Latest / Thrive A/F (After Forty) / Lever 1: Mindset - How Thoughts Shape Your Aging Journey | Thrive A/F Ep. 2

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Lever 1: Mindset - How Thoughts Shape Your Aging Journey | Thrive A/F Ep. 2 · Thrive A/F (After Forty)

• Keith: Welcome back. Welcome back. Episode two, Thrive After Forty. I'm Keith, Keith Glegian. I'm one of the hosts, and I'm here with my dear old good friend Fratto. Say hey, Lou. Lou Fratto: Hey. Hey, how's it going everybody? To all my fans. Keith: So in this chapter on mindset, you had references to a lot of studies and observations and examples of different ways that mindset affected things like actual physical health or physical ability. Was there ⁓ ⁓ you could pick that you thought was really interesting that you thought people might be interested in hearing about? Yeah, good. Yeah, after eight, we made it. Second episode. That's longer than most people probably make it. So give it to us. Give it to us. ⁓ yeah, so two and counting. I know it's pretty impressive. So we'll keep going. so if you all want our full backstory, you can go back and listen to episode one. But the short version is ⁓ name's Keith. Lou Fratto: ⁓ Keith: All right, so we're gonna leave it there ⁓ and come back next episode, three, we're gonna start talking about exercise and movement, which should be a really good discussion and probably another long one. but you got anything else to add, Lou, before we wrap it up? Lou Fratto: episodes and counting. Two in a row! Thank Yeah. No, I think that's it. Just ⁓ just remember whether you think you're old or whether you think you're young, you're right. Yeah, so there is a there's a ton of research out there right now about Keith: I am one of the owners of CrossFit Terminus in Atlanta, Georgia. And I've been doing CrossFit for almost 20 years. Lou, why don't you introduce yourself again? Lou Fratto: About this stuff. I liked several of them, but I guess I would to pick my favorite one. It's ⁓ called the Counterclockwise Study. There is a researcher out of Harvard, her name is Ellen Langer, and affectionately known as the Queen of the Mind-Body Connection because she's done so much incredible research on the connection between your mind and your and your body. And Keith: There you go. All right. We will put link, ⁓ a link to Lou's book and the other books we talked about in this episode in the description. And please like and subscribe and share the podcast with your friends we would like to grow and ⁓ continue reaching people. So thanks very much. Appreciate it. All right, we'll see you next time, Lou. Thanks, man. Lou Fratto: Yes, I'm Lou Fratto. I am a physical therapist and longevity, I guess you could say active longevity specialist. I've been doing that for 27, almost 27 years. It'll ⁓ 27 in July, actually. yeah, and then I also do jujitsu. I'm a brown belt in jujitsu, which sometimes applies to our conversations and sometimes it doesn't, but at least it makes me sound really tough. Thanks. Thanks, Keith. All right. Bye. Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: ⁓ legit research. I mean, like out of Harvard, you know, real, real research. And she did this one study called the counterclockwise study, like I said. And what she did was she took men who were in their 80s. And I heard her interviewed about this. And what she said was, you know, that the study took place, I think it was like 20 years, 15 years ago. And she said, you know, back then, men in their 80s or people in their 80s really looked old. You know, nowadays, people in their 80s, they don't look as old, but back then they really looked old. Keith: so quick recap in episode one. ⁓ we talked a lot about how this podcast came about and why we're doing it. And main catalyst was the release of Lou's first book, Thrive. and we'll put a link to that in the description. really what we covered in the first episode was a little bit about how the book came about and what the main thrust was and and why. Lou Fratto: And she said so she she took these men and she made them live in all in the same kind of house, if you will, confined quarters, and they took out all the TVs, they took it out all the mirrors, and they made the men wear clothing from twenty years prior. They gave them hairstyles from twenty years earlier, and they they cut ⁓ off from the outside world. They weren't allowed to communicate. but but they did get the newspaper every morning, but the newspaper was from twenty years ago. Keith: We think it's important to talk about these topics. But before we dive into the first topic we're going to talk about today, do you want to do a quick refresh on the levers in the book? Because those form the foundation of the chapters and pretty much everything we talk about. Lou Fratto: Yeah, absolutely. So the different levers are different things that are just