Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / A tool to help you heal from your trauma #16

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A tool to help you heal from your trauma #16 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world is Free Therapy. Hello, Welcome to Free Therapy.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Hello. Hello, I'm Kevin.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I'm here with Benny ben Hey.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: And every week we sit down with a different therapist
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: to talk about the stuff that most guys are going
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: through but nobody's saying out loud. And this week Ben
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: agreed to do something that, Dude, I don't think many
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: people would do this and talk about the stuff you
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: get into in this episode because it's the really deep
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: stuff that most people try and hide.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: You brought in your.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Former therapist, Jessica Serber.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, Like, I haven't seen jess in over four years.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: She was my pandemic therapist. And yeah, so I haven't
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: gotten into much detail about this yet, but I had
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: cancer three time between the ages of eighteen and twenty four,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and right after I got better, I just suppressed it
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: for years. By the time I got to jess I
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: was thirty years old. I was at the lowest point
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: of my life, and when I learned from her would
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: really put me on the path of healing and acceptance
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: that I didn't think was possible and really just made
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: me the man I am today.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: We explore some of the practices and exercises taught you
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: to help you move through those feelings of pain and anger.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: And we also talked about how to support your friends
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: who were going through something like this. You know, I
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: knew you in college when you were getting chemotherapy, and
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I had no clue really what you were going through
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: the depth of it and how to support you, and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: so we talk about that as well.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really really was profound for me to be
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: in that room with Jess again, and I'm really really
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: happy that I did it. So let's start the show.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Hey Jess, Hey, it's so good to see you. It's
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: been Welcome to Free Therapy. Thank you.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Welcome to my favorite episode where we get to sit
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: down with Ben and his former therapist.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, guys, guess what this is my former therapist who
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I have actually never met in person.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we did it all. Oh, I didn't know that
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: we just met in person.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: She's my COVID therapist. Yeah wow yeah yeah, yeah that
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: was crazy.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah that was crazy therapist.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah yeah. When I was we were like starting
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: to book for this podcast, I was like, I told keV,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I was like, I wonder if my old therapist Jess
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: would would come on, and he goes, well, you should
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: reach out, and I was like okay, and I don't
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: know the email, but I was like very uh nervous
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: or I was like, how do I send this or
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: what do I say? Like would she do it? Why
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: wouldn't she? I didn't know, So I sent it. Your
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: response was like amazing.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, I was so happy to hear from you
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: because we worked together for a while, a couple of years,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: two or three. Yeah, and you don't often get to
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: like catch up with your old clients. Sometimes they come
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: back for check ins or maybe send an update, but
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: it's not that often. And you know, we worked together
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: for a long time and I wanted to know how
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: you were doing. So it's so cool to hear that
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: you're doing this.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I went through and read some notes before
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I take notes of it. I take notes for every
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: therapist I've ever had. I don't know, maybe that's some
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: of my perfectionism and OCD. Okay, so okay, so I'll
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: read some things. Oh I think it's like interesting, because
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I I but I just loved it.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: We're going to get to into your mind post therapy
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: sessions from like four years ago, right.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because I kind of remembered, well, I do
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: remember the stuff that we talked about because it was
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: my first introduction to I think therapy that I was
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: actually ready to do the work. I think oftentimes people
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: go to therapy and they're just like say they want
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: to do it, but again, maybe you're lying or omitting
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: things to your therapist that you're just like not willing.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: You were the first therapist that I saw where I
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm at rock bottom, like I need
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: help like now. So I was trying to remember like
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the specifics. Okay, So our first therapy session was May eighteenth,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: I had just fallen back from New York, right, and
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I vividly remember like coming back and I was like,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I think I was on anti depressants at the time
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: or something, and I was like, I don't want to
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: be on this shit anymore. So I got off of them.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: And my mom's like, well, if you get off of
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: your anti depressants, like you have to go into therapy.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: I was like great, She goes, are you ready to
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: do the work? And she's asked me that question for
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: since I beat cancer in like twenty twelve, and I
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: always said like yes, but I was. It was always
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: a no, like I would say, yes, I'm willing to
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: do the work and then do therapy, leave it. Moved
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: to New York, Like I never did the work and
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: so at this point, like I knew I had to.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: So I had just moved back from New York. I
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: was like I was done with a job that was
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: like terrible. I remember the job situation that was like crazy,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: and I was no longer living in New York. And
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: New York for me was like my first time leaving
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the world of cancer. Right like in La it was
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: oh Ben, you beat cancer three times. Oh Ben, you're
