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How Do You Grow a Clinic When Nobody Knows Who You Are? The Power of Relationship Marketing · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: Welcome to another episode of the No Appointment Necessary podcast.
• 0:04
  Michael: I normally screw that bit up.
• 0:05
  Michael: That's the first time I've ever got it right.
• 0:07
  Michael: And today we have our first chiropractor on the show, which is super, super interesting.
• 0:13
  Michael: Um and we're gonna get into it.
• 0:15
  Michael: We've got Josh Newsom from Ancoats Chiropractic, and we're gonna talk all things chiropractic, but also as a relatively young, well not relatively, definitely young chiropractor and a relatively new business owner.
• 0:28
  Michael: I think we can really explore some of those topics, especially from chiropractic side.
• 0:32
  Michael: I think all of this always carries across to any MSK clinic.
• 0:35
  Michael: Um so welcome, Josh.
• 0:37
  Michael: Give us a quick bit of background on who you are.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you, Michael, for having me on.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've been practicing three years.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I studied at ACC in Bournemouth and straight after moved to Manchester and yeah, own Ancoach Chiropractic Clinic.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's been two years in November, we would have been open and initially worked for clinic for six months, and then after decided probably slightly stupidly, I could try and go on my own.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and slowly built up to where we are today.
• 1:12
  Michael: Let's start with that because it's fascinating.
• 1:15
  Michael: If you think about the fact that you qualified as a it doesn't matter what profession, as a profession, you could be a lawyer, right?
• 1:21
  Michael: You could be anything.
• 1:22
  Michael: Uh you qualify, you started qualified three years ago and you started your business two years ago.
• 1:27
  Michael: That's insane.
• 1:28
  Michael: Like no one does that, but they're doing chiropractic, and I'd love to know why you think that is.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a good question.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Chiropractic, I think it could it'd be it could be so different in different clinics.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: The clinic I practiced at and the structure and the framework which I had to practice in for me just didn't quite fit how I wanted to practice and the framework which I wanted to practice in.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, you know what, if uh I'm just gonna try and make that myself and make that framework work myself.
• 1:58
  Michael: But that that in itself, that in itself is an interesting thought because or an interesting process, because most people go, I hate my first job, I'm gonna go and get another job that I do like.
• 2:08
  Michael: Whereas you went from I don't like this, I'm gonna create it for myself.
• 2:12
  Michael: And and I guess that points to a bit of entrepreneurialism, which you see a lot of in the chiropractic industry, in a lot of chiropractors.
• 2:19
  Michael: It's very rare you see that with physios.
• 2:22
  Michael: And I I just I'm really interested why we see that.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess I guess there can be a little bit of this um maybe a sort of confidence.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I felt quite confident in my six months.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I my skills definitely didn't match my confidence.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was definitely too much ego at this point.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know what, I I really believe I can do it myself.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think you might see it a bit more in chiropractic.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly, I don't know, and different I have to look at the data.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of especially how people practice, sometimes the appointments can be a little bit shorter.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they might get in more new patients for certain things, so maybe they feel a bit more confident that they're able to set up and it might be slightly easier to do it.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Under that framework, there may be a different framework, I don't know.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think as well, a lot of clinics people that go to study chiropractic, their parents and things like this may have clinics that they might think, I can open up a clinic as well.
• 3:10
  Michael: Yeah, that's true.
• 3:11
  Michael: I mean, we get a lot of people often thrown at us by uh a mutual uh person, Rob Bevan, who uh I think because he tutors, right?
• 3:19
  Michael: So I think we get a lot of people from him, but just in general, we get a lot of very young chiropractors who who come to talk to us and it always fascinates me because you don't, as I say, you don't get the same thing in physio.
• 3:28
  Michael: I do wonder whether you get a little bit more business training in chiropractor college, but even if you do, it isn't enough, I think, to you know, you can do a three-year marketing degree or a business degree, you're still not competent enough to be a business owner.
• 3:40
  Michael: Um, but maybe that that gives you a little bit more confidence as well.
• 3:44
  Michael: Um yeah, so that's the first interesting thing.
• 3:46
  Michael: And uh it's worth saying at this point as well, you're not a d uh you're not a dodgy chiropractor, right?
• 3:51
  Michael: You're not waving your arms above people and doing energy stuff and and and curing their inner energies or anything like that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, nothing like this.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think um yeah, chiropractic is changed a lot over time, but we we stick to um more on the evidence side basis of chiropractic.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um we do adjustments and we think they really help.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um we think they really help in terms of maybe creating a bit of anti-inflation, anti-inflammation, a bit of no-seception are equally, if not more important for all of our patients as well.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we're trying to have a structured framework and based on evidence which can hopefully get our patients to where they want to be.
• 4:30
  Michael: Well, with Rob Beverlin as your tutor, I I don't imagine you can do any crazy shit.
• 4:34
  Michael: I think you probably get a bit of a slap.
• 4:37
  Michael: So love.
• 4:38
  Michael: Um and I will be getting him on the podcast.
• 4:40
  Michael: So if anyone hasn't ever come across uh a guy called Aaron Kubal, he's a he's a chiropractor by trade, but it has a great TikTok, just search him up.
• 4:50
  Michael: Definitely worth looking at it and looking at what he does because he's hilarious, even if you may disagree with what he says.
• 4:56
  Michael: But one of the things that I think is is is interesting is today you have a lot of people like you who come out of chiropractic college, and it would be very easy to go into the practice.
• 5:08
  Michael: Now I imagine this was the practice that you had, which was the five-minute appointment, the x-ray, the report findings, you're dying, you need 25 sessions, otherwise your legs are gonna get even worse in terms of difference in length and all that sort of nonsense.
