Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / Why men hide their emotions and feel misunderstood | Dr. Shefali #21

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Why men hide their emotions and feel misunderstood | Dr. Shefali #21 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world needs free therapy.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Yo.
• 0:03
  Speaker 3: What's up, Benny?
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: How you doing?
• 0:04
  Speaker 3: I'm doing amazing because I loved this conversation so much.
• 0:08
  Speaker 3: I've never seen you so lit up in the podcast
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: studio thus far. You were on one.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I was.
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  Speaker 3: Dr. Shefali is one of the leading experts today on
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  Speaker 3: conscious parenting, but also on relationships and masculinity and femininity
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: and how they can live together. And we got into
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: something we love to talk about. Why do men feel
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  Speaker 3: so misunderstood today? And what are we actually getting wrong
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: about men and masculinity?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, she really offers solutions to society for both men
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  Speaker 2: and women on how we can approach this issue in
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  Speaker 2: the country that we're facing where young men are stuck
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: in their basement, not adding anything to society and then harming,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the people around them.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a beautiful conversation around masculinity. And really a
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  Speaker 3: hopeful conversation in my mind. It's really something that helps
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  Speaker 3: both men understand men, helps men understand women, helps women
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  Speaker 3: understand men. So if you are a man or a
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  Speaker 3: woman who's in a relationship with a man or a woman,
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: in any type of relationship.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: If you're human.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: This is the episode for you. Dr. Shivali is incredible.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: She has two books coming out that just came out
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  Speaker 3: this week. Hope you enjoy the show. Our guest today
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  Speaker 3: is the amazing Dr.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Shefali.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Dr.
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  Speaker 3: Shefali, welcome to Free Therapy.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: So happy to have you here.
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  Speaker 1: Of course.
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  Speaker 3: You are a clinical psychologist, but also New York Times
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  Speaker 3: bestselling author and one of the leading experts in the
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  Speaker 3: country on conscious parenting. I admire you. And I not
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: only have enjoyed your work and hearing you on stage,
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: but I've also just loved your energy and the way
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: you show up in the world and the way you
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: speak about parenting, relationships, the masculine and feminine dynamic. And
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  Speaker 3: I'm really just excited to have you here because it's
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: not often you get someone that really, really brings like
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: the energy that you have into these conversations, which I
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  Speaker 3: think is exciting. It's spicy. It livens the room in
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  Speaker 3: the conversation, which I think is what we need more
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  Speaker 3: than anything.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 3: So thank you.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so excited.
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  Speaker 3: And the timing couldn't be better because you have not one,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: but two books coming out This week.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Raising Conscious Sons and Raising Conscious Daughters.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Genius, by the way, to have two books.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you. Because. Yeah, every single person has said that.
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  Speaker 1: And I didn't write it to be given accolades. I
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: just wrote it because I felt that they are so different.
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  Speaker 1: Boys and girls are so different. And we should honor
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  Speaker 1: differences and not be intimidated by our differences. As well
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  Speaker 1: as recognize that there's overlap in being human, of course.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I think to that point that you wrote these
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  Speaker 3: two books, the conversation we really want to have today
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  Speaker 3: is diving into the men's side of things and really
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  Speaker 3: understanding what are we getting wrong about men? What are
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: we misunderstanding about men in today's society?
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  Speaker 1: As a sister, as a partner of a man, not
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: a mother of a son, but having worked with so
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  Speaker 1: many moms and dads of sons, Man, we are so
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: misunderstanding our boys and therefore our men. So the reason
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: I wrote this book, Raising Conscious Sons, is really because
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: I was noticing myself constantly being angry with men in
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: the world. Like the men out there, you know, the oligarchs,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: the technocrats, the ones who are leading our country and
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: our world. And every day I'm like, oh my God,
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  Speaker 1: he's an asshole. He's an asshole. What the fuck is
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  Speaker 1: wrong with him? And coming from India, where I was
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: molested as a child by, I mean, I say this without,
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  Speaker 1: you don't even have to have, like, oh, because it's
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: kind of the reality of most Indian women, you know.
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  Speaker 1: We grew up, like, if you walk on the road,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: when I walked on the road in India, I had, like,
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  Speaker 1: men just all over, like, bumping into me. And so
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  Speaker 1: I grew up very aware that, damn, these men are
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: fucked up. Like, what is wrong with Indian men? So
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  Speaker 1: I've so... lived with this narrative in my mind that, man,
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  Speaker 1: there's something wrong with these men. But I haven't liked
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  Speaker 1: living like that. You know, even though I've been so
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  Speaker 1: justified because I'm like, oh, yeah, you want me to
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  Speaker 1: tell you how many men I know who've, like, harmed
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  Speaker 1: so many of my friends and harmed me? Like, there's
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  Speaker 1: always a reason we women have because we do live
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  Speaker 1: in unsafety. We do live predated. And it doesn't matter
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  Speaker 1: how you look as a woman. You are just going
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  Speaker 1: to be prey. It's a matter of which man where.
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  Speaker 1: So I've never liked having this narrative that I have
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  Speaker 1: this antipathy towards men because we are one. So how
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  Speaker 1: can it be that a whole half of the species
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: is fucked up? What are we doing wrong? And so
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: when things became so bad, meaning I began saying every
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: other minute, asshole, asshole, asshole in the news, I was like, man,
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  Speaker 1: if we want to change the world, we have to
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: go backwards and go, how are we raising our boys?
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  Speaker 1: Because each of these men who I'm so freely labeling
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: was a boy once raised by a mother who I
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: love women. So if I'm loving women, what are we
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: doing wrong? And I then wanted to alchemize my helplessness
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: at what I see happening in the world into activism.
