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Better Teams Start With Better Transparency. · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: Welcome to the latest episode of No Point When Necessary.
• 0:03
  Michael: Now I normally get that wrong.
• 0:05
  Michael: That's the first time in about 10 episodes I've got that right.
• 0:07
  Michael: And today we've got Jason.
• 0:09
  Michael: And Jason and I have never spoken before.
• 0:12
  Michael: We've just spent about half an hour shooting the breeze and getting into a few different things.
• 0:16
  Michael: So we're gonna chat through uh it's gonna be a bit of a chat, a bit of a nice, interesting chat, because actually you've got a really interesting history and also um a pretty cool set of clinics.
• 0:25
  Michael: And so I want to just get into how that's all happened and and your story, and then we'll get into some of the things we've just been talking about.
• 0:32
  Michael: So, first of all, welcome Jason.
• 0:34
  Michael: Tell me about yourself.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first, thanks for having me.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Much appreciated.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my name's Jason.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I own a company called uh Body Logics.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: We have four clinics all based in North London.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've been operating since 2009, um, but we kind of really hit the ground running.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: 2019 is where we really started to take off.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the background story is my stepmum actually started the business of a sports massage.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I used to be a teacher.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: I left teaching feeling disgruntled, this like disillusioned with what the system was.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Had a conversation with her saying, I'm thinking of leaving the profession.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I always wanted to be a physio when I was a when I was younger, but I chose the easy option of where I went to university and opted not to do a physio course.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we had a conversation and she said, Listen, I'm thinking of shutting it all down.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to take it on?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, as long as I'm allowed to do it how I want to do it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And she was up, of course.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that was that was it.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: We went from, I don't know, had maybe 30 patients a week, she had roughly, maybe a little bit less.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're doing 1500 appointments a month on average.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's going well.
• 1:37
  Michael: So that's a journey.
• 1:38
  Michael: So let's start off with uh how old were you when you left teaching?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, 34 or so, 33, 42.
• 1:49
  Michael: 42, getting on.
• 1:51
  Michael: Um so between 2009 and 2019, why was 19 the big jump?
• 1:58
  Michael: Why not between that sort of 10-year period before?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um because when when you become a teacher, you're told certain things.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: You're told that we do this for the kids when we're we're here to make a difference and things like that.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're young, you you believe it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're kind of like, yeah, okay, that's what all the seniors are telling me.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: I found that as I went through the system, that those those stories, they're not, they're not true.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's not it's not true.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're not just there for the kids.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're actually there for people to earn money, unfortunately.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: The the teaching system is just like a business.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing that got me was that it was not truthful.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: If they'd told me that from the start, that this is what teaching is about, and as you that at some point it's going to become money oriented and that business aspect, but but you're never you're never told that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it took me a long time to understand that because it was only as I added more responsibility onto my role that I became aware of the way that the system works.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a honesty is such a big thing for me.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: And when I felt that I was being lied to's harsh, but not told the full truth about what my what's expected of me in my role and why I'm having to make the decisions I'm making, it it just didn't sit with me.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that was the point where I was like, I'm I've just I just can't be in this profession.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, it doesn't, it just doesn't sit with me.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't sit with my morals and and the things that matter to me.
• 3:17
  Michael: So do you think do you not think that's the same with physios?
• 3:20
  Michael: You you you come out of uni and you're told that you're all it's all about making a difference to patients' lives, and then your first job, they start banging on about retention.
• 3:30
  Michael: Is it not the same as a big thing?
• 3:31
  Michael: 100%.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's 100% the same.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and a big thing with me within the business is I I openly share everything.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like very few people, and well, listen, some some might, some might not, but I I share our PL accounts with everyone.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Every single member of the team can see it every month when you run it, because I wanted to see the reality of what's happening here and why, why the things we talk about are important from a business sense of things.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: We have to have patient care at the forefront of what we do.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, we still are a business.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I was actually I was actually talking to a member of staff this morning before I before I came onto this call about they're they're starting to now see that actually us saying to a patient that they need to come back for a follow-up and things like that, we're not we're not actually selling anything.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, exactly, we're not selling anything, we're adding value to people's lives.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it there seems to be this weird stigma, just in physiotherapy, about transactional value on things that people need.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I use an example of when I go to Sainsbury's and they charge me two pounds for whatever and they raise the price of£2.20, they don't bat an eye living there, we don't bat an eyelid when we buy it, and food is an essential thing that we need to live with.
• 4:41
  Michael: I I suppose the difference though is that it's healthcare, right?
• 4:44
  Michael: And so on one hand, making money out of people's misery, let's say, is can be a little bit sticky.