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: an inspiration, O Ben, Like you have a nonprofit. Like
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: I was put on this pedestal by my friends and family,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: not because they meant to, but I was just a
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: nice survivor story. And I think people wanted to feel
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: good and they tried to make me feel good. So
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: I felt this sense of responsibility. But going to New
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: York kind of gave me this world without cancer and
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: it was like the best year two years of my life.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Like if you know me, how much I talk about it,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: I love New York, but I don't think it was
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: New York. It was the fact that I didn't think
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: about cancer every day. And when I came back from LA,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I was like, what do I do without New York
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: now that I'm back in the pandemic, And it's like
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: all of this cancer is kind of back in my face.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: So then I got back into therapy.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean New York became this place where you
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: got to like discover a different identity than you were
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: used to embodying and people expected of you. Yeah, and
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: so yeah, I remember that transition back was really hard.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: I mean it was really disappointing for you to have
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: to be back.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I felt so much like shame and embarrassment
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: that I had worked so hard to get to a
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: point of building an identity without cancer that when I
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: came back to LA, that old identity started to consume
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: me again. But I think the blessing I've learned today
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: was like, now, I actually I may have never faced it.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I may have just like ran away from it my
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: entire life, or maybe it would have gotten worse as
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I got older. But because of the pandemic and because
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: of the job situation, I was kind of forced.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: To face it right, well face it, but then also
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: learn how to integrate that with the new right, because
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: obviously we can't compartmentalize who you are and leave certain
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: parts in New York and certain parts in LA. But
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: you had to figure out how you were going to
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: integrate it and become the person you are today.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sorry, this is such a trip right now because
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not in therapy, but I feel like I'm in therapy,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: so it's like, yeah, it's like bringing up a ton
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: of emotions because like, I don't know if you remember
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: it this way, but I vividly tell this story of
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: getting into therapy that I think I cried every week
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: for like ten months, Like I just remember crying every
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: single session, and it was like it was like it
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: was I wrote this down because I was going to
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: forget it, but I said, my bucket was so full
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: and it was over what I wrote to myself. My
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: bucket was so full and it was overflowing and it
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: was spilling over into hopelessness and despair. So we had
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: to put holes in the bucket, which I did with
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: anger to allow grief to actually come in and heal
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: from all of the pain. And it was like it
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: was just like showing up as as tears and anger
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: and you you were the first person who ever allowed
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: me to feel anger in a safe way, and it
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: completely healed me in a way that I'll like to
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: be forever grateful for because I just like I never
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: knew that you were allowed to be angry for something
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: like cancer or for something bad happening to you or
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: or whatever you were feeling. It just like allowed me
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: to like accept and love myself. And I had so
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: much shame and embarrassment.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: And so can you share, Like, maybe what were you
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: angry at at that time?
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I wrote a list of ten things that I
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: was angry about. And what's crazy is like you had
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: me write the list and then you had me write
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: letters to those things that made me angry. So I
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: journaled about all of these. Do you remember this?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: No?
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you were like deer and write it out wow.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: And I was like, I remember vividly crying writing these
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: letters and you had me write it and it was
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: like in June. So it was on my birthday, which
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: was even crazier that I was like, So I wrote
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: down a list I'll share. I mean a couple of
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: them were, like I was really angry at like all
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: the friends that I lost through the experience, Like I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: got really close to people and then some people kind
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: of just like did their own thing. I was really
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: angry that I got it three times. That was like
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: the biggest thing a lot of people. Most people don't
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: get cancer rare instances. You get it once, extremely rare instant.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: You get it twice. Unheard of. You get it three times.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: And that just like I'm better today about that, but
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I couldn't. I couldn't grasp the unluckiness. Just didn't make
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: sense to me. It was just like it was that
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: was like the worst not having a true college experience.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: I wrestled with that a lot, Like everyone who started
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: abroad or like didn't have to drive home for chemo
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: like whatever I had to do in college. I mean,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: like the fact that it made me sterile, right, Like
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I know that's like sounds like a crazy thing, but
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: like it just chemo does that. Like yes I'm sterile,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: and yes I have frozen eggs, and yes I'll have
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: eggs frozen sperm, and yes I'll have kids. But when
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you're when you're eighteen years old or nineteen years old,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: and you become sterile, like as a man, as a
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: sensitive man, I mean like, you just take everything from me,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: on top of chemo, on top of losing my hair,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: on top of not going to school, like I'm just
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: like the I'm in like I'm I'm isolated. That made
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: me angry, and then I think the the what if