lifestyle decisions and actions that you take. and hopefully on a consistent basis. They don't have to be really large levers. They're small things that you do over a consistent period of time that add up to big results. And so those are mindset, exercise and movement, nutrition, sleep, having a purpose, tech and optimization, what else, friends and important loving relationships, and then habits, basically putting it all together. And they had to read the newspaper every morning and and they had to talk about the events that were happening ⁓ as if it was 20 years earlier happening in real time. And they had to talk that way there the whole time they were in there. They had to basically pretend that they were living lives 20 years ago in real time. And before the study, they measured things like their strength, their vision, their hearing, their mental acuity. ⁓ their coordination, their balance. And then they measured all of this stuff afterwards and everything improved. Keith: Great. Good recall. and what we're gonna do here in these episodes is talk specifically about each lever. And we got through the introduction last episode, this time we're gonna talk about mindset. So I'm gonna jump right into it with some questions. ⁓ So ⁓ are physical therapist and you've been doing physical therapy for 27 years. Lou Fratto: And so yeah, it's like, okay, so wow, what does, you know, what does that mean? I mean, it's, you know, and so many people do the opposite, unfortunately. We we're programmed in this society to dread and despise aging, you know, and and I want to talk about why, because ⁓ that's important too. Why why are we programmed that way in this society? So I'll kind of circle back to that in a minute, but Keith: ⁓ and the subtitle of your book is a physical therapist guide to longevity. So why do you put mindset number one why do you feel like it's the foundation and most important piece to start with? Yeah. Lou Fratto: Yeah, I, you know, I said this in the first, in our first podcast and that is you could really make a strong argument for any one of those levers as being Because we're, you know, a lot of us are programmed that way and are affected that way. We almost some people can almost rehearse getting old before they're old. You know, they they sort of start giving things up prematurely and start acting old before they're old, you know. this this study was about the opposite. It's act young and see what happens. And it turns out that your physiology the most important and different experts lean more on one versus the other. But I think mindset is the most important because for a couple of reasons. it is the activator lever. In other words, if you're somebody who thinks that you're doomed to die young because your grandfather and your father Keith: Yeah. Lou Fratto: affects your psychology just like your psychology affects your physiology. So it's a two-way street. And so they moved. They were moving and they were acting as if they were younger and it affected their physiology. And so when you take action, every time you, you know, so you may have a certain belief, like let's say intellectually you believe, okay, I'm I'm young and I'm going to live to be a hundred died of heart attacks in their 70s, early 70s, then you're not even going to be interested in any of the other things really, because you think your destiny is predetermined. However, on the other side of the coin, if you're somebody who feels like you do have some agency, you do have some control your life and the quality of your health as you age, then obviously you're more likely to be interested in this stuff. Keith: Hmm. ⁓ Lou Fratto: And let's say you say that to yourself every morning in the mirror, you know, so some kind of affirmation. You know, that's why affirmations don't really work as well if you don't take action. You've got to take action because when you take action towards that say belief, then that's when you convince your subconscious because your subconscious is looking for evidence that it's actually happening and that it's important to you. And once you learn the information, you're more likely to apply it because of this stuff works unless you take action. And so if you don't have the mindset that you do have some control over your longevity and your health as you continue to age, you're not going to do what's needed to take action and ⁓ pull levers. So it's ⁓ extremely to have the right mindset to even And when you're taking action, you're convincing your subconscious that this is important to me. And then your subconscious goes to work behind the scenes to make it happen. And this was a perfect example. take action in the first place. So you could call it the activator lever of all the other levers. Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: but also it's been shown in research that your mindset actually affects your biology. So they've done research where people who have an optimistic outlook towards aging actually have lower blood pressure, et cetera. In other words, their bodies actually work better. and it helps them live longer, so it can have a direct effect on your biology. So it's kind of a double whammy. On the one side, it globally affects you you're more likely to take action, but then on the other side of the coin, it also ⁓ affects your biology in a positive way as long as you have a positive outlook towards your future with regard to aging. Keith: you know ⁓ when I think about mindset or sometimes when ⁓ you think about it, maybe you also think about goals. ⁓ And it's not necessarily those two things the same. ⁓ But you have any thoughts on the relationship between getting into the right mindset and setting goals. are, I guess what's the overlap there? Are they completely different? Lou Fratto: No, I think they're related. mean, if you have the mindset that, I have, like I said, if I have some control over my future, then that's going to point you in the right direction. But then obviously, you you're going to have your own particular goals. I'm going to have my goals. else is going to have their own goals as it pertains to mindset. the goals are just going to ⁓ everything that much more. and with the the counterclockwise, you know, how do yeah, we can't put people in a in a house or anything like that and make them live like that. And so how would I how would I encourage them to do the same things? Well, I think that you know, it goes back to that whole thing. Don't rehearse aging before you're ⁓ old, you rather, you know, re ⁓ and kind of point you in your own specific direction, you because we all have different lives and different goals. Try to stay young and keep doing the things that keep you young. But because our bodies are changing, if something happens, like, okay, wow, you know, I went out and I wanted to try pickleball and I tried it and darn, my knee's hurting. Okay. Well, instead of looking at that and getting despondent and getting and sad and just giving up and saying, well, I guess pickleball is not for me anymore. I'm too old. I say no. Say, okay. Think of it as information. It's just data. Okay, wow, my knee is hurting. And can I do about it? And how can I get it better? And who can I seek out that can help me go back to pickleball now with my body prepared and maybe a different mindset towards pickleball? And so I can continue to enjoy it. So ⁓ it of goes back to that just keeping a, ⁓ you what ⁓ I her name is Carol or first name, but her last name is Dweck. If you don't have the mindset that you have agency, you have control over health span, know, your health as you continue to age, you're not going to set goals in first place to try to age better. And so... ⁓ And she's coined the term, you know, growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Always think that you can continue to improve and look for ways to address whatever the problem is ⁓ handle it and deal with it as best you can. And that way you're always remaining in a growth mindset. ⁓ longevity is about continuing to grow no matter how old you are, rather than giving into decay and despondence and frailty and Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: So if you don't have the first part of it, you're not gonna do the goals anyway. The goals just crystallize it to be more customized to you. There's, lack of a better way to say it. So that's to me how they relate. Keith: Yeah. one of the that you used in this chapter in the book was the projector and the camera. Is that I guess explain that little bit more because agency I think was a big part of it. So is that where that metaphor kind of fits in? Lou Fratto: and dependence. So I would say that's a good way to kind of make it practical for in your own life. Keith: Yeah. So if you had to kind of sum up, you know, the main points, or I guess if you only had the opportunity to give somebody two or three points from your chapter on mindset, what would that be? Lou Fratto: Yeah, so this is really, this is kind of tricky to explain, but it's like, you know, most people think that their mind is a camera and that it accurately records reality in a true sense. But I don't feel that's the case at all. I feel like our minds are more like projectors. And so what's going on in your head, you know, in terms of literally like the inner voice in your head. I would say if the you know it's some key points to keep in mind are to remember that whether you think you're old or whether you think you're young, you're right. And that it absolutely true, both from a real life standpoint of you know, I've ⁓ seen thousands of Keith: Hmm. Yeah. Lou Fratto: the your thoughts as well your subconscious, which you're not even aware of, creates your projects out and creates your