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Healing Shame: How to Build Self-Worth, Self-Compassion & Emotional Resilience | Let's Get Emotional · Let's Get Emotional

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Shame actually helps us and it helps us maintain sort of social hierarchy, prevent rejection, and signal submission after wrongdoing.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the hardest part isn't feeling what you feel, it's finding the words for it.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: We give a simple answer, even when the real answer is a bit more layered.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: So here we slow things down, get specific, and put language to what's happening inside in a way that actually helps.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Let's Get Emotional.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get emotional is an educational podcast hosted by myself, Tatiana Rojas, and Dr.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Jennifer Martin Schatz.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode focuses on one emotion.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're going to talk about the emotion of shame.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We break it down in a way that's clear, human, and practical so you can understand what's happening inside you and what to do with it.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Our mission is simple.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Help you understand what you're feeling, name it with more clarity, and respond in ways that support your life and your relationships.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is for education and general information only.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: It isn't therapy and it doesn't replace mental health care.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in crisis or need immediate support, you can contact 988 or your local emergency services.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: So as we jump in, let's give a quick reminder of some definitions.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So some definitions we have covered in previous episodes.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So emotions are quick automatic reactions that occur in both our body and our brain.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: They act as signals, often appearing before we can even describe them in words.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: These responses provide information.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Your internal system's way of letting you know that something important is happening, such as concerns about safety, connection, fairness, loss, threat, desire, or meeting.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Next is feelings.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So feelings are your conscious experience of emotions.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: They are the words you use to name what's happening, plus the meaning you attach to it based on your history, culture, beliefs, and relationships.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: If an emotion is a body-based signal, a feeling is a label you put on it.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, we have moods.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Moods are longer-lasting emotional states, more like emotional weather.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can be in an irritable mood, a low mood, or a tender mood for hours or days, sometimes without one clear trigger.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Emotions are the spark, feelings are the label, moods are the climate.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, Tatiana, what is our definition of shame today?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about what is defined as shame.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, shame is a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcomings or impropriety, a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute, something that brings censure or reproach.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So shame involves negatively judging yourself when you believe you fail to live up to your own standards or maybe even the standards of others.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Shame may in fact evoke intense discomfort and sometimes a desire to hide.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: People may describe feeling worthless, stupid, foolish, inadequate, or maybe even less than.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I know this definition is pretty short, and I know there's a lot of research to cover today.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to hand it back to you in terms of what does the research tell us about shame?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's definitely a little bit more of a complex emotion than what we've covered previously.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it definitely is.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So first I want to start out with a distinction.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Last episode, we talked about guilt.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to make the distinction between shame and guilt.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So shame is think about it as I am bad, right?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: This global self-attack on ourselves, which leads to withdrawal, right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to isolate and it's also linked to depression.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Guilt, on the other hand, is I did something bad.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more behavior-focused.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: It leads to repair, right, in those relationships.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also linked with empathy.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at it further, shame predicts sort of those maladaptive outcomes, but it also motivates us to hide.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And guilt predicts pro-social behavior.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to be more social and it motivates us to repair things in those relationships.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Shame may function also as this social survival mechanism.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at it from that perspective, shame is more self-conscious and it arises when we evaluate ourselves as flawed, inferior, or unworthy.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it differs from our basic emotions because it requires, once again, self-awareness and social evaluation, both of those.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we see that shame occurs when a person believes they have failed a social or moral standard.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we interpret this failure as evidence of a defective part of us, that defective self.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So how does that look?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it makes us look or feel small or exposed, defective, unworthy, wanting to again hide and isolate.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So in those distinctions between shame and guilt, Tatiana, is there anything that stood out for you?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: The self-awareness piece of I think this is why these emotions and feelings can be so heavy to manage and deal with, because it's truly like right, the mirror is reflecting back at me, and I'm examining, and it's such an internal like process.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which I mean, most emotions are, and but we've also talked about how some some of these can be externalized, like anger and can be seen.