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: was the worst was one of the worst, which is
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: like what I would have been without cancer? M Like,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: what would my life at that time? I had told
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: the story that my life would have been better had
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I not had cancer.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Fair I'm curious what it's like for you, as his
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: best friend, to hear this, hear what he was angry
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: about and the stuff he's dealing with inside.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it all makes sense. I think I've
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: known him through most of it. I guess I met
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: you when you were the last time, the last time,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: the third time. Yeah, I would be super fucking angry
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: those things too. It's stuff that I don't maybe think about.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I definitely, I'll say this only in the past couple
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: of years was I aware of most of this stuff
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: For most of our friendship. I mean, we were living
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: together when he was going through cancer the third time,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and I was mostly unaware of what was happening. You
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: were really good at hiding it. You were really good
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: at like just playing cool.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what I wanted that normal life. Yeah, I had
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: a girlfriend, I would party. I was like, don't don't
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: treat me different.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: And so I didn't really know. I mean, when I
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: look back, that's probably the craziest part when I look
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: back on that period of time and I go, fuck,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Like he was going through all of that and we
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: were just living in the same house.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: It was like five of us in the same I
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: remember that one story my mom brings up to a
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: lot that.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: When we drove you yeah, yeah, yeah, Like this was
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: probably the one moment where it really hit me in college,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: was like you were yeah, I under yeah, I was
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: going through kes.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Going to Kimo, but I had had not wanted to.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: We didn't want to kick me at leave school the
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: third time, So I underwent chemo and drive back every
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: few weeks. And it was like a Saturday or Sunday
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: after chemo late it.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Was like midnight or something. He really wasn't doing well.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And yeah, me and Daniel, our other roommate, like threw
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: him in the car, like laid him in the backseat
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: of the car.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: At a take like maybe one hundred and three, one
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: hundred and four.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: He was like really rough and drove him from and.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: My mom met my mom met me at the hospital. Wow,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: and was and didn't even know Kevin.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: We knew Utchmore a little bit because I had lived
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: with them the year before.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but we were new friends at the time, you know, right.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And my mom would say, That's what my mom
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: would say. And that's the type of man Kevin is.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: He doesn't even know this kid, but he knows that
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: he's suffering. He knows that it's his roommate, and the
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: right thing to do is to take him. Wow, that's
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: what my mom would say.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: It's true. No, it's true. It's like, you know, you're
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: you're he's nineteen. I'm twenty two. Like, come on, like nineteen, bro,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: you didn't Yeah, yeah, I have.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I had no context to any of this totally.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I think what's crazy about that list is the things
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: I was angry about while I was going through the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: notes before this session. I didn't even remember this list,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh wow, and then one of them,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I was like, what is this? Completely forgotten that and
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: it took me like ten minutes to remember what it
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: was wow, and I was like damn. And then I
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: kept reading it and I started to get emotional, Like
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I started to really get emotional, and I was emotional
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: because I was actually happy and relieved. These things don't
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: make me angry anymore, Like they don't. They don't make
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: me angry, like almost none of them. I think I
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: had value my college experience. I got my best friend,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: you know, like whenever friends I've lost, I've gained. I
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: feel like my life is better because of it. It's
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: because I've integrated this new part of me into that
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: old part. And I was like I never never thought
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: that's something that was like felt like it was destroying me.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Was that I would never recover? Is now you know
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the trophies in a in a case?
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you do you want to share that? Yeah?
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I think this is like you'll like this because this
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: is Do you remember when that was? Was it in
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two?
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Probably you were too working together because it probably was
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty two.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Kevin and I were on Supermarket Sweep together, the
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: game show.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: I do think I remember that.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like around the pandemic and this woman
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: like emailed me, do you want to try. I was like, okay, and.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Kevin, I have to know y'all story. My name is Kevin. Hey,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I'm a mindfulness and wellness coach.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Ah dude, no you ain't. You work at the gym.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: You're a gym teacher. And this is my best friend
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: from college.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: A man. Despite its name, this soda doesn't taste like
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: treat fun Guy roop beer. Let's say if you run,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: then it.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Kevin cornflakes.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Let's see what Kevin. Are you gonna need a meditation
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: person after the shot? I have one I can recommend
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: you know why medicate? Now? You know? They said to
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: come up with high energy, and they like write your
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: team name on the board, and so we sit down
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: and right there and like what's your team name? And
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: it was like it said team and then it said
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: fun Guy, like the mushroom f you And why team Funky?
