Latest / The Complete Agent - The Podcast For Premium Real Estate Agents / 133. The Estate Agent Who Increased His Fees By 65% And Still Grew Ft. Michael Parry
Transcript
- JK: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Complete Agent Podcast, where each week we get together to talk all things a state agency. My name is James Kendall, and I'm joined by my northern colleague, only one this week, Mr. David Warburton, and a very special guest, Mr. Michael Parry of Frank Modern and Parry and Grace. Now, David, seeing as you were late, we're going to go over to our very special guest first, Mr. Michael Parry. Mike. Dave Warburton: I don't think another in first. JK: How's the week been? Mike: It's been a good week, been a good week. Seven sales, one of which been on the market a year with us and longer with someone else. It's very niche property. We've got a good price for it. 50K over the bottom of our guide. JK: Nice. Mike: A really good result. I've just sold a really close personal friend's house as well, family friend. you want them to use you, but equally you feel the pressure, don't you? JK: massively. Mike: when you take it on and it gives textbook... No, no, no, no, Dave Warburton: Did did you do it did you do a really cheap fee as well? good. Mike: no, they're painful whack, but... JK: Mike, he's only said that because Dave doesn't know how it feels 'cause he doesn't have any friends. Dave Warburton: There it is. That that's num that's one nil to the set. JK: Yeah. Mike: But yeah, it's gone text, but I mean, we did a pre-launch for a couple of weeks and the buyer that came via pre-launch came back for a second view on our main launch with loads of other buyers and got a bit scared and paid a top price. So JK: Nice. Mike: we just had a lovely message from him this morning. We tied it up yesterday. Happy days. So yeah, JK: Yeah, nice. I love that. Mike: really, really good. Really good. Thank you, Bizzy. Lots going on. JK: Can I can I just say, mate, just it just reminded me of something when you were saying about the the sale you've got the fifty K over on. Something that I Mike: Hmm. JK: say to a lot of sellers when I I do my kind of listing presentation, whatever you want to call it, is it's how long your buyer has been in the market. Not how long you've been on the market, it's how long your buyer's been in the market, especially for the more niche stuff. Stuff that's like grade two, grade two star, you know, it's not the the The mainstream kind of, you know, forebed detached on an estate that most families are looking to upsize to, there's always people in the market for that. But when you're selling like a grade two listed manor house, whenever I see people and they're like, you know, what are you going to do differently from the other agent? Well, you know, yes, pricing is part of the issue. Yes, marketing is an issue. And we'll talk about this later on when I talk about our our week. but I always say it's not how long you've been on the market, it's how long your buyer has been in the market. But also equally, as as Tom Panos says, or I think that's his is his phrase, or maybe it's mine, but I'll claim it, is that there's nothing more expensive than having a hot buyer in front of the wrong agent. Dave Warburton: shocked that you've just stolen somebody else's friends. Mike: It's about creating urgency as well, isn't it? In the right way. I always maintain blocked viewings of the way forward, even JK: Mm. Mike: if you've only got two people. Make sure JK: Hundred percent. Mike: those two people attend one after the other and there is a small overlap. And just have the right, know what to say to the buyer at the right time to talk them up. Simple as that. JK: Hundred percent. So to Dave, how many offers are you negotiating this week? For listeners of the podcast, if you've just joined us, Dave has been negotiating seven offers for the last eight weeks. Dave Warburton: No no no no no no no no. Actually, so we've agreed three sales this week and negotiating an extra two. So we're only negotiating JK: Nice. Dave Warburton: two offers at the moment, JK. but three of them have been tied up. So I guess it I guess you could say it was five. which is one more than my usual number that I always spout on the podcast. instruction levels are are really good, you know, I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, three, fourteen. in photography. and we've launched a few as well this week. So we're we're we're still really busy. whilst I was on JK: That's great, mate. Fourteen in photography is massive. Dave Warburton: Yeah, I mean it there's a couple that's the struggle. I've got two take ons today and I've got about of Tom Silatus lads. I know that you're really helping me out there and sympathising. JK: Yeah, that's really sad, mate. I hope you get better soon. Dave Warburton: No, well th thanks, lad. Thanks. but yeah, so we've got two you know, we've got two take ons today. Next week's diary is mental, trying get them in. and obviously you're balancing the weather at this time of year is really challenging. JK: Mm. Dave Warburton: So we've had a few cancellations. a couple of fallers a few weeks ago, but you know, we've we've re agreed one of those. so that starts again. Exchanges completions are tricky. You know, things just getting delayed all the time. But the you know, they are going through sort of that sort of p a p patch at the moment where the sort of spring stock is starting to complete, which is good. and obviously any sales that we're getting now we're hoping that we'll get through before the end of the year. So the pipelines, you know, the best it's been. or on market fees are the best they've been. I can't really complain to be honest with you. You you know, you're gonna get the odd thing. And there's a there's a few other distractions as well within the business that have taking the wind out of myself a little bit, but that's just a state agency, isn't it? You crack on. You've got get on get JK: Yeah. Dave Warburton: on with it. It's not always rosy, unfortunately. And when there are issues, they always tend to come in groups, don't they? So there's like four or five things JK: hundred percent. Dave Warburton: that I could really do without at the moment, but you know Mike: especially when there's a full moon. Dave Warburton: and but just gotta crack on, haven't you? Just gotta get on with it. so JK: it's a hundred percent. You're like, that wasn't so bad and then somebody else comes in and goes, ooh, ooh, and you're like, Ugh Dave Warburton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you you wouldn't have it any other way at the end of the day. You know, you'd JK: Well that's it. That's why you sign up to, you know, running the business. You know, it looks easy from the outside and you know, there's that analogy of, you know, looking like a swan, isn't it? You look graceful across the water, but underneath your legs are paddling like mad. people just don't see what actually people want where you've got to and your success, but they don't want to do the work. They don't want to have to go through the struggles that you kinda go through to get there. Dave Warburton: I like that swan analogies, AK. JK: Thank you, mate. That I made that up myself. definitely didn't steal that from somebody else. Dave Warburton: How's your week been, JK? How's your week been? JK: yeah, my week. yeah, I mean, you know, as obviously been speaking to you and and story and Michelle, like sort of behind closed doors. Like but it's been a challenging few weeks, sort of personally and professionally, really. but as I as I kinda said to you guys, just keep moving forward. When you get stuck in a rut and bad stuff happens personally, professionally, you just Have to just keep moving forward. You can't sit there, dwell on it, and get upset about it. You've just got to get cracking with it. but you know, it it's there there are positive things happening. So I was just saying to Mike when we were catching up off air. we've just signed up a development of eight new builds. and there's that they'll be ready to complete Q1 twenty-seven. so that was a really nice one to get that got that yesterday. Yeah, a couple of bits and pieces kind of in in the pipe. We've had a really good response to our latest not on the market letter update. I say letter update, our market update. We've changed it, the format slightly. with sort of testing and and measuring that and that's been received really, really well. but that yeah, that seems to be going well. I actually went to London on Monday to meet up with the off market community, organized by Matt Addison Smith. Yeah, I mean, and that was a that was a that was quite good actually. I