• 4:50
  Michael: And then on the other, uh, and I I I don't agree with this by the way, but on the other, it's like, oh, but they they don't have the money or they can get it for free from the NHS, and so you know, we can't charge much more.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where a lot of people kind of them their mindset is definitely, and and I but that I think that that's something which is them things are imposed upon us, them beliefs are imposed by external factors.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: When if you actually break it down and think of, okay, compare us to any other industry in in in the world, we are providing, we're providing the service to the people to help them with whatever their need is.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And let's I'm thinking of a water company.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: I could go to the tap and get free water, or I could go and buy a bottle of Evian, but no one kind of thinks, oh, hang on a minute, they're selling me water.
• 5:35
  Michael: I also think the the premise is bollocks anyway, because I just went to an optometrist and it cost me 300, 400 quid or whatever it was.
• 5:42
  Michael: I paid the money because I wanted to see someone and it was my health.
• 5:45
  Michael: And and actually, I'm way more willing to spend that on my health than I am an extra two quid on some branded butter, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: We we go out from we go out for a meal sometimes, it's£150 or whatever, or you don't bat an eyelid.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, but someone won't spend that on looking after themselves for the long term and think, oh, that's quite expensive, but they're willing to pay for the for the meal.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it just yeah, I'd and I'm I'd I'd love to know where this this premise has come of of where this belief set is.
• 6:12
  Michael: Where does it used to come from?
• 6:13
  Michael: I think it's it's partly because of the vocational aspect of things, right?
• 6:17
  Michael: You're there, you're there to help people, not to make money, right?
• 6:20
  Michael: Because that's where where you originally come from from a physio standpoint.
• 6:23
  Michael: I don't think any of physio is like, oh, I'm gonna become a physio and be a millionaire.
• 6:26
  Michael: They they want to help people, and I think there is a disconnect between helping people and taking money off them, um which I do understand.
• 6:34
  Michael: Um and I think that's where it comes from.
• 6:35
  Michael: But I think far fewer, especially younger clinic owners now, are are sort of feel that way.
• 6:41
  Michael: Now I think it's about well, actually, we need to make money to survive, we need to make money to provide a better service, to provide a better experience, and so on and so forth.
• 6:48
  Michael: Um one thing you mentioned, which I'm really interested in, is because I do it and and I think it's really important, I tell people to do it, which is opening up your data, right?
• 6:57
  Michael: Getting your P showing the team.
• 7:00
  Michael: And there is a real but let's just say this industry is not great at doing that.
• 7:07
  Michael: They really don't like doing it.
• 7:08
  Michael: And I I I think it's brilliant because for one, the team now knows you're not running around and putting a million quid in your bank account, which which helps and it also helps when they're asking for pay rises when they can see that you got two grand in your bank account at the end of the month.
• 7:21
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:22
  Michael: That's really useful.
• 7:23
  Michael: But I think it's there's a wider point to it actually, which is people, and we've noticed this with the barometer or clinic signal, people are really protective of their data.
• 7:32
  Michael: They're like, oh my god, what if someone else knows what what my data says, or you you don't feel that at all.
• 7:38
  Michael: I like how nothing.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I uh because the the the ambitions of what we have as a clinic are are big.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've got I've got goals of where I want to take this clinic to and a clear, clear vision of what it looks like at the end.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I know the only way that I'm gonna be able to do that is through investment.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whether that be through private investment or if or through banks.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in order for me to get the back, preferably I want to go via the banks because it's a it's an easier, it's an easier process than having private investors on board and it's less personal.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: A private investor, if my mum, dad, friends are coming to me and they're investing money, there is this serious added moral pressure.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds terrible, but there's a pressure with the banks, don't get me wrong.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's it's it's it's a there's there's there's a gap between me and the bank.
• 8:24
  Michael: Of course, it's it's no different than borrowing a hundred quid off your mate or a hundred quid off your overdraft, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh exactly.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: That willingness to pay your mate back is completely different to the banks that I can't do this, but I'll pay a bit of extra interest, but we mate are like, no, no, no, I need to give it back to you because this is really meaningful for me.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but in order for me to be able to go to the bank, they are going to want to see that insides of me from not only the last three months of sending my bank statements in, they're going to see that last 10 years.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And all of that stuff is going to have to be on company's house.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's no point in me not sharing it.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: If people want to know it, they can find out.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also, it's really refreshing, I find, to share it with the team for them to understand that they're so, so understanding now of I want to pay rise.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, where?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Where where is it?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and they can see what we're spending the money on.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like I'm just saying, oh, this month we took this and we and we spent this.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: They can see the ins and outs of what has been paid for.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: That wow, didn't realise that marketing costs that much.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, what's that there?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's your utilities.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what you're paying that much per month.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what that's what happens.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and I I and it's and it's helpful then when we're looking for things like cover on days where because when we're shut, we don't we don't bring any revenue in.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So they're all clear of like what we need to be generating each month to be on track for where we're going to.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And what the word and I try and say to him is like, right, if we're shut on this day because everyone wants to take annual leave on that day or whatever, the landlord doesn't come to me and says, Hey Jason, you're shut today.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Don't worry about today.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: We'll knock that off the rent.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't go to the utility company and say, We're shut today, don't worry about paying standard charges today.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: The council, oh, don't worry about business rates today.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so but but they can all see what the costs are because it it's it's so like no one knows.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you're not running the business, no one knows what things cost.
