Latest / The Third Thing / S2E16: Are You a Good Friend to Yourself? On Self-Abandonment and People-Pleasing

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S2E16: Are You a Good Friend to Yourself? On Self-Abandonment and People-Pleasing · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:05
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and voodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the proceeds.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap.
• 0:48
  Michelle: So we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Michelle: Hi Dee.
• 0:53
  Michelle: Hi, my beloved.
• 0:54
  Michelle: How are you?
• 0:55
  Michelle: Oh, you're like a Disney princess.
• 1:00
  Michelle: It's gonna be like little birdies.
• 1:02
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 1:05
  Michelle: I can't wait till we have sound effects.
• 1:08
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 1:08
  Michelle: I like little birds flying around.
• 1:10
  Michelle: Hey, could happen.
• 1:12
  Danyelle: Um, I am present.
• 1:14
  Danyelle: I'm present.
• 1:15
  Danyelle: I'm always excited to do this.
• 1:17
  Danyelle: It I was going to sleep last night and I was like, my job is cool.
• 1:24
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:24
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:25
  Danyelle: I love that.
• 1:26
  Danyelle: Yeah, it was it was a really nice reflection as I was falling into your princess pillow.
• 1:35
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:38
  Danyelle: And my dreams.
• 1:40
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:41
  Danyelle: So I yeah, I'm I'm here and present, and I continue to just feel like how much fun is this?
• 1:48
  Michelle: Hell yeah.
• 1:49
  Danyelle: There is a younger version who's like, this is your life.
• 1:54
  Michelle: That part.
• 1:54
  Danyelle: Okay, girl.
• 1:56
  Danyelle: We win.
• 1:57
  Danyelle: I love that.
• 1:58
  Danyelle: How are you?
• 1:59
  Michelle: I'm great.
• 2:00
  Michelle: We did just blind ourselves with an influencer light.
• 2:04
  Michelle: So I'm we were like, oh no.
• 2:07
  Michelle: It's a very elder millennial of me.
• 2:09
  Michelle: But I'm like, I think it's too bright.
• 2:11
  Michelle: It's too bright.
• 2:12
  Michelle: I was really trying to push through.
• 2:14
  Michelle: I was like, okay.
• 2:15
  Michelle: And then I was like, No, we're gonna just have to have wrinkles.
• 2:19
  Michelle: This is us because holy crap, I can still see a million circles.
• 2:23
  Michelle: All the circles.
• 2:24
  Michelle: Yeah, so that's how I am.
• 2:25
  Michelle: But this is a deep one today.
• 2:28
  Michelle: I guess they all are at the end of the day.
• 2:31
  Michelle: But you know that I geek out on this and and whatnot.
• 2:35
  Michelle: So this feels like a nice dovetail from last week's episode.
• 2:40
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Danyelle: We're gonna be talking about being a good friend to yourself.
• 2:45
  Danyelle: Up to this point, we've really talked about the external and how we show up in the external.
• 2:53
  Danyelle: And today we're gonna talk about the internal and what happens inside when we're navigating platonic love and all of the challenges and joys that we've talked about and touched on thus far.
• 3:11
  Danyelle: But what is really happening inside your system when you're navigating these things?
• 3:18
  Michelle: Yeah, and this idea of people pleasing as a way to show up in many relationships at work and romantic love for your kids, but people pleasing in friendship and that it is a form or can be a form of self-abandonment.
• 3:35
  Michelle: And so unpacking that a little bit.
• 3:37
  Michelle: We hear that term a lot, people pleasing, but just making sure that we know what it is and we can kind of pose some of the questions where you can identify it because you might not people please in every relationship in your life.
• 3:51
  Michelle: And sometimes it can work, and sometimes it's at a real detriment to yourself.
• 3:57
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 3:57
  Danyelle: We're gonna explore how it can cost you and what are the ways that self-abandonment creates wedges in relationships.
• 4:12
  Michelle: Can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself.
• 4:16
  Danyelle: Okay, girl.
• 4:17
  Michelle: I mean, if yeah, you if you know me in real life, that's that's all the time.
• 4:25
  Danyelle: It would be me too.
• 4:27
  Danyelle: Well, let me say, it is me too, but only in my house.
• 4:30
  Michelle: Yeah, no, not gonna do it on mic.
• 4:33
  Michelle: Oh no.
• 4:33
  Michelle: All right, fair enough.
• 4:34
  Michelle: Oh no.
• 4:35
  Michelle: We'll see if we can crack you.
• 4:36
  Michelle: I think you did do Cardi B in the money episode.
• 4:40
  Michelle: Money.
• 4:42
  Danyelle: I need her auto too.
• 4:43
  Danyelle: Yeah, we'll get you again.
