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Holding Yourself So You Can Hold Your Kids with Therapist Sarah Ford · Overstimulated Moms Pod

• April Hankins: Hey guys, before we jump in, I wanted to make sure you knew about some free resources that are available to you. First, I'll share some from my guest today. Her name's Sarah Ford. She's a fellow therapist and also friend in real life. If you go to her website, SarahfordCounseling.com, she has a free resources section where you can get items like a holiday self-care guide and a religious trauma recovery journal. So I highly recommend checking out the resources she's created for you. And if you go to my website aprilhankinstherapy.com you can sign up for my general mom's newsletter which is called Dear2026 Mom at the bottom of my site. Andor you can sign up for our local overstimulated moms clubs which are typically once a month in Canal Fulton, Ohio. If you go to events, you can sign up there to get all the dates and details with a newsletter related to that as well. All right, enjoy the pod. Welcome to the Overstimulated Moms Pod. I'm April Hankins, a licensed therapist on a mission to help you develop secure attachment with yourself, as I do the same. As we do that, our kids can develop secure attachment to themselves as well and with us. Join us as we discuss all things, science and spirit, on a journey together as we discover the magic of the intuition inside of us Hello, over stimulated mom's pod. Today I have Sarah Ford with us, who is a dear friend in real life. So we are in for a treat. she is a fellow therapist with some similar specialties. she specializes in religious trauma, perfectionism, neurodivergent affirming. And so I wanted to bring her on one because she's just like so lovely as a human in general, and then a fantastic clinician. She's also trained in EMDR, which I also use. so I just thought that this would be a great conversation 'cause she's a fellow mom, so she understands mom life in twenty twenty six. so Sarah, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. Sarah Ford: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. April Hankins: Yeah. my gosh, you're a delight and I'm just so glad you're with us. I just want to share, one of the things that I admire most about Sarah is like she has this ability to really be in like what's happening in the world and care about it and like intentionally act, like she, you know, engages in behaviors that align with her values and something I'm always like asking Sarah's like, how do I like know what's happening in the world and still stay sane and She's helped me see the emotions are appropriate and it makes sense that you would feel that way. And I just really admire your capacity to like know what's going on and to have the heart and to hold it and to follow up on this matters to me and I'm gonna do something about it. Whereas for me, you know, it's still a struggle to not keep my head in the sand. And so I just want to like applaud you and let you know like I so admire that about you, Sarah. Sarah Ford: well thanks for saying that. I really appreciate it. I think it's April Hankins: Absolutely. Sarah Ford: one of my ways of coping with the stress sometimes is to lean into it and try to find areas of like empowerment. And so April Hankins: Hm, mm. I like that. Sarah Ford: being like more present in it can help me feel more grounded actually and like a greater sense of empowerment in some very stressful, out of control feeling times. April Hankins: Yeah, I like that reframe that it's like cause when I hear stuff, it's like, my goodness, this is so overwhelming and out of my control. I feel helpless. But it sounds like what you're saying is you like use that feeling to actually motivate you to remind yourself that you're not helpless. I see a workshop in the works, Sarah. Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. April Hankins: all right, so I would love to talk about perfectionism because it comes up so much in my professional sphere. And then for me personally, it's like this it's like this experience of when you realize you made a mistake and you feel just awful and your body gets warm and the shame comes up. It's like this is something that I see women struggling with so much. Also when it comes to decision making and feeling like this paralysis of I can't if I make the wrong decision, it almost feels like life or death. So I'd love to hear you just talk about perfectionism and how you see it manifesting and what you have found to be helpful too. Sarah Ford: Yeah, I definitely relate to so much of what you just said. I think one of the big things that come to mind is attunement to self and being very clear on like my own personal values. Because April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: those are the things that keep me tethered. Even after there's an event in parenting where after the fact I'm like, what just happened? this is April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: not in alignment with me or how I want to show up in this space. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: or I'm spiraling. I think like one of the most helpful things is to return to myself. And a lot of times that is like directly tied to being very clear on what my values are. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: Like both personally but also as a parent. And I think there's overlap there. But I think there can be some there can be some differences there too. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: I think one of the hardest things about being a parent right now, or I'm I think about mothers that we see on social media so often. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: Everything is so perfect. It's so curated. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: like nobody is filming ourselves when we're like, no, I I literally just had like a little tantrum. Like I'm an adult. I April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Sarah Ford: I did not show up in this space in a way I feel good about. and I'm not putting that on social media, you know. This like lovely April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: craft time I had with my kids, and I feel good about that. April Hankins: Yeah. Totally. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: but what I'm trying to say is I think We have access to our own worlds in a way that no one else does. And we get to pick and choose what we let other people in to see. And sometimes that can feel very isolating because everyone else is doing that too. And it looks like there's the appearance that everyone's doing fine or thriving. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: And then when we start comparing ourselves to what we're seeing that doesn't match the reality of, huge chunks of our day that can April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: feel very shame inducing and lonely and could lead to like greater disconnection from self. April Hankins: Hmm. Sarah Ford: Because shame I feel like shame typically separates us from ourselves. April Hankins: Mm. You mentioned word tur oops sorry, go ahead. Sarah Ford: I was just gonna say so when you are returning to self and returning to your values, it can help get like very clear in the midst of what might feel like foggy April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: disorienting in the shame. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. my gosh, the shame. Like I was describing it the other day. It feels just like this goo that's like all over my body and in my body, and it feels like inescapable almost. And I love the phrase like returning to self. It's it's like it's sound it's like all the things that sound so simple, but it's so hard to like grasp in the moment. How Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: do you like practically return to yourself? Like what does that look like for you? Sarah Ford: I would like journaling, which I think a lot of people hate journaling. I'll bring it up with clients. April Hankins: It's like yeah, journaling or deep breathing. It's like, okay, I roll, I've heard this. Sarah Ford: Yeah. And I think part of it too is like especially if you deal with perfectionism, I've noticed that journaling can be a challenge because then you enter into journaling with perfectionism, but I think there are ways to access journaling that you can sidestep the perfectionism. Like if you're really having a hard time, like try bullet journaling. April Hankins: Mm, mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: for for those of you who are like feeling my gosh, I have to like record everything, like April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: almost like a history of your day. that's a lot of pressure. You're not gonna get April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: to much inner work. but like if you can just start with something simple, like the bullets, that can April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: help you like get past that barrier. But I April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: when I go to my journaling right now, like my main priority, like my framework is telling myself to tell the truth. April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: Which is really hard and can April Hankins: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Ford: feel very scary. Even if you're not sharing your journal with anyone else, I think April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: the more honest you are with yourself, like that that is what returning to self is, is being brutally honest with yourself. April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: Sometimes that's going to disrupt like some of your own perhaps like less helpful coping skills. they've gotten you through April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: to a certain extent. But if you are writing something very true in your journal that maybe pushes up against like ideas or expectations you're putting on yourself that feel very conflicting with your personal values, April Hankins: Hmm. Sarah Ford: that can like That can be very disruptive. And it can lead to a lot of good things because it does allow you to rent return to self in a greater way. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: But it also can be challenging because you can be hitting pain points that you might be pushing down, especially as a parent, especially as a mother in society today where a lot of moms are disconnected from self and they're just prioritizing everyone else above themselves. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder if because I can see this in myself that like when I'm avoiding time with myself, for example, sitting down and journaling, there may be some truth there that I don't want to to like manifest and Sarah Ford: Yes. April Hankins: or like some feeling that I am just like, I really don't want to feel it. So I'm gonna constantly have a podcast on. If it's not a podcast, it's gonna be an audiobook. I'm gonna sleep in Sarah Ford: Yeah. April Hankins: till like I'm on the clock. And it's just like That relationship to ourselves, it's like that's the thing that is so nourishing and healing. And it's also Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: the thing that can be like most tempting to avoid because of uncomfortable truths or feelings that it can bring up. But I feel like whenever I do it, I experience like that's where the magic is. And it's just like one of those things Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: that we had to like keep remembering and practice and getting our reps in. But I feel like the ego pool is like, Yeah, let's not go down that track. everything feels comfortable and safe enough and familiar and but it's like, my gosh, when we are connected to our hearts and like being true to ourselves, that is just like that is how life I feel like regardless of the externals can feel like okay enough in our system. Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I can relate to so much of what you just shared and like I mean it made me think of Enneagram, like for anyone who's into Enneagram. I'm an Enneagram nine and so, you know, my big some of my big things are like not wanting there to be like a lot of conflict or I'm I like harmony, I like peace. I'm not avoidant of conflict so much so that I won't step into it. I'll step into it if I value the relationship. April Hankins: Sure. Sarah Ford: I'm I I'm kind of have to step into it in those ways because I don't want to like maintain a false sense of harmony either. April Hankins: Yeah, it'll lead to less harmony in the end. Sarah Ford: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's helpful also to like as I'm reflecting on myself as a nine, like one of my core fears is abandoning others. And so if I don't step into conflict with those I want to maintain contact and connection with, that feels like a type of abandoning others. April Hankins: okay. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: and so But part of that too, so there can be conflict within and I can abandon myself so easily, April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: especially if the truth I'm trying to avoid in my journaling or like in self-reflection time could create disruption, lack of harmony in other areas of my life. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: And n as a nine, it's very natural for me to want to numb out and s and April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: to like disappear from my own life in ways. Not like The people in my circle may not notice it so much because I might overshow up for for April Hankins: yeah. Sarah Ford: them, but disappear in my own life, in my own like inner experience where I am more and more disconnected from who I am and what I'm truly feeling or truly desiring. And I think that self-abandonment, like that can't really happen when you're being very honest with yourself. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Totally. I think self abandonment is such a good phrase and I feel like that's what so many moms experience. Like for me, I feel like before kids, sure, there was still a lot of self abandonment, especially with like certain cheat church narratives that I grew up with. But like Having kids makes it I think so much easier to abandon yourself because there's always these like little beings around that have needs and demands and it's so easy to like just be other centered on them that it can Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: become like a habit and a pattern. And that's why so many moms wake up one day, my g and I see this all the time, I don't even know what I like. Or what do I do outside of kids? Or, you know, like when kids leave the home, it's such a transition phase, like because that identity and that relationship to self has just had so little time and so little oxygen to like really thrive. And so, what I hear you saying is like journaling is a way that we can really try to maintain that relationship to ourselves so we don't lose that. Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: and as we do that we may find aspects of parenting that feel challenging. Maybe we come up with insights or intuition that help us in those moments with the parenting, meltdowns, tantrums, whatever it is. Like we can actually find like, there's actually wisdom inside of me when it comes to the externals. Or even the externals, they might not change, but I'm more grounded and regulated as I'm facing them or holding them. Sarah Ford: Mm. Yeah, because then you're using so much less energy to try to avoid the feelings you've been trying to outrun. Because April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: in some parenting circumstances, like you know, the insight the developing the greater insight can lead to like a better ability to problem solve or more clarity on communication you need to have with your partner and try to redirect things, create more balance. But also there's so much that's out of your control as a parent. And I don't think we hear that very much. Like a lot April Hankins: Yeah, in my Sarah Ford: I would say more often than not, we kind of bypass that and we jump right into, well, there has to be some solution. We have to be able to find a way to make this better. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: Like sometimes you can't. April Hankins: Yeah. And that's how the parenting field has made so much money, right? Because there's lots of courses and experts out there. I heard it described in a book I read, The Good Mother Myth, that talked about like the experts give you like just enough information to make you anxious. And then they say buy this course and I'll basically solve it for you. And I think in early motherhood I can remember with my first US colicky, on Reddit, looking for all these things, should I keep looking? Cause this person says it was a dairy allergy. It's like I feel like we don't know, like when can we stop and know that I really have tried a lot of things and this is something that is out of my control, and I'm just gonna like make space and like hold my kid and love them in the midst of whatever this is. But it's like Sarah Ford: Yes. April Hankins: with all this access and our phone and our pocket all the time, it can become like so all consuming that, there's gotta be a solution out there. And like maybe even I'm only a good mom if I find the solution. And instead Sarah Ford: Yeah. April Hankins: of like coming back to I love this reminder of at the end of the day, like there's so much we don't control when it comes to our kids and their choices and their behavior and their temperament on Adam Grant and Brene Brown had a podcast for a little bit and they said we tend to underestimate nurt our nature and overestimate nurture, which like in our field is probably common, right? Like we talk a lot about like nurture, the environment that we grew up in and family or origin, but like there's also pieces that Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: are just like so out of our control and just kinda like how our baby popped out, right? And so Sarah Ford: Yes. April Hankins: How can we use that to reduce some of the shame? Because I feel like an in some of the shame work I've been doing recently, I realized through the coach that I've worked with that when I'm experiencing inner rage because my three year old is screaming, having a meltdown, having a tantrum. Yes, that's like irritating to my nervous system, but actually how shame is manifesting is I haven't solved this for her yet. Like we haven't gotten past the fact that she's like yelling and screaming when I say no, you know, and so like that's how the shame comes up. And so it really helped me see like it's not just irritation at the fact that like my gosh, that's overstimulating. It's also shame of I have this belief that like I should be figuring this out or this should be done. And so this rage that I'm feeling is Sarah Ford: Yes. my gosh. Definitely. I think like April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: that's so spot on. yeah, cause this like inner belief like somehow this is my fault. Like I'm the mom. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: I should be able to figure this out. April Hankins: So much internal blaming. I see that all the time with moms, right? And I mean, we come by it honestly, right? Like we have so much conditioning that's like your kids are a representation of you or like your responsibility. And I feel like as women, we've been taught that like our identity is like how we look and our relationships. Whereas men, it's more like income and career. And so like Sarah Ford: Yeah. April Hankins: women, we have so much pressure that we're holding inside ourselves when it comes to this parenting sphere. Can you talk about that? Because I feel like in 2027, It's like a whole other ballgame when it comes to parenting because of all the access to information we have. And I feel like so many moms, they have so much information. Like they've read so many books, they've listened to all the podcasts, and yet like we keep coming up against like, it's so much more than knowledge that we need. Like we need these experiences of exactly what you're saying, Sarah, Sarah, of return to ourselves, a relationship to ourselves, secure attachment to ourselves. and that can like ripple out into then how we show up as a parent. parent, but what would you like to share just about general parenting? I know that's another specialty you have on your site too. How would you like encourage parents today or what would you like to share with them? Sarah Ford: Well, I think this takes me to circle back for a moment to when you're talking April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: about the colicky, your experience with your kid when they're colicky. And April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: you said, I think you were saying something to the effect of like feeling this drive to like figure this out, like how do we solve this? And then when it came down to it, like you just had to hold them. April Hankins: Mm, mm. Sarah Ford: And be with them and that really stayed with me when you said that because I found it very relatable, to my experience too. Our first was colicky as well. It was so intense. And you're exhausted. there's no April Hankins: okay. Mm hmm. Very hard. It's so hard. Sarah Ford: tired, newborn parent tired. April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: And if you've never done it before too, if it's your first in their colicky, it can feel April Hankins: Mm, mm. Sarah Ford: like, is this never going to get better? April Hankins: Yes. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: And then it's so easy to compare to, you if your algorithm is focused on you being a new parent, it's all like how to make bedtime easier and how to do this bedtime routine and it seems so simple. And April Hankins: Yes. Sarah Ford: like you said, like just take this course or offering and there has to April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: be an answer and and sometimes there's not. And I I said that before There can be answers. it's good to April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: always be growing and learning and I think we're really good at that though as millennial parents or, you know, younger April Hankins: Totally. Sarah Ford: the younger parents too. Like we have April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: so much information at our fingertips. It can be overwhelming and I think that makes it even more so likely for us to internalize it, like turn it to self then like what's wrong with me? I have more April Hankins: Mm, Sarah Ford: That my parents ever had. I should be able to fix this. and and April Hankins: yeah. Sarah Ford: sometimes we just need to hold them. That colicky baby. April Hankins: Mm, mm. Yeah. Sarah Ford: when he was colicky, I remember one night in particular, like it was just a couple hours of crying. And April Hankins: Mm, yeah. Sarah Ford: to like cope with it myself, I started playing music. April Hankins: Hm. Sarah Ford: Was down in the living room, so it really wasn't like bothering anyone else, but I was just like singing to the April Hankins: Yeah. Well Sarah Ford: baby, but also mostly to me. Because I just needed to regulate. April Hankins: Yeah, regulating yourself. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: And there were so many nights where that happened, where we were just April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: like basically dancing in the dark, and I'm like singing to him, but I'm mostly singing to me. And I April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: think that is a Yes, I'm holding I'm holding the baby. That's what they need. They just need to be held. There's nothing else I can do in that moment. But I'm also April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: like holding myself in some way by April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: creating as much safety and comfort as I can April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: and connection to self. Like music is very connecting for me. And I think that can be true even as your kids get older. I don't have April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: a colicky baby anymore, but I do have young children who, have really big feelings and it can get explosive. And the more I try to show up in that space, like talking it out or trying to fix it or come up with a solution, like the more likely it is to tank. The times that I April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: show up quietly, like April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: Not really saying anything, but my presence being in that space with them, April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: eventually being able to get to a point to use comfort, holding April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: still some form of holding. April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: the regulation is so much more accessible. It's hard to get to that point. Like April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sarah Ford: it still is reminiscent of the colicie nights where you're like, my gosh, is this going to end? Is it again tonight? But like April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: I think parents sometimes forget how much their presence April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: is the magic in parenting. April Hankins: Yeah. I love that phrase. my gosh. Yes, our presence is the magic. So good. yeah, totally. And I'm just like, I love that you mentioned how like when our kids are upset, our go-to