Latest / Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery / Out of the Hurt Locker

Transcript

Out of the Hurt Locker · Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery

• 0:07
  Speaker A: Welcome to Emotional, the next step in recovery with Dr. Alan Berger and Tom Rutledge.
• 0:14
  Speaker B: I had a client share a nutshell with me the other day that I thought was brilliant. It's called the struggle. If it were any easier, it would be meaningless. If it were any harder, it would be impossible.
• 0:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, you got to stay in that zone of. For whatever reason, that title, the Hurt Locker, just came to me. A text brushstroke. You got to stay in that point of tension, pushing past your limitations, but not so much that you get completely crushed.
• 0:43
  Speaker B: James Redfern is his name. He's an incredible poet. He is one of the brightest men I've ever met, and he thinks in ways that are unbelievable. She's in another dimension than I am.
• 0:59
  Speaker A: The only growth that happens for me is being past my comfort zone and really just pushing me to get to the next rung. And my tendency is just to go towards comfort and pleasure. And when I'm feeling good, that's a signal that my lizard brain gets that I'm on the right path and I'm doing well in life, when really, what I've learned with emotional sobriety and in recovery is that, yeah, that is not a useful barometer for the progress that I'm making or how well I'm doing is oftentimes I don't. I don't feel very good because I'm growing. You know, it's like the muscle is in the process of tearing and growing bigger.
• 1:44
  Speaker C: And so the weightlifters don't complain about the weights being heavy. First of all, there's other ways to grow. Repetition is one of the ways we grow. We could say this. This is a painful thing or a difficult thing, because repetition can be really boring.
• 1:58
  Speaker B: See, one of the things that emotional sobriety does in my own personal experience with it, and I think that experience and testimony from a lot of people now that there's a growing community of people really applying these ideas and practicing, as Tom's saying, really practicing this way of life, it starts to move us towards an unshakable foundation. Now, that doesn't mean that we're not shaping at times, because we are. But see, the attitude that's inherent in what Mr. Redfern was saying is that no matter what happens to us, it can be of value to us. It's not just the things that go our way and that we feel good about and that we like when things turn out. Course we do. You know, we all enjoy that, but it also gives us a way of being present to those experiences. That before we would have dreaded, that we would have hated that this was happening. My God, I can't wait till this is over. And now, yeah, we'd like it to get over, but in the meantime, we're trying to learn as much as we can about ourselves and how we can develop and continue to develop the ability to cope with life on life's terms. To be able to deal whatever car or to handle whatever card life is being dealt to or what life is dealing to us.
• 3:38
  Speaker C: You just said the word learn. It's like, the difference is when we become conscious about this stuff, it doesn't have to be exactly my words, but at some level, come to understand that we are here or are here to learn or that we have the opportunity and responsibility to learn. And that gives a total reframe on your day.
• 4:03
  Speaker B: I am convinced that one of the reasons we avoid going towards our pain and dealing with these situations is because we don't have faith in our ability to cope with them.
• 4:15
  Speaker C: Absolutely.
• 4:16
  Speaker B: That, you know, it's back to this thing of, my God, you know, Self esteem is comprised of those two components, right? Feeling like you have confidence that you can handle whatever issues life is setting before you, as well as feeling worthy of being loved and successful and worthy of your happiness in some ways, or worthy of feeling good about yourself, even worthy of having self esteem, I mean, which is a crazy way to say it.
• 4:46
  Speaker A: One of our dear family friends passed away of cancer while I was on this latest trip. And I was able to see him, actually, one last time before I left. And I wasn't. I didn't know that'd be the last time I would see him, but that's how it shook out. And, you know, I'm glad that we're all here together. Cancer has been, like a main character, actually, in my adult life. Like, it's been the number one killer of all my, you know, friends and family who passed on. Cancer has been, you know, the main culprit for a lot of that. And it's so. What a gift that you survived your bout with it. Tom, I'm just. Just. Yeah. So, so grateful you're here, but when I first got sober, my dad had a cancer scare, and. And I remember one of the first thoughts I had, you know, when I was getting clean was like, I. I would like to be. If. If, God forbid, he were to pass away. I want to. I don't want to be loaded at his funeral. I want to be able to suit up and show up, and I don't want I don't want to be another problem that the family has to deal with in the course of, you know, grieving a loss. And so, yeah, now we've got, you know, our friend Klaus that we're. We're getting together. We're doing Memorial on Sunday. I have to. I have to capture on camera. I've got to, like, shoot the video and then kind of, like, edit it later for posterity. But without the work that I do on myself and, you know, the work I do with fellowship and the work I do with you guys, I don't. I think I would want to run away from an event like that if.
