Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / How to manage anxiety and ruminate less #11

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How to manage anxiety and ruminate less #11 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world is free therapy. Hey, everybody, my name is Ben.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm Kevin. And every week, you know this, Ben
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: and I sit down with a different therapist and we
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: talk about this stuff that everybody's struggling with, but nobody
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: says out loud.
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Dude, I'm so pumped for everyone to hear this episode. No, No,
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: we brought on my dear friend, an expert therapist, Kimberly
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: Quinlan on anxiety and rumination.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: She's such a boss, such a boss.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: She's been doing this for so long. She was just
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: doing an interview with Dak Shepherd on Armchair Expert. She's
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: been featuring so many blogs online. She has hundreds of
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: thousands of followers. She is literally one of the best
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: to help you manage your anxiety and rumination.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: One of the funniest things I thought she was telling
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: was how she pulled all of her followers on how
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: often they ruminate. Yeah, and the answer was ninety percent
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: of the day, which is insane. And now you can
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  Speaker 2: relate just because how pervasive anxiety and rumination is in
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: our daily lives. You know.
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  Speaker 3: In this episode, we really focus on the tools that
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Kimberly recommends to live with anxiety better, how to have
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: a better relationship to that anxiety, and what to do
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: when you're ruminating all the time. One of my favorite
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: parts of the episode was when you shared this amazing
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: trick for what to do if you're spiraling at two am.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I thought it was so funny, it was perfect. So
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: if you struggle with any of this, which I know
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: many of us do, I think you're gonna love this episode.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Enjoy the show.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Hi, Kimberly.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Therapy, Welcome.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: I am so happy to have Kimberly here. I have
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: known Kimberly for years and she has been an amazing
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: resource in my life around anxiety and OCD and a friend.
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: She is so so good at.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Calling my anxiety. She is so good at making me
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: feel less alone in my anxiety. And I cannot wait
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: for everyone to soak up all of your knowledge.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: So you're not Ben's therapist. You've just been giving him
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: free therapy. Is that what I'm hearing?
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: No, I think he's like, I know, I feel like
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: I don't know how to say it. I think I
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: feel like just really a beautiful friend who I love
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: being there for. I guess yeah, but that's the point.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I think friends friends are free therapy.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, it's true.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: That's yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And my dream has been to surround myself with therapists
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: as friends so I could just get free therapy.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: So, Kimberly is a marriage and family therapist and she
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: specializes in anxiety and OCD and she has been just
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: like all over in the last ten years online doing
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: such good work. She's been featured in the La Times,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: the Seattle Times, the International OCD.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: She was on Armchair Expert with Dak Shepherd.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: She's just so so good at this. She has an
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: amazing following online. Everyone will be able to find her later.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: And on this episode, we just wanted to get into
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: anxiety and rumination and why so many of us suffer
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: from it. Everyone has anxiety and everyone struggles with it,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: and everyone wants to know how do we get.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Rid of it? And I'm excited to dig it.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: On this episode, I wanted to start with a little
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: bit of something that I struggle with personally, is when
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: there's uncertainty in my life, how much anxiety it causes me.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: And when that uncertainty shows up, whether it's is this
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: job the right job for me? Do I need to
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: switch jobs? Whether it's my health and what can happen
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: in the future, whether it's you know, a girl that
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: I've been dating in the past and she hasn't responded
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: if she likes me, right, like, when that certainty shows up,
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: I get so much anxiety and it just creates this
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: voice in my head that makes me feel like stuck.
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  Speaker 1: Is that normal?
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  Speaker 5: Yes, it's very normal. Anxiety is in a very normal
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: human emotion that is trying to keep you safe. So
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: if your brain detects a potential danger, it's going to
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: set out an alarm in your system, whether that be
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: through physical discomfort, your heart increases, your tummy hurts, or
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: it's going to increase by having you go over very quickly.
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  Speaker 5: All the potential possibilities and how can we solve this
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  Speaker 5: so that it doesn't happen. That is why we are alive.