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  Speaker 1: And I decided I'm going to write. I'm not a
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  Speaker 1: mother of a boy, but I'm going to do research.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to all the men I know.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to get another 50 boys. I interviewed 50
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: boys and 50 girls for the girls book. And I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to dare to create a conscious blueprint for a
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: conscious masculinity that I can help parents deliver. Because that's
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: what we're getting wrong. We're not raising our sons with
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  Speaker 1: a blueprint for a conscious masculinity.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I love that word so much. The way you say
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: conscious masculinity. Tell me how you came to that word
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  Speaker 2: and what it means to you.
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  Speaker 1: So first I'll tell you what it's not and a
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  Speaker 1: mix of what it could be. So our boys today,
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  Speaker 1: I believe, have a crisis of masculinity, meaning they are
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  Speaker 1: being bombarded with ideas about masculinity and that are contradictory.
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  Speaker 1: And let me tell you, every woman listening to this
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  Speaker 1: will be like, yeah, we grew up like that too, right?
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  Speaker 1: To be strong, but not to, you know, so be this,
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  Speaker 1: but not. But guess what? We never have compassion to
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  Speaker 1: understand that boys and men have also grown up with
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  Speaker 1: contradictory messages. And let me just back up a little
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  Speaker 1: bit and say this. Because women talk, we women like
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: to talk. We talk a lot. You know this.
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  Speaker 2: Boys don't talk as much.
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  Speaker 1: We don't talk as much.
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  Speaker 2: We're trying. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And because we take the platform in talking, somehow our
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: voice is the loudest voice. And we're tired of being suppressed.
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  Speaker 1: So we've become even louder of the last 10 years.
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  Speaker 1: We are like out there crushing it.
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  Speaker 2: Which is amazing.
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  Speaker 1: Which is amazing. However, in that, we are drowning out
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  Speaker 1: the potential for men to speak up. And we're presuming
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  Speaker 1: that our way is the only way. And we're not
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  Speaker 1: understanding that as much as we've been wounded... Our brothers
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  Speaker 1: have been wounded too. And it's hard for us women
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  Speaker 1: to have compassion because we're always like, you're asking me
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  Speaker 1: to have compassion. But if we want to heal ourselves
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  Speaker 1: and our daughters, we must have compassion for the enemy,
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  Speaker 1: so to speak. Because the enemy, so to speak, needs
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  Speaker 1: to sit at the table. And we have to have conversation.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, this is the only way as black to white,
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  Speaker 1: man to woman, We have to. Okay, so what is
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  Speaker 1: conscious masculinity? On one hand, boys are being told through
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  Speaker 1: the manosphere, right?
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Keep going, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: That you have to be this exaggerated caricature, joke almost,
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  Speaker 1: of this 6'6, 6'6, 6-pack ab, 6 feet tall, 6-figure income.
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  Speaker 1: It's insane, okay? I love that.
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  Speaker 2: I've never heard of this.
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  Speaker 1: So Bentleys and women and the Andrew Tate version of
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: what is masculinity. So these young boys are thinking, oh,
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  Speaker 1: my God, I have to do all that to bloody
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  Speaker 1: be a man? That's impossible. But I'm going to try.
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  Speaker 1: And often they fall short and then they get angry.
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  Speaker 1: And the man is telling them, don't worry, there's a
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  Speaker 1: reason why you're falling short. It's not because of you.
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  Speaker 1: It's because of women.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so this is one side of the messaging. The
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  Speaker 1: other side of the messaging from the progressive people like
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  Speaker 1: us are telling our boys, talk about your feelings and
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  Speaker 1: express yourself and be vulnerable and But they're also being
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: told that don't do too much and don't be like
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  Speaker 1: a girl, right? Don't be too much like your sister,
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  Speaker 1: but can you be like your sister? So they're like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: I can do this. That's confusing. But I also don't
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  Speaker 1: know how to do it as well as my sister.
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  Speaker 1: So how to do it, but not do it. And
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: so on both sides, they're being slammed. And then, of course,
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  Speaker 1: be the protector and the provider and the strong one,
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  Speaker 1: but the compassionate one. So conscious masculinity, firstly, is... defying
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  Speaker 1: all boxes. Just like women don't want to have boxes,
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  Speaker 1: don't put a box on me. I'm a five-year-old boy.
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  Speaker 1: Don't tell me how to be. Let me see who
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  Speaker 1: I want to be. Can I decide? Can I choose?
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  Speaker 1: That is the blueprint of any authentic destiny. You want
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  Speaker 1: to be seen as an authentic person. I want to
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  Speaker 1: be seen as. So can you not put how a
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: girl should be or how a woman should be on
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: me before I can just decide that for myself? First thing,
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  Speaker 1: as a parent, don't put it on your kid. Like,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Leave the box out for a bit. Let the child evolve.
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  Speaker 1: The second thing in conscious masculinity is to teach them
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  Speaker 1: that they can be, for example, they can be angry.
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  Speaker 1: They can have big emotions, but there's a line beyond
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  Speaker 1: which they become manipulative, dominating, exploitative, and aggressive. So there's
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  Speaker 1: a line. Or your testosterone can make you sexual, but
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  Speaker 1: there's a line beyond which you cannot take advantage. There
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: is something called consent. There is something called mutual reciprocity.
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  Speaker 1: Just because you have desire doesn't mean you get to
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  Speaker 1: act it out. So conscious masculinity really understands that boys
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: can be physical. They can be big. They can be
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: kind of wild. They can have a lot of sexuality.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: They can have a lot of anger. All of that
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  Speaker 1: can stay healthy and it doesn't have to get toxic.
