Latest / Shouty Brain / #13: Kevin Helton
Transcript
- Trevor Holland: Trevor Holland here and welcome to Shouty Brain, the podcast from a late diagnosed Aud HD man on a voyage of discovery to find my people in a neurotypical world. Hope you're doing very well this week. I'm doing very well as well. Thank you for asking. This week I'm joined by a very special guest by the name of Kevin Helton. Now, Kevin Hell's from Scotland. He is a former soldier and was late diagnosed with Aud in middle age in his forties, similar to me. Now, Kevin is very, very interesting man, He's fascinating. He speaks incredibly eloquently and articulately and introspectively about his experiences of being neurodiverse and especially the kind of analysis he has done of his life since being diagnosed. He posts some really interesting stuff on his Instagram feed, which is where I found him. Now he can be found at that scott on the spectrum on Instagram. So I very much recommend you give him a follow. Now, as always, if you enjoy this podcast and whatever format you watch it slash listen to it on, please interact with it. I'd really appreciate it if you would like, subscribe, comment, and otherwise engage with the podcast. If you want to get in touch with me, you can do so via many different methods, but the easiest of those would be to by going to my website, which is shoutybrain.com, and where you'll find links to my Instagram, my YouTube, my Substack, all the other places where I can be found lurking in the internet. Wow, how's that for a bit of brain fart? the only other thing to mention is if you go to my Red Bubble shop at the moment, linked again via my website, shoutybrain.com, there is currently a forty percent sale going on across the website. So lots of lots of good savings to be made on all the wonderful products that I have designed. So please give that a look and buy yourself or someone who you care about a lovely little present. And give me a little kickback for doing so 'cause that would help me. Right. Anyway, without further ado, adieu. Without further ado, enjoy Kevin. Kevin, welcome to Shouty Brain. Kevin: Hello, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Trevor Holland: Thank very much, my friend. It's good to have you. So I came across you and your account on Instagram, as I do with most of my guests, and what I loved about your account and your posts. You spend a lot of time in your car having these thoughts about your diagnosis, about what happens afterwards, and really honest feelings. really quite poignant and I related to an awful lot of the things that you've said on there. So I really wanted to get you wanted to get your perspective on on late diagnosed all the HD similar to me. I think you're a similar age to me. I'm I'm for I just turned 43. You're a similar age. Kevin: Yeah, I'm just 42, 42 and a Trevor Holland: Right. Kevin: half. Trevor Holland: And, you my diagnosis was a staggered diagnosis. Initially, it was an ADHD diagnosis at 28, which then became an autism diagnosis on top of that at 42. So earlier on this year. So let's talk a little bit about your experience. What led you to seeking out? a diagnosis and what the actual process was of getting diagnosed. Kevin: For me, I didn't really consider it until I went and done a leadership course with my previous employer, 2023. And for that we had to do a disc assessment. Don't know if you've heard of a disc assessment. It's one of these behavioral things that you do to determine what kind of leader you're going to be. So I did the test and I got the report and I was sitting talking with a organisational development officer and we read through it and she got to the end and she's like, this reads like an autism diagnosis. And I was like, excuse me. So that was ticking away in my head. And then I went and did the course and it was spread over multiple weeks. There was 10 other people in the course. And just over those weeks, was everything everybody was agreeing on and discussing. I was like the complete opposite. was like, won't, that's not the way I would do that why do you think this way and stuff like that and I kept getting singled out and like why would you do that like why do you think that way why what like they were all very much getting bogged down in the grey areas of things and I was always the black and white person Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: So that kind of sparked my interest. I did a little bit of research and then thought I'm going to go to my GP. So I went to my GP late in 2023 and I think I had the typical experience that a lot of adults get. The GP was like, well, you can't be autistic. You're married. You've got a career. You've got children. And me being quite... I've always seen myself as being quite naive and gullible and taking people at face value. I thought, well, obviously she's the GP, she's the doctor. Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: I can't be. I can't be autistic, it must be something else. So I kind of put it in the back burner until probably around about February, March 2025 last year. I started having panic attacks. My second daughter was born in November 23. We moved house November 2024, so was quite a lot of change happening in my life. And then come the start of 2025, I just started going downhill, had panic attacks, took some time off my work. Ended up going to a psychologist and the psychologist was really good. We were talking through OCD and stuff like that, but it never felt quite right and I had to take more time off work. So I was absent quite often. So I decided just to seek a private assessment because my health board doesn't have any sort of adult pathway for any neurodivergence. So I went and I paid for a private diagnosis with a woman, a lovely woman who she was actually part of the authoring team for the Nice Guidelines for diagnosing autism in adults. Trevor Holland: Right. Kevin: It was quite a quick process from there, it wasn't a long wait, it cost a lot of money. It was very in depth but it was probably from engaging with Anne-Marie eight weeks to get my report. So it was quite quick that way but I felt I had to do that for my work. Like I needed the answers to try and explain the things and problems I was having at work and stuff like that. yeah. Trevor Holland: Was, were you assessed for both at the same time? Kevin: I wasn't not I probably the flip of what a lot of people get I was diagnosed autistic in October 2025 and then I got my ADHD diagnosis in January of this year because once I got Trevor Holland: Okay. Kevin: I got my diagnosed my autism diagnosis I read through the report kind of sat on it a bit and it just had that something this doesn't feel quite right it doesn't feel like the full picture So quite quickly then I went and thought, well I need to get the full picture because I need to know what's going on, like a lot of neurodivergent people need to do. So I can then put a plan in place to get back to my work and keep