• 4:45
  Danyelle: I wanna say every rule we have on how to be a good friend, we've probably broken to ourselves.
• 4:55
  Danyelle: Oof.
• 4:56
  Danyelle: And often we say things to ourselves, do things to ourselves that we would never do, even to our worst enemy.
• 5:05
  Danyelle: You know, there is a way in which we can be so harmful internally.
• 5:11
  Danyelle: And because it's inside, there's not a lot of checking, there's not a lot of like, whoa, something I say um to my therapist clients a lot is don't be mean to my client.
• 5:23
  Michelle: I knew you were gonna say that because you say it to me too.
• 5:26
  Michelle: Don't be mean to my best friend.
• 5:28
  Danyelle: And it is this would you would you say that to somebody else?
• 5:35
  Danyelle: Or how would you feel if somebody knew that that was the thing you were saying to yourself?
• 5:39
  Danyelle: If your best friend knew that because of a conflict or because of something that didn't feel good within the relationship, this internal dialogue was you know running.
• 5:53
  Danyelle: I call mine negative tape, and I I call it tape like old cassette tape.
• 5:58
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 5:59
  Danyelle: Aging yourself.
• 6:00
  Danyelle: Absolutely aging myself.
• 6:01
  Danyelle: But it's that just like on repeat of the stories we tell ourselves, the things that we believe, and yeah, it's hard.
• 6:11
  Michelle: There's also the I want to double and triple down on that question of are you being a good friend to yourself?
• 6:19
  Michelle: Because I mean, let's just start naming it.
• 6:21
  Michelle: The things that I would do in friendship is I would feed someone really well if they came over to my house.
• 6:28
  Michelle: And I would be really thoughtful with a gift when it was their birthday, and I would be so stoked to celebrate them for an accomplishment.
• 6:36
  Michelle: I would really treat them softly, give them hugs, and be very patient with a story that they were telling or with an emotion that they were struggling with.
• 6:48
  Michelle: And I would meet them with grace.
• 6:50
  Michelle: And then when you reverse it, you think, oh, it's not a big deal, it's not worth celebrating.
• 6:55
  Michelle: I'm not gonna spend that money on myself.
• 6:57
  Michelle: I don't need it.
• 6:58
  Michelle: I'm gonna push myself really hard.
• 7:00
  Michelle: I'm not sleeping, or whatever it is.
• 7:03
  Michelle: It's like we are so, so hard on ourselves in ways that we would not be with someone that we love.
• 7:10
  Michelle: And yet it's really important to love yourself so that you can show up in friendship and and in your life in these meaningful ways.
• 7:22
  Danyelle: I would love for you to share a real life moment of a time that you feel like you people pleased or self-abandoned to keep the relationship comfortable or to keep the other person comfortable, safe.
• 7:39
  Michelle: Normally I'm so good at thinking of an anecdote, but I'm I think I do it all.
• 7:44
  Michelle: I mean, I surely I do this all the time, but like why can't I think of a single example?
• 7:50
  Michelle: I mean Am I not a people pleaser?
• 7:59
  Danyelle: I mean, you're not really.
• 8:00
  Danyelle: You've done a really good job to unpeople please yourself.
• 8:02
  Danyelle: You used to be.
• 8:04
  Michelle: Wild.
• 8:05
  Michelle: It's okay.
• 8:06
  Michelle: No, it's a good thing, but like It's great.
• 8:10
  Michelle: Since I'm perfect.
• 8:14
  Michelle: And don't people please at all, and I'm completely healed.
• 8:17
  Michelle: Top of the mountain, yeah.
• 8:19
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 8:19
  Michelle: From up on on high, I would love to know if you have a story about when you've self-abandoned or invested in people pleasing to keep a relationship safe.
• 8:32
  Danyelle: Yeah, I'm thinking about a friendship that has gone through a lot of different transitions recently, I would say.
• 8:45
  Danyelle: There was a longer period of time of a break.
• 8:48
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 8:49
  Danyelle: But yeah, that I had a really close friend.
• 8:53
  Danyelle: And I, you know, it for me, this people, people pleasing for me comes out as avoidance.
• 9:01
  Michelle: Interesting.
• 9:02
  Danyelle: And the way that I do it is just by not saying anything, right?
• 9:06
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 9:06
  Danyelle: I just like let it go.
• 9:08
  Danyelle: And I'm just like, yep.
• 9:09
  Danyelle: I think sometimes it can come off as younger sibling energy, but it does cost at times because when I'm showing people that I'm always okay, I'm fine, they might not recognize when I am feeling hurt.
• 9:24
  Danyelle: And because I don't always feel safe, specifically in this friendship, to name that this person did a lot of things that were outside of my bounds, outside of the things I would allow people to do or say or or treat me.
