Latest / Marketing Shed / The Hidden Cost of Fake Discounts and Auto-Renewal Tricks
Transcript
- Warren Fiveash: Hi Paul. How you doing? How's things going? You enjoying this sunny weather? Paul Duxbury: I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Morning, Warren. Yeah, I'm loving it. That the the lawn looks a bit I say lawn, I mean th the the the the limited amount of grass I've got looks a bit sorry, but I was thinking it will it will bounce back. So yeah, I'm loving it. I was sat out yesterday evening in the outside and it's just beautiful. Yeah, so I'm loving it. How about you? Warren Fiveash: Yeah, yeah, very much enjoying it. It makes the summer holidays a lot easier for kids, I'm not gonna lie. You know, and the the weather's good, you can you can always go out. You haven't got a pick of these rainy day activities, so can't complain. Can't complain too much. A little bit of water wouldn't go amiss with it, but Paul Duxbury: Well, th there's a lot it's quite quite inefficient using a watering can, but but it is better for for the environment, I guess. So I'm prepared to to tolerate that. Warren Fiveash: Yeah. And what have you been up to this week? What have you what have you been out and about doing, Paul? Paul Duxbury: Warren. I tell you what, well, two things I want to mention from from the past well, the past couple of weeks, but the past week, I was lucky enough that I was on proper holiday. So I took a week off, no laptop. I went with a bunch of friends cycling in France. And we went just across the Channel. We went to Dieppe and we cycled from Dieppe towards Paris, then back along the Seine and up the the Normandy coast. And it was just fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. The weather was amazing. It was pretty hot in in places, but amazing. The company was brilliant, you know, really good mates. They had a good laugh. and I I disgracefully I'd forgotten the importance of just taking a week off and and just just doing nothing work related, more or less. And so I feel quite energized and recharged by by that experience, which was great. It was great. Yeah, Warren Fiveash: Last. Love that. Paul Duxbury: thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I I know you're quite well, I think you're best than me at doing that sort of thing, but but I I really appreciated it. Warren Fiveash: Well, I think I think you I'm glad you didn't take your laptop with you. I think you needed a holiday without your laptop. 'Cause you've always got your laptop with you, I think, haven't you, when you go on these trips. You're glad to do that. Got a reason Paul Duxbury: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Warren Fiveash: 'cause it is so easy just to flip up the laptop. Paul Duxbury: Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. So that was one thing. And then the other thing, just just going back two weeks, was I I compete I competed in the Surrey Masters Athletics, which is great fun. I mean, you know, Warren Fiveash: It is. Paul Duxbury: a bunch of older people on an athletics track. and and incidentally I did the hundred meters for the first time. and Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: And I was watching Amy Hunt this morning when because she got her European gold last night in Birmingham. Warren Fiveash: Yes, I Paul Duxbury: so she ran a hundred meters in it in eleven seconds, I did it in fifteen, which I think's not far away. You know, I could bridge that gap. I think I could I could bridge yeah, it's only four seconds. It's not a lot. so I'm hoping I'm hoping I'll bridge that. But I what what I noticed was in the middle of Wimbledon Park Athletics Club, in the middle of the track, they had five paddle courts. So so the plot is thickening on our paddle versus tennis conversation. Warren Fiveash: Yes. Yeah. Paul Duxbury: and I just wonder, you know, demand demand appears to be insatiable at present for paddle courts. but I wonder at what point will supply catch up with or even overtake demand. So so that's just one to watch. There's clearly an explosion taking place in terms of sport course. Yeah. Yeah. Warren Fiveash: That's when the price starts going up. Yeah. Paul Duxbury: Absolutely. So anyway, so that that's that's my last couple of weeks. doing nothing or well, n nothing work wise and noticing what's been going on in the world of athletics and paddle. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? How about you? Has it been equally relaxing and refreshing? Warren Fiveash: Well, I come back from a holiday two weeks ago, didn't I? So it's not Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Warren Fiveash: been as that, but still still good. You know, actually we went to went to London with the kids this week. And you know, you go to London a lot for work, obviously. Go go most weeks. And usually it's a train trip and then you go straight to the office and you kinda take for granted, don't you, you're in this kind of amazing city actually taking the kids was a way of almost reconnecting with our great city. So we we've taken Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Warren Fiveash: them to London before, but usually it's like to a museum and you're going direct there. And there's so much to see in London, isn't it? It's th it's hard to know where to start with kids. But we thought we'd just do the do a few of the the hot spots. So we went, you know, past Bakenham Palace, went past Westminster, you know, Big Ben and then went to the very touristy obviously, but went to the Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Warren Fiveash: Millennium the London Eye. London Eye. Paul Duxbury: great. Warren Fiveash: And then and then up to Blackfriars. So we did a bit of that tour, but it just it's really interesting just going round and you suddenly realise how grand and amazing the city is really. When you see it through Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Warren Fiveash: the eyes of the kids and these amazing things that they're looking at. so yeah, it was nice to to to do that again. It's just to look through kind of the eyes that maybe I looked through them when I was seven or eight years old when I first went to London, which was great. But I have to say, I have never been to any of those landmarks and seen it so busy. As busy as it Paul Duxbury: really? Interesting. Warren Fiveash: was on a Monday. It was just pff I mean, they must be it makes you realise how much tourism j London generates when you see it on a Monday. Paul Duxbury: Mm. Yeah. And and what could you tell what nationalities were were present or or predominant? Warren Fiveash: It was thing. There's a lot of Americans actually. I'd have to Paul Duxbury: really? Yeah. Warren Fiveash: A lot of Americans and well, a lot of American accents. And there are there are quite a few lots of people from Japan and places like that. So yeah, bit of a mix so I think every it must be the day or the week when everyone jets into London to do the tourism thing because you could hardly get you couldn't get close to Buckingham Palace. And you couldn't and it was you were literally Yeah, it's blocked in when you're walking down sort of the Waterlee Way. So it was it was very busy, which was hard with a four and a six year old, but they loved it. So yeah, good. Paul Duxbury: Right. Great. Good parenting. Well done. Warren Fiveash: I'll tell you what that's expensive even when you're not doing something like just for the train fee, you realize how much money it costs. But that's another matter. And what have you s what have you been seeing this week, Paul, in the marketing sphere? Paul Duxbury: Well, you might think not so much because I I've been on holiday. but I noticed a couple of things which really intrigued me. just through conversations with friends. I was chatting to a couple of basically the friends who are small business owners. not not tiny, but but smallish. one is a a sole practitioner, she's an architect. and She said to me, yeah, you know, I I'd I'd be a good good project for you because I don't do any marketing. And so I started asking her questions about her business. And I asked things like, do you have enough work? Yes. do you have the right kind of work in terms of the the nature of the work, the value of the work? Yes. and how do you get your work through through recommendation? and and her website is, I think, not been really changed substantially since it was built ten years ago. But through conversation, it became pretty clear that that she does do marketing. she she offers a a service that people value, they like they like the product. she works in a clearly defined local market, so her her skills apply are relevant to the people in that area. Her pricing clearly is working because she's she's winning business and and and getting paid for it. And her reputation is generating new leads. so I Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: think beneath the surface the four P's of marketing are are doing their job quietly but almost without without her appreciating it. Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: And then I was chatting to another friend who was a partner in An independent veterinary practice. And he was talking about the offer they have, how they seek to compete with the bigger multiple chain practices, and how they focus not just on treatment, but also on pet wellness and how you do preventative work, offering nutrition advice and even guidance for owners before they buy a pet as to what pet might. might work best for them. And I thought that's fascinating because that's really useful marketing based around a deep understanding of of their consumers and their customers. So that got me thinking, you know, there's two there's two people I'm chatting to, both of whom sort of kind of said we don't do marketing, but on closer inspection, I think they really Warren Fiveash: Do it. Paul Duxbury: do do marketing. And I thought as professional marketers, our role Isn't always, and perhaps you could argue is rarely to deliver a a a dazzling, amazing new idea that that completely changes the paradigm. I think Warren Fiveash: Mm. Paul Duxbury: it's more about taking existing thinking and making it more deliberate