• 6:44
  Speaker C: If one of my parents were to die. I. I don't want to be loaded. I don't want to be. I don't want to be on drugs. I don't know when they're going to die. So I might as well go ahead and get sober now and just stay that way, you know, and. And then. Then I'm guaranteed that I'll be sober when they die, which is what you're doing. It's like, yeah.
• 7:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's basically what I did. Yeah. Well, just. God, like. Because I just think about. I don't know why. I don't know why it came to me. I think I was just imagining a funeral, and I was just like. Do you know how, like, ghastly that would be beyond just the initial grief? If I was, you know, passing out from OxyContin during the, you know, services? I just, like. I don't know.
• 7:28
  Speaker C: I just.
• 7:29
  Speaker B: I had this.
• 7:29
  Speaker A: I. This morbid thought about, like, just, like, imagine, like, my family having to just, like, carry me out on a gurney, you know, when they. You know, when they've already got somebody on a gurney.
• 7:38
  Speaker B: So, anyway, no times in our addiction do we. Did we do things like that, Patrick? I mean, you know, I'm sure what you're saying is resonating. It resonates with me and anybody else that's in recovery is that, you know, instead of being of value to our family at the time of need and crisis, we threw gasoline on the fire. We made things worse. Yeah.
• 8:05
  Speaker C: You become drained on them.
• 8:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's a. You know, an unfortunate and consequence of our addiction is we were far from bringing the best of ourselves to those situations. That's the great news about emotional sobriety, isn't it? That now our goal is to always try to lead with the best in us. Right? To have the best possible attitude that we can have towards life, towards our relationship, towards death, towards family. Crises, you know, towards whatever issue that we're confronting, whatever existential, you know, issue is. Is being put in before us.
• 8:46
  Speaker C: I could be wrong about anything. It's like, there is so much freedom in that. And we're talking about confidence, but some of that confidence is I'm not. I won't be destroyed if I. If I'm wrong about this emotional sobriety. We don't live our life in episodes. So basically it's an ongoing thing. So there is no point where I'm wrong. It's like. It's like, okay, well, I'm wrong about that. I need to do that. So we just keep adjusting and we keep growing.
• 9:15
  Speaker A: Michael, who I work for, he was on the podcast a while back. He said something to me that was so liberatory. And we're talking about writing, but I think it applies to. What we're talking about is it doesn't even matter if it's good. It just has to be true. You know, just like, you don't. You don't have to be. You don't even have to be good at what you're doing. You know, this apply. Applies to perfectionism, I suppose we talk about perfectionism a lot. You know, just be faithful in the application of yourself, and you're going to make mistakes, and it's not going to be perfect. It might not even be good. But it's. What's more important is this the consistent application of yourself?
• 9:59
  Speaker C: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, you're not going to be able to write if, if, if, if, if you have to write everything. It's got to be good. I mean, it's. It's like, it's.
• 10:09
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, when I heard that, I was just like, oh, thank God. Oh, I just.
• 10:13
  Speaker C: No, I wrote a thing yesterday that it was brand new. A lot of times I'm using some older ones that I didn't want to put them out on email. But I wrote it, and I loved the idea when I had it. You know. You know how we do with our ideas. I loved it, loved it, loved it. And then when I finally wrote it, I thought, well, that sucks. It's like. And I didn't have. Usually one of my readers, I usually have them tell me. I always have a reader that says, that doesn't suck. And that's really the only thing I ask. And it's like. But I didn't have that. So I did that for myself and I sent it out, and I've already gotten lots and lots of responses. And it's like, so Do I still think it's the best thing, really great thing I've done? Not necessarily, but it communicated something. See, it's, you know, I'm not. I'm not right. I need to not write sometimes. I do. I need to not write to wow people. I need to write to convey information and thoughts and ideas that I have.
• 11:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: And then perhaps in the conveyance, you will wow some people, but that will be, you know, a kind of a byproduct, you know, rather than the intended result.