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: I mean fun Guy? Good question four, Team fun Guy,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: because you're fun nice man, Team fun Guy. Thank you
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: for coming, thank you, thank you for making me laugh.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I love it.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: But anyway, we had this whole experience where they take
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: us on set. They walk you through the supermarket with
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: all the other teams and then they're like, you're gonna
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: be in the last filming segment, which is like in
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: six hours, and because they've shown a supermarket, we can't
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: have our phones because then we could research where to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: build a strategy and all that. So they're like, we're
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: gonna put you on a trailer for six hours. It's
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: a one room trailer, like the size of this room,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: with no phone and nothing else, just you two and
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: like two sandwiches.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: It was weird.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And we sat in this room for six hours and
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: we couldn't do anything other than just.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Strack and strategize about how to win the show. Yeah,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: we like we took a piece of paper and like, oh,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: if you go to this aisle first and then go
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: to this stile. I was like, but you have to
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: get the meats first because the meats are worth the most.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And then there was like a period. I guess like
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I probably was like I
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: was having a hard time, right, and I think I
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: just opened up to him. He's emotional about something.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I think we were both talking about shit we were
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: going through, like you know, yeah, four hours in you're
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: like you just start opening up and you were talking
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: about cancer. And about how challenging it was and how
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: challenging it still was in your life to talk about it,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: because as you would come back from New York, it
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: was like you, it was your identity in LA. You
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: went to New York, you created this new identity that
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: was Ben without cancer, and you came back to LA
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: and you started to meet new people that didn't know
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: about your cancer.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And you were like, I'm scared to talk about it
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: when I'm on dates or in work and all this
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: kind of stuff, because I feel like it's going to
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: bring up old Ben.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I was like at the time ashamed of
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: that and was enjoying that confidence I had in New York.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: And then man Kevin. Kevin's analogy was so good at
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: this point that I thought about getting it as a tattoo. Really,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: it has been in my Instagram bio since the day
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I heard it.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't even know. I didn't know that's what
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: your bio meant.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I genuinely didn't, He goes, but you know my bio, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: hell yeah, you want to say it, let me say it.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was talking about we were talking about going
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: on dates and in work and all this and and
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: being you know, scared to talk about cancer, and as
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I remember you saying that it would you're almost like
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: people will look at you differently and judge you and
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: almost like see a worst version of you as how
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: you were talking about it. And I just remember being like, dude,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: it's crazy that that's how you see it.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: I understand that's how you think about it, but it's
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: crazy that you think about it that way, because in reality,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: you going through cancer, the three times you went through
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: it are like trophies in your trophy case. Yeah, And
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: when people see that, when you actually welcome them into
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: that part of you, they don't see it as like
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: a weakness. They don't see like all the shit you
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: went through. They see it as like, fuck, that's amazing,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: and literally like their trophies that he's able to carry.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Right, other people see the strength and the resilience, and
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: are you there now where you can see some of that?
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, I mean totally yeah. But that analogy
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: has just given me what I think the problem before
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: was that I felt like I had to overshare it
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: to get people to see me, because that's what I
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: did early on after I beat cancer, And then I
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: realized that I actually get to like create my own
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: boundary and share it over time. But if I share
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: it the way that I need to, then those they
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: are trophies and that a true person will see them
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: as that. And I think I didn't realize that it
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: could be done that way. It's probably my favorite story right,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know, like it just is because it
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: has helped me feel more safe and confident and accepted
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and lose some shame and heal.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, what a best friend move right because he
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: saw you like that? I think that you felt seen
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: in a way that like you didn't even know that
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: you could see yourself, let alone that maybe other people
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: can see you that way if you were to share
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: your story, how.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Do you think you took the experience of cancer and
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: everything you went through and turned it into experiencing them
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: as trophies versus the pain you really experienced it with?