and perhaps improving the quality of the choices that are made about where to allocate resources, where to focus, Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: thereby increasing the likelihood of success. Warren Fiveash: Mm. Paul Duxbury: And it made me think that marketing is less about making businesses do marketing, because businesses almost by definition are doing marketing, but more about helping businesses what they do already in a more knowing way, Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: a more consistent way. So that was my that was my take out from those conversations over the last couple of weeks. Warren Fiveash: No, I really like I really like that. because I've been talking to people about similar things actually. Actually the value of marketing beyond what people think it is. So a lot of people think marketing is advertising or campaigns, right? Essentially. That's kind of the go to of what people would think, I think, a lot of the time. If you're not kind of familiar or or have, you know, trained up in it. Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Warren Fiveash: but actually the value of like you said, the four Ps and the process you follow in a lot of marketing. Some of it is very instinctive to a lot of people and they don't realise they're doing it, like you say already, and businesses do intrinsically do it. The thing is the value of having trained marketers to add even more value in regards to like the running of the business and how you can do things even better and efficiently is is maybe missed a lot a lot actually. So I I totally agree with your point there around the yeah, the the way that marketing can potentially do more to help businesses do things even better. Paul Duxbury: Yeah, yeah. And as I say, I think Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: it's about taking something people do intuitively, putting some structure around it so that Warren Fiveash: Mm. Paul Duxbury: the people who are doing that marketing can be more intentional about the choices they're making where to allocate their their investment. Warren Fiveash: Giving people the tools, essentially, to do that, yeah. Yeah, I love that. I wonder Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Warren Fiveash: if there's something that well. Is there a no training something we something could be offered to people to help them understand the kind of essentials of marketing? Yeah. Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Yeah, why not? Why not? So that was me. Tell me about you, Warren, 'cause 'cause you've not been in the holiday bubble. What what have you seen that's been interesting over the last week? Warren Fiveash: No, well this is a re it's very recent one actually. So it's a government there. I'm gonna get political, but it's I'm gonna spin it on what Paul Duxbury: hang on, hang on. Warren Fiveash: I'm not the rest of politics, not yet. but you would have seen D. Burnham and the government have introduced well they've brought forward something that Sakir Starmer introduced a few months back, which was around trying to stop companies introducing these bad discounts. discounts and also Paul Duxbury: Mm. Warren Fiveash: preventing companies from what's the word you could use not tricking but yeah getting people on these long term subscriptions. So you offer a free month to subscribe to X product and then y you end up on a like a a twelve month contract essentially. It also renews and you end up on a twelve month contract and that is deemed to be a bit misleading by some of these companies and actually the government is introducing something to try and stop that. With bad discounts, it's slightly different in that you will see a lot a lot of brands will will have, you know, you can do a sale for example of like a jacket, let's say, and you can buy the jacket, discount 50% off. It was £100, you can get it for £50 quid. But actually what the Paul Duxbury: Mm. Warren Fiveash: what the businesses Is that the bit their jacket's always been fifty quid but they've raised that they've raised the price to a hundred quid just before they then do the discounts and people think they're getting fifty percent discount. So my question is though, is is that a failure of marketing that the that these measures are having to be introduced? Because marketing tactics like that really you shouldn't have to you shouldn't have to introduce those if you're doing your marketing well and you're pricing things correctly, essentially. And actually I would argue that those discounts and the way they're done and the subscriptions in particular actually reduced are reducing trust. and a feeling that companies or corporates are trying to rip rip you off or trying to take advantage of you, right? Which there is a lot of sentiment like that, I think, out there at the moment. And so I wonder actually that these tactics are actually a big failure of marketing. And actually the fact that government are intro introduced that to whether you agree with it or not, is actually a a a bit of a a bad indictment on how marketing a marketers All