• 11:21
  Speaker C: You're a writer, Allen Writer. We also, at times, however this works, this writing thing, we will frequently write something that will wow us. You know, we don't know where it came from, but it's like, you know, I always say there's those moments when I am writing better than I know how to write, you know, and it's like those things happen.
• 11:42
  Speaker A: Those are beautiful times. This is the passage from June 24 to move an emotion, move a muscle Heard around the rooms, Action brings about healing in a way that reading, talking, thinking and promising cannot. Sticking to our bottom lines one day at a time turns hope into confidence. Study and meditation, counseling or regular check ins with a sponsor make it possible for healthy patterns to replace bad habits. By making a list and checking it twice in steps four through nine, we alter how we feel about ourselves in the world. If we feel nervous, let's get involved in service. That's the action of step 12. Doing can free our minds from nagging insecurity or uncertainty. We can be immobilized by a seemingly overwhelming to do list. A friend may say, stop ruminating on the whole list and just do one thing on the list. We move a muscle and it diffuses the catatonic state of our feelings. Exercise or travel can help to heal us. It doesn't solve our problems, but moving muscles relieves the tension, turning an unworkable situation into a manageable one. Doing can also be avoiding. Just ask our friends from Online Gaming Anonymous In 2011, 72% of American citizens between 6 and 44 years played video games. Extreme gamers, People who play more than 50 hours per week make up 4% of users. Extreme gamers could build 48 Empire State Buildings a week if they were all engineering. Instead of gaming 8 to 12 year old boys game 16 hours a week, girls played 10 hours a week. After the age of 13, boys increased game time while girls decreased their gaming hours per week. Is this a serious trend? One Farmville player shook her baby to death for interrupting her game. An Ohio teen shot his Parents for taking away Halo and a Korean child starved while the parents raised a virtual child in an Internet cafe. There aren't right and wrong hobbies and activities. We get enthusiastic about what we do too. No problem. The key for addicts is to check in about how we are doing and how it is making us feel. The clues will be oblivious to us if we are getting out of hand. Doing is a great cure for ruminating. However, avoiding feelings that need to be faced keeps me sick. Do I keep a balance? Who do I check in with for a second opinion?
• 14:07
  Speaker C: Wow.
• 14:08
  Speaker A: Gamers could build 48 Empire State Buildings a week if they were all engineering instead of gaming. You know, that's. That. That brings to mind we all talk about how if we could apply ourselves in our sobriety in the same way we applied ourselves to the satisfying of our diseases. Mandates. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because that was some like Ethan Hunt and Mission Impossible level scheming that we were doing to get our fix on. And I think, yeah, in the sense the work of recovery is about like kind of harnessing that. That power that led us to, you know, staying loaded but in the service of worthwhile pursuits.
• 14:46
  Speaker B: Right.
• 14:46
  Speaker C: Well, and I just need to say too, because this is my personal growth and experience with what you just read from Joe's thing. It's like that. It's. You know, alcohol, drugs are not my only addiction. That's. I'm not that. That's not the only place my addictiveness can. Can get me in trouble. It might get me in trouble for that reason. And this validates this for me. Just for me. I'm not talking about other people. I know maybe you tell me if I don't need to be proud of this, but I feel proud. It's 2026. I have played. I have never played a game on my telephone or my computer ever. And the reason I don't is because I would probably kill a baby. You know, it's like, like. I mean, it's like I don't dream, but it's like. It's like I. I just really understand how addictive I can be and how. And how that. That thing is that and. And how it works and it works with the computer, which is like. Okay, well I. Okay, I'm just going to do this one. And it's just like alcohol. I want to do it one, one more game. I'm just gonna do it again. Okay, one, one more. You know, and I'm drunk, so I'm using y' all as my support group. Group. I Do I have not. And I have no plans to play games on these machines.
• 16:08
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think that's for the best. We can make anything into an addiction.
• 16:14
  Speaker C: I can.
• 16:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can, too. So, Alan, you have a big presentation later. You've been preparing for it. What can you tell us? It's gotta have to do with emotional sobriety, right?