• 10:15
  Michael: Um and do you find do you find you because of that, you just get better buy-in from the team?
• 10:19
  Michael: Um feels like it.
• 10:21
  Michael: No, it feels like it.
• 10:22
  Michael: Or if you're asking about metrics, they know that it's not just about you wrangling every last penny out of a patient.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's yeah, honestly, we we've got we've got bank holiday coming up on the 28th of December, and we the the the cover support that we've got for it is crazy.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like we've we've we've pretty much got a full clinic open for the day because they're all they all understand and aware of it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: It takes time to get to that position, not like you just share it one day and then everyone goes, Oh, I get it.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a constant, constant thing.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: I share the highs with them, but then but I also share the lows, and they can see sometimes we might make a loss because we've invested in this, and they're like, wow, we were busy though.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, I know, but we've just bought on this member of staff here, which is costing us X, and and that's why it's operating here to that, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 11:10
  Michael: Yeah.
• 11:10
  Michael: How do you do it?
• 11:11
  Michael: What's the process?
• 11:12
  Michael: Do you have weekly team meetings or how we have how we have we have weekly team meetings?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the way we've we've got we've got the four clinic sites.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's very difficult to I I try and get around to meet everyone individually.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And when I have my individual meeting, I talk more about how they're performing as a clinician.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And performance for me is not just on what's their retention rate.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's all I'm more interested in what's the feedback we're getting from patients on on how they're performing.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: That for me is the is the ultimate.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and normally if the patient feedback is is is good and strong, the retention stuff takes care of itself, so it comes less of a focus.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, if someone says to me, Do you want retention or do you want feedback?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm out is feedback.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: I actually use an example in my in my interviews.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: We we do these, we have packages of care and stuff where people can commit to a series of treatment with us to help them save us m save their money, helps us as therapists to understand how much time we've got this person to get them better.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: I always use the question interview.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I said, if someone comes to you today, if we have 100 patients come and 100 people at the end of their session all buy a package of care for£1,000, so we get£100,000 in the bank, or they all leave us a five-star review.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Which one is the more important one for us?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they never come and see us again afterwards, which one is of more value?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Loads of them say£100,000, we need the money.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, mate,£100,000 doesn't go that far these days.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: It gets that gets swallowed pretty quickly over a couple of months or so into costs and stuff.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: But then reviews, they're there forever.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: They can't yeah, they could delete them off, of course, but they tend not to.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: But that that then feeds into other people and we become like a real I feel we become a really reputable company in the local areas because of the feedback we get from patients, and that enables us to be sustainable.
• 12:47
  Michael: I did a podcast, this is half a year ago now, with a lady called Heather, and I was asking her about because she she goes and sees a clinic, uh a clinic that we know she's just patient, and I was asking her about how many times she'd been back in 12 months or whatever, and she said, Oh, about 11 times, but that's not where the money is.
• 13:03
  Michael: The money is in the 10 people that I've recommended, and they've had the 10 appointments each, and then the 10 people they've each recommended, right?
• 13:13
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:13
  Michael: I think people forget that, but a really good bit of a really good experience isn't just a five-star review, it's probably three or four extra patients.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely, definitely.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, that was yeah, that that that that is definitely a a big a big focus of ours for sure.
• 13:30
  Michael: So, in terms of getting feedback from patients, other than Google Ads, do you get it in any other way?
• 13:36
  Michael: And maybe through the team, do you do you have any processes in place for getting feedback?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: After after every after every appointment, we have uh one of our staff members is responsible for making sure we get feedback from from the patient.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we call them, we call them directly and ask them how was it happened?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a big thing.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Patient experience is like ultimate for us, and we put so much time, it's a cost, it's a serious cost.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it I don't think many clinics do it, and I understand why they don't, because it it it comes at a cost.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: But this is where the the the short-term thinking of how much money you get versus the longevity of your clinic and the standards and the reputation you have, in the long run, it might pay off.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's important to say that because if your focus is on the money in the short term, okay, you've got that coming in, and you have enough coming in, you could just shut the clinic down and say, I made what I needed, I'm off, onto something else.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, the passion is is I I'm so passionate in my in my personal self and also from my professional self of being the best, whether it be if I do something personally, I want to be the best.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And when I'm professional as well, I want to be the best in that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I want the best clinic, I want the best staff, I want the best culture, I want the best environment, I want all of that thing.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it, yeah, the investment into them things over the long term will hopefully pay off.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: But there's no guarantee.
• 14:54
  Michael: So you make a call.
• 14:56
  Michael: Well, the the interesting thing is that I see that as sales, but then I'm a commercial bastard.
• 15:01
  Michael: But I actually see that call as a sales call in some ways because you're you're improving that experience.