mean, it was I was in a room, well, it was actually a terrace in London, but in a room full of people that I'd never met before. and to be honest, whilst I am quite outgoing and quite a confident person, like I I didn't know any of these people. So I was thinking to myself, you know, part of me was like, should I just cancel and sack it off and you know, I I won't I won't go. but then, you know, I thought, you know what, why not? Just, you know, what have got to lose? so yeah, w made my way to London on my own. and yeah, met Mike: you JK: some really good people. so yeah, thanks to to Matt for organizing. Matt, Matthew Addison Smith for for organising. We're gonna get him on the pod again for round two at some point soon. but met some really, really cool people. met chap called Tim Phillips. I don't know if you've come across him before, Mike. he's he's quite active. I you're in the group as well, aren't you? the off market group Mike: Yeah. JK: and she's quite active in there. But first person I met, you know, and and the thing is you go to these sometimes, you know, we we've been to agency events before. Obviously, you know, you're part of TCA. So you come to TCA and you get accustomed to what TCA is like and you kind of know the people that are there. But sometimes, you know, I've gone to some industry things before, interacted with some agents and sometimes some of them people are dicks. And I I was thinking I can't be asked to stand on a roof terrace in London and like be part of a dick swinging competition about who's done more and who's done this. And first person I met was Tim Phillips. And honestly, you won't meet a nicer bloke. Honestly, he absolutely phenomenal guy. so humble, like great mareteer. he sells sort of grade two. well necessarily great too, but like he's kind of the country house guy across the country, worked for Savals, you know, done the kind of corporate thing. Like like many of us have, you know, like you with Foxtons, and I'm sure we'll dive into that later on as we sort of get into the pod. but yeah, really, really nice guy. He probably wasn't won't listen to this, but he was a really, really top guy. we had a really great conversation. had a guar chat with a guy, a guy called Sully, who brought, I think he brought Nest Seekers over to one of the guys that brought Nest Seekers over to the UK. to have a good chat with him. met Sarah Young from Prime Property. so she does like a buyer acquisition and search. she's got a portal she started up recently just for sort of the higher end homes. but yeah, no, it's it was it was Mike: you JK: a good meetup and so it was nice to kind of push myself out of my comfort zone little bit. Whilst I'm okay speaking in front of people and this, that and the other, I've never really been to many events where I've just been on my own. I've always been with someone. So I've always kind of had a backup person to talk to. I've just got got myself out there, had some good chats, made some good connections and I'll definitely be going to to the Christmas one. But right, enough about my long-winded week. I think we're 10 minutes in already and we haven't even got into Mike: you JK: what we going to talk about. So, Mike, you're our very special guest this week. And that we thought it'd be great and we're trying to get you on for a while, but we know you're a busy man. and just your journey that, you know, we've had a small part to play and and a small piece of, I just think, you know, is is is incredibly inspiring. Mike: Thank you. JK: and I just think, you know, you you guys, you you know, you and Ollie and and the team, Morgan, you you've You just I look look from a distance and you just you know the great machine that you've built, you know, you've got Frank Modern, we've got you've got Parry and Grace, and so you've just kind of like I I just feel like you've got all bases covered. and having listened to you from, you know, when we first met and where you're at now, like the commitment you've had to sort of self-improvement and improving the business, like I think's been like inspirational for anyone to look at. You know, you look at where you know you've come from corporate background like much of us have, to what, you know, you guys have created. I I think, you know, you should be should be super proud. I'm sure you are. but yeah, like enough of me. Talk us through the journey. Like where where for anyone that doesn't know you, what's your name? Where'd you come from? And yeah, talk us through it. Mike: My name's Michael Perry, so I'm bit hoarse as well today. Yeah, so we're based just outside of Stamford in Lincolnshire. It's actually the meeting point of five counties. Lincolnshire, Rutland, Northamptonshire, Leicestershire, Cambridgeshire, which is always fun. We've moved back here five... and a half years ago after stints in Yorkshire and London. And my wife and I decided to go into business together. yeah, yeah, JK: Dangerous. Mike: yeah, we haven't fallen out though, in fairness. Ended up having a sort of a new found respect, I think, for each other, which was really good. We started completely blind when we moved back. didn't really... we didn't really know where to go. We looked at transactional volumes and initially decided on Peterborough for all its perceived faults. It's got a high turnover of property. There is a lot of affluence around Peterborough and in certain parts of it. And... Yeah, that's, we're here now. mean, I think when we set up, were 60, about 60 agents in, in Peterborough. And, it was hard getting going during a lockdown. and normally in the, in the past, I left an office for, you know, would be solvent within six to nine months. I think for, for Frank Modden, it was, it was longer than that. was about a year and a half, JK: Yeah. Mike: to two years. to be consistently in the green. JK: Yeah. Mike: But we built it in the right way. We didn't run before we could walk. we built, we're very proud of what we built. We've got a good reputation. And the Frank Modern brand operates in the, mainly the premium middle space, I would say. JK: Yeah, yeah. Mike: So our sweet spots, 300 to 600. JK: Yeah. Mike: And then, Paring grace we brought in because we started getting out to far more expensive homes and we just felt rather than split our brand, sorry, rather than stretch our brand and confuse our clients, we'd maybe take a slightly more painful option and split it. JK: Yeah. Yeah, well and I think we'll unpack that as kind of we go on because I think that's a really brave thing to do. And I know it's something that obviously Dave has done, some of our other members have done. It's something that I toyed with for a for a while myself as well. in terms of, you know, do we need to split the brand? And more so really because we'd kind of I mean, my journey's been I suppose different to most in that we kind of started in the lower end with low, low fixed fees. And then we've managed to get to a place where then we were sort of upper end with with high fees, but then we're still getting the odd sort of, I suppose, mid to lower end valve. So like, you know, for that near it here is probably three to five hundred. and to be honest, you know, the getting ten grand plus that on a house at three fifty, like it's good business. You know, somebody is prepared to pay it. Then then fair enough. but it was just, you know, there was a little bit of a reluctance, I think, in the beginning from certainly the team as well, because you know, you get used to being the agent that does one and a half percent. You know, you're used to the agent that does this and does that. And it's kind of taken everyone out of their comfort zone and committing to improving and and being better. and then just going back, I want to take a couple of steps back from what you said, because I I I joked about it about you being brave with setting up the business in the beginning with Morgan. and I I actually I s I said that and then when I said that I actually thought to myself, well, hang on a minute. Like some of the most successful businesses I know are husband and wife teams. so for example, stories like Ian and Alex, that that was them in those two in the beginning. Dave and and his his wife, Sabrina. Like Sabrina has has an active role in the business in terms of, you know, staging, styling, obviously. a lot of stuff that she helps up behind the scenes as well. And it just got me thinking actually about all the people that are in the room in TCA, like, you know, the the sort of, I suppose, husband and wife teams, you know, partner teams. and I suppose sometimes there can be that temptation where, you know, and I I'm not in that position because it it is literally just me. but I often think