reality. So that's exactly why two people can undergo the same event and have two completely different experiences or two people can see, look at the same thing and see two completely different things. mean, there's a quote by Thoreau and it says, it doesn't matter. patients and clients and it it matters what you think, what you what's going on in your mind matters. And it's been proven with research. so guard your thoughts and guard guard the way that you approach things. And like you said earlier, you know, your perspective and try to always try to put a positive spin on even aging because it does matter. It matters both from a global What look at is not what's important, it's what you see. And that's what he's trying to say is that it's your perspective. Your perspective is everything. They say, know, perspective is reality. It's because we all have different perspectives. mean, I'm going to see the world through my own goggles and it or not, I have my biases, whether I'm aware of them or not. So it's going to cause me to interpret reality ⁓ differently say you or somebody else. And so... sort of ⁓ psychological away, but also from it has a direct positive effect on your physiology. They've seen it, you know, it has a positive effect on your physiology. There is ⁓ researcher Becca Levy. She did a research where she found that people who had a positive outlook on aging tended to outlive the people who didn't by seven and a half years. I mean it it's been proven it actually, yeah. So guard what you're Keith: Yeah. Lou Fratto: That being the case, okay, in a perfect world, we would be fully enlightened, okay? So when somebody's truly fully enlightened, to me, this is what that means, that they can go through life with equanimity. In other words, nothing affects them. They're at a certain kind of even keel of happiness, no matter what their situation is. So they could be having a girl, ⁓ Keith: Significant. Yeah. Lou Fratto: what's going on in your head, try to surround yourself with other people who are like-minded and who are viewing aging as something that they have some control over and and that because it is contagious. And I'm not saying to abandon friends when they're having tough times because that's actually one of the levers is having important you know, a lot of successes in life and they're still even keeled and happy, but even keeled or they could be going through the toughest times in the world and they're still that same even keel happiness. And in other words, they're unaffected by how they look or they're unaffected by their situation, outside circumstances. relationships because you know we're all going to go through tough times and it's really helpful to have people that'll stand by you and help you. And so if you have friends that are having aches and pains or going through tough times, no, by all means do not dump them and then try to have just friends who are having a great rosy time off. No, because you you got to give them grace and support them. But also try to Keith: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was I mean, it was critical to getting me to the point where it became a habit. it helped that we ⁓ Lou Fratto: You know, surround yourself with maybe some people who are view longevity the same way that we're talking about today because it it is ⁓ it is helpful and it's motivating and inspirational. And I think you even had a didn't you had when you started CrossFit, you had an accountability buddy? And how did that did that help you? Keith: ⁓ both had kids that were about the same age and needed to go early in the morning. So we became part of a very tight knit 530 a.m. crew. And it's probably the one of the main things that established it as a habit for me. So I mean it was a big part of it. And still a big part of why I enjoy doing CrossFit today is just being around other people and kind of the community ⁓ camaraderie that happens within the gym. Lou Fratto: know? And so aging is the same way. And so if we can control our thoughts, at least to a certain extent, at least let the negative ones pass by like clouds in the sky and not get caught up in that whole story and then even try to, you know, maintain positive thoughts towards the subject of aging, then the research ⁓ and shows that you're going to age better, you know? Right. Keith: ⁓ so I agree. Like surrounding yourself with like-minded people that share a similar goal or a similar similar outlook, no matter what age they are, I think is really important. And we will get back to that, I think, when we talk about that chapter on relationships ⁓ what role they have to play in longevity, because there's a ton of research on that. So yeah. Lou Fratto: Yeah, and then you also talked about ⁓ habits as well. That's another important chapter. Habit, right? Keith: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. I've