Latest / eCommerce Podcast / The Mistakes Killing Small Brands on Amazon in 2025 and How to Avoid Them | Will Haire

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The Mistakes Killing Small Brands on Amazon in 2025 and How to Avoid Them | Will Haire · eCommerce Podcast

0:01
Matt Edmundson: Welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with
0:03
me, your host, Matt Edmundson.
0:04
This is a show all about helping you deliver ecommerce.
0:09
Wow.
0:10
And to help me do just that today, we're chatting with Will
0:15
Hare from Bellevix about how we do advertising on marketplace
0:21
platforms like Amazon.
0:22
Yes, we are.
0:24
And we were just chatting, actually.
0:25
That's why he called me mid laughing when we
0:26
started the recording.
0:28
Uh, it turns out he's from Raleigh, North Carolina,
0:30
which I think Colby Flood is from, uh, there.
0:33
So I've just introduced those two.
0:34
If you're from Raleigh, North Carolina, give him a shout out.
0:37
Uh, Colby was on the podcast a while ago, actually,
0:41
uh, Facebook ads a long time ago, but, um, yeah,
0:43
go listen to that episode.
0:44
It was great as well.
0:45
Now, before we get into it, let me do the usual newsletter.
0:50
If you haven't done so already, go to ecommercepodcast.net.
0:53
Come join our newsletter community.
0:55
As we always give more in the newsletter and extra insights
0:59
and all that sort of stuff.
1:00
And you'll love it.
1:01
You're going to get a lot out of it.
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1:05
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Just go ahead.
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Uh, we'll see you over there.
1:19
eCommerce Podcast.
1:20
net right now.
1:21
Let's talk about Will, the ecommerce wizard and co founder
1:24
of Belovix who's been helping brands crush it on Amazon and
1:29
Walmart marketplace for over.
1:31
A decade.
1:32
The digital marketing virtuoso has turned Belovix into a
1:37
powerhouse agency by mastering the art of marketplace
1:41
strategy and showing brands how to turn their online
1:44
presence into pure gold.
1:46
Yes, he has.
1:47
Well, welcome to the show, man.
1:49
Great to have you.
1:49
How are you doing today?
1:50
Doing great, man.
1:51
Living the dream.
1:52
And that is quite the intro.
1:53
Will Haire: Matter of fact, I think we can just
1:55
end the interview here.
1:56
Uh, I'll be signing off.
1:58
That was wonderful.
1:59
Matt Edmundson: Living the dream.
2:00
Yeah, I, we, um, my brother and I. I'm sure we're not the only
2:05
people on the planet to do this.
2:06
We have abbreviated it to LTD. So when I call my brother,
2:10
I'm like, how you doing, bro?
2:11
He's like LTD. Cause we just can't be bothered to say live in
2:13
Will Haire: the dream.
2:13
Live in the dream.
2:14
Yeah.
2:15
Very military phrase.
2:17
Yeah.
2:19
Matt Edmundson: A little bit.
2:19
And then also in the UK, LTD, um, means limited company.
2:24
So it's uh, it's it's also a sort of a legal entity,
2:28
but I I just boring.
2:29
I don't know why you've mentioned it We
2:32
should change that yeah
2:34
Will Haire: Yeah,
2:38
Matt Edmundson: absolutely, absolutely, so how come
2:40
you live in the dream man
2:43
Will Haire: I'm honestly truly blessed.
2:44
I, uh, I run a boutique agency.
2:47
We help brands, um, scale on marketplaces and I
2:50
get to work with a lot of entrepreneurs like, uh, like
2:53
myself, where we're kind of all over the place, but we're
2:55
passionate about one thing.
2:57
In my case, it's helping these brands, but these brands.
3:00
Solve problems and supplement.
3:01
They solve problems in beauty, electronic space,
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pet space, and they're fun.
3:06
They're inventive.
3:07
Sometimes they're eccentric, but like interesting people
3:10
tend to be eccentric.
3:11
So with that being said, my days are never the same.
3:14
I get to have great conversations with people like
3:16
you met and share kind of what we've learned on the journey.
3:18
We don't have everything down that it was a
3:20
great introduction, but we're always learning.
3:23
And as you, as you know, being in the ecommerce
3:25
space, dude, things change.
3:27
Like crazy.
3:28
Amazon did not operate the same way it did last year
3:31
and with AI coming in like it's just changing so fast.
3:35
So for somebody like me who loves to chase the shiny object,
3:38
I haven't stopped running.
3:41
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it is so true and I think The thing
3:46
that I've noticed is the people that stop learning,
3:49
who feel like they've got it, they're not the ones that
3:51
are around after a while.
3:53
Um, because it just, it does change so much, um,
3:57
the space in, in many ways.
4:00
Uh, there's always new things to think about, nuances.
4:04
And I think competition's an interesting one, isn't it?
4:06
You know, you, you, you, especially with
4:08
places like Amazon.
4:10
Um, and Walmart, which I know you, you specialize in, um,
4:14
it feels like, and, and we'll correct me if I'm wrong here,
4:18
but it, it kind of feels like Amazon is a lot more competitive
4:24
than it has ever been.
4:26
Yeah.
4:26
If you want to get on there and start selling
4:28
stuff, it's no longer a case of I can put it on.
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I'll sell a million of these because there's a hundred
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thousand other people importing the same products
4:35
or doing something and trying to get that space.
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So, which is why it's great to have you on the show.
4:41
Cause I want to talk about this.
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I want to talk about how we as entrepreneurs of ecommerce
4:48
businesses, probably doing some stuff on Amazon.
4:51
Um, how do we compete?
4:52
How do we, where do we start, um, in 2025?
4:55
Will Haire: Yeah, it's, uh, it's very competitive and
4:58
to your point, like gone are the days where you could just
5:01
list the product in a niche category and nobody's there.
5:05
Like the, it's just, it does.