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this one's a little, these these are a little bit different, like there's so much internal processing that's happening underneath the surface, which is why they can also feel so debilitating and so heavy in so many ways.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's things that that we feel, and also because we're self-aware, we don't necessarily maybe share these things externally or talk about them.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: We keep a lot of this to ourselves because we want to turtle in.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's one of the big things that kind of stands out to me, at least with this with this particular feeling.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think it's really important to make the distinction between shame, I am bad, guilt, I did bad in those ways and kind of how that that shows.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they can both kind of align and definitely coexist, um, for sure, but definitely helpful to understand, I think, on that very fundamental level.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at shame and what it feels like in our body, so shame has this sort of distinct physiological and behavioral profile.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at common reactions when we feel shame, right?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Our body may suggest like a lowered gaze, or our posture is slumped, or maybe it's more hunched over, right?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: We may cover our face, we may have sort of this reduced vocal tone, but we also behaviorally are going to see that social withdrawal.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So physiologically, we also might see some increased cortisol, right?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Which is the stress hormone, our nervous system is going to be activated and we might feel heat or flushing in our face.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So research suggests that many people describe shame as a sinking feeling in their chest or stomach, like they want to disappear, right?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: They want to hide.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: If we look at now transitioning sort of with evolutionary theories, they suggest that shame actually helps us and it helps us maintain sort of social hierarchy, prevent rejection, and signal submission after wrongdoing.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is specifically, you know, research looking at shame and social rank theory by Gilbert and sort of this adaptive function component, where shame also signals to others this recognition of a social violation of some kind and our desire to remain part of a group.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if we do this chronically, it can become toxic.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as you're, you know, mentioning that, uh, I think the thing that pops into or a phrase that pops into my head, and I think I hear this a lot in various ways, is the am I enough?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of just because we're always kind of measuring that based off of the social interactions that we may have.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you're talking about, yeah, maintaining that social hierarchy.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely I think that's where some of that messaging can potentially come in into our brains and and how we receive that.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely, yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at shame from a developmental perspective in childhood, shame develops once children gain sort of that self-awareness piece, sort of theory of how their mind works, and internalized social standards.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we see this around ages two to three.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Some key childhood influences for shame in children, harsh criticism, humiliation, sort of that conditional love, and also peer rejection.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at some protective factors, right?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So for shame, having a secure attachment, especially with a caregiver, um, guardian, parental figure, that parental warmth and repair after a mistake has been made.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And Tatiana is going to get more specific about things that we say with kids, what they say, and kind of what happens with their bodies.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll talk about that in a couple of minutes.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's important to also mention kind of where this develops in childhood or how it can develop in childhood.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So continuing uh with the research and linking sort of shame to psychological conditions, strong research associations with we see depression um linked with shame, we see social anxiety and shame, we see eating disorders.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because like you can actually kind of look and see if somebody physically has an eating disorder, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that feeling that shame for them, um, substance use disorders, definitely, PTSD, even, and also personality disorders.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important to kind of look at you know those psychological conditions that may influence that emotion of shame.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think once again, just kind of going back to right, these are the things that perhaps we don't necessarily talk about with others or talk about necessarily with our our peers and group settings or really kind of bring up because they're so deeply like impactful in our internal worlds, which is really you know interesting as you're mentioning some of these other like psychological conditions like eating disorder, substance use, ATSD, we tend to want to hide these things and don't want to let others in to let them see the impact.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yes.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Research also connects shame with our identity, and shame often becomes tied specifically to identity domains.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at you know, shame triggers in particular, looking at you know, body image, specifically a woman living in the world today, body image, definitely I can think of all these moments of shame, myself, financial status, right?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Health conditions, that's another one.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you physically can, you know, visibly see somebody look sick.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, absolutely shame involved.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Parenting, right?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: How many times do I hear a parent in my office, you know, sort of state how how shameful they feel or how bad they feel as a parent?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Intelligence level, um, addiction, once again, and you know, specifically also diabetes and chronic illness, that shame piece for that.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So research shows people with chronic illness in particular often experience this sort of perceived stigma, self-blame, and moralized health narratives.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And looking at specifically diabetes stigma research, this is Brown et al.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: in 2013, when society frames illness as a personal failure, shame can grow around that diagnosis and specifically type 2 diabetes.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I see this a lot in my office with the patients that I work with.