• 5:23
  Michael: It's very easy to do that because essentially that's where the money has always been.
• 5:27
  Michael: But you're getting more or fewer and fewer of the younger chiropractors doing that.
• 5:31
  Michael: They are much more evidence-based.
• 5:33
  Michael: What do you think to that?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that has a lot to do with universities and where they go to study chiropractic.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ACC, I mean it's now changed to Health Sciences University.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's come a long way in terms of educating the chiropractor in terms of what they can do, things, how to monitor a patient, maintenance plans, things like this.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think now a lot of the chiropractors coming out are more aware of what they should do and what they shouldn't do.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really good change.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think, um, obviously.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you tend to see it more, at least in my perspective, more in the older population, some of the older clinics that have maybe been around a lot longer, that tend to go from more this direction that you said before.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: That was actually one of the first clinics I worked for was more towards the direction you said initially.
• 6:22
  Michael: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So they had x-rays there, the appointments were really short, big plans.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter what the patient comes on with, it could be pain in their thumb or uh yeah, they could have an ACL tear and they're just gonna do adjustments for 24 sessions, things like this.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it's really good that chiropractors moving away from that.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it will create a better brand representation as well, and just allow all of our different specialities in muscular skeletal care to hopefully work more cohesively.
• 6:51
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, I I agree, it's definitely a good thing.
• 6:53
  Michael: And and also it leads to chiropractors like you who are actually doing both upper and lower limb, and your background is sports, and you you know, so you you are you're more of a rehab person than than a cracky backy person, right?
• 7:07
  Michael: And and I think that you see that again with more of the sort of younger clinics, and not just I don't want to say it's just younger clinics, but you certainly see it a lot more now where people are doing upper and lower limb, and they are doing the whole heat rehab piece, not just I only deal with headaches, backs, and sciatica.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think first when we first started, um, because I guess you want everyone walking through your door, a lovely world would be to just focus on really cool cases of upper and lower limb and really interesting rehab plans and telling them to individuals.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: We had to go through, and we still are, I guess, sort of trying to get everyone as possible walking in through our door.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you get a lot more satisfaction.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there's more of an I would say an educated eye and more knowledge when it comes to these upper and lower limb cases where you're able to actually look at data and say, okay, we've got to do this program and then move on to the next step.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, rather than sometimes with the adjustments.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually interested in just in uh I was doing a seminar on adjustments, um, and I remember went there and I really focused in on just it was just adjustments, they're just learning that.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, okay, you know, I'll try it for a day, let's see what I can learn.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I see that's they feel it's a lot more of an art form, and they uh chatting to some of the chiropractors there, and uh yeah, it was in Europe, so obviously it's a bit different.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Their belief was I actually remember asking a guy if he had a patient that came in with a a torn ACL.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Surely you wouldn't just adjust him.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he said something like, No, I would say just as pelvis, and then go into the left ankle.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just shaking my head thinking, yeah, I understand why this profession is is so hated, to be honest.
• 8:43
  Michael: Yeah, and we'll get into that because I think it's a really important point.
• 8:47
  Michael: But also, I think we're now in a world where I think the kids, and I see this with my own kids, they seem to be better critical thinkers than maybe the generation or two ahead of them.
• 9:00
  Michael: And when you add that to the rise of ChatGPT and other AI, you know, you put into ChatGPT, should I go and see a chiropractor for this?
• 9:08
  Michael: And it generally says no.
• 9:09
  Michael: Go and see someone who actually knows what we're talking about.
• 9:11
  Michael: But also when you say my chiropractor tells me I need 25 appointments for this particular thing, GPT will say no, right?
• 9:20
  Michael: And it's almost it it it's it's really in fact we've seen this by the way, we've seen chiropractic numbers, you know, six six years ago it was easy.
• 9:28
  Michael: It was really, really easy.
• 9:29
  Michael: Now it is way, way harder.
• 9:31
  Michael: And I put a lot of that down to patients becoming more educated, but also the way that the chiropractic industry has portrayed itself over the last five to ten years, especially in their marketing techniques and and so on and so forth.
• 9:46
  Michael: And I think it's really damaged the industry, actually.
• 9:48
  Michael: And we'll we'll go into that a little bit in a second.
• 9:51
  Michael: It in in terms of in terms of I will say when you're in new business, you take on every everyone, right?
• 9:56
  Michael: That's that's the that's a given.
• 9:58
  Michael: You have to, and you know, you've got to make money and you've got to keep the the lights on.
• 10:02
  Michael: But I'm interested in your experience of getting a patient in who absolutely just wants an adjustment to you know do X and your process of of educating them and moving them across.
• 10:14
  Michael: I'm interested in what that looks like and then how successful that is.
• 10:17
  Michael: Because it's not gonna be 100% successful.
• 10:19
  Michael: Um we have chiropractors, we don't do Facebook ads for chiropractors generally.
• 10:23
  Michael: We still have chiropractors that absolutely demand it, and sometimes you just go, okay, if that's what you want, you know.
• 10:28
  Michael: It's no different to a physio knowing that massage isn't gonna necessarily help a condition, but they're like, okay, if they really want it, I'll do it, I'll just inform them that this isn't curing anything.
• 10:39
  Michael: So, what's that process like for you?
• 10:40
  Michael: Do you get it a lot?