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  Speaker 1: But can you give your son that? Because boys do
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: have anger, physical, big expressions, a lot of sexuality. They
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: have testosterone. So can their testosterone, to put it simplistically,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: there are lots of hormones, but the main one, can
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: it be honored? Can he be that big boy without
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: feeling ashamed or without feeling he needs to fit into
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  Speaker 1: a box. So conscious masculinity is integrated anger, integrated sexuality.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So, okay. I love this because I think so
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: much we have as a society, there's an analogy in
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  Speaker 3: sailing called pointing positive, right? When you're on a big
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: ship and there's an iceberg ahead and you don't want
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: the ship to go towards the iceberg, you don't point
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  Speaker 3: at the iceberg.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Because if you point at the iceberg, everyone else can't
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  Speaker 3: hear you on the ship and they're going to go
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: towards where you're pointing. So you want to point positive.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: You want to point towards the place you want to go,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: not towards the problem. And I think what we've done
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: as a society is there is this thing where a
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: lot of men, some men, depending on your life, are toxic,
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: are too much of this anger, taking advantage of misogynistic.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: And as a response, society has gone, that's bad, that's bad,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: that's bad. Stop doing this, stop doing this.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: Correct. And we've thrown out masculinity, which is a beautiful thing.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: With Toxic masculinity.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And we don't know where that lies.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You're going,
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  Speaker 3: this is actually what we need. So then men are going,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: boys are going, oh, I can't be manly.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I can't be masculine.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And masculinity is such a benevolent force in our human species.
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  Speaker 1: You were designed evolutionarily to be masculine. And that doesn't
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: mean you can be feminine too. But masculinity has been
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  Speaker 1: given such a, It's been bastardized because of toxic masculinity.
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  Speaker 1: Because so many men have fucked it up for the
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: rest of you. But it's not all men. There's so many.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: It's a few toxic men at the very top that
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  Speaker 1: have kind of created a problem for all men. And
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: when all men suffer, all women suffer. So if we
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: women want to change our suffering, we have to put
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: out our hand. to our brothers. We have to heal
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the masculine.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: And there's also areas in which I'm sure all men
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: have been toxic. I have been toxic masculinity at points
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: in my life.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Without knowing, subconscious.
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  Speaker 1: I've been toxic feminine. I've been so toxic feminine.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: And that's almost like the compassion that we're talking about
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: is like first have compassion for yourself.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: I've fucked up.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yes. For sure.
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  Speaker 3: And so has everybody else. And so I can't point
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  Speaker 3: a finger and go like, well, that's bad. No, we
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: all have been a part of the problem, but we
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: can all also.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: We're all part of the system.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: But we can also all be part of the solution.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
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  Speaker 3: Where it's, okay, today, how can I show up in
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: a way that is supportive and loving and.
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  Speaker 1: And the most beautiful thing a man can do is
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: say that he's been toxically masculine.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: And if a woman has so much contempt and anger
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: for that one behavior, both sides have to be like, oh...
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: you're actually a good person.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: You made a mistake.
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  Speaker 2: I forgive you.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: And the guy who maybe feels like the woman is
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: pushing him too down because all women have been treated poorly.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: He has to be like, I understand your pain, but
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I want to also be seen in a world where
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: we're not just angry at each other.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Because there has to be a solution. Yeah.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: But it's men like you who are starting this.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Well, it was because honestly, our both our moms raised
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: us in a conscious way before the word was defined
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that way. They were It was unacceptable for them to
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: say something, objectify women. My mom, when I was 10
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: years old, I called a woman hot. She's like, no,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: women are beautiful. I objectified them because society objectified them.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: So there is a world where there are men who
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: understand it. But to Kevin's point, I have done behaviors
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: that are toxic and I have been punished for them
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: and I feel shame about them. But I am constantly
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: reminded that I'm not a bad person. And I think
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: people do those behaviors, and then they convince themselves they're bad. Yes.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And that shame carries them on and on into bad
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: relationships with women.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: They make them feel worse, and then it's a cycle.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: It's a cycle. So shame. I see boys being shamed so,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: young boys, yeah, 10, 12. by mothers who are carrying
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: the pain of their victimhood. And then they tell their boy,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: don't you dare be like this because you will not
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: grow up to be one more asshole. And I'm going
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to raise you to be a good boy. But in
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: doing that, she shames him. So now he's hiding and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: no one is talking to him about integrating his anger
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: or integrating his sexuality.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Don't you believe this is, yes, the mothers have this
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: like unique relationship to the boys. I did too. But
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: I think the absence of a father feels like the thing.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: The thing. Because after 11 or 12, the woman, the mother...
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: can not relate to that boy anymore. Just in, and again,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: women will get upset with me, but this is liberation.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Why should you continue being the most important person in
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: your son's life? You go backstage now.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: For a little bit.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: For a little bit.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Until they're 18, 19, they need you.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Wanna go talk to my mom?
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Only in puberty, because in puberty, something very unique happens
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: to each sex. And only that sex can understand it
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: based on the hormones. It doesn't mean you can't intellectually
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: try to empathize. But, you know, it's different than... So
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: a father will not understand what it means like for
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: a girl to go through a menstrual cycle, but a girl,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: a woman will understand. So for that rite of passage,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: it's a rite of passage. It's a period. It's a
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: very crucial, critical period. We need our conscious... Brothers, our uncles,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: our mentors, our cousins, our fathers. But nobody taught the father.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Nobody gave the father a right of passage.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Well, that generation got nothing.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Zero.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: So he's like, I don't even know. I can't even
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: touch it. I've been speaking to many men and I'll
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: ask them, who are now in their 40s and 50s,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: who initiated you in your puberty? And he's like, playboy, porn,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: and locker rooms.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Me. Yeah. Not because I wanted it. It was the
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: only option I had. I love my dad to death,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: but he was not the man that was there. And
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: that's OK, because his immigrants and his parents didn't speak
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of English and he was just trying to survive.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: So he got married. It's not his fault. But I
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, I am going to get made fun
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: of in the locker room. I am going to watch
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: porn without my parents watching. So I'm going to learn
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: that's how you have sex. And I'm going to start
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: talking to the girls the way I see the popular
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: boys do it because I want attention.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: And then I get fucked.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I am a nice guy who is an asshole who
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: doesn't even know what being an asshole means.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Nobody even told you don't do this and gently guided you.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: No woman said, this is what I love. And no
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: man said, this is how you show up so that
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: a woman is attracted.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: And we women, I will tell you on our side,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: because we have such righteous indignation because we think we've
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: earned this anger, which we have. Totally.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: But we don't realize how rejected you have been in
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: your life. It's not easy. We're intimidating to grow up.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: You know, we ultimately hold the power, right?
