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How to Show Up for a Friend Going Through a Divorce with Oona Metz · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:00
  Alex Alexander: Hello, hello! Welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander, and each week we explore what's working and what's not in our friendships, community, and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what's really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real-life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections together.
• 0:44
  Alex Alexander: We're reimagining the rules of friendship.
• 0:57
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Today, we're talking about showing up for someone you care about, when they are going through a divorce, and maybe you're like Alex, I don't need this episode right now. None of my close friends are going through a divorce, and I would tell you it doesn't have to be one of your closest friends. I think we all can be better at showing up for the people in our broader community, when it comes to divorce, divorce is one of those life moments where everyone has an opinion, a reaction, a face that they make when they are told, and almost none of it is actually helpful. So, what is helpful, knowing how to show up, knowing what to say, and honestly, I think sometimes the most important thing you can learn is what not to say, and understanding that the person that you love or care about, or the person in your broader community, is going to need different things from you at different points in this process. Divorce is a long game, and if you're here to show up for somebody, even in the small ways, even if it's your coworker in passing, knowing the stages of grief when it comes to divorce, that just makes you a better community member, a better coworker, a better close friend, a better neighbor. So that's what we're digging into today. My guest today is Oona Metz. She is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker (LICSW) and Certified Group Psychotherapist with 30 years of experience supporting women through some of life's hardest transitions, she also just wrote the book on divorce. Literally, it's called Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, and it came out in January 2026 If you have a friend going through divorce, buy them a copy. If you are going through a divorce, buy yourself a copy. Seriously, this book is essential in this conversation. Oona and I talk about the five phases of divorce, grief, and what your friend might need from you in each one. We talk about the shame and the stigma that still surrounds divorce, and how the words you choose in that very first conversation matter more than you think. We talk about building a divorce support team, and why trying to be everything for your friend is actually setting you both up for failure. And finally, we talk about what it really means to be the kind of friend who shows up for the hard stuff. This is the kind of episode that I totally understand. If you're like, oh, I'll just remember that exists and come back to it someday if I need it. But honestly, we are all interacting with people in our broader community who are going through divorces, so all of us, we need to dive in.
• 3:58
  Alex Alexander: Hi, Oona. Thank you so much for being here today to talk all things divorce.
• 4:05
  Oona Metz: So, thank you so much for having me. I've really been looking forward to our conversation.
• 4:10
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Well, I have been really looking forward to our conversation. You know, I get very, very excited, as odd as this is to say, sometimes about like the more difficult conversations because I feel like this is some of the stuff that we're just not even talking about, how important this is, how hard it is to show up for our friends when they're navigating divorce.
• 4:33
  Oona Metz: Absolutely, I mean, I, one of my passions in life is to reduce the shame and stigma about divorce, and I feel like the best way to do that is to talk about it, and so we're doing that today, and hopefully we'll see that little shame o meter take a little tick down.
• 4:52
  Alex Alexander: Well, you know, you teed that up for me perfectly, because as I was reading your book, one of the things that stood. Out to me when I was writing my little notes, and being like, huh, what are we going to talk about? Was I thought it would be interesting to ask you, as the divorced person, you've gotten divorced twice now. I would imagine that it becomes very, very apparent very quickly whether someone kind of leans into that divorce stigma or whether they can shift into this new viewpoint that you present in Unhitched and I think that says a lot about like the safety of how somebody can support you if you are somebody getting divorced we're mainly going to talk about how to be a friend yep but I would imagine like those initial the conversations when you start to tell someone they hold a lot of weight for the entire journey we're about to talk about today.
• 5:46
  Oona Metz: Yes, yes, I have a great story related to that, which is that when I first got divorced the first time, I lived in a house and we had a front yard and a backyard, and I had two brown thumbs. I did not know how to do gardening at all. I was like, I'm gonna kill these plants if I am out there by myself. So I went on the listserv, my local town listserv, and I asked if anybody you know out there could I hire them to just help me with the garden. I don't even need them to do it for me, just like show me what's a weed and what I should not be cutting down. So I hired this woman. She came over, and as soon as she arrived, I just explained to her, I said, you know, look, I just got divorced, my ex just moved out, and she was the one who took care of the garden, and I really don't know what I'm doing, and she looked at me, and she said,"Oh, congratulations, and I was so taken aback, but it was a really important moment in my journey, because usually most people would say, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, you know, strangers would say, "Oh, I'm very sorry, and look at me with kind of goopy eyes, and friends, you know, depending on where they were on the spectrum, might say, "I'm so sorry, or, "Oh my god, what happened? You know, people want to know what happened, right? So, what happened? How are you? How's your daughter, and I think those kinds of saying it in that way.
• 7:26
  Oona Metz: How are you? How's your daughter kind of implies that what you've gone through is a terrible thing, and you know, for me, I really hold both that divorce is always kind of a heartbreak and stressful, like nobody wants to go through it, like of course it's stressful and heartbreaking and terrible to go through, but it can also be an amazing opportunity for growth and healing, and for some people it can be a relief, and oftentimes it's really nuanced, like it's both, so recently I wrote an article that was called Congratulations or Condolences.
• 8:08
  Oona Metz: What should you say to somebody who's getting divorced? And I think the answer is don't make an assumption. I think the answer is listen, ask the person how they're feeling, and tune in to what their experience might be, because you know if it's in the beginning stages, they're likely to be stressed, and it's likely to be heartbreaking, whether they initiated it or not, but if they're in the final stages, they may feel a tremendous amount of relief or freedom, or like, oh my god, I can't wait to start my next chapter, or you know, so, or someplace in between, and everybody's different, but it's not just one size fits all, I guess, is what I'm trying to say here.