• 15:07
  Michael: Because if I get that call, I I I went to see a consultant not so long ago about something, and see, I'm getting old, falling apart, always always with a consultant.
• 15:14
  Michael: And the next morning I got a WhatsApp saying, Hey, how are you doing, Michael?
• 15:18
  Michael: Just want to check in.
• 15:19
  Michael: If you've got any issues, let me know.
• 15:20
  Michael: Now it was an automated WhatsApp, but I only know that because I you know I do marketing, but it was really nice to get.
• 15:28
  Michael: It was it was genuinely nice to get, and that was a sale because it made me think, well, there's I'm not going anywhere else again.
• 15:36
  Michael: Like, I'm not gonna go and find another fitty, I'm not gonna find I'm gonna go to this person because they care.
• 15:41
  Michael: So actually, what you're doing, whether you want to call it sales or marketing, making that call is sales slash marketing in its own right.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: We have uh we have a thing which I was you meant you mentioned earlier about how do I share this this data.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I I have a week, I do a weekly, I do a weekly Teams call on my own.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm on the Teams call, I record it, uh, and I share my screen and I talk about the data.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not having to present to anyone, but then send it out for them to for them to view.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how I share how we're doing as a clinic.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew the end of the month one was shares, here's the PL, this is where we did well.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then within our weekly meetings that we have as a team, we they they ask questions about why did that cost that?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that was great, etc.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: But uh where was I going with what my with what my point was there?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Ah it was on to your it was on your point about the the phone call of what you you've become a lifelong person for that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I I I drum into the people who work with us, I've got four, four categories of of people, and I call them there's shoppers, patients, supporters, and fans.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you I hope, if you went and asked any member of staff who works with us, they'd be able to reel off what these four things are because it's every week on sense.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: But the shopper is somebody who browses your website and they there's no decision made.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're just they're they're out for a for a for a stroll on the internet, just having having a look around them.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: The patient is the person whoever comes and what everyone visits us first time as a patient, and what our goal is to make sure that they we change them from a patient into a into a fan, and it's it's understanding what the difference is.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: The patient is that that one-time transactional person who comes from a massage as a treat and we might never see him again.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Then we have what I call a supporter.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's thinking about this from a sports team perspective.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have supporters and you have fans.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: So the supporter I say is if you're I always use the example, if you're at a dinner party and you're all sitting down and your mate says, Oh, my shoulder's really hurting, the supporter will go, You need to go and see Jason down at Ollie Logics, it'll get you sorted.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's done my shoulder, etc.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the fan is at the same dinner party, that same person sits there and says, Hey, listen, everyone, you are never gonna believe what's happened to me this week.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen the best physio you have ever met in your life.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: He did this, this, he's got me better.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other person pipes up and goes, actually, yeah, I've got a shoulder.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really gonna see it.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a that's a thing which I'm really trying to make sure that we have of everyone being a fan of us and just shouting from the rooftop.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little bit like what you said with your patient who goes and recommends 10, 15, 20 people to come in and see see us based upon what's happened.
• 18:12
  Michael: Well, it's it's what we were talking before the call.
• 18:14
  Michael: You you mentioned that Veronica, one of our team, would email email you at 10 30 and respond to you at 10 30.
• 18:20
  Michael: Yeah.
• 18:21
  Michael: And you know, it's the first thing you think of.
• 18:24
  Michael: Like because we were talking about, you know, what you think about us as a company, all that sort of stuff.
• 18:27
  Michael: And your first thing was, oh, well, it's just amazing because you know, I email and I get a response at 10 30.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and that that do you know what?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's the classic example of of me being a fan because my partner, Gemma, who I was speaking to, she didn't ask me, How's your day been?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Have you had any communications today?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: What did the website team say to you?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: I went to her and I said, Yeah, listen, this this is impressive.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they they're doing this.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was it.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've started the conversation about what it is that the of the experience that I've had.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I want people to feel that way about what we do as a company and sit down with their partner and go, If all they even are, how's your day?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh wow, I've had the best experience ever.
• 19:03
  Michael: So it's a big thing.
• 19:04
  Michael: It's it it it it really is.
• 19:06
  Michael: Uh and just moving on then to culture, because I I think that's really interesting, because we're talking about uh most of your people are or majority are contractors, right?
• 19:16
  Michael: It's self-employed.
• 19:17
  Michael: And one of the issues that you often find is that you tend to build a better culture with PAYE, but you found sort of the opposite, and you've actually got a ton of very hungry people.
• 19:29
  Michael: So talk me through that because it's unusual.
• 19:32
  Michael: You mentioned if you need cover, they're they're ready to jump, but you've built this culture of Glengarry Glenn Ross type brass balls, let's get out there, let's make money, and so on.
