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S1E7: Boundaries Aren't Just for Romantic or Familial Relationships · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Michelle: Hi D.
• 0:01
  Michelle: Hi, Mish.
• 0:02
  Michelle: We're coming in for a big one today.
• 0:04
  Michelle: How are you feeling heading into the big B boundary conversation?
• 0:09
  Danyelle: You know, probably more in this moment.
• 0:16
  Danyelle: I feel in my body, very present.
• 0:19
  Danyelle: I know as the conversation continues, I'm gonna I'm gonna feel it.
• 0:24
  Danyelle: I'm gonna feel it.
• 0:25
  Danyelle: Boundaries are one everywhere.
• 0:29
  Danyelle: Everybody is talking about boundaries right now.
• 0:32
  Danyelle: And two, so important.
• 0:37
  Michelle: As much work as I've done around boundaries and how it plays off of compassionate communication, I still feel this connection to shame around boundaries, especially when someone else is setting one with me.
• 0:53
  Michelle: And so it's, I think this is one that's sensitive for a lot of us.
• 0:59
  Michelle: And it's like rooted in so much history and how you feel about yourself.
• 1:07
  Danyelle: It's a really layered topic.
• 1:10
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:10
  Danyelle: And I think coming off of the attachment style conversation from last week, there's something about how there's an intersection here of where attachment styles and boundaries meet and how really thinking about your upbringing starts those early understandings of how, when, with whom do we set boundaries?
• 1:36
  Michelle: If I should, am I safe?
• 1:38
  Michelle: And can you use nonviolent communication to do so?
• 1:42
  Michelle: I'm curious about when this idea of setting a boundary through the lens of friendship first came up for you, either in setting a boundary or one being set with you.
• 1:54
  Danyelle: Oh man, I like am immediately transported back to Neil Cummins elementary school on the playground.
• 2:04
  Danyelle: And I was having a day.
• 2:08
  Danyelle: I was having a day.
• 2:13
  Danyelle: But in elementary school, right?
• 2:15
  Danyelle: There was no language for that.
• 2:16
  Danyelle: And I remember feeling so loud in my body that I just like didn't want to be around my friends.
• 2:23
  Danyelle: Like I needed space.
• 2:25
  Danyelle: And I couldn't communicate that.
• 2:28
  Danyelle: I didn't know how to communicate that.
• 2:30
  Danyelle: And so I decided to just find a little nook for myself at lunchtime.
• 2:35
  Danyelle: And I was like eating by myself, not thinking anybody was looking for me.
• 2:40
  Danyelle: And at some point, I like moved or got up and saw my friends frantically looking for me.
• 2:48
  Danyelle: And then they found me and they were like, Where have you been?
• 2:51
  Danyelle: And I remember just feeling so overwhelmed.
• 2:55
  Danyelle: The boundary that I was wanting to set was I needed some space.
• 2:58
  Danyelle: The boundary that I ended up setting was just like keeping to myself.
• 3:05
  Danyelle: And there was such an impact because I didn't communicate anything directly.
• 3:09
  Danyelle: That that is the memory that I was immediately transported back to when you asked me that.
• 3:16
  Danyelle: And I'm thinking about that moment and how in some ways I still do that.
• 3:27
  Michelle: I'm I have such a visual of that.
• 3:29
  Michelle: And I love that your first story is of wanting to set a boundary and not necessarily having the language to do so.
• 3:38
  Michelle: My first memory is also in middle school, just a mile down the road at Kent Middle School.
• 3:45
  Michelle: And I had a friend call me into the counselor's office.
• 3:52
  Michelle: I had been having a hard time at home.
• 3:54
  Michelle: My parents were going through divorce.
• 3:57
  Michelle: We had moved.
• 3:58
  Michelle: There was a lot going on.
• 3:59
  Michelle: Puberty hit me really hard emotionally.
• 4:03
  Michelle: And she had sought support from a counselor who called me in to, in so many words, ask me to stop maybe offloading onto her and that she was having a hard time processing some of the things that were going on for me, and that it was too much for her.
• 4:24
  Michelle: And so as an adult, I can have so much compassion for the little me who very much felt too much and really needed someone to hold those emotions for and with me.
• 4:37
  Michelle: And what I couldn't understand at the time is wow, what a mature response that she sought the help of an adult and that she could acknowledge that it was too much for her for her body.
• 4:51
  Michelle: And I think maybe even her parents had encouraged her to do so.
• 4:55
  Michelle: Obviously, very painful to lose a friend in that way, very embarrassing.
• 5:02
  Michelle: And I think is also just a good starting place, both from the person who wants or needs to set a boundary and the person on the other side of it, is that both of them have these layers of shame.
• 5:15
  Michelle: Am I allowed to be feeling what I'm feeling?
• 5:17
  Michelle: Am I too much?
• 5:19
  Michelle: And that can either prevent you from setting that boundary or from receiving it.