• 8:55
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Yeah, when I think about the friends that I've had who've gotten divorced in the past few years, you know, I think it depends, obviously, on how close you are with somebody, right? Because if I'm really close and I've been kind of a part of their, their venting or their playing out different scenarios and talking it through, then when they finally make a decision, it's very easy for me to either congratulate them or console them, basically, but the people that I don't know as closely, I think my go-to has kind of been like, wow, that's a lot. How are you doing?
• 9:30
  Oona Metz: Yes, excellent, you did the exact right thing. Okay, because it is a lot for everybody, and it's great to ask how people are doing. Yeah, yeah,
• 9:41
  Alex Alexander: yeah, and then let them
• 9:44
  Oona Metz: cue, yep, and go with that, follow from there, yeah, yeah, that's excellent.
• 9:49
  Alex Alexander: Well, sometimes I think it helps to have just like a go-to phrase for people, because in that moment. You know, when a friend maybe tells you, maybe you didn't know that they were even considering this, and you feel kind of blindsided, not in a bad way, like it's not about you, but I blindsided in that our brains process so many things at one time, and so while you are expected to react, you might be in your head being like, wow, are there any signs of this that I noticed? Have they been up? It's like you're playing 50 different things through your head in the exact moment that you are supposed to respond in a certain way.
• 10:31
  Oona Metz: That's right, that's right. Yeah,
• 10:33
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: so I find that sometimes I like to even have a go-to script.
• 10:38
  Oona Metz: Yes, and just as it's nice to have a script for the friend. It's also nice. One of the chapters of my book is about how do you tell people, and you don't have to tell if you're the person getting divorced. I do not recommend that you tell everybody the same story, and the story needs to be a true story, for sure. But you can have an elevator pitch that's as short as yes, we've been trying to make things better for a long time, and it hasn't worked, so we're going to move on, you know, which is a true story for most people, or you can have more details about what happened, or you know, with your very close friends, you can tell them the whole story if you want, but I think good to have a script prepared, because people will ask, and people oftentimes very well-meaning in a very well-meaning way.
• 11:29
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Well, and as I'm thinking through that, what I'm about to say, I had not anticipated, but when you were talking about kind of your Close Allies, Friendly Comrades, Neutral Nellies. That's what you call them, and having a script for each one, I was thinking to myself, like, oh, okay, so there's some times where I've been the close ally, and now in future circumstances I'm like, honestly, I should probably ask my friend what their script is for the neutral Nellies,
• 11:53
  Oona Metz: right? That's right,
• 11:55
  Alex Alexander: so that even though I know all the details, I can repeat their script, whatever they have determined is what they are comfortable with.
• 12:03
  Alex Alexander: When somebody asks me, because that often happens, right? It's like, well, what happened there?
• 12:10
  Alex Alexander: And I'm always trying to stay as neutral and whatever is possible, but I could just take their exact script and repeat it.
• 12:18
  Oona Metz: That's right. That's
• 12:19
  Alex Alexander: right.
• 12:21
  Oona Metz: Yes, yes, I can give you another example too of the ways in which sometimes we can make assumptions in a very well-meaning way. Yeah, and it backfires.
• 12:32
  Alex Alexander: I would love,
• 12:32
  Oona Metz: so I'll tell him myself again. So many years ago, I had a friend, and she got divorced in a pretty, it was a pretty gruesome divorce. Her husband acted very badly, and she got a divorce, and I was pretty close in, so I kind of knew the whole story. And our kids were the same age, and so sometimes I would see him around town, or at school, at drop off or pick up, or at soccer games, or whatever. I would run into him, and in the beginning, I was very mad at him about the way he had acted, and she was primarily my friends. I wasn't really friends with a couple, so when I saw him, I was quite proud of myself that I would ignore him, and I would not speak to him in public, and I was like, "Wow, I'm really supporting my friend, isn't this great for me? So one day I told her this, I said,"You know, I've been seeing your ex around town, and I just want you to know I won't speak to him, and she said, "You know what, Oona, we have kids together, and my kid is gonna pick up on that, and yeah, he was a jerk to me in the marriage, but I don't want him to be a villain in the community, like he's gonna live in this community. He's the father of my children. We are trying to co-parent together, like you don't have to be friends with him, but please don't ignore him, and it was such a good lesson for me. I was like, oh my god, here I was assuming that I was being this really good friend. Turns out not so much. So, from then on, you know, when I saw him, I would say, hi, you know, how are you? How's the kid, whatever, but not really engage any more than that, but I would just be, I wouldn't ignore him.
• 14:26
  Alex Alexander: I have a very, not very similar story, but like kind of a similar story. So some really close friends got divorced, like their children call me TiTi, right, like very, very close family friends, and when they told us about the divorce, my husband and I sat down, and we kind of like game planned how we were going to approach this, and like we wanted to be on the same page, and our immediate answer was like, well, we want this to be as. Easy for the kids as possible. We want them to know that we are neutral. I don't ever want them to feel like they are with one parent or the other. And Dad brought us into the friendship, like he knew us before they got married, but they've been married a long time. We're friends with her too, and we don't ever want the kids to feel like if they're with mom it would be weird to invite us, or we only can come to dad's side things, or whatever. And so we made a really big point in the beginning of even when we were with the kiddos, like we, I would take selfies and be like, let's send them to mom, you know, like, let's tell mom what we're doing today, let's really make it known that even though we normally see them when we're with dad in their minds, hopefully it doesn't feel that different with mom, and if they're with mom, they could always contact us, and vice versa, but we had to sit down and like really make a conscious plan, and actively, as the adults, make sure that we were proactively showing the kids that it didn't matter. Yeah,
• 16:12
  Oona Metz: yep, yep. Does she appreciate that? The mom, did she? Oh, yeah, getting those.