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Like what did you do in therapy with Jess or
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: just in your life? Obviously I said those words, but
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: like that doesn't I think those words could fall on
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: deaf ears ninety nine times?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: So what did what did I do? Like? What did
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: you do with the Yeah? Therapy. Once I accepted the
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: true nature of what that experience did to me, and
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I spoke truth to it in a way to everyone
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: that asked, no matter what their response was going to be,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: and not hiding behind it or not denying any feelings
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: or not misrepresenting it to the public, actually saying it
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: over and over again just made me feel more in
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: touch with it. And then becoming more in touch with
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: my experience made me feel better about myself. I was
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: consistently telling a story that other people had told me
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: about my disease. Would want I was twenty nineteen twenty, Oh,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: my Ben, you beat it. You're a You're an inspiration.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: You must be so grateful these days. I mean, that's
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: the fucking worst thing in the world. Or like telling
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: me how I should feel, And then I just started
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to feel that way. I don't blame people. They just
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: do what they're uncomfortable or they don't know what to say.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: It's fine. But I think as I stopped denying all
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: of my pain, that was like the biggest thing. That
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: was like stopping to deny the pain beautiful and yeah.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Only because we're here right now. This is a really
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: interesting question that I haven't never really thought about if
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: someone has a friend who's just been diagnosed with something
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: or is going through something really difficult like this, what
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: do you want to hear? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: want to hear your inspiration. You want to hear it's
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: all going to get better. You don't want to hear
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: all that shit. Yeah, what do you actually.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Want to hear? Well, I guess everybody, and I would
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: like to hear your take here too. But I think everybody,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: based on their experience with something hard or their experience
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to what whether it's losing a parent or a sibling,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: maybe you have like a unique relationship, or it's cancer
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: because you've had it, I think that like is the
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: caveat to this. But generally, I think the only thing
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: that can't hurt and is helpful is like, I can't
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: imagine how hard that is for you. I'm so sorry
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: you're going through this right now. If you need anything,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I'm here, And like that says so much. It doesn't
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: minimize their pain, Like that last thing you want to
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: do is minimize someone's experience by saying, oh, I know
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: someone that be cancer. I got that a thousand times.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: My dog had it, Like I got that one a lot.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: No, you didn't know.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: You fucking didn't.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Someone said my dog had cancer.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Oh I know someone who's who's whose dog? Be? Like
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: you name it, dude. The worst people are oblivious.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: I think you nailed it though, that people are uncomfortable
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: too and don't know what to say, and so they
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: go to what's going to make everybody comfortable, But really
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: it's what makes them comfortable, right, is to think you're
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: going to beat this, it's all going to be okay.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: And you know, I know you said you wanted to
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: hear my I take obviously obviously, though I value yours
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: a million times more. But it was the same thing
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, I'm here for you. Yeah,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: you know, when we're going through hard things, we feel
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: so alone and at the end of the day, there
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: is this existential loneliness, right, like we're going through our
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: own experiences and yeah, we just feel alone in it.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: So even if you've got a mom that's there with you,
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: you've got the best friend that's there with you the
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: emotional part, right, you're the only one really dealing with that.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: And so I think I'm here for you whatever you need.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: And then following through on that. I mean, I think
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: that's probably the best thing you can do for someone.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know if we do. I think
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I learned this after my dad died, but I realized
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it with my own experience, is that we don't really
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: understand grief as a society, Like we just don't understand
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the right way to talk about it. We don't talk
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: about it, we don't know the right way to mourn, like,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: we just don't do anything. We're just like the Eastern
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: culture is so much better. I think we just like.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: And so when when I was grieving my dad, it
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: helped me actually grieve my own cancer experience in a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: way because I was like, how would I grieve someone
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: like loss? And I think grief for me wasn't like
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I was dealing with grief in my own way. And
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I think that we have to find what works for
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you in grief, right, And I don't think every is
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: like one box for you. And mine was like a
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: lot of anger. I was eighteen and I got my
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: life taken away from me until I was twenty six.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Anger someone else might not be anger. But I don't
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: know if I would have realized that, because again, society like,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never seen healthy anger, right, do.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: You often find that getting in touch with maybe suppressed
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: anger is a pathway to healing.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: I think getting in touch with any suppressed emotion is
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: a pathway to healing. So I think, like Ben, like
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: you're saying, you know, the images that we have of
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: anger in our society, we forget that it's a healthy
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: emotion to have, right because when we act out anger,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: it's often destructive. But anger is a totally valid emotion,
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: just like all the other ones. And yeah, so when
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: we suppress it, when we suppress anger, when we suppress
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: anxiety or shame or guilt or anything, it eats away
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: at us, right. And so anger was like the brick
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: wall that was kind of holding you back and keeping
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: you stuck and until you could face that and move
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: through it, which meant feeling it right, not keeping it