can be like we need to problem solve it. Like we need to give them another option, or we need to so like I'm just like, why can't that work? Please, like, can that just start working? Because like that's so often my go-to and it doesn't work. Or it's like, and I think we've laughed about this before, like, you make one kid happy by your problem solving, and then this Sibling is upset by how you intervene. So it's just like, my gosh, it's like I have done it so many times and I've seen like how ineffective it is, but it's just like I guess our adult brain. And if I'm honest, part of it is like I am trying to clamp it down because it's like my nervous system has handled so many meltdowns or tantrums already. It's like I always think about it okay, in theory, I totally understand holding space for our kids' feelings, but like, do they understand how many big feelings they have in one day? Because it is so many. And so, like, as you're describing this like lovely image of just like seeing you walk over to your kids like quietly, I'm like, my gosh, dreams and goals, because I so want to like embody that but what happens is I get so activated, especially when they're fighting each other and I feel this like, my gosh, I have to come in and like it's urgent. But if instead I could like pause and like come back to myself and remind myself, it's actually not an emergency. Like they're they're both safe and I can go in there with a calm presence instead of like this fight or flight mom, that will actually be so much more effective. It's like remembering in the moment and coming back to me is the hard part. Sarah Ford: Totally. And I don't want to paint the picture that I'm always that calm mom. Like, April Hankins: Ha Sarah Ford: absolutely not. Like, just within the last week, I my husband came home and I had a difficult parenting experience with the kids. And April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: I was like, my gosh. I literally was stomping my feet like a child because I'm so dysregulated. April Hankins: Totally. Yeah. Because our bodies are communicating, right? Like that's why like with little kids, people will be like, I don't know. We don't hit them how'd they learn to hit. I'm just like, that's just like their body. That's it's just like our body is feeling like for me when I get like just the other day when I was irritated, the girls like one was upset, then the other one got upset, and I just like I don't know if I stomped, but I like I definitely moved weirdly out of the room and I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't. It was just like my body was just like I had to get out of here. this is flight moment. I just can't hold space for this. And then actually meant since you mentioned music, I remember this was such a win because this is really hard for me to remember to come back to myself. But I played one of my relaxing songs in the kitchen by myself and I danced. And then like I was able to come back Sarah Ford: Nice. Yes. April Hankins: in and and hold space for like them being upset and then like repair for how like my body was communicating. But it's like our bodies are communicating to us, right? Like they're letting us know, like, if we're stomping, if we're shouting, if we have like tone in our voice, that's my go to is like a passive aggressive tone. Like they're letting us know. Like, there's some anger here, honey. Sarah Ford: Yeah. Yeah. And pay attention to it and what is the anger saying to you. And sometimes I am like legitimately angry at like what my kids are doing. But April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: a lot of I am doing that internalized. Why am why is this still happening? Why haven't I solved this? Why don't I know exactly what to do here that's like actually effective? And why isn't it consistent? Because you can find a solution, which implies April Hankins: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: this should be a long-term thing. But that's not always the case either. You might think like, I found a thing, the thing, a thing, and April Hankins: Totally. Sarah Ford: A few days later it's not it's not it anymore. So you just always having curiosity is like a huge resource inner reverse. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember that with I did like a workshop that was called something that would imply like, if you do this workshop, you won't have any more sleep struggles with your kids. And It did help in the beginning, but like you said, it didn't last. So then I feel like then I'm faced with the question, is it because like there's something wrong with me and I didn't do it right? Or is there something wrong with my kid because they're not, you know, following this protocol that like told me it was gonna end the sleep issues? And I feel like that's that is f it's feeding on our desire to be like great moms. Maybe because like we have more knowledge of childhood trauma. So it's like, my Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: gosh, I I need to make sure like my kids like don't have the childhood trauma I had. And because of that, I'm going to make sure like I am reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts, doing all the things. And then like when I don't get the results I think I'm supposed to get. that shame increases and then maybe Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: even causes a compulsion to buy more and read more and do more. and so I just I really love Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: that like you are bringing us back to this point about when it comes to parenting, there's so much that's out of our control and It's like, is that a comforting thing for parents to hear? Or is it like, no, I want to have control, right? please just tell me. If I read this book, it's gonna solve this. But I think parents need this reminder, loud and clear, because I think even in our field, Sarah, in the therapy world, we at times are perpetuating this by like saying, if you engage in this therapy modality, or if you work with this child therapist or this protocol, you're gonna get these results that make anxiety go away forever, depression go away. forever and and I just I I've re- I just think this is such a helpful reminder and I'm so glad that you're highlighting this for us because this only intensifies the shame that we already experience as parents. And so what if we actually were able to like approach our kids as like You are a unique human being and I