5:07
It happens rarely.
5:08
So rarely, like we don't really see it as much as an
5:11
agency, but how do we compete?
5:13
It's omnichannel presence in all transparency.
5:16
Amazon is only a piece of the puzzle, but we know behavior
5:20
On social media behavior on your website, how you engage
5:25
influencers and affiliates, they all spill over at the end of the
5:28
day, Amazon has done a really good job of building a platform
5:31
that has consumer trust.
5:33
People go on there.
5:34
They're going to read the reviews.
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If they can't find your product, it's kind of a red flag.
5:38
Like, Oh, is it, is it even safe to buy?
5:40
And even worse are the brands that, uh, just let their, their
5:44
affiliates run, run the show.
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It's like, uh, you know, uh, the, I don't know, the
5:50
criminals running the asylum.
5:52
That's the wrong analogy, but.
5:54
Uh, that's what it is.
5:55
So, uh, it's competitive and how do you get ahead?
5:58
It's, it's marketing and brand building is a big part of it.
6:01
And I wish it all happened on Amazon, but it doesn't,
6:04
but Amazon is a piece.
6:06
There is some building that goes on, but it's
6:08
a pay to play platform.
6:10
So a lot of what we'll do and what we'll probably talk
6:13
about is, um, how advertising plays and how retail media has
6:17
changed over the last few years.
6:20
Matt Edmundson: And that's the big thing now, isn't it?
6:21
With Amazon, you've, you've got to pay to play.
6:23
And I think.
6:25
The thing that I've noticed, uh, I mean, just to come back
6:29
to something that you said, actually, and, and I run an
6:32
e com company, run several e com companies, as I've
6:35
mentioned, one of which, uh, we do, we do okay on Amazon.
6:40
I mean, we're not breaking any records.
6:41
Um, but the thing that I've noticed with Amazon is, um,
6:45
that famous phrase, a rising tide floats all boats, right?
6:48
Yeah.
6:49
So the more I sell on the website, the more I seem to
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sell on Amazon, the more I sell on Amazon, the more I
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seem to sell on the website.
6:55
The more I do stuff over here, do you mean it, it,
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it, my fear was with Amazon, if I start on that platform,
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I'm sending people who would have come to my website.
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So I would have known who the customer was.
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And then my margin, obviously on my own website is significantly
7:10
higher than Amazon.
7:12
Um, but that doesn't seem to have.
7:16
I mean, obviously if someone buys from Amazon, they're
7:18
obviously not buying from my website, but the people that
7:20
buy from Amazon, I don't know who they are, but I'm kind of
7:23
guessing they don't, don't, they wouldn't have known
7:26
about us anyway, you know?
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And so you, you kind of create that sense of brand awareness.
7:30
I don't know if that's what you find, you know,
7:32
this sort of this rising tide floats all boats idea.
7:35
Will Haire: Absolutely.
7:35
It kind of hits into what I was talking before and what,
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what my hypothesis, and I read this in, um, man, modern retail
7:43
published an article recently on it, um, and essentially
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like, uh, consumers value, convenience, uh, not only is it
7:49
trusting, but it is convenient two day shipping, perhaps
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some of the same day shipping, which is insane, like the
7:54
logistical network and Amazon build and the trust, like.
7:58
It's part of people are willing to pay extra to get
8:00
something in a day or two.
8:02
But yeah, the margins with all the fee hikes the last year,
8:05
I mean, it's, it's borderline criminal, uh, but you know,
8:09
it's the cost of operating and there's never, you know,
8:13
cannibalization of, of sales.
8:15
Sure.
8:16
It can happen to some degree.
8:17
Like it's really hard to get somebody to do a behavior,
8:20
like taking them from Facebook and moving them to Amazon.
8:22
You're just going to naturally.
8:24
Lose people as there's more steps in the process.
8:27
Um, but they, to your point, they will find their way
8:30
there, whether they're just checking it or seeing the
8:33
better shipping times or all these other, um, considerations
8:38
when they're, when they're on that purchasing journey.
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Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's, it is definitely a different
8:44
place to, to what it was when it sort of first started out
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with this sort of, you know, where you could sell stuff
8:49
on Amazon, but I'm intrigued.
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You know, like you say, the fees have increased, the
8:54
costs of selling on Amazon are really quite high.
8:59
So we had a beauty business for the longest time, and
9:04
one of our best selling products on that website had
9:08
a 16 percent gross margin.
9:09
Right.
9:10
Okay.
9:10
So there was no way you would've been able to
9:13
sell that on Amazon?
9:13
Not on, no way.
9:14
Not on, so the, the products you sell on Amazon have to
9:17
have really high gross margins to be able to afford their
9:20
fees and how that works.
9:22
So what I've tended to notice is there then has
9:26
been a a, a slight move.
9:30
On the products on Amazon, and I don't know if I'm sure
9:33
Amazon are aware of this.
9:34
I'm sure they have plans for it, and I'm sure, um, it's maybe
9:37
me just going slightly nuts.
9:39
So the products that you find on Amazon more and more
9:42
tend to be products that have higher margins built into them.
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So you get a lot of the, uh, the Chinese products on, you know,
9:49
sort of people buying stuff from China import and trying to
9:52
sell it at a reasonable price.
9:54
I'm not having an issue with that.
9:55
This is just what I've noticed, for example.
9:58
Um, is that me just going, Crazy or is that, do you
10:03
see that actually happening?
10:04
Will Haire: No, you're absolutely right.
10:05
Actually, we recently lost a supplement brand
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for that same reason.
10:09
Uh, the woman manufactured herself, you know,
10:11
we were doing good.
10:11
She was a seven figure brand on Amazon, but her margins were
10:14
tight on all their products.
10:16
She, uh, was really conscious of her customer, didn't
10:20
want to raise prices.
10:21
And then Amazon has the fair pricing policy.
10:23
So she couldn't have higher prices on Amazon.