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: boxed up or coming up with some story about it.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: That's what took the wall down.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was uncomfortable, right, Like I was angry.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I am not an angry person, right, Like, I don't
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: want to do anything anger, except for ten months, I
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: was just angry, angry at my parents, angry at my brother,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: angry at myself, angry at the world, and like that
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: is just part of the process. But it wasn't comfortable,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: But I think it put me in touch with the
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: truth of the experience and now that i'm I mean
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: it's been years since it's been years, but my experience
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: now is that, like, I'm not anger at cancer, but
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I won't hide from how much it took from me, right,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I won't. I won't deny the pain it caused me,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: the traumatic experiences, the vivid imagery, what it was like
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: for my mom and myself. Like if someone asked me today,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, man, you're ten years out, you must
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: be doing great, And I'll kind of plighly tell them
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: to fuck off, because I'm like, yeah, life's definitely better
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: than it was ten years ago. But like, I still
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: think about cancer often. It still shows up in my
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: life because if I get a cough, I immediately think
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I have cancer. If I get lightheaded, I think I
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: have a brain tumor, if my blood levels are off,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna get rediagnosed.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Still, you think about it that often all the time.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: I thought about it last week because I got light
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: headed and I was like I never get lightheaded. I
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: might have a brain tumor. Now I know it's an
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: irrational thought, but that feeling in my chest is like
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: that rediagnosed feeling, And so then I just have to
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: like I'm reliving the trauma, not by choice, but because
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: my brain just it just happens. You know.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: That's the whole thing about going to New York. Couldn't
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: take this awayah right. It gave you the freedom and
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: the clean slate to explore who you were outside of cancer.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: But when you came back and you had to confront
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: this other part of your past and your story, that's
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: where the integrate should happened. So yeah, you know, of
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: course it doesn't go away ten years out, twenty years out,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: thirty years out. This is always going to be something
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: that you've gone through and something that you think about
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: differently now than it was, but still there.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. It's like I'm I'm amazed at I'm
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: amazed at just like us sitting here because it's like
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: it's yeah, man, it was a dark, dark, dark time
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: for me. And I'm not like over like I was
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: very depressed, right, Like, just my brain was not a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: place that I wanted to be and the fact that
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: I'm like probably the happiest I've ever been today, Like
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: by far, I got a podcast, my best friend, I'm
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: talking to my little therapist. I'm like, I have a
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: job that I like, I have a girlfriend that I like.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Like all these things are like like huh, I can't
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: believe it. But it was just like this, like you
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: you were the beginning of it, like you really were.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: And I know, and it's funny. People are like, oh,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: why do you stop seeing her? Well, I was using
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: and I do this love, but I was using you
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: as a crutch to not actually heal. And I knew
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I had to like go my own way. And I think,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: like they say, like therapy can be in seasons, right,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: and I was ready for a I was ready to
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: go face it. And I look back now and I'm like, wow,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: what a foundation, Like you gave me such a good
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: foundation to grow into the man I am today, Like
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I would not be the friend I am, the son
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I am, I would not be the I would not
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: be any of the things I am. So so I'm
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: so grateful.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: I'm so grateful to hear you know how well you're doing.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: I mean really like to hear you say you're the
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: happiest you've ever been and you have all these things
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: in your life that you love. I mean, that is
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: just like the best thing that a therapist can hear.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: You were talking about how deep in the depression you
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: were when we first started working together, and how you
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: had to really like get uncomfortable to heal, right, you
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: had to face these feelings of anger that just felt
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: so so uncomfortable. So I love that you realized at
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: a certain point, like maybe this therapy is getting a
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: little too comfortable for me. I need to move on
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: to something else that's going to shake it up again.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: We have to get out of our comfort zones to
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: get better.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's challenging to do that. It's hard to Like,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: I was afraid.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: I don't blame you.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: I remember I remember like asking my mom and then
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I was using her as a crutch about it, and
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: then I was like, it was like, you know what
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: it was. It was like a it was like a
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: wedding Lauren had Lauren Greer had to invite my friend
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Lauren had invited me to like a wedding as a
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: plus one, and I couldn't make the decision on my own.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I was like relying on my therapist, by my mom,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, I'm using everyone as a
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: crutch now. I was like, I got to make these decisions.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'm better now. And so a lot
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of the work that I was struggling with was not
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: accepting my situation with cancer. I was I was pushing
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: it away. It was making me anxious, and so a
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: lot of it was like, how am I feeling in
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: this moment, Let's not deny any of that, right, And
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: then also, what are the things that you want? And
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: it was actually like writing out the things that I
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: want in very specific value driven ways. What kind of
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: family do you want? Who do you want to be
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: in your community? What kind of jobs?
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like how do you want to feel in your
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: work that you're doing, What qualities do you want to
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: bring into your relationships? Thinking about how you'd really like
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: your life to be designed?