really can't control you. And if you're gonna have a meltdown, that's important, there's something going on and I wanna be here with I wanna be with you in this and I also wanna be able to separate that, like your meltdown is not a reflection of me as a mom or a human. Sarah Ford: Yeah. That's such hard work. really hard work. But yeah, April Hankins: Totally. Yeah. Sarah Ford: I think that separation, like we can all own our own stuff. Even if they're like a small child or a teenager, like they April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: can have their own human experiences and it's separate from us and who we even are as parents or as individual people. Like we don't have to take April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: that on. Like, yes, we have a role in supporting them throughout their life and also like We can't there's nothing to fix. April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: we're witnessing their life, we are practicing presence in their life and and we're doing what we can to educate ourselves and and support and provide resources, but You can't shield them from everything. You you can't develop the perfect childhood. And I think sometimes that's the quiet goal. we don't want them to have any hardship or heartbreak or suffering or of course, no one wants to see their kid hurt. That's the worst. April Hankins: It's yeah, the hardest. Totally. Yeah. Sarah Ford: And sometimes it's just that's the human experience. it's going to happen. April Hankins: Yeah. letting our kids struggle. It's just like as simple as like, you know, like when they're building blocks when they're young and like they're trying to like attach and you're like, my gosh, I wanna do it for so bad. Like sometimes you do 'cause you're in a rush, you just can't deal with it. But like taking that struggle away from them is so tempting 'cause it my gosh, like there's nothing more that will pull on your heartstrings as a parent is like seeing your child suffer and and Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: yet like really want them to be able to suffer when they're with us so they have that co regulation and presence. So like okay, Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: two things you said. One, that our presence is magic in parenting. I love that so much. Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. Thanks. April Hankins: and I feel like in twenty twenty six that's like hard to give our kids, right? Cause we're in our mind about Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: what else we have to do, or our phone's out, or we're thinking about something else. And then also you said there's nothing to fix with our kids. And I love that also from the lens of, I wonder if like we're kind of projecting on our kids like, there's things that we need to fix because like we feel that way about ourselves too. And like Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: in our field, I think we also can send that messaging like, like if you're experiencing this, like there's something wrong with you. And like we have the solution to like fix that. For you. And what if we could like well, I'll ask you like, if we're not coming at it from the lens of like, I need to fix my kid and I need to fix myself, what do you think is like the way that we could think about like engaging like support and services? Like, how can we engage it in a way that's not shame inducing and instead is like, this is about like returning to myself, not as a Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: project or something that needs to be fixed. Sarah Ford: Yeah, I like that. Cause I think again that like ties it back in, like we're coming back to this circle of returning to self. So like when when our kids are struggling and we are then going into the shame spiral, like I wonder what the thing is under the thing that's like propelling the shame. I April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: think a lot of times When we see our kids struggling and or we're internalizing that we're not making it better, there's April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: a mirror happening at times. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: There's like a raw tenderness seeing our kids April Hankins: There we are. Sarah Ford: go through things that might be reminiscent of our own childhoods or our own insecurities as adults that April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: are just like getting perpetuated by seeing them struggle. Like I do think, there are so many times with my kids that I'm like, whoa, I just saw little me or parts of little me playing out in front of me. Not to like fully assign my experience to them, because that's not fair, but there are times where I'm April Hankins: Sure. Sarah Ford: seeing them struggle that I'm like, that's so familiar. Like, I remember what that April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: was like for me, and it can help me It can help me access more empathy for them in the moment. April Hankins: Yeah, that's beautiful. Sarah Ford: But also like the main thing I think it does is redirect me back to myself of like, there is a part here that needs to be recognized and it needs my presence. Like just April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: my kids need my presence, like I need my presence too. And these like really uncomfortable, April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: tender, raw feelings that are coming up. That are so easy to push away with a sleeve of saltines or a show or, you know, any number of things. Like they April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: deserve to be witnessed by like my inner witness. I think that's like, you know, like things reparenting yourself. I think it touches on that theme, but I also think it's It could be from times that have nothing to do with a period in your life where you associate with being parented. Like April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. love this vision of you caring for the different parts of you that get activated just you care for your babies that you love so much that you take the different parts of you as seriously as you do these are my kids who like have my whole heart and I'm actually gonna take like this anger or afraid or jealous part of me and like hold it just as tenderly as I do my children. Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. When I do that and then when I go usually it's through writing, because that's like my that's my thing, but if I also have like time and space to talk to a trusted friend about it too, like that can be really effective too, like verbally processing. But like when I'm April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: able to like name it and then like put it out of me, like express it in some way, whether I'm holding space for myself on the pages in my journal or a friend is holding space for me and I'm able to put words to the experience. Then I feel like it like lessens the intensity for me and then And building that clarity, reconnection to self, it then creates greater access and spaciousness within me to go show up with my kids in a way that does offer them the presence that they need. I can't April Hankins: Hmm. Sarah Ford: be available to them all the time. Like there's no way. There's too much on us as parents. There's too much going on. But April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: like the way that we're able to show up more fully in those moments we are with them, because we're not separating from ourselves and shoving feelings down, like April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: Hold ourselves, we can hold them. I think I think to be able to access holding them in the way that they need in the limited time we have, we have to offer that to ourselves. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: Or else we're just offering parts of ourselves. April Hankins: Yeah, this almost performative part of how I think a mom is supposed to be versus like one thing my somatic coach said one time is like April, you being a good mom is you being April. And I Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: loved that because it's like it's not gonna be in a book about how to be April as a mom, right? Sarah Ford: Mm. April Hankins: And I just feel like what you're sharing is like the biggest mic drop that every parent needs that Our relationship to ourselves as a mom, as a parent, like matters so much. And I feel like it's the first thing that gets cut off the list, right? Yeah. Sarah Ford: Yes. April Hankins: And that When I'm not present with my kids, sometimes it's because, you highlighted earlier, there is some uncomfortable truth that I don't wanna hold or be with, or some uncomfortable part. And that is actually driving part of my lack of presence. And so I think it again just like highlights are the encouragement to make time for ourselves as moms to have that inner dialogue that's honest about what's actually there. And I I think therapy is such a good vessel for that because you know you just you come in, you know that it's like you know like what I say here is gonna stay here and so like I'm going to say what's actually like going on in my heart. so it you know it feels an honor to be a therapist in that way. And I think also being a therapist, kind of what you were talking about earlier, with how social media is so curated. Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: As therapists, like we get to see that someone can appear very like shiny and curry curated. But like we Sarah Ford: You're April Hankins: get to hold their like heartache and real life and see that. so much of what we see in individuals, we're not we don't really know what's happening behind closed doors. Sarah Ford: Yeah. April Hankins: and I think that your point about what we're seeing on social media is another really good example of what can feel shame inducing when we're comparing to what we're seeing. I just because I'm leading a book study at my church on the book The Relaxed Woman, we were talking about like, you know, how you take care of the home like can feel very stressful and how people have like different standards and so I was like, my gosh, I have to take a video of what my house looks like on a random Wednesday because there is stuff everywhere. The dishes are piled in the sink and that can be shame inducing, but why? Like that And my somatic coach has helped me see this, that is how you know that it's shame, right? Because a pile of dishes in the sink, like isn't actually dangerous or like a threat, but we have these narratives, especially as women, that like the way our home looks is on us and a reflection of us. And actually what Sarah Ford: Yeah. April Hankins: can feel freeing is like having that video and like showing it to a friend and being like, This is like what my house actually looks like, right? And that can help like alleviate some of the shame. Sarah Ford: Definitely. 'cause it pushes up against our inner narratives that we're the only ones struggling. why is this so easy for everyone else or April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. And I think like the house and how it looks can definitely be one moms relate to, 'cause it's like you go to your friend's house and typically it's gonna be tidied and clean, so you can think like, this is like probably how it always looks, right? But like we know what our house really looks like, right? On a random Tuesday night. And it's just Sarah Ford: Okay. April Hankins: it's just like a hot mess. And and if it's not I don't know, you're you're clearly spending a lot of time cleaning and so maybe that's Sarah Ford: Yeah. April Hankins: good. It's an outlet for you, but but I am not. Like when my kids are in bed, I'm like n I don't have time or energy for cleaning. Sarah Ford: Yeah, no. I want my special interests, please. April Hankins: Yes, totally. I so appreciate all the parenting stuff you said. Like I really just want to shout from the rooftops and make sure like what the moms that are listening to this hear is that their relationship, like to whatever they want to call it, whether it's like their hearts, their intuition, their wisdom, their divine, their soul, like that is like where the magic is and where so much of your wisdom can come from that will help you be more present with your kids. And I'd say when a mom seeks therapy with me, that's one of the number one things they say is like I wanna be more present with my kids. And so like what I hear Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: you saying is, okay. And part of that is an opportunity to actually be more present with like what's actually going on inside of you. Sarah Ford: Mm. Yeah. And I think like therapy can be such a safe space to practice that. Like journaling can be really hard and scary. I mean, for one thing, someone could