Latest / The Prompt / Ep. 558 | Scaling new verticals: GTM best practices for B2B sales leaders

Transcript

Ep. 558 | Scaling new verticals: GTM best practices for B2B sales leaders · The Prompt

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This is on base your one stop shop for solving your most
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pressing B2B go to market challenges.
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Each week, host Chris Moody and Paul Gibson talk to sales and
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marketing leaders to get you in depth insights and creative
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strategies to set your revenue teams up for success.
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Well, hello everyone, and welcome back to the latest in
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the award-winning on Base podcast series.
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I'm your host, Paul Gibson and with everyone in B2B exploring
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how they can improve GTM strategies in 2025.
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I'm really excited that today I'm talking with Carolina from
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Do Instruct. And today, we're discussing an
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interesting topic, building a winning GTM strategy and lessons
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from scaling new verticals. So Carolina, excited to get you
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into this with you and thanks very much for coming on the
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show. Thank you very much Paul and to
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the whole demand based team for having me today.
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I'm very excited. Great stuff.
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So before we get into the the main topic of the podcast, if
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you don't mind, let's start with a simple question.
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Carolina, can you walk us through your journey to where
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you are today? Of course, I'm trying to keep it
1:03
short and simple because I'm a salesperson, so naturally I
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tried to stretch stories as vastly and largely as I can.
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But I started my journey in B2B software when I was 20, so 8
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years ago, and I started as an SCR as a working student besides
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my studies. And back in the day I worked at
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Echo Bot, now from now known as Dealfront, a company that sells
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bTB data for sales and marketing purposes basically.
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And as you might know, they have a very large customer, a large
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target audience, large pool of different industries and tie
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rings and everything that they can pull potential customers
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from. So I tackled the challenge of
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picking the cherries right from the very beginning, which we'll
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also dive in later. Make my way from working student
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to account executive, senior account executive.
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I left I'll front last year after being in the enterprise
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motion for lastly 2 years. And now I made my way to do
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Instruct company from also Germany, based in Berlin, and we
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support companies in properly training their blue collar
2:20
workers. I'm focusing on the construction
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vertical at the moment, which has also very place in my heart
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because I am the daughter of an entrepreneur in the construction
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space. So I grew up on construction
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sites and the people that we built this software for are the
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people that basically looked after me and watched out for me
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when I was visiting construction sites.
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So yeah, that's how I got here. Excellent.
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Sounds like an interesting journey, so it's great to hear.
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And as you look back, was there anything particular that led you
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to focus on crafting GTM strategies for specific
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verticals? Obviously, I'll get the
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construction thing now. What excites you most about
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that? Well, actually I had to focus on
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any kind of target for a back of the day at Echo Watt because as
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an SDR at that time, it is just, and it still is to this very
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date very inefficient to just bluntly call everybody who have
3:21
you got the number from either pitching them generically or
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just trying to individualize the pitch to every single company
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and stakeholder that you're trying to convince to put a
3:32
meeting with you. And both cost either time or
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resources. And I tried to use Perito to not
3:42
have to invest that much time, but get the best results
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possible. So I just looked at our customer
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database at that time, which were the happiest customers,
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which were the customers that closed the fastest and which
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were the customers that were most satisfying with the use
4:00
cases or how we actually solve their problems within the
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platform. And then I just dove deeper into
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it because I was talking to VP sales, VP marketing's members of
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the board and they will certainly not listen to you if
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you don't at least speak their lingo.
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No, their market, no. The other players, no, I don't
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know any any bigger reports or stuff.
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So I actually with my manager at that time built the sales and
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marketing development team. And our goal basically was to
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detect the focus industries for echo bot slash Deophran at the
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time to properly educate the sales team and also the
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marketing team on who are the biggest players.
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What software does this niche in the market usually use?
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What are the main problems? How are the hierarchies in these
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very specific companies to just be well informed when entering a
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sales process with a member of this target audience?
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And that's exactly the same thing that I did at Do Instruct
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and still am doing it Do Instruct at this very date
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because I believe in always putting yourself in the shoes of
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your customer. And as a customer, if you were
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talking to a salesperson that didn't know your processes, that
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didn't know your problems, that didn't know your lingo and just
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tried to sell you something you wouldn't buy from them neither
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now or never. So I believe in giving prospects
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the best time when entering a buying process with me and and
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the main work to do at the very beginning of this very process
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is on my end because I have to properly educate myself and the
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people that shall win me close this deal.
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Yeah, absolutely. And I think relevance is so
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important. Often even in our our business,
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we, we're selling pretty similar things to do some of the things,
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but the way they talk about it, the way they report on it is
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vastly different. And you it's not a
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one-size-fits-all. And we see that a lot.