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so a lot of that was like, as
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: you're feeling the moment, accepting that and then doing small
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: actions that push you towards those values that you have
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: to give you I think, to give me at least
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: more comfort in knowing that this moment will get better
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: if I keep working towards things that matter to me,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: So like giving back. It's like grief camp, right, Like
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: things like that can end up making you feel better
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: towards your values. But I think a lot of people
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: like don't have any mindful Like you have good awareness
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: of how you feel in the moment, but most people
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: like don't even know how they're feeling in the moment.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: And ac act therapy like really puts the onus on
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: you to like understand why are you feeling anxious? Like
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: what about the situation? Oh, I'm feeling anxious because like
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I'm actually unhappy at my job because I'm not getting
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: a raise or my boss isn't good. Okay, that's real.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And what are the three things you can do to
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: move towards getting a job that makes you feel better?
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Can you talk about grief camp for a bit?
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: She has no idea.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this was a turning point in your life.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: This also was a it was a huge moment in
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: your life. Fill me in yeah for Shure.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I after my dad, My dad died in
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: July in June of twenty twenty three. We stopped seeing
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: each other in March of twenty twenty two and six
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: months after he died. I I don't know if I
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: was depressed. I was just like grieving. I was like
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: very low and I was just like sad. And so
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I was scrolling on LinkedIn and I saw a guy
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: who posted he said, I just had the most insane
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: week in my life. I just spent a week at
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Experience Camps helping kids who had lost their parents. And
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I was like, wow, my value is to give back.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling grief and I need to put this somewhere,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: and so signed up, got accepted. This was a It
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: was a It was in July of this last summer,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: and I spent the three months leading up to it
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: not wanting to go completely, just like I don't need
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: to do this, I don't want to do this. I'm
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: not going to do this. I can't. I sleep in
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: a bunk. I donn't know with the kids. My life
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: is getting better, but I don't think I realized what
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: was going to happen. So I go to this camp
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: and I would say it was like probably like one
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: of the most healing things I've experienced in my grief.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: With my grief was like up in the mountains, I
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: was in charge of ten, like eight ten year olds
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: who had lost their parents and horrific stories, and with
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: a bunch of counselors who also had lost a sibling
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: or a parent. And what made this experience for me
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: great was that I was feeling so uncertain about the
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: entire thing, and every time I just kept moving forward,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I just kept getting rewarded by positive feelings. And the
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: feeling I had after I got back from camp was
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: like the most whole I had felt in my adult
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: life post cancer in my dad. The most whole you
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: saw me coming back. I was like on a high.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: It's crazy. I mean, I was a camp counselor growing up,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: so like to be at a camp with kids dancing,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: talking about my dad, hearing their stories, having fun. It
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: opened me up to something that I didn't think, I
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: know I needed, And I think the best part of
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: it was that it gave me healing myself which was
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: being seen and that the loss of my dad wasn't
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: just losing my dad. It was that I had also
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: dealt with cancer and that my story that I was
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: telling myself was that, like I was, just I lost
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: my dad. That's hard, but it was actually much deeper
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: than that, and it was more about my own cancer
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and what the experience of losing my dad was like
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: for me and how much harder I felt it was.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: And a lot of counselors had just like under like,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: I felt like they understood that and they understood that pain. Yeah,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: and so I felt really seen and it made me
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: feel so much more confident and accept it. And I
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: just like, I am definitely the person I am now
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: because of that experience, Like no doubt I would be. Yeah,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: I'm like I would never be able to do this
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: podcast without that experience.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Really. I mean, it's what we were just talking about,
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: the two parts kind of act therapy. Right. You went
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: to that camp to live your values, to give back,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: but you went with your own grief. It wasn't you
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: didn't tell yourself, I have to heal my grief and
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: then I can go support other people through theirs. You
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: did it while you were dealing with your own.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Feelings, right, And I didn't know what it was going
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: to be, like I was really I was really really worried,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: of course, right, But man, I had these kids like
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: just like such sad stories but still happy and I
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, gave me such closure.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it takes you to the I think that the
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: contribution element of just life and how good that.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Feels, and relationships. You know, I think we heal in
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: the context of relationships so much more than we give
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: ourselves credit for. And you know, we always think and
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: there are all these tropes too, right, like you have
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: to be happy on your own before you can be
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: happy with someone else.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: We've been talking about this a lot because like pop
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: psychology and like social media will say that's but it's
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: like just not it.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: Right, right, It's not it. We heal in the context
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: of relationships all the time.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Well, that's why I think therapy is so important, right,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: because what do they say, the number one indicator of
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: GET therapy.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Is the number one indicator of success is the relationships therapists.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in a weird way, I think our society has
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: become so independent and focused on self and fulfillment of