• 10:41
  Michael: What's that process like and what's your success rate?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do get that quite a lot.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, our process with patients like this, first we we always try to find out what is it they actually want.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: They might come in and say, Oh, I just feel like the need is cracked.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the underlying reason for it is because they have pain in their lower back and it's stopping them from doing certain things.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we always try to pry those out a little bit more and go into the deeper reasonings.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Usually from that, we're able to build up um more awareness and say, well, we can adjust, and you know, this may help in terms of some pain relief for us to make sure this isn't an ongoing issue and something that's just gonna keep coming back in your reliance on adjustments to constantly get it going.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we'll also need to work on rehab and other different areas that are specific to the patient.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Usually, most of the time, when we talk through a lot of that, sometimes the patient will still go, Well, I just feel like I need this move there.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And in the past, I've tried to explain what adjustments are and going quite deep into the detail and saying, Oh, we're not actually doing this, and going into the biochemistry and saying this is actually what we get, and the evidence shows this.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And after I've asked the patient, do you know what an adjustment does?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, Oh, you're just moving that.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Okay, great, I should probably save myself the energy of this.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess over time I've come a little bit less reluctant to explain as much.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's okay when you see a dentist and you get a feeling, they're not going to be explaining, oh, we're doing this and doing that, and everything like this.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I've sort of lessened a little bit on that.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I think as long as they're informed, we tell them what's likely to happen and their expectations are clear.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: They can make the judgment call themselves if that's what they really want.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, uh here to provide and it's business, and we'll happily take them.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of success rate, especially for the patients that just rely on the adjustments, yeah, it can be quite uh an ongoing thing where things every time you see them, sometimes a little bit better, sometimes a little bit worse.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's not really a nice progression of overload and structures and things like this.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Their posture tends to get a bit better, I would say, through habits.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: But in our clinic, we really try to um go a lot into the lifestyle of patients and things like this.
• 12:51
  Michael: But but what I mean by success rate, I mean success rate in terms of taking me who just wants adjustments to cure everything, into a rehab position um on a rehab pathway with you.
• 13:02
  Michael: Like, are you able what percentage of people can you convince and educate and move across to a different that's quite low to be honest.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So um off the top of my head, I'd have to look.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Probably around maybe 40%, I would say.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Patients that have confidence reason.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Michael: I think that's that's I think that's quite a success actually.
• 13:24
  Michael: Because when someone wants that, it's very difficult to talk them out of it because they uh often it's a a belief system, right?
• 13:31
  Michael: And and and also I guess, especially if they've had chiractic for many years, it's very difficult to say, so I've spent 15 grand on bullshit and now this is the right way.
• 13:42
  Michael: I you know, you that's tough, right?
• 13:44
  Michael: It it's it's it's so different to the marketing agency that says you should do this and you pay five grand a month, it's very difficult after 12 months to go, oh, that must all be wrong.
• 13:52
  Michael: You almost buy into it more because you're you you don't want to think of yourself as being an idiot.
• 13:56
  Michael: So I think 40% is pretty decent, actually.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's true, especially the patients that have seen a car factor before.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you get some I I had a case the other day and uh she came in and it's like, oh, just uh it's like when this when this moves here, everything goes and it feels so much better.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels like almost did nothing with the movement, and it must have been maybe a lot of placebo, a lot in the head, and straight off she's asked, yeah, that's so much better, thank you so much.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm happy with that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, she just wanted to go out of the room after and she'll come back when it comes back again, something like this.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's quite hard to actually educate them to get them through that route.
• 14:31
  Michael: Yeah, but you know what?
• 14:32
  Michael: I I I go for a massage and I've got um this recurring hip thing, it's annoying me.
• 14:38
  Michael: Now I know exactly what it is.
• 14:40
  Michael: I know enough people, right?
• 14:41
  Michael: I know exactly what it is, and I know the kind of rehab I should be doing if I had the bloody time.
• 14:46
  Michael: But I still go and see the massage person and I still get her to press in the place that makes me feel a little better, even though I know it's doing nothing.
• 14:53
  Michael: And she's actually quite clinical, and she's like, Michael, you realise this is doing nothing.
• 14:57
  Michael: I'm like, yeah, I know, but it's nice.
• 14:59
  Michael: And she's like, Alright.
• 15:00
  Michael: So I you know, even even people who do understand that are like, well, maybe I you know and and so if you don't understand it, you're even more prone to just going, just yeah, press this thing in my neck to cure my I mean, it's how reflexologists work, right?
• 15:13
  Michael: Press my toe and you know, cure my cancer or whatever.
• 15:16
  Michael: So historically any reflexologists out there.
• 15:19
  Michael: I went out with a reflexologist and she was hilarious.
• 15:22
  Michael: Funny story, she said she what she once said, Well, I do this and it makes people it puts women into labour.
• 15:28
  Michael: And I was like, Really?
• 15:29
  Michael: She said, Yeah, it's a hundred percent success rate.
• 15:31
  Michael: I was like, Well, I should hope so.
• 15:32
  Michael: Women go into labour, and I said, When do you normally see patients?
• 15:36
  Michael: And she said, Normally within like a week or two after they should have been given birth.
• 15:40
  Michael: And I'm like, Yeah, yeah.
• 15:42
  Michael: Anyway, anyway.
• 15:44
  Michael: You're also you're also a clinic actually that has taken on a physio, which is kind of interesting because I see that a little bit more, but it's it's less it happens less in in chiropraclinics than than you would probably imagine.
• 15:59
  Michael: It is relatively rare, and I think it's a really good thing.
• 16:01
  Michael: I think being multidisciplinary is fantastic.
• 16:04
  Michael: Not because I think physios are inherently better than any chiropractor, just I think it's good to give patients choice.