• 9:39
  Danyelle: And I never said anything.
• 9:41
  Danyelle: And that people pleasing was I really enjoyed my time when I was with this person.
• 9:48
  Danyelle: And I didn't want to lose that.
• 9:51
  Danyelle: I didn't want to lose what was, what had been built, what was there.
• 9:56
  Danyelle: And so I would just go along with it and not ever say, like, that hurt my feelings, or I didn't want to actually do that thing.
• 10:06
  Danyelle: Or like, no, I'm not going.
• 10:09
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 10:10
  Danyelle: And for me, that self-abandonment turned into more avoidance and not wanting to be around that person.
• 10:21
  Danyelle: And so instead of having the direct conversation, which in hindsight probably is a lot of small things built and built and built.
• 10:30
  Danyelle: And for me, I started to then just have more distance.
• 10:35
  Danyelle: Right.
• 10:35
  Danyelle: And instead of saying, hey, I need things to look different, we drifted.
• 10:42
  Danyelle: Right.
• 10:43
  Danyelle: And there was more of a like bigger rupture.
• 10:46
  Danyelle: And I just used that as like a okay, well, I don't have to deal with that anymore.
• 10:54
  Michelle: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:55
  Michelle: But then you lose a relationship that mattered to you.
• 10:57
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 10:58
  Danyelle: And and I will say, you know, in preparation for this episode, I was thinking of one person in particular, and then I was like, oh, and that person, oh, and that person.
• 11:09
  Danyelle: And I started to see that pattern of it's almost like I know it's gonna come to a head.
• 11:16
  Danyelle: And my people pleasing is very much like, I'll stay until I can't.
• 11:21
  Danyelle: Right.
• 11:22
  Danyelle: And then once it comes to the head, once it it bubbles to the top, that's my okay.
• 11:28
  Danyelle: Very Sagittarius of me.
• 11:31
  Michelle: I'm having a situation come up, and it may come up again when we talk about weddings and marriage, but I think it's an interesting example because I was a maid of honor in my very early 20s when I was on cash.
• 11:46
  Michelle: I might have been recently laid off or something.
• 11:49
  Michelle: But regardless, as we all know, weddings are costly.
• 11:52
  Michelle: You have to have the outfit, and there's the bachelorette party and um, etc.
• 11:56
  Michelle: etc.
• 11:57
  Michelle: And the other bridesmaids were not tight on money in the same way that I was.
• 12:02
  Michelle: And so I feel like the people pleasing came in when it's like, I want you to have this special day, and me saying that something's gonna be hard for me is going to make it hard for you.
• 12:13
  Michelle: And so I'll stretch myself and I will lose weight to fit into the dress that doesn't come in my size because I also can't afford alterations.
• 12:22
  Michelle: And yes, I'm convincing myself that I'm doing the right thing to make this person happy because it's what's expected of me, and I'm resentful and I'm not having as much fun.
• 12:34
  Michelle: And could I have received some help or grace if I had said I'm having a hard time or set some boundaries?
• 12:42
  Michelle: And, you know, and along the way, I I had to because there were things I genuinely couldn't participate in.
• 12:47
  Michelle: But um, I think there are moments where you convince yourself you're doing the right thing when another person would maybe even be horrified if they knew how much you were bending yourself to make them happy and would maybe never ask that of you.
• 13:02
  Danyelle: I think that is a really important key piece there because we hold this in isolation, we hold this internally.
• 13:10
  Danyelle: And, you know, I've had conversations with people that I've had a situation where there's been a rupture and then we come back together.
• 13:19
  Danyelle: And I know if I had said things out loud, it would have shifted how the relationship was.
• 13:28
  Danyelle: And so also honoring that our protector parts are there to protect us from situations that feel similar and that your body's working exactly the way it's supposed to.
• 13:41
  Danyelle: However, it's a it is about being able to say this isn't the same situation.
• 13:46
  Danyelle: And that is that's a part of the work.
• 13:48
  Danyelle: That's a part of the internal work.
• 13:50
  Danyelle: That's a part of loving yourself.
• 13:51
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 13:52
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 13:53
  Michelle: Um, so I love that you just brought up parts, and I know we brought it up in previous episodes as like this part of myself or the protective part, just to clarify, our parts arise to help us adapt to physiological, psychological, social needs.
• 14:10
  Michelle: And so it's like they're helpers.
• 14:12
  Michelle: They're trying to help us get through a situation to make sure we get out on the other side safely, socially, acceptably, and protected.
• 14:22
  Michelle: But we start to develop these parts often at a young age or during certain traumatic events.
• 14:28
  Michelle: And so they maybe did get us through this idea of avoidance, did protect you from having difficult conversations that didn't feel safe or maybe would have been physically unsafe even.