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: self that we've lost the giving element that feels so good,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Like you give, you go to brief camp to give.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: You do these things to give, But if you just
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: did them selfishly, it would be still the best thing
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: you could do for your mental health, and you'd still
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: be giving. Like it's like we think I need to
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: work on my mental health and so I need to
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: like isolate myself from all the shit that's gonna get
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: in my way. And yeah, you follow what I'm saying.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: It's like we try and go like, no, I need
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: to just focus on me and like journal and write
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: and be alone and da da, And that's actually not
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: great for you. You actually need to be around other people.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: You actually need to be like contributing to other people's
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: lives and giving and supporting other people. And that's what's
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: gonna actually light you up and like heal the parts
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: of you to your point that you didn't even know
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: you could heal.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah, it's wild that even like brought
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: up the grief camp thing. Of course I don't think
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: about it a lot, but like I have a hard
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: time remembering what my life was before because it got
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: so much better after that. This just feels more normal now.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: I can't even remember, oh I saw I'm fine or
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: I don't need anything, and I was like wait, I
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: was actually just like anxious or I was ruminating. But
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: now after it, it's like everything is so much better.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Do you think that's what brought up some emotion for
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: you at the beginning of our talk today that you
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: were reflecting on this time in the past that you've
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: come you know, you've moved so far away from yeah,
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: and having to kind of touch and revisit that pain
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: that you were in.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: For sure, that's a great point. I don't know if
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I remember how I even felt then day to day anymore.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: And I can't believe that. I can't believe that I
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: don't think about those things every day all the time,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: and I wasn't reminded of that until now, which is
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: like so cool. It's just like it's really I know,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: like it's just really special to me that I can
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: that anybody can heal from that stuff. I guess you
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: hear stories of it, but I never really would have
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: imagined or how it could show up in this way
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes it's even hard maybe to reflect on
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: how much you've healed, because, like you said, we adapt
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: to the new state of mind that we're in, you know,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: the new situation. We forget what it was like, not completely,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: but yeah, we get used to what we're dealing with now.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Right man, this has been great. I'm like I was
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: not expecting the conversation to be like this, you know,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: like I don't even know what I I think. I
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: was like not wanting to prepare for this podcast because
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I think deep down I knew. So I didn't open
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: my laptop till an hour before you got here, even
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: though I saw your name on the calendar for weeks
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: and I didn't open it. But I was like, what
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: is it going to be like? And so man, it's great.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: I know, I'm so grateful. I mean, I'm so grateful
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: to both of you for having me do this, and
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: I'm really grateful for you, you know, to being open
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: to reaching out and revisiting this stuff that it sounds
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: like in large part is behind you.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean it's just like like
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: you said, it's just integrated. I used to deny that
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: part of my life. I used to not I used
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: to have to be all of it or nothing, and
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: now it's like it's just I mean, people in my
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: life will listen to this podcast and have no idea
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: how battle cancer, not because I didn't tell them, because
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: it just doesn't come up anymore. And some people find out,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh my god, and can we talk about it?
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: I said, of course, But it isn't like a big
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: deal like I'll share hours of it or I'll share
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: a minute. There isn't like it just it's just now,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: it's all. I have built such a strong foundation of
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: myself outside of it, and I understand myself while I
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: was going through it that I'm in touch with all
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: of it so much. So well now that makes me
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: just feel I don't know better about the experience.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: Or before you really allowed yourself to confront the anger
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: and process it, that was keeping you stuck in cancer
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: and everything that you went through being such a massive
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: part of your story and identity, and it is an
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: important part, right, but there are so many other important
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: parts and there are so many other parts of you
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: that once you allowed yourself to really face it, it
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: was like, okay, that could go into its rightful space
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: and all these other parts could open up.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I feel that now I feel
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: like I'm ready to be like this, this part of
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: my life that I'm ready to jump into. Iver I
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: didn't know when it was going to happen. I'm twenty seven,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I'm twenty eight. When am I going to feel ready to?
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm thirty six, and I'm like, oh, it
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: didn't take as much time as I thought, Like at
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: the time, I was gonna take forever. Yeah, but now
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: that I'm here, I'm like, oh, it took the amount
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: of time you needed to take right, and I feel
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: great about it.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: And you got to the place you've been wanting to
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: get to and better.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: That's all, Jessica, Thanks for coming on, Thanks for coming on.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Appreciate you. Then, thanks for having some balls, and yeah,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: inviting your therapist onto the show.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Vulnerability is cool.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Candid conversation.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: That was definitely emotional. That was great.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for listening. We appreciate you.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: talking about our feelings, you are definitely going to like
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: everything else.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Follow on on Instagram at free therapy and we'll see
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: you next time.