supporting my family. So I ended up going to another clinical psychologist near me who was really good as well. That was very in-depth, very expensive, but it was good. The reporter got at the end, that was probably the more light bulb moment of putting those two reports together. that's the picture. So, yeah. Trevor Holland: Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, excuse me. I'm very pleased for you that you were in a position where you could, you could go down the private route because it is so much quicker. And for many people, it's prohibitively expensive. And it was for me, Kevin: Yep. Trevor Holland: I certainly didn't have the means to to be able to put that sort of money into it. The waiting on the NHS is, I mean, as you said, just getting over that first hurdle of being heard by your GP is one of the big struggles to even have them agree to refer you in the first place. And, you know, not to disparage GPs, but they have areas of expertise and... in my experience, neurodivergence neurodivergence is not an area of expertise for general practice. Because this is so nuanced. But when when you were sitting there and you got your little let's talk about the autism diagnosis first. And so when you're actually given the given the nod, so to speak, and you were given that report that said you were autistic, take me through those initial reactions from you when you get that information. Kevin: think initially for me it was like you get that cliched relief that wow here's an answer but for me that was very short-lived. I'm just talking maybe an hour before Trevor Holland: Mm. Kevin: it became a kind of shit my pants moment. I maybe always knew deep down that this was perhaps the case but now that somebody's told me. 41 years old, I've built a life around neurotypical expectations. I've Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: got the family, the wife, the mortgage, financial commitments, the career. It's like not a case of, let's jump for joy, sunshine and rainbows, I'm autistic. It's, holy shit, I'm autistic. What do I do with this life I've built over four decades, kind of thing. So Trevor Holland: Mm. Kevin: that was my initial kind of reaction in that. that stayed for... it's still here but it's probably only over the last month or so that I have probably kind of crested the first peak I would say of my journey. I've actually done a lot of soul search and a lot of realisation. But yeah, still a long journey ahead for sure. Trevor Holland: You mentioned something in one of your reels about entering into a period of burnout. After having been diagnosed as something that you weren't anticipating and that particularly resonated with me and I know we've, we've talked briefly about it offline. That first episode of the podcast that I that I put out, where I talked at length about the unexpected. fallout that came with the diagnosis, you know, it's, it's unbelievable. And I'm someone who always likes to try and anticipate every eventuality in every situation before I even enter into it. And so I, I very much was of the thinking of, this is going to be nothing but a formality, nothing but a positive experience, because it's just going to tick a box that I've needed to be ticked. And it's going to make me feel like I've, I've, I've finally been understood by somebody else. And then I can now go through a process of, of piecing that together and moving forward in a positive way. But, but exactly what you described happened to me, I entered into a period of burnout almost immediately. And I was from the day I was diagnosed, I was off work for two months, putting everything back together and trying to work out what my future was going to look like. And even now, I've been back at work for over a month, I I still don't feel like I'm there. I'm still not quite there because the whole landscape has changed for me. So what was your experience then this the burnout that you experienced when you got the diagnosis, you had that very brief relief? What did that burnout look like to you? Kevin: I think because I had bought into the whole, we all do our research before her diagnosis, everybody does, and you always end up on social media because that's where it takes you. And you you buy into the stories of, you know, this is what I was looking for, know, this gave me the answers and stuff like that. So that's what I was expecting. And when that didn't last more than an hour, it was like, shit. what am going to do now? And I'm like you, I like to know every eventuality, I like to plan. And was like the plan that I'd had or the picture that I'd put in my head had just crumbled and disappeared. And I just felt like in a blank no man's land. That's what it felt like. It probably... I was in burnout before, I didn't know it. That's what led to me having to go off work and seek a diagnosis. That was burnout from being in an environment that wasn't suitable for me. But I think once I got my diagnosis, it became more of like an existential burnout. It was the who am I. I feel like I'm just kind of trying to trudge through the mud to find out who I am and... Yeah, it just felt like you were drowning for Trevor Holland: Yeah. Kevin: so long and it's quite hard to put into words. You don't want to be too dark about it, but I would look at it like think of the scariest horror film you've ever watched. would you want to recreate that for a loved one? Like, if you've watched something that completely terrified you, would you then go and say to somebody else, like, I think you should watch this Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Kevin: film. That's what I feel like when you try to explain it. It's like, I don't want to explain it sometimes because it was just, it's brutal. It's quite hard to put into words, I think. Yeah, it's Trevor Holland: It can be, yeah. Kevin: been the darkest moments of my life, but it has also been that change, that little direction that you need to go in here. You've got an answer. Start moving in this direction and you'll eventually find the light again. But they don't explain to you. the darkness you've got to walk through first. of, kind of thing. So yeah, that's Trevor Holland: No, no, no, don't. No. Kevin: it. It took me a while to kind of try and realise that. Trevor Holland: No, that's a really good way of putting it. So you talked about how you needed to try and figure out who you were. How are you getting on on that journey? Are you starting to figure out who you are? I know it's not a short journey. Kevin: Yeah, I see this is what I actually think. It's a bit of a trap because you see a lot of things about you need to find your authentic self and you need to unmask. But for me, this is my opinion. I think your authentic self is the person you are in the moment, in that moment. It's like you can't look back and talk about I've masked my whole life, I wasn't being authentic. But we didn't know that we were neurodivergent, we didn't know we masking. So for all