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: But we women don't realize that. Men know that women
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: hold the power. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Great point.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: That's what the manosphere has tapped into. The manosphere is
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: like these, you know, women, they think they have all
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: the power. You show them. Because men know that women
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: hold the gateway to sex. And the person who holds
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the gateway to sex holds the power at the end
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: because that's what men want more than anything is sexual connection.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Women want emotional connection. Men want sexual access and sexual,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I'm talking very glibly and broadly.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: But it is, out of human nature, it is that.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: It is. Evolutionarily, you're seeking sexual opportunity. And on an
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: evolutionary level, we are seeking emotional safety.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: So it's almost both. You know, my friend has this poem.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: He goes, For the men, right? For men understanding the
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: woman experience, female experience. He goes, imagine if there were
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: these monsters that landed on earth that were six foot eight,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: seven foot tall, two times your size, and all they
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: wanted to do, their number one goal was to fuck you.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Men. That's how we feel.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: That's how women feel.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: We feel that. And men would be terrified.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I can't even imagine what that feels like.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I would be terrified.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Run away, yeah.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Twice my size. Their number one goal was to sleep
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: with me.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: So imagine our psychology.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, look how tiny I am. I'm so scared
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Tiny I am. By the age of 12, I may
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: have been pawed, molested, touched under my pants, inside my shirt. Fuck.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: But I already survived by the age of 12 and
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I never fell apart.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: So much trauma for a young girl.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I just was so intellectually aware that this is how
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: men are. Right. And then I'm told to trust men,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: to love men, to be, right? Look what we're up against.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: So what can a man do? That's the female experience.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: What can a man do to show up for women
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: and understand women in a way that he hasn't?
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I think the most important thing a man can do
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: is look at his shadow and see how his anger
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: has been manipulative and exploitative. See his raw side that
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want anyone to see. Like go to therapy
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: to do that work, to see the darkness there and
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: to integrate it. I always tell women when they're dating men,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: don't go out with a guy who says, I have
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: no anger. Don't go out with a guy who says, oh, sex.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I never think about sex. Go out with the guy
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: who says, every day I battle with my demons of
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: anger and sex. And every day I'm watching my ego
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: around it. That man is a safe man. A safe
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: man is a man who is in touch with his shadow.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: A safe woman is a woman who's in touch with
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: her shadow. She has a shadow too. The most conscious
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: thing we can do as humans is know how unconscious
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: we are. Those who are dangerous who say that I've
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: overcome my ego or I don't live in ego or ego,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what ego is. Those are dangerous
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: people who have dissociated from their humanity, which is to
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: have a shadow.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I find that interesting because I'm kind of thinking about,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: I have never thought about this in my personal life.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Because I did say that. I have no anger when
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I was in my 20s. I have no anger. Sex
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: isn't my number one priority. And then I really think
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: that maybe that wasn't part of the truth. Because now,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: 10 years later, I have so much anger. I love
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: to have sex. And I feel more in my masculine.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And that is actually harder for me. Because it is
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: a challenging.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Place to be. More responsible. You have to be more responsible.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: It's very challenging internally.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Because you're not dissociated anymore. See, that's why I said
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: it's dissociative to say, as a man, I never get angry.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I was dissociated.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I don't have sex.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I wasn't processed.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Because you were dissociated from what it means to be
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: a healthy male.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: And the pain I was pushing away in my past
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: or my childhood.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: But a healthy male owns that the testosterone coursing through
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: your blood every day keeps you vibrant but can make
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: you very dangerous. And you have to check it. You
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: have to check it. It's the same testosterone that will
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: protect you. the woman. It's the same testosterone that will
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: jump into a burning house and save the babies. You
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: have that in you. You have that fire to protect.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: You have the fire to scale a mountain, to go
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to a new place and explore it. Testosterone is that
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: hormone of pursuit and competence and achievement, but you have
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: to keep it in check.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: This is where the.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: You know, you have testosterone and you have every right
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: to do it and no one should stop you and
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: tell women. They go extra with it, right? But a
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: responsible man owns his testosterone, owns his urges, but keeps
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: them in check. Every day, though, every day you have
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: to keep it in check.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Interesting. Right?
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: As a man, you have to keep that masculinity. It's
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: a wild energy men have. And women have been so
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: scared by it that we've shamed you so much. But
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: in shaming you, you never learn how to understand its limits.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: This does feel like this. Kevin and I have been
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: trying to define this term. What is empathetic masculinity? You
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: can say it better than I do. Say what you
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: have said.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: How do you show up as a strong, masculine, powerful,
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: connected man, but also be vulnerable and deep and empathetic
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: and compassionate to the female experience? So if we were
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: to create a different version of this that is actually
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: teaching men, this is a way to show up, right?
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: For example, I used to not be assertive because I
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: didn't want to be domineering and aggressive.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: So you gave up assertiveness.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Women were like, don't mansplain and don't do this.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: So you began shutting up.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: And you didn't even know if you were mansplaining.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: And then you lose your initiation.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: And then women started saying, no, make a decision.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Where's your leadership?
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, what the fuck is going on?
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I see this happening to men in my couple session.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Like the woman will complain that the man is not
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: listening or not being attuned or not being vulnerable. Then
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: he'll start being vulnerable. Then she'll say, why aren't you
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: being a leader and initiating dates and taking me out?