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And actually it's one of the keys to demand bases that
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ability to be flexible and and work for the way a business
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works and evolve as they evolve. So yeah, that's that experience
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is, is really, really important. So if we start digging into the
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main topic I suppose of today, a good starting point might be
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asking how does organizing teams into industry focused pods
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really shape your GTM approach? One has to keep in mind that
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specifically during struck, we do have two tie ring motions.
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So SMB serving all customers smaller than 1000 employees and
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enterprise, the team that I'm serving everybody, everything
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above that. And then we, on top of this,
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have 4 main verticals that we're serving at the moment, which is
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food, logistics, manufacturing as a whole, excluding food and
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the construction industry. And based on the fact that our
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product, in theory, can solve all different problems and use
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cases in these 4 respective industries.
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But they're all so different. Coming to how you actually voice
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the problem, the vocabulary that you use to describe the problem
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and the impact that it has on the perspective business that
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you're talking to was the first thing we started in the food
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industry. And the very fast came to the
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conclusion that the words and the lingo used in food can be
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understood in manufacturing or logistics, but they can't be
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applied one to one just because these businesses function so
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differently. Another thing that I had to
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learn the hard way is most of the stakeholders that I'm
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talking to today are not active for LinkedIn.
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They made a profile back in 2000 when LinkedIn was launched in
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2001 and never opened it, nor have they ever locked in and
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updated their, their, their CV or something like that.
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So it really shapes our go to market motion because we also
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have put leads for every respective article.
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I am the put lead for construction.
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So all the account executives and SDRS working in this
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industry have regular check insurance with me to properly
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educate what's going on in the market.
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Have there been any new rules or regulations from the German
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state that were concluded upon that affect the construction
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industry? Is there anything going on that
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we we can use in our day-to-day meetings with our prospects and
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clients? Is there anything disruptive
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going on right now? Any new, I don't know,
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technology that they might be super hooked on using that I'm
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sharing with the team to always stay top of mind because we are
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well informed and it sometimes also happens that us do instruct
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better informed than the people that we're talking to, which
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should be the industry experts, right?
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And also all of this that I was just sharing directory reflects
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on marketing. We do have an internal marketing
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team and we're also working with a very well known agency in
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Germany for LinkedIn ads and both internal marketing team and
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the agency have regular check insurance with US.
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Pot leads to properly align on the wordings, properly align on
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the visuals, properly align on the lingo that we're using.
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Also the call to actions that we're using and how we also
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present reference stories, for example, just to hook the people
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that we're trying to sell to. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
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And I think that ability to personalize your messaging based
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on the industry or the pain point is really important.
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And, and we see a lot of headaches for organisations who
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may have invested in like an intent capability that says that
10:00
company's in market, but it doesn't give you the why behind
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it, which makes it really difficult.
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And I think that ability to understand, OK, I'm going after
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that construction company. This is the reason why because
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they're showing these signals, they're in market, they're
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already using this technology. I can see they've identified
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that pain allows sales to be really relevant with their
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messaging, but also when marketing reaching out, you
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know, it's too early to give sales that that lead or that
10:27
opportunity. If they've never heard of you as
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a business and never visit your website.
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You've got to do some awareness. So that ability to get real
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insight on is really, really important.
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And when we talk about those different industries, is there
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anything unique about building a strategy for the construction
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industry compared to the other verticals?
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Well, I think it's an unfair advantage that I might have
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being a construction lead because I, as I told you, grew
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up on construction sites. I just know the people that
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we've built the product for. I know the people that have the
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biggest pains because my father and my grandfather used to be
11:03
one of them. So the thing that I find very
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unique for the construction industry is at least in Germany
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now, I've also talked to a few bigger international
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corporations about this already. It's a very familiar industry.
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So everybody's taking care of anybody because you know that
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you're really depending on having your workforce in your
11:27
company because construction is an industry where time matters
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most because you have the very sharp time frame in which you're
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booked to come to a construction site to do the job.
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And then you're one week after that also might be 24 hours that
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you only spend on this very construction site and then
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you're booked to go to another one.
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So whenever something happens, no matter how how harsh the
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incident might be, it always costs you time.
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So that's one thing that you're reliant on is that you have a
12:02
workforce that you can rely on because you know that by doing
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the job that you've booked them to do.
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And especially now with an economy where, at least in
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Germany, I don't know how it is internationally, nobody wants to
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work on construction sites anymore, although it's a very
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well paid job, but nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
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And that also might be a bit of a stigma in our society, I don't
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know. But nobody wants to work there.
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So if you find somebody who's good at doing the job, you want
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to keep them in your workforce as long as you can.
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So it's a very familiar industry.
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On the other hand, the liability is quite high.