• 5:26
  Michelle: Oof.
• 5:27
  Michelle: Intense.
• 5:28
  Michelle: Already.
• 5:28
  Michelle: I feel like the gate.
• 5:30
  Danyelle: I feel it.
• 5:31
  Michelle: We are, we've arrived.
• 5:35
  Michelle: Yeah, I think that that little Mishi is coming up.
• 5:38
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 5:39
  Michelle: I mean, it's it's heavy.
• 5:41
  Michelle: These conversations that start at such a tender age and then really inform the way that you respond in your relationships as you get older.
• 5:50
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 5:52
  Danyelle: And again, there's not necessarily a easy pickup manual to say, oh, this is how you learned boundaries as a child or in childhood, in elementary school, in your formative years, and this is how it can be applied now.
• 6:10
  Danyelle: That's right.
• 6:11
  Danyelle: So many of us are doing this in trial and error, and not necessarily having that manual, that roadmap, leads to, you know, shrinking.
• 6:27
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 6:28
  Danyelle: Leads to isolation.
• 6:30
  Danyelle: And yeah, everything in between.
• 6:32
  Michelle: And I am so glad that we're in a space and time to be introducing these concepts.
• 6:38
  Michelle: I don't know that my parents were modeling boundaries in a healthy way for me.
• 6:44
  Danyelle: Yeah, I would say not for me.
• 6:47
  Danyelle: And it's interesting because that's actually one of as we were prepping for this episode, I was thinking about that.
• 6:53
  Danyelle: I talked about having disorganized attachment in our last episode.
• 6:58
  Danyelle: And that's kind of how I feel with boundaries.
• 7:01
  Danyelle: Like there are ways in which I can set a boundary in an instant, not it's innate.
• 7:07
  Danyelle: It is it is in my bones.
• 7:09
  Danyelle: And wow, there are ways that I would rather paint a house with a toothbrush than set a boundary.
• 7:18
  Danyelle: And I see it in my parents.
• 7:20
  Danyelle: Interesting.
• 7:21
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Michelle: And I agreed because that anxious attachment style where you want to be loved and accepted and held, it feels sometimes at odds with, but what if I hurt somebody's feelings?
• 7:37
  Michelle: Or what if I say it the wrong way, or they don't come back, and there's a real fear or scarcity there.
• 7:43
  Michelle: And so I think through this conversation, I hope that even for us, we have this opportunity to illuminate when to set a boundary, how to do it, why it might be time, and also the ways in which we can hold the multitudes of you might need a boundary and benefit from it, but also it's really hard.
• 8:06
  Michelle: So hard.
• 8:06
  Michelle: It can be.
• 8:09
  Michelle: It can be.
• 8:10
  Michelle: With practice, it it comes easier.
• 8:14
  Michelle: So I want to start by talking about how you know that it's time to set a boundary.
• 8:21
  Michelle: And this one, I think, for those to whom it wasn't modeled and/or you saw it happen and not go well, it can be really difficult to know when, especially again, when you see this sort of, I do everything for my children, I do everything for my friends, I say yes to every request.
• 8:43
  Michelle: And that's built into the way that I show up as a parent, as a spouse, et cetera.
• 8:50
  Michelle: How do you know that it's time to break the molds there when that's what's been shown to you?
• 8:56
  Michelle: And so I like looking at the beat model.
• 9:01
  Michelle: B stands for body.
• 9:03
  Michelle: And this one's arguably the hardest for me.
• 9:06
  Michelle: I'm someone who had, I love that I get to say had, had chronic pain for over a decade.
• 9:12
  Michelle: I want to say, yes.
• 9:15
  Michelle: Yeah, I want to say 13 or 14 years.
• 9:18
  Michelle: Recently, this is a bit of an offshoot, but recently I've experienced a bunch of healing through acupuncture, but I did experience chronic and debilitating back pain that sort of had me waking up at a 90-degree angle.
• 9:32
  Michelle: And in order to survive the day, I really dissociated from my body.
• 9:38
  Michelle: And so I wasn't experiencing as much pain, but I also wasn't experiencing as much pleasure.
• 9:44
  Michelle: And I was really out of practice of checking in with my body to know how any certain situation was feeling.
• 9:51
  Michelle: And it was very much that muscle through and get it done energy, which has its place in survival and thriving at times.
• 9:59
  Michelle: And then sometimes it's no longer working for you.
• 10:02
  Michelle: So, body is the first thing to check in with when I'm making plans with someone, when someone's asking me a favor, when I'm getting an assignment, where am I feeling that in my body?
• 10:14
  Michelle: Where is it landing?
• 10:15
  Michelle: And to me, that's visceral because you know when a certain person texts in your stomach drops, or you're like, oh my God, and you kind of have that cringe moment, that can be your first signal.
• 10:29
  Michelle: The second is what is the effect of it all in your life of not having a boundary and/or what it could be if you did.