intents and that was our authentic self in that moment. And I don't know what the future is going to look like, but the future is the thing I can affect. I think trying to figure out who I am and have a better understanding of how our brains work is us being authentic to ourselves. Because like the person I am today is not the person I'm going to be tomorrow, might not be the person I'm going to be in 10, 20 years, and it's definitely not the person I was five, 10, 20 years ago. So I'd... In a roundabout way, I don't know if we can ever fully understand our authentic selves because we are constantly changing, we're constantly evolving to the environment that we, and the inputs and the stimulus that we have in our life. So for me, I think I will, I see myself as being authentic if I just take each day as it comes and I try and do the best I can. That's me being authentic and whether I'm in a situation where I have to mask because it is necessary in this world, we can't completely unmask. then yeah, I would see me as that's the person I am. Just try to figure out me in the environment in that time. That's where I'm at just now. Trevor Holland: Yeah, that's absolutely fair enough. And yeah, it's not. I don't disagree with that. Yeah, your authentic self is is is what you are. mean, for and I've kind of come to the realization that perhaps my authentic self is is is someone who's always trying to be someone else. Because that is the reality of it. Kevin: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Trevor Holland: But you do talk a bit about unmasking in some of your content. So is that something you've been trying to make a conscious decision to do to try and enter into certain situations and try to not make that decision to fawn or to people please? I'm not necessarily saying that you are a people pleaser, but have you made any kind of conscious decisions to try and approach situations in a slightly different way as a result of this? Kevin: Yeah, definitely. This is where I struggle with definitions of things and take things very literally. Obviously, it's like unmasking. It's like I need to change who I am, who I've always been. That's what I would see as taking the mask off. I think for me, it's just understanding the impact that situations are going to have on me. if I'm going to an interview with neurotypical people. I'm not going to go and act like the way I would now in my house where I feel more comfortable in front of the people I love where I can kind of just relax. My vocal stim a lot. Can I just be fidgety and stuff like that? So in terms of masking that way, yeah, there's things. I just would not feel comfortable doing it in certain environments. But I'm aware of that now, so I think it has less of an impact and takes less energy. Whereas before, I didn't realise I was masking, so I wasn't in control. But I think once you start to understand the mask is necessary in certain situations, you then become more in control. So I'm definitely Trevor Holland: Right? Kevin: trying to avoid the people-pleasing. I would always avoid conflict by probably just more internalizing and going quiet. And I'm not doing that anymore, can probably, people are maybe gonna get bit annoyed with me. Like, that's not the Kevin we know kind of thing. But yeah, there's certain things that I've got to the point where I'm like, nah, I'm not gonna sit and take that. yeah, situations like that. That's when the unmasking is good. Because like yourself, like you said in your introduction episode, the fawning and the people pleasing and the trying to make everyone else feel comfortable above your own comfort is that is something I've done my entire life. That's something I think that's had the biggest impact and that's something I really want to try not to do as much in the future. Trevor Holland: It's really hard though. Kevin: God, yes, absolutely, really hard. Trevor Holland: it's become so ingrained in every decision I make because I'm so overwhelmingly unconfrontational. I can't even really put my finger on what it is about confrontation that freaks me out so much. But it's it's it's just the idea of anybody being excuse me, the idea of anybody being annoyed with me at any time. Because I just want I want a peaceful existence where everybody likes me and everybody Kevin: Yep. Trevor Holland: agrees with me. And so many times I've just avoided any kind of conflict by, like you said, just not saying anything or saying yes to things I should really say no to. trying to turn that around and suddenly stop doing that. it's so hard to do without me thinking, well, I'm just being a dickhead here. Because, Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you know, I'm a polite person. That's one of the way I was raised. I'm a I'm a P's and Q's polite person and considerate of other people. And suddenly trying to switch, not switch it off, but be a bit more honest about how I feel. How can you do that without seeming like a twat? So it is a really difficult thing to try and try and change. But luckily or not luckily for me, with my autism comes as with many other people, overwhelming sense of fairness and justice. When I see something that I think is just not not right, not fair. I'm less afraid to speak up about that than I used to be. And I've got such a. a low tolerance for bullshit, and for things that just do not need to exist. So things that in my head just do not make sense. If something doesn't make logical sense, I'll speak out about how that thing doesn't make sense. And in a work environment, that can be a bit tricky. Because the number of meetings that I'm in, that I think do not need to exist, this meeting doesn't need to be happening. this could be a fucking email. let's just, you know, and these days I'm a little bit more kind of, I'll speak up in that meeting, in that meeting that, you know, contains senior members of staff and executives and stuff. I'll say, hang on, why are we here? This is rubbish. Kevin: Yep. Trevor Holland: It's I feel like if I don't get this thought out, then I'm doing myself a disservice. But I see it so glaring sometimes these things. saying why is everyone, everyone else is playing the game. And I'm wondering, are you playing the game because you don't see that as bullshit? Or more likely, you know, it's bullshit, but you just you're just playing along with it, because it's your job, right? You just turn up to work and you do the thing that you don't necessarily agree with. But I'm I can't live like that. I can't live in an environment where I'm not. I'm not calling things out for what they are. And I, but I think that's an important thing to do. So even though it's got me a bit of a reputation, not for being a troublemaker, but for someone who, if I'm in a meeting, there's a good chance I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a thing. that other people wouldn't say. I'm not apologetic about that anymore. That's my point. And I think that's an important thing. with