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Nobody wants to enter the construction industry as ACEO or
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managing director because as soon as anything happens, you're
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the one that's getting blamed for it and nobody wants that.
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So that's the other thing that's playing in our favor basically,
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because we can talk to these people on a very eye to eye
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level. They're not coming through to
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construction sites and their new Lamborghini.
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They're not wearing their well tailored suits or something.
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They're people that get their hands dirty from time to time,
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people that worry about the the people that work for them and
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people that are dependent on doing a very good job because
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they're building bridges, they're building roads, they're
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they're building buildings. So they have a very high
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responsibility all strictly by still being very down to earth.
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So that's for example, something that we have to keep in mind
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when talking to these people, not to to around any English
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software sales, marketing buzzwords, because they will
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just like look us in the eye and be like, what the freak do you
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mean, man? Just be not be polished, be
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real. And that's very nice as an
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audience because I sold to sales and marketing professionals for
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seven years. And I promise you they will wear
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their well tailored suits and they will come to the on site in
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the Lamborghini. So working with people that I
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don't write this is is a nice is a nice thing now.
14:19
Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting actually
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the whole job situation and not, you know, no desire to work on
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construction sites. I wonder if that will change in
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time because I always talk about AI and we'll come on that a
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little bit later, but AI will never replace a trade, right?
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If you're someone who's able to do something on a building site
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or cut hair or fix plumbing or things like that, AI is not
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going to come and take those jobs.
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So as much as it might replace some of the the sales and
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marketing sides of things and some of those accounting tasks
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that an AI tool could do, they're never going to be able
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to produce AI that will build a road or build a building.
14:58
So maybe that will come back in fashion in future.
15:01
Exactly we're wearing depending on these people.
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So I think it might be a great mindset switch to also, you
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know, just it'd be a bit more intrigued or interested in their
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jobs or also, you know, I don't know, visit conventions or stuff
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because most of these companies now are very digital.
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They're super involved and super open to heavily invest in
15:26
marketing in IT and software just because they know things
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have to change. Yes, the construction industry
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might have been a bit, I don't know, dusty and rusty because
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yeah, the only thing that they can do, the only thing
15:41
exclamation mark is do stuff with their hands.
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And they didn't need software or digital products for very long
15:49
time. But now it's just the younger
15:51
generations coming and they're changing things.
15:54
It's exciting times ahead for this industry.
15:57
So we're seeing a similar thing in manufacturing at the moment
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as well. Yeah, same thing.
16:01
So getting back on topic then, everyone's chasing quick wins
16:03
these days. It's like I'm not going to see a
16:06
return on this and how quickly. So how do you balance short term
16:10
execution with long term growth when you're entering a new
16:13
vertical like you have done? It all comes down to what really
16:17
is a win for a person because being in enterprise sales, a
16:23
short term win might be a customer that close in, I don't
16:26
know, six months instead of 12. But I'd rather try to set mini
16:32
milestones across the way until we're winning the first
16:36
customers and making customers truly happy in their respective
16:39
vertical. And these mini milestones, for
16:42
example, might be, and this is crucial for me, interviews with
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industry experts. For example, the stakeholders
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that we talk to most of the times are either people that
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work in engineering or the head of several construction sites or
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work in work safety or quality management.
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So one thing that I did, I set up interviews with all different
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industry experts holding the respective roles that I just
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mentioned. I invited my team, we concluded
17:14
on a set of questions before, sent them over to the industry
17:17
expert and everybody joined the interview could ask questions.
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Additionally, we recorded the sessions.
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I dumped everything into Notion page afterwards and shared with
17:27
the team again. And this, for example, is a mini
17:30
milestone because you talk to somebody who's open to talk to
17:34
you for 90 minutes. That's worth gold for many, many
17:39
other companies. So you don't have to rely on
17:42
podcasts only or YouTube videos, but you can talk to the people
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that do the job every single day.
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You can ask them honest human questions.
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Another thing might be that once you concluded with the
17:55
interviews and you start doing outreach, you booked a meeting,
17:59
you had a great call with somebody, you had a great demo
18:02
with somebody. You might also have the first
18:06
inbound coming in from a LinkedIn or Google or Meta ad
18:09
campaign that felt like our message resonated with them.
18:14
So it's rather understanding what do I need to do to at the
18:20
very end of the tunnel, the very end of this project and this
18:24
project never ends. What do I have to do?
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What are the tiny little baby steps that I have to that I have
18:30
to tackle to truly understand my vertical?
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And having these interviews, for example, or having a good demo
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is in my opinion, more valuable than booking a client close.