• 10:38
  Michelle: And so the effect might be that I cringe every time and I dread every time I get that text, and I dread spending time with someone or making that phone call, but I'm doing it because I feel like I have to.
• 10:50
  Michelle: The A is for alignment, and alignment is this idea of the life that I want to build and the sort of self that I'm upholding or working towards as I evolve, as I grow, as I learn.
• 11:06
  Michelle: And does spending time with this person, does being in community with this person andor interacting align?
• 11:13
  Michelle: Does this action align?
• 11:15
  Michelle: And then the T is thanks.
• 11:19
  Michelle: And it's, will you thank yourself for setting this boundary?
• 11:24
  Michelle: And sometimes it's such an easy yes.
• 11:26
  Michelle: We're like, oh my God, if I could just do that, on the other side of it is peace or rest.
• 11:34
  Michelle: So that is helpful to me.
• 11:37
  Michelle: And and to be honest, it's a work in progress.
• 11:40
  Michelle: And there might be just one that really resonates with you that works as you consider it.
• 11:45
  Michelle: Will I think myself later for someone like me who needs to work into that uh somatic experience?
• 11:52
  Michelle: But I like being able to check back on that as I ask myself if it's time.
• 11:58
  Danyelle: I love the beat framework.
• 12:01
  Danyelle: It is such an easy way to apply to tap in.
• 12:06
  Danyelle: And the thing that I love about it is you can use it together, or you can just use one, and you're still gonna get a very similar answer.
• 12:15
  Danyelle: Um, as somebody who has deeply worked on embodiment, thinking about my body is so loud.
• 12:24
  Danyelle: My body is so loud.
• 12:26
  Danyelle: And I want to encourage folks to practice feeling that embodiment, finding your yeses and your no's in your body.
• 12:36
  Danyelle: Doing that is just going to improve the conversation that you're already having with your body.
• 12:42
  Danyelle: And so whether it's whichever letter it is, this framework is going to support you.
• 12:48
  Danyelle: My other favorite is the gratitude piece.
• 12:51
  Danyelle: The words that you used around that were thanks, peace, and rest.
• 12:56
  Danyelle: Done.
• 12:57
  Danyelle: Count me in.
• 12:58
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 13:01
  Michelle: Without further ado, can you talk to me a little bit about what is a boundary?
• 13:08
  Danyelle: Yeah, I would love to talk about what a boundary is and what it could potentially look like.
• 13:14
  Danyelle: The quote I love so much about boundaries by Prentice Hemp Hill is boundaries are the promises we keep to ourselves.
• 13:23
  Danyelle: And I love that because so often when we think about a boundary, it's about the other person's behavior.
• 13:29
  Danyelle: It's this projection of I don't like this person when they do X.
• 13:35
  Danyelle: And what you're really saying is, I don't have capacity for what that person is bringing to the table.
• 13:42
  Danyelle: And it's about you.
• 13:44
  Danyelle: And I think that gets lost in it.
• 13:47
  Danyelle: Um, a boundary isn't about controlling other people's behavior, but being clear about what you are willing to do to keep yourself safe, to keep yourself within like that capacity piece.
• 14:01
  Danyelle: And I will say these parameters are the ways in which people love you, the ways in which people engage with you, the way that you are teaching people how to treat you.
• 14:14
  Danyelle: And so for me, you know, boundaries are what am I willing to do?
• 14:21
  Danyelle: Where are my lines?
• 14:24
  Danyelle: Not other people's lines, but where are my lines?
• 14:27
  Danyelle: And again, what are the promises I'm gonna keep to myself?
• 14:31
  Danyelle: At the end of the day, can I thank myself for the way that I showed up, the way that I walked through the world today?
• 14:38
  Michelle: I think that's really important.
• 14:40
  Michelle: And one of the things I want to call out that you touched on is that the word boundary we usually think of as a divide, right?
• 14:49
  Michelle: A wall.
• 14:49
  Michelle: A wall.
• 14:51
  Michelle: I like to think of it as a layer of protection.
• 14:55
  Michelle: It is mostly about what you need for yourself, about how to protect your peace, your rest, etc.
• 15:04
  Michelle: And just naming that often a boundary, like the most common boundary you might understand is around behaviors.
• 15:12
  Michelle: And we often think of setting a boundary with our parents.
• 15:15
  Michelle: Can you not call me five times a day during my workday, for instance?
• 15:20
  Michelle: Oh, wait, you have a job.
• 15:23
  Michelle: But behaviors can also be coming from you or towards you.
• 15:28
  Michelle: It can also be about attention where your attention goes.
• 15:31
  Michelle: And sometimes the boundary is a decision you have to make for yourself.
• 15:35
  Michelle: Like how much screen time am I allowing myself to have?
• 15:40
  Michelle: Because you have this sort of what I call leaky energy that can happen when you're scrolling and then things are passing by you that you didn't necessarily ask for, your body wasn't ready for, and then all of a sudden you're deep in a war.