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  Speaker 5: That anxiety response stops you from putting your hand on
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  Speaker 5: the hot plate at home, it stops you from running
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  Speaker 5: out onto a highway. However, there are people who are
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: genetically set up to have more anxiety, and that alarm
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  Speaker 5: gets set off way sooner than necessary, or in situations
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  Speaker 5: that actually aren't dangerous, but we experience them as being dangerous.
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  Speaker 2: So someone is feeling a ton of anxiety, it's affecting
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: their life in a big way, and they go to therapy.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: How are you supporting someone through that through that journey?
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  Speaker 2: Do you sounds like you don't get rid of it? Right? Okay, great,
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  Speaker 2: so then what do you do?
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  Speaker 5: Well, it's a loaded question. So the first thing I
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: do when I'm with clients is we readjust expectations and
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: what I don't I don't mean that we lower your expectation.
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  Speaker 5: We adjust it. Because you've got to understand that if
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: you're trying to get rid of anxiety, you're actually fueling
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: more anxiety. We all have it. We all have anxiety.
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: But if your response to anxiety is oh, no, I
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: don't want this, this is bad, this is terrible, you're
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: actually training your brain to be anxious about anxiety, right,
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  Speaker 5: And so the goal isn't to get rid of it. However,
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: that's not to say there are so many different modalities.
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  Speaker 5: I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist that help people overcome anxiety,
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  Speaker 5: meaning it doesn't take up their functioning anymore, it doesn't
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: take away their quality of life. So I want to
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: sort of give people hope, like you can go on
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: to live a life where anxiety doesn't make the shots,
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  Speaker 5: it doesn't make your decisions. You can live here. I
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: live my life every day where anxiety doesn't call the shot.
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  Speaker 5: That doesn't mean I'm rid of anxiety.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: That was a big thing that can really helped me
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: with Years ago. It was always I talked about this before,
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: Why am I so anxious? I don't like that I'm anxious?
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: And then that thought alone made me more anxious, and
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: so for me, and I'd love for you to give
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: your version of this, but for me, it was, Man,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: I'm feeling so anxious right now, And immediately my brain
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: would go to why I'm maying all that, But instead
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: it's I'm feeling really anxious right now, And that makes
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: a ton of sense. Yeah, something happened with my job recently,
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: and I'm in a new environment and the future is unknown.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: It's completely normal to be anxious. So what are a
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: couple of things I can do right now to help
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: me get another job?
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: Yeap.
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  Speaker 3: People want to get rid of anxiety, and that's the problem. Yeah,
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: that you learn how to live with it, you get.
• 7:08
  Speaker 5: To want to get rid of it. No one wants
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: to suffer, Yeah, right, So it makes sense that we
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: don't want it, but my job is to teach people
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: how to have a different relationship with it. You cannot
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: want it, you cannot like it. But if your reaction
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: is contraction, you are making it worse. You are strengthening
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: that cycle in your brain, and you will have more anxiety.
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  Speaker 5: So I'll always say to clients, like, the work we
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: do in therapy is for the like one month you
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: in a month's you're not going to get an immediate
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: Maybe you'll get some relief like just being and feeling
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: heard and feeling understood and feeling like you've got a
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: direction and skills. That's really important. But we're actually changing
• 7:51
  Speaker 5: the neuropathways in our brain today so that we can
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: help the six month us or the three months us.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's the five year me. Yeah,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: like I worked on stuff five years ago in therapy
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: that I'm like, thank god in my relationship now, Yes,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: thank god I've worked on that.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of anxiety too, And this is hard.
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  Speaker 5: We do a lot. To answer your question again, so
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: someone comes into therapy with me, the first part of
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: therapy is education. It's not like tell me how you
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: feel like, that's not the kind of therapy that I do.
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  Speaker 5: It's a lot of education. Having them understand why their
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: brain keeps tricking them, of course, why they end up
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: responding in these faulty ways. Like having them understand that
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  Speaker 5: is so important. And then we put together a plan
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: of attack and the plan of it because it is
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  Speaker 5: a game. It's a game you play with anxiety. If
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: you do what anxiety wants you to do, anxiety will win.