with your your secondary diagnosis, then of ADHD, was it a similar experience to the autism in terms of the the emotional journey that you went on as a result of it? Kevin: No, I think when I got my ADHD diagnosis, that one mate, it was a surprise, but it made more sense in a way. I was not expecting it at all because I had the very stereotypical view of both autism and ADHD. I was like, how can I have ADHD? I was a wild child, but quite soon after starting school. I've obviously learned to mask and fit in and became quite quiet and quite reserved so I never thought of myself as being ADHD but when I got the diagnosis of combined type it just that was like a light bulb moment, more of a aha kind of... I think there's slightly less stigma around ADHD than there is around autism. felt like if people ask me I'll tell people I'm ADHD, I'm all wary about... seeing a autistic as well. So yeah, it didn't feel, it didn't hit as hard as my autism diagnosis. Trevor Holland: It feels like the neurotypical folk. it feels it seems more palatable to tell them that you're ADHD because it's it's rightly or wrongly, well wrongly, it's seen as less invasive on them and they've got to do less to accommodate it and they'll see it as just a, you know, you're away with the fairies, you're not paying attention or you might be a little bit, put your foot in your mouth or lots of energy or whatever but none of it's like we need to actually adjust the way that we approach situations with this person. It seems, I don't know, maybe it's seen as a little bit more of a more of a playful condition for people. Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: It's a silly thing. But autism is very much, autism is a Kevin: Yeah, I think it's like... Yeah. Trevor Holland: scary word for people to get their head around. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, Yeah. I think the C-autism is difficult and ADHD is quirky. Almost, Kenneth. It's like... Trevor Holland: Right, right, exactly. Exactly. And what was what was school like for you as someone who was neurodivergent, but didn't know it? Did you get good, good grades? Did you struggle? Kevin: I was probably most of my reports in primary school was like highly intelligent, needs to learn to focus more. That was throughout. Got good grades all the way up until probably third year at secondary school, high school when we were starting to do exam prep and things were... We're starting to get a little bit more difficult and you had to put a little bit more effort into studying and stuff like that which I was never really good at. So up until, I was really really good up until third, fourth year and then started to slip down from there. My grades slipped, my attendance slipped. Started kind of burning out, not knowing it at the time. So yeah, I think. A lot of my reports, very cliche like a lot of neurodivergent people was very intelligent, needs to learn to focus and stuff like that all the way through. But I've I've always enjoyed learning. I've always been inquisitive. It's just the whole studying side and that unless I'm properly focused and interested, I could just never get into it. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Why do you think there's such a such a parallel between people that seem to be of higher intelligence and also neuro neurodivergent? Kevin: think the pattern recognition, we see things, we tend to look deeper. And I think we are good critical thinkers, which is lacking in today's society. So whether we are more intelligent or not, I just think they're certain. When we get interested in something, we get interested and we go deep. think that's it. I think it's just the inquisitive nature of learning anything that you have to... Don't read the headline. You've got to look underneath and what's beneath it. I think neurodivergent people are always doing that because we've spent our lives... in a world that's not designed for us so we're always vigilant, we're always looking and observing so we're taking in more information than perhaps a neurotypical brain is and we're Trevor Holland: Yeah. Kevin: able to file that away so yeah I think that's maybe why we appear more intelligent I don't know if I'm a still I feel like a dumb intelligent person that's probably how I describe myself Trevor Holland: Well, you have a very eloquent and introspective way of presenting yourself, especially in in your your reels on Instagram. That's one thing I picked up is that you're very introspective and you speak very clearly and eloquently about your experience. I think that's something that's quite common with us as well. I think that's because we spend so much time thinking that you kind of develop that And yeah, you want to, we want to understand everything, don't we? We don't just take things at face value, we want to understand why things are the way they are, we want to understand what things mean. So yeah, you're probably right in that. What about socially? So did you was it? Were there ever any kind of red flags in terms of how you interacted with other people, even within yourself. How did you feel? Kevin: Outwardly no. Like when I got my mum to fill out the forms for my autism diagnosis she couldn't fill out anything. was like... The psychologist read it and she's like there's nothing in here because my mum was like look you had friends, you were invited to parties, blah blah blah. And that's because... I was a good actor, was good at fitting in but I always felt like I was on the periphery of a group. I would be there but not there if you know what I mean. That's how I felt. So I probably looked from the outside as if I was part of a group but I was always just floating around the outside. Trevor Holland: All right. Kevin: That's how I felt for my whole life really. Never really felt. Felt like... I was in the group but not part of the inner circle, so to speak. That's pretty much how my entire social life has been. Trevor Holland: And is that still the case? Kevin: Yeah, I don't socialise much. I have a core group of friends probably that I speak to on WhatsApp and stuff. Maybe see them once or twice a year, but I like it that way. I know that they know that they could call on me if they needed anything. I'm always at the end of the phone and I'm there to help, but I am not going to go to... nights, lots of nights out or stuff like that. I'll turn up to big occasions like big birthday parties and stuff but long gone are the days of meeting up at the pub on a Friday night and stuff like that. Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: I can't do that anymore. Trevor Holland: No, no, I feel you on that. So when you got your diagnosis, diagnoses, and you then took that to your workplace at the time, and did you go through the usual kind of process of going through an occupational health assessment and stuff like that? Kevin: Yeah, I took two weeks off work in April last year when I had my panic attacks and then went back to work. But then I had to go off again in the end of August last year because it was just getting too much. and I never returned. I never returned to work after that through many attempts to try and return. I got my diagnosis in October, tried to work out adjustments and stuff like that, it just became apparent to me that the environment wasn't going to be suitable. So it was a long drawn out affair, but it ended up that I just left that employment. It was just, I think it was the best thing. Best thing for me. But it just showed me the difficulty there is in disclosing neurodivergence in any workplace. I don't think it's not necessarily the fault of the employer or the employee. There's just a lot of misunderstanding and lack of awareness out there that we need to try and challenge a bit. We all did the best we could to get to a point where I could return to employment, but just for the best. For me, my sanity and my mental health, stepping away from that employment was just the best thing. Trevor Holland: And it's still quite recent in terms of you officially not being employed by them anymore. Have you had a chance to think about what's next for you? What are you going to do now? Kevin: Yeah, I think as we were talking about before, there's the self-employment route. That's something I'm looking into. I'm a chartered surveyor, so I enjoy looking into detail in buildings, building pathology, defects, why buildings fail, things like that. So I want to use that experience and skill that I have along with my engineering experience from the Army to probably just work for myself. just a small boutique building consultancy or something. But in Trevor Holland: you Kevin: the meantime, I'm going to have to kind of maybe look at some freelance consulting roles just to keep some money coming in. But that's something I'm definitely working towards. It's what I'm getting the dopamine kick from trying to work out a business plan, do some market research. But I really see myself not being able to work for other people. get it. It's like what you were saying about the meetings. I can't do that anymore. that's the conclusion I've come to is I cannot play that game so why even try? It's difficult, I've lost my financial security and my good pension's gone but at the end of the day that's not everything. Trevor Holland: No, it's terrifying to me though, because I feel like I can't really do it anymore either. But I am still doing it. Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: But like like with everyone else really out of necessity, the lifestyle that that I've got at the moment, the you know, I'm not a high earner by any means, but I also don't have a particularly outlandish lifestyle but it's just so stable. The small little bubble that I built with my wife and my cat. I don't want anything to fuck it up. So I need the stability at least for now. But I'm finding it more and more apparent that it's I know that I'm on a I'm on borrowed time in this thing. And I Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: know that eventually it's gonna implode. It is, it just will. It is just a case of when rather than if. And I'm gonna just keep it going for as long as I possibly can. But I don't know how long I'm be able to do it. And so that's terrifying to me because I need my life to stay as it is. But I need to find potentially a different way to be able to provide that for myself. which is horrible. You had a career in the army. What set the wheels in motion with that, if you don't mind my asking? Kevin: Yeah, it was something I always wanted to do, I think from a young age. There was, without going into too much detail, was medical reasons that I felt going into the army would be a good way to prove that I was courageous and a proper man, put it that way. So I'd always had this idea of like, weird, like watching platoon. The scene with William de Foeve chasing down the helicopter as he's got his hands in the air and I'm like, fuck, that would be a great way to go, do you know what? See, if I join the army and that's me, I'm like, everybody will remember me as being this courageous soldier. Stuff like that. That's essentially how I got into thinking about the military. But then the more I researched it and the more I looked into it, the more I thought, do you know what, I like being outside. I like the idea of serving. I've always had a protective instinct in me. I'm like, joining the army. seems like a good show. So I did. I took a couple of attempts. I tried when I was in my late teens but at that point I was heavily into drinking. I enjoyed the drugs a bit too much. I was a bit overweight, light-hearted, so it wasn't until I was 22 that I finally joined and started training. Trevor Holland: take me through that because we talked a little bit briefly before we started recording but you said that you really enjoyed the training. Kevin: Yeah, yeah. think there's things in my past now that I look at with a neurodivergent lens that you're like, Jesus Christ, that was a massive red flag. Like, that is obvious. Because when you go into the army, everybody says, just suck up the training. It's crap. You will hate it. But once you get into the field army, you'll love it. You'll make lots of new friends. You get to do cool stuff. You get to travel the world, do a lot of booze and stuff like that. but it was the complete opposite for me. loved training. Like you went there and you were told, this is where you have to be, this is what you need to bring, this is what you need to do. And I just, I loved that. I loved that structure, that rigidity. You knew where you stood. And if you didn't quite meet the mark, you got instant brutal feedback. And it didn't come from a place of malice. was like... you're not making the cut, you're being a bit shit, you need to do this to improve. And you're like, cool, I know what I need to do, I'll do it. And then the next day you'll be like, fuck, good job man. You took it on board and you did it. And that is what my brain needs. So got through training, got a commendation at the end of training for being. I say. But, and then I went to the field army and the field army was completely different. It just felt like another job, except you were away from home a lot and it was just a load of menial tasks most of the time unless you were out doing proper training or going in ops. It wasn't the cool Gucci stuff that you see in Hollywood. It was a lot of boredom, not much discipline and it just... brain couldn't compute that. I was like, no, take me back to the rigidity of training. I need somebody literally shouting at me and whipping me. And Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: I would love, I'd be like, great, I'm going to be the best person I can be. But if you, this is the ADHD side, I think that once you then put the onus back on me to meet those standards, I'm going to find a way to probably not do it. And it's not, it's the procrastination, it's not laziness, it's just... something