• 15:54
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 15:54
  Michelle: Or a war, both literally because of the political landscape, but also a war on your body and what it should or could look like.
• 16:04
  Michelle: And so what boundaries might you set to protect your attention?
• 16:08
  Michelle: There's also bandwidth, how much your nervous system can take on and protecting the space in your life.
• 16:17
  Michelle: Going back to the story I told about middle school, it is that emotional bandwidth.
• 16:22
  Michelle: It's not saying I don't like you or care about you as a friend.
• 16:26
  Michelle: It's as a 13-year-old, I'm at my capacity of what I can take on.
• 16:31
  Michelle: And lastly, inner child work, setting boundaries because that younger version of you wants to feel seen and loved and held and cared for.
• 16:43
  Michelle: And through reparenting as an adult, you get to set boundaries that protect your younger version of yourself in ways that maybe you weren't protected growing up.
• 16:53
  Danyelle: I love being able to break it down into these four categories because it gives us the language to talk about what is coming up.
• 17:03
  Danyelle: As you said, most boundaries really arise around somebody else's behavior.
• 17:09
  Danyelle: And we are setting boundaries all of the time, you know, multiple times a day.
• 17:15
  Danyelle: And I think in a lot of ways, we don't think about some of the boundaries that we set for ourselves.
• 17:19
  Danyelle: I have a boundary around work.
• 17:21
  Danyelle: I don't work before 11 a.m.
• 17:24
  Danyelle: And uh as a therapist, my joke is I'm a bad therapist until 11 a.m.
• 17:31
  Danyelle: And there's flexibility there, but my best self is at that time.
• 17:36
  Danyelle: That is a boundary that again feels really safe, feels very easy.
• 17:40
  Danyelle: That's really not about anybody else's behavior.
• 17:43
  Danyelle: It's very much what is my capacity, what is my bandwidth.
• 17:46
  Michelle: And it could be though, if you go and try to book me before 11 a.m., I will reschedule you or I'm not the right therapist for you.
• 17:55
  Michelle: Correct.
• 17:56
  Michelle: When you know where your best self is located, and if it's after 11 a.m., it becomes so easy to guide people towards the pathway to find you there.
• 18:06
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 18:06
  Michelle: And then it's a gift because now they know.
• 18:10
  Michelle: Whereas you could just keep canceling and rescheduling without saying anything runningly or not being your best self, and they would have no idea and they wouldn't be receiving the fullness of you.
• 18:23
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 18:25
  Michelle: Why do boundaries feel so violent?
• 18:28
  Michelle: Or why can they?
• 18:29
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 18:31
  Danyelle: It's our nervous system, it's fear, right?
• 18:35
  Danyelle: If we're thinking about this in the context of I don't want to be mean, I shrink, I'm a people pleaser.
• 18:45
  Danyelle: Um, I want to be liked, I don't know how.
• 18:51
  Danyelle: To then ask somebody who is cycling through these different conversations in their head to do something that feels so big, it becomes incredibly challenging.
• 19:02
  Danyelle: It becomes a mountain because we haven't trained our bodies, we haven't seen it modeled.
• 19:11
  Danyelle: And that window of tolerance, if the window of tolerance is where we want to be, where we're resourced, we have enough sleep, and we're able to set a boundary or even talk about a boundary.
• 19:24
  Danyelle: If you don't have those things, if you're feeling under-resourced when you don't have the tools, it's so easy to slip outside of your window of tolerance and enter a hypo or hyper-aroused state where you might collapse and you might say, it's okay, or you might emote, as I like to say, and become activated.
• 19:45
  Danyelle: And then you're not talking about the boundary, then you're talking about the behavior and the reaction.
• 19:53
  Michelle: What's coming up for me and what I love about boundaries with friends is that it removes some of the hierarchy that we normally experience when we think about boundaries.
• 20:04
  Michelle: Boundaries with a parent, where maybe you're more resourced actually as the younger person, but usually the parent is the layer above in terms of hierarchy.
• 20:14
  Michelle: You're setting boundaries with your child, which can be difficult for a whole other host of reasons.
• 20:20
  Michelle: At work, where you might be working with a boss or someone who you manage.
• 20:25
  Michelle: With friendships, it's this really unique relationship, and it feels often safer to play with boundaries, or it can.
• 20:33
  Michelle: I think for us, we've worked into that.
• 20:35
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 20:35
  Michelle: And also it's this place where you get to both practice and build this life that you want to.
• 20:44
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:45
  Danyelle: It goes back to boundaries are the way we show people how to care and love on us, right?
• 20:51
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 20:52
  Danyelle: And that's exactly what you're speaking to in terms of friendship.
• 20:57
  Michelle: Before we move on, I wanted to touch also when you were talking about your nervous system.
• 21:06
  Michelle: To me, what's really intrinsic in so many of these topics that we're discussing together is the self-work.