• 16:09
  Michael: Um, have you found that that has worked out well?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is it is quite difficult, and I can probably understand why why some clinics maybe don't go that direction.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, for us it's worked out quite well over time.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of changes you have to do in terms of framework and structure and things like this.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: But she's she's settled in really well.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: She's not working too many hours at a phys uh as a physio.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: She sort of does half the time doing sports massage, then half the time doing physio with the goal of over time just building that physio timer.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I think it's definitely worth something trying out.
• 16:45
  Michael: Yeah, I I I think so.
• 16:46
  Michael: I think when you look at when I look at some of the really great chiropractic things I know, most are quite multidisciplinary.
• 16:53
  Michael: I mean, many are actually like really multidisciplinary, offering women's health and not not adjustments on babies, but proper women's health, podiatry, osteopathy, some of have have a GP even.
• 17:04
  Michael: I think that's probably the route for chiropractic going forwards.
• 17:07
  Michael: I and quick question that I uh which I'm interested in from a business perspective: your lifetime value of a patient.
• 17:12
  Michael: So you have those chiropractic patients that come in for their adjustments a lot, I imagine.
• 17:19
  Michael: And then you have your rehab chiropractic patients.
• 17:21
  Michael: What's the difference in the lifetime value of the two types?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's good.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I need to have a better look at the data.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um the ones with the rehab, um, so we tend to see them, they will stick, they usually stick on a lot longer.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So sort of they'll they will last a lot longer in clinic, I would say, in terms of like them having an appointment booked in.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll always say, right, we'll retest at this point and just make sure everything's really strong, might be three months, might be four months time, and we'll check that and just make sure things go really well.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they always tend to like have some sort of follow-up at some point just for us to check in.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: The adjustment patients, uh, I'd say their actual like number of appointments that they have, they might not be over a longer time, but they probably have more appointments um in terms of like those adjustment sessions.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're like, Oh, I just want to come back in, just get adjusted at this point.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like okay.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they might have a higher number of sessions, I would say.
• 18:22
  Michael: Yeah, I I think that sort of ties in.
• 18:24
  Michael: And and which is I thought you were gonna give me a different answer, and I thought maybe that's because you tell them not to do adjustments, which would obviously impact that data a little bit.
• 18:31
  Michael: But it's interesting that you do you have a higher lifetime value, or at least as a similar lifetime value over time with the rehab patients as well, which I think is really encouraging actually.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say they're relatively similar.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'd have to look at the data.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be interesting to see.
• 18:46
  Michael: Yeah, well, you've got clinic signal, push with a clinic signal, get onto clinic signal and have a look.
• 18:50
  Michael: Um but no, that is it.
• 18:51
  Michael: Do you have a gym?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't I I don't I didn't No, we don't have a gym.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have it's a relatively basic rehab area.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're hoping we're getting we're expanding, so we're getting space next door as well.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: In this space, we should be able to build out a more proficient rehab area, which really excites.
• 19:07
  Michael: Yeah, that's pretty cool.
• 19:08
  Michael: So let's talk expanding because you've run the clinic now for two years and you know you're doing really well, right?
• 19:14
  Michael: I mean, two years and thinking about expanding and having three members of staff, uh it's it's pretty damn decent.
• 19:20
  Michael: You're now thinking of expanding.
• 19:22
  Michael: How has that journey gone?
• 19:24
  Michael: Like from day dot, which I imagine day dot was all exciting, and then about three months later you're like, shit, what have I done?
• 19:31
  Michael: To to today.
• 19:32
  Michael: Like, what's the journey been like?
• 19:34
  Michael: Any any uh any kind of major blips you can talk about?
• 19:38
  Michael: Anything where you're like, oh my god, I wish I'd have done this early because it worked really well.
• 19:42
  Michael: Just talk me through it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, initially I remember because when I wanted to first open up, I didn't have the the money or the capacity to open up a new clinic, it's expensive.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I found an investor and yeah, I was quite young, what was I 20, 22?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was 22 at this time.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Yeah, I'll give you a lot of money and yeah, we can do this and it'll be great.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: That lasted a few months, and we had some contract disputes, ended extremely sourly.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then I had a couple months where I think it was like a month or two where I was just unemployed and sort of having bills to pay, didn't have any money to sort of reinvest to open up again.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Then yeah, initially found I was just calling so many places, thinking, okay, what can I do?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get out of this route.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And also I wanted to prove the the old investor wrong as well.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that can be quite a powerful motivator too.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And ended up finding a place in the Pilati studio and they had a free room there.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And spoke to her, she managed to give me a room for free for two months.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, okay, cool.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's got a bench there, great.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: My startup cost is super low, I can just see how we get along.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think by the end of the two months, it was free, and uh, we were actually getting our our waiting area was filling up more with the patients coming to see us than it was for the actual uh Pilates.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So she was like, You guys need to get out of here, because it's you know, and we had you get a crazy range of patients, and obviously the Pilates is a certain type of people, as was more sort of women Pilates.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, we had some old men in the waiting room and some women in their outfits ready to do the Pilates.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was a weird dynamic.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, You guys need to get out.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Okay, so managed to find a place, and I always thought the city centre would be good in Manchester because there weren't many chiropractic clinics, and I think one had recently closed down.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, Yeah, this could be a good business idea.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Found a place not too far from where I live.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: We did it up, and when we first moved there, it was yeah, quite rocky, but it's slowly built up.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, we haven't there have been some things that have gone, but generally it's been a relatively smooth ride, I think.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so So we haven't had too many bumpy roads so far.
• 21:57
  Michael: Well, you have, you just don't think of them.
• 21:59
  Michael: You've probably Got PTSE and block them out.