18:41
Setting a client on close one after three months, for example,
18:45
this also happens. And that's a great milestone to
18:47
achieve, but it's not. I'm torn between efficient and
18:53
effective because I'm more focused on building a solid
18:57
groundwork and then reaching for these quick wins that most of
19:01
the times at the very end just demotivate the team if you can't
19:06
reach this milestone. Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
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So when you think about the things that you've tried over
19:12
the years, what frameworks or processes do you think of being
19:17
most effective when you're creating your GTM strategies?
19:20
I would say it depends on the vertical to be very frank,
19:26
because when I did this whole go to market sales and marketing
19:31
development thing at Echo Watts, I was selling a digital product
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to a normally very digitalized persona.
19:41
It was an SLG motion heavily influenced by marketing, but the
19:44
customers were well informed about their problem.
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All of these things don't apply to my new target group.
19:51
So the frameworks that we use to be honest for Echo, but I can't
19:56
remember it was the same strategy as I just pointed it
20:00
out. So if first interviews with.
20:03
With industry experts at Echo, what I first did the fintech
20:05
industry and I think I had calls with 10 people working in the
20:09
industry to properly understand their problems, their markets,
20:12
the regulations and everything. Things that kept them up at
20:15
night, not because they might influence my sales process, but
20:18
just to, you know, also talk to the people on either eye level.
20:22
Now for to instruct. It's more attending events, for
20:27
example, that the customers are attending, not to sell to them,
20:30
but to just to talk to them, to set up chats with them to
20:35
connect on LinkedIn, to connect and sing on Facebook.
20:39
So another thing very important, know where your audience truly
20:43
is. It doesn't make any sense to
20:45
heavily invest on LinkedIn ads for construction just because
20:48
the persona that we're trying to reach is not active on LinkedIn.
20:51
They don't. I think they don't even know
20:53
LinkedIn. So you have to use Google Meta
20:58
for example, and maybe Sing Sing.
21:01
Is that like the German LinkedIn?
21:03
That might be a thing for them as well.
21:05
But it's at first learn the lingo, learn the problems, learn
21:10
to think like your prospects, and then know the channels that
21:17
are active in and on the channels that they use to take
21:22
information. And coming down to the very
21:26
question, what do I want to focus on?
21:29
And this can be data-driven. If you're entering a whole new
21:33
market, you have to rely on external reports.
21:37
But also that is something that you can ask industry experts,
21:41
agency owners, people who work at PR, people who work in
21:45
marketing, for example, for these clients to pick their
21:48
brain on it. Yeah, I'm assuming it's the same
21:51
in Germany as it is here in the UK.
21:53
But trade shows and that all stopped when COVID happened.
21:56
And it's taken a while, but I think we're we're pretty much
21:59
back to, you know, there's a, there's a whole stream of events
22:02
and trade shows now. So I think we're back, back as
22:05
we were in the olden days. Yeah.
22:07
Maybe one question regarding this for you, because I feel
22:12
like now these trade shows are more coming back together,
22:16
meeting up after X years then people really being open to
22:21
being sold to, you know what I mean?
22:23
Nobody wants a salesperson at one of these trade shows, do
22:26
they? That's exactly right.
22:27
And I think initially it was just, I just want to get out and
22:30
see people again and and have conversations.
22:33
I think it's starting to go back to how it was.
22:35
But definitely I mean, we, we go to a number of shows where we're
22:39
not aggressively out there selling to people, but we're
22:42
answering their questions and and we find that people come to
22:46
us as they realize we're not going to give them the hard
22:48
sells. I think that really, that is a
22:49
really fair comment, but it's definitely getting back.
22:52
And we find a lot of the smaller events, we do lots of breakfast
22:56
briefings and and things like that rather than full on trade
23:00
shows. And, and they're really
23:01
effective because you get 1520 people in the room.
23:04
They're much more open to having conversations.
23:06
If there's 100 people in the room, it's easy for them to just
23:09
sit there quietly and hideaway. So, yeah, definitely think
23:12
that's the case. Again, you can tell me if it's
23:15
different in construction, but every conversation I have, one
23:18
of the things is there's a search for that Nirvana that
23:22
sells a marketing alignment. Is that something new you see in
23:26
construction? And is it, you know, how do you
23:29
ensure that that alignment works?
23:31
I don't think that it's necessarily a problem that you
23:34
have that's industry specific, but I think it's more an overall
23:39
problem that marketing and sales teams have in general.
23:43
And when I remember back at the days selling to sales and
23:47
marketing professionals at echo board and deal front, it most of
23:50
the times happened that I talked to sales and marketing at the
23:54
same company at the same time during the exact same meetings
23:59
with the same stakeholders, just in different departments.
24:02
And they had one meeting that they attended at the same time,
24:06
which most of the time was the meeting where we concluded on
24:10
the offer. So it's a general thing that
24:13
companies and I also think it's prospective professionals think
24:18
that sales and marketing are two divided silos and they aren't.