• 21:14
  Michelle: It's whether that looks like therapy, meditation, reading, conversation with your bestie, that you're exploring your inner world in a way that allows you to question how do I both give and receive feedback?
• 21:32
  Michelle: And what do I know about myself in conflict and how can I create safety for myself and my body and ask for what I need?
• 21:41
  Michelle: But this is sort of advanced, it can peek into advanced level stuff.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:47
  Michelle: But that question of why does it feel so violent?
• 21:51
  Michelle: I think it just really comes down to like, we all just want to be good.
• 21:56
  Michelle: We all want to be loved.
• 21:57
  Michelle: Oh my goodness.
• 21:58
  Michelle: We all want connection and So when somebody brings something to us, that's what might be perceived as a stop sign.
• 22:05
  Michelle: Depending on the work that you've done and how prepared you are for that conversation, it can feel like a rejection.
• 22:11
  Danyelle: As you were talking, I'm really sitting with how I've mentioned in a couple of our earlier episodes that avoidance is something I am swimming deeply.
• 22:24
  Danyelle: I'm swimming in the avoidance deep end right now.
• 22:27
  Danyelle: Once again, shout out to my therapist.
• 22:29
  Danyelle: Just had therapy today, just moments ago.
• 22:32
  Danyelle: It's just really feeling top of mind.
• 22:35
  Danyelle: But this idea of the ways that you're coming, you're coming into this conversation of like the person receiving the boundary.
• 22:44
  Danyelle: And something that I'm working on is not avoiding and being the person who sets the boundary.
• 22:51
  Danyelle: And that feels I'm hearing you say, like, oh, it can feel like a rejection of self.
• 22:57
  Danyelle: And I'm immediately like, see, see, I shouldn't do it.
• 23:03
  Danyelle: And I'm naming this one for all of us as we're working through this, even with my own therapy.
• 23:10
  Danyelle: And as a therapist, it is still really challenging.
• 23:14
  Danyelle: And there are so many moments where things could go awry if we are not taking the moments to slow down, to prep, you know, when you're going to have a boundary conversation to be able to say this is what I'm gonna say, going back to our compassionate communication episode.
• 23:40
  Danyelle: Yeah, there's just what are the tools that I need to get through this?
• 23:45
  Danyelle: Because it's hard.
• 23:47
  Danyelle: I always say if boundaries were easy, I wouldn't have a job.
• 23:51
  Michelle: Well, and we're here as friends to talk about it.
• 23:54
  Michelle: This isn't, even though we both have different layers of education around it, it's not like here is your one, two, three, four, five-step guide to setting a boundary.
• 24:05
  Michelle: And literally, how do you do it?
• 24:08
  Michelle: And it might be different every time, but what are our best practices around setting a boundary?
• 24:13
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 24:14
  Danyelle: Well, let's talk about a time that we've had to set a boundary.
• 24:17
  Danyelle: All right, let's do it.
• 24:18
  Danyelle: Um, with each other.
• 24:20
  Danyelle: The one that comes to mind is birthdays.
• 24:22
  Danyelle: A few years back, Michelle had really directly asked me to keep her birthday weekend open.
• 24:33
  Danyelle: I think maybe week, but weekend for sure.
• 24:35
  Danyelle: And it was after several forgetful moments around like, oh, yeah, I have something happening during your birthday.
• 24:45
  Danyelle: And it's one of those things that in my head, this is why communication is also really important.
• 24:53
  Danyelle: In my head, I'm like, it's fine.
• 24:56
  Danyelle: She doesn't need me, quote, need me there, or I'll come later, or we'll do something separate.
• 25:04
  Danyelle: It was the I'm in your orbit and I'm important to you, and we know that.
• 25:10
  Danyelle: So, like, it's okay.
• 25:12
  Danyelle: Um, and I remember a birthday celebration for you that was just the two of us, where you had asked me, and I remember receiving it and immediately feeling defensive, immediately feeling like, well, I, and then taking a pause, coming back into my body and hearing you, hearing what you were saying, what you were asking me.
• 25:42
  Danyelle: And what you were really asking me was for care in a really specific way.
• 25:50
  Danyelle: And again, you showed me very clearly how to love you.
• 25:54
  Danyelle: And now I have a recurring calendar reminder.
• 26:00
  Danyelle: Your birthday was already there, but now I have a block of do not schedule anything because of how impactful it was for you.
• 26:11
  Danyelle: And so as much as that was challenging to hear and to hold, because you want to be good, want to be a good girl, to be a good friend, totally, and it can sound like an attack on I am not a good friend, she doesn't think I'm a good friend, she thinks I don't care, I didn't mean to plan over, and like these are the kinds of stories that might be cycling totally, yeah, yeah.
• 26:40
  Danyelle: And again, there's a world in which you never say anything, and we go through our friendship every year having some resentment, rupture, resentment, some blip because we're not talking.