• 16:15
  Oona Metz: Yeah, great.
• 16:16
  Alex Alexander: Yeah,
• 16:17
  Oona Metz: good.
• 16:17
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I think so. You know, and we make a point to like call when they were with her sometimes, and invited her to do things, and just really wanted it has to do partially with her, like her and I got together and we talked about everything after they decided on the divorce, but it really, really also had to do with the kids, like everybody was kind of in agreement, right?
• 16:39
  Alex Alexander: On like, let's do whatever we can to make the kids feel as safe and secure as possible.
• 16:47
  Oona Metz: Oh, that's great.
• 16:47
  Oona Metz: Good for you.
• 16:49
  Alex Alexander: We tried, we're all stumbling through this, but that's my story on that. Yes, yes, you know, like that's a role we can play. Something when I was in your book that I noticed that overlaps so much with my work, and how I talk about friendship is this idea of kind of building your divorce team and having different roles for people, and I loved your very, very, very specific roles, because I do think that when somebody's life has such a massive upheaval, like a divorce. If you're a close friend, I think you can feel like you have to be there in all the ways,
• 17:30
  Oona Metz: Right. Right.
• 17:31
  Alex Alexander: And then you put all this pressure on yourself, and that's inevitable to fail,
• 17:36
  Oona Metz: right? Right. And we're all busy, right? Yes, all everybody's busy, everybody's got their own things that they're contending with. It's very hard when you're going through something as hard as a divorce to feel like you only have one person to rely on. So, yeah, I really encourage people to think about who their friends and family are, and who's good at what, because you know, there may be a friend that's really good at, you know, you call them in the middle of the night crying, and they're a great listener, but they're a disaster when it comes to helping you fix your printer, you know, and you might have another friend who's like, you call up and you're like, this printer is driving me crazy, can you please come over, and they're like, I'll be there in five minutes. They come over, boop, fixed, you know. And that can be so useful and so comforting. Or your friend, where you just call and you say, you know what, I just need to spend.. I don't even want to talk that much. I just want to spend time with somebody today.
• 18:37
  Oona Metz: Like, can we just.. when are you going grocery shopping? Can we go together, you know? Maybe we can grab a cup of coffee afterwards, but like, can I go on errands with you today? So I think having all kinds of different identifying all kinds of different friends with different strengths is so important, and definitely finding a friend who's gone through divorce, because it is kind of a unique life transition, and it can be really helpful to have other friends or people you know who've gone through it too.
• 19:12
  Alex Alexander: If somebody is out there wanting to find somebody who's been through divorce, do you have any, like, go-to suggestions of where you tell them to maybe go look for somebody, like, should they ask a friend of a friend, should they join a group or a forum? I mean, it could be any of these, but do you have any top suggestions?
• 19:29
  Oona Metz: I mean, I run divorce support groups, so I would always say, if you have a divorce support group in your back pocket, definitely join one. Mine are in Boston, and they're in person, so they're not accessible to everybody, but there are definitely online a lot of online, like Facebook has a lot of divorce groups. I would just say you have to be very careful with the legal part of your divorce if you're going to post anything online. Anything you post online, you have to look at it through the. Lens of how would a lawyer look at this, or how would a judge look at this. So, just be very careful, you could do it anonymously, of course. And then I would also say scratch the surface, because there are so many people out there who are divorced, and once you're going through one, you're going to find those people, and they're gonna find you, and so, like, I have people who, a lot of the referrals I get these days are from word of mouth, and there's like a little whisper network that happens with, especially with divorced women, where you know, if you tell some of your friends, you know, I'm going through this divorce. If you know anybody going through it, let me know. You know they'll come up with people for you. I recently took a trip, and on the way to the airport, the Uber driver was a woman, and I always ask if I have an Uber driver who's a woman. I always ask, do you have kids? So we got into this whole conversation, yes, she has kids. Yes, she's divorced. You know, we talked all about her divorce. And then I get to the airport, and she was by the end, she was like,'Oh, I can't wait to buy her book. And then get to the airport, I got onto the plane, and I had this big cup of coffee I hadn't drunk at all. So I handed it to the stewardess as I was getting on the plane, and I was like, "Do you have a garbage back there? Could you throw this away? And she said, "Oh, yeah, sure, no problem. And I said,"Just be careful, because there's still coffee left over.
• 21:29
  Oona Metz: I didn't want it to spill or anything. And she said, "Don't worry, the trash bag back here is a lot more reliable than my ex-husband, so I was like, oh, you're divorced, I'm sitting in 7c come see me, I have something for you. So a little while later, she comes down the aisle to 7c where I was sitting, and I said, oh, so you're divorced?
• 21:57
  Oona Metz: And she said, yeah, and I said, I just wrote this book, here's a bookmark for you, and she was like, oh yeah, she started talking to me. So, my point is, you really just need to scratch the surface, and you will find people. I think it often can feel so isolating when you're going through it, and it's so important to have a team of people that are going to support you through it, and so I think if you just begin to ask, you know, not necessarily that you're going to become friends with your Uber driver or your the stewardess on the plane, but maybe you will. Who knows,
• 22:30
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: you know, they may not become your new best friend, forever closest confidant, whatnot. But I have this whole framework where I have the world Wheel of Connection, and one of the categories is what I call defined friend, and, like, you might just have a divorce buddy, where you talk about some really intense things that are happening in your life, and that person might know a lot of things about you, but might not really be a part of other areas of your life, necessarily, but they could be what is holding you emotionally
• 23:02
  Oona Metz: absolutely
• 23:03
  Alex Alexander: through this moment of your life, and it could be your Uber driver, it could be, you know, this isn't divorce, but I have a friend who lost her husband last year, and she has found another person who lost her husband in the same way they passed in the exact same way, and the way she found that was just people knew, and like an acquaintance literally sent her a message, being like, "Hey, I know somebody whose husband passed three months before yours, same situation, would you like me to connect you on Instagram?