like, if my other half was in the business, like given her skill set, like she would be really good. and I suppose my my thing would be, you know, do you end up taking work home a lot as well? Or do you have like a real strict like barrier, or is that hard to do? Mike: We definitely take it home. We definitely discuss things. Because we care. Because JK: It's your baby though, right? Mike: we care. Yeah. I mean, Morgan's role in our business is the sales progression. She runs that team. We have two people in that team now. That's her disc profile. That's her specialty. I mean, yeah. JK: Yeah. So was she an S and a C, is she? Yeah. Mike: And she's, yeah, I she's world class at what she does. I've not come across a better sales progress and she learned from scratch. She was working in HR. JK: So can I guess? Are you a D I? Mike: Yeah. JK: Same here. I think most business Mike: you JK: owners are. There aren't many S S C like because I I think we we've talked about it on the pod before. like myself, Ian, Michelle, Dave, like we've we've all got sort of different parts of that profile. like I mean Ian are I suppose are more DIs. and I think they Dave it has a bit of of everything really. Like he's kind of a could he's a he's a thinker, like very clever guy. He's he he's he's had to disappear a bit, I'm sure you'll come back to it shortly. but he's he kind of reigns, you I we always kind of joke that me and Ian just rush and implement and get get going with it and then it you know, sort of iterate as we go. whereas Dave is kind of very methodical, thinks about it all very calm, calculated, and then You it might take a little bit longer to get there, but he's thought it through and it it kind of his his version one is a lot more polished than say minor Ian's. but we've kind of got there by iterate but obviously having worked together like, you know, with the likes of Michelle as well, like polishing what we're doing. I mean, you know, you can you even if you stand back from a distance, Michelle's had a big part of what stories have built. you know, with the training and everything in the background and it it's you know Success is no accident when it comes to that. that's you know, a lot of hard work, training and commitment into improving the team has gone in. so obviously you've got Frank Modern and now you've got Parry and Grace, which I'm all right right I don't again, I should have probably asked you this off air, but I'm right in thinking it's it's yourself and Ollie in Parry and Grace. Mike: Yeah, I mean, we've got we've got an infrastructure across across the company. So, you know, obviously, we have the sales progression element of it is dealt with JK: Yeah. Mike: still by Morgan, just with a slightly different hat on. And, yeah, we drafted in one of our other senior negotiators as well into Barry and Grace to help with inquiries and what have you. So we can make use of the efficiencies between the two businesses. JK: So how how's that gone? How's that launch gone? Because obviously, Mike: have kept them separate. JK: you we'll we'll talk a bit about Frank Modern in a second and what you've done on fees there. But I'm really Mike: Yeah. JK: interested for anyone that's listening to this, because obviously it most weeks we get between four and five hundred listeners. And a lot of those are agents. And a lot of the feedback I get is silent from people like I get the odd message on LinkedIn or Facebook or sometimes WhatsApp or sometimes I've had a call. And people are always interested in in in kind of the journey. And there's there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that aren't necessarily in the premium space, but are in the kind of, you know, some a lot of people are in the lower end space, wanting to get into higher end homes. There are people in lettings that would like to add a premium sales business to their brand. like what what just talk to me a little bit what what that journey's been like for you from Frank Modern, which is, you know, kind of A machine, you know, in in and I mean that in a real kind of respectful way in terms of, you know, it it is a a really good solid business w much more volume based. what's that been like going from kind of that super volume to again the sort of premium space? What how how's that all worked? Mike: Yeah, it's taken time to get used to the discussions you're having with clients as well, because your pitch is slightly different really. I think for us, it was very clear that we needed to split the brand because we don't want to swim against the tide in business, do we? And we make money from selling houses on volume, on mass at one and a half, two percent between three and six hundred grand. So JK: Yeah. Good business. Mike: We don't want to set fire to that. We don't want to set fire to that. We sell 15, 20 of those a month and that keeps us going very well. I was repeatedly, mainly down to the TCA marketing and the direct mail approach. We were continually getting invited out to premium homes in excess of a million pounds. And you could get on with the individual and then they'd go on your website and they'd see a starter home on there that you're selling. or in a state house at 400 grand and they'd sort of question whether you're the right agent for them. JK: Yeah. Mike: Equally, I was going out to properties at four or 500 grand and they'd been on our website and seen a couple of manor houses at a couple of million pounds. And they're thinking, we weren't sure whether to call you out. We weren't sure whether you'd want to sell this house. So to me, that was the writing on the wall to split the brands. JK: Success leaves clues, right? Mike: Yeah, and it is a painful option because we've built such a good reputation with Frank Modern. 300 plus five star reviews coming in all the time. To start again, it is more labor intensive. But what we've done is we've got a second premises. So we have increased cost in the new location where we want to operate. Obviously, a Google Google site as well and all that kind of stuff. JK: Yeah. Mike: So for search purposes, it's showing that you're in the area, you're operating in the area. So yeah. JK: Yeah. Which I do think it's important. Mike: I did, I did, I mean, I suppose around here it's interesting because... For all intents and purposes, Frank Modern is a Peterborough based business. JK: Yeah. Mike: And if you're wanting to operate in some of the other areas such as Rutland, I think people here would want to deal with someone that's operating in based locally. So JK: Yeah. Mike: I think it is worth the investment for our circumstances. Other agents, it depends on the areas, doesn't it, you're operating in and what your existing brand looks like, I think. JK: Kind of, yeah. I think there there's arguments that you can make for both. I mean, we've you know, we're we're in a place called Master Mortane, and that you know, that was put on the map by Captain Tom. But, you know, being absolutely real about it, it's not you know, if you said name an affluent village in Bedfordshire, it wouldn't be top of the list. it's very much a working class village that has kind of been built around. and I think the Mike: Yeah. JK: the building in the village has kind of raised the price and raised the profile of the village. Mike: you JK: but there aren't, you know, there's probably in a village of Crikey, a few thousand houses, there's probably two or three, over a million. Mike: Yeah. JK: if that. but what we do have on a doorstep is Wobon. and then obviously they then you we can you know we we've been in established for best part of 15 years. but Interestingly, a lot of the people that we go out to in the upper end have never heard of us prior to the market updates that they got. and but ma main reason being is because you know if you sell it a I don't know, a two or three million pound house, a lot of the time is that home's turning over every fifteen, twenty years. A lot of those clients have been in that house for a long time. And you know, you get the odd exception where somebody's moving for work or somebody's done the house up and needs to move or wants to pull the money out of the house that they've made. but generally, you know, the the longer standing homes, you know, they sold their house 15, 20 years ago with whoever was around 15, 20 years ago. And you know, there's the whole education process of you know, what the market is like now, what changes, you know, what what What I need to do to market my house in the modern era? but yeah, where we are, just going back to what I was saying, is that that generation, and I think sometimes not necessarily just that generation, but people want to know that you know, you wouldn't Mike: you JK: if you had a I don't know, a Ferrari, you wouldn't ring up QuickFit and ask them if they do a service on your car. You know, you'd look for the Ferrari dealership or the place with all the nice cars parked outside and ring them up. or drive in to go and see them. So there is a bit of that, which I'm why I think the direct mail side of things and the sort of market updates are sort of super important in terms of what we do and getting through the right doors. And there's there's no doubt in my mind that, you know, if we didn't if we hadn't committed to doing that the you know sort of four or five years ago, we certainly wouldn't be where we are now in the space of, you know, the homes that that we sell in. So Talk us through, I mean, you we talked about fees and stuff before. Like, what's been turning point for you in in the business? So, you know, great business with Frank Modern, heart, you know, decent amount of volume. But I remember we had a conversation a little while back, I it must have been maybe even nearly two years ago now. And, you know, you just put the fees up and you know, the trajectory just carried on going up and up and up for for you guys. And obviously, Parry and Grace, we can get onto as well. But, you know, what was kind of the turning point for you there? Mike: The turning point was that on the face of it, looking at our business, we were doing well, but we just weren't really making any money. We were, every month it was fairly tight and costs have gone up, haven't they? And there's not really, if you're going to do a proper job in a state agency, you can't really make money and do a proper job and charge 1%, it just doesn't work. So we actively took a decision to start increasing fees, before we joined the TCA. And I think they were slightly inspired actually, when I started listening to the podcasts, when you started them. and I joined, I joined just, just after maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think, yeah, we went, went to the first mastermind and I just looked at Toli, our business partner and I said, let's just go out and charge 2%. and see how we get on. Let's just do it, believe it. We've got the best stats in the area by a mile. It's not even close. JK: Yeah. Mike: Within 30 mile radius, no problem. So let's go and justify it. And yeah, it is more difficult. We have lost business and conversion rates have dropped a bit. But you can improve your service by doing sometimes a bit less, but getting a better reward per transaction. and I've just gone. JK: So I've got a question for you actually. Just just on that, you said about the mastermind. it just got me thinking. Sorry, I know you've got some stats there. We'll we'll we'll we'll pile into those in a second. But what would you say, just out of interest, and I I didn't ask this off air, but it just came into my mind while while you were saying that and you were talking. Like what what was it that from I suppose the mastermind that kind of just made you go, let's just do this? Like what what was it? Was it just the kind of the confidence in what you're doing? Was it anything you added in? Like what what was it? Mike: It was the confidence that you all had in you were doing it consistently. And there were certain people in the room that were on their journey to doing it as well. yeah, I mean, some of the things that you were doing and sort of professing that we do, we weren't doing, and we still managed to go out with the right mindset and charge 2%. I think a lot of it is in your head. isn't it? You kind of, it's self-defeating, isn't it? Self-sabotage when you're in the room and it's the fear of loss, isn't it? JK: Yeah. There's no magic script though, right? There's no magic script to go into the living room and go like higgledy piggledy doo and they go, yes, I'll pay two percent. Like it's that Mike: No. JK: but belief. But also equally, you know, you said it there, you know, and it it's something that gets banded around a lot now, in the industry. and I know Gatesy loves saying it as well, but charge what you're worth and be worth what you charge. And, you know, any anyone can Do a great job and well, anyone could do a job for 0.7%, 0.6%. and sometimes that's including that. And I had a conversation with a valuer not too long ago, who who wanted to join the business. And just interesting hearing the mindset of the business he works in at the moment, where, you know, the the bottom end of the market where he currently operates, everyone is it's it's a race to the bottom on feats. I can remember like turning my nose up at one percent and and thinking to myself, you know, I mean, this I'm going back eight, nine years now, where we would probably get one percent or one and a quarter percent. and thinking to myself, like, I felt dirty. And whereas now, you know, I I to hear that people are doing naught point seven percent like and and you know, if it gets it across the line, we'll do it inclusive of that as well. So naught point five percent. And these are agents that are volume models. And when the market does take a turn, you know, anyone, anyone can I mean look, my nine-year-old son could have sold houses in 2021. I think my dog probably could have done it to be fair. If I'd have just opened the door and left my dog there, I'm pretty sure my dog could have sold houses. Like it just wasn't a Mike: Yeah. JK: difficult job to do. and I just think that, you know, if you're willing to put the effort and the work in and you know your marketing's on point, Yeah, your communication's good. But like you said earlier, it is mindset. If you think you're a two percent agent, you're right. If you think you're not, you're also right. And if you don't ask, you're never gonna get. Mike: You're right and I think there's, for me it was a real shift because I've always, probably in the last 10 years before setting the business up, have been a win at all costs attitude and don't want to lose. And then you shift that from win at all costs to with or without you energy. JK: Yeah. Mike: And that's been the shift really for us. We'll state our case, we'll show the evidence. and that person in front of us is either the right person to be our customer or not and they're going to decide that. That's not our JK: Yeah. Mike: decision. JK: So talk us through these numbers. Like you say you you you done some numbers, we're talking about off air, if you're if you're happy to share those and then just maybe dive in on dive in and unpack those a little bit in terms Mike: Yeah. JK: of what that looks like and when that what that looked like before and what you think was the the shift and the change that's that's got you to where you are. Mike: Yeah, well that's, yeah, I was looking last night actually at where we've come from and where we are. So in, from 2023 to today, our average fee at the end is 65 % higher than it was. JK: Yeah, nice. Mike: And this year to date, we are slightly down on sales volume. JK: Yeah. Mike: But because our upfront fees have increased and our end fee has increased, we've actually generated more revenue. JK: Well, there go. I mean it's anyone could be a busy fool, right? and I I've certainly been there. Like again, eight, nine years ago. I mean, we I remember when we used to chase the pie chart. you know, that was the thing. I'd log on to Write Move every other day, and just see how many sales we'd done, and see what the other competition would do in our area. You know, and I remember we were like a hundred and eighty sales at one point, like probably three quarters of the way through the year. and you know, we re I think Our record was something like two hundred odd sales. and we finished third. But we had a team half the size of like number one and number two. but still massive stress. But you know, and I and I don't Mike: Stress. Stress. JK: mind saying on on on the pod that, you know, our average fee back then was but anywhere between eighteen hundred quid and two grand. And you look at where we were eight years ago selling two bed terraces and you know, three bed end terrace and three bed semis and two bed flats and one bed flats. and your average fee at that level and a conversion rate, you know, the exchange rate, I mean our exchange rate was still quite high. It was still, you know, back then it was still like 70%. but the amount of listings that you've got to put on to generate 230 odd sales, it's just, you know, and if you think, you know, your exchange rate is actually 70%, you know, you look at your withdrawal rates, you just think. How much are you putting in for, you know, let's make it easy and say 200 sales at 200 grand? sorry, 200 sales at two grand average fee, you know, that's that's a turnover of 400 grand. You