• 26:59
  Danyelle: And now it's on the table, I can clearly see it, and I get to say, I hear you, and this is what I can meet that, or this is actually what I can offer.
• 27:13
  Danyelle: And then you then get to decide.
• 27:16
  Danyelle: Yes, it becomes a negotiation, and I think that's a really important piece because I think sometimes we forget that when we set a boundary, people are always gonna push up against them.
• 27:26
  Danyelle: I think that's very common.
• 27:28
  Danyelle: But we do want to offer the other person to meet us.
• 27:32
  Danyelle: People get to opt out, they get to opt in, but that's not a direct attack, it's not a value judgment on who you are as a human.
• 27:44
  Michelle: The one that's coming up for me is around we actually both set boundaries on this topic uh of time.
• 27:54
  Michelle: And one of the conversations that we had is talking about time as a construct and timeliness in particular being a function of the white patriarchy, that colonization being on time is this symbol of I care about you, I consider you worthy, I respect you, and then not is the opposite with very little room for what happens in the middle.
• 28:26
  Michelle: And part of the reason why that gets wrapped up in the patriarchy is think about who is often staying home with children, for instance, or who doesn't have a driver picking them up and nobody else to take care of, and all of the things that might contribute to a person being late.
• 28:44
  Michelle: And that's just speaking high-level.
• 28:46
  Michelle: But you were sharing with me your relationship to time and asked me to engage in that conversation, engage in some learning around that as well, so that I could get to know you more.
• 29:02
  Michelle: And then also that it would help your nervous system feel safer if I could accept that about you.
• 29:09
  Michelle: And it's not saying I'm always gonna be late and I'll never do a thing, and it is asking for me to know you deeper and also to offer more grace than I had in the past.
• 29:21
  Michelle: And again, that does allow us, this is where we've met for negotiation because we do have so much safety in our relationship.
• 29:32
  Michelle: We both get to take advantage of I'm running 15 minutes late, I'm on the bridge, etc.
• 29:37
  Michelle: And even just geographically where we live, we need that flexibility with each other.
• 29:42
  Michelle: And I know I need it as a parent of things that will happen.
• 29:45
  Michelle: And where we met in the middle is I really look forward to our time together, and I might look forward to it all week or block off time.
• 29:56
  Michelle: And so I asked that we not cancel last minute if we could help it, not because I don't understand, but more because it makes me really sad.
• 30:05
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 30:05
  Michelle: And I want to see you.
• 30:07
  Michelle: And so those are two examples where we each got to bring up what's important to us.
• 30:13
  Michelle: We get to know each other deeper, we get to ask for what we need, and it's not a perfect this or that.
• 30:20
  Michelle: We get to live in the gray.
• 30:22
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 30:23
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 30:23
  Danyelle: And I just also want to name when you said to me, it makes me sad.
• 30:30
  Danyelle: I was like, oh, it was a bit of a light bulb not connecting the dots moment for me.
• 30:40
  Danyelle: And that's because of what I hold around time.
• 30:43
  Danyelle: And it never occurred to me that that was the impact.
• 30:48
  Danyelle: And again, this is why we have to practice.
• 30:54
  Michelle: You could have held that, just like and not said the thing or stopped making plans with you.
• 31:01
  Michelle: And that could be my unspoken boundary is if you are a person who can't meet me here, then to protect myself, I won't make plans with you.
• 31:12
  Michelle: But in our circumstance, that wasn't gonna work because I want to spend time with you, you know.
• 31:17
  Michelle: So how do we stay in this relationship?
• 31:22
  Michelle: But both are a boundary.
• 31:23
  Michelle: I think what we're talking about here is what that looks like in friendship, absolutely, which I think does really benefit from the dialogue, from the conversation.
• 31:33
  Michelle: Yes, yes.
• 31:35
  Danyelle: Yeah, this is good.
• 31:38
  Danyelle: I'm having so many thoughts.
• 31:40
  Michelle: I know all the all the conversations.
• 31:44
  Michelle: One thing you said that I want to reflect back is there is a little bit about or around our own self-image or how we hold ourselves as being a person who can impact another.
• 31:58
  Michelle: Especially when we hold someone like our friend in high esteem.
• 32:02
  Michelle: You might not think that you have the ability to hurt them or make them sad.
• 32:08
  Michelle: Also, dare I bring up introversion versus extroversion.
• 32:12
  Michelle: There's that sort of meme flying around where somebody cancels last minute and you're like, say less, and you're in pajamas less than five minutes.
• 32:20
  Michelle: And so have different relationships.
• 32:22
  Michelle: We have different relationships to having plans and what the impact is when they get canceled.
• 32:30
  Michelle: I think that's getting to the place where you have your resource, you have the tools to have the conversation, can lead to so much richness and deeper connection with your beloveds, as you say.
• 32:45
  Michelle: I like to love the way you do it.
• 32:48
  Michelle: I do want to talk a little bit about the mechanics of a boundary.