24:23
They are both super important for every go to market motion
24:27
for every revenue organization including customer success as
24:31
well and all the other roles like Rev OPS and sales OPS and
24:35
sales engineering and pre sales and everything.
24:37
They all have to work together like a well working machine.
24:44
And I'm also having a hard time understanding where this comes
24:48
from. I think it just is because sales
24:51
was that like since the Middle Ages?
24:55
People sold stuff in the Middle Ages already.
24:58
No matter if it was horses or bread or shoes or anything.
25:01
But they sold stuff. And then in the 1800s, PR
25:06
developed itself as a department because of course, you had to,
25:13
you know, organize interviews and stuff and just keep track of
25:16
what that company was perceived as in the media.
25:20
And then in the 40s, this new kid on the block came up called
25:24
marketing and they found themselves in between PR and
25:29
sales and nobody wanted to be responsible for them.
25:32
And I don't know why, but we still to this very day, very
25:35
many companies didn't solve this problem of nobody is responsible
25:40
for marketing. We just have to work with each
25:43
other because if we don't and if we can't properly align on
25:46
things, marketing will send over leads to sales that we can't
25:51
convert. We're only ramping about
25:54
marketing. Marketing is like, well, sales
25:56
and then just tell me what to do.
25:58
But sales can't tell them what to do differently because most
26:02
of the times sales people also don't know whom they're selling
26:06
to and why they're selling to them.
26:09
They're just selling to them because it works, because they
26:12
stayed so persistent that at the end of the day they closed a
26:14
couple of deals and nobody knows why.
26:18
So I think it's a general problem and I don't think that
26:21
it's a specific problem for every industry, but I have to
26:25
say that especially in software sales or in the IT software
26:29
space, the gap between sales and marketing is quite a lot bigger
26:33
than in all the other industries.
26:35
Yeah, it's interesting because everything demand based does is
26:38
around ensuring that AB2B business spends all their time,
26:42
budget and resource only on companies that they can actually
26:46
sell to and want to sell to. They can deliver real value and
26:50
that's sales and marketing. So whether we're talking to a
26:52
sales leader or a marketing leader, are you getting your
26:55
pipeline full of opportunities you can't close to your point.
26:59
And if the answer is yes, that's because marketing are focusing
27:02
on different things to sales and aligning those two is critical
27:06
to ensure success going forward. So I think you're right.
27:09
I don't think it's a vertical thing at all.
27:10
I think it's just the nature of B to B.
27:13
There are companies you can sell to and there are companies you
27:15
can't sell to. So just focus on the ones you
27:18
can. It sort of makes sense, doesn't
27:19
it? But it's it's not as as we say.
27:22
I think it was the head of SDR at dear front stewards, a very
27:28
candid former colleague that has a very special place in my
27:31
heart. Also a bridge, of course.
27:34
He once told me my team is your service provider.
27:38
I was an AE and that stuck with me because yes, of course
27:42
marketing is a service provider for sales, but sales is the
27:45
same. In return to marketing, we have
27:47
to educate marketing that they can do what they're in best like
27:52
setting up campaigns, driving attention making do instruct.
27:58
In my case now being stuck with OK, I have a problem with
28:02
properly training my blue collar workers.
28:04
I might reach out to do instruct because they have a solution for
28:08
this very problem and I think if we were starting to look at each
28:13
other as internal service providers that we have to
28:17
properly educate on our problem or on the thing that we want
28:21
them to solve for us, things might get a lot easier.
28:25
Agreed, agreed. So we've got you know, if, if
28:29
there's any new projects that go on, there's always lots of focus
28:31
on that from from above. So what are the early indicators
28:35
you think that should be watched for when we're measuring
28:38
success, when we're executing that that new GTM strategy from
28:42
the beginning? I think this also has to be
28:46
looked at from different perspectives.
28:50
On one hand, of course, you have the marketing perspective and it
28:54
always depends on what type of marketing you're looking at.
28:57
Are you looking at, I don't know, sign ups for webinar?
29:00
Fairly easy. Are you looking at impressions
29:04
for your ads? Only the impressions or the hits
29:08
of your SEOSEA campaigns? Fairly easy because this can all
29:13
just be drawn by setting up dashboards or drawing numbers
29:16
from anywhere. If it's more of an awareness
29:19
campaign, I think this is the first thing where sales and
29:22
marketing need to be talking to each other and working together.
29:26
Because for example, you can sort of an awareness marketing
29:29
campaign on Google Ads and LinkedIn ads one month in
29:32
advance of the SDRS, for example, starting doing outreach
29:36
to the specific industry. Best case scenario to a set of
29:40
500 named accounts that you one month prior to starting doing
29:45
outreach put into this account based marketing on Google and
29:49
LinkedIn, for example. Then you can let the SDRS for
29:52
example, start the pitch with I imagine you already heard of do
29:56
instruct, didn't you? Most of them will say yes, on
29:59
the one hand because they don't want to feel like they're not
30:02
well informed, but on the other hand because the percentage of
30:06
them already having seen our name, our logo and at visual or
30:10
something like that is quite high on sales.
