Latest / Growth After Headcount / Two People, $1.2M ARR, No Sales Team — Adam Holmgren (Fibbler) #009

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Two People, $1.2M ARR, No Sales Team — Adam Holmgren (Fibbler) #009 · Growth After Headcount

• Haris: Adam, welcome. Adam Holmgren: Good to be here, Harris. Haris: Cool. You hit recently a one million ARR milestone. I think what's also very impressive. You are only two people and but let's maybe start simply. tell me a bit about yourself and Fibler. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, great milestone by the way. It feels like it feels like you need to hit the million dollars of ARR to to feel like you're a real company, right? So so I feel like now now we are getting there. but I mean I've been for ten or twelve years now in B2B marketing, specifically more like in the scale-ups, in the startup scene, but never been a founder really. And then a few years ago I I stumbled across this frustration that I that that I had in kind of the attribution space and Primarily with LinkedIn ads at the time. So I kind of started building something for my own company at the time, which then kind of evolved into Fibriller. So this is like the we we started it on the side of our kind of full-time jobs and did that for like I don't know, one and a half, almost almost two years. because like when you have a family, we're two founders, right? We have families, you you're not really willing to risk it all. but You're also able to kind of do these things on the side now, and you can kind of test the hypothesis that your product actually has a fit in the market. And we kind of rather quickly found a really firm product market fit. I think, and that's been part of our success. And then that of course allowed us to move into full-time and and so on. But I yeah, I would really urge anyone to kind of take the same kind of journey we did. Like you can, when you are working full-time at a company, you have a lot of time. Outside of that, right? That you can spend on things that you believe in, and you know, sooner than later you might experience that you're able to do it full time and kind of bring all your energy into that. So that is really what happened to us. And this is the first time myself as a marketeer is kind of selling to other marketeers, which has also been an incredible experience. I mean, it's much easier when you understand a persona that deeply and kind of sell to them as well. yeah. Haris: no, I think the beginning point is already very interesting for anyone aspiring to also become a founder, right? You don't need to go all in or nothing, which sometimes Adam Holmgren: No. Haris: in your early twenties after your studies, of course, like let's go. Adam Holmgren: Exactly. Haris: But you mentioned you have children, you have a family, etcetera, your risk appetite might be a little bit differently. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, I mean i if I if I would have been twenty or twenty-five, I would probably have gone all in and then it wouldn't you know, I could always move in with my parents, right? If it went to but it's it's different today. I also believe I wouldn't be the same founder when I was twenty or twenty-five as I am today. I believe that, you know, I have a lot of experience in the field that I'm kind of selling into, and I think that helps kind of the trust and the kind of backing the product as well. So so I I do think You know, if you are thirty plus, I you know, thirty five, sometimes when you read on LinkedIn, right, you you only read about these eighteen year olds that starts these massive companies, but it's never too late. Like like I mean experience is also a good thing. we we shouldn't forget that. Haris: I think this point about domain expertise, we will touch about that later. I think that's extremely critical in nowadays times. But first you are a marketeer, right? So you started coding now, but with the help of AI Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: tools, I guess? Like how was that beginning? Adam Holmgren: Yeah, I mean it it's crazy. Like in the beginning, when we started, I think it was around three years ago when we started actually building the first MVP and thinking about it. And that was a little bit before the boom of AI tools. So obviously, my my co-founder is the technical one, he's been a developer for many years. He did that. It probably took him a year to actually get an MVP ready. And he he tells me now, like, today it would have taken me two weeks to get, you know, the years worthy of the MVP that we did back then. So Only that is insane to me. And then obviously as you know as time went along, we we experienced this rapid AI burst. Cloud Code specifically has been massive for us. When I was able to kind of you know, today I would say that I work more with developing product features than you know our CTO and developer does. He more, you know, I I do them and kind of finishes the the features and so on, and then he makes sure everything works with the databases, API calls and so on, which I still think is very critical because that's kind of the the rel reliability of the product. But I as a marketeer can kind of we don't have to go back and forth about this is how how I want it to be designed. You should check our messages in the beginning. You know, he sent me something and was really happy with the results, and I was like, This is terrible. and now I can kind of develop it fully and do a feature and then just send it to him, make sure it works. And it's like