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  Speaker 5: It will win. And so we are playing a game.
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  Speaker 5: It's like who gets the most points, anxiety or you?
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  Speaker 5: And we look at how can we get more points
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  Speaker 5: than anxiety can get? And that often means we face
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: our fears, we do the things that scare us. And
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: let's say we're in the first session and they're like,
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: I love that, Kimberly, I can. I know it works,
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  Speaker 5: the science shows that, but is there another package goodbye
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  Speaker 5: that requires me to just not have the anxiety and
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  Speaker 5: then I'll be fine? Yeah? And I always say, if
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: they can figure that out, we can go into business
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: and we'll make millions of dollars. But that's not likely.
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  Speaker 5: Even with medication, you're still going to need to change
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: your response to anxiety.
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  Speaker 2: So what's the tactic in the moment when someone's feeling
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  Speaker 2: very anxious that they can incorporate and use to reduce
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  Speaker 2: our anxiety.
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  Speaker 5: Well, there are so many pieces to this, and it
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: does take a while, Like this would have to be
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: like a six hour podcast, which I know we can't
• 9:47
  Speaker 5: do today. But I think one of the most important
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: things to take away is just because you think something
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  Speaker 5: doesn't mean it's true. A thought is not a fact.
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  Speaker 5: We don't have to respond to every thought we have.
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  Speaker 5: We have hundreds and thousands of thoughts a day. Most
• 10:09
  Speaker 5: of them are trash, right, So you can put many
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: of the especially the anxious ones, you can put a
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: lot of them in the spam folder. They do not
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  Speaker 5: require our attention. They don't require us to be like
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: solving them and resolving them and relieving ourselves from them.
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: We can just be like, oh, thanks, brain, good one, Yes,
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  Speaker 5: I hear you, Thank you, and then move on.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Why do the thoughts feel so real?
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Like you think you have the thought, and you're like, oh,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: it's definitely real, a real thought, it's true, and it
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: gets you're like in your gut, You're like, this is real,
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: But how do you know it's not? How do you
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: know if you should ignore a thought or you should
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: listen to a thought.
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: Well, I would say if it feels urgent, and if
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: you looked around and there's not a bus coming for you,
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: like if your actual core fear, you're you're probably it
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: probably is a thought.
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah that's true.
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: You know, and I know that this is where it's
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: very nuanced. Right, Like, let's talk about an example of
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: health anxiety. So someone might have a headache and then
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: have the thought, what if this is a brain tumor.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I literally have that a brain tumor. Yeah, I have
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: to start and no, I have this thought.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: It doesn't do anything.
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: What looking what doesn't?
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't do anything. It isn't anxious.
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: Don't don't treat thoughts like they're.
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  Speaker 2: In Wow, that was deep.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: It's funny.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: I literally will get that is all knocking on what
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: is like, don't jinx it.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: It's just like I had an anxious thought and you responded, yeah,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: don't do that.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Gosh, Kevin, why did you do?
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: That's just learned something. I just learned something.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: So by knocking on the word, you're feeding the anxious thought.
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, unless you have some special magical like magic. I
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: don't know about knocking on wood does not help your outcome.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we think we can. By knocking on the wood,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: we're helping prevent a certain It.
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: Makes you feel like you have some certainty.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: See, I have to sit with the uncertainty that maybe
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: down the road I could get a brain tumor.
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: And the thought. Just because we have thoughts doesn't mean
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: it's fact. So even if I have a thought that
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: it could be a brain tumor, I'm still not going
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: to give it that attention. Now, this takes thousands of
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: wraps of practice. But how do you get really awesome biceps? Yeah,
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: you do dozens and dozens of bicep calls and it's
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: totally worth it. Right, So it's just a muscle that
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: you have to strengthen.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so is it the self talk muscle? Is that
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: all we're strengthening when you talk about doing that? Like,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: what is the equivalent of the curl for anxiety?
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: It's a really good question. It is both. Well, again,
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist, so it's not just cognitions. Okay,
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: cognitions alone, So I could go and I'm not. Let
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: me be clear, I'm not saying it's not a tumor.