10:26
And not our website.
10:27
And so what we ended up doing is taking her products
10:30
and doing fulfilled by merchant, which helped cause
10:32
it cut her, her, uh, her fees in half, give or take.
10:36
Um, but at the end of the day, she ended up leaving us because
10:38
the margins couldn't support it.
10:39
So even on the, the service side, like
10:42
we're conscious of it.
10:43
If you don't have, you know, at least 50 percent margin, gross
10:46
margin on your products, like with agency fees, with Amazon's
10:51
fees, like it's probably not going to be a good fit.
10:55
And that's just kind of right now.
10:56
That's just the way it is.
10:57
I'm hoping that, um, there'll be some pushback, but I
11:01
also think to some degree, they're phasing out some
11:03
of the smaller businesses.
11:04
Um, and they're making it difficult for some of
11:07
these brands to come on.
11:08
So I think slowly Amazon's transitioning to more
11:12
for established brands.
11:14
Um, and that's just kind of the, the lay of
11:16
the land at the moment.
11:18
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
11:19
And I, I'm intrigued how that works, you know, like,
11:23
um, it, it means that, like, for example, you take a TV.
11:28
Will Haire: Um,
11:29
Matt Edmundson: I know full well what the, I know what
11:31
margins are on TVs when they're sold in store and
11:33
they're not great, right?
11:34
These guys aren't, they're not making massive amounts of money.
11:37
So they can't then go and sell those on Amazon, but
11:39
the manufacturer can, right?
11:41
And so Amazon then goes and makes a deal with Samsung.
11:44
So right, put your TVs on, on here.
11:46
Um, and And they sort of start selling those TVs,
11:51
which, which I find, I find quite fascinating.
11:55
So that I think this is, this will be another shift, won't it?
11:58
Amazon will go more and more to the brand.
11:59
So if, if you are an ecommerce business selling other
12:02
people's products, I think.
12:05
More and more, you might find Amazon difficult if
12:08
you are selling your own manufactured product with
12:11
a high gross margin, then Amazon, I think, is still
12:14
quite an interesting place.
12:15
So we, like the lady that left, we have a supplement
12:17
brand, for example.
12:19
So I understand the margins and supplements.
12:21
Um, and I understand the niche that we operate in and actually
12:25
Amazon is good for that, you know, and, and, and at the
12:28
moment it still works, but I'm not holding my breath that
12:31
it will be like that forever.
12:33
Um, so in the meantime, um, I mean, all that caveat said, um.
12:40
I am on Amazon.
12:40
How do I kill it?
12:41
How do I kill it on Amazon?
12:42
Well, what do I do?
12:44
Will Haire: Yeah, so there's a lot and just to kind of, uh, put
12:47
a bow on what you just commented on, like we primarily work
12:50
with brands, uh, a reseller, um, you know, uh, business
12:56
model, like it does exist.
12:58
I, I'm friends with a Canadian company that like all they do.
13:02
Is buy and resell products.
13:03
I think it will still exist to some degree, um, like
13:07
commodity type products where like people don't
13:09
really care about the brand.
13:10
They just want to get nails super cheap or
13:13
something like that.
13:14
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
13:14
Will Haire: Um, so it's still exist.
13:16
Um, it's just getting more difficult.
13:18
And I do think there's other platforms that, you know,
13:21
Timu and Sheen outside of the political stuff that's
13:24
going on, uh, is great platform for cost, uh, low.
13:29
Quality, low price products, uh, and there's a market for it.
13:33
People are always going to want cheap to some degree.
13:35
Um, so there is shifting consumer behavior and
13:38
as a result, there'll be shifts in how sellers,
13:41
uh, reach their audiences.
13:43
Um, kind of jump into what you were saying.
13:45
So how do we scale on, on Amazon?
13:47
It's definitely marketing and advertising.
13:50
And I'll talk like, um, at Bellavix, we use like
13:53
a bottom up approach.
13:54
So, um, everybody knows the, the user intent funnel.
13:58
So, you know, when we start advertising with the brand, you
14:02
know, we do want to make sure we occupy, we defend listings and
14:05
that we have a brand presence for advertising and it'll vary.
14:09
Some companies don't want to invest them much.
14:11
So they might be like, Hey, 10%, don't spend more than 10%.
14:15
Or I only want to invest when it's a 10 ROAS on branded.
14:19
I don't want to pay for customers that are already
14:21
customers and fine.
14:22
That makes sense.
14:23
And then a lot of what we'll focus on until a
14:26
brand's about a hundred thousand dollars a month.
14:28
Is getting people in consideration.
14:30
So remarketing using display advertising, uh, conquesting
14:35
going after competitors, uh, having a presence for
14:38
relevant search terms and kind of building that up.
14:41
And that's kind of the bottom of pro up.
14:43
And then when we get to a point where you got about a
14:47
hundred K a month in sales, turning on something like
14:50
programmatic advertising, uh, tends to be effective
14:53
and gives us the ability on Amazon to build audiences.
14:56
A lot of your, uh, listeners may be rolling their eyes.
14:59
I've tried it.
15:00
It didn't work depends how you use it.
15:02
Um, so a lot of times when we get started, we'll build
15:05
remarketing funnels and we'll go pretty heavy, um,
15:08
after competitors and just see what that row as is.
15:12
We also do some streaming TV, but that is a top of the funnel
15:16
and kind of a longer play before you actually see any type of
15:19
brand lift and Amazon will pull some brand lift reports.
15:22
I know some of our software like tech metrics, we'll
15:25
be able to kind of get.
15:27
That information too.
15:29
Um, so it really depends the size of the brand and
15:31
kind of what your goals are.
15:32
And what we found, and we don't do this, we work with agencies
15:36
that assist, um, but you may get a better return as opposed to
15:41
turning on DSP, doing meta ads, uh, working with influencers
15:46
tends to work really well.