• 14:38
  Michelle: And then as you age, ideally you're doing some of the work to identify when those parts are arising and retrain them.
• 14:46
  Michelle: That we're older now, we have different tools at our disposal, that actually this emotional situation is not physically harming me, and I can wade through those waters in different ways.
• 14:57
  Michelle: And so, likewise, when it comes to people pleasing, it's this idea of like this primal need for acceptance that if you were kicked out of the cave, as it were, that you could get mauled by a bear and you could starve to death.
• 15:11
  Michelle: And so, community and friendship was survival being sort of part of the pack and communal living is how we've survived.
• 15:20
  Michelle: And so, yes, a fight with a friend isn't gonna kill you, but it can truly feel like a death.
• 15:27
  Michelle: Exactly.
• 15:27
  Michelle: Yeah, it's a lot, it can it can feel like a lot in your body, and so a number one, offering grace for that intenseness you feel when you're in conflict with with a friend and trying to avoid that is very real and rooted in your biology, but also B, starting to distance yourself from this idea that you need to monitor and protect everybody's happiness, and also even that you should know what makes a person happy.
• 15:57
  Michelle: In that wedding example that I just said, I would venture to guess that if you're somebody's maid of honor, they just want you there with them and care about you deeply and don't want you to go broke buying a bridesmaid's dress that you'll never wear again.
• 16:13
  Michelle: And so freeing yourself from having to guess and learning some new tools to stop people pleasing so that actually you both can be happy and not just one-sided.
• 16:26
  Danyelle: And I would add the layer of fawning as people pleasing.
• 16:32
  Danyelle: And so when we layer internal family systems or parts work with this idea of the fight, fight, fight, flight, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.
• 16:46
  Michelle: The F's.
• 16:47
  Michelle: I'll getcha.
• 16:48
  Danyelle: It is this nervous system response.
• 16:51
  Danyelle: This is what we're what we're really saying, right?
• 16:53
  Danyelle: And so if we link fawning to people pleasing, right, it is this like, no, no, it's okay, like let me do the thing because our nervous system is ringing very loudly, saying, unsafe, unsafe, unsafe.
• 17:11
  Danyelle: And so when you're talking about shifting the way that you're engaging in these situations, really understanding what's in your toolbox, that's how you can change the way you're showing up.
• 17:24
  Danyelle: That's the way that it can feel safer and more comfortable naming what's happening in your system.
• 17:30
  Danyelle: I think sometimes, you know, when we're together, I think I'm gonna say we do a really good job at naming where we are.
• 17:39
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 17:40
  Danyelle: And, you know, that's how I start every single therapy session.
• 17:44
  Danyelle: How are you arriving?
• 17:46
  Danyelle: And it's because when you can name it, when you can say, I'm feeling really anxious about this, I'm feeling really scared, I'm feeling really excited, and that, you know, energy is palpable.
• 17:59
  Danyelle: People around you can meet you.
• 18:01
  Michelle: I want to bring up this idea of fawning that you were talking about, or this responsive fawning, is reminding me of my sister.
• 18:09
  Michelle: I don't think she would mind me bringing up this situation, but I think it's really something we all can resonate with, which is choosing a place to eat.
• 18:18
  Michelle: And this is an everyday example with whether it's our partner, any relationship in our life, that can be really frustrating because part of the joy of eating out together is sharing a meal and that you're both gonna enjoy it.
• 18:31
  Michelle: And we have preferences, we have dietary restrictions, we know what we ate last night or what we're gonna do tomorrow.
• 18:37
  Michelle: And so there's all these factors playing a role.
• 18:41
  Michelle: And sometimes I think, especially people who are socialized as women are taught that to have a very strong opinion is not desirable, makes you a bull in a China shop, makes you somebody who's unpleasant.
• 18:56
  Michelle: And as far as we've progressed in some ways socially, that really lingers with many of us that we should be pleasant and easygoing.
• 19:04
  Michelle: My sister is someone who has worked really hard on her health and on prioritizing that in her life, which really does mean not only packing food for yourself and saying no, thank you, which can feel like a rejection for people.
• 19:20
  Michelle: I think it's it's been a lot more about the social experiment of it all than it even is about eating, because it feels sometimes like a rejection of me.
• 19:30
  Michelle: If I'm like, oh, I made this thing, and you're like, no, thank you.
• 19:33
  Michelle: It's really hard culturally to navigate that.
• 19:35
  Michelle: And so when we try and choose meals for families, she'll be like, but what do you want?
• 19:40
  Michelle: And I'm like, babe, I'm gonna, I'm I'm okay.
• 19:44
  Michelle: Whatever you want, whatever works.
• 19:45
  Michelle: Well, and then she'll be like, well, really, like what are you in the mood for?