30:13
On the other hand, it might be the conversion rate from meeting
30:18
booked. So sales acceptedly, for
30:20
example, to the meeting actually was worth it.
30:24
We can actually solve this pain of the customer once a seller
30:27
talked to them. So sales qualified is this sales
30:30
qualified pipeline. And then I might say in the very
30:33
beginning, you have to use the conversion numbers that you
30:39
already have from other verticals where you're
30:41
successful in and then over time try to adapt them on the
30:46
vertical that you're trying to tackle.
30:48
Right now. The most important thing that I
30:51
can tell everybody is be flexible when it comes to time
30:55
frames because most of the times you start and you're like, well,
31:00
we will be done by that. With this by the end of this
31:04
quarter, remaining 12 weeks turns out just triple this time
31:09
frame and you will not be even done with half of the work that
31:13
you initially planned on doing because it always takes more
31:18
time. And most of the times along the
31:22
way, you see so many blind spots that you didn't look at or that
31:28
you didn't keep in mind in the, in the very beginning, for
31:31
example, what you just mentioned, all these smaller
31:34
events. Of course, it's easy to find the
31:36
top 10 trade fairs or trade shows in Europe for the
31:40
construction industry. That's fairly easy.
31:42
It's just a 5 minute Google search.
31:44
But if you want to dive deeper into it, are there any smaller
31:48
conferences, these breakfasts? Is there any super high
31:52
exclusive stakeholder CEO meet up?
31:56
This is the room that you have have to get into to have these
32:00
great conversations with people that you in the very end want to
32:04
sell to. But these are also the
32:06
conversations that you learned from the most.
32:09
So how do you get into these circles?
32:12
You don't just simply buy a ticket.
32:13
You have to apply. You have to book marketing or
32:16
partnership budget on that might be the case that you have to
32:20
step in any kind of super exclusive club or something.
32:24
So be flexible when it comes to time because you will always
32:29
need more of that than initially planned.
32:31
Great point and also time be realistic as well.
32:34
If your typical sales cycle is 12 months, don't suddenly think
32:38
by implementing a new strategy you're going to close deals in a
32:42
month. It doesn't work like that.
32:43
And it's, and it's also we hear a lot around I just want to fill
32:47
my pipeline with more leads. No, you don't.
32:49
You want to fill it with conversions.
32:50
You want it quality, not quantity.
32:52
And I think that's that's something that that is sometimes
32:55
difficult for someone who says, right, I'll invest in this
32:58
strategy or this product, whatever it may be, but I need
33:01
instant wins. It's having that realism that
33:04
it'll take time, but over time it'll be well worth the
33:07
investment. So on that, you've got listeners
33:09
who may be tackling a project for the first time, they're
33:13
going to start working on this strategy.
33:15
What would you say is the very first step you'd recommend as
33:18
they'd start building out their go to market strategy?
33:21
Well, I think it depends on do you already have a product that
33:25
works that has proven itself for example, like it to instructing
33:29
the food industry, right. You have you 1st 200 customers,
33:32
they're happy. Net retention is 99%.
33:35
I don't know. Great.
33:36
So you're not dependent on having this project succeed.
33:40
Of course you want to do succeed, but even if it doesn't,
33:43
it's a learning at the very end, but still.
33:45
So do you have a product that works?
33:48
If yes, great. If no, please do your research
33:53
set up. I wouldn't even say that 20
33:56
interviews. I know I'd say 50 or more with
33:59
the people that you're trying to build your product for, because
34:03
if you don't know the problems, the life, the day-to-day work,
34:08
the things that they have on their plate, in theory, how
34:11
should you bring any value to them in reality?
34:16
Won't work. Let's just stick with a scenario
34:19
that I have a product that already works.
34:21
So what I would try to do is build a list what works best for
34:27
the existing customers and what are the points where they might
34:31
criticize me the most as is just because I might just have a
34:34
product that's still in development.
34:36
Then I might look at the numbers of the general economy, select
34:43
an industry like construction, right?
34:46
Well before I even start to talking to the people asking the
34:49
may, what's your problem today? I might just sit down with the
34:53
product team and be like, I'm thinking of tackling this new
34:57
vertical X. We might have to make some
35:00
adaptations to serve a new vertical, to serve a new
35:05
industry. Is this even possible?