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: That's complicated. And then I tell her, you know, you're
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: really being very difficult. So here's how I would teach.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: The first thing we need to teach women and men
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: is that the inherent masculinity that is in your blood
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: is a good thing. First thing. We cannot look at
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: it as a defect. See, women look at it as
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: first be vulnerable, first be empathic, first be love, and
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: then be that. That's not the way to do it. First,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: I honor you. I honor that you actually can't be
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: vulnerable right now because actually that lack of vulnerability you
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: have is your strength that will run into the burning
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: building and get those kids out. Whereas me, I just
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: be fun.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Your ability to hold it all together.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Hold it all together.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Your ability to hold our family.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And to take us off the sinking ship. That is
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: actually coming from the same hormone That makes you also
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: less vulnerable, right? Thank goodness you're not crying all the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: time because I'm crying all the time. Thank goodness you
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: can pick up my kid and take him to the
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: hospital because here I am. Now, this doesn't mean I'm
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: weak because I'm crying either.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: No, that's the most beautiful thing.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Most beautiful thing. So we as women want to be
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: honored for our femininity first, right? I don't want you
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: to tell me have a boundary before you first honor
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: that I'm compassionate. In the same way, I need to
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: give you honor for your masculinity. And we're talking in
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: broad strokes right now, right? So if I honor... that
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you as my man really have to learn to be
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: vulnerable and tap into your softness, I won't shame you
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: for it. I'll teach you. I'll say, come, let me
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: show you how to do it. And then you'll feel
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: safe and go, oh, I can do it. But it's
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: not my main thing to do. Like, actually, my switch
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: is more to be just like cutthroat, compartmentalized, black and white.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: That's how I am. You know, the female brain has
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: more interconnectivity between the left hemisphere and right. which is
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: why she's better able to talk about her feelings. Males
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: have a compartment. That's why you're so compartmentalized, right? And
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: women go, what? You just moved on? You just married
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: somebody else or you just, right? Women will be still
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: crying and wiping our tears, but you've moved on. It's
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: not because you're an asshole. It's how you're wired. So
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: if I can honor your wiring and teach you how
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to be in your feminine, just in the same way
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: you can honor my wiring and teach me how to
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: be in my masculine, we will have less problems. But
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: we've learned to be so shaming and so dismissive of
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: men because we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: that we only want to be with you if you're
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: able to be in your feminine. And men need to
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: be taught to be in their feminine. You're not safe
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: to be in your feminine. You never learned that.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: And we need to allow women to be in their
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: feminine and hold that space for them. I think if
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: I were to talk to all men for a second,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: I grew up where crying meant Yes.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: What's wrong?
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: Like, like crying was always met with something's wrong and no, no,
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: it's okay. Stop crying. And that was the response. Crying
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: is for the feminine is a beautiful expression.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Regulation.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: It is regulation.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Because we don't punch a wall. We just go inside.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: That's our way to regulate. But in the same way,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: your 14 year old son, who's like, mom, I want
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: to just punch a wall. Understand he's not a bad kid.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: He doesn't know what to do with this anger. because
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: mothers want to stop that anger. And I teach them
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: anger in itself is not a bad thing. Teach him
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: to channel it. Let him go into his room, make
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: a room full of mattresses, and especially from 12 to 19,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: where he has all this testosterone, and let him just
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: punch the pillow. You're thinking it's punching a woman. It's not.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Teaching him to get it out in a healthy way
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: teaches him to integrate it so he doesn't punch a
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: woman outside. But if he never knows what to do
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: with that anger and bottles it down, he starts drinking,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: he starts smoking pot, he starts dissociating, then it'll come
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: out somewhere else. We have to know the limits of
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: our hormones. So when a woman cries and you begin
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: telling me, don't cry so much, okay?
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: What's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? Don't cry.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get so frustrated with you, right? I'll
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: go eat something. That's what women do. We're like, let
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: me go eat something then. Now, in the same way,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: your testosterone is making you want to punch a wall
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: when you're 14. I don't want you to punch the wall.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: That's correct. But what do you do with that anger?
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: You have to see its limits to then go, oh,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do that again. I don't want
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: to hurt anyone. I don't want to punch a wall.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: But I have to first see what's coming up. We
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: never allow that testosterone to come up. And therefore, you're
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: scared of it. I'm scared of it. We're all scared
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: of it. But we can't be scared of the shadow.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: We have to see the shadow for what it is.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: So when we lived in hunter-gatherer tribes and we were
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: going hunting for food, you, meaning the males, took out
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: your anger at the beast, at nature, at you were
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: like running. Which was healthy. First you were running every
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: day for like 11 miles. How do I know this?
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Because I went to visit one of the last hunter-gatherer
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: tribes in the world and they told us if you
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: want to go on a hunt with the men, you
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: should be prepared to run like 11 miles because they
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: run 11 miles a day.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Getting their testosterone out.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Getting their testosterone out. You understand? Then they smoke some
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: ganja weed.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Sounds great.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: And now they're chill, then they eat some meat and
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: they go to bed, have some sex, go to bed.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: So the testosterone is getting expression. But in this modern world,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: this masculine energy is getting more and more stifled. Now
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: in front of a video game where you're simulating running
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: after a beast, but you're never running. And it's only
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: your forefinger and your thumb.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: The physical body is not moving.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: That testosterone, imagine. So then that 21-year-old comes out of
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: the basement with an AK-47 that he borrowed from his
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: father and blows up a school because he's so dissociated
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: from his own body. The most harm we're doing to
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: our boys is... not allowing them to use their body
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: in the way the body should have been used. Go
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: build a house, run after something, sweat every day. If
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: your boy is not sweating like three hours a day
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: at the gym or outside, he will become a menace
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: to himself or someone else.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Scott Galloway, who wrote this notes on being a man.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: He said, the most dangerous person in the world is
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: a lonely, young, broke male.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: And sitting, who's just sitting.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Video games, crypto. Yes.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Gambling.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Gambling.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Who's only intellectual.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And parents are like, oh, he's different. He's going to
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: do something. No, no, no. And I blame, the parents
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: are responsible. Yeah.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: But the parent doesn't know that a boy sitting, a
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: boy still.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Parents don't know?