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: I'm not saying because I don't know that, I'm not
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: brainwashing myself with positivity. I'm saying maybe it is, but
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: we're not tending to it right now. I'll probably roll
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: my eyes and be like, thank you brain once again
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: for trying to bring my attention to this. But right
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: now it's like Monday, and I want to hang out
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: with my friend Kevin Ben, So we're not doing this
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: right now. So there is a cognitive component, but the
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: behavioral component is also that I'm not going to tighten
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: my shoulders and I'm not going to be hyper vigil
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: and kind of feel the back of my head. I'm
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: not going to sit on the cop Sometimes when I'm
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: really anxious, like ten out of ten, nine out of ten,
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: you probably resonate with this is like you can't do anything.
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: You just kind of like stare at the cup and
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: be like I can't move, like I'm so freaked. You're
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: so you can get stuck. And so for me it
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: would be like Kimberly, you're stark, right, Okay. What would
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: the non anxious me do right now? They would wash
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: the dishes? Okay, I'm going to get up and I'm
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: going to go wash the dishes, and I'm going to
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: feel the feeling of the SuDS on my hands, the
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: warmth of the water, the feeling of the gloves, or
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: whatever it might be. I'm going to bring my attention
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: back to the present. I'm not going to wash the
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: dishes while going Well, it could be a humor and
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: I die and I wouldn't see my kids get married.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: And I'm that's just ruminating. Yeah, So it's cognitive and
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: its behavioral.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: So the babyel just is acting yourself out of the anxiety.
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: The question that I probably ask every day to most
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: of my clients is what would you do if anxiety
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: wasn't here? Go do that?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Hmm, what would you do if anxiety wasn't here? Go
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: do that? Nice?
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna ask about more about rumination now,
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: because when you get anxiety, you get worried, and then
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: you ruminate about that worry, and then it makes anxiety less.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: What are some tactics to stop the ruminating?
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: They're very similar to what I had just talked about.
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: So number one is awareness, because most of us are
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: ruminating and we don't even know it. Yeah, I just
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: pulled on social media and said how much of the
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: day do you spend ruminating? The majority said ninety percent.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, sounds a right.
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: But the thing is that doesn't mean they're just sitting
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: on a couch thinking. Most of them are out and about,
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: highly functioning. They're a lawyer, they're a mom, they're a teacher,
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: they're in high school. But while they're doing those things,
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: they're ruminating.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: This is me, It really is, Like, I.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Agree, that's true.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: I ruminate all day every day close to and I
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: try not to, but I ruminate. It's just subconscious now,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: and I'll be doing multiple things at once. I'll be
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: working on a podcast prep episode, I'll be focusing on
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: the work I have to get done later, and I'll
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: be ruminating about something that happened last night, and I'll
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: be worrying about something in the future.
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: Why are you doing that? And I don't mean that
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: in like a judgmental way, Like what when when you're
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: working with someone on rumination, I want to know what
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: benefit it brings you, because it does. Just like imagine
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: if someone's drinking or an alcoholic, I also want to
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: it's obviously benefiting them in some way. They're not doing it,
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: you know, just to punish themselves. There's a benefit. So
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: what's the benefit to you? How does it very help?
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: It doesn't help any I know, it doesn't help. It
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: gives me the illusion.
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: Of comfort, so it does it gives you short term relief?
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think the soothing, the wanting to
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: soothe my anxiety is the compulsion, right. I don't want
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: to feel anxiety, so I ruminate about it, and the ruminating,
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: I think will give me relief. Yeah, And I look
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: to ruminate to give myself relief. I don't really ever
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: get relief, but I think I will, and I guess
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: I do get it when I think I solve it
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: in my brain when there's a when I tie the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: pieces together and somehow makes sense, I do it. And
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: then I call Kevin like, yoah, I figured it out,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Like that doesn't make sense to me? Yeah, what are
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: you talking? And I'm like, oh, only in my head
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: it makes sense, yeah, because it actually isn't. It's mixed
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: in my brain. And then somehow I think I've solved it.