• 32:53
  Michelle: We've touched on it throughout the episode, but just to put a finer point, it is very largely about what about what you need and what you will do if that need is not met.
• 33:05
  Michelle: It's the need, request, and then what that then means for you.
• 33:10
  Michelle: Because ultimately we can't control another person's actions as much as we might want to.
• 33:16
  Michelle: And so, with respect to boundary setting, obviously being calm and regulated, Danielle talked about being prepared in some way or another for the conversation, being in a place when, like when we spoke about my birthday, it was just the two of us.
• 33:30
  Michelle: We had shared a meal together, you know.
• 33:34
  Michelle: We were at the spa.
• 33:35
  Michelle: We were at the spa.
• 33:36
  Michelle: So it was a nice relaxing place, and we got to come from a place of shared connection.
• 33:41
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:41
  Michelle: Spa may not always be available to you, but but really choosing choosing your ground of where to bring up the conversation.
• 33:51
  Michelle: I I keep kind of thinking about boundaries with parents because I feel like that's mostly in the zeitgeist right now is if you call me during my work day, I won't answer.
• 34:06
  Michelle: Again, you have a job.
• 34:09
  Michelle: But that's it, right?
• 34:10
  Michelle: What will you do if that boundary isn't met?
• 34:12
  Michelle: And and then it creates peace for you both because they might forget, they're not looking at the calendar in the same way, there's a time difference, so they may not be intending to hurt you or make your life more challenging.
• 34:27
  Michelle: And so then how will you respond?
• 34:30
  Michelle: And I think being really clear about that is important.
• 34:33
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Michelle: And I and I said it before with our relationship with time of maybe with another friend, it's if we can't hold plans together, then it it's really hard to make this decision.
• 34:48
  Michelle: But then I need to be more thoughtful about do I continue to invite you places.
• 34:56
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 34:57
  Danyelle: I've been on the receiving end of that conversation.
• 35:01
  Danyelle: Shout out to folks who left me because I'm timeline.
• 35:06
  Michelle: One of the things we touched on a bit but didn't dive into is people pleasing.
• 35:10
  Danyelle: This idea of people pleasing and uh fawning, right?
• 35:16
  Danyelle: Um, not stepping into your power is seen as, or we've been taught that that is that is bad.
• 35:25
  Danyelle: People who fawn and people who just say, oh yeah, you know, cool girl syndrome.
• 35:31
  Danyelle: Don't, you know, just just be cool, it's all good.
• 35:34
  Danyelle: That fawning is then the thing that that you're supposed to do.
• 35:39
  Danyelle: That's the box you fall into.
• 35:41
  Danyelle: And I would say, especially people socialize as women.
• 35:45
  Danyelle: When you are socialized as a woman, you are very much expected to people please to fawn, to say yes.
• 35:56
  Danyelle: And how that impacts boundaries, how that impacts if you are a human who was raised in a household where you saw women fawning all of the time, right?
• 36:10
  Danyelle: That feels like the thing that you do.
• 36:13
  Danyelle: And so when I think about people pleasing, when I think about the impacts of it on boundaries, I oftentimes go back to this.
• 36:22
  Danyelle: How are we really looking at the ways we're showing up?
• 36:26
  Danyelle: How are we really looking at what is ours?
• 36:29
  Danyelle: What is something that was given to us or an internalized belief?
• 36:35
  Danyelle: How did it serve us?
• 36:36
  Danyelle: And how are we ready to move on from it because it doesn't serve us anymore?
• 36:42
  Michelle: So many things.
• 36:42
  Michelle: My mind is spinning, but this might be a little controversial, but I think this is also a big reason so many of us are very confronted by Gen Z, because they're not as tied to people pleasing as we are and were, and in our parents' generations.
• 37:01
  Michelle: Oh my goodness.
• 37:02
  Michelle: And above were.
• 37:04
  Michelle: And this idea of like, wow, we really had to bowl over our boundaries again and again and again, whether it was staying late at work, going beyond your job description, going beyond your physical boundaries, because it was a work trip, and the younger generation is not being socialized in the same way.
• 37:25
  Michelle: In some ways, because we're not in those third spaces as much, where an auntie is smacking you over the head at church, or maybe they haven't physically been in a workplace, but also because we are maybe teaching the Anger generation differently to have boundaries and to speak up for themselves in a way that can be really confronting when that wasn't something that was afforded to you.
• 37:46
  Michelle: So I think there's an invitation there.
• 37:49
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 37:50
  Danyelle: I mean, I love it.
• 37:52
  Danyelle: Gen Z, love y'all.
• 37:55
  Danyelle: Y'all scare me a little bit.
• 37:56
  Danyelle: Not because of the things you do, but because I'm envious.
• 38:00
  Danyelle: Deeply.
• 38:02
  Michelle: Is there anything that bubbled to the surface or cracked you open this episode?