know, and you look at that, and when when I think last year we were what, 80 odd sales and we turned over just under a million quid? Like, Mike: Yeah. JK: you know, it just it's completely different business. And You know, I was saying the other day when we were talking to the agents at the off market meetup. And lots of us have come from selling one and two bed terraces like Matt Addison Smith was you know, used to work in Cardiff and you know, he'd sell two bedroom starter homes at forty grand and stuff like that. And now, you know, he's in a place where you know he's selling places off market at twenty million in Surrey but it it's kind you know it's almost the same job in a lot of ways in terms of you know you you list and market and sell negotiate but as you move up the ladder so much more is required from you as a business and from you as a person in terms of the level of skill care attention detail and that that can be what separates you from the average and the rest. so what what would you say is If I if you had to pick three things that got you to where you're at now, and I'm not I'm not talking Mike: you JK: about necessarily TCA, I'm but just in general, like what would you say are three milestones or three learnings that you've hit maybe in the last two to three years that have really changed your outlook and also your results in the business? Mike: Direct mail has definitely been the thing that's really turned the needle because it gives us the opportunity to get in front of the right people, the people we want to get in front of and has increased lead generation. So certainly that would be the main thing, I would say. JK: Could I just I know I asked you for two more things, but can I just unpack Mike: Yeah. JK: that a little bit? because I just feel like so I had a conversation with an agent the other day that's thinking about doing this. but it it's it's a big financial commitment, isn't it? You know, it's not something that you can just do online and click a button and 80 letters go out and all of a sudden you're generating a million quid in fees. Like what so just just going back a few steps just quickly on that, because I I just think there's a lot of value in this. Like obviously you were doing a lot of direct mail before. you know, for the likes of Spectre, postcards, letters, like you were doing a lot of that. But when it comes to the upper end and what with what's involved and Mike: Yeah. JK: the friction involved in what you were doing, can you just take me back to like what your initial thoughts were on that in terms of the financial commitment? and the, I suppose, almost the l logistical pain of figuring out what that actually looked like. It'd be interesting to hear, like. What that sounds like from your point of view. Mike: Yeah, I remember looking at it thinking, gosh, this is very extreme. JK: Yeah. Mike: And the first wave of letters that I did, I think I did about four or five thousand. JK: Yeah. Mike: I did pretty much on my own. So I was sat in my kitchen, you know, three in the morning doing it in weekends, basically, to... because I've got commitments during the week. It was quite painful, but then you see the results. JK: What made you do that though? What what made you do that though in the beginning? Because you hadn't seen any results from it yet. Like what made you think, actually, right, I I need to do this? Like what what gave you the commitment to the consistency of doing it? What what made you believe that it was the right way? Mike: Well, I was looking around the room in the TCA and looking at what everyone's results were from JK: Yeah. Mike: carrying out this activity and thought there got to be something in this. So JK: Yeah. Mike: let's give it a go. And it was different. It is different to what we do as well with the life specter, which is a frank to letter. You accept that 50 % of them go immediately in the bin. You accept JK: Yeah. Mike: that. You know, when it's a hand stamp and it's handwritten envelope, more likely to be opened, isn't it? It's is going to be opened at least. JK: Yeah. Mike: You've just got a better, better conversion rate, better ROI, I would say. We've since, it's more automated now. We have a partner that helps us with it and it does cost us more, of course. And we, like you, send about 8,000 out every quarter. JK: And that but now that you're constantly committing to it, you're finding that it's actually paying dividends for you. Mike: Yeah, yeah, we didn't, we've changed the areas we're sending them to with now we've set up the new brand, we've added areas to it that we weren't sending to before. JK: Yeah. Mike: So we are maybe a little behind on the areas that we want to focus on with Paris and Grace. And with hindsight, I probably would have just sent them to that area as well. previously. I think I just had a hang up in my mind about being a Peterborough based agent prospecting in areas where people may not want to deal with an agent from Peterborough, which is why JK: Yeah. Mike: we changed the brand and location. yeah, I think, yeah, with hindsight, I would have, I would have definitely have, prospected this area sooner. JK: I hindsight's a great thing though, right? I if I knew what I knew now, Crikey, I'd have been sending letters fifteen years ago and I wouldn't be selling Mike: Yeah. JK: two bed terraces. You know, it's one of those things in that you you learn. and then, you know, there's another classic phrase, you you earn what you learn. And the the the more you try things and the more you commit to things and you find out what works and what doesn't, then that in the end will pay dividends for you in the in the long run. so yeah, I mean, direct mail is massive. And I'm we know we're advocates for that on on the podcast and the way that we do things and what actually is in the envelope. because you know there are other people out there that do direct mail as well. There are other people that do market updates in various different forms. I think TCA we've kind of found that sweet spot between the two. You know, people talk about left brained and right brained. and, you know, it's not necessarily, you know, what what do I want to say? People when they open the letter. And or the market update and they go through it. What it does is it it it it your your market update doesn't say to people free, no obligation, valuation. We are the best agent in the area. We were open 25 days a year, like sorry, 25 hours a day, 385 days a year, you know. What you know free floor plan doesn't say any of that, but what it does is it tells people that you are Mike: you JK: the expert. in your field and your authority in that area and you are educating people on what's happening in the market, and people will make their own mind up. You know, they'll either resonate with you or they won't. You know, you you know yourself, people Mike: you JK: email in or ring in the office and go, Why on earth are you sending me these letters? I didn't ask for them. I'm not selling this property. Take me off the list immediately You know, or something else to that aggr d degree. and but then also, you know I've had people that have rang in and gone, we're not looking to sell right now, but can I just say we really enjoy your market update letters? And, you know, if we ever do come to sell, I've had one guy before ask me for another copy to give to a friend, which is part of the reason that we changed the format recently that that we were using. but I think direct mail, without a doubt, it has been a a game changer for a lot of the the TCA members. and the way that it's done. The way that it's written. And I'd like to say I'd just take full credit for the way that the direct mail is written for TCA. that is wholly down to me. It's nothing to do with Dave, who has just joined us again. Thanks for coming back, Dave. it's lovely to have you back with us. but Dave has lost his voice, I think. So it's here he's here in spirit, guys. Mike, so we talked about the first one, which was direct mail. Two more things that that really made a difference for you and and and move the needle. Mike: I suppose there are almost two together. So I've never used any property data portals before or software before. certainly being mainly by Dave, being introduced to Data Loft has been really, really good because it does help you educate your client in a lot, a much easier way and gives you a level of authority. You know, I was in a property last week in a very, very nice village just outside Stamford. They were a retired couple in their early 80s and they kept saying how brilliant the letter was that they'd received and how much they enjoyed reading it. It gave me an instant authority in the room anyway. And