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: Well, you've kind of answered the question yourself, because you
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: kind of work what I heard you say. But correct
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: me if I'm wrong, is it does give you some
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: little spurts of relief, and it does give you relief
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: from the physical discomfort that you feel in that moment.
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: So it's working right right, except it's not right right,
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: And so the next step once you can become aware
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: of it, and that's number one, I'll have you do logs.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: I'll have you jot it down. We want to know
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: when you're ruminating, what's the You know, often there's it
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: could be all day, but often it's like, oh, it's
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: the worst in the evening, or it's worse in the morning,
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: or it's worse when I'm around my partner, or it's
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: worse when I've got a date. Like we can find
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: like little tricks and clues. But then you answered it
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: is you don't want to feel your feelings. So the
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: next step is, can we practice, in small baby steps
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: feeling your feelings skillfully, And we'll start with thirty seconds,
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: we'll start with ten seconds, and you'll build up from
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: there and you'll start to notice some sort of mastery
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: of oh, I can feel a feeling.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: Most of the time when people say, oh, I found
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: the solution, once they learn how to not ruminate, they
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: realize it wasn't actually the ruminating, it was just time
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: to help them find the solution. And I'll often say
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: to people, schedule time to solve problems. Someone asked me
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: last week, but I have to go to Florida next week,
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: so I need to sit down and like, book the hotel,
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: book the rental, pack my bag. Are you telling me
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: I can't plan for the future, And I'm like, no,
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: we want to have very very stern rules of like
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: there are times when you sit down and you get
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: work done, but beyond that time, we don't solve that thing.
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: It doesn't mean you can't problem solve. If you know
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: that you're going to Florida next weekend, you can say,
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: from five o'clock to five thirty, I'm going to book
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: the rental, I'm going to book the hotel, I'm going
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: to pack look at what I need to pack. But
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: then beyond that, after that, your job is to be
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: uncertain and be uncomfortable with the anticipatory anxiety about that event.
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: And then it's feeling your feelings and if you can
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: learn to have any discomfort and soften around it and
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: to be tender with yourself and say to yourself. Listen,
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: I feel it. I know it's here, this emotion or
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: this tightness in my chest. Don't call it. Some people
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: will say, no, it's a bad feeling. Don't say that,
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: because that's just going to make your brain think that
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: it's unsafe. I'm noticing. Just get really granular. I'm noticing
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: a tightness in my chest. It's hard to breathe right.
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: And how can I just soften and allow that feeling
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: to be there as it rises and falls on its own,
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: because it will, it will rise and fall on its own.
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: And how can you have a relationship with it where
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: it's not the problem and you're not going to treat
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: it like it's a problem. It's just a part of
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: being a human. The response, the actual getting rid of
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: anxiety is paradoxical because you actually have to do the opposite,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: and which is to stay and not run, act as
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: if there's not danger. It's a complete opposite. I actually
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: had a client once it was like, so you're basically
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: telling me to do the opposite of fear every time,
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: And I was like, well, I'm not absolutely saying that,
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: but he was like, that works for me, that makes
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: sense to me. Let me try that for a week
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: and he came back and he was like, that blew
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: my mind.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: So do the opposite of fear. Brain tells you this
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: is dangerous. Do the opposite as if it's not. Was
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: that other practice of that client, Yeah, yeah.
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: Because he wanted to run. He wanted to avoid every time.
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: Avoidance is huge. Rumination is huge. Avoidance is huge, right.
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: You know we talked about, you know, loss of functioning
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: from anxiety. The other big issue is quality of life.
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: And most of the time, by at the time someone
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: sits across from me, they have said no and avoided
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: so much in their life, the things that really matter.
