don't have those skill sets that are very strong at the moment in the the different the outbound sales, but they're willing to learn, and you might decide that okay, you're gonna put one of those in the in the new roles, the outbound sales roles.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you it's it's tricky.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Got a product that's struggling or launching something new?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Reach out.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're inviting guests who want to make a real impact.