got a lot of thoughts on habits and routines and how important they are. But right. I was gonna ask if you've ever ⁓ read a named Ryan Holliday. ⁓ Lou Fratto: Yes. Love him. I'm reading his book right now, The ⁓ Ego is the Enemy. Huge, love. Love it, love him. Yeah, he's awesome. He's, know, stoicism. Today's stoic. Keith: Okay. Yeah, I just reread Obstacle is the way. Yeah. So yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, that's funny. We I had not mentioned that book to you before, but it's one of the two that I brought up here because I wanted to maybe bring it up. ⁓ but his that obstacle is the way I really like the way he breaks it down with perception, action, will the three kind of foundations of the book. And the fact that when I was thinking about it in the context of this discussion. Lou Fratto: I love him. Keith: A big part of the perception piece is accepting that there are external things that we can't change, but what we can control is how we react to those, how we perceive them and how we react. And aging is a perfect example because there's nothing you can do, you know, to stop the fact that time is going by and that you're aging. But what we can control and what we have complete control of is how we react to that and how we perceive it. And it's something that tried to ⁓ Lou Fratto: Thank . . Keith: think a lot more about and be intentional about. because it's hard because you're constantly bombarded by physical and mental stimulus that tell you every day that you're getting older when you get to a certain age. And shifting your mindset to focus on what is in control versus worrying what that looks like or or what kind of path is I think a big part of of getting in the right mindset to do the right thing when it comes to ⁓ thriving and aging. Lou Fratto: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. And as you were talking, like all these were popping in my head, like, ⁓ and that brings this point up and this point. ⁓ love that if not obvious, I love this topic. mean, I've just my whole life, I've been a student of human nature and I've always wondered why we do the things we do, why I do the things I do, why I react differently than somebody else. And even all the physical therapy classes and all the, you know, biologies and physics and. Keith: Yeah. Yeah. Lou Fratto: and all the health and wellness and everything I've studied. Psychology has been some of my favorite classes that I've ever taken. you know, we, and I'm not sure ⁓ haven't named this podcast yet, but if we somehow put Kenny Rogers' song, The Gambler, into this podcast, basically in song, it's a beautiful ⁓ metaphor life. It's ⁓ as as a song about a gambler. And there's a ⁓ particular Keith: Sure. ⁓ Lou Fratto: verse in the song that sums it up beautifully and unfortunately for the people who are gonna hear this you cannot say that verse you have to sing it so I'm gonna do my best to sing it all right so you thank God you can cut this out Keith if you have to but here we go okay so here it goes so it goes so every gambler knows that the secret to surviving is knowing what to throw away and knowing what to keep ⁓ then how's it go? may have to cut this. ⁓ all right, cut. All right, here we go again. All right. Keith: And take two. Lou Fratto: So you may have to this, but here's how it goes. All right. Because every gambler that the secret to surviving is knowing what to throw away and knowing what to keep. Because every hand's a winner and every hand's a loser. So the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep. right, so that was horrible. ⁓ Ryan Holiday was to dissect that, feel like he'd say, you know, the metaphor is, you know, in life, there is ⁓ portion of life that, like you just said, that we cannot control. Keith: Yes. No, it wasn't. It was fine. You did a good job. Lou Fratto: And thankfully there's a large portion of it that we can control. And then just like the serenity prayer, you got to figure out what you can and can't control and focus on what you can control and go with that. then so we cannot, nobody gets a perfect hand dealt to them in life. know, some people are smarter than others. Some people are wiser than others. One person is super athletic. Another person is great with Keith: Yeah. Lou Fratto: making money but maybe their relationships aren't so great. mean, nobody has a perfect deck or a perfect hand dealt to them. So that whole song is about making the best of the hand that you're dealt. that is ⁓ That is longevity. It's making the best of the hand that you're dealt. And then last part is, you know, dying in your sleep. That's not about, ⁓ let's just... hopefully die in our sleep because life is so miserable. It's no, hopefully you've lived such a full life that you can die peacefully, you or you can die at peace you've lived it right up to the finish line, you know? So, and