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: Often by the time they see me, nothing matters. They
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: don't even know what the point of being a human
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: is because they've stopped there hobbies, they've stopped their relationships,
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: they've stopped going to coffee. Maybe they took the job
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: they didn't want out of fear. It's an Avoidance is
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: a big piece of anxiety as well.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Some of the best advice I got around the fear
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: of like I don't want to do something because I'm
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: afraid something bad will happen, or what's it going to
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: be like if it doesn't work out the way I
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: want to do it. Some I think meet you or
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: my mom or my current therapist. I forgot who gave
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: it was like, I don't care if you're scared, do
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: it anyway.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: That would have made me.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: She's like, do it scared, yeah, and that was like
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, Like, I don't know if I'm
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: ever going to get rid of the fear.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: The fear is just whatever, the fear is there. Yeah,
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: it doesn't matter why it's there.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I just get.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: Everything scared now and it gets less scary over time,
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: but the initial fear is always big. But the muscle
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: of doing it scared now is a muscle.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: I just like, don't put the exact same weight on
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: the fear.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, just do it. Yes, And you know, sometimes it doesn't.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: Work out, but it's better than doing something different or
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: not doing it.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: So I have a podcast and at the very end
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: of every podcast we say the same thing, which is,
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: it's a beautiful day to do hard things. And that's
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: because in anxiety we just want to avoid hard things
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: all the time. Life's hard enough when you have anxiety.
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: The idea of like I don't want to make it worse,
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: but that's again that paradoxical thing is you have to.
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: You know you don't have to. I would strongly encourage
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: you to do the hard things and put in as
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: many reps as you can. So. The clients of mine
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: who do really well, whether it's generalized anxiety, OCD, health anxiety,
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: social anxiety, panic disorder, you know, phobia, whatever it might be.
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: The ones who do really well seek out scary things
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: on purpose. They like can be. And this is where
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: I say, I don't want to hear you come in
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: for a session where you're like, you'd be so proud
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: of me. I had no anxiety this week. I'm like, boom,
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: not good, not good. I want you to come in
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: and say you would be so proud of me. I
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: went on a date this week and I went to
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: the coffee shop. If they weren't able to, or I
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: brushed my teeth, if you they weren't able to, like
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: I want to hear, I had six panic attacks this
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: week and I let them rise and fall. That's what
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: I want to hear. I want to hear that you
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: on purpose did lots of mini raps where you are
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: building a healthy relationship with physical discomfort and with scary
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: thoughts where you don't respond.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: That's hard.
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it is hard and it sucks.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you talked about self talking and the cognitive part
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: that first piece. Can you actually say some things that
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: you would suggest someone says to themselves. You've sort of
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: done it here and there. But if you had, like
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: someone that's in the middle of that rumination it's in
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the middle of anxiety, or someone you know had We
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: did a Q and A on on social We got
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: a bunch of people. We asked, you know, if you
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: have questions on anxiety and rumination, and one was I
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: get deep into rumination and it's always late at night.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I wake up at two in the morning and then
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: I can't fall back asleep for hours because I just
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: start ruminating about all this stuff that I'm anxious about. Yeah,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: like in that moment, they can't go into another behavior.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: They can they can't go act. There's two in the morning. Yeah,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: what do you do?
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: So it's funny. I just did an episode on this
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: as well. Was a question that I got. So the
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: thing to remember here is you can't just show up
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: to the golf course and expect yourself to swing beautifully
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: if you haven't practiced a lot, you know, during the day,
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: like at other times. So for this person, you're going
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: to need to practice these skills sort of that we've
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: been talking about today on repeat during the day so
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: that you get a benefit in those moments when the
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: lights are out. You can't of distract, you can't avoid,
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: So it is work. I give a lot of homework
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: because it is work. What we're doing. We're having to
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: change massive neuropathways in your brain, so it does take reps.
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: So I would encourage them to be practicing bringing their
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: attention catching like we were talking about catching the rumination
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: during the day, bringing your attention back to the present,
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: you know, not treating thoughts like they're important, responding like
• 26:40
  Speaker 5: the non anxious you would like, and do it on repeat,
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: like again and again and again and again. Like I
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: really just want to stress here that it's really the
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: same practices over and over again. That's where you get
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: the biceps you're looking for. The other thing here is
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: our brain gets loud at night. I strongly encourage you
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: to have a pre planned thing, a practice, a routine
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: that you will use at night. For me, if I
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: wake up in the night and I'm anxious, it's usually
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: because I've got some stress during the day or something's
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: bothering me during the day. I plan my ninetieth birthday.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: You plan your ninetieth birthday.