15:47
We do a little bit of affiliate marketing with Levante and
15:51
stacked influence, and those tend to be pretty good if
15:54
we drive them to Amazon.
15:56
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
15:57
Will Haire: Indirectly, we get sales velocity.
16:00
We'll get more reviews when people buy them.
16:03
They tend to be in a better mood than Vine
16:04
program buyers because they generally get free products.
16:08
Um, and they'll share user generated content.
16:11
And user generated content in advertising happens
16:14
to work really well.
16:15
We actually have a case study that's being published on the
16:17
site now that shows that user generated content has better
16:21
conversion rates than something that's like traditionally.
16:24
Uh, built using a studio and I'm personally convinced
16:27
it's cause we're all on Instagram and tech talk.
16:31
And we just become accustomed to like discovering
16:34
products this way.
16:35
So it's very natural and.
16:37
Native, uh, to use advertising terms.
16:40
Matt Edmundson: Uh, well, jeez, there's a lot there, but
16:42
Will Haire: Yeah.
16:43
Matt Edmundson: Let's, um, let, for those that might
16:45
not know, let's define a few terms if we can.
16:48
What is programmatic advertising?
16:50
Will Haire: Yeah, programmatic is, uh, on Amazon demand side
16:53
platform, but pretty much just display advertising.
16:56
It's our ability to target customers on and off the
16:59
platform based on intent, contextual behavior, or how
17:02
they engage products, uh, and the Amazon platform.
17:06
Matt Edmundson: Okay, and you wouldn't do
17:09
programmatic advertising for someone that turns over
17:12
less than 100k a month?
17:13
Will Haire: Yeah, I mean, uh, it varies based on category,
17:16
but between 70 to 100k is generally where we turn it on.
17:19
Uh, we should be able to use pay per click and some of
17:22
these off Amazon methodologies will get you there.
17:25
In terms of brand building, DSP is not a ROAS driving
17:29
machine, which is why what you mean by DSP, uh, demand,
17:34
uh, programmatic advertising.
17:35
So it's referred to as Amazon DSP.
17:38
Um, so forgive me using all these acronyms.
17:41
I'm brainwashed by the Amazon machine.
17:45
Matt Edmundson: That's fair play.
17:46
I just, I'm aware that we ecommerce probably more than any
17:49
other industry I've come across uses three letter acronyms.
17:53
And so I feel like.
17:54
It's my quest in life just to get people to qualify
17:57
what they mean because what I, what I understand by
18:00
various things and what other people understand by various
18:02
things can be very different.
18:03
Um, so if I, let's, let's deal with the smaller brands
18:07
first and let's talk about strategies for them then.
18:09
So I'm turning over, I don't know, 10, 20, 30, 40
18:12
grand a month on, on Amazon.
18:14
I'm a sort of a smaller chap for better expression.
18:18
What sort of strategies then should I be focusing on?
18:22
So I, I need to maybe look at.
18:24
You talked about using meta, for example, and
18:27
user generated content to drive traffic to Amazon.
18:32
And this, again, you used a phrase sales velocity,
18:34
which I know is a very important thing on Amazon.
18:36
But talk about that and how that might work a little bit in
18:39
more detail, if you don't mind.
18:41
Will Haire: Yeah.
18:41
So typically when we see brands driving off Amazon
18:44
traffic, we would use something like Amazon attribution.
18:47
I think they changed the name, but I'm going to go with
18:49
attribution because that's how I refer to it, but it's
18:51
our ability to use these URLs so we could track behavior.
18:55
And we would want every unique campaign to have a unique URL
18:58
so we can measure the impact.
19:00
Like the toughest thing about Amazon is that
19:03
it's, it's a black box.
19:04
So therefore.
19:05
You know, if I'm driving traffic into this black box, I may not
19:08
know which campaigns perform.
19:10
It also doesn't communicate back to Meta, to Google, to
19:13
really any of these platforms.
19:15
So first things first is you're going to want an
19:17
infrastructure in place where you can get some measurements.
19:20
That can, you can feed to your, your advertising
19:23
team, whoever that is.
19:25
So they know these campaigns are working.
19:27
These attributes are working.
19:29
And then on Amazon, I don't like using skag
19:32
single keyword ad groups.
19:34
Um, and I'm talking more Google than meta right now.
19:37
Uh, but in the instance where we're driving traffic to, uh,
19:41
Amazon, I am a big proponent of this cause I do believe that it
19:45
gives us better insights into what's working and what's not.
19:48
I've.
19:49
Heard of brands using like Zon Guru, I think, and
19:52
other software, um, that somehow patches it together.
19:57
I'm, um, uh, a little hesitant to believe how accurate that is.
20:01
Um, so for the most part, I'd rather use Amazon
20:04
attribution and measure it.
20:05
And generally the conversion rate is not going to be, um,
20:09
as great as it is advertising directly on the platform.
20:15
Matt Edmundson: So the.
20:16
I guess the key question that someone's going to have
20:19
is, why would I, if I have my Google ads budget, um, a
20:25
thousand pounds or thousand bucks this month, whatever it
20:27
is, why would I use that to send traffic to Amazon versus
20:31
sending traffic to my website?
20:34
Will Haire: So Amazon has something called the
20:36
halo effect, and this is a really good question.
20:38
I get this all the time when I talk to brands.
20:41
Um, so when I mentioned, uh, earlier, their sales velocity
20:45
is like the number one KPI.
20:47
So if you could demonstrate to Amazon that this product sells
20:50
and that's done through sales per month or a given period of
20:54
time, then you'll technically rank better organically.
20:57
And we have some older case studies where we prove this
20:59
out using Google ads and stuff.
21:02
And the lift will vary, um, depending on the
21:04
category and the brand.
21:06
Um, and that is the main reason why it's like, if I know.
21:10
For this specific root keyword.
21:12
That's very relevant to my product.