can I tell a story that relates to that? And again, you can cut all this out if it's too long, but is Jackie's, this is Jackie's story. Okay, ⁓ so is a wonderful, Keith: Yeah. You can do whatever you want, man. Do whatever you want. Lou Fratto: vibrant 85 year old and I've known her for 25 years. I first met her up in my Palm Beach Gardens clinic and ⁓ she still comes to see me in my Delray clinic. And so not too long ago she told me this amazing story that illustrates this point beautifully. She said she was driving the car and in the back seat was her granddaughter and her great granddaughter. And her great granddaughter was an infant so she was in the car seat. apparently the great granddaughter had a accident in her diaper. So when the granddaughter, her mom, went to change the diapers, she realized, ⁓ my God, I didn't bring any extra diapers. And then apparently, to matters worse, it got messy, and so it became urgent that they get diapers, right? So Jackie quickly pulls into a parking lot of a store, and her the mom, says, Okay, watch the baby. I'm going to run in and get diapers. And Jackie goes, no, no, you stay with your daughter. I got this. So Jackie gets out of the car and literally, remember, time is of the essence, right? So she runs through the parking lot she bursts through the door of the store. And she catches eyes with the clerk and she doesn't even have to break stride as she says, where are the diapers? ⁓ And clerk goes, far aisle 23 on the far right side. So Jackie sprints over that area only to realize. Keith: She didn't have her wallet. ⁓ Lou Fratto: No, it was the adult diaper section. Keith: Classic. Not for me, you fool! Lou Fratto: Yes. So the point of the story is not, ⁓ my God, Jackie should have gotten, should have dyed her roots better and she should have, you know, had more filler put in her face or filler if she's, don't even know if she's had filler or she should have had this incredible plastic surgery so that the clerk would have thought she was younger and then pointed her into the diapers. No, the point is, hey, Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: Jackie's 85, she's living, she's an important role in her granddaughter and her great-granddaughter's lives. She can still run through the parking lot at 85, literally run. And then the most important thing is she can still have fun with the whole situation. And if I know Jackie, she's told this story 600 times and gotten a lot of mileage out of it. And that's what I'm talking about is she's still having fun and living life. Keith: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Lou Fratto: and joking about some of the things that are inevitable with aging. And so it all relates. That's the thing. So, yeah. Keith: ⁓ that's awesome. A great story. It's nice when you come across something like that. And you can she can laugh about it and laugh herself. And you know, we're both parents, so we've had those diaper emergencies before. I know. Sometimes you gotta make a run. Literally. Yeah, we have a really bad one that I'll tell you someday. When you're no, my son would kill me. Lou Fratto: Right? Right, literally, a run for the runs. All right, it's not appropriate for the audience. All right, sorry. Sorry, audience. Keith: Yeah, you don't want be eating while I when I tell it either. So all Lou Fratto: Alright. Keith: right, let's dial back in on mindset. One of the things that ⁓ I wanted to just talk with you about is how does how mindset, how it change as we age? kind of a broad question. ⁓ But I can tell you a little bit about how I think my ⁓ mindset changed. And maybe you can talk about. Lou Fratto: Tell me. Keith: your own experience or maybe some of the experiences you know of your your patients. But to me, I used to think about think about going to the gym or getting physical exercise. And used think about it much more like a daily goal or a weekly performance goal. And that's really with because in CrossFit it's very competitive. ⁓ even if you're not in competition, you walk into any gym, CrossFit gym, there's a whiteboard where everybody lists their scores. There's a workout that's listed and it has prescribed, which is the way that it's supposed to be done. And if you're not doing it prescribed, you're scaling. And then there's benchmark workouts that you might do multiple times, you know, throughout your CrossFit career. And you the goal is to improve on those workouts. And a lot of it is even if you're not a super competitive person, or like I never did competition, but there's just a feeling of focusing on the short-term sort of performance goal. And that could be for CrossFit, it could be for any kind of training that you're doing, running a faster mile or you know, getting better at tennis or whatever. And I think one of the mindset shifts that I have worked on and trying to make is thinking