• 23:35
  Oona Metz: Love it, love it.
• 23:36
  Alex Alexander: They connected, they started messaging, they exchanged phone numbers, they've never met in person, but this is like somebody who really gets what she is going through, and I know that it's all grief, right?
• 23:50
  Alex Alexander: Like, divorce is grief, loss is grief. So, yeah, you never know, somebody could connect you on Instagram,
• 24:01
  Oona Metz: that's right. Could be
• 24:02
  Alex Alexander: your Uber driver.
• 24:04
  Oona Metz: Yes, that's right.
• 24:04
  Oona Metz: Absolutely,
• 24:08
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Everything that Oona and I just talked about the Whisper Network, the Uber driver, the friend who found someone on Instagram who had gone through the same thing, that is the Wheel of Connection in action, that is what happens when you stop thinking about friendships as one big category and see all the different people that are already in your orbit. Now, the Wheel of Connection is one of my core frameworks, and if you want the full breakdown, you can head to episode 100 to go listen, but if you are in the middle of a divorce right now, or you are trying to figure out how to show up for a friend who is, I also want to tell you that you should go to the show notes and check out my book, Are We Friends Yet?. It drops on June 16, so depending on when you're listening to this, you're either going to find a wait list link or a. Think to go purchase the book. The entire Wheel of Connection framework is in that book, in its most detailed state. I've never taught it as intensely as I do in that book, but more than that, this book was built for exactly this moment, the moment where you look around and you want a support system that actually fits where you are, but you have no idea how to build it, or even what you already have that you want to take forward with you. Are We Friends Yet?walks you through the whole thing, from taking stock of what's already there and what's not, which is okay. We're going to talk about how to rebuild that to understanding how to make a real game plan of small, doable actions that really start to shift your connections and your support system. I have watched this framework change 1000s of people's lives. I have endless messages and DMs and emails from people who are living completely different supported lives with people because they put the energy in to build the support system they need, and so that's why I wrote this book for the person who is rebuilding somebody who maybe is at rock bottom, who is looking around desperately wanting connection that matches this phase of life, that is who this is for. So, if so, you are somebody going through a divorce, so you have a friend going through divorce. Well, that probably is you. So be sure to head to the show notes and grab a copy now. If you're like Alex, I'm not ready to buy your book, that's okay. There are hundreds of hours of this podcast. The book is just the shortcut. It's basically like if you want to spend a couple hours at the book, instead of listening to 100 hours of the podcast, you will walk away with a whole new sense of how to build the support system you need.
• 26:53
  Alex Alexander: In the book, you talk about I'm a sucker for a framework, for a model, for a system, for something to make sense of the emotional stuff that makes no sense, and you have the five phases of divorce grief,
• 27:09
  Oona Metz: that's right.
• 27:10
  Alex Alexander: Now, I know you wrote this book for people going through divorce, supporting people through divorce, but honestly, these are the moments where I'm like every single person should read your book, Oona.
• 27:23
  Oona Metz: Oh, thank you,
• 27:23
  Alex Alexander: everybody.
• 27:23
  Alex Alexander: Because you could just be a random acquaintance and meet someone, and I think it's so helpful to have this framework of where somebody might be when you meet them, because that's going to tell you so much about maybe the state of their world at the moment,
• 27:42
  Oona Metz: right, right, right.
• 27:42
  Oona Metz: Yes,
• 27:44
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: you know, the first one is Heartbreak. Can we talk a little bit about what somebody going through the Heartbreak stage might look like?
• 27:53
  Oona Metz: Yeah, and I think it's important to keep in mind, if you're the friend, that people go through the Heartbreak stage whether they initiate the divorce or not.
• 28:02
  Alex Alexander: Yes,
• 28:03
  Oona Metz: so oftentimes people think, oh my god, you know, her husband left her in the middle of the night, and now it's terrible, and you know, poor her. But if you're the one who's initiating, and that's true, right, that's that's a Heartbreak. If you're the one who's initiating divorce, you don't do that lightly. People only do that after they have experienced heartbreak after heartbreak after heartbreak in their marriage, and even coming to that decision, especially if they have kids, but even if they don't, coming to that decision like nobody stands on the altar and says, oh, I hope one day I get divorced, right? So it's heartbreaking, and I think in that stage, you know, it's common that people are just trying to manage getting through each day. Like I say, in the Heartbreak stage, the most important thing you can do is make sure you're eating and sleeping. So you might see if you have a friend who's in that very initial stages, you might do something like bring her soup or tell her, you know, what, check in on her about her sleep, and if she's not sleeping at all, help her figure out how she can get some sleep, whether that's contacting her doctor, or you know, whatever it is, because if you can't eat and you can't sleep, then you know you're not going to be able to function very well in those beginning stages.
• 29:27
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, and in the stages where a lot of things are happening, right, you're probably navigating legal things, potentially living situation finances, like big,
• 29:39
  Oona Metz: yes, big, so much unsafe
• 29:40
  Alex Alexander: thought consuming things, where you really have to think about complex problem solving and your future and what you want. So, yeah, anything you can do to support kind of their foundation.
• 29:52
  Oona Metz: Yes, bring soup,
• 31:01
  Alex Alexander: and again, bring soup. Offer to sit with them, offer to read. Documents, if they're willing, and like, give a synopsis or point to the most important parts. There's so many things you can do in this, this phase, and you know, when you were talking about when I was reading your book, as well, about like the initiator versus the person who is being told I want a divorce, I was thinking back to friends who have gotten divorced, where they were kind of experiencing this heartbreak, which is, I think, what you were trying to say earlier, like, well, married,
• 31:37
  Oona Metz: yes, yes,
• 31:39
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: so they're doing their daily routine, but they're already kind of grieving the end of their marriage, but maybe they haven't quite figured out how to ask for the divorce yet, and depending on how close you are to them, you might know that they're in this situation, or you might not.