• 19:42
  Michael: How have you managed to do that?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not sure.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think it came about from trial and error, maybe.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't I I couldn't tell you exactly how we've managed to create that that scenario.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: It just seems to work.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: We get we I I'm really up front with people when I do when I do interviews with people and say, look, this is how we pay people.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's almost letting the market decide how much they should be paid.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: We we have we've got like a really clear paid progression thing within the clinic based upon performance.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and performance is based firstly on the values that you hold.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: So demonstrate all the core values that I want to see as as owner.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And and the values are they're so they're so straightforward, it's applicable to any industry.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do you care about what you do?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Do you are you a good human?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Do you show respect?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Where respect, all of them things are are ultimately the first thing that I that I look at.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then after that, we look up, okay, how how are patients perceiving you?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do they do they want to come and see you?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Are you are you treating them in in the best way possible that they're going to tell everyone you've got to see this person?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: We've got reviews dropping in.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we show like a real clear progression.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that then makes people within the business say, okay, so if I see more people, I have more of an opportunity to grow my profile.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: I get more of an opportunity to people feedback on me.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: I can then be paid more money based upon people want to see me.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I like to think that we pay, we pay decent.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: But there's there's the incentive there for them to know, and it's really clear.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a thing where they have to come and sit down to me saying, right, it's been three months.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Can I be paid more?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's it's paid decent, but based on something, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, completely.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Completely.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: But it's based upon the market.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: The market are determining what they should be paid.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And as I say, I'm I'm I'm I'm sorry, look, define what you mean by the market.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: The market is the is is the people out there.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, if you go on our website in the moment, um, we've got a particular therapist uh called Rui, and he is getting review after review after review.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And because he's speaking with his patient saying, Listen, uh I'm I'm trying to build my profile.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Would you if you're happy with what you've done, can you leave?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: We don't give him anything for it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: The the therapist the the the patient doesn't get anything for doing it.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: There it's it's for their choice if they do it.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the hope is that they're so impressed with what he's done that they're like.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course I will, because you've been amazing.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: But that that then leads to people calling up and saying, I didn't want to see him.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: He's the person I'm coming to see.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that then enables me to say, Wow, listen, you're doing really well.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: These are the tar we have clear metrics.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You need to achieve this, this, and this for you to then move up a pay scale.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same, it comes from teaching.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Teaching is very, very clear cut with if you have a class and there's 26 kids in there, you need to get 50% of them A star to C.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do, you'll move up a pay scale.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I just I just deployed that into what we do.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's obviously there's there's a nuances to relate it to physio with it, but but it's open, it's it's an open document for them to constantly look at so they have full clarity in their head of what they need to do.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's never, they're never coming to me with I I use this in my meetings.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm giving you all the power to bring the conversation to me.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I have a responsibility to obviously bring the conversation to them as well and say, listen, have you not looked at the pavement?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're doing amazing.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Keep going.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I try and use that within my meetings to motivate and encourage them.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Never, I'm never hiding things from them thinking, if they do really, if they get another four reviews, geez, I'm gonna have to pay them more.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, no, no.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going in there saying, get four more reviews, you jump onto this right here.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: So they're like, wow, you're proper looking after me here.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I want you to, I want you to be with us forever.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Not not us be a stepping stone between here and the next company that you go to.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's it's really, really important to me because I know the success of this business is it's only based on the staff we have.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: We can have the cleanest facilities, the nicest marketing, the biggest, the biggest centre.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: If our staff aren't aren't any good and they don't care, it's what's happening.
• 23:36
  Michael: And hungry as well.
• 23:38
  Michael: And the hungry, I think.
• 23:39
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:40
  Michael: Um because I you I I think there are very few clinic owners that would describe their staff as hungry.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do I would I I don't know if that would be the first word of cut they they they care.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: They care and they want to do well and they want to be rewarded for doing well.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe that is what hungry is, I guess.
• 23:59
  Michael: Yeah.
• 23:59
  Michael: Um are you able to share, or do you are you willing to share your pay progression, or just give me some examples?
• 24:04
  Michael: Of course, man.