• 16:26
  Speaker B: Well, yes, that occupies my life nowadays. That's. So I've been approached when Trey Anastasia, the guitar player for Fish, wanted to start a program with Melanie that. They came to me and they said, you know, we really want to integrate emotional sobriety into our core curriculum. So they did two things. They have a whole curriculum based on emotional sobriety, and one, mindfulness, a whole approach to mindfulness relapse prevention, which is a nice combination. I think that they've really found a cool formula. So it's not a treatment program. Think of it more as kind of a retreat center that is really focused on helping people that are struggling in their recovery, either laying a new foundation for the recovery through learning and education, not therapy, or people that have been in recovery and they just want to kind of refresh and renew or introduce themselves to emotional sobriety.
• 17:36
  Speaker C: And it's literally a retreat center. The place where. Where you can retreat or we can retreat.
• 17:43
  Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly, Tom. And what. What they. When they. You're. When you go into the program, they don't admit you like a patient. They register you like a guest. You become a guest in their program, not a patent in their program. And so it's a whole different model of helping people. Right. It's not based on pathology. It's based on speaking to the best in people and trying to wake up their sincerity right for themselves. So it's a wonderful program. I've been involved in the program, not on a financial basis, just more on a supportive basis. I wanted to help them develop that curriculum and stuff like that, which I did. And I lecture there a couple times a year, you know, and I enjoy it very much. So they're deciding to do a. They want to get the word out more about the program. So they're doing this big continuing education product through tpn, which is something, Tom, that someday you and I, I think we can, you know, come together and present a program to them. It's a really cool organization. So we put the thing together and we decided we'd do two parts on emotional sobriety. One, introduction to emotional sobriety, which I did two weeks ago from 12. Three. And today is going to be Emotional Sobriety. And relationships. And I'm really developing some new material and some new ways of thinking about this and. And talking about it. That's how I keep myself fresh in all this stuff. It's. You know, every talk I. I do, I try to bring in at least two or three or more concepts that relate to emotional sobriety that I haven't explored yet, which is what keeps us so fresh. For me, it's like, I just love it. You know, Tom and I talk oftentimes about the kind of awe that this creates in terms of our curiosity and. And excitement about. Boy, you know, there's so much here to.
• 19:48
  Speaker C: I started talking about yesterday. Alan is referring to you and I. It's like. And. And it's not an exaggeration at all to say we don't get burnout because we stay fascinated. You know, I mean, right. Right now. Right now, I'm working on some stuff where I basically. I realized that some of the stuff I've always taught. It's been forever that I ever challenged any of my own thinking. You know, maybe I'm wrong about. About this, or maybe I could. Maybe this doesn't have to be the only way. Maybe I can do it in this way. And it's like, it just keeps my mind engaged.
• 20:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. Which is. I think what's great about this is we can be wrong. Like you said, Tom, it's all right. I mean, let's get it.
• 20:35
  Speaker C: If somebody can stop ourselves going farther because we think we're right, it's like, yeah, it's not about being wrong. Thinking you're right is kind of dangerous. Yeah.
• 20:45
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:46
  Speaker B: As soon as you think you got it, you're in trouble. Right. I mean, it's that kind of thing. I mean, we're getting it. I don't know if I got it, but I'm getting it all the time. So today I'm going to be focusing on emotional sobriety and relationships and kind of, you know, talking about the foundation that I laid a couple weeks ago and how we apply that to emotional sobriety in relationships. And that's really where, you know, the importance of this is how we learn to live and love differently is the way I'm talking about it now. We are learning to live and love differently. And that takes a lot of consciousness. To develop a new consciousness is to really, as Tom is saying, is to look at the limitations of our thoughts and how. Where I think I'm seeing things one way I realize it's just I'm seeing things based on my level of maturity. Right now. And as I've matured, my God, like just this thing about, like life is not about I'm okay if. I mean, I can't tell you what a revelation that was to me, that simple concept of thinking that I can be okay, even if that just that shift in consciousness meant so much. And then you apply it to a relationship that I'm okay, even if things in this relationship don't go the way that I want them to. Is that my being okay depends how I'm dealing with what's being put in front of me, not with what's being put in front of me. And that has taken a lot of work to get to the point of seeing that as my new reality today. Right. As what I see as the challenge I have in my life on a daily basis. And whether it's be, you know, I'm a father at 74 and raising an 8 and a 13 year old. And that comes with a lot of joys and a lot of challenges and.