• 31:59
  Oona Metz: That's right, that's right.
• 32:01
  Alex Alexander: I've witnessed that for sure.
• 32:03
  Oona Metz: Yes, yes, I think also one thing never to ask your friend is if they tell you in their definitive, they say, I've, we've decided to divorce, or I'm moving out, or whatever, to say, like, are you sure, but have you tried everything, because people have tried everything, you know, unless they say, Do you have any ideas for me about other things I could try, then you can respond with your ideas, but saying, have you tried everything again?
• 32:33
  Oona Metz: It increases shame and stigma on people if you ask them that.
• 32:40
  Alex Alexander: Well, and I think this is a moment where, as the friend, you really need to think about how safe you want to be. You might have your own thoughts, but the thing is, like, this is not the moment to have your own thoughts. Keep them to yourself, send them in another direction, like,
• 32:57
  Oona Metz: yes, yes, inside voice, yeah, you inside your,
• 33:01
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: like, you may think those things, but in this moment you just need to shut that down and support your friend's decision,
• 33:09
  Oona Metz: right, and understand that there may be many, many, many things that have gone on, even if you're a close friend, many things that have gone on that you don't know about. I have a lot of women in my practice who have very close friends, and they really were hesitant to talk about how difficult their marriage was, because they didn't want to admit it to themselves until they were ready to leave, and they were worried that saying it out loud to another person would increase, even if their friend didn't encourage them to leave.
• 33:43
  Oona Metz: Just the fact of saying it out loud would make them feel like, I can't believe I'm saying all of this. I really need to leave, and they are not - they weren't quite ready
• 33:52
  Alex Alexander: yet. Yeah, I've talked about this before on the podcast. I have come to terms with the fact that I am the friend that finds out last, and there's nothing wrong with that, honestly. It's kind of a compliment, or at least I'm taking it that way, but it's because somebody knows that when, like, when they tell me it becomes very real.
• 34:10
  Oona Metz: Yes, yes.
• 34:11
  Alex Alexander: Because my immediate thing is, like, great, you made that decision. I, how can I support you in moving that forward? Right. Yep. What can I do for you? I will do a lot of things for somebody to, you know, do you need me to come pack up your house? Do you need me to help you go through things. Do you need me to change? I mean, things I've done. Do you need me to help you change all your shared, like Netflix and Amazon passwords, and figure out how to split those? Do you need me to calculate up what those bills are? Like, really weird, mundane things.
• 34:44
  Oona Metz: Yes, but that are so overwhelming. If you have to do all of them,
• 34:47
  Alex Alexander: so overwhelming
• 34:49
  Oona Metz: outsource that some of them to your friend, that's fantastic. Yeah,
• 34:54
  Alex Alexander: yeah, gone in there and like changed the address where we're, you know, sending certain bills or magazine subscriptions. It really could be that tiny of a task, but that adds up and that helps somebody, but I will do that, so most people, a lot of other friends, it's very common, like other friends will know before I know, and that's because I'm like, okay, what can I do now? I'm ready.
• 35:19
  Oona Metz: Yep, yeah, that's great.
• 35:22
  Alex Alexander: The next phase is the Rollercoaster phase, which you say is the longest phase, and one where, like, two seemingly opposite feelings can be happening simultaneously. Can we talk a little bit about showing up as a friend in this phase?
• 35:38
  Oona Metz: Absolutely, the Rollercoaster phase for the divorcing person is really when they're feeling all of the feels, so they may be really rapidly going from anger to sadness to anxiety to feelings of rejection to relief to freedom to back to anger back to sadness and I think one of the things that's really important as a friend in this if you have a friend who's in Rollercoaster is that you accept that there's going to be nuance, right?
• 36:08
  Oona Metz: Sometimes, like, I'll have women say, like, I'm so angry at my ex, I cannot believe what they did. You know, I'm so angry, and you know what, I also miss them, and so to be the friend that's able to hold both of those things, it's a really rare friend who can hold that, and you know, because you, you know, just like I went in the example I gave before, like I had so many feelings about my friend's ex-husband, and I, he had acted so badly, and I was so mad at him, you know, on her behalf, and yet she was co-parenting with him, and she couldn't stay that angry all the time, and so I needed to, like, check my own feelings and talk to somebody else about it, rather than her, so I think holding open the possibility that your friend is going to have some nuanced feelings is the best thing you can do for them, and understanding that, like, it is going to be a Rollercoaster. So, if you see your friend on a Friday and they're doing really well, and then you see them on a Monday and they look like, you know, hell, you know, not to say, like, but wait, I thought you were doing well, you know, just to accept that, like, this is how it goes, and it may be something happened, it may be something didn't happen, but the roller coaster is real, and people go through it, you know,
• 37:44
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: yeah, when I think back to some experiences of helping friends where they are in this moment, I would say, like, I kind of almost think of it as, like, in one ear, out the other, a little bit, like they tell you what they're feeling, right? They're so angry, they're so mad, and 10 minutes later they're sad, or they're happy that they're, they don't have to think of anybody else when they decide where to put their dishes, or whatever it is, you could be like, "Wait, weren't you just mad, right? And you can't do that, so it's almost like, whatever the emotion is, okay? But five minutes later, I just want to, like, almost pretend the other emotion didn't exist a little bit, like you still hold that, but you just follow along with whatever their lead is for whatever they say,
• 38:29
  Oona Metz: and know that this doesn't mean your friend is going crazy, like, no, this is normal,
• 38:33
  Alex Alexander: yeah,
• 38:34
  Oona Metz: appropriate, and it's not going to last forever,
• 38:37
  Alex Alexander: yeah, and don't you know, none of it, none of this, like, well, you said you were this, like, okay,
• 38:41
  Oona Metz: right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 38:44
  Alex Alexander: you gotta, like, you say, you gotta hold the nuance, you gotta hold the wave here, and then the other thing I was thinking about is I have a vision of a very specific friend. We went to a gathering together. She was really anxious about going to this gathering because she knew she was going to see extended family from her ex, and she hadn't had to do that yet. So, she didn't want to go alone, but she felt like she needed to go for the person they were celebrating, and so she asked if I could go, and I said, of course, and you know, we got in the car, and she was all I could put her brave face on, she really talked herself up, she was like, it's me, fine, I enjoyed these people, we were married, it's okay, it's we're good, and then we got in the room, and certain things that were said triggered her, and I didn't even know it was so triggering about it. It wasn't even anything that bad, but whatever it was was triggering to her and the relationship, and that's fine. And so, even could be one day to the next day, but yes, it could also just be
• 39:44
  Oona Metz: one hour to the
• 39:45
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: next, one hour to the
• 39:46
  Oona Metz: next, yes, yes, or one minute to the next, yeah,
• 39:50
  Alex Alexander: where you just don't know what is coming next.