in my brain, it just couldn't allow me to keep up at that level anymore. yeah, I dislike to feel the army, I love training and that is the complete opposite of most other soldiers you'd speak to. Trevor Holland: Yeah. And now, is how do you now apply it? Do you have you found a way to try to apply some of those things to your life now in terms of what you really enjoyed about the rigidity and the routine? Have you tried to inject some of that into your life now? In any way, in anything that you do? Kevin: Yeah, I definitely try to have more structure. I'm not very good at maintaining it, but I like to try. I like to go to the gym at a set time. usually... like to go get myself a wee coffee after the gym. I do my best thinking in the gym, that's why all my videos are done in the car after I've had a workout. So that's very much the rigid part of me, but then once that's over, that takes up a small part of the morning. That's then when it becomes like, what do I do now? Kind of thing, and it starts to kind of dip down after that. I definitely need to become better at kind of creating more structures throughout my day. Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: And I think. Like being on medication, it gives you that focus but for me, I don't know where to point that focus yet. So Trevor Holland: Right. Kevin: I think that's where I'm currently at and trying to work on is how to take that focus and put it in a productive direction. Trevor Holland: No, that's exactly it. It does give you a certain amount of clarity, but it doesn't necessarily tell you where to put it. yeah, that's a great way of putting it. Some of the things you've talked about, you've talked about executive dysfunction. Now, kind of the paralysis that I get, I'm still trying to make peace with it because I spent so much. of my life, resenting myself for what my perceived failures were my perceived shortcomings, because I agreed with my teachers, highly capable, but for some reason doesn't apply himself. And I'm like, why don't I? It made me feel stupid. It made me feel lesser made me feel inferior. So even now, when I still see myself as that person. I still see myself as an intelligent, capable person. When I want to do a thing, even if I don't quite know what that thing is, I just want to do something. I want to do anything because I want to be productive. And yet I'm paralyzed and I'm not doing anything. I'm just scrolling my phone and I'm doing it for extended periods of time or I'm sitting on the toilet for so long that my legs go to sleep. Kevin: god yes, yeah yeah, that's my safe space. Trevor Holland: I stand up and I can't walk for five minutes because my legs gone dead. I'm like, why did I just do that? But I don't even know it's happening. I'm stuck and I'm not moving forward in any way. And I don't know how to reconcile that. So even now I'll punish myself for it. you have similar experiences yourself of it where you can't do anything. Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's like, it is that. It's wanting to do something, but not sure what you want to do so you don't do anything. But I think how I'm trying to reconcile that is like when you go back to your teacher telling you you're intelligent, but you need to focus. All the... Advice I've been given throughout my life has been through a neurotypical lens. So I think now that when I start to see things not through that lens, you can be bit easier on yourself. I want to be productive, but I now understand that my brain is wired in a certain way that I'm not always going to be able to be productive. So it's not my failing. don't be so hard on yourself. That's kind of what I say to myself. So if I am sitting on the toilet for half an hour, because one, I'm avoiding my children and two, I'm stuck down scrolling, is that a bad thing? Is maybe that just what I had to do in that point in time? Trevor Holland: Right. Kevin: That's what my brain wanted. So Trevor Holland: Right. Kevin: don't be hard on yourself, just accept it. There's other times where I've been sitting at this computer and I've written an entire business plan for a new business idea in half an hour and you've sent it to people and they've read that they're like, jeez, that's really good. How long did you work on that? you're like, half an hour. Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: It swings and roundabouts. What I'm really bad at or was bad at, I'm getting better, is I've been really tough on myself for those bad times, sitting in the toilet, down scrolling. but I would not give myself the applause for the things that I succeeded at, like being able to do the business plan. I wouldn't Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: see that as a positive. I'd like, that's just nothing, that's just me doing something. Whereas other people are like, no, that's good, that's amazing. Like, how did you manage to do that? And it was that, that I would never be able to take in. I would take in all the negative, but not be able to take in the positive. And I think now I'm slowly starting to be able to accept more of that positive. So yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah, that's whenever I do manage to do something. I'm having to learn that as well. Because I if I do do something, I'm just I will I'm just doing what everyone else does anyway. This is the one day that I haven't failed. why am going to why am I going to applaud the fact that I just haven't felt but it's not that my wife takes the piss out of me about it because she will say that, you know, if I if I get something in my head that I want to do that I want to try and I'm engaged with the idea of doing it. I'll do it hardcore. And she says I've got this innate ability to just shit out something that's really good. Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And she says I do my best work like that. If I if I if I think if I don't overthink it, if I decide I want to do something and I just dive in head first and I do it, and I'll shit something out in the space of an hour or two. that tends to be my best work because it's not gone through the filter of overthinking. And I enjoy those moments, but it makes me sad when I can't always be like that because Kevin: Yep. Trevor Holland: I feel like if I'm not constantly moving forward, I'm moving backwards. But I'm allowing myself a little bit more listening to my body or listening to my the signals I'm getting from my from my body or my brain now. So if my if what I need is nothing, it's to do nothing, then I will I'll do it. And I won't necessarily think I need to have earned the right to do it through the lens of being neurotypical, is well, if you've, if you've, if you've been a good boy, and you've done this, you've done this, and you've eaten your vegetables, and you've taken the bins out, then you can sit down and watch the TV. It Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: doesn't necessarily equate like that. If that's