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: If my son is.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: Or you don't feel like you have control.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: If my son is 23 years old and he's playing
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: video games for 12 hours in the attic, in the basement.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: You think the parent doesn't know it's a little fucking weird?
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: But the 23-year-old was once a 12-year-old.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I see what you're saying.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: And it began so slowly. And he would get angry
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: every time the mother took the game away. I'm giving
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: you just a story. The mother took the game away.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: He lost his shit.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: She got scared. The father may not be around. Oh,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: she's a single mother. She's like, okay, take it again.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Take it again, and before she knew it, he's now
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: completely addicted. So in Japan, over a million and a
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: half young men don't leave their rooms. They're called hakikomoris.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: It's diagnosed. And the government has to send women to
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: get them out. They will not leave their room. They
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: are completely isolated. But they began as a nine-year-old boy
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: with a mother who was too scared. You see? The
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: parent is not evil. The parent doesn't know.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think the parent's evil.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: The parent doesn't know. And the parent is scared. And
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: boys are, the teenager is scary.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: I think it's also important because I played video games
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: as a kid, but that didn't become me. So what
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: was the difference?
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: So you were playing video games, but you're still one
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: of the most connected people I know. So somewhere, if
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you look back, you were not left alone. There was
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: physical touch, physical space. You were moving. You were out there.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: You were connected.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: It wasn't that my mom took away my video game.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: No, you don't have to take it away. That's the key.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: She tried. And I pushed back harder and I would
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: sneak it in somewhere and I'd wake up late and
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: I would... It was that I got something else that
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: was more exciting to me than a video game.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's what I teach in my book because
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: parents get so scared. How do I detox my son now?
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I've freaking created an addict. But I say, don't worry.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Don't take anything away. Join him there. Bring the video
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: game out so it's in front of everybody and give
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: him that physical connection. Don't leave him alone. Don't leave
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: him alone in the basement for hours on end. He
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: must have physical connection and he must move his body.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: So I don't know whether you played sports or you
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: went outside. You had friends. So if you had friends
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: in a community, that is the antidote. Many boys play
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: video games and they don't become addicts, you know, or
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: they don't become aggressive.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: So it's really connection is the missing piece. We as
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: parents cannot get scared of connecting with boys who seem disconnected. See,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: the boy in his hoodie is saying, I don't know,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I don't care, and just shrugging his shoulders. We parents
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: take that as a sign that he doesn't want to
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: be connected. And I tell parents, no, he wants to connect.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Boys want to connect. Men want to connect. All the
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: men in my life are deeply emotional, connected human beings.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: They're beautiful men. I mean, and they're so masculine and
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: they want to be masculine. They don't want to be
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: told to be like me. So how can we allow
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: parents to realize that that masculine boy who is saying,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I'm okay, doesn't want to be left alone. Just because
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: he's saying, I'm okay, don't leave him alone. He needs
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: to be connected to, he needs physical touch so much.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: And men need direction as to what, And how they
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: should show up as in the world.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: You had this amazing line when I saw you a
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: couple months ago at Summit at Sea. You said, Yes.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I don't mean to judge your level of articulation,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: but I think because men are not inherently verbal compared
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: to how physical you all are, typically you all are
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: in your body. Your body is your machine, is your instrument.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: For women, it's our words. So that's why when a
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: man and a woman fight, typically in my couples, the
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: woman wants to talk and talk and talk and process,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: and the man will go outside and play basketball and
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: go into his man cave and disappear. Because he needs
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: physical space. She needs verbal connection. So the reason why
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: men are misunderstood, poor men, is because they themselves haven't
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: figured out how to speak about their experience. And because
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: we women are so good at it, you all kind
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: of feel shy or inept. We need to help you
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: to come out with how do you feel? Like how
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: do you feel when you want sex every hour?
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Almost.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: And you're being so heroic to only ask for it
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: every once a day. And then your woman rejects you.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm just saying. How does it feel for you?
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: That rejection is tough.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: For us, it's an on and off switch. For you,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: you don't have one. It's always on.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Right. So because ours is on and off, we expect
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: you to have an on and off. And then we
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: look at you as if like, well, you can't just
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: put it off. And you're like, no, I've been so good.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: I've only asked you once in 24 hours. Like, give
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: me some credit. We don't give you credit. We shame you.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: I've seen it. I've shamed you. men for wanting more sex.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what is wrong with you? Like you just
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: had it yesterday.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: And for the man is like, is that all I
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: am to you?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: That's how we feel. So we need to communicate beautifully.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I need to see your needs with beauty. Just like
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: a woman says, can you please treat my emotional needs
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: with beauty? So why am I not treating you with beauty?
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And I teach that to couples. And women don't like it, man.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: They get so upset with me. Like, you've turned the
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: other corner. You've taken his side. And I say, it's
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: because I care about you. I'm teaching you to have
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: compassion for your man. Because when you have compassion for
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: your man, he becomes a better man for you. Right?
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Don't take it like I'm picking sides. This is a unit.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: What do you say to the women that are fed up?