• 39:54
  Oona Metz: Absolutely,
• 39:55
  Alex Alexander: so then the next phase is the Mending phase, where the emotions become a little less intense, and it's a little more focused on kind of like reflection or taking responsibility, renegotiating boundaries, and what life looks like. Can we talk about showing up as a friend in this phase?
• 40:19
  Oona Metz: Absolutely, I think the Mending phase is really when the divorcing person, instead of spending all of their energy on their unhealthy marriage or on their divorce, they are able to return to themself and really think about what it is that they need, and they may be more available to you as a friend and more able to engage in back and forth, you know, they may have a lot of needs in the heartbreak and roller coaster phase, but in Mending they may be able to be there for you too, and I think important for people not to feel like they're being left out of your important, you know, life updates, and so this may be a phase where it feels a little bit more mutual again, and maybe you're helping brainstorm what they can do to help the. Selves now, or maybe they're just doing it, or maybe you're going to yoga class together because they're realizing, boy, I need to pay attention to my body, and it's been a while, you know. So I think again, just being present and understanding that they need to take some care of themselves now again.
• 41:26
  Alex Alexander: Well, and hopefully really celebrating all the new things, right? Like,
• 41:29
  Oona Metz: yeah,
• 41:29
  Alex Alexander: some things are scary, or it's different to do them on your own, or wow, you're going back to yoga. I love that you're doing that for yourself.
• 41:39
  Oona Metz: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 41:41
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: So then the fourth phase is Letting Go, and really just kind of shedding that identity as a married person, and maybe, maybe letting go a little bit of like the resentment, and this phase, you know, when I was reading through this phase, but then also your different roles, this seems like a place where, if you are that activity partner,
• 42:05
  Oona Metz: yes, this
• 42:06
  Alex Alexander: is really a great place to step
• 42:08
  Oona Metz: in to show up, absolutely. Yes, because people are letting go of their identity, as you said, of being a married person or being part of an intact family, and really needing to figure out what their new identity is, and how do they, you know, how do they go about that kind of life right now, they're also letting go of the narrative, their spouse's, their ex's narrative about the marriage and divorce, and hopefully letting go of some resentment and anger too. So you might see them just feel lighter at this stage, but I think important to know for the friend to know that divorce lasts a very long, like the feelings of divorce last a very long time, so somebody in this phase might look like they're not thinking about the divorce at all, and that may be true, but it also may be true that it is still on their mind and that they still want to check in about it every once in a while, so just being aware that I think for friends, for outsiders, it often feels like, okay, well, you're getting divorced, okay, okay, and then all right, well, that was a couple months ago, so now let's move on to other things, and they may still be, you know, holding some feelings about it, so even though they're in the Letting Go phase,
• 43:30
  Alex Alexander: well, and when I was reading this part, I was also thinking I would think that this is where maybe the roles and the ways that you connected before really start to shift. So let's say you were couple friends,
• 43:44
  Oona Metz: yes,
• 43:45
  Alex Alexander: and in those beginning phases, you know, we're kind of in triage, we're in like, let's do the immediate things where emotions are all over, so it might be easier to just be like one on one with your friend, but then when they start letting go and going out back out in the world and adding things back into their life, suddenly you're realizing, as the friend, like, oh, some of the ways we connected before are no longer,
• 44:13
  Oona Metz: that's right,
• 44:14
  Alex Alexander: an option,
• 44:16
  Oona Metz: and I think you know, for the person who's getting divorced, one of the things in this phase is figuring out which are the things, the events, the places, the music, the food, everything from your marriage that you want to hold on to, because they're important to you, and kind of re-own them, and which are the ones that you want to let go of, right? So there may be like certain places, for instance, where you could help your friend to say, I know that your special place with your ex was, you know, whatever it was, Newport, Rhode Island. You know, how are you feeling about Newport these days? You know, are you feeling like you're going to let that go? Are you feeling like you want to re-own it? And if you're feeling like you want to re-own it, let's go re-own Newport, or whatever, wherever the place is, or
• 45:09
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: yeah, a restaurant,
• 45:11
  Oona Metz: or that band, you know, because those, I think, for each person, they have to really decide on each of those things, divorce, you're letting go of your ex-spouse, but your relationship with a lot of other things changes too,
• 45:27
  Alex Alexander: yeah, I was just thinking, you know, we could see this for some people, they might see it as sad as the friend because things are different now, but I always like to take this moment and be like, wow, I'm so excited to see the new version of our friendship, like, wow, how cool that maybe I could go with her to re-own Rhode Island, and we're gonna make this memory, and maybe that'll like open this new door for us to connect in a new way, and if nothing else, I'm just excited to get to see her and whatever she is becoming, or he that I never could have anticipated,
• 46:06
  Oona Metz: absolutely.