• 22:01
  Michael: But the investor is an interesting one, I think.
• 22:04
  Michael: I've known a few clinics that have had investors and it has never turned out well.
• 22:07
  Michael: My advice is always don't get an investor, it will end badly, or it will end badly at some point, because what'll happen is you'll you'll make a massive success of the business, and then for that 20 grand or 10 grand or 50 grand, you sell the business and they get you know half a million quid, and you're like, Oh my Christ, and I wish I'd I wish I'd never have done it.
• 22:26
  Michael: So I think I think investors can it's just really, really difficult.
• 22:30
  Michael: Unless I know someone who knows someone who is incredibly wealthy, like beyond wealthy, where you drop 500 grand, you go, I didn't even notice that, and they just like doing really nice things.
• 22:41
  Michael: Fine, in that case, maybe you can get away with it with the right contracts.
• 22:45
  Michael: But most investors aren't like that.
• 22:47
  Michael: They want to look at your numbers, they have a an idea of direction, they don't necessarily agree with you, and then because they're the money people, it it's actually quite difficult and turns into big arguments and fights, right?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I could go back to myself back then and tell us some strong words, I I definitely would.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think at the time I remember thinking, I was quite young, and I was like, oh, I've got a business investor.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is amazing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, as time unfolded, I think the best advice is definitely.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I remember signing probably one of the worst contracts ever signed ever.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, this is uh this is a way, this is a golden ticket.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I wish definitely get some good legal advice before signing any uh big contracts I'd recommend.
• 23:30
  Michael: That's that's a really good point, actually.
• 23:32
  Michael: Uh whether it's an investor or not, actually, I think when you're starting a business, there's a few things that are crucial.
• 23:37
  Michael: One is a good accountant.
• 23:39
  Michael: Without a good accountant that allows you visibility across the business and give you some advice on stuff.
• 23:43
  Michael: Like our first accountant, he told us that we had a corporate corporation tax bill.
• 23:47
  Michael: I was like, what's one of those?
• 23:49
  Michael: And what?
• 23:50
  Michael: The good accountant says, You've got this coming, here's how we can reduce it, right?
• 23:53
  Michael: So good accountant, but also legal advice, whether it's contracts for staff, leases, investors.
• 24:00
  Michael: I think uh you you've got to spend the money.
• 24:02
  Michael: You know, shareholder agreements, uh, I think they they come in at about three grand.
• 24:06
  Michael: Now, to be fair, you got Claude, which can do some of the work, and now you can just ask someone to o look over it, which is not going to cost you huge amounts of money.
• 24:14
  Michael: So I would I would don't don't just use Chat GPT to sign your life away.
• 24:19
  Michael: Obviously, you get someone to look over it, but I think those are really important, important things, and I've yet to find and I know they exist, I'm sure they do uh people who had good investment stories to tell.
• 24:31
  Michael: Generally pretty poor.
• 24:32
  Michael: Also, you're in Manchester.
• 24:33
  Michael: Now I'm not gonna name them, but I know uh chiropractor that closed down around that time who were apps that they came to us and I was like, We are not working with you, my friend.
• 24:42
  Michael: Like, yeah, they they went.
• 24:44
  Michael: But they it is actually quite uh competitive in Manchester for both for MSK and chiropractic, but but certainly across the board it's very, very uh yeah, it's very dense with competition.
• 24:57
  Michael: But I suppose you have a slightly different just you know, your website, it's very much a different type of website compared to your average chiropractor.
• 25:05
  Michael: Of course, you've got the McTimony, what do you call them?
• 25:08
  Michael: Council, whatever, training college, whatever, they're in Manchester as well, aren't they?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're in Manchester as well.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they're yeah, they're able to because of student college as well, undercut the prices quite a lot too.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, what is it?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they are quite hard competition.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was always keen on uh remember reading some things, just trying to find some different maybe marketing techniques or how we can get our name out in different ways.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the big ones, at least now like later on, one of the biggest ones we've done actually is working with um companies that own big office spaces.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I spent I remember seeing our new patients is down.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I need to do something.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've got quite a few diaries to fill up, and I spent the whole day just calling up different offices, um, seeing what I can get, and we managed to get, I think, three um visits into the office where we're doing a talk, and we did really well with them, looked after the people in the office, suddenly they referred to another office.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Next thing you know, you can get maybe 20 to 30 patients a month just from doing these different office talks, which was you are an you you are an entrepreneurial little bastard, aren't you?
• 26:16
  Michael: Like calling at cold calling offices.
• 26:18
  Michael: I think that's brilliant.
• 26:19
  Michael: I I genuinely do.
• 26:20
  Michael: And if anyone takes any advice off of that, off this is larger companies actually love site visits from people.
• 26:28
  Michael: Co-working spaces are perfect for that.
• 26:31
  Michael: I remember we were in the co-working space.
• 26:33
  Michael: Every day there would be a brownie company or a Tatziki company, or uh we had a stretch uh I think they were called stretchology, I think that was what they call it.
• 26:41
  Michael: Well, they were a stretching company, and people loved it.
• 26:44
  Michael: And you get such exposure to such a wide range of people.
• 26:47
  Michael: I think people forget, a lot of cleaners forget they they try and get the corporate contract, but that is very difficult to get.
• 26:54
  Michael: But getting visibility by getting into office space actually works incredibly well.
• 26:59
  Michael: So that's a an amazing bit of advice, I think, for for anyone out there who wants to get some extra patience.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um for anyone that wants to try it, I think I called up maybe 60 places and yeah, I think got three three actual visits that we managed to go into them.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, get get a place.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite amazing.