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: Every time I've planned.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: It's such a such an interesting I've never advice.
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: I'm not. I have planned cowboy birthday parties. I have
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: planned themed birthday parties. I have planned. You just pick
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: a new theme and you plan it.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: And what would you do on your ninetieth birthday? Cav
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: What would you do on your ninetieth birthday?
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Oh my god?
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: If you just plan it, and it's better than ruminating
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: about ship, you can't contry.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: You're redirecting your thoughts. So smart.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Okay. Wow.
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: So it's like, Okay, I'm really worried about that one
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: client of mine. I'm really worried about my son or
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: my daughter, or my husband or or my parents or
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: any of those things. And I go, Okay, you're ruminating.
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: Number one. I've become aware. Number two, you can't do
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: anything about it right now. It's three in the morning,
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: right and it's not kind to do it right now.
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: So let's pick a theme. Okay, toy story, let's go
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: all right, we're gonna need toy story themed tablecloths, toy
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: story themed cups, what outfit I'm gonna be Buzz light
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: Year or whatever his name is. Like, that's what I
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: do until I fall asleep, and that works. This is
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: not science proved what it works for it, but it
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: is a skill of cognitive hero therapy, which is attention control.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Ah, so the skill you're actually basing this off of
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: is attention control because what's happening. I'm trying to just
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: really get specific on this. When we ruminate, our attention
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: is focused on the anxiety.
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: The future, on the future, on the uncertain, catastrophes.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: The catastrophes, and that causes to go down that spiral.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And then said, you're just redirecting the attention.
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: So again, it's a game. Who gets the point? Is
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: anxiety getting the point? Or am I getting the point?
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: If I'm planning my ninetieth birthday out of you know,
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: and the theme is Cowboys, I get the point.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, can we double click on that the game thing?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Because you said that earlier, So how I understand that
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: is that the anxiety is ever going to stop. That's
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: an opponent that you're playing against. Yeah, and you can
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: play some defense. But if you just play defense and
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: don't play any offense, you're never gonna win the game. Yeah,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: so you actually have to redirect by playing some offense
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: the attention. Yeah, is that what you're playing? Yeah, amazing.
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: So you do play defense and you play offense. It
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: has to be a balanced game because you can play
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: just one, but your outcomes are better if you've got
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: offense and defense. So yes, during the day, you're playing offense. Right,
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: How can I face my anxiety? How many reps can
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: I get in of being anxious, being uncomfortable? Bringing my
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: attention to the future? You like, I call it the
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: hundreds game. Get me a hundred points today. That's your homework.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: I need one hundred points, and one.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Hundred points is through behaviors, just through new actions, is
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: through facing the fears, not running.
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Then at the in the for the rest of
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: the day, when you're not accumulating points, you are practicing
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: you sometimes defense like a good one, Brain, Yeah, like sometimes.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: You love that one. Yeah, it's because it's funny.
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: It is, well, you can go as fire as brain.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: I love how you're trying to get me scared again.
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I always say, bring on the drama brain like,
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: it's like fine, Like sometimes you were.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Doing a weird voice. I've heard about that.
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, I've had clients. I don't personally, but sometimes
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: I'm even like brain.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: Pick up.
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: I actually have a client who does it in like
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: a Texas accent, and it makes me. I can't do it.
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: It actually makes me laugh and I actually blush every
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: time he does it because I'm just.
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: Like, oh my god, it's so uncomfortable, but it's so funny.
• 31:08
  Speaker 6: It is so funny that you know it's fine, like
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: anything that helps you diffuse from the thoughts as if
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: they're important, so you can put your own swing to it.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: One therapist told me to give it like a nickname,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: and the nickname that like you can make fun of
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: it like Johnson yea, hey, Billy.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Bobby, you're funny.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Billy Bob, what are you doing here?