businesses, it might not be the marketing, they might be being overridden, are approaching pricing and the way they price their products. There's a there's a strong argument that discounts anyway are a great way of providing value in your product anyway, and actually getting your pricing right, first of all, is actually the key is actually the key to marketing. You mentioned it first just a few minutes ago, Paul, before Ps and price are essential and so actually by discounting you can be devaluing your products. If you look at a lot of these big brands like you know the Chanels of the world, the high value brands, they you will they'll have specific strategies where they won't want to undermine the value of that brand. And that will include discounting and and things like that. So they they adopt that they're obviously premium but you could make an argument that the you you you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that anyway. So so my thought is actually mark marketing needs to shape up in this area. I'll give you an example of something that happened recently to someone I know where they signed up for they get food delivery every month, every week to their house, so from a a big supermarket chain and they paid for the monthly subscription fee to pay for that food delivery. I think it was a a rolling contract for a couple of months at a certain price. seven pounds or something, I think, which actually is quite good value when you think it's two or three pounds usually to get it individually for the delivery. and then they found out that they had been also renewed onto a six month contract to pay that seven pounds a month for the next six months after their first initial two, three months I think, which they weren't aware of because an email had gone into their junk mail, essentially. Which wasn't notifying them from the auto renewal, but I think it was an initial email. and then they ended up and had to get out of it. And actually they did get out of it, but the the whole process has actually meant that they're not gonna shop with that with that supermarket anymore because they feel like they've been kind of taken advantage of. So I just think actually it it it shouldn't need a government to come in and kind of put these measures in, actually. It's actually I would argue that there's a detrimental effect in in general in regards to trust, authenticity of what you're trying to sell. Paul Duxbury: Yes, I I think you make a very good point. And I was thinking about this quite carefully as you were talking. And I recognize the the the the problem you describe. I was thinking a bit about the cancellation issue. so we've all been through that loop when you want to cancel a service and it's a job to find the cancellation button. When you do find the cancellation button, it's are you really sure is Another offer to persuade you not to cancel, or do you want to suspend? And then if you're really, really sure, and and it can get very convoluted, and you have to email somebody, and it can be very, very difficult to just do a simple cancellation. And I agree with you. I think I think there is a short-term versus long-term view here. And I imagine that in the short term, whether that be a year, two years. Taking this approach of making it difficult to cancel or rolling over subscriptions or auto enrolling people after a trial period. I I imagine that does bear fruit in the short term. But then I think you're right, in the longer term, it destroys trust and that destroys brand value and and leads to exactly what you described people choosing to take their business ultimately elsewhere. and I think it is an issue of trust. And I think as marketers, there's a necessity for us to stand up for the consumer and and 'cause at the end of the day, we're all we're doing is seeking to meet their needs as best as we possibly can. And that includes making sure they've got the right service and not just locked into something they don't actually want. Warren Fiveash: This is something maybe we'll do a separate one on, but I I wonder about the ethical kind of approaches of a marketing and the whole issue of honesty with like you said, your consumer. And like you said, it's the point of marketing is to provide customers with what they need and actually there is something around being authentic and transparent with consumers about about that process, right? And I think I think you're right, Paul. think I think there's a job there for marketers. I suppose what I would say is maybe it's maybe it's up to someone being brave and bold, new entrants into the market to to to approach that whole issue differently, subscription, so that actually it get then gets the big players to start thinking about how they're approaching it. So you need someone with a long term view that comes in and then changes things. And that's obviously how the market works, isn't it? When you you know in with these things. But I think there is that you said there's there's a lot of short termism around in regard to how people are approaching this. If you look at these look at these Paul Duxbury: So yeah. Warren Fiveash: ki if you ever bought kitchen Paul, there's always a d there's always a sale one, isn't there? Paul Duxbury: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. And and and we like offers, but they need to be genuine. And Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: I do think you're right, marketing has got a bad name for some of those activities. Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Paul Duxbury: and the difficulty, of course, is that once you get a bad name, a bad reputation, it takes a lot of effort to over overturn that. So yeah, I think there's an awful lot in what you say, and I think good on the government for championing the the the rights of the consumer. But good on those marketers who've anticipated that and realize that that we're not just in it for for the the profit margin today. We're in it for the long run. And and at the end of the day, we're in service of our consumers and customers. We're not looking to exploit them. Warren Fiveash: Totally agree. Totally agree. I mean I'm interested in how the government can reinforce this and make it happen. Be interesting to see how they do that, but that's another story. We'll see how that runs. Paul Duxbury: Yep, see how it runs. Perhaps they'll come and chat to us. We will have some ideas for Warren Fiveash: Anyway, Paul Duxbury: it. Warren Fiveash: yeah, that'd be good, wouldn't it? What are you up to the rest of the week, Paul? Paul Duxbury: Rest of the week. big focus over the next couple of weeks is is essentially turning long sort of half day training courses into short, sharp, one and a half hour, two hour learning experiences. that seems to be a bit of a trend at the moment. That the the temptation is to just try and squeeze everything into a smaller period of time, but then it just becomes cognitive overload on the learners. so what I'm trying to do is is go through the longer form training courses across a variety of marketing topics, work out what really matters, work out what the participants need to understand, and then then keep the the kernel whilst making it digestible within Warren Fiveash: Nice. Paul Duxbury: an hour and a half. And and this is where the seventy twenty-tend model is is is helpful. so for every hour and a half you spend on a training course you've got to spend what another ten and a half hours actually putting that into action to get the full capability build. so yeah I'm working on that and I think that's going to be very interesting to do and it's nice because I have a deadline because I then have to deliver that training in September, October. So that's that's that's Warren Fiveash: That's that. Paul Duxbury: my plan for the next week. amongst enjoying the sunshine. how about you? Warren Fiveash: I am working on some audience work. It's probably the culmination of a long project actually, but we're we've developed some audience profiles that we're now looking to sort of embed a bit further and refine. So I am working with people across the organisation to try and embed that so that people start to use them and they become very core to the process of everything we do. So a lot of that is about making sure these profiles adhere to the things they need and making sure it's clear how they use them. Because I've done this work before and sometimes they can then you create these audience personas or all these profiles and they sit in a cupboard and no one ever looks at them again. So the point of the process now for me is to make sure that doesn't happen and we make sure they're as useful as possible. So that's that's kind of that's what I'm working on the next few weeks, which I'm looking forward to. Paul Duxbury: Well, that'll be good. That'll be good. And and I think, you know, one of the things that occurs to me as I reflect after a period of relaxation is that it's great to be doing stuff, whether it's cycling in France or doing your persona work or modifying those training courses. And and let's let's be focused on that stuff when we're doing it. But it's also good once it's done to take a step back and say, Well, well, what did that mean? Or what did I learn from that? or And what are the insights I can I can take away and apply. so I think there's there's a lot of value in in just having the mental space to do that and that that way we can grow and do better stuff in the future. Warren Fiveash: Yeah, I agree. You need time to reflect and work out what the things are you're doing right and wrong and put things in perspective. And actually a lot of the time you you don't give yourself time to do that, do you? You end up in the tunnel of just going from one thing to the next. So I think you definitely need that. Paul Duxbury: Yeah. Yeah. Warren Fiveash: Yeah. Great. Well, I look forward to hearing more about what you're up to in a couple of weeks, Paul. no more holidays. Paul Duxbury: Excellent. I will I will keep you informed and and and likewise I look forward to hearing how how you've got on and and what you've discovered in the meantime. Warren Fiveash: Great stuff, love it. See you then, Paul. Paul Duxbury: Take care, ciao.