• 27:21
  Michael: That's that's the the I one of my first jobs was cold calling, selling people's shares.
• 27:25
  Michael: Like it's like dodgy.
• 27:27
  Michael: Um but yeah, that's the nature of it.
• 27:29
  Michael: We call a lot of people.
• 27:30
  Michael: In fact, when we started HMDG, Jesus, that's all we did was cold email call and LinkedIn people, you know, the annoying things.
• 27:37
  Michael: So no, I think it's it's it's good to do.
• 27:39
  Michael: And there are lots of ways now as well, automating certain things, whether it's LinkedIn outreach, email, outreach.
• 27:45
  Michael: Um I always think building relationships first, my opinion is building a relationship first is good.
• 27:50
  Michael: So taking the office manager out for a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, I I would probably uh you know go in and say who's who's the person in most pain in your office, and we'll give them a freebie, but in return we want a little 10-minute session to talk about stuff.
• 28:06
  Michael: And you know, I know one company, for example, that did something similar to that, and now they do they go in every week for just lunchtime massages, right?
• 28:15
  Michael: They bring their team in and it's like 30 quid a massage, and they do a 15-minute massage, and it actually then turns those people into patients because they're like, Yeah, don't want to massage for this.
• 28:25
  Michael: This isn't just this, this is this.
• 28:26
  Michael: I know one client as well who did something similar.
• 28:29
  Michael: Well, but no, sorry, they're not a client, but I know someone who did this where they actually went in and started talking about the ergonomics of you know, all that stuff.
• 28:36
  Michael: I mean, it was I think it was a little nonsense, but the point is the the company bought into it, they were like, Oh, really?
• 28:41
  Michael: We need this specialist chair and we need the you know, so it it can work incredibly well.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um at the beginning, our patients that came in were probably our our biggest help.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Building up the relationships with them as well.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of them was running a run club around the area.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: We did really well with him.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, This is amazing.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: You need to see everyone at the run club.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Cool, let's go to the run club.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is Josh, he's gonna sort you out.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: You just suddenly build a bit of that reputation.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that was quite early on.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I got quite lucky seeing him, and um even some patients which might work in different office spaces and um having a good framework of communication with them to be able to get the inlet of getting that opportunity.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think they can be a really big pivot, especially at the beginning and referrals as well.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I remember at the beginning we we didn't have much money to do marketing or things like this, just about had enough to pay for the software, and luckily we had the free rent for a couple months for us using the referrals from different patients and having a good strategy with this where they're getting something for it and the person they're referring in gets something for it as well.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: That helped us out a lot at the beginning.
• 29:52
  Michael: Do you do any strategy around because let's say you've got a nice business, they're letting you do little talks, you're getting patients through.
• 29:59
  Michael: Are you getting them to post on LinkedIn to say what they're doing, for example?
• 30:04
  Michael: How good it is?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is actually a good idea.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, we don't do that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually quite foreign to LinkedIn, I don't even think I have an account on there.
• 30:10
  Michael: So Josh, you're talking to a marketing person, get yourself on LinkedIn, get an account on LinkedIn, start posting, because actually that's where all the corporate action happens.
• 30:18
  Michael: Um and so yeah, I think it it would be really good.
• 30:20
  Michael: Listen if they've had a really good experience, they're gonna be connected to a ton of other companies.
• 30:25
  Michael: Um, Josh came in.
• 30:26
  Michael: This is take, get a few pictures, put it on, just ask them to put it on.
• 30:29
  Michael: Like, happy days, you know, it should work quite nicely.
• 30:32
  Michael: Because if they're referring to other companies, now you've got access to another few hundred patients.
• 30:37
  Michael: So I think that's really good.
• 30:38
  Michael: In terms of your current referrals and so on, how are you doing that?
• 30:42
  Michael: Like, what's the process?
• 30:43
  Michael: What's the strategy?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for our current referrals, when we have a big board in clinic that we um if they as long as they consent and we're allowed to put them on, we always ask them before we write it on.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: We put their name on for anyone who's referred someone in.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the time people come in and say, Yeah, this referral, and they might talk about this uh strategy, we change it month by month.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, at the end of last month we had quite a good one, uh, one we probably won't do for a long time.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it was if you referred someone in, you would get 50% off a treatment, and that person got 50% off their first visit.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then you'll go up on the board, and maybe one person from the board, I think, would what would they win?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think they were gonna win an Amazon voucher or something like this.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that worked really well, especially towards the end of the month.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: We gave a bit of a time constraint.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Said, oh you know, next month it's changing something not as good.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to refer, I'd recommend to do it sooner rather than later.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then and the last week of the month, uh we had like three times the amount of referrals than the previous three weeks, which is interesting.
• 31:43
  Michael: So you're you're running sort of gated referrals, so it's a really great offer, and then the offer it's still something, but it's just not as good.
• 31:50
  Michael: And so you switch it up so that people don't just see it as an exp expectation that that that the same thing will happen.
• 31:57
  Michael: That's actually very smart.
• 31:58
  Michael: I like that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it works quite well.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit annoying to keep changing every month, but it is worth the price.
• 32:05
  Michael: Are you doing it just in person or are you doing referrals via asking for referrals via email?
• 32:10
  Michael: Like are there other channels that you're you're using?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we just yeah, we just use they just send a link and that link just has the referral on and then they're able to book and buy this.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we do it on emails on the marketing campaigns.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: The main one that works well is just in clinic at certain points when they're feeling really good or you've passed a certain checkpoint for us to move on, then we mention it and it's it do you have that as a strategy?