Haris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam Holmgren: it's so brilliant. And and also for him, like it's so much easier for him to, you know, develop and he doesn't have to think about what I mean or anything like that. So yeah, it it it truly feels crazy. And it's also one of the reasons why we can be fewer people, I think, is that everyone can be semi-technical these days. I still think you need some sort of extra technical capabilities to to make sure that you're kind of reliable long term, right? But I yeah, I I still think everyone at the company should be should be in the weeds with the product. Haris: No. It's like the show don't tell becomes a really new meaning here. You literally Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: can build the feature and show him this is what Adman and he's like yeah now I get you instead Adam Holmgren: Exactly. Haris: of like describing it and trying to put it in maybe Figma file etcetera. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, it's crazy when you it's not that that far you know long away when we did that, right? When I had to, you know, I want this button to move there and you know do pictures in Figma with freaking arrows of where I wanted things to go and now I can just do it. Like it's so much more efficient and yeah, I think we've like the amount we we're we're able to kind of ship has increased so much. Like it's crazy. which is also insane because I think we ship a lot faster than you know much bigger competitors. Because that that's the thing, right? About you know having a small and lean team. You can kind of ship right away, you can pivot the product in an instant. But when you have like legacy, when you have a big product, there's so many decisions needed to happen to actually ship something. So I think that's also why we see you know small companies like us and and others kind of win in this space because we take one problem, we do it really well, and then we ship fast. And that's kind of the Haris: Yeah. Adam Holmgren: how we do it. Haris: Yeah, you can iterate much faster based on market feedback. I think a bigger team brings multiple people, they probably have also experience, but they all need to align, get to something, but they still might be wrong, and then they need to correct the mistakes. And you guys can be semi-right, you get the instant feedback, you correct it with the continuous iteration, you can move much faster and get it right, actually. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, and I I think that's generally how we do it. We you know, we develop something, we ship it right away, and then we get the feedback and kind of iterate on it rather than to, you know, ship a beta, invite beta customers to it to try it and so on. I think it's much faster to just let it out in the wild and see what happens, and people come back with feedback very quickly and then we iterate based on that. I think that's you know, i it's it's so I think it also depends a little bit. We're we're like a low ACV product, right? So people are generally more accepting. of things, this didn't work perfectly, now we're changing it. Rather than if you pay like I don't know $30,000 a year, you might not want that. So I think it's a bit dependent on what kind of product you have. Haris: Yeah. So your product is product led growth, right? Do you have any Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: motion that you have sales scores or interact? Do you have bigger plans or is it or did you fully also design we only want to do PLG? Adam Holmgren: in the beginning we definitely designed everything to work PLE, mainly because you know we were doing these full-time jobs and I realized like I would not have the times to sit in demo calls. So we designed everything with that perspective in mind. And then Haris: Mm-hmm. Adam Holmgren: over time it has definitely changed a little bit. I do a lot of calls today, but primarily with like we offer people that are in our kind of PLG free trial motion. they can you know book a call with me if they you know want to understand something more if they want to walk through and so on. So a lot of people do that. and then they end up with me and so on. But it's still like a self-serve motion. But I think like we are going to recruit, like we have been two people up until now, up until 1.2 million dollars of ARR. What we have. Now we are going to recruit our kind of first employee, if you say, that are going to take over kind of more the commercial part, because I believe that. You know, if we become a bit more sales assisted, not saying like we're not gonna be sales led, we're still gonna focus on the PLD, but at least that we can act on the signals of our free trials and kind of, these people don't seem to know what they're doing, let's contact them, or these customers are about to, you know, they haven't used us in a long time, let's contact them. So I think we can we can win a lot by just being a bit more sales assisted. We have been very like reactive. now. Like we we react when someone comes to us and not necessarily reach out because we you know we don't have the time. It's it's automated, it's self-serve. but I think we can find a a pretty good middle ground between PLE and kind of act on signals. Haris: No, exactly. And then trying to get this one person extremely efficient, that's what they heard from other Adam Holmgren: Exactly. Haris: conversation, right? And and you have signals, right? So it's not blindly as well. So it's a more targeted approach. Adam Holmgren: No, exactly. And like being able to at least like prioritize between all the because I I think we have like maybe maybe six hundred signups or so a month. and the ones I talk to today are only the ones that can actively book me or reach out to me. So it's like a handful of people from that 600, right? I would say I I think around 20% or so of our signups every month turn into actual paying customers. We have like a thr 30 day free trial. But imagine how many like I I still think that's pretty good for a self serve motion. But it's it's so many other people, the eighty percent there, where we could help them, you know, in c you know, get into that funnel. So I think we are missing out right now on the true potential that we have in kind of growth. So so that is also part of the reason why we're investing in this. yeah. Haris: Yeah no that makes a lot of sense. Like there will always be I think some form of personal touch, especially also in a solution you're still a B2B solution Adam Holmgren: Yeah, exactly. Haris: and there will be this no it's not like you buy Spotify and subscription Adam Holmgren: No. Ex no, exactly, exactly. And there's still like like what we do obviously is work with people's and companies data. And like sometimes they don't even understand their own data, right? So it it's a a bit it's always a conversation is always easiest. but it's also we need to be as efficient as possible. So trying to automate while still being personal, I guess, is the is the complex part of this. yeah. Haris: Exactly, exactly. So yeah, you can build and ship now extremely fast. You did not have a developer background. And that's what Adam Holmgren: No. Haris: we see in the market, right? Everyone has similar tools available as you do. So we can ship much faster. So I guess you serve many competitors in that space. So people who would existing players but also people trying to do the same. what do you think or see is the power now in this new AI age of marketing? Adam Holmgren: Yeah, I mean I think marketeers will be kind of the best founders, right? Like like I think they are the best fine founders right now. And I I don't think that has been the case in the past. Because everyone can ship, every can be can build the same features, but not everyone can build, you know, a brand people want to follow. Not everyone is great at distribution. I think that's main reason why we've been successful is that we've been very successful with distribution, building a brand people recognize. building a narrative people want to follow. Like the the features, like we have we have probably ten similar companies that do the same thing now as we do, but we were first to market and we, you know, we went hard on taking that spot early on and kind of spent our way into that to kind of establish us there. And if you do that and find kind of this niche in a way in a market, it's very hard to just release the same things and kind of beat you. so I think I think marketing in this AI world has like like it's more important than ever. It is what will determine if you fail or if you win. And I'm betting everything I have on our marketing engine. We when we started Fibbler, we started immediately spending 50% of our MRR that came in because we didn't take salaries back then, since we had full-time jobs. We started spending 50% of our MRR on ads right away, like distribution, getting us out there. And we did that for probably a year. until we then started taking salaries and lowered it a little bit in terms of percentage. But still we we spend a big portion of everything that comes in a month on marketing still because it's so important to to take that position for us. And when we compare ourselves today to like the Th there are probably three big companies in our space that are maybe the category leaders, and then like we are kind of on the upright, and then there's a bunch of others on the low end, of course. but we are almost at par with you know number three now at that. So so we're I think you can grow exceptionally fast if you do distribution right. That is what I'm kind of coming at here. And I I think many companies underestimate that. Haris: Yeah, no, definitely. I think also for many companies they might struggle with marketing. Let's be honest. Like marketing is hard. Developing Adam Holmgren: Mm. Haris: a brand, something that people are following, something that people engages them. Like this skills, this creativity. it's not easy and if you try you probably t ask Lord like create me a marketing plan and you probably can judge the quality of that, right? Adam Holmgren: Exactly. Yeah. Haris: So I think that's why I believe personally as well that skill is gonna trade at the premium in the coming years. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, I think so too. And and just, you know, understanding who you sell to, right? I'm selling to basically the same person as myself, as I used to be at other companies. So if I find, you know, a creative that we are creating funny, it's very likely that similar people to myself will also find it funny, right? So there there's there's easier ways to be creative and have taste when you know the audience well. And I think that's the problem sometimes, is that You know, we have founders, they create something in a space where they don't really have any experience, and then it's very hard to go really deep into that space and understand what they're talking about. So I again the experience part it plays a plays a big role here for sure. unless, like if you have big VC money coming in through your door, distribution can of course be simplified. Like you can just spend your way to to success as well. but If you don't and you know, you need to kind of rely on doing marketing well and efficiently, yeah. Haris: I think this brings back to the point of domain expertise. You know your ICP because you've been your ICP, probably still has the trace of you in it. But at the same time you bring this domain expertise to your product, compared what you mentioned with the other example right now of just a VC founder to because they saw an opportunity there. No, Adam Holmgren: Ja Haris: so you you add credibility just also with your persona to the product. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, exactly. And I mean w when we started Fibler, I think I already then had like maybe thirty thousand followers on LinkedIn, which consisted of people, you know, similar to myself. So our first like fifty customers were straight from that pool of my network. And it obviously helps because like the there's it's always hardest in the beginning. Like getting the first customers through the door, getting them to enjoy the product and then they will continue to refer and so on. But getting those initial customers that's that's hard. And I think the easiest way to do it is to already have an audience. Like so, if you're you're thinking about building something, I would start with building your audience in that space first. You can always talk about you know things you're doing day to day or what you're thinking about, or you know, building trust in that audience because I think that's what I did two years prior to me creating an actual product and becoming a founder. that it's so much easier when you launch something, you have this audience of people trusting you. And then they might be willing to at least try your product. not to say that they will love it, but hopefully they can kind of give you feedback at least and you know make you iterate and make it better. yeah, so I'm not sure Fibrill be alive today without my initial audience. Because in the beginning you don't have any money to, you know, put into it unless you have a lot of saved capital, which is tricky. yeah. Haris: No, that resonates a lot also with me, like to add to that point, right? When we started Revenue Wizard, our revenue operation consulting company. My w network was weak. Like we got some things in but there was no personal branding then decided I should write even about this on where Robs on LinkedIn. Like and I like, Yeah, four other people already doing that. Like the space needs Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: nobody else anymore. Like you also have like such beliefs going on and Adam Holmgren: Yeah yeah. Haris: then okay f like, let's do it. Like and then it took like one, two years and longer till maybe the first l proper elites, etc., came in Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: through the brand. Because you need to establish your expertise. Like everyone can say something. And you need to build up verbility and back again. That's Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: why also this brand building It cannot be also that much shortcutted with AI. Of course you can always throw money on ads, ads, etcetera, Adam Holmgren: Yeah yeah. Haris: but even of you have there's no credibility behind right the domain expertise you may be bringing in, no reference client, even then you could put on hundred thousand on ads, but for what are you advertising? Adam Holmgren: No, and it's a good point, right? Money can take you somewhere, but at some point you also gotta lean into something bigger than money, right? You you have to have some base to stand on. so I really and I think that's a problem we see with a lot of companies coming up and even even rather fast growing companies, some of the AI companies, right, they invest in marketing typically too late. Like and then they might turn the boat around and and do it well over time, but I mean I would invest in marketing. Marketing is probably the the most important thing to invest in right away because you need to set the foundation that you can then grow on. And I think that's a big mistake typically because founders don't understand. Like they take marketing as kind of a side thing, and it's like, yeah, we create a logo and create some colours and and that's that's it. they might bring in an agency which is better at least because then they're doing something. but I feel like often they don't prioritize it. Like it's just a It's just a side thought to their business in a way. Haris: sometimes I have like developer friends here now or very eager to start a company, they keep pitching Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: me some ideas and I'm like, but how are you gonna sell it? Like How are you gonna bring it to the market? And like, okay. And no other point that resonates I think big opportunities for founders that have that are focusing on marketing. I also had the conversation with Brahma, my partner at Maine Capital, which is a big private equity, I think over twelve, thirteen billion in assets under mass management. And of course only SARS and their portfolio is attacked, but one thing they notice where some existing companies has a bit an edge because coming to the point of experience, they've been in the space ten years or longer. They have the brand, the reputation and also the trust that he can deliver the results. And this is for them an advantage. And I think that's also I guess bringing it back to a new company. If people trust you to deliver quality of results that can be with the product capabilities, but also your own journey, I think that can help you sticking out compared if you don't have none of those and just you co-vibecoded something. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, and I I agree completely. And some we can something I can share, like that we've been challenged by is obviously like most companies that starts today work with data in some capacity with companies, most AI companies do that. You know, I feel like companies are becoming more you know, security becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. I feel like GDPR is a bigger and bigger thing as well. So kind of for us, like SOC2 and ISO Is something that you know ha has been coming up from the start. And when you're a startup, you don't have that, right? Because you you know it cost a lot of money and time to kind of kind of do that. But but now we decided like early this year, okay, we need to invest in this. And it's probably, I don't know, it's a lot of money that goes in and time that goes into that. And we're almost complete now. but I think it's that is a an additional thing like that you can do as a startup to kind of build credibility. But it takes a lot of investment. But I I think that's that's something I'm experiencing now is that people want some sort of extra security that you their data will be safe in a way. And if you can give them that, they will be much more likely to kind of go with you rather than a new vibe coded solution. Because they you know data e even if the the vibe coded solution might be potentially better, it doesn't matter if the data is not safe in a way. So I think it's and th and that's the hard part. It it it's always the hard part for us when we have been going up against bigger competitors as well, because all of them are SOC two and ISO certified. So how can we as a small player kind of convince someone to go with us instead? It's very tricky. Haris: Exactly. And especially when working with European companies where the element Adam Holmgren: Exactly. Haris: of security is also very important. Adam Holmgren: German companies especially. Very, very tricky into the security business. Haris: I know, I know, I know. more on the founder journey. Like you are based in Sweden, so a European company. many counterparts in the US are also founding company. Traditionally, usually much easier, but how do you see the topic of starting a company in Europe and Sweden? Do you in terms of support, are things getting easier, etc.? Adam Holmgren: but I think it has. I think over the past few years it has been you know become much easier to start a company. You don't need a lot of capital to start companies these days. I also think we especially in Sweden but other countries here in Europe as well, have a lot of especially now this past year or the year before that we have a lot of great examples of companies starting and you know having you know an insane growth today. We have the Lovables, we have the Ligoras. And I think that has also helped, you know, really the scene, the kind of startup scene grow. Haris: Mm-hmm. Adam Holmgren: so I think it's easier than ever to kind of get started and to get help from people on how to do, and people are very willing to help when when you're kind of an underdog in a way. but I think what we realized early on is that you know I had an audience, it was very European focused, since I'm from here, right? So we realized that we have to break into the US right away because otherwise w we won't stand a chance over time. so all of the ads money I talked about before, like that we started spending in the beginning, that was going purely to US. And kind of we we were leaning on me and my network in Europe. Now it's kind of fifty fifty, but we that I think that made us break into that market a lot. And we're probably fifty fifty in terms of customers from Europe and US today. Which I feel is critical for us to be kind of evenly spread there. Haris: it's always tricky but also extremely relevant entering the use mar US market early on. Of course there are exceptions for different product categories, but usually Adam Holmgren: Yeah, yeah. Haris: most SaaS companies want to do the split. coming slowly towards an end, like W what are your ambitions? Are you trying to become a one-person, a two-person unicorn or Adam Holmgren: It's a good question. I mean, in the beginning we were kind of we're going to be two people, that's going to be it. We we want to have a good have fun while doing it, while still earning a lot of money for us and our families, right? And now it k kind of has graduated a little bit. We still want to be a lean team. I still see us being, you know, probably less than five people, maybe a few more over time than that, but but still trying to be as lean as possible. And then going for that kind of $10 million of ARR company. That's kind of the the first goal that we have. Like if we can get there below five people, I think we're doing something extremely kind of efficient and good. And I honestly, if you have a good enough product and good enough processes, I don't think you need more than five people to get to that. But yeah, so so I guess that's the goal. But I We don't want to become a big ass company that, you know, employs hundreds of employees because yeah, I I just don't think that's the way necessarily you have to start a company these days. I think we would rather have fewer people pay our people much better. and you