• 19:49
  Michelle: And I'll be like, I don't know, how about we just do Chipotle bowls?
• 19:51
  Michelle: And she'll be like, well, that's kind of hard because da-da-da.
• 19:54
  Michelle: And I'm like, choose a place.
• 19:57
  Michelle: I don't care.
• 19:58
  Michelle: And so I think bypassing this expectation of not being able to say what we want, especially with those relationships where you know you're safe and you can practice that skill, it's one thing to negotiate with me, knowing we have that basis of love and respect, versus maybe an employer where you're like you don't know how much money they want to spend, or is it fancy or not?
• 20:23
  Michelle: I get it.
• 20:24
  Michelle: But I do find myself being friends with people who take the backseat a bit more.
• 20:29
  Michelle: And I think it's a two-way street.
• 20:31
  Michelle: I think one, it's easy then for me to get what I want because I will just hop in the driver's seat and go.
• 20:38
  Michelle: But I think also for a more introverted or a more go with the flow kind of person, it's it can be really comforting when someone's just like, yep, I know where we're going, let's go.
• 20:51
  Danyelle: Our relationship in a nutshell.
• 20:53
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:53
  Danyelle: I mean, I hop in.
• 20:55
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:55
  Danyelle: I mean, I think that's real that feels it feels real.
• 20:59
  Danyelle: And it's it is really interesting when people who I'm more of the driver with see me with you because they are like, oh, this is different.
• 21:12
  Danyelle: And it is, it's it does feel safer, right?
• 21:17
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 21:17
  Michelle: I do think that it's important though to continue to build on this idea of secure attachment and that we are allowed to show up, like you are allowed to rest in our relationship, and I'm allowed to take care, but you're also allowed to say when something isn't landing or working, and it is more of a I got you energy, and I will take the lead, and you just tell me when you're ready to step up.
• 21:44
  Michelle: That's moved beyond people pleasing at this point, and it allows us to sort of just live into our comfort zones.
• 21:51
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 21:52
  Danyelle: And it allows us to be messy.
• 21:56
  Danyelle: I really appreciate that.
• 21:57
  Danyelle: And I've talked about chronic illness on The podcast, and I get to live in my messiness of chronic illness because I know you have me, I know you hold me, and I don't have to people please, I don't have to push through.
• 22:11
  Danyelle: And even when I'm like, I'm feeling a lot of shame, I'm feeling really uncomfortable in my body.
• 22:15
  Danyelle: You're like, you're okay, you are safe.
• 22:18
  Danyelle: Um, and that's that's what it's about, you know?
• 22:22
  Danyelle: And I think it is such a beautiful practice, right?
• 22:25
  Danyelle: You do that so well with me.
• 22:27
  Danyelle: How are you doing that with you?
• 22:29
  Michelle: Not well.
• 22:34
  Danyelle: One of the things that I think we forget is the transferable skills that we have.
• 22:39
  Danyelle: That it is it's it is in your toolbox, and so when we're able to say, I got you, literally, Michelle was like, You're totally okay.
• 22:49
  Danyelle: It's totally okay.
• 22:50
  Danyelle: That's what you said to me today.
• 22:52
  Danyelle: With a kissy face, it was very sweet, and I still felt shame and I felt it still felt big in my body, and I still get to show up.
• 23:00
  Danyelle: Yep.
• 23:01
  Danyelle: And really kind of thinking about this episode, it's like, how do we put the mirror, turn the mirror around, and do that work to support the internal need to say it, to hold it, to trust it.
• 23:22
  Danyelle: And hello.
• 23:24
  Danyelle: If you were to say, no, bitch, you better get here, and I don't care if you don't feel well, maybe that's not your person.
• 23:34
  Danyelle: Yeah, you know, or what's happening with you.
• 23:38
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 23:38
  Michelle: I'm having, I know like the what's bubbling up for you is the end of the episode, but I'm having this real moment of like one of the biggest takeaways from my early days of therapy was the like pause and reframe.
• 23:54
  Michelle: And I don't think any of these tools that we're offering is like you learn it and you fix it and you're solved forever.
• 24:00
  Michelle: I mean, to your point, I'm like, and we're so great and we're secure attached, and da-da-da.
• 24:05
  Michelle: And then you're like, and how do you treat yourself?
• 24:08
  Michelle: You know, and I and so we're still learning, we're still in practice and work.
• 24:13
  Michelle: But there is another Michelle who you've met and probably knew for many years that would have been like, um, but it's time to record and you're late.
• 24:22
  Michelle: And when are we gonna get there?
• 24:23
  Michelle: And when are you gonna be here?
• 24:24
  Michelle: And I've already been there.
• 24:25
  Michelle: And I think it's grind culture, it's capitalism, it's the patriarchy, it's this whole system that we not only grew up in, but we've lived in and contributed to.