• 32:33
  Michael: Because I know I've I've spoken to someone before about their strategy around asking for a Google ad.
• 32:38
  Michael: And it's not necessarily just at the end of a session or the first session.
• 32:42
  Michael: They have a I suppose you call it like a pain chart, right?
• 32:45
  Michael: If someone comes in at a 10 and now they're at pain one, like there are points at which you ask for that referral.
• 32:51
  Michael: It's probably not all that Google review, it's not a point nine where they they're just being a tiny bit better, it's where you've taken them through.
• 32:57
  Michael: Have you got a strategy there or something in place where you're like, okay, this is when we're gonna ask for that referral?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have um we have a framework.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have points where we mention it, but we don't ask for it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for us that's around visit three.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have a point where it's like sort of a wow moment where they've completed their on to the next step.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we'll go into it in more detail.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think the most important part is how the clinician asks for it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're okay with your clinician asking for it, yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: In our clinic, we are, and something like, uh, can I be a bit cheeky?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Would you be happy to leave us a Google review?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: It would mean a lot to me if you could put my name on there.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then usually they're like, no worries, and they'll straight away get onto it, and then uh yeah, they'll be happy to leave.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, a nice big Google review.
• 33:46
  Michael: Do you find that whilst you're doing that, there are you get far more referrals asking for individuals rather than just going for the clinic?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: They do tend whoever the patient, let's say I'm seeing a patient, they refer someone in, they will usually want to see the person that's who they're seeing most of the time.
• 34:05
  Michael: Because that's another thought, isn't it?
• 34:06
  Michael: Because a lot of clinics ask for the comp the referral to the business rather than to the individual.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um that's actually something we might change.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think making it personal, you might get more of a example from it.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: But whoever they've seen, so it might be the receptionist, might be the massage therapist as well.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: We usually say, um, I might even just say, actually, we're we're tracking it this month, and if you're able to leave their names in it, it would mean a lot to them as well.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they usually go, Yeah, no problem.
• 34:35
  Michael: Well, do you know what?
• 34:36
  Michael: That's funny you should say that.
• 34:37
  Michael: Because I I I was in this shock not so long ago and had a really nice chat with the sales guy there, and he started telling me about how his pay works and how he makes commission.
• 34:48
  Michael: And they make commission on things like Google reviews or good customer service scores.
• 34:53
  Michael: I think they send out like an MPS type survey, and then also on what they sell.
• 34:57
  Michael: And I was talking to his boss a little while.
• 35:00
  Michael: I I was getting my wedding stuff from there, and I uh I was talking to his boss, and he was like, it actually turns because we track all of their metrics, it turns them into salespeople, like really hardcore, because they really care about the metrics across the board.
• 35:14
  Michael: It becomes very competitive with Google reviews, with the referrals and so on and so forth.
• 35:18
  Michael: So I actually I think doing it by the person would probably help an awful lot when you're looking at clinic signal and you're looking at team performance, right?
• 35:25
  Michael: Yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really interesting thing.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And for us, we do incentives for our staff as well.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So on key metrics that are important to our business, for example, if a receptionist phones up a patient and and gets them booked in, it's good for our business.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: We can reward them for this as well.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you reward them?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: We give them a bonus.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not much, but if they get a few a day, it can add up to quite a bit on their paycheck.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the same way with a Google review as well, if their names are mentioned, we give them a little bonus and with uptake of care.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if someone has, let's say they're able to, their patients able to get better and complete the plan and feel really good, we give a bonus for this for all practitioners.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I found since doing that it's really driven up diaries a lot more and just things that we're looking for to be better.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think when they feel an incentive as well.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice being a business owner, and you're like, oh yeah, I want gig reviews, uh yeah, I want uh good uh long-term patients, I want high people coming in and all these different metrics that are important.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the staff also need some sort of incentive for themselves.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And either this can be with finances and bonuses, or it could be in other ways of like appreciation at the end of the month, like this person's done really well on this factor.
• 36:37
  Michael: Yeah, I I think it's really important.
• 36:39
  Michael: It doesn't have to be money, it could be a day off, for example.
• 36:42
  Michael: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Michael: There are certain things that you can do.
• 36:45
  Michael: Uh and I think it's really important.
• 36:47
  Michael: What I would say is that this is more for the very early stage business owners.
• 36:53
  Michael: When you well, actually, the first thing is that doesn't work for every clinician.
• 36:57
  Michael: Some clinicians don't respond to that kind of bonus thing.
• 37:01
  Michael: For me, I think I would only hire clinicians that do.
• 37:03
  Michael: It's those people that are hungry and willing to commit and do extras and all of that stuff.
• 37:07
  Michael: So if if you guys out there try it and all the clinicians are like, I don't fucking want 10 quid, then don't push it because it's not gonna work.
• 37:15
  Michael: Like, you don't don't, you know, bleed out that strategy, it's just leave it.
• 37:19
  Michael: But one thing I would say, and this is definitely for the younger or the very new clinic owners, is if you're hiring the right staff, be very careful from experience, be very careful about giving bonuses for work that they would do or would have done anyway.
• 37:35
  Michael: So if you've got a team that are really good at give at getting Google reviews and they're just motivated and they're, you know, they're really great at doing something for the business already.
• 37:45
  Michael: Don't then say, I'm gonna do rewards for Google reviews.
• 37:49
  Michael: Not because it will cost you money for things that are done anyway, but you you change the motivation.
• 37:54
  Michael: You change it from something they want to do because the clinic is doing really well and they want the clinic to do well, to I only do things for financial gain or for some level of gain.
• 38:03
  Michael: It's no different actually than with children, right?