then you're pulling out... data, sold data for the area, a CSV file, spreadsheet, sorry, of all the transactions in the area. And you can just go through each one with a fine-tooth comb and justify the position. And we're going to get that property. It's been on with another agent and we're going to have a go at selling that. And they have adjusted their price expectations based on their conversation. certainly, Certainly Dataloft has been a really good introduction for us. We've always been realistic. We've always been realistic with the way we approach our valuation meetings. It is an advice meeting. It is not trying to entice them with silly figures. It's to be realistic and help get them the best outcome. JK: Yeah. And and and would you say that on the the sort of the valuation slash data loft side, would you say that it's made you more confident as an agent when you go into to value as well? Like Mike: you JK: do you feel like 'cause for me, and bearing in mind, you know, as as part of TCA, like it's one of the things I I learned of Dave, and I feel like it made me loads more confident. Like I mean, I already was going out there doing the biz, but It made me confident, or much more confident as an agent in that because you know, we've all got our different ways of valuing, right? And I had always been a, I suppose, a best price guide guy, like mo I guess most agents were. You know, you go into write my best price guide, but then it was always, How do I improve the best price guide pitch? So the way I used to do that was I used to hand write on the best price guide in terms of the pound per square foot that was on the market. So this is the current on market price. but then I also work out the sold pound per square foot price for the comps that were there. and then kind of just articulate it that way. But the the data loft piece of the puzzle with you know Dave's training and Dave's way of doing things, it just I feel like it's unlocked a whole new level of professionalism for for for me. which then equally transforms into confidence. So when you're in the living room, or even before you're there, you feel like you know what you're talking about in terms of value because it's it's it's backed by data. it's not backed by this is how it feels. You know, yes, you've got the the best price guide pen marks where, you know, you you've got I I I suppose a slight data feel. but being able to go in there and talk through things like Dave Warburton: Yeah. JK: You know, what what has the market done over the last six years? What what what does that look like? Dave, would you like to jump in here? Because I feel like you're the you're the data loft man. Data loft Dave. Dave Warburton: Sorry, yeah. I I I actually think that it almost gives you a suit of armour having the data loft data and but also it's not just having it, it's being able to articulate it, isn't it? So my view has always been that I am not there to value your home. The market does that. So what we need to do is just look at basically what the market is saying, what the data is telling us, and apply it to your home. And all of the subjective elements that we always talk about, putting Mike: you Dave Warburton: a valuation on a view, putting a valuation on acreage and all that sort of stuff, is is too subjective for me to say that's what it's worth. And, you know, I take acreage usually as a great example when I go to valuations. You know, if you give me two identical three 3,000 square Mike: you Dave Warburton: foot houses, say, that are both done up to really nice standards, but one of them's got an eight acre field, and the other one's just maybe got a half a football pitch size garden, well and they were both the same price, I would take the one with the smaller garden. And the reason for that is I've got n I've got no idea what to do with A takers. I've got not got the means to upkeep it. I don't want to upkeep it. it's not for me. It's just a headache. However, if the next person that walks in has five horses and needs some stables, well their perception of value is going to be way higher than mine. So how can you put a valuation on that? Equally, people, you know, if you talk about a let's take at the the three thousand square foot house example again. So if you've got a three thousand square foot house, let's well, let's just say we've got th two three thousand square foot empty shells. And JK, you've got a couple of hundred thousand, Mike, you've got a couple of hundred thousand, and I say to you both, go and kit them out. And JK, you've do you've got a couple of kids, you decide, you what, I'm gonna make mine very family friendly, I'm gonna make Two or three reception rooms downstairs. I need four bedrooms upstairs and a couple of ensuites and we'll have a main family bathroom. And then Mike, you've got, you know what? I we love open plan living. So downstairs we're gonna have a massive open plan space. We're gonna have a study because I like to work from home. But other than that, it's gonna be pretty much open plan. And upstairs I only need three bedrooms. So I'm gonna do three massive bedrooms Mike: Thank Dave Warburton: with three full size ensuites, no main bathroom. So what you've now got are two houses exactly the same size, but with very different target markets. So just because JK's has got four bedrooms and yours has only got three bedrooms, Mike, doesn't mean that ultimately JK's is more valuable than yours. It just might have a bigger target audience because we've got more people looking for four bedroom family homes. So it's all about then how do we position it for the right target audience? Fast forward, who's buying this house? Work backwards then, now build the marketing campaign to go and find that person. And and the value at this point in time is Is less relevant. You know, we've got to think about who's b who's actually buying it. You know, the market will deter d determine the valuation. Now don't get me wrong, if the house is 700,000 and you go in and put it on at 500 and massively undersell it, that's that's Mike: you Dave Warburton: not gonna work. You need to know what you're doing. but the data is very much your suit of armour, it shows you exactly what's happening in a in a key area. I I went to one yesterday, it's a new build property, it's a three bed detached, very modern, open plan living downstairs, stunning. Three bedrooms upstairs, one of them's decent size, the other two are relatively pokey. It's in like a semi-rural location, lovely views. There are no comparables for it whatsoever, but the price per square foot data's there, and the view and and all that sort of stuff. The the the valuations that he's he's had are so wild. Like he's had he's had them as low as six hundred and as high as eight hundred and fifty. So he's and he's had about five or six different people out. And I I was about the fifth last night and I said to him, You need to stop getting estate agents out. W what you need to do is take away the the pricing conversation. Take that away and then look at how you want your house to look online. You know, how do you want it to be marketed? What do your photographs need to look like? Is there a video? Is there a pre launch strategy? Does your agent have a network of buyers? How are they going to communicate with you? You know, all this sort of stuff. Look at the track record. What can they show you? And then maybe find a ask how they've arrived at the number they're getting at. Because to be Frank, the majority of people, will take a best price guide and they'll compare four and three bed houses when these are just not the same. So when I'm able to demonstrate where I've arrived at my evaluation and then quite honestly say to him, to be quite honest with you, John, I I I don't know. Until we put it out there, I won't know. But what I can do here is a full, thorough pre-launch campaign. We can stick it out to a huge audience. I've got an agent network. I've got loads of buyers in the area that have viewed other houses that I can speak to about yours and get them round here. You know, you've not quite finished it yet. I'm happy to do some pre launch on it and see what interest we can drum up before you've put carpets in even and see if there's any you know, that he starts thinking, right, okay, yeah. And I that's why I always say to clients, take the conversation about numbers away and then just focus on who you want representing you because anybody can come in and tell you it's worth a million, charge you half a percent, but then take a load of shit photos on the phone. What I'm proposing here is that we do make your house look spectacular, expose it to the widest possible audience, and actually get your market