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's so interesting because some of these things that right you're you're mentioning, especially when it comes to some of the chronic illness, the body image pieces, the health condition, some of those are actually so uncontrollable.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like as as much as you can try to control them, or when they generally pop up, they're they're in states of being a little bit out of control.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you attach shame on top of the things that don't feel controllable, I mean it's like a recipe for just difficulty to overcome, which is why you know it's so important, I think, to have healthy conversations and to be checking in and to be supportive when anyone may be experiencing some of these difficult moments or situations in their lives as conditions are happening and coming up.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely, yes.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: So lastly, research talks about the shame cycle.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we see this psychologically, there's a pattern, and with the cycle, there often is a trigger.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: The trigger sort of leads into shame, which leads into avoidance, isolation, and reinforced shame.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So here are some examples: a mistake or criticism, uh that internal belief, I'm a failure, then we withdraw, we hide, we lose connection, and the shame further deepens.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And with the shame cycle, specifically, we see this linked to depression, addictive behaviors, and secrecy.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those things we mentioned above, you know, especially substance abuse, eating disorders, even depression, sort of having to hide it, even diabetes, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Surrounding, I can think, food, right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Being secret about these things.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very complex, this shame cycle.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's worth sort of, you know, digesting for a minute what happens when we feel shame psychologically and thinking about this shame cycle that we might be dealing with or even going through.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, just so reminded of how important it is to be supportive of anyone that may be experiencing something that's difficult or something that's happened and come up, or whether it's a medical condition or you know, another situation that how necessary it is to just feel support or know that you have a supportive like community to avoid some of this cycle, right?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to avoid and isolate that doesn't help that leads to just more of that deeper and potential for like depression to come through a little bit stronger if we're not connecting.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, any other thoughts?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think just lastly, you know, a thought about that is is if you have a relationship where you feel like there's avoidance or there's isolation, calling that person, texting that person, and just asking, like, hey, are you okay?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking about you, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Reaching out and not directly, you know, saying, Are you feeling shame?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's sort of that reach out, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Repairing that relationship.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we we tend to know, we we tend to be pretty intuitive, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as human beings, that we can sense usually when something is off.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, especially if we know the person well.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's sort of this call to act that if you feel like something is off, check in.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Check in with that person, ask them how they're doing.
• 18:13
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And also, yeah, when doing so, do so with an open ear, not trying to problem solve or take away whatever they're bringing up.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but be supportive, being one of the the big pieces of all of that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's continue to talk about some things that if we're feeling shame, what we might say, what we might feel further in our body.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's get into it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, from like a kiddo's perspective, what might be some things they say and experience in their body?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So a kiddo experiencing some shame, and I'm thinking this is likely under the age of five, they might say, I'm bad, they might want to hide and say, Don't look at me.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: They might even say I want to hide.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: They may say, um, and definitely jump to I didn't do it, uh, kind of going a little bit with that guilt kind of piece.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: They may also say, like, go away, they might, because they want to be away from the situation.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: It may even indicate like you don't love me in that respect.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Love is typically one of those emotions that kiddos can latch on to pretty young and kind of recognize, especially if it's used in the house.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: How might they describe it feeling in their body?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: They might want to hide their face or cover up.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen um little kiddos try and use their hair, especially if they have long enough hair to kind of hide behind.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: You may hide behind a blanket, um, in a corner, something along those lines.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: They also sometimes kiddos will do the thing.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: If they if they can't see you, you can see them indicating that they're hiding.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even when they're definitely right there in plain sight.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they may cling to a caregiver or push them away, depending on what the situation is.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: They may indicate their tummy hurts or feels a little funny.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: They may be crying or frozen or even stuck, um, whether in what they're doing or in how they're feeling.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: We may also see a really big reaction, such as a sudden tantrum, because shame can flip into anger really quickly, and especially if they don't have that expressive opportunity or haven't learned that skill yet.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: We might see it in a very, very basic way through anger.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, what might some kiddos maybe above the age of five say?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they may even use the word I'm I'm embarrassed or I'm so embarrassing.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm stupid, I'm dumb.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: They might say something along the lines of don't tell anyone.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Might say, I want to run away, I want to get away.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: They may even say I hate myself.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some kids might even say this when shame is really, really big based off of what's happened.