21:15
Um, that the opportunity is like 10 million a month,
21:19
and I am doing a thousand dollars on that product.
21:22
Then I know that there's room for me.
21:24
So we may not want to do it all the time.
21:26
There is a point of diminishing returns, but to get the gears
21:29
going to kind of show Amazon that there is opportunity there,
21:33
that's the reason to do it.
21:35
And all transparency, I don't recommend driving
21:37
the entire budget.
21:38
Uh, I like to do like 10 to 20 percent of your
21:41
budget to just go over.
21:42
And I like to start with keyword queries that have Amazon in it.
21:46
So in your case, you sold the supplement.
21:48
So if it's a whey protein, people will go to Google and
21:50
be like, whey protein, Amazon, because we're lazy and why not?
21:54
And so like those are low hanging fruit that the intent
21:57
is already to buy it on Amazon.
21:59
So putting some ad dollars behind that makes sense.
22:02
I wouldn't do any branded.
22:04
I think at the end of the day, the value is
22:05
acquiring new customers.
22:07
So if I was building keywords or audiences that wasn't
22:11
remarketing, uh, I would direct those, um, those shoppers
22:16
towards my Amazon store.
22:17
And I like driving to the storefront versus the
22:21
product detail page because the storefront doesn't have
22:25
ads from your competitors.
22:26
You could showcase your unique selling proposition and
22:29
get a look and feel for the brand and build that trust.
22:32
As opposed when you drive to a product detail page,
22:34
uh, like myself, it's like, Oh, this is great.
22:37
Ooh, this is better.
22:38
Click, click, click, click.
22:40
Before you know, you paid to drive traffic to somebody else's
22:43
Matt Edmundson: store.
22:43
That's part of the problem, I suppose, with Amazon, isn't it?
22:46
So sorry, just a bit, just to clarify, if I'm running ads, I
22:51
liked your whey protein Amazon.
22:53
That makes a lot of sense.
22:55
Um, and I, I, I, so I, I'm a whey protein company.
22:59
They've not put in strawberry, they've not put in the size.
23:01
It's just sort of a general thing.
23:03
You're going to send them to the storefront, my whey
23:06
protein storefront in effect, um, rather than a specific
23:10
whey protein product.
23:11
Yep.
23:12
Um, if they put in the search a, a specific product, do
23:17
you still send them to the storefront page or do you send
23:20
them to that specific product?
23:22
Will Haire: I would continue driving to the storefront
23:24
just because I'm very conscious of other people,
23:27
uh, conquesting on us.
23:28
Cause like it's a common advertising tactic and
23:31
brands love when you steal audience from bigger brands.
23:35
So generally, cause your storefront page should
23:37
showcase all the products.
23:39
If it's done right, they should be able to add it to cart.
23:41
So they'll see the product that they're actually looking for.
23:44
And there's not really an act.
23:45
I mean, technically, yes, there's an extra step.
23:48
Click to add to cart, but, um, they're going to do
23:50
the same thing if you drive them to that Amazon listing.
23:53
So I would recommend just driving to the storefront.
23:57
Matt Edmundson: And so along, so alongside this,
23:59
are you doing ads on Amazon or are you just using metal
24:03
Google to drive traffic?
24:05
Will Haire: Yeah.
24:06
I mean, when we start with the brand, we primarily
24:08
start with pay per click.
24:09
Um, and we'll do the bottom, you know, automatic campaigns
24:12
like everyone else for keyword harvesting, and then kind of.
24:15
Once we get some data, we'll launch some manual campaigns.
24:18
We also do keyword research.
24:19
So we'll, you know, if it's a new to market product,
24:22
we'll, we'll start with smaller ad groups to kind
24:25
of train the algorithm.
24:26
If it's a product that's been around, then we're just
24:28
going to optimize, launch some additional campaigns.
24:31
But PPC is definitely where to start.
24:35
And if we want to talk about like low costs, cause
24:36
you mentioned like if this brand's under 20 to 30, 000,
24:40
let's just assume that they don't have great reviews.
24:42
You know, they may have great rating, but the quantity.
24:45
Yeah, those reviews may not be competitive.
24:47
Like whey protein is, uh, is competitive, you know, there's,
24:51
there's listings with thousands of, cause whey proteins
24:54
been around for a while.
24:56
Um, so we're big fans of like brand tailored promotions,
24:59
which is our ability to offer discounts to audiences, uh,
25:03
with specific intent models.
25:05
So like, uh, somebody who's.
25:07
Uh, purchased from you in the last year or somebody
25:11
who's high risk of leaving.
25:12
Cause they haven't, they purchased in the past, but
25:14
haven't purchased lately.
25:15
Um, we could conquest abandoned cart, which is
25:18
like low hanging fruit.
25:20
These are all audiences and you could pepper them with as
25:22
little, I believe as little as a 5 percent discount,
25:25
um, but these are people that have shown intent.
25:28
Uh, another great program that's cost effective is
25:32
Amazon's creator connections.
25:34
It's a relatively new program and.
25:37
It should be well, if it hasn't already, it is being
25:40
rolled out according to our Amazon resources to the
25:43
entire Amazon ecosystem,
25:45
Matt Edmundson: right?
25:46
Will Haire: It's your ability to it's your ability to
25:48
work with Amazon associates.
25:50
And these are, uh, affiliates influencers, if you will,
25:53
who will buy your product for some type of commission, you
25:56
don't even have to offer a sample and they'll promote it
25:58
on their LinkedIn or their, excuse me, on their social
26:02
media, wherever that is.
26:03
But we've gotten brands into, uh, articles, uh,
26:07
which help with SEO.
26:09
Um, you know, top 10 supplements of 2025, uh, as
26:13
well as some micro influencers that have done really well.
26:16
And they'll end up putting that on their storefront.
26:19
So then you start getting presence in other places
26:22
for customers to discover.