value. So understanding the data is one thing, being able to articulate it is another and get your client to understand exactly what's happening. And that's the least they deserve. They don't need someone to go in and just tell them what they want to hear. They need to be told the truth and they need to be set up with a proper campaign to get their house sold. The trouble is lots of people don't know how to use the data and and don't use it to their advantage. And that's what I strongly believe it is. It's a huge advantage. JK: Mike, do you think what was the third thing from your from your list? Mike: Well, just before we go on to that very quickly, I just wanted to say that the data loft element as well, think what it does is it detaches your opinion, doesn't it, from things. You're putting it as almost in the third person. And it also tees up potential changes in price in future if you need to, because you're not married to the valuation. It isn't your valuation, it's the market's valuation. Dave Warburton: Absolutely. Mike: And I found that in the premium space, it is more subjective and you do have to be a bit more passive on the price. When you're operating in the lower and mid, it's pretty obvious what it's worth and you can be a bit more forthright in your view of what it is worth. So yeah, that's my two peneth. The final, I suppose it's presenter led videos. that we've really doubled down on. We were doing some beforehand, but we mainly, we had a Matterport camera that are still knocking around in the office. I need to sell it. JK: yeah. Same. Same. If you find someone who wants to buy another one, let me know. Mike: Yeah, and you get people ringing up saying, I've just seen a damp patch in the bay window. What's JK: Yeah. Mike: that? And yeah, well, that kind of thing. And I just found that... Go on, sorry. Dave Warburton: It it I was just gonna say it's it it's interesting you say that because I've always thought that because it it's it's it's it's been an objection handler in a way sometimes because if you've got an agent that goes in and says they do virtual tours, what they mean usually is it's gonna be matter port or one of the giraffe cameras or whatever. And one of the things that I used with sellers is to say that the Matterports, the giraffes, they're almost too good. in the sense that they give people a walk around of the house without being there. And actually people buy an emotion, they buy on feeling. So you you're taking that away. Whereas a presenter led video allows me to sell your home, not just list it for sale. So it it's a really important distinction that people say, Whoa, we do these Mataport virtual tours, they look amazing and then you might look at it. But it's a great example, Mike. You know, if somebody zooms in and sees a bit of a damp patch on the under the window that might be completely innocent, you know, they they might rule it out. Before they've seen anything else. Mike: Yeah, and I think with the effort that you put into a presenter-led video, you can repurpose the content. You can use it to not just promote your homes, but promote how you market your homes to prospective sellers. JK: Mm-hmm. Mike: It's a win-win, isn't it? JK: That that's how we we actually that development that we won yesterday, the developer said he goes, you know, I you know, I s I have interest. Obviously, we we had work with them before, but obviously, you know, it's the bet one of the best roads in in the town. Like what I asked, I said to him, you know, what was the main kind of factor? He goes, Well, I see all your stuff on social media all the time that pops up, you know, the the bit with the mic, he said, but also the stuff you put on LinkedIn, the houses that you sell and the presenter led tours, you know, and my my wife loves Phil and Kirsty. And, you know, you're not quite Phil and Kirstie, but you know, you're way better than anybody else is, in tur like certainly locally, and in Manchester. but sorry, I had to get that in. I had to get that in. but Mike: you JK: yeah, that that was kind of one of the deciding factors, you know, of how we market and what we do. And that he he kind of bought into that and said, you know, we we just we sat down and said, who's the the agent to sell The best houses on the best road for for us here. you know, and they came up with a short list of three agents. And when they looked at all three and they said, look, what we wanted to do is get you out, speak to you first. and then, you know, as long as we could, we could do a deal, we just wanted to get cracking with you because that's we you are who we wanted to use. and you know, we had our kind of B and and C choices afterwards. And a lot of that is down to those videos and quality and marketing. You go back to wh whilst you weren't here, Dave, we were just talking about those initial podcasts that we first did when we first started the TCA podcast when Mike first started listening, when it was all about things like, you know, how do you look, you know, the your marketing, all of those bits feed into it. And Mike was saying, and it it's so true, where, you know, people look at your website and if they've you can have the best letter in the world land on somebody's doorstep. And if they go onto your website and see one bedroom flat, two bedroom terrace, iPhone photos, bins on the drive, cars on the drive, no attention to detail, they're just not going to call you out. However, you know, you could arguably send a not so good letter out and they land on your website, check you out, they're curious. The first thing they see is, you know, a grange at three million quid, marketed exceptionally well with presenter lay video, twilight photography. you know, and bespoke brochures and they go, hmm, okay. These and you know, our latest market update, the feedback I've had from a lot of people there is on the feel of it. So they've been getting the letters for a little while. but it's the tangible feel, like cause I just said out of interest, you know, what was the catalyst? And they just said like it just felt like you'd put a lot of effort into this market update that had gone out. And if you were gonna do that much effort into something where you're going to get nothing almost in Dave Warburton: Mm. JK: return. Little do they know. you know, what are you going to be like when you market my house? And Dave Warburton: Yeah, hundred percent. JK: one, we've we're just about to sign up at 1.25, been on the market with another agent, floor plan's got no measurements on it. It's got the worst speed ramp video in the world ever. almost makes you feel sick. so many spelling mistakes in the listing. Like I mean you you name it. It's a classic I sell two bedroom terraces and I've, well, I'll have a go at selling this 1.25 million pound house. And they just hashed it together. but that got me through the door. And it's that, you know, there's a there's a great book by a guy called Roy Sutherland. I'm not sure if you guys have heard it, Dave Warburton: No. JK: but it's it's called Alchemy. Mike: Sure. JK: my my mate Simon's actually got a signed copy, I think. but what what it does is it it it makes you think through the psychological perception of everything that you do. From a marketing perspective. And for example, the market update in question that we've got, it's how it feels in someone's hand. So you mentioned earlier, Mike, the stamp and the handwritten element of the letter, you know, being up in the kitchen at 3 a.m. in the morning on Saturday, handwriting letters and stamping them. Like when that comes through somebody's door, they they automatically, before they've even opened it and read what you've put inside. They're in their mind, they've gone right. Well, somebody's handwritten this to me to my house. It's stamped, it's not franked. So who could it be from? You know, is it is it from a friend? Is it from somebody local? Who is this person? and then when they open it and they realize, okay, right, market update, what's what's this all about? you know, what you then put in that letter helps them shape what they feel about you and your company. Before they've even thought about selling or going on your website and checking you out. Everything throughout that process, you're being judged in their mind. So, you know, the what does your logo look like? First thing they see, how thick is the paper? What's the quality of the paper like? You know, that these are all things that these are all judgments that that person's mind is making about you, your business, before they've even read the first sentence, which is why. I really went to town on the latest update that I'm testing. and I you know, it's it's it's worked really well so far. I