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Get out of it?
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: Like it just like and you're really try to make
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: yourself laugh. Another one I do is like I yell,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: bring it on, Yes, I'm like, let's fucking go, let's go.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: I was like, I will fuck you up and.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: I will literally like come on, what you want to
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: do it?
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Take take my job? Will take my money. Take. I
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: was like, I got this, like, don't mess.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: With me, and then I get like angry at it,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: and then I feel stronger than that thing I'm afraid of.
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: Because if anxiety is at a ten out of ten,
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: you have to match it attitudinally.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: What yeah, yeah, attitudally yeah. Oh, because anxiety is so intense.
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: Yes, if it's a magic with ten or higher. If
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: it's at a three, yeah, you could be like oh
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: good one brain and this walk like that. But if
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: it's at a ten and ten, that's the attitude you
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: need to come right too, bigger than yeah.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great advice.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: That's really great advice in whatever emotional state. Maybe it's
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: the aggression, maybe it's laughter. Yeah, but in any.
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, except for the only sort of thing I would
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: say here is like a caveat is some people get
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: angry when they're anxious, and then they might throw something. Right,
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: we're not talking about that. We're talking about like, let's
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: de off and go year right, And so just for
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: people listening, I'm not saying like throw your phone right,
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: like I'll be like in.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: A shower screaming like oh.
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: God, yes exactly, as long as you're still create. You're
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: doing it in a way where you're saying, bring it.
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: I want you. I'm willing to be anxious.
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: But if you're like, I don't want to feel this,
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: like this is a word like, that's the opposite.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the opposite, the anxiety worse.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to double click as well on
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: the attention to control. So what another version of that
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: may be be I want to just give youple more
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: ideas because and give myself more ideas too, in those
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: moments you have your ninetieth birthday? Would another one just
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: be like planning a dream vacation. It doesn't anything, just
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: anything you can put your attention on.
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: Anything that is building the you you want to build again,
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: the management of anxiety is short term discomfort for long
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: term gains. Rumination and avoidance is short term comfort with
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: long term discomfort.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: So much of you maybe rumination anxiety. I think that
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: social connection is often and an antidote for it.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, like so much.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: And all that really is to your point is intention control.
• 34:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're with someone, it's really difficult. When you're
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: connecting with someone, it's really difficult to be worrying about
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: some shit that doesn't exist. Yeah, so if you're with
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: your friend, you're not ruminating.
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: And we heal in relationship with people. You know, at
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: the end of the day, we are relational beings. So
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: you know, your fear of conflict is probably you know,
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: the fear of being alone one day and having to
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: you know, there there's really only four or five core fears.
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: They all come down to one of them, the most
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: common being that I'll be alone forever.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if someone has that fear, is it the same process?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Is there anything?
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: Same process?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Same process?
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Such good advice, Kim, really.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on.
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Can you tell people where they can find you online?
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: And then she also has had an amazing workbook that
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: I've taken. Just want me like plug all the things
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: people can learn, because I think everyone should. She so
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: much good information online for free yah, and has other stuff,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: but yeah.
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: Thank you. I have a podcast called Your Anxiety Toolkit.
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: I have a whole bunch of online courses that were
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: created for folks who can't afford therapy. So I have
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: a private practice.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: I have a private practice in California with staff who
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: work for me, but we have almost a course for
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: all of the anxiety conditions, and that is for people
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: who don't have access to, you know, mental health care.
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: I have a workbook called the Self Compassion Workbook for
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: OCD through New Harbinger Publications, and you can catch me
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: at your anxiety talkit on most social media platforms.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: It's so useful.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: I've seen the courses, I've done the workbook, I follow
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: on social media. Even if you just need a little
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: bit of like support, a little bit of left in
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: your day, it just makes you feel a little bit
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: less alone.
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: Your content's amazing. Thank you. Yeah, it's it's fun.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: I love it.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Awesome, thank you amazing.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for listening. We appreciate you.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: talking about our feelings, you.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Are definitely going to like everything else.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Follow on on Instagram at free therapy and we'll see
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: you next time.