• 24:06
  Michael: So what what what data what data would you like to So just give me some examples of things they have to do for different levels and and and how that looks.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: So we we have we have a pro probationary period where people start off with us and they they come in, and the main reason it's a probation period is because we know, we know how busy we are as a clinic.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's important to me that we get the right people coming in to us who care about what we're of where we're going on our journey.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not coming in because they're like, hey, you pay decent, I'll have some of that.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: That you're not the person for me.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not interested in that, in that mindset.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm happy for you to be rewarded and rewarded well, but not just solely for for your benefit.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: That has to benefit you as much as it benefits us as a company.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um so so some of the metrics they have, we look at kind of what their their cancellation rate is.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if we're if following people up, when people are cancelling, if we get a higher cancellation rate, there's always a question of like, hmm, why are patients cancelling?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: What's the reasoning here for it?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it is that because the service we're providing isn't isn't good?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is it because the service is unbelievable that they don't need any follow-ups because they fixed them after this one session or whatever?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: But then that's then reflected within the reviews and the feedback we get.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So this is why we call the patient up afterwards.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: So if we had, for example, someone coming in, initial appointment, we've rebooked them in, and then they've cancelled that one, but we've done our phone call to the patient and the patient's gone, oh my God, whoever that was, unbelievable, best I've ever seen, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we're getting someone, therapists is having 10 initials, 10 cancellations, but 10 pieces of feedback where the patient's like, honestly, different level.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going into that therapist going, blah, blah, blah, what you're doing.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going in going, wow, that's incredible.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because the feedback is the thing that matters to us as a business.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because them 10 people, they're going to tell 10 others.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's 100 people we've got now, all calling up.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where the probation period starts.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: We have like easy metrics to me.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Then they go into what we call starter, like you starter salary, which is based upon, so they get a fee for their initial appointments and they get fees for their follow-up appointments because the cost is in the marketing of the initial.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then once they're a follow-up, they're that therapist retaining them.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: So they're almost becoming their patient.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and as that progresses, I still have patients that I don't do too much clinic work, but I still have patients contacting me who I haven't seen for three years, who want to only see me.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm having to have a conversation like I see here because they're my patient, and they all have the same thing.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the so, yeah, so we try we try and reward it that way so they can see that they're getting rewarded for their impact.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Us as a business are covering ourselves from our impact, from the marketing side of things, the the website, the promotion, etc.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: But then as they as that builds out, they're then going to on a we call an intermediate pay, which is a which is a step up where they're starting to get embedded into the business, and patients are now calling.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: I only want to see that person, so their retention rate is growing, so they're getting rewarded more and more.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally we go to the there's the advanced therapist rate.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that that comes with a higher pay point for the patient, and then there's a higher pay rate for the for the therapist as well.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: But my thinking always is, is any of these members of staff could, if they wanted to, at any point, leave and go and set up literally next door, literally next door to them.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you you asked earlier about why do I share my my PL and stuff.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I want them to, it's if listen, we've had therapies who've worked for us and they have gone and started their own thing.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, go for it.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Best of luck to you.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's no there's no hard feelings.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still in contact with one at the moment, what's Central London.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm asked, like, how's he getting on?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm interested in how he's doing.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's of no, he's no competition to us.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: No one's going into Central London to see him, and no one's coming out of Central London to see us.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: So none of this competition stuff.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I always kind of look back at that thing and I think, because at that point when he left, I wasn't sharing what I share.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if I'd done that, would he have been so keen to leave?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, yeah, so he made me think, geez, this is hard doing our business stuff.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I want people to see that actually you can get paid with us just as well as if you had your own clinic.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: You you shared in that in the barometer thing about what an average, average clinic owner gets of 50k.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell you right now, there's staff in our business right now who are earning more than 50k for the way they're doing.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: So in my head, I'm like, you'd be mad to leave this.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: People then say to me, why the hell are you doing it?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm up.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: So good question.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm I'm at a stage where we've got four clinics, I've got four leases, which are all personally guaranteed.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm in a I'm at a different level at the moment of it's not so easy just to step back and say, you know what, I don't fancy this.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: But then equally, I'm I'm I'm my ambition is on reputation and what we provide, let less so what the money side of it is.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Listen, money, money matters.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: We we we can't live our life without money, and I wish we could, but it so there has to be an element of money in it, and it has to be covered from a from a lifestyle perspective.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: But the the goal is to have like a monster, a monster.
• 29:16
  Michael: I I always say the people who want to make money and design a business around that, they can be very successful, but only in the short term.
• 29:26
  Michael: Of course.
• 29:27
  Michael: My view is build a great product, don't worry about the money, because the money will come.
• 29:31
  Michael: And I think that is always true.
• 29:32
  Michael: And it is sustainable money, it is money that you enjoy earning and you're not ripping people off, and and so on and so forth.
• 29:39
  Michael: This is one of my issues actually with packages.
• 29:41
  Michael: We won't get into packages today if we don't have long enough.
• 29:43
  Michael: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:44
  Michael: But packages are often used in the wrong way, they are often used to make money rather than providing a great service.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's funny you say that because I actually I open again openly saying in in our talks, I'm like, listen, everyone, packages are actually bad for business.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: We we discount them.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, packages are terrible for us, but they benefit the patient, they benefit the staff member, and they benefit our reputation.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: So from if we look to just from a monetary perspective, I actually say to people, if you choose not to do them, I'm not too fussed because we we're we're better off as from a business perspective, but I want them to do it because I know that it gets we we build the trust of the patient, we get the outcome that we're seeking, and that patient leaves thinking, wow, I've been seriously looked after here.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Michael: So that's and actually that's a good way of looking at packages as well.
• 30:31
  Michael: Um quick question, who does the actual feedback collecting for patients?
• 30:36
  Michael: Admin, admin team.
• 30:38
  Michael: You've got an admin team that does that, okay.
• 30:39
  Michael: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:40
  Michael: We don't have long left.