35:07
If they say yes, right? If they say no, well, you've got
35:10
a problem. Once you're aligned with
35:12
products that your product might also be able to serve this new
35:17
set of clients. You just simply reach out to the
35:21
people, be like, hey, it's Karina from do Instruct.
35:24
We're currently thinking of stepping foot into the
35:28
construction industry. I'm not trying to sell you
35:30
anything. I just want to understand what
35:33
your day-to-day business looks like, the problems that you're
35:37
having at this very moment, the things that you would wish you
35:41
had more time for, the things that drain the energy out of
35:45
you. I just want to have an eye to
35:46
eye talk and I just want to understand you and your
35:50
workplace way better. So you start reaching out to
35:54
industry experts. They don't have to be super
35:56
shiny magazine cover stars. They just have to be people that
36:01
you assume and you will get better.
36:04
Assuming this over time, might be the people that also can give
36:08
you intros to interesting clubs, interesting companies that have
36:12
a great network in the industry that you're that, yeah, that you
36:16
want to step foot into. And then you educate yourself on
36:21
how does a company in this vertical normally function?
36:26
What are the hierarchies? What might the problems be that
36:30
the respective roles and the different hierarchies are
36:34
tackling? What might be the background of
36:36
these people? So you do a typical persona
36:39
analysis, but for all the different personas that might be
36:43
invested or affected by your process, by your product, by the
36:48
thing you're trying to solve. And The thing is, you don't have
36:51
to invest your own time and resource 200% of this.
36:57
You can just give Chachi, PT, Perplexity or any other AI tool
37:03
and knowledge database on the things that you already know,
37:07
including conversion rates, everything else, everything that
37:11
you know to date and ask the AI that you've chosen to apply this
37:17
on this respective industry that you're trying to set foot into.
37:23
Challenge the AI, challenge yourself.
37:26
Maybe also talk to a colleague and be like, hey, you know, I'm
37:29
working on this at the moment. Do you have 5 minutes?
37:31
Just I don't know if I'm off here or if that's still the
37:34
right track that I'm on to to at the very end.
37:38
Just start at one point by educating yourself and educating
37:43
yourself even further by talking to the people that you in the
37:46
very end want to sell to or want to set up ads campaigns for.
37:51
And then take the process that you already have that has proven
37:56
itself as your product and try to apply it onto this new
38:00
vertical. You will have to make
38:03
adjustments. I can promise you this and you
38:06
will also have to make adjustments that you didn't see
38:08
coming, but it will be worth it at the end because either you
38:13
have a new vertical that's open to working with you and who are
38:16
super excited to know you as a new market player.
38:21
Then also the competition that is super important as well.
38:25
Or you learned after three months and we already had this
38:28
experience this year, that this is a vertical that you shouldn't
38:32
be focusing on, so you save your employer a ton of resources.
38:37
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I think as we discussed
38:39
earlier, going after the wrong things doesn't make any sense.
38:43
It just wastes time, budget and resource.
38:45
So having that understanding is really important.
38:47
You mentioned AI in that and AI as you know is, is the big topic
38:51
at the moment. So from your perspective, how do
38:54
you see AI changing, I suppose go to market strategies and also
38:58
interestingly that the construction industry as a
39:01
whole? Well, I think that it will cut
39:03
down preparation time depending on how good you are handling AI
39:09
by 70% at least. The thing is, it's just an
39:12
artificial intelligence so you should always have the human
39:17
factor play into it, especially as a German.
39:20
That's very important because most of these AI models are
39:23
based on American or British etiquette, which is very
39:29
different from how we do business in Germany.
39:32
For example, Americans love small talk, Germans hate small
39:36
talk. Germans tend to be very blunt
39:40
and honest. Brits are also very honest, but
39:44
they are far less blunt than Germans are, especially in
39:47
business. So you always have to challenge
39:50
the AI by just reading things through that the AI presents to
39:54
you and be like, well, it's the can this even be real?
39:57
But if you know how to work with this technology properly, you
40:01
can be so, so much time ahead of your competition because you can
40:06
just replicate things that work already and put your hands on
40:11
things that might need some adjustment.
40:13
Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a
40:14
blind faith in AI at the moment. And we hear it from loads of
40:19
sales leaders that they invest in a product.
40:21
That product is telling their sales to people to go and do
40:25
this and go and do that. And there's never any reasoning
40:28
behind it. So as a sales person, you get go
40:31
after that company because we say so and you reach out to that
40:34
company, you find out actually they're not even in market.
40:36
Maybe they unsubscribe from an e-mail.
40:39
I don't know why that would be seen as a buying signal, but so
40:41
I termed the phrase demand basis AI with the Y.
40:45
So we don't just tell you to go after that.
40:47
You get the understanding of why.
40:49
Where are they in your bio journey?