• 46:06
  Oona Metz: Absolutely, boy, you sound like an ideal friend. For I'm not going to say I hope all your friends get divorced, because that would be terrible, but if they do, you're a great person.
• 46:21
  Alex Alexander: I have
• 46:22
  Oona Metz: been through
• 46:23
  Alex Alexander: some intense stuff in my life, and what I find is just that, whether it is divorce, loss of a spouse, a new diagnosis, right? So much of this it has its nuances and its differences, but there is a lot of stuff that is the same.
• 46:44
  Oona Metz: Yes, which is
• 46:45
  Alex Alexander: another example, like a friend of mine, her son was in the NICU for nine months, I went and, like, lived in their house for a period of time, and when we were talking about, you were talking about, like, the Heartbreak, Rollercoaster phase, and then the Mending, where maybe they can come back to your friendship, like, I'm so happy I could be there for her, and I would never change that, but I'd be lying if I said that going there and doing that is so self-sacrificing as the friend, because nothing is about me really for the two weeks I'm there, right? She doesn't ask how I'm doing, she doesn't check in on my day, like it is about me cooking her meals, walking her dog, getting her laundry, dealing with her house, asking her how her day was in the NICU.
• 47:37
  Alex Alexander: It's quite frankly pretty emotionally exhausting.
• 47:43
  Oona Metz: Yes,
• 47:44
  Alex Alexander: and when my friend, who lost her husband last year, a different friend, when I found out he passed, I messaged her, and I was just like, do you want me to get on a plane, and she said yes, and I got on a plane that same day, and I was there again for two weeks. It's very similar.
• 48:03
  Oona Metz: It is supporting somebody in grief, or in trauma, or in crisis, yeah,
• 48:08
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: yeah, it's a lot of it has like repetitive patterns, and so that's a very sweet compliment.
• 48:15
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Thank you. But it just comes from from sitting in the hard stuff with so many people at this point that you know, I can do an episode on divorce, I can do an episode on losing a spouse, on losing a child, I've done episodes on all of these things. That's why I think they're so important. Is like, once you do it once, you can take what you learned and apply it with some nuance and some changes. Yeah,
• 48:42
  Oona Metz: presence is so important. I think we are so often, you know, think we have to fix things, and we don't have to fix things, and there's some things that aren't fixable, you know. Your friends getting divorced, that's not something you can fix.
• 48:55
  Alex Alexander: No,
• 48:56
  Oona Metz: but just going and sitting with that person, sitting in the feelings with them, is such a gift.
• 49:03
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, just being along for the ride, and the other thing I would say, like, as the friend, is that you're also on your own ride.
• 49:12
  Oona Metz: Yes,
• 49:13
  Alex Alexander: you know, so like, take care of yourself.
• 49:16
  Alex Alexander: It's different in every situation, and in divorce, like, maybe you were really close to their partner, maybe you took family vacations together, or you were neighbors and you had barbecues all the time, or you saw them at holidays, like there is a component of a loss for you too, whether you liked the person or not, you know, like maybe that person really frustrated you the entirety of their marriage, things are still different, so also like being kind to yourself and finding places to process that on like the outer circles, don't dump that on the person going through it. Find somebody else.
• 49:55
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I want to take a second, and I want to talk to the friend who is showing up, because maybe you are listening to this episode.
• 50:02
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: If you're the person going through divorce, and you're like, this is how I want people to show up for me. Maybe you have more ideas, which, by the way, if that's the case, send me a message. I would love to hear your ideas of how you wish your friend showed up for you. I will be sure to compile those and include those in future episodes and resources, but I also know we have some friends who are listening, people who really care about their people and want to show up, and if that is you, I am talking to you, because this whole episode, being the friend who shows up, I want to be totally honest and tell you it is hard, it is emotionally exhausting, it's a lot of self monitoring, it is showing up again and again for someone who at least for a little while cannot really show up back for you, and on top of that, you might also be grieving, maybe you loved spending time with this couple, maybe you genuinely really like their spouse, maybe the dynamic of your entire.
• 51:08
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Friend group is shifting, and you don't know what the new version is going to look like, and you didn't ask for this, you didn't ask for the divorce and the change. So, I'm here to tell you that there probably is a lot going on for you too. So, I want to introduce you to something, and I was kind of alluding to it here with Oona, but it's called the Ring Theory. It was developed by psychologists Susan Silk and Barry Goldman, and I will link to an article about it in the show notes, so that you can go deeper. But here's the
• 51:46
  core idea: imagine that the person in crisis, the person getting a divorce, is at the center of a circle, and then imagine rings around that person, each ring representing the people in their life, with the closest people in the inner rings and the outer rings being more distant connections. The
• 52:06
  rule is simple: comfort goes in and dumping goes out. So if you are on one of those inner rings, but you are not the person in crisis in the very center, and you are supporting your friend through divorce, you do not process your own feelings with the person in the center circle going through the crisis, you take those feelings to someone in a ring further out than you, a mutual friend, a therapist, her sister, someone who is not the person at the center. I have been this person that is like one ring out at least a dozen times in my life now, and I will
• 52:43
  tell you this: it is emotionally exhausting, right? I almost have to emotionally prepare when I know that I am going to show up for a friend in this way. I also absolutely build in a self-care routine buffer after I leave them, like if I'm going to stay with them for a week, or even if I'm just going over there for dinner, and I know it's going to be intense, I'm probably going to give myself a buffer the next day, because it does take something out of you, and that is okay, that is normal, that is what it means to really show up for someone, and I hope that in doing this right, someday, if I needed someone to show up for me, they would do the same for me. That is the goal. But here's
• 53:30
  what I also want to tell you: it is a lot of work, but there is nothing like it. Getting in there with someone during the hardest time in their life, it really does change a friendship in a way that nothing else can, that closeness, that bond, it is real, but it's going to feel hard in the moment. I'm actually working on some resources specifically for the friend who is showing up in the crisis or the major transition, because, like I mentioned, there are similarities, whether it is divorce, loss, or something else, there's a lot of patterns, a lot of things you can learn, and a lot of ways to show up at different times in your friend's journey. So be on the lookout for some resources to help you out in that.