• 38:07
  Danyelle: Oh, I really enjoyed our conversation about the birthday and the time.
• 38:14
  Danyelle: It's a bubbling to the top.
• 38:15
  Danyelle: We haven't talked about that in some time.
• 38:17
  Danyelle: And both of those conversations have happened recently.
• 38:24
  Danyelle: And like, I'm proud of us.
• 38:27
  Danyelle: I'm really proud of us.
• 38:29
  Danyelle: I will say both of those things absolutely could have ended our friendship.
• 38:36
  Michelle: Even as we were talking about them in a place where we came out not only on the other side, but with this deeper understanding of each other, it's still tender.
• 38:45
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 38:46
  Michelle: It's hard to hear it even reflected back to me.
• 38:50
  Michelle: I can feel little tinges of defensiveness and wanting to share more.
• 38:56
  Michelle: And because I almost want to defend my boundary because it's embarrassing.
• 39:02
  Michelle: It can feel a little embarrassing to have a boundary and to really communicate a need because you don't want to be a bother.
• 39:09
  Michelle: And and if I can't bother my best friend with this, who can I?
• 39:13
  Michelle: Right.
• 39:13
  Michelle: I think that's what's interesting that came up in my body was this like, oh, like I feel like a kid being like, Can you come to my birthday party?
• 39:21
  Michelle: Right?
• 39:22
  Michelle: It's silly.
• 39:23
  Michelle: And it was, I'm proud of myself because it is that emotional core that I'm protecting that younger part of me that didn't always feel like I was worthy of being celebrated.
• 39:37
  Danyelle: Oh.
• 39:38
  Danyelle: And like baby Danielle is absolutely like, yes, baby Mish.
• 39:43
  Danyelle: And and thank you for the grace because I was very, very, very not often given any grace for the way that I understand time in my body.
• 39:59
  Danyelle: And so, you know, I think it's so beautiful to be in this moment right now.
• 40:06
  Danyelle: Y'all are seeing the breakthroughs, the growth.
• 40:10
  Danyelle: Um, I just love it.
• 40:13
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 40:14
  Danyelle: Will you pull us a card?
• 40:15
  Danyelle: I will.
• 40:18
  Danyelle: Oh, this is good stuff, y'all.
• 40:21
  Michelle: It's good for us.
• 40:22
  Danyelle: I mean isn't good for you.
• 40:26
  Danyelle: Yellow.
• 40:34
  Danyelle: The lovers.
• 40:37
  Danyelle: Okay, y'all.
• 40:38
  Danyelle: This is episode seven, I believe.
• 40:42
  Danyelle: And every episode almost we've pulled a major card.
• 40:48
  Michelle: Well, these are major topics.
• 40:51
  Michelle: We'll get into some of the sub layers, but we're going deep fast.
• 40:56
  Danyelle: The cards, no.
• 40:57
  Danyelle: They do.
• 40:58
  Danyelle: The lovers.
• 41:00
  Danyelle: I'm still using the mahogany tarot.
• 41:03
  Danyelle: I think I'm gonna just use this all season one.
• 41:04
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 41:05
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 41:05
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 41:06
  Danyelle: So the way that I interpret the lovers is the original card before it was called The Lovers.
• 41:12
  Danyelle: Shout out to Pamela Coleman Smith, who is the illustrator of the writer weight Smith deck.
• 41:20
  Danyelle: The original card was actually called Choice.
• 41:24
  Danyelle: And before it was Lovers, it was this idea of choosing between two people.
• 41:30
  Danyelle: The way that I interpret this card is the two figures on the card are one halves of you, of one whole person.
• 41:40
  Danyelle: And the reason that I interpret it through this lens of choice or who you're picking is because we always have to pick ourselves.
• 41:48
  Danyelle: When I pull the lover's card, I think often in in readings, people are like, ooh, and I'm like, yes, and before we can choose anybody else, we have to choose ourselves.
• 42:02
  Danyelle: And so I see this, you know, angelic angel figure pulling these two halves together in union.
• 42:12
  Danyelle: And so much of this conversation today has been about you, us moving from your center.
• 42:19
  Danyelle: What is your boundary?
• 42:21
  Danyelle: What is your understanding of what that means?
• 42:24
  Danyelle: Where did it come from?
• 42:26
  Danyelle: In choosing yourself, you're always going to be walking within your own boundaries because you are you are choosing.
• 42:35
  Danyelle: And so I want to encourage all of you to choose you.
• 42:39
  Danyelle: Bring all of your parts along.
• 42:41
  Danyelle: Who are you when you allow everybody to participate?
• 42:45
  Michelle: And I would say use that beat framework, body effect, alignment, and thanks to think about where you might be ready to set a boundary in your life.
• 42:57
  Michelle: We'll see you next week.
• 42:58
  Michelle: Bye.
• 43:00
  Danyelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 43:03
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 43:12
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 43:14
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 43:22
  Danyelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 43:24
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 43:29
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.