• 30:42
  Michael: I just want to, given that we're we're releasing clinic signal at the moment and you're a user, I just want to and you love data.
• 30:48
  Michael: I just want to touch on data and as a business owner, because again, I think a lot of clinic owners think that they use data, but they don't really, or they just struggle getting that data.
• 30:58
  Michael: What do you do with what sort of data do you look at on a daily basis?
• 31:02
  Michael: What's Clinic Signal?
• 31:03
  Michael: I don't want this to be a sales pitch for Clinic Signal, but what's Clinic Signal done for you as well?
• 31:06
  Michael: What sort of data are you using there to really help you run the business?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we it it helps us look at our rebooking rate, our capacity rate, and and the general basic things.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I I I look a lot at what our what's our retention number, what our new patient acquisition is, what our it's it's cut patient value is is something which you have to track.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Whether we want to hear it or not, it it is a thing.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and one of the things that we're that we're really trying to do as a business, um, which which I said to you before we started, is growing out what that a multidisciplinary clinic looks like and not being, we've been so physiofocused for so long, and I I feel we've done a really good job of it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to lose that focus.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: I still want that to be uh a thing that we push and and excel in.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: But we we've got the team in place and the processes in place now to actually bring in other services which would exceed and meet and exceed hopefully what the physiotherapy stuff does.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, that that that's a big thing for me.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and so that that average patient value is is gonna then start feeding that more often because someone might see us for a course of physiotherapy, and then we say, for example, we're we're we we're currently going through CQC registration with the hope that once we get gained approval, yeah, mate, that's this damn back to business.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: I if honestly, mate, if I knew what I know now about how hard this was going to be, I'm not sure I would have done it.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: But when we when we went through it, we're like, yeah, great idea.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Let's bring up private GPs, it'll be a great thing.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: We've got these, we've got free GPs who want to come work with us.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, what a great idea.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's build this into what we're doing.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: My God, the the volume of work and the depth that they want us to go to.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good for us from a business because it's professionalizing us.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it also makes me think, I'll tell you what, there ain't many clinics around here who are going to put themselves forwards for it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not even the putting it together.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's hard.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: We're now actually looking at wow, when we get this approval, every week we have to do this, and every month that we need to do that, and every year we need to pay that for this service, that service, this testing.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, this GP thing better go well because it's yeah, we've got some serious investment going on.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: But the the again, it's sometimes naivety in business is is a good thing, mate, because it holds you back sometimes.
• 33:24
  Michael: I'd say it's a little bit like kids.
• 33:26
  Michael: If you knew back then what you know now.
• 33:28
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:30
  Michael: Yeah.
• 33:30
  Michael: Um so going back to the data, what sort of data do you look at that you don't think others do?
• 33:35
  Michael: Is there anything that you look at and you go, that's interesting?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: I would, I would, I would quite ask, I'd love to know how many people know what their staff to turnover ratio is.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: That would be interesting if they were.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I look at things from the finance side of it a lot because it matters when the when the landlord's coming in wanting their rent.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: From if I think about specifically of a clinic, there's we we we we track the split of what's our what's our patient base for insurance versus self-funded.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because what you can get, you can get under a false impression sometimes that your retention is really high if you just look at it as a collective and you then run the risk of thinking, actually, we're doing great.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: But then when you look at what the insurance fees pay, you're you're thinking you've got a busy diary, but wait a minute, if you're then because we have management accounts done every month, and I I wonder again if people do that that often.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: But then you actually start because people look at cash in the bank and they think, right, that's good.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: We got we got cash, so we're we're we're we're we're running well.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that if if if people actually looked into it in more depth, I think they'd have some eye-openers about how good, how strong their business is, and so that that split definitely of your self-funded versus insurance and how it impacts your self-funded thing, or sorry, your retention number, I think is key.
• 34:55
  Michael: I I think another one is your new versus returning.
• 34:58
  Michael: Um very few people actually look at that, and I think that's actually a really important number.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely, definitely.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: We we we and it's actually a lesson I've learned in my years of doing it, but there was such a big focus at one point on new patient in, new patient in, new patient in.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: We we shifted that massively now to what's our retention like we're we're we bought this GP service here, and it links into what you're saying with the data here is of because the GPs were saying about the NHS.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: The NHS is broken because we always see people at point of sickness and never at point of health.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we had a really interesting uh personal example this with one of the girls who works with us.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Her mum died of lung cancer, her sister's got stage four lung cancer, she's an ex-smoker, uh, but but fit and well.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: She went up to the hospital and said, Listen, this is my situation.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can you do an x-ray on my lungs?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm I'm I'm getting all this anxiety about it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Their first thing was, You got any symptoms?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, No, we don't do that then.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And they were, she was like, I'm asking this for you because of the history.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually they backed into they backed down to do it.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: But imagine you could see everyone at point of health to test them, see how they are, and well, uh yeah, it's the same with mammograms, right?