• 54:21
  Oona Metz: Did you want to talk about Moving On? The Moving On,
• 54:23
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I of course want to talk about Moving On, because we got to complete the five phases.
• 54:29
  Oona Metz: Yes,
• 54:30
  Alex Alexander: in my mind this is like the most fun phase.
• 54:33
  Oona Metz: Yes, definitely.
• 54:35
  Alex Alexander: This is that like excitement of like you might get to meet a whole new version of your friend that you never could have anticipated.
• 54:42
  Oona Metz: Absolutely, so the Moving On phase is really when your friend is able to take all that energy that she spent on the difficult marriage, on the difficult divorce, and reinvest it in something that's new, and it's not that she forgets that she's divorced, you know, that's always going to be part of her history, but she's going to invest it in something new, and that's a great time to be a friend, and maybe you want to invest in something new too, or maybe you just want to hear about it and cheer her on.
• 55:17
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, what would you say about kind of like celebrating in this phase? Like, to me, this feels like a great phase. I'm not saying like that's like throw a party or tell this person, maybe, right,
• 55:28
  Oona Metz: yeah, yeah, like
• 55:29
  Alex Alexander: somebody has gone through so much work at this point as their friend, I feel like I'd really want to be like, wow, I'm so proud of you for just,
• 55:37
  Oona Metz: yes,
• 55:37
  Alex Alexander: getting up every day and continuing,
• 55:39
  Oona Metz: yes, yes, I think that's a great thing to do, is to tell your friend that you're proud of them, and to ask them if they want a party, and you know, if they do, that's great, and it doesn't even have to be like a "oh, my ex is gone" party, it could be like I'm having a new chapter party, right? You could help sign them up for the Fresh Starts Registry, then there's a divorce registry now, you know, just like you would help your friend with a wedding registry or a baby. Registry, how about a divorce registry? Well, that's available at Fresh Starts, you know. So, yeah, I think really being proud of them and celebrating their successes and wins is really important in this stage.
• 56:21
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Well, when you're talking about the Fresh Starts Registry, I was like, wow, I mean, what a beautiful role you could have as a friend, you know. We were talking about stigma to kind of like circle up this episode, your role at this point, especially, could be talking to other people out there about the stigma of divorce and trying to rewrite that narrative, like that's helpful to your friend.
• 56:41
  Oona Metz: Absolutely, absolutely, it
• 56:43
  Alex Alexander: might be hard for them to be vocal about it, but maybe it's easier for you because you haven't experienced it, Oona. Thank you so much for coming on and just talking about divorce and how people can better support each other through this big life change.
• 56:58
  Oona Metz: Oh, this is such a great conversation. I'm really, was really a pleasure to be here, and sounds like you're you're not only talking the talk, but you're walking the walk of being a really good friend, so we need more people out there like you.
• 57:13
  Alex Alexander: Oh, thanks, Oona. Conversation was a rich one. There are so many examples and ideas and new frameworks in this one episode. It's a lot to process all at one time, if we go back to the very beginning of the episode, what Oona said about not assuming, about not walking up to a friend and saying I'm so sorry before you even know how they're feeling. I think that is still what stands out to me as one of the most impactful things you can take away from this episode, because when we automatically default to condolences or celebration, when we actually haven't asked our friends how they are doing and how they feel, it really does set the tone for everything that is to come, and as we learned in today's episode, there are five stages of divorce grief. So, if we start off on the wrong foot, it can be really hard to show up for your friend later in the stages. The other thing I hope everybody takes away is that divorce is grief, it moves in phases, it's not linear, and the friend who understands that, the one who can hold the nuance, who doesn't say, but wait, I thought you were doing better. The one who just shows up and thought they were going to have a fun, carefree night, and realizes we're really going to get into the nitty gritty, and we have a lot of feelings today. The one who shows up to re-own Rhode Island in the Letting Go phase, that is the kind of friend who changes everything for someone going through a divorce. If you want to be that friend, or if you're going through this yourself, please go check out the show notes of this episode.
• 58:54
  Alex Alexander: I have linked Oona's book,
• 58:57
  Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, and I have also linked the Ring Theory article that I mentioned in narration, too, because I really do think it is one of the most important concepts you can understand if you're going to show up for people going through crisis.
• 59:14
  Unhitched: Both are worth your time, and if this episode hits close to home, whether you're in the middle of a divorce or you're watching someone you love go through one, know that you are not alone in trying to figure out how to do this, that's why you have all these people around you. With that, I'll see you next week.
• 59:36
  Unhitched: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you, but don't let the chat die here.
• 59:45
  Unhitched: Send me a voice message — I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at alexalex.chat. You can also find me on Instagram; my handle is @itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Now, if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend. Tell them you found it interesting, and use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye— I'll be back with a new episode next week.