what you need in that moment, then allow yourself to do it without hating yourself for having done it. And one of the things that I try to do, because I'm a creative person, and I always want to be trying to create something, whatever that is. whatever project that I've got on at the time. If I don't do anything for a whole day on that project I think what's important to me is that I do something towards it. Now, what I've had to reframe is what that something looks like. Because I do a lot of thinking. I'll go out for a walk every day for about an hour to clear my head and to set me up for the day. And I write. So I used to think if I wasn't physically writing words on a page, then I wasn't writing. But what I found myself doing is when I go for these walks, I'm planning things and I'm doing, I do 75 % of my writing in my head before I even put words to a page. That is still moving forward because I'm still working things out. So if I can say to myself, if I ask myself, what did you do today? And I'll say, well, I planned, I worked out this whole character thread in this thing I'm writing. Well, what have you got to show for it? Nothing. But doesn't matter. I did it. And I've moved forward, I've progressed. And that's helping me to be much more kind to myself. Because I'm seeing progress in a way that isn't as tangible as before. I'm still moving Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: forward, but it's just in my own way, in my own time and in a way that I can sustain. Because I you know, if I if I really really put everything into something, and I know I can do it, but I don't want what comes with that the cost of it. Because I, I'll be absolutely fucked for a few days afterwards, if I just absolutely ruin myself doing so what's the what's the what's the point of that? And I want to enjoy being creative as well. I want to enjoy the process of doing it. So yeah, I've had to reframe what what I see as being productive and I think that has helped. And some more cynical people might see that as, well, you just worked out how to make excuses for not doing things, but it's not that. Kevin: Yeah, that's what the Daily Mail will tell you. Trevor Holland: my god, don't. Fucking hell. Don't even. Kevin: It's about the metrics that we've kind of measured ourselves against. think you talk about productivity. For me, the big one was success. And I think it's perhaps the reason I ended up burnt out because... The metrics that neurotypical people measure themselves successfully against is the tangible things, how nice is your house, how nice is the car you drive, how much money do you have in your bank, what's your job title. And when you chase that, like I did for four decades, it's exhausting. But then now it's like none of that matters. I have a nice house, which I'm now having to sell because I can't afford to stay here. I had a nice car, which I got rid of and now just have a runabout. kind of thing. It's like those things don't actually matter. And I think that's probably one of the biggest things that getting my diagnosis did, has made me realise that those metrics for my brain were completely wrong. It's like, I do not measure success in tangible things. It's, it's, how happy are you? How do you feel in your head? How? how do the people that you love around about you, how do they feel when they're in your presence and stuff like that, how do you help them, how can you help other people, that's the metrics I want to measure myself against now, Trevor Holland: Mm. Kevin: not the physical, tangible things you can hold in your hand because you can't take them with you when you're no longer on this world, so that's what makes no sense to me anymore. I don't want that material stuff. I would rather build experiences and help other people out. And for me, that'll be the metric that I measure my success against, I think. Trevor Holland: Brilliant. Yeah, couldn't put it better myself. This brings me on to the couple of format questions that I've just recently started doing. So I sent you a couple of questions in the week. Hopefully you've had a chance to think about them. So the first one is the one that Sarah answered last week. So I know, I know, I know, So if you could Kevin: was such a good answer. Trevor Holland: just pick up. your life and put it in a fictional universe from TV and film one that would be fulfilling and one that would be compatible with the way your your mind's wired up. Is there one you have in mind? Kevin: The one I was thinking of is probably the story that would best describe my life. And that would be if you picked me up and put me in Middle Earth in The Lord of the Rings. Because there's so many different things within the story of The Lord of the Rings that just make sense to my life. I was trying to think, like the one ring to rule them all. For me, That has been that neurotypical standard that I have been trying to live towards my entire life. You you put that ring on and you disappear and you become part of, like, you just feel as if you're in it. So when I got my diagnosis, it felt like I'm going on that journey. So you're like a couple of wee hobbits trudging across Middle Earth trying to reach Mount Doom. And it is a dark, hard, terrifying journey. but in the end you get there. So I think that kind of describes the journey I'm on, but then also I would like to live in a place like Middle Earth where you can have a fellowship, like the Fellowship of the Ring, where you have people from different backgrounds. I don't know what you call them, species. Dwarfs, Elves, Hobbits. all coming together for a common good and that's something I think is missing in today's society. So yeah, think living in Middle Earth amongst all those different people would be good. Once we get rid of the dark stuff and dealt with Mordor. Trevor Holland: That's great. That's excellent. I like that answer a lot. And the second question. If we could wave a magic wand and remove your autism and your ADHD from your life and have you be neurotypical, so you would no longer have those struggles that you've had your whole life, would you do it? Kevin: This is a yes and a no answer for me and I'll caveat that with I would like one day with a neurotypical brain. Because I think a common problem we have is a communication difference between neurotypical and neurodivergent people and that goes both ways. It's like we're in the minority so we're seen as the difficult ones, the ones that's wrong and that's not true at all. We're not deficient, it's just a difference. But... As much as a neurotypical person doesn't know how my brain works, I don't know how a neurotypical brain works. So for example, if I could just have 24 hours in a neurotypical brain, that would give me a better understanding of say how my wife operates, how she thinks, how the people that I work with, if they're neurotypical, how they think. But I wouldn't want to do it forever. I wouldn't get rid of it forever. I am a product of my