• 24:37
  Michelle: Lord knows I've held people to task, you know, like I think they call it Queen Bee syndrome, but I had to go through it and it was hard for me, and I'm gonna make it hard for you, kind of thing.
• 24:48
  Michelle: And so it's not that I am healed from all of that and it doesn't enter my body.
• 24:53
  Michelle: I think it enters yours as well.
• 24:55
  Michelle: Otherwise, there wouldn't be shame.
• 24:56
  Michelle: Otherwise, you just be like, I'm easy breezy.
• 24:58
  Michelle: And we we respect people's time, but I get to pause and be like, is there a stress here?
• 25:07
  Michelle: And actually, no, nobody's banging down the door for episode, you know, six, 10 weeks in advance.
• 25:14
  Michelle: Like we have space, we have time, we get to offer that to each other.
• 25:18
  Michelle: Um, and so I realize that's like stepping slightly outside of this idea of people pleasing, but it's all a part of like dismantling both the parts that were protecting us that are no longer serving, the outside stressors, and you get to ask yourself, is that real?
• 25:35
  Michelle: And this pause reframe of like, I'm not always gonna get it right every time, but even just like slowing down helps.
• 25:44
  Michelle: And I've had to do that many times when I look in the mirror before we head out to have cameras all in our face, and I am like, oh, hello, gray hair, and whatever.
• 25:55
  Michelle: And then I stop and go, actually, you know what?
• 25:57
  Michelle: You're fucking adorable and you're working hard, and people are gonna love you, and let's go in the way that I would a best friend.
• 26:06
  Michelle: And that's not to say I didn't start a little bit mean, but I can pause and reframe.
• 26:12
  Danyelle: I love a pause and reframe.
• 26:14
  Danyelle: Yeah, it gives spaciousness, it gives grace, it allows for imperfection.
• 26:23
  Danyelle: And you talked about these systems that we that contribute to this.
• 26:27
  Danyelle: That is the antidote.
• 26:29
  Danyelle: Imperfection is the antidote.
• 26:31
  Danyelle: Grace is the antidote.
• 26:33
  Danyelle: Rest, slowness, being able to externalize it, look at it, hold it in your hand, and then say, I don't need to, I don't need that right now.
• 26:43
  Michelle: Yeah, and I don't need to give it to someone else.
• 26:46
  Michelle: And what I can give is like, you're okay, we're okay, we're gonna make it work, you know.
• 26:52
  Danyelle: And then for me, I can give myself a soft landing because I don't have to fear that my actions, the way I'm showing up, what I need is too much for you.
• 27:07
  Michelle: I know that one place where I've had to really consider people pleasing is in my family.
• 27:14
  Michelle: And I that's important to name because it they are relationships in my life that are longstanding.
• 27:21
  Michelle: But this role, whether it was put upon me or I adopted it myself or both, that I am in charge of managing the family, comfort or happiness.
• 27:33
  Michelle: And ultimately, what it boils down to is safety.
• 27:37
  Michelle: If mom is happy, if dad is happy, if things are clean, that I can then be safe.
• 27:44
  Michelle: And it's interesting in adulthood, if I'm sitting on the couch and I'm on my phone, and then my wife comes home early and I hear the door, I jolt up and I'll throw the phone.
• 27:56
  Michelle: And I had a moment of like, whoa, where did that come from?
• 27:59
  Michelle: I've never been in trouble with my wife and I'm just on my phone.
• 28:04
  Michelle: But this idea that I need to ensure the household is in a certain way so that everybody's calm, so that I can be safe.
• 28:15
  Michelle: And that's a lot of unlearning to do, and that's one specific to family and relations, but I think can be mirrored in our friendship relationships as well.
• 28:26
  Michelle: That if you are sad, like you've heard the like, oh my god, don't cry, don't cry, or like that that person isn't shit, don't cry about them, it doesn't matter.
• 28:35
  Michelle: But actually, it's become sort of this ninja skill to I going back to how I introduced myself in grad school, my anecdote was I make people cry at parties, and I don't actually make them cry.
• 28:49
  Michelle: I offer a container by which you can have any range of emotions, and it's not too much for me.
• 28:56
  Michelle: And that is part of healing your nervous system and your people pleasing, and like your you just don't have to control how somebody else is gonna show up.
• 29:07
  Danyelle: Yeah, your fixer part.
• 29:09
  Danyelle: You know, that part that jumps in to fix, to save, to make everything better.
• 29:15
  Danyelle: What you're speaking to is a coping skill that you learned in childhood that kept you safe, that you introduce into adolescence and early adulthood and adulthood into all of these different relationships you have.
• 29:32
  Danyelle: And then one day you're like, why am I doing this?