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: You know, in the comment section for our posts, the
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: posts that do the best are the ones where women
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: feel like they just are mistreated, misunderstood. men don't get
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: them and they're angry. And they're so angry because they've
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: generalized all men to be the ones that just want
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: to have sex or just don't treat us with respect.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, so if we want, we women, we can spend
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: our whole life from birth to death and the next
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: seven lifetimes being upset with men. There's so much that
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: has been done to us. We can be upset for
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: 20 lifetimes, okay? And we can be a victim of
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: men and victim mentality for the rest of our lives. Listen,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I was, as I said, I can be a victim
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: of that, okay? I can go to therapy for decades.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: And it would be justified.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: And it would be justified. So that's one way to
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: live our life, okay?
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Go ahead.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: But there's another way to live, which is what I'm proposing,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: and women may not like it, which is, okay, we've
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: been prayed, we've been hurt, but if we want to
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: create a new path for our daughters out of love
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: for them, we got to heal the masculine. So in
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: order to do that, it takes, we have to start listening.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: We have to have empathy. What we want from them,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: we have to start giving. Even though they didn't give
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: it to us, you're right. But who will break the cycle?
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: You know who I believe breaks the cycle? The victim.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: The oppressed. Why should the oppressor break the cycle?
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're fine.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: They're fine. Why should the white man break the cycle?
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: He ain't going to break the cycle. It's up to,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: we're hurt. Sadly enough, we have to rise together. So
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I tell my women, come on, let's collect. Let's not separate.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: And together we'll help our men. Together. But women have
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: a hard time with that because they're like, no, they
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: have to do the work. I go, but the fact
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: that they have not done it is because they don't
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: know how to do it. So we have to enlighten them.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: We have to take leadership. So then women will say.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Why should I be a leader?
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Again, I do everything.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Look at me. I'm a brown woman too. So I'm like,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: why should I teach white people? Okay, don't teach them.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: But they really don't know.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but the beautiful thing though is that as you
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: do that, you actually get men to join that cause.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And I may not get all, but every time I'll
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: get five. And I'll get another five.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: And as a brown woman in terms of race, I
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: do think it's my sacred job to educate white people.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: But many people say, you know, brown people will say,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I'm tired of being, and I understand. It's a hard call.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: That's why I said, if you want to be tired,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: you can be tired for the rest of your life.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Or you can say, I want to be part of
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: the change. And I care about my daughters. I'm doing
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: this not because I love men so much. It's actually
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: because I care about women so much that I want
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: to break the cycle. And I have passion to help
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: men come on this side.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: And breaking that cycle, of course, is also raising our
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: children in this way. And what are the pillars in
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: how we can raise our boys and our girls to
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: live in this way?
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so when I was doing the research for my book,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Raising Conscious Sons, I came to understand that there's some
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: key ingredients if you want to raise a conscious boy.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And if you kind of follow these main pillars, you
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: may raise a conscious man. You may. Because society will
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: do its number. Now, you know, you can't control if
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: the boy goes into the paradigm that is in the
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: mainstream matrix, you know? So one of the main things
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: when they're young, especially, and through puberty, is to allow
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: a boy to be in his body. Meaning, whatever he's expressing,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: He is showing. Don't ask him to use his words.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: He doesn't have to process with you. He doesn't have to.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: He's showing you how he feels. Oh, he's getting all agitated.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Let him go express it outside, in his room, in
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: a safe place. Never shame him for his physical expression
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: because that'll disconnect him from his body. And then it'll
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: show up later in alcoholism, in violence, in sexual abuse.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Teach him that his body is a message. But what
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: mothers do or parents do typically is don't show it
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: through your body and start talking.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Right. How are you feeling? Why are you doing that?
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Stop. Stop moving. What do you need?
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Forcing him. And I'm saying, no, let him move more.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: And that is what most parents, I think, would do.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, no.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: Tell me what you.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: So now he's like, I've got all this energy.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know the words for it. I don't know
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: what it means.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: And now I'm feeling bad. And now I have to dissociate.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: And then we complain that men are dissociated. We taught
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: them that at a young age.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: They're out of their body.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: So counterintuitive.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: That is really well said.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: And also in couples, right? And this is something my
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: partner taught me. He's like, when we argue, I need
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: space because I feel my body is going to go
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: out of control. You'll keep talking and crying. Me, I'm
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: going to do something with my body. So I go
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: out and I run. And he said, you cannot take
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: that personally, right? So once I understood, oh, he's regulating.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: It's not anger in a defective way. It's anger in
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: a regulatory way. If all parents could understand that their
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: boys biting, kicking, screaming, you know what boys do, is
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: actually regulation, just like a girl's crying, wow, we would
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: change the world. Secondly, when a boy hits puberty, the
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: mother needs to go back and she needs to enlist.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know where she goes. She goes to Boys
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: and Girls Clubs. she goes to school, she finds conscious mentors,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: male mentors for her son to talk to him about
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: his erection, to talk to him without shaming him, to
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: teach him that his sexuality is a powerful force, but
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: he needs to learn how to manage it, how to
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: love himself, how to pleasure himself, just like we have
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: to teach our girls how to pleasure themselves. So teach
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: him to become friends with his erection, to become friends
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: with his sexual thoughts, to not think they're bad because
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: they'll keep coming. And then how to respect women in
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: that and to teach what consent means, all that. But
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: men need to do it.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: A mentor that can help you and teach you as
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: an 11, 12, 13-year-old.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: About your sexuality, yeah. That you have to really manage
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: this power. Number three, I talk about rites of passage.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: And in ancient tribes... most men had to test themselves
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: before they were called a man. They weren't just allowed
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: to be a man like here, you know? Oh, on
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: your 15th birthday party, you have a big party or
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: a bar mitzvah where you're just looking cute. How is
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: that now you're a man? And you read some book.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: You don't know what it means.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: You don't know what the hell it means.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you it means something.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Yes. You have to go through physical tests. So what
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: I've started doing with fathers and sons and putting together is,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: are rites of passage journeys where you as a father
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: and your male friends will take your boy into the wilderness.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: You can join me and we can do something. I
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: love this.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: That's why Boy Scouts were so big growing up.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: There you go. They got.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: They were physical rites of passage. Exactly. Do something. Light
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: a fire.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Pick up some wood. Learn the basics. Use your body
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: as an instrument of protection. And then one of the
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: most final things I talk about is that as a man...