know, just let people that we work with have it very well and also get them motivated to work hard, of course. because that's you know. That has been the hardest part now when we're recruiting a little bit. How can we find people that are willing to be as invested as we are? which is really tricky, right? And then you have to invest in those people. You have to pay them well. You have to, you know, they have to be motivated to stay with you. but yeah. But sticking as a lean team, getting to ten million dollars VR, and if we do that, I think we have, you know, we have every potential from there. We You know whatever it might be. W will we sell over time? Who knows? Will we decide to be a big company? I I I just want to put us in that position where we have the possibility to decide, I think. Haris: Yeah, it's always a good position to be somewhere where you can decide. Not like the case of Airtable that had to sell at a very big discount and and no Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: that many people benefit from that point. But coming back to this one point about hiring, hiring was always the biggest challenge for every company in the history. And And I guess for now AI native companies it's even a bigger challenge because you wanna have a lean team, as you just mentioned, and then you want to have the people who are equally motivated as you and you're also willing to pay them c like Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Yeah yeah. Haris: have you reflected on some incentives? Like I think that could be also relevant for some of the listeners here. Adam Holmgren: Yeah, I mean the the natural incentive is equity, right? In getting equity in the business. and that that's probably what most people are looking for when they are joining like a small startup. How can I get kind of this long term benefit of being at that company? So I think that's, you know, by far the most powerful ones. But a another thing that we have been thinking about is maybe you know having salaries that are tied to our MRR, right? So when we grow, salaries grow. quite quickly. And because then we can also forecast w what kind of cost we will have over time. But it will also, you know, not hurt us since we know that it is a certain percentage of our MRR. So I think that is how we're trying to kind of give back to the people that we will we will hire. So having, you know, hopefully a pretty fair starting salary, but then having a salary that is very attached to our MRR that's growing month over month. and then also an equity portion to that, of course. but it because I I I really don't want to end up in the kind of commission structure that that I think all of the kind of sales-led companies have been running for years, right? Where you you close this deal and you get a percentage of the deal that you closed and so on. Because I think it motivates you to do that thing, but it doesn't motivate you to help the company in all the ways. That's why I feel like if we can tie it to ARR, to MRR, I think you're more likely to, you know, help the company in improve in a way. Haris: Yeah. To incentivizing the right behavior. I would Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: almost even argue that the revenue share piece is almost becoming more important. With equity, sure, you might even distribute dividends eventually. Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: Because me personally would I have like running an AI native company which is profitable, right? The chances like The outlook exit is of course one option, but why? Right? So it also begs the question, Adam Holmgren: Yeah, exactly. Why? Haris: why why exit? And for an employer it's also then he might also think like that, then like will they even ever exit? Right? And then like I think this motivation of some form of revenue share becomes actually even more attractive. because the more effort you put in, the more benefit you are getting. I think that's Adam Holmgren: Yeah. Haris: also a great motivation. Adam Holmgren: No, I think that's so funny, right? When you think about how many companies actually does exit versus how many does not, like in terms of people are always happy getting equity, right? But most of them, you know, will see zero return on that equity. so it's like it's like it is great if it's you know if it turns out into a great story, but most companies don't turn out into this unicorn story, right? It's very rare. so I agree with you. Haris: Exactly, exactly. For me personally as well. I was always like equity, I was like pff and sometimes in some European regulation country you think one company thing worked in Belgium. I had to pay for the equity some taxes Adam Holmgren: Yes. Haris: before they even were realised so I had to pay my my taxes on nothingness with the potential of at some point being something. Like like hell no. Like Adam Holmgren: Yes. And it's like you you pay something then for a very low low low probability that something will happen in the future. It's like it's not a good deal often. Haris: No, no, no, no. All right. Great. I think this was a great chat, Adam. very Adam Holmgren: Yeah, likewise. Haris: helpful. I think people can get insight out of this. And yeah, I'm curious curious to see when we're gonna hit or you gonna hit the two million era mark and then the ten million. Adam Holmgren: We'll s we'll see if we if we talk in a year's time, either we're dead or we're there. So we'll we'll see Haris: There you go. Only two options. Amazing. Thank you very much. Adam Holmgren: Thank you.