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: They may even show and feel this in their bodies, such as like a hot face.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: You might see some blushing, some rosy cheeks that kind of pop in really quick and really briefly, and they might try even hide that looking away, looking down might indicate that their throat feels a little bit tight, or there's a lump in their throat because they may have some difficulty speaking it out or sharing it because they're not sure how anything may be received.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely that stomach drop.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think we talked about that a little bit earlier.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's a pit in their stomach, they might even feel a little bit nauseous and describe it as such.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: They definitely are gonna maybe even look like they're trottling inward, if you will.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So head down, kind of wanting to make themselves maybe even look a little bit smaller.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So might indicate they.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Want to disappear or hide.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've often seen kiddos when they don't want to be seen.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: They'll put up their hoodie, be wearing a hat, just trying to avoid eye contact in that respect.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we may also maybe even see some shakiness, fidgetiness, a bouncing knee, a wiggling foot, a tapping of the hand as well, in terms of some of the energy being there.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna pause here for just a moment.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Any any thoughts or any other observations perhaps that you've seen or experienced with younger kiddos by chance?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know what really stands out for me is when a kid says, I hate myself, within me as a clinician, that that red flag goes right up.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is something that I don't want to ignore.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to explore that, but I definitely think exploring it lightly and in a way that is not intrusive.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because if they're gonna say it, they're feeling it, and I want to know kind of what's going on behind that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that that really stood out for me.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely understanding yeah, where that's coming from.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's definitely a huge and important phrase I want to key in on and check up in on for sure.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So all right, let's talk about what some teens and some adults how they might describe their feeling of shame or how they experience it.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm so embarrassed.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was embarrassing, that was so cringe.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe I did that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe I said that, I can't believe that happened.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, people are judging me if they can really externalize that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: One that stands out to me on this one is I'm not enough.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I mentioned that a little bit perhaps earlier when we were talking about this, that feeling of not being enough, and how that measures up in terms of their social hierarchy with their friends and what that may come through as.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they may even say things like and want to hide what happened, whatever the situation is, or hide their feelings.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want anyone to know, I don't want to talk about it, leave me alone.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: You might see it come through in those kinds of statements.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they may even say, and we I think if we've all interacted with teens at some point, that whatever I don't care or I don't know often will also likely pop up, which is why it's so important to kind of share also with them about vocabulary and language surrounding especially these more complex emotions of like shame or guilt.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: We hope that they'll be able to latch on to some phrasing and be able to tell us.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I think along the lines of how they might experience or feel it in their body is definitely along the lines of what we've kind of already talked about.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: But they might experience maybe some heaviness or even feeling like their body shutting down, or maybe even a numb feeling, perhaps.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot to process, it's a lot to think about, it's a lot to hold within the body.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they might even feel a desire or urge to bolt, like leave, isolate, um, maybe engage in some different types of behaviors um that they typically maybe wouldn't, like getting out of a situation or running away, something along those lines.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then also perhaps feeling some more jaw clenching or tension, restless energy underneath the surface.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe how they perhaps could experience some of those feelings of shame.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so Leslie, yeah, let's talk about what adults and might say or how they might experience those feelings of shame.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some adult phrases may sound like, and maybe this has even come out of your mouth at some point, or something that you've definitely thought I shouldn't be like this.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm failing.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like an imposter.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hear this often in the work that I do, like having that imposter syndrome.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I feel exposed.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: If they really knew me, they'd leave if they really knew who I really am or what I've done.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to talk about that.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Very shutting down in that respect.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm not enough.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a bad mom.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a bad partner, I'm a bad person, I'm a bad employee.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I should know better, I should have known better, perhaps.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I need to hide this, or I feel like I'm gonna be rejected.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And these might be thoughts that are just kind of swallowing swirling around in your head, maybe not anything that you've specifically said.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, how might it also show up and fill in your body as you get a little bit older?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, since you have maybe a better understanding of what's happening in your body, it might feel like a collapsing or a deflated feeling.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um it might feel like a buzz of anxiety, an urge to fix or over-explain certain things depending on the situation.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And there may even be also the the opposite of that, a freeze response, blank mind, can't find words, because we may be so shocked or surprised about the emotion that came up.