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: When you feel weak, when you feel like imperfect and
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: like you're getting a C grade at something, you need
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: to honor that as part of who you are. You're
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: not allowed to just get over it. You're not allowed
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: to just do better. I want parents to teach their
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: boys they're allowed to be an F grade at some
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: things in life, and now you accept the F grade.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: What do we teach them? What is positive psychology? What
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: is the current paradigm? Oh, you get an F grade?
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: You have to overcome it. To a degree, you can overcome.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: But some F grades are just going to be F grades.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Own it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Own it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Fail.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Fail. It's okay. It's okay.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: You can do better next time.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: And you're not going to fall apart.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: And you're not a bad person for failing.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Like back to the toxic masculinity trait that a good
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: guy does. That isn't forever who you are. You just
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: did something that maybe wasn't great.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And you're not fragile because of it. And you don't
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: have to fall apart now. But because men are not
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: allowed to fail. They're not allowed. We are not allowed.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: To maybe look old.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Just, we are not allowed to look old.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Whatever it is.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: We are supposed to be perfect beauties. And what torture
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: we put ourselves through. In the same way, you're not
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: allowed to be incompetent in any way. That is a problem.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: You are incompetent in some ways. And it's okay. It
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: doesn't take away from you. And then you're not upset
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: with me that you're incompetent, right? You're okay with, you're
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: embracing that your masculinity has parts of it That will
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: never be A plus. That's okay. But we don't teach
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: that to children.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: You have strengths and you have things that are weaknesses.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: And that's okay.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: That's great. That actually makes you great.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: I teach my daughter, listen, men are all your boys
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: who you're getting upset with and calling them stupid and
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: dumb every day. I'm like, listen, baby, they're wired differently. Okay.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: They're beautiful in their way. You are expecting too much. Relax.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Stop your expectation that they should talk like you and
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: have all the lingo like you, the poor guy is suffering.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: You know, he's been told to make all this money
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: and provide and poor guy doesn't even know who he,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: you're 23 and you're saying, I don't know who I
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: want to be. When a boy says he doesn't know
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: what he wants to be, he's shamed. Understand the pressure.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: So I'm teaching her, poor guys, understand. And she's like,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: who made you such a, you know, man's lover? I go,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: because I love you. I don't want you to be hurt.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: And I want you to attract good men. But if
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: you're going to turn them all away because you're so angry,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: then you're not going to help yourself. It's a both end.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: So with my partner, I'm constantly telling him about the
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: female brain and how the female brain is wired. And
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: he's constantly telling me how the male brain is wired
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: so much so I know the male brain almost as
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: well as I know my brain because I want to know.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I don't want him to become me. I want to
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: know who he is. And he doesn't want me to
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: be him. So we have to evolve into a new
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: consciousness where we realize how beautiful we are in our differences.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: That's why I wrote two different books. And if we
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: can honor these differences, I can say to my man,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: or any woman can say, teach me who you are. Wow,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you think like that? You're that cold? You're that compartmentalized?
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: And I can say to you how I am. But
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: both have to be willing to learn from the other.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: And men have been conditioned to demean women. And women
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: have been conditioned to react to that. So let's all
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: stop complaining about the other sex and all start healing
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: together because we're all in pain in different ways. We're
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: all suffering.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: I love that. Okay, before we finish, let's play a game.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: I'm going to start the sentence and you finish it.
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: Mothers who overprotect their sons raise men who are.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Ah, raise men who are not sure of themselves, don't
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: trust themselves, feel like they are in a cage and
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: want to break free all the time because she's smothered
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: them and she doesn't trust their inherent capacity to lead themselves.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Amazing. Mothers who didn't get affection from their husbands raise
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: sons who are?
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, could raise sons who they use for companionship, for therapists,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: for best friends, for protection when it's not their job. Amazing.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: Fathers who only show approval when their sons achieve something
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: raise men who.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Are afraid to be imperfect, afraid to be vulnerable, afraid
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: to be who it is they are without that achievement.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: Boys who learn that anger is dangerous grow into men
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: who are.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Actually dangerous because they need to learn that anger is
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: perhaps their way of expressing themselves and they need to
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: learn how to integrate their anger, not look at it
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: as if it's a bad thing. Anger turned aggression and
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: violence is a toxic thing. But anger itself is a
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: powerful messenger for the man or the boy to understand
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: who he is. Amazing. Dr. Shefali.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this conversation.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: Amazing.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Can you come back eventually? Let's do this one more
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: time in a couple months.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: To check on you. Just let me know.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I have been, I really enjoyed this.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you, I enjoyed it.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to read the books. I have a friend
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: who has a daughter who's, a son who's like one
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: or two. She listened to this podcast because she wants
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: to know how to raise better boys to be men.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Her this book.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: Go read Raising Conscious Sons, Raising Conscious Daughters out now everywhere.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Dr. Shefali.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the episode. We hope you loved it.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: So our goal is to get a million guys into
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: therapy with this show. And the biggest thing you could
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: do to support is leave us a five-star review on
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Apple or Spotify.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Kev and I are so passionate about these conversations.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: It makes such a big impact on the show. And
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: it really helps us reach more people who need to
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: hear conversations like this.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: You can also watch the full show on YouTube with
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: videos so you can actually feel like you're in the
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: room with us getting therapy.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Because therapy is expensive. But our podcast is free. So
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: go subscribe, follow, rate, and review. And if you have
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: any feedback on topics you want us to cover, just
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: shoot us a note on Instagram. We'll see you next week.