find your journal. But but April Hankins: gosh, that's terrifying. Sarah Ford: But also when you're journaling, you're the one meeting yourself there. And sometimes we're not in the headspace to like hold ourselves with gentleness and kindness. So hopefully, you know, being connected with a therapist could create that sense of safety and help you build a stronger framework of holding yourself with kindness and gentleness and compassion when you are on your own and doing your journaling April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: or talking to yourself. Like April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: that therapy space, you're doing the same thing you would be doing in journaling when you're doing that really hard work of saying the very true thing out loud, inviting another person in to witness your inner world and all the hard, scary things that you've been trying to numb away or run away from, like talking to a safe therapist, I think, is like practicing journaling. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Totally. It's like you're Sarah Ford: Then they can help. April Hankins: your journal is your loving witness and then the therapist can model what a loving witness looks like so Sarah Ford: Yes. April Hankins: you can carry their voice with you to practice it because it feels very unfamiliar to be kind Sarah Ford: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: to ourselves. so I'm so curious because I know you specialize in religious trauma how you see religious trauma maybe like playing a role in some of what we've even talked about with shame and parenting pressure and comparison like how do you see that religious trauma has maybe played any roles in even what we're discussing. Sarah Ford: Yeah. I mean I w one of the like core themes I notice with my clients who come to work on religious trauma is disconnection from self and largely disconnected from I would say even stronger than disconnect from, there's a weaponization of emotion in April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: a lot of high control religious spaces. And so April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: it is extremely common for my clients to come in and not really know what they are feeling. April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: and So it's like rebuilding a muscle, maybe not even rebuilding, just starting to build something because some people never learned to notice their feelings, to April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: honor their feelings. that's that can be April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: such a foreign concept, a very unfamiliar experience, and that can be terrifying because emotions can be overwhelming, it can be uncomfortable, especially if you've learned to use spiritual bypassing to completely overlook any feelings you might have. Or maybe like verses have been used to make you feel scared about your feelings and really like Take away any sense of self-trust, which I think is deeply connected to emotion. I think our emotions April Hankins: Mm. Sarah Ford: are guideposts to give us information, something to pay attention to, to be curious April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Sarah Ford: about, to like hold with gentleness and like an open mind. And a lot of times it's those emotions that help us reconnect with self and give us clarity. And April Hankins: Yeah. Sarah Ford: so like I think that that ties directly to parenting, to sense of shame. Because when you aren't connected to like what's actually going on in there and and really you've been trained to like fear it, distrust it, dissociate from it, like that is going to directly impact your ability to have presence in your life in all facets. Yes. Joy. I was gonna say even happiness I think sometimes is weaponized. But joy that's unshakeable. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. And I want to take one moment because a a memory popped in my mind that I feel like is very applicable and relatable to this conversation. But when I started getting into my own therapy work, it was in the early stages of deconstructing from my own religious trauma and experiences. I wouldn't have would not have even had the language to say that's what was happening when I was going through that work with that therapist. But like essentially that's what was starting to happen. And one of the most helpful Things that she has ever said to me while starting to move through that framework and trying to build a greater sense of self and self-trust, so often she would say, Pay attention, like pay attention to that. When I would start saying a thing out loud of like certain feelings that feel unpleasant or uncomfortable, and I have that like push-pull of I don't know if I can sit with this or if I should even say this out loud. She was so great at redirecting me back to myself and just saying, Pay attention, pay attention to that. And it didn't have to be solved. I didn't need any s any like conclusion at the time. It just starts fostering this idea of like, yeah, you're noticing something. Keep noticing that and and essentially like trust what's coming up for you. And I love that because we can't always resolve a thing. But Pay attention to that. But yeah, you can find information on me on my website. That's the main place. Like I I put a lot into the website. So resources, what it's like to work with me, contact me there. I do blog on there. That's something I would like to do more often. I'll do some more of that. I love writing, so that's a good space to let that out. You can maybe get a better idea of what I'm like. But I don't have like any upcoming events or anything. I'm really just spending my time doing one on one work with clients doing that. So Yeah. Yeah, thanks April. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you on here and I love talking with you all the time. So this is really lovely. I appreciate you. Thanks, you too. Bye. April Hankins: Thank you for hanging out with me. I hope this conversation gave you an experience of connection and a reminder that you are not alone in what you're navigating. If this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to follow the podcast so you get notified of all the future episodes. You can find more about my therapy offerings and the local overstimulated mom's club at aprilhankinstherapy.com. Until next time. From one overstimulated mom to another, I've got your back.