26:24
Um, that tends to be pretty effective.
26:26
So those are two low hanging fruit that, you know,
26:29
come to mind off the bat that can drive sales and
26:31
their performance based.
26:32
Matt Edmundson: So the, sorry, the, the name of the new feature
26:35
on Amazon, uh, again, was.
26:37
Will Haire: Uh, creator connections,
26:38
Matt Edmundson: creator connections.
26:39
Yeah.
26:40
So, um, for the longest time, uh, there's been
26:45
Amazon associates, right?
26:48
Um, is that all right?
26:50
Or you just dropped your coat?
26:50
Okay.
26:51
I just dropped my cup.
26:51
Will Haire: I'm sorry.
26:52
I didn't hear what you said.
26:53
I apologize.
26:54
Matt Edmundson: No, no problem.
26:55
So for the longest time on Amazon, we've had like, um,
26:59
We've had the affiliate thing, haven't we, Amazon Associates?
27:02
I have an Amazon Associate link, which I set up,
27:06
I don't know, 1973.
27:08
I don't think I've ever used it, but I think
27:10
there's something there.
27:11
Um,
27:14
with this new creator connections, are they
27:17
sort of revamping?
27:19
Amazon associates a little bit of they kind of gone.
27:21
This is a little bit outdated.
27:23
We need to update it here.
27:24
Will Haire: Yeah.
27:25
So the way it works, it's a dashboard inside of Amazon
27:28
that created connections.
27:29
You'll jump into it and essentially create
27:32
an influencer brief.
27:33
Like, Hey, you know, this is the product.
27:35
This is about it.
27:36
We're offering a 30, 20, 30 percent discount on all sales.
27:41
Um, they'll opt in, um, you'll get, it's a low volume
27:45
game, but you'll get these associates, they will purchase
27:47
the product through Amazon and they will create that
27:50
content, you'll have access to the content, you can use it
27:53
for your marketing purposes.
27:54
So it's very streamlined and I find that it works
27:57
better than, you know, like a Levanta, an Archer,
28:00
Phil, like some of these.
28:02
Platforms that already exist.
28:03
The caveat is, is like, you really don't have control
28:06
over who, who applies and how they get the product.
28:09
And also the volume is, is low.
28:12
Um, the ROAS is great.
28:14
You know, a ROAS is like 10 all the time, but like,
28:18
you know, in a given month for a brand that has some
28:21
popularity, you know, maybe 60 to 70, uh, of these affiliates
28:27
will actually participate.
28:30
Which is low.
28:31
And then, you know, some of them will buy the
28:33
product, but never post.
28:34
And all the issues that come when you're working with
28:36
some of these influencers.
28:38
Uh, but it's all contained on Amazon.
28:40
You just set it up and it runs itself.
28:42
And what we love about it, as long as the brands
28:45
don't have any restrictions with who they work with.
28:48
Um, what's nice is that it it's performance based.
28:52
So these people don't get paid unless they're moving products.
28:54
Yeah.
28:54
Um, so that's kind of the benefit.
28:57
Matt Edmundson: It's interesting that they're
28:58
revamping then the associates side of things, isn't it?
29:01
And, and actually affiliate marketing becomes a bit
29:03
more interesting rather than just taking whatever
29:05
it was, like one, 2 percent of the sales price.
29:07
Yeah.
29:08
Um, you can actually now go 10, 20, 30%, whatever the
29:11
brand believes on that product.
29:14
Yeah.
29:15
Um, which again, makes it a bit more interesting.
29:17
And I, I, I quite like that.
29:19
I wonder how many.
29:21
YouTubers out there that have done content on, you know, I
29:25
don't know, I, I'm just looking around my desk here, uh, the
29:28
Logitech, uh, MX master three mouse, um, and they go sign
29:34
up to this program and then just put that link in on their
29:36
YouTube or if you, is it a case of you have actually got to
29:39
buy the product for it to work?
29:42
Will Haire: Uh, they got the influencer has to buy
29:44
the product for it to work.
29:45
So, you know, you can give them samples and yeah, like if you
29:48
do samples, you get more volume.
29:51
Do the brands that we work with because the
29:53
quality of the influencer is all over the place.
29:57
Generally, we don't give away samples.
29:59
We'd rather be more aggressive on their commission, and
30:02
that's worked pretty well.
30:03
We start at 20%, but we've had brands go up to 50%, and
30:07
the higher that commission, the more volume we can get.
30:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:10
Um, but, you know,
30:12
Matt Edmundson: it's just a
30:12
Will Haire: crapshoot.
30:13
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting.
30:15
That's really interesting.
30:16
So that's then helpful for some of the smaller brands.
30:20
What are some of the tactics you've found for the guys
30:23
doing over 100 grand a month?
30:25
Will Haire: Love, I love programmatic.
30:27
So, uh, that's the, uh, the DSP, the display
30:29
advertising, the type of audience to be skin build.
30:33
So like cut out anything that might be like,
30:35
um, medical related.
30:38
So like we've worked with brands that help people
30:40
with diabetes and stuff like that, like a pregnancy.
30:43
We have HIPAA laws here.
30:45
So like targeting becomes very difficult.
30:48
And so we would recommend using like a connected TV, um,
30:52
mountains, a really good one, or another third party platform
30:55
to help those brands scale.
30:57
But for your typical brand that sells supplement or beauty
30:59
products, uh, it's great because we're able to build audiences.
31:03
So like.
31:04
What we have found is that a lot of people on Amazon will
31:08
just focus on like the bottom of the funnel, those, you know,
31:11
conquesting product searches and their brand and what happens
31:15
over time is like, to your point, competition, more people
31:18
come in, you know, everybody has an anti aging product
31:21
if they're selling beauty.
31:22
Um, so it's like, how do you differentiate yourself?
31:25
And how you do that effectively is by leveraging, uh,
31:28
programmatic and building these audiences that are a little
31:31
higher up in the funnel that are related to you by lifestyle.