• 36:04
  Michael: So um Hannah's mother died at a very young age from breast cancer, and you know, at the age of 30, 35.
• 36:12
  Michael: Good luck trying to get one, yeah.
• 36:15
  Michael: And and you're right on that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we we really want to change our model to be yes, we're gonna do all the acute stuff, but we really want to start focusing on the on the prevention side of it, and we feel that we can do that with within physio, within GP, within all of them.
• 36:28
  Michael: So another another one on data, actually, talking about being multidisciplinary, is looking at the service fix and looking at revenue per service, we do have to service, retention per service, all of those sorts of numbers as well.
• 36:42
  Michael: Because I think a lot of you know what what's your revenue for new patients versus existing patients is one thing, but what about per discipline?
• 36:49
  Michael: I think that's super important as well.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we're and at the moment we're we're heavily, we're too heavily physio-oriented.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's through design though, um, which which which came from me when we was growing it out.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, now our shift is working more on how do we spread that, spread the risk almost.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but then but it comes with another risk of you need staff to be able to provide these services, so you bring on you bring on a different element of risk as somewhere else.
• 37:15
  Michael: It's a what about um and the last question because I know you have to go.
• 37:18
  Michael: Something I noticed, I I wanted to put time between uh visits as a metric in clinic signal.
• 37:24
  Michael: And when we first released it, very few people looked at it, and I've started going on and on and on about it and how important it is, and now everyone uses it.
• 37:32
  Michael: Is that something you track?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not what I track, no, and partly partly because every case is obviously individual.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things we do talk about really openly in in clinic, and I I do it within lots of lots of the CBDs, in a professional sports team, if your player comes in on Monday with their knee hurting, whatever, when are you next seeing them?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: What the what's what's the answer they all give always?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask you that.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: What's what answer do they give?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: If they're seeing, if they if their knee hurts on Monday in a professional team, when's the physio next seeing them?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Monday evening or Tuesday morning.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, mate.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I then ask people, why are we booking this person in 10 days, 10 days later, where in a pro team, you would be willing to see them on Tuesday, and what's your reason?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to check in on well, so why why are we leaving it 10 days for us to check?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that what good care looks like?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Then we go down the talk of the money situation, what we said at the start and track transactional stuff.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: But we try to do that.
• 38:30
  Michael: But that's exactly that's exactly what I meant by time between visits, because there's there's a lot of clinics that are at 20 days after they first see a new cation, which is kind of crazy.
• 38:39
  Michael: And uh but lots of people never measure that or never think about that.
• 38:43
  Michael: They just they see the retention number, not the concentration of that retention, if you like.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well the way the the thing that I find really useful from uh from the clinic signal is is some of the data that you share, and and it links into the barometer side of it with people who are who are booked in uh I think it's 17 days after their first appointment, have got like a I don't know, three or four times chance of more chance of cancelling.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that that but they I I we one of the difficulties we sometimes have is actually the availability of our clinicians where we're so busy, so we're constantly recruiting, constantly getting it.
• 39:19
  Michael: So that's another reason, actually, with where why you look at that, because your time between business can be 15 days or 20 days, not because of the clinician, just because you're so busy, and then that tells you what your utilise or that you need to be looking at your utilization as well.
• 39:33
  Michael: Yeah, so we kind of match and marry the time between visits with the utilization because if your utilisation is at 85% and time between businesses is 20 days, that's fine.
• 39:43
  Michael: If it's 60% in 20 days, you've got a problem.
• 39:46
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we're we're we're we're forever recruiting because we have such high demand for for for patients, and as I say, we don't we then get these bottlenecks of well, we can't fit them in with the existing clinician, and therefore we end up providing poor care, and it's not what we want to be about because the patients are disgruntled sometimes that oh, I can't be seen for I want to be seen in two days' time.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we wish we could, and so but we want to make sure that that never occurs, so that's why we have this, it's just constant.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: I must honestly, I must do screening calls, minimum six six a week, minimum of of potential physios who are applying to us, and yeah, we've got we've got two really good ones coming on.
• 40:26
  Michael: But it's good to create a network as well.
• 40:28
  Michael: You if you're always recruiting, if you're always looking, then you know I think that's really really important because then it's much easier to get someone when you do actually need.
• 40:36
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:37
  Michael: Well, listen, I only have to go.
• 40:39
  Michael: Thank you so much.
• 40:40
  Michael: That was honestly a podcast.
• 40:42
  Michael: That was really, really good.
• 40:43
  Michael: I think uh you covered a lot of things that are very different to what many others have.
• 40:47
  Michael: So thank you again.
• 40:48
  Michael: That was that was brilliant.
• 40:49
  Michael: You're welcome.
• 40:49
  Michael: You're welcome.
• 40:50
  Michael: I enjoyed it.
• 40:51
  Michael: Cheers.
• 40:51
  Michael: Thanks, Jason.
• 40:52
  Michael: Thanks, mate.