• 29:36
  Danyelle: Why am I jumping up on the couch, you know, and throwing my phone like I'm six and the dishes aren't done or my chores aren't done?
• 29:45
  Danyelle: Um, and that is exactly what we're speaking to.
• 29:48
  Danyelle: When there, when there are those parallel experiences, and we slide back into when that coping skill was created, we don't know the difference until we do that work, until we have this pause and reframe.
• 30:06
  Danyelle: What is the evidence?
• 30:08
  Danyelle: What is real?
• 30:10
  Danyelle: Is this mine?
• 30:12
  Danyelle: Was this mine?
• 30:13
  Danyelle: And I don't need it anymore.
• 30:14
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 30:15
  Danyelle: I'll say when we can stop managing, or when we can stop feeling like we have to manage, hold, fix, solve everybody else's stuff, innately we start being better to ourselves because we're not putting that energy on the external.
• 30:36
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 30:38
  Michelle: And I think the invitation here is a bit in going back to the boundaries episode, but it can be as easy as like, are you saying what you need in relationships?
• 30:48
  Michelle: Start with picking a dinner place and saying, This is where I'd like to go and seeing how that lands.
• 30:55
  Michelle: And if you have a friend who's calls you and is constantly using you as a dumping ground, but doesn't then reciprocate in ways that would feel good for you.
• 31:04
  Michelle: Of course, there's that opportunity to pull on nonviolent communication and set the boundary of like, hey, check in with me first, ask if it's a good time.
• 31:12
  Michelle: But also you checking in with yourself and understanding that you don't like that, maybe the first step is I just don't answer the phone anymore.
• 31:20
  Michelle: And you don't have to control them or how they act or feel.
• 31:23
  Michelle: You just get to do what works for you.
• 31:26
  Michelle: And it's part of this thesis of being a good friend to yourself ultimately makes you a better friend.
• 31:34
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 31:34
  Danyelle: If you can do it to yourself first, it's so much easier to do it to others.
• 31:39
  Danyelle: And I say that in a way of you're already doing it for other people, you're already showing up, giving the tenderness, giving those soft landings.
• 31:49
  Danyelle: Just remember that you have to do it for yourself.
• 31:53
  Danyelle: It makes it so much better.
• 31:55
  Michelle: Did anything bubble to the surface for you this episode?
• 31:59
  Danyelle: Uh, I will say it's just a good reminder.
• 32:03
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Danyelle: I feel like reminder was my my last episode too, but I am a professional spaceholder.
• 32:12
  Danyelle: I give a lot to others.
• 32:15
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 32:15
  Danyelle: And it feels useful.
• 32:18
  Danyelle: I love it.
• 32:19
  Danyelle: I feel so to be a spaceholder in this way and in lots of different ways.
• 32:25
  Danyelle: I'm a cancer moon.
• 32:27
  Danyelle: So, you know, I'm the mother of the zodiac.
• 32:29
  Danyelle: Like I want a mother and nurture and hold.
• 32:32
  Danyelle: And I forget that I can do that for myself, that I need to do that for myself, that I am when I'm pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, um, if I'm not refilling, that's a problem.
• 32:46
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 32:47
  Danyelle: It's a problem.
• 32:48
  Danyelle: And, you know, it's a good reminder of the work that I still need to do or the work that I will continue to do, as well as giving us myself the grace of we're all learning, we're all doing the best that we can.
• 33:06
  Danyelle: And we're allowed to start again.
• 33:08
  Danyelle: We're allowed to try again.
• 33:10
  Michelle: I like that.
• 33:12
  Michelle: How about for you?
• 33:13
  Michelle: I liked the reflection that I don't identify as much as a people pleaser anymore in friendship.
• 33:22
  Michelle: I think there are other relationships where I still have work to do, but that was a nice reflection from you.
• 33:30
  Michelle: And I think the thing I didn't mention in the episode, but that's coming up right now, is that we're allowed to change our mind or for there to be a limit to how much you're willing to give, because sometimes it really does feel good.
• 33:43
  Michelle: Like with the wedding example, it feels good to show up for someone and create special memories without being a problem or anything.
• 33:50
  Michelle: But but identifying the limit is okay and is important, and even in the way that I hold space for folks, especially when they're my closest people and there's reciprocation.
• 34:04
  Michelle: But then sometimes they are people far and wide, or there were days even at work where in my previous role it felt like it was coming at me from all angles and that I was the mother, you know.
• 34:17
  Michelle: And I think what's missing is that it's not anyone else's fault.
• 34:21
  Michelle: It's that I didn't have any boundaries around it, or I didn't really know until the end that it had been too much.
• 34:28
  Michelle: And so just giving myself and giving you permission to change your mind and sort of it requires that checking in with your body to be like, ooh, I really feel drained.