31:36
They're related to you by their demographic, their shopping
31:39
behavior, their hobbies and interests and a great way
31:42
to get started, which a lot of people neglect is like.
31:45
You know, I don't know a website that doesn't have
31:46
Google analytics tied to it.
31:48
And Google analytics, if you go on the backend, they share this
31:51
information about the website audience, you can essentially
31:54
take that and use that to get started if you work with an
31:58
agency in the, um, advertising.
32:01
Uh, partner network, um, like Bellavix is, uh, we get
32:05
access to Amazon resources and they can pull information
32:08
and help us build, uh, some of these initial audiences.
32:11
And 1 of my favorite audiences that they're able to build,
32:15
it's called an overlap report.
32:17
And so they'll, they'll take the ASIN in question that
32:20
you're researching, and then they get a bunch of information
32:23
based on the current audience that goes there and they build
32:26
this report and the overlap of that report are like the
32:29
common interest that these.
32:31
Uh, shoppers have, and we turn those in the audiences and
32:35
surprisingly, we get pretty good engagement and we look
32:38
for a lift in sales over time.
32:40
So like, if you're going to start DSP.
32:42
You know, you want to run it at least for six months and
32:46
you want to focus like, you don't have to spend like, so
32:49
a brand that's conservative and starting with programmatic
32:52
advertising, 10 percent of your budget is enough for us
32:55
to at least do the remarketing.
32:58
Uh, typically what we recommend is 80, 20, 20
33:01
percent of your budget going to this and allowing us to.
33:04
Test some of these different audiences, but
33:06
the KPIs are different.
33:08
We're looking for impressions, product, detail,
33:10
views, uh, add to cart.
33:12
So it's like, it's, it's softer metrics, but we know
33:16
that over time and, you know, Amazon has the Kantar report,
33:20
uh, Ogilvy for any advertisers who, uh, follow that, like we
33:24
know exposure is how you get.
33:26
People to buy your product.
33:28
And so this exposure allows us to kind of
33:31
build those audiences.
33:32
And over time you will see a sales lift.
33:35
That's how we've taken brands from that a hundred
33:37
thousand dollars a month to three, 400, 000 a month.
33:41
Um, so it does work effectively and some categories do
33:45
really well and others don't.
33:46
So it's, um, you know, it's something that needs to be
33:49
measured and reacted on.
33:50
It's not something you just turn on and forget about.
33:53
There are some categories that it just.
33:55
It might not make sense.
33:56
Um, we've worked with some beauty brands that we've
33:59
tried to do this and we just, we never really saw the lift
34:03
we were looking for after about a year of doing this.
34:05
And so we, we stopped, they, they ended up using meta and
34:09
Google and, and it worked out well, and we still saw
34:13
sales increase, and then we just focused on what we can
34:15
do on the AMS side with PPC advertising, and there are
34:21
some brands that, you know, we're working with a supplement
34:23
brand now in the, the green fruits and green space that.
34:27
Uh, we shouldn't see this, but we see a 7 ROAS on
34:30
programmatic and we're mid, mid to bottom of the funnel.
34:34
And it's like, what's different about those products?
34:36
I mean, yeah, there's nuances that are different, but like
34:39
7, I, I can't explain it.
34:43
Matt Edmundson: But you enjoy it while it lasts.
34:45
Yeah, exactly.
34:46
And nothing
34:46
Will Haire: gold can stay.
34:47
Yeah, exactly.
34:48
Matt Edmundson: Absolutely.
34:49
I'm curious, why don't you do programmatic advertising
34:54
for companies that are saying doing 10, 000 a month?
34:57
Is it a budgetary issue or is it an access issue?
34:59
It's always
35:00
Will Haire: budgetary.
35:00
Yeah.
35:00
So like we've worked with some private equity brands
35:03
that have the budget and they also understand full funnel
35:06
marketing and advertising and they'll sign off on it.
35:09
They get it.
35:10
They're like, yeah, let's do commercials.
35:11
We want to get, we want to build our audiences.
35:14
But most of the time, the brands that come to me that
35:16
are doing 10 to 20, 000, they're, they're smaller.
35:20
A lot of times I'm working directly with the owner.
35:22
Um, and they're just, they're, they're closer to the money.
35:25
So therefore they're a lot more conscious of how it's spent and
35:29
they want to see that row as, and, and I get it, you know,
35:32
early on, it makes sense, you want every dollar to count and
35:36
therefore, when I talk about.
35:37
Mid and upper funnel.
35:38
And I share all these KPIs.
35:40
They're like, well, I spent a thousand dollars of my 3,
35:44
000 budget and I didn't see a sales lift in the first month.
35:48
So like in those situations, it's just.
35:50
It's not worth it.
35:51
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
35:52
Slightly untenable.
35:53
No.
35:53
Fair play.
35:54
Fair play.
35:55
What's, um, what's one thing about Amazon we should all
35:59
know heading into 2025 that maybe we don't know right now?
36:04
Will Haire: Yeah.
36:05
Maybe most
36:05
Matt Edmundson: people don't know.
36:06
Will Haire: Yeah.
36:07
AI is definitely taking over.
36:08
So as of now, Amazon updated the title restrictions and they're
36:12
cracking down on longer titles.
36:14
So, uh, as of January 21st, uh, they have taken everybody's
36:19
titles and they cut them on their own using AI.
36:22
What we have found with AI is that, oh man, it's painful.
36:26
Uh, when they rolled this out last year, they, uh, they
36:29
changed some of our titles and we didn't turn it off.
36:32
And they ended up getting some of our listings suspended with.
36:35
The titles that their AI recommended.
36:38
So what I'm saying is like a brace AI, it's
36:40
not changing anything.
36:41
Be conscious of your listing quality for sure.
36:44
Um, but understand that, um, it's, it's not going anywhere.