• 22:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, you're playing on hard mode.
• 22:52
  Speaker B: I'm.
• 22:52
  Speaker C: I'm.
• 22:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. I've got. I raised it up to the difficult level. Right. Of the game and, and you know, but, but that's what life is. You know, it's interesting. I was approached by a group of men in New Mexico that in September next year, they're doing this week long thing where they get together. And these are men that had been initiated by Father Richard Rohr into life. Wow. And so I went through the initiation and Herb Kagan and I were trained to be, to be able to take people through these initiations. And they reached out to me and they wanted me to become. To go back and be a teaching elder for the week. Her status. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to grow beard. Yeah. I was gonna say it's very biblical and a big staff that I can walk out to the thing with. But it's, you know, what an honor to do that, first of all. Right. To be asked to do that and to bring back. And you know why they did that? Because of the emotional sobriety. These men realized that this emotional sobriety, whether they're in recovery or not, holds a key for them to find a way to show up in life and make sense of this crazy world we live in and how to be a part of it in a way where we don't lose ourselves.
• 24:11
  Speaker C: Well, another way to say what you just said, Ellen, is, is it's a doorway into recovery. You don't have to be an Alcoholic or a drug addict to get in. It's like, you know, because I, I really used. I used to say our way of
• 24:27
  Speaker B: life applies to everyone. And I think he really.
• 24:31
  Speaker C: I used to say. I used to say, what do people do who are drunks? You know, how do they learn anything? Because, because all those years is like that. I mean, everything about what I. How I screwed things up was how I. How I got better. And it's like. And, And. And then. And I mean, a bill, that kind of stuff. But, like, you know, I consider you. You're the one that introduced me to, to emotional sobriety. And it's like, it's, It's. Well, I used to say we need the big A, which is just, you know, it's not Alcoholics Anonymous, it's just the big A. So all of us can come in and it's like, that's what it is. And I love the fact that, that. That people are. People recognize that.
• 25:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. It's cool. It's really cool. So one of the things I'm going to be really incorporating today, Patrick, that I've. That I've talked about, but I want to emphasize it a lot more because I do think it's very important, is a lot of our problems in life occur when we cooperate at the expense of our integrity. That comes in. Unfortunately, that is the norm out there, is you are encouraged. I was encouraged. You were encouraged. All of us are encouraged to give ourselves up for the sake of cooperation. And it creates a serious problem. A serious problem. So I'm going to be talking a lot about that today. And where it creates a real problem in families is what I see is that when kids are, quote, having trouble, they're often manifesting exactly what their parents have taught them to do.
• 26:18
  Speaker A: I. I could stand to benefit, I think, from your talk, because, yeah, I struggle with going along to get along sometimes and learning how to be adversarial in a productive way, I think is a real benefit.
• 26:32
  Speaker B: Well, I think some people are afraid of it, and I'm glad you said it that way, because it's not about. See, you don't have to. To stand up for yourself. You don't have to stand against anyone. Standing for yourself is not the same as standing against somebody else. And that's one of the reasons why people are afraid to do it, is they think, because they don't have that. That that ability developed of staying in between giving yourself up and being in an adversarial relationship.
• 27:03
  Speaker C: Our culture teaches us we're you got to fight. There's always going to be a fight. And it's black or white, you got it right or wrong, good or bad. And, and that's, and I also want to just add in my experience, sometimes those kids that get themselves trouble are the ones who are not going according to those rules. It's like they're the ones that basically have such a, such a value system that, that they do not go with well.
• 27:29
  Speaker B: They're trying to bring their integrity into this and their integrity is getting squashed.
• 27:35
  Speaker C: Yep, yep.
• 27:36
  Speaker B: You know, they're, they're, they're fighting to be seen, they're fighting to be heard. And that's the other thing I wanted to talk about today. Being seen is not the same as wanting to be validated. See, I think that we've corrupted ourselves around this thinking I need your validation to be okay, I don't need that. If, in fact, if you think about that, if I don't have any self esteem, I don't want to be seen because I don't want you to see who I am because I don't think you're going to love me. So in order to want to be seen, you have to have a certain sense of yourself where you feel some self esteem. And so that's the other confusion we have. We confuse things like I want to be seen with, I want validation. Right. And thinking that we need that validation to be all right and that in relationships creates so much of a challenge. I love being seen by my partner and sometimes I want to be validated. And what I'm really asking for is to be, just to be seen.