experience. was undiagnosed neurodiversant for 41 years and Trevor Holland: Hmm. Kevin: I've had a hard life. Some of it's been shit, some of it's been really good, but I wouldn't change it. it's like, I like the person I am today for all those difficulties that I've gone through, but I genuinely see myself as a good person. I realised quite quickly that I... do not have an ego. I think that's why I'm able to talk quite openly. I've always been kind of introspective and observant, so I like those things about me and I wouldn't want to change that. But I would like just one short opportunity to try and understand how a neurotypical brain works better so we can work on those communication differences. because it's fine and well pointing fingers like you don't know how I think and stuff like that but it's the same we don't know how neurotypical people think it's just they're the majority so more people listen to them than listen to us but in my opinion it's a two-way street and we need to try and break down that divisiveness so if we had a better understanding of each other then a lot of things would be better Trevor Holland: spot on. No, that's really good. I think I think in a similar way in the sense of if I could wave a magic wand and not not have the things that I find really difficult anymore. But the thing is, it's not just it's not as clear cut as that either. Because in doing that, you're removing some of the more positive aspects of it. Like I would most likely lose how inquisitive I am and how empathetic I am and how observant I am. I don't think it's worth it. But I really love that you would do it as a learning exercise. But you do it temporarily as a way to increase your own understanding of the world. Couldn't put it better myself, because yeah, absolutely. I have no idea how a neurotypical mind works. And what I would like to think, I tried to tell myself that I have a very good idea of how they work. But the reality is probably I don't have a fucking clue. So yeah, 24 hours, learn what you can and then duck and roll out of there and go back to where you were. But with some equipped with something that you can move forward with, that will help bridge the gap. Because you talked a little bit on Instagram about the us and them side of things, which is not. very productive. don't think I agree with you on that there isn't an us and them neurotypical versus neurodivergent and it's not it's differences. It's not one's better than the other. It's there are differences and we just need to understand them a bit more and embrace them a bit more. And so I would I would wish the same for the opposite as well. Not that I want to punish anybody, but how good could things be if everyone who is neurotypical and everyone who's neurodivergent could swap brains for 24 hours. We could understand them better, they could understand us better. I think that could make such a difference to the landscape of people who could just understand each other better. Because I think that's what it is. If things are so far removed from your own experience, a lot of people just find it so hard to envision. that experience because they put everyone naturally puts everything through their own lens. And if it doesn't fit in with that idea that you have, then you'll be quite dismissive or cynical of it. So I think it can make such a difference to the world in general, if we could just understand each other's experiences a little bit better. say that all the time about being neurodivergent is as much as we try to explain it and we can explain it to each other and we can we get it because we find a lot of common ground when we talk about it even if we have got different experiences we we have there's a you know a lot of crossover with a lot of us and we try to explain it I do sympathize with neurodipical people even though some of the way that they present their confusion is is is is negative and can be hateful. But I get it because it's so hard to understand it. It's hard for us to understand it. So for us to try and explain this abstract concept to a neurotypical person and have them fully appreciate the nuances of what our experience is like, it's impossible. So I understand their difficulty understanding it but I just wish they didn't necessarily have to be so adversarial about it. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, you don't need to fear what you don't know. That's the thing. If people aren't sure or they're uncertain about something, they tend to apply a fear to that rather than inquisitiveness like we would do. Trevor Holland: Right. Kevin: So I think that's why, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it's a... know it as a survival mechanism of neurotypical people that fear what you don't know and it can't hurt you or something along those lines where it's the opposite. Trevor Holland: Yeah, probably. Kevin: like I want to know more, tell me more. Trevor Holland: because I feel like I feel like I'm safer if I do know rather than bury my head in the sand. I feel Kevin: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: like the more I learned, the better equipped I am. Kevin: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Kevin, listen, my friend, really appreciated the time this morning. I know it's a bit of an early start for some people, but thank you for coming and giving me an hour of your time and explaining a little bit more about your experience. Really insightful stuff, really, really good. So I really appreciate it. and keep in touch and we'll speak again sometime soon I'm sure my friend so thanks again for your time man. Kevin: Absolutely. Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Cheers. Trevor Holland: Thanks, Kieran. Take care, buddy. Thank you very much, Kevin. And I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I did. once again, please like and subscribe and interact with the podcast. I very much appreciate your engagement. and I'm gonna extend l last week's little contest for another week. So I'm gonna be extending the same question to you guys as I extend to my guests, which is Which universe from TV or film would you choose to live in if you could? And kind of think about how that might fit into your neurodiversity. I find that a really interesting insight into the ways people's minds work. So we've already had two. We had Sarah last week who wanted to live in the wizarding world of Harry Potter. And this week Kevin would choose to live in Middle Earth. two really interesting and different answers and for different reasons as well. So get in touch with me and let me know where you would live if you could. And get in touch with me whichever way you choose to, whether that's via my website or Instagram or or YouTube or whatever. And the best answers that I get I will read out and give you a shout out next week. But in the meantime, have a wonderful week everybody. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and be kind for fuck's sake. Love you.