40:51
A thing at the moment that seems to be going around and maybe
40:53
it's it's not a Germany thing, it's auk thing, but sales people
40:57
are starting to lose confidence in AI because it's sending them
41:00
off on so many wild goose chases.
41:02
So the AI obviously is here to stay and it's a big benefit for
41:06
increasing productivity and all that sort of stuff.
41:09
But I think you need to have the insight as to why that AI signal
41:13
is being delivered to you. Otherwise, we're going to lose a
41:16
lot of confidence in it. Well 100% agree on what you just
41:20
said. I think it's similar in Germany,
41:24
but I wouldn't hold the AI accountable for that because the
41:28
AI is only as well informed as the database that it's working
41:32
on. So if I want another result from
41:35
my AI that I'm working with, it's on my plate to specify what
41:40
I need. You have to be as precise as you
41:43
can to get the results that you want.
41:47
And of course, it takes some time to properly train the AI to
41:51
deliver the results that you that you're looking for.
41:55
But if you did that, and if you went the extra mile in the very
41:58
beginning, it will save you tons of time throughout the rest of
42:02
the process. So plus it sharpens your
42:04
communication skills. If you never fought with an AI,
42:07
do you even really use AI? So yeah, I'd always tell the
42:14
seller, well, you might need to specify because just the prompts
42:19
give me some leads that might be interested in my product.
42:21
Well, you wouldn't even talk to your SDR that way.
42:24
Plus, most of the sales people that are using AI today already
42:28
worked without AI five years ago, so you might just go back
42:34
to the roots and apply some of the knowledge that you obtained
42:37
back in 2019 adjusted to 2025. Give it to your AI, spend a day
42:44
or two and be happy with the results.
42:46
Yeah, absolutely. So just changing tack because
42:49
that's a really interesting conversation.
42:50
You sound like someone who consumes lots of content.
42:53
So is there a book or a blog, maybe a newsletter or podcast
42:59
you'd recommend to our listeners?
43:01
Well, yeah, I think they are few, but none of them focus on
43:04
how to properly train AI models because this is what I do all my
43:08
all my working day. So 11 of relax, maybe in the
43:12
very evening. The book that really stuck with
43:14
me. I have as an on blinkers.
43:17
I listen to the audio book I think at least once a year is
43:20
tell me as if I was 5 because I really like that challenge of
43:24
saying things as as easy and as broken down as if my 5 year old
43:29
nephew could understand them. And a podcast that I really
43:34
like, an English podcast, is business movers by wondering
43:39
because it sheds some light on why people started their
43:44
companies. What was the driver behind the
43:47
idea of the new recipe at Coca-Cola?
43:51
Or why did Disney really want to, you know, found Disney?
43:55
So it's like Simon Sinek started why, but for businesses.
43:59
And I I love that. Awesome.
44:01
I'll be checking both of those out.
44:03
Thank you. You've been an awesome guest,
44:05
Carolina. I'm sure there's room for a
44:08
follow up session, so we'll dig into that.
44:10
But right now, a cheeky ask if I can, would you share the names
44:14
of a couple of inspirational people in the space that you
44:16
recommend we should also invite on the show?
44:19
Of course, at first there should be my very good friend Mattia
44:23
Sharper, because I know nobody in at least Europe who knows
44:29
more about building a proper community than she did.
44:32
It should be Anand Ruktane, who is a very well known sales
44:37
expert who has a very similar take on mine when it comes to
44:42
collaboration between sales and marketing, and Jan Benedict
44:47
Mundorf from Pleo, because there's nobody who's mastered
44:52
building meaningful relationships that I know.
44:55
Then my friend, yeah. Awesome.
44:57
Thank you for those recommendations.
44:58
I'm pretty sure we haven't had any of them on the show yet, so
45:02
we will. We'll certainly be working to to
45:04
get them as future guests. And I imagine based on the
45:08
listeners hearing all the conversation today, there's lots
45:11
of people who want to get in touch with you to ask other
45:14
questions. What's the best way for them to
45:16
do so? The best way would be my
45:18
LinkedIn profile. It's Carolina Boehninger.
45:22
We might be able to put my LinkedIn handle to to the show
45:26
notes because I have a German last name.
45:29
So yeah, that would be it. Awesome, we'll do that.
45:31
And by the way, you did that whole session not in your
45:34
traditional language. You did it all in English and he
45:37
did it fantastically. So very well done for that.
45:40
It's been a great session, Carolina.
45:42
I really enjoyed it. I hope everyone listening's
45:44
enjoyed the episode as well. And don't forget, there's over
45:47
500 other episodes in the series, so make sure you check
45:50
them out for now. Thanks very much for listening.
45:52
And until next time, Cheerio. Thanks for joining us for On
45:57
Base. If you enjoyed this episode,
45:59
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