• 28:42
  Speaker C: Well, the other thing, it goes, it goes the same thing as with video games. It's like we're, you could, if you can interact with this stuff and not be addicted. It's one thing, it's like the idea, I mean, we, I mean, I think any one, the three of us have said multiple times when we're talking to each other and we say thank you. That's very validating.
• 28:59
  Speaker B: You.
• 29:00
  Speaker C: You know, it's like, because it does feel good to do that, but, but the problem is when it crosses that line and if I don't get Alice validation, then, then I'm, I'm in withdrawal. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in trouble. You know, it's like, yeah, just, just,
• 29:16
  Speaker A: just take a sip of validation every now and then. Don't get drunk on it.
• 29:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, you take a big sip on your own validation. It's great to be Able to stand back and see. We confuse that too. If I validate myself, does it mean I'm arrogant? No. See, we fuse that.
• 29:34
  Speaker C: That's definitely what we're taught, though, you know?
• 29:37
  Speaker B: My God. So if I say, God, I feel good about that. What's wrong with you? You know, Are you arrogant? No. Can I feel good about something I'm doing? I remember I. I felt. I was happy that. That my first book, 12 Stupid Things, crossed the 50,000 copies sold, and I put it on my Facebook, and you wouldn't believe the criticism I got. Boy, that's arrogant. Oh, my God. And I wrote in response to all these people, I said, God, you guys, you make it sound like just because I feel good about something, it's wrong. I'm glad 50,000 people have read that and are finding a value. I feel seen. I'm not doing that to get validated. I was validated the minute I read. Wrote the book.
• 30:23
  Speaker C: Right.
• 30:23
  Speaker B: That was my validation. When I wrote that and put it down, I was done with that part of it. And the fact that it means something to other people is something that's wonderful for me.
• 30:34
  Speaker C: Well, that's what I've. These people, these people who are criticizing you, I bet you they all have jobs and, you know, they don't consider the fact that one of our jobs is to sell our books. It's like. It's like that's just. That's a job. It's like. It's like, how dare you.
• 30:51
  Speaker B: Let me. You and I know we don't promote ourselves that much. I mean, we're not out there banging our drums like some people are. I mean, not. And I'm not criticizing.
• 31:00
  Speaker C: No. I mean, part of it is I'm not. I'm not very good at that. I know some people that. My friend Janice Sanfield is somebody who. And I think you may know her. It's like she's a musician and a speaker, and I mean. I mean, that total extrovert. She doesn't come off. She's not Zig Ziggler. She doesn't do that stuff. You people just get around her and talk to her, and they want what she has, you know, so. So I think. I think that's what. I think. I see that part in YouTube. That's what people. People want to know, okay, where can I get more paper?
• 31:34
  Speaker B: To a paper mill?
• 31:37
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And you go, like. Like, you know, but the idea, when people hear you, they say, I want more of that. So where is more of that? Oh, well, these books have more.
• 31:46
  Speaker B: And that's back to principle that I really embraced when I came into program. I like the idea of attraction rather than promotion.
• 31:53
  Speaker C: Absolutely.
• 31:53
  Speaker B: I like the idea of throwing ideas out and seeing if they stick and if they're a value to people. Wonderful. I'm glad for that. But anyway, so I'm excited today. There's going to be 800 people at the. At the workshop today, right? 800 people have registered for it. 800 people registered for the first one. We'll probably have more than 800 today. By time. It. It goes off in about an hour and a half or so, so it's exciting. I just. I love talking. And, you know, it's so funny because many people in the workshop last time, and this is the other thing they said, my God, this is the first workshop I've really been interested in paying attention to because a lot of those continuing education things are like, okay, I'm getting my hours. I'm getting my hours.
• 32:37
  Speaker C: I'm getting my hours.
• 32:39
  Speaker B: Let's thank James Redfern for the. For the emotional sobriety nutshell wisdom. Everybody. Check out James's poetry collection. I think it's available on Amazon. He's a brilliant, brilliant poet. And, James, thank you for contributing that today to our podcast.
• 32:56
  Speaker C: Absolutely. Sam.