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: We might also experience some of that blushing, the sweating, the chest tightness as well.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Might feel also like a heaviness and like we want to hide or withdraw.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we might even indicate that we also have some racing thoughts, especially after a situation and maybe even a self-critical like spiral that may happen shortly after.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, any experiences or any triggers.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely lots of phrases, lots of thoughts, lots of feelings.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Anything coming to mind for you before we move on to our mini tool for today?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, the biggest, you know, all of this is so great.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that stood out to me was the I don't care as a shield, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Something we see in teens, young adults, and even adults.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that that is a stage of life thing as well.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because being a teenager, being a young adult, the I don't care, I'm using that as a shield because I don't want to talk about it or I don't want to feel it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do that as adults too.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I also, you know, what really comes to mind is women like myself in sort of this perimenopause moment in our life, or that menopause moment where we're older, the I don't care is not a shield.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is the fact that I legitimately don't care, or I don't want to be bothered by it, or I don't want it to hold space in my brain.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not gonna think about it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that that is is a very much a a stage and a chronological age component or piece, um, which I think is interesting.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think all of that, yes, a hundred percent, but also like the I don't care, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is such an easy thing to say to get something to stop and go away.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't have the bandwidth.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how I'm feeling about this thing or whatever's happening.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have the words or phrases, I don't know what it is.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't spent that time really like reflecting, also for sure it can definitely come out in that way as well.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, 100%.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you have our mini tool for today, which I'm excited to hear about.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, before we wrap up, what do you have for us?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: So empirically, empirically, we're gonna look at self-compassion um and some empirical data with it.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And this is Kristen Neff's work.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it conceptualizes self-compassion as a regulatory emotional system that counteracts shame by shifting individuals out of a threat-based self-evaluation into soothing and affiliative states.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, our mini tool is when shame shows up, this is what I'm gonna do with it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of, you know, thinking I'm flawed, I need to hide, I'm not good enough, we're gonna bring self-compassion in and we're gonna activate safety, we're gonna activate connection, and we're gonna activate this emotional regulation.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, how are we gonna do that further?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is we have to name it.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is shame.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Naming it, yes, this is shame.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing we're gonna do.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Second, we're gonna remind ourselves I'm not alone in this.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And going back to some of those things we talked about earlier, you know, that chronic illness piece or you know, that depression, mental health piece, for instance.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: So many people with diabetes, lots of people with depression and mental health, you know, issues, chronic illness issues.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you aren't alone, even though it may feel like it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And third, we're gonna respond to ourselves in a way that we would respond to someone we love, and there is that self-compassion piece.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody we love came to us and and said, you know, I'm feeling like I want to isolate or I haven't talked to you in a couple of days, you can think, okay, there's some isolation happening.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: How would we respond to them?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is a person we love, so we're gonna probably respond with empathy, compassion.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna listen, but we also want to help because we love them.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have to show up for ourselves like this as well.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that moment right there is where this shame starts to lose its power.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: When you respond to yourself with the same love, you respond to somebody you love.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one thing that stands out to me is you know, if you can't think of it necessarily as how you would respond to a friend, or that might actually be right the the end piece, but also like if I was talking to myself as a child or a kiddo, what type of empathy and love and support and care would we need in that moment?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm talking to the seven-year-old version of myself, what would I have needed?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't want harsh words that probably wouldn't really nurture me um in the way that I would likely need in those moments.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, I think thinking even of yourself as a younger version of you and what you might need in those particular moments may also be another helpful lens to look at that through.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, absolutely.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't have any other thoughts.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully that you know you all can take some of this self-compassion and turn that inwards.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's my hope for today.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for sharing and for bringing all this helpful information and for just in and talking this through.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll look to go ahead and end for today, everyone.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: In the next episode, we'll explore love, what it is, and how it shows up in the body.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, thank you so much for being here.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: If this episode helped, consider subscribing and sharing it with someone who could use better words for what they feel, and we'll catch it on the next episode.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Bye everyone.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.