36:48
It's, you know, I feel bad for companies like get Tita,
36:51
the reimbursement software where like Amazon is baking
36:55
a lot of those features in, and I know they have
36:57
a partnership with the.
36:58
With companies like that.
36:59
So it's interesting to see what AI is going to be taken over.
37:04
Uh, and where the human part of this is like, it's always
37:08
going to be in the brand and it's always going to be in the
37:11
creative to some degree, but you know, where is it heading
37:14
in terms of advertising?
37:16
You know, are we going to get a version of G max on Amazon where
37:20
it's minimum human interaction?
37:22
You just set the ROAS and let it, let it do
37:25
its machine learning.
37:27
Um, so it's.
37:28
We're on the brink of something, uh, monumental and it'll
37:32
change how, you know, we as agencies, but also as sellers.
37:37
Engage with with marketplaces and how we operate on them.
37:42
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting.
37:43
So watch this space.
37:44
Uh, watch this space.
37:46
Well, listen, I am my question for you.
37:49
Well, no, actually it's that time where I remember
37:52
your question for me.
37:53
What's your question for me, which I'm going to
37:56
answer on social media.
37:57
What is it?
37:58
Will Haire: I want to know what's your most memorable
38:00
experience from living in Salisbury, North Carolina.
38:03
You shared a little bit about yourself and, uh,
38:06
North Carolina is now home.
38:08
So I would love to know what, what you remember most and
38:12
what you like most about North Carolina, because
38:14
this is where I call home and I really enjoy it here.
38:17
Matt Edmundson: Well, I will, I love North Carolina.
38:20
It's like my second home.
38:22
And, um, yeah, for those of you don't know, I used to live
38:24
in North Carolina for a little while, hence I have a slight.
38:27
When I say Carolina, I can't say Carolina like a British person.
38:30
It's Carolina.
38:31
And I don't know why it's very odd.
38:33
It's very, very odd.
38:35
Uh, so I will of course answer that question
38:37
over on social media.
38:38
Come follow me on LinkedIn at Matt Edmundson and you will find
38:42
me answering that question at some point, what I love most.
38:45
About North Carolina and I think everybody should go to
38:47
North Carolina at least once in their life And whilst i'm
38:50
not answering the question, you should also try cheer
38:52
wine while you're there.
38:53
Just want to put that
38:54
Will Haire: out
38:58
Matt Edmundson: Brilliant well listen had it's been
39:00
great talking to you man.
39:01
Thanks for coming on and sharing the um the insights I I see
39:05
that the sun is is coming out where you are because it's
39:08
shining into the lens a little bit You've got this angelic
39:10
glow going on um So if people want to reach out to you, if
39:15
they want to connect with you, the angel of Amazon, uh, how
39:19
do they, how do they do that?
39:21
Will Haire: Yeah.
39:21
Check me out on LinkedIn.
39:22
Will like, uh, Will Haire like on your head with an
39:25
E. Uh, I put out stuff every day to try to help sellers.
39:28
We're really in tune to the news and what goes on.
39:31
So follow me there and then check out our website if you're
39:33
interested, if you need support or need help, you know, we're
39:36
passionate, we're not a huge agency, but we like, um, we
39:39
like working with brands that have interesting challenges
39:41
and are, uh, our mission based.
39:44
So you can check us out at bellavix.com and Matt,
39:46
this was a lot of fun.
39:47
It was a really great conversation and great
39:49
getting to know you.
39:50
So thank you for having me on your show.
39:51
Matt Edmundson: No, it's been great, man.
39:52
Great.
39:53
If you, here's another three letter acronym.
39:55
Well, uh, what's your ICP, your ideal client profile?
39:59
Who do you work best with?
40:00
Will Haire: Go on.
40:01
We work with, uh, brands, uh, brands that own their trademark,
40:05
uh, and generally are doing at least a million dollars in
40:08
revenue because generally we can, they have a little bit
40:10
of an audience and they may be struggling on Amazon, so
40:13
we could help you guys get to that three, four, 5 million
40:16
range in a couple of years.
40:18
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.
40:19
We will of course link to Will's information in the
40:22
show notes, which just, if you're on an app, podcast app,
40:26
you don't even need to tell you to scroll down, they'll
40:27
be there or come on by the website, ecommercepodcast.net.
40:31
And of course, if you signed up to the newsletter.
40:34
It'll be in your inbox.
40:35
Just the way it works.
40:35
So, uh, that's, um, that's great.
40:38
Well, listen, man, thanks for coming on.
40:40
Absolutely loved it.
40:41
Let me do this.
40:42
Huge round of applause for Will.
40:43
Yes, there we go.
40:46
So there we go.
40:47
That's enough applause.
40:47
Don't want your head to get too big.
40:49
Uh, what a great conversation.
40:52
Uh, now be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast, wherever
40:55
you get your podcasts from, because we've got some more
40:57
great conversations lined up.
40:59
And I genuinely don't want you to miss any of them.
41:02
Uh, and in case no one has told you yet today,
41:03
let me be the first.
41:05
You are awesome.
41:06
Yes, you are created.
41:07
Awesome.
41:08
It's just a burden.
41:09
You have to bear.
41:10
Will has to bear it.
41:11
I've got to bear it.
41:13
You've got to bear it as well.
41:14
Now that eCommerce Podcast is produced by
41:17
the wonderful Podjunction.
41:18
com.
41:19
Uh, you can find our entire archive of episodes on
41:21
your favorite podcast app.
41:23
I think music was written by the magnificent.
41:26
Josh Edmundson.
41:27
And as I mentioned, if you'd like to read the transcript
41:29
or show notes, simply head over to the website,
41:31
ecommercepodcast.net.
41:34
But that's it from me.
41:36
That's it from Will.
41:37
Thank you so much for joining us.
41:39
Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.
41:41
I'll see you next time.
41:42
Bye for now.