• 38:05
  Michael: With young kids.
• 38:06
  Michael: Be careful what the rule you reward them uh with, because then they only do it for that reward.
• 38:11
  Michael: Famous story from Freeconomics, economics professor, for anyone that doesn't know free economics, amazing podcaster, these economics does.
• 38:17
  Michael: And one of them had a a young child, toddler, and they were potty training.
• 38:21
  Michael: And the wife said, Oh, I'll uh I'm having a nightmare with this.
• 38:23
  Michael: And he said, Let me step in.
• 38:24
  Michael: I'm the economist, I know what I'm doing.
• 38:26
  Michael: So every time she went for a Wii, the toddler, not the mum, every time the toddler went for a wee, he gave her like some MMs, something along those lines.
• 38:34
  Michael: And that little toddler learned very quickly to do a wee part of it, get her own MMs, go back, do another Wii, get another packet of MMs, and it just did it showed that when you ask me people to do things for money, that that entire motivation changes.
• 38:50
  Michael: Long bit of the story on that, but I do think that's quite important.
• 38:52
  Michael: I don't know if you've seen that or if that's something that was in your head.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's yeah, that's so important.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think um, yeah, what we've done in in our case, in most cases, I think if you get the right person in, you're absolutely right.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't give an incentive for something they're already doing.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to be honest, I think a lot of our staff maybe uh they don't mention the bonus too much.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think when we just did, after we had the data, everyone was doing well, and we're like, okay, you know what, let's try out an incentive structure this month, we'll see how it goes.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we tested it for ours, with our type of people that worked there, which might be very different in different clinics.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: We just saw an uptake of it for us to be like, okay, let's continue this on and see how it goes.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be interesting now if we took a break from it, if it'll actually stay the same or drop off.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think especially early on, if you're starting out, we didn't do any of this incentive structure at the beginning.
• 39:39
  Michael: Yeah, there's a couple of things.
• 39:40
  Michael: First is uh Rhys Carter from uh Carter and George, he was on the podcast and we're talking about benefits and and so on.
• 39:46
  Michael: One of the things he does, because he recognises everyone's different.
• 39:49
  Michael: So he doesn't just say, okay, this is the benefits package for the company.
• 39:53
  Michael: He says, these are the things that you can have.
• 39:55
  Michael: What would you like?
• 39:56
  Michael: Not everyone wants private healthcare.
• 39:57
  Michael: They're 24 years old, they're you know, it's probably not the most interesting thing for them.
• 40:02
  Michael: Or maybe they don't want, and I don't know if he does this, but they don't want a contribution to the venture, whatever the case may be, maybe they want an extra day off, or maybe they whatever the case may be.
• 40:10
  Michael: So I think that's always worth kind of remembering.
• 40:13
  Michael: Another little thing is be careful when you're hiring and pushing benefits, bonuses, incentive structures, because otherwise you end up with a load of people who join because of that and not because the clinic is great and the environment is great and the experience and so on and so forth, because you can get yourself into a position where you ask them what their favourite thing about working for the company is, and they go, the holidays or what whatever it is.
• 40:39
  Michael: And so you don't want to employ people who are just there for the benefits, and that can be quite a big danger actually for a lot of companies.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely agree.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm we did uh we did a job for a receptionist.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think we had 200 people on Indeed applying a week.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, half of them I don't think even knew what they were applying for, to be honest.
• 40:59
  Michael: Yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know I remember being in in an interview with one receptionist, and um, I think what was the first thing?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, Oh, am I getting paid for this for this interview?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And she was there, and I just sat there, I was like, okay, this isn't the one.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think the recruitment process, especially early on, but as well later on, is probably one of the most important factors, I think, anyway, in terms of how that company grows.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think if you get someone who's fits the clinic really well, fits your characteristics, your ethos, and believes in what you want and can be driven.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if they're too driven, they might go off and do it their own.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you sort of want a happy medium.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're really good fit for the clinic, then you tend to have to do less training as well, because they would just pick up things a lot better.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for us in our space of time, I got very lucky with our recruitment process.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: No skills, just luckily found some good people that gel together and work together.
• 41:54
  Michael: When when you know less, you hire people that you like and personality rather than 10 years down the line you're hiring uh you're hiring on clinical expertise and all these other things.
• 42:04
  Michael: And I think generally, and this has always been my experience, don't hire on on expertise, hire on the person's personality and the kind of person that they are.
• 42:12
  Michael: And you probably so I don't think it's luck, it's just that's probably what you gravitated towards because you were 23.
• 42:20
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, and you had no clue, and you just went, I just want to welcome people I like, right?
• 42:24
  Michael: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:26
  Michael: So it wasn't luck, you just didn't know what you were doing.
• 42:28
  Michael: Right, so we've got to finish because I know you don't have much time.
• 42:31
  Michael: Huge thanks.
• 42:32
  Michael: I think there's I I could talk to you for another hour.
• 42:34
  Michael: I've got like 20 other things to ask you, so maybe we'll do a part two.
• 42:37
  Michael: But I think what you've shown is that actually relationship marketing is incredibly important, and you don't have to do some of the the scammy stuff that you see, particularly in the chiropractic industry with the free appointments and all of that stuff.
• 42:51
  Michael: You can do really well through pure relationship marketing.
• 42:54
  Michael: I think you've given people some really, really good ideas.
• 42:56
  Michael: So thank you very much for that.
• 42:57
  Michael: And we'll finish it off there.
• 42:59
  Michael: I know you've got to jump and uh but thanks again.
• 43:01
  Michael: My pleasure, appreciate it.