was just saying Dave to Mike, you know, we've had eleven responses so far when they've just gone out and it's it's one of our, I suppose, best initial responses and we're in a position at the moment where unfortunately I can't get a val in for about two weeks. yeah, Dave Warburton: Yeah. JK: I've I've I've even talked about opening up, maybe doing a Sunday at some point and maybe nipping one in there somewhere for some of the bigger ones that I've got just to try and get out there. but you know it's it's y the quality of your marketing is Dave Warburton: Well, a hundred percent. And and that's what I mean, that'll get get them to you. And then obviously Mike talking there at presenter led tours, that just that for me is the biggest game changer as well, you know, 'cause like you've said, JK, we're t we've we've we've spoken about how you look and direct mail and all that sort of stuff, that that'll I mean the di like you said, the direct mail will get them will get them there, but if you don't look like what they want to see, then you're not gonna win the business for the the way to call you out. But w once you're there, it's like what do you do? And for me, the presenter led video tours are massively game changing because you're building your personal brand within your brand. if you've got other valuers that are working for you, they can build their personal brand within your brand. And there's no there's no question, people instruct people, don't they? At the end of the day, it's not always the name above the door that they want. They want the person that they've seen in that video. They they want that person to showcase their home. and I think that presenter led video tours along with the short reel format and Facebook lives and all that sort of stuff, they are game changing. And I'm not talking about I mean listen, how many gurus are out there talking to you about just giving market updates every day on Instagram and things like that. The y you've got to do it, you've got to do as much as you possibly can. But I I'm just talking about when you get the house, what are you doing with the house? You're there. I mean if you do it properly You know, we've we've got a I know we're all the same, but we've got home stylists that turn up before everybody else. We've then got photographers that turn up before after that and a videographer. What are you what are you showcasing? Show people what you do. You know, the the show people what goes into the day. Use video to do it and become try and get more natural. And and the the majority of people block it out 'cause they don't like how they sound or look on camera. But you s you soon get over that once you've had a few out of the way and few maybe a few nasty comments or people taking the piss, whatever it is, you again you become bulletproof. And it's absolutely game changing for your business. I I can I can honestly say that from first hand. I just think your people like what you do. It will be different. and and it's an an opportunity for you to shine, especially in an in in a new era where everybody can copy each other's photos and do floor plans and twilight photography with AI and stuff. the only way to stand out really it two probably twofold really stand out is you personally, what you showcase, and the world class service that you offer. I think that you know, those are the two things you've got to double down on. JK: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. Mike: You can't clone yourself, you? So it's always your USP, it's Dave Warburton: Yeah, a hundred percent. Mike: you. How you treat your clients and the advice you give them. Dave Warburton: Mm. And that that'll that'll lead to referral after referral after referral as well. But obviously we can go down a rabbit hole here, that's not a lead gen strategy. But I think once you've you know your direct mail is in place and you look right and you've got your parental ed video tours and you know your stuff, you you become the authority. It it can be game changing. it can be game changing. JK: So I think that's probably a good place to call it for this week. It's been an hour-long special. it's been a great conversation. more so when you weren't here, Dave. thanks. Dave Warburton: I was gonna say, he's had a hour long, I think I've been here about fifteen minutes. JK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like two hours. so we but a really great chat. Mike, it's you know, it's a pleasure to have you part of of TCA and to see the the growth and the journey that you've been on, you know, over the last couple of years is incredible. And then you know, it's nothing short of hard work and, you know, your own sort of self development really that that's led you there. and yeah, as always, it's it's it's been a great Great pod. I think there's a lot of value for people there that, you know, certainly if they're sitting on the fence and thinking about their journey into the sort of mid to upper end of the market, you know, you need to take action, but you can't do it on a shoestring. That's one thing I'm I'm I'm gonna say. We get a lot of people that ask us, you know, I'm I'm not sure I can I can afford this. You need to commit to it financially. It's a big financial investment to commit to going into the mid to upper end of the market. It's not something that you can do lightly on a whim. It really needs to be done properly. Dave, you got anything to add on that? Dave Warburton: I just I well I was just gonna say if if you if you if you're good and you believe in your ability, you will succeed at this. There's no question. But you've got to back yourself. I mean th the the the big thing for me when I changed my outlook was and I knew I was I I knew I was a really good estate agent. You know, I've got the experience and and I feel like I know what I'm talking about. But I needed to know how to make that next step to elevate myself to get into this kind of market. You know, that was like five or six years ago. How do I how do I do it? So I'm gonna go and learn from some of the best people in the country. That's what I did. I went and spoke to some people who I thought were doing it right, charging the right fees, and surrounded myself around those people. I met two dickheads along the way, Ian and JK, and it You know, it took me on a different path as well, you know. But but I think you've just gotta you you can't like you just said, you can't go into something like this dealing with these types of customers, these types of houses on a shoestring. You just can't do it. You can probably just about get away with it, because I've done it with two bed terraces and three bed semis and things like that. But the minute you start doing that, that's where what you'll become known for. So if you've got a real ambition for getting into this market. And you you you're confident in your own ability. I think that's really important because I'm gonna be straight, I don't think it's for everybody, you know, not everybody is is right for it. But if is is my internet connection not very you've gotta remember though, JK, JK: bit like a solid internet connection. That's not for everyone either, is it? Nah. Dave Warburton: it will be recording me. So you're probably gonna sound a little bit silly now. JK: Okay. Well, just for the record, there is a GoFundMe out there. Get Bolton Broadband forward slash David Warburton. So donate to the cause. Dave Warburton: Listen, it's it's it's recording on my device. So people have been listening to me and they'll be hearing this perfectly and you'll just hear it look a little bit silly. JK, so just wait to point that out. And you look stupid anyway. So JK: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Dave Warburton: yeah, so what I can't remember what I was saying, but I I think you've you JK: It wasn't important. Dave Warburton: you've got to you've got to back yourself. You have got to believe in your ability. And unfortunately that will come with a financial commitment. You know, and I'm not talking about the membership at TCA, I'm talking about you need to go and back yourself and have a budget to go and market yourself properly. JK: Yeah, hundred percent. Hundred percent. Well I think that's a great place to call it this week. Mike, thanks so much for coming on, mate, and sharing your your story or part of your story. looking forward to seeing you next week at the Mastermind. anything else anyone else wants to add before we bid everyone good day? Dave Warburton: All good. Mike: Yeah, my pleasure. I'm looking forward to next week. Be good. Dave Warburton: Me too. JK: Perfect. Well thanks everyone for listening and we will see you all next week. Dave Warburton: Peace guys. Mike: Cheers.