• 34:39
  Michelle: Where is there a boundary I need to set?
• 34:41
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 34:42
  Danyelle: I also just wanna, yeah, we have workbooks.
• 34:46
  Danyelle: We've we've named a couple of these things, attachment style, nonviolent communication, as well as boundaries.
• 34:52
  Danyelle: And so head over to our website if you're interested in doing a little bit more deeper work.
• 34:57
  Danyelle: I think it could be really supportive.
• 34:58
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 34:59
  Michelle: Will you pull us a card?
• 35:00
  Danyelle: I will.
• 35:11
  Danyelle: I want it to be so tender.
• 35:13
  Danyelle: Oh, interesting.
• 35:15
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 35:16
  Danyelle: Um, all right.
• 35:17
  Danyelle: I will name, we're getting a lot of knights.
• 35:20
  Danyelle: Yes, which is really sweet.
• 35:22
  Danyelle: Um we can cut this part out for the um I can't think of what it's called.
• 35:31
  Danyelle: The words are post, the real.
• 35:35
  Danyelle: We've been getting a lot of knights, and I love this because the way that I see the court cards is like the page is the young, some of the youngest energy, elementary school, knight is like 18 to 30, king is like early adulthood, queen is eldership.
• 35:57
  Michelle: It's not the reverse, it's not queen and then king.
• 36:00
  Danyelle: Not in my world.
• 36:01
  Michelle: Oh, hey yo.
• 36:04
  Danyelle: And we're in our night phase.
• 36:07
  Danyelle: Like we're in this phase of we're not discovering and learning.
• 36:11
  Danyelle: I mean, we are, but in a different way.
• 36:13
  Danyelle: We're putting things into practice, we're shifting the way that we do things because we've learned, because we did the digging and all of that, the discovery.
• 36:22
  Danyelle: And so I love that.
• 36:24
  Danyelle: It's another night.
• 36:25
  Danyelle: The night of wands is all about charging forth, being on a journey.
• 36:33
  Danyelle: All night energy is about being on a journey.
• 36:36
  Danyelle: And so wands is connected to the element fire.
• 36:39
  Danyelle: It this is a doing card.
• 36:41
  Danyelle: This is a very momentum, momentous go be with the wind, very fire horse energy.
• 36:51
  Michelle: Perfect for 2026.
• 36:52
  Danyelle: Yep, yep.
• 36:53
  Danyelle: The Knight of Wands is charging in a little reckless, a little wild, you know.
• 37:02
  Danyelle: I would say it's closer to the 18 than the 30.
• 37:05
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 37:06
  Danyelle: And it is about the communication with self.
• 37:11
  Danyelle: How are you knowing you're bringing a little bit of some frantic energy or some hectic, chaotic energy?
• 37:17
  Danyelle: How are you pulling that in and knowing what is what is happening?
• 37:20
  Danyelle: How are you being aware?
• 37:22
  Danyelle: When I think about it as it relates to being a good friend to yourself, there is this just this card alone is internal work.
• 37:30
  Danyelle: You're on the journey, you're charging in, but you're also needing to pay attention to what's happening inside of yourself.
• 37:38
  Danyelle: If we think about the horse as the internal and the knight as the external, if we're not talking to the two, if there's not communication between the two, how do you know where you're going?
• 37:49
  Danyelle: And I think this episode is really talking about that.
• 37:52
  Danyelle: How do we know where we're going in platonic love if we're not doing that internal work for ourselves?
• 37:58
  Danyelle: And so this Knight of Wands to me is that invitation of, yeah, go forth, be in it.
• 38:04
  Danyelle: And, you know, I talked about it with a little bit of like chaos energy.
• 38:08
  Danyelle: And it is the it can be, you know, fiery, but with awareness, with a pause and a reframe, with a slowing down to understand why you're moving fast.
• 38:26
  Danyelle: And I think that is a big part of the fire horse.
• 38:28
  Danyelle: So yeah, the Knight of Wands is an invitation to continue to do that inner work for yourself.
• 38:35
  Danyelle: And it's like, get to it.
• 38:37
  Danyelle: Go get our workbooks.
• 38:39
  Danyelle: Send this podcast to a friend that you've been needing to have a conversation with.
• 38:43
  Danyelle: This energy is due.
• 38:48
  Michelle: You heard it here first.
• 38:50
  Michelle: You heard it here first.
• 38:52
  Michelle: Slow down, you move too fast.
• 38:55
  Michelle: Okay.
• 38:55
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 38:56
  Michelle: On that note, we'll see you next week.
• 38:58
  Michelle: Bye now.
• 39:00
  Danyelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 39:04
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 39:12
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 39:15
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 39:23
  Danyelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 39:25
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 39:30
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.