about. Lou Fratto: . Keith: What I'm doing to keep myself physically fit, like in Jackie's case, isn't to perform on a particular day or over a week. It's an enabling function for the long-term, my long-term health and mobility. And I want to enjoy the next 30x, know, number of years of my life. I want to be able to continue to do the things that I do. So that's, I feel like the way that I'm trying to make mind shift. Lou Fratto: you . Keith: happened. but it's hard. It's difficult because when you're in it and you're in the heat of the moment and you're doing the thing, you you know, you that little ego in the back of your mind. Right. Yeah. ⁓ Of you used to be able to do. Right. ⁓ Yeah. I guess that, you know, that's been kind of my most recent and experience when it comes to how my mind shift is changing as I get older. And I'm wondering if that's similar, you know, the way that Lou Fratto: I can do this. 20 year old whipper snapper. Keith: you've tried to express in the book and with yourself, you know, specifically or maybe your your patients as well. Lou Fratto: Yeah, you know, and you also helped answer that other question about how the goals versus mindset, you know, so I think as you, when you think more longevity, I mean, it's kind of built into the definition, right? Long longevity, your goals need to be longer time horizon. And yeah, I mean, Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: That's a tough question to answer, but as I think about my own jiu-jitsu career, you could call it the tale of two jiu-jitsu journeys because when I first went into jiu-jitsu at 41, which is by the way considered pretty darn old for jiu-jitsu, I mean it's considered old for jiu-jitsu. It's actually one of the fastest growing segments now, but back then, which was good probably 15 years ago. It was kind of, you know, it was very rare for somebody in their 40s to be in the gym. You I I might have one other two or two other people, that was it. And I went there with the completely wrong mindset. I went there to try to prove, I think to myself that I still had it, whatever it is. You know, I was still strong. I was still whatever and still, and then, you know, I would every, and one of the things about jujitsu is that, you can actually spar at 100%. You know, there's sparring that happens every night that you go. And if you so choose to, you can go at 100 or 120%. And that's part of what people, the allure to it is you can really get a great workout and you can get a real big, huge adrenaline rush and, um, and work out a lot of energy out of your body. And, um, but that is a sure way of injury and disaster if you're 40 and above. And in my 40s, I spent trying to win every sparring match like it was, you know, the world championships. And I got hurt a lot. And it also stunted my growth because I would stick with what worked rather than trying new things and experimenting. know, jiu-jitsu is extremely, has a ton of different moves. It's like chess. And if you just stick with one or two moves that work, you're never going to get any better. So it's stunning my growth and I was injured all the time. And then with every belt and every passing, say three or four years when I was promoted to a higher belt, it sapped my joy even more because my own pressure that I was putting on myself, because now I had a higher rank, I better do even ⁓ against, you know, younger people or people with lower belts. It put too much pressure. and it really sapped my joy. Now in my 50s, I have a completely different mindset. It's like, okay, you know, and that's the one thing that's dangerous in your 40s, I think, is because your body, the changes in your body are super duper, duper subtle. And a lot of people, especially that have been athletic their whole life, they don't feel them. You don't feel the changes, but can show up as an injury because you overdo it. So you push yourself beyond your limits and then boom, you have a major injury. In your 50s, at least in my own experience and what I've seen with other people too is now your body starts to change, you start to feel it and you're more aware of it. And so hopefully you get a little wiser and you say, whoa, you know what? I gotta change my perspective, like you were saying, to more, what is gonna help me be in this for the long term? Keith: Yeah. Right. Lou Fratto: Well, any decision that I make now or any victory that I have now or whatever is not more valuable than being able to do this for 20 or 30 more years. just have to broaden your time frame and think more marathon rather than sprint. Keith: have you read Brad Stolberg at all? Lou Fratto: No, that's a name I'm not familiar with. Keith: All right. Well, I won't go in deep if it's the book that I'm reading now. But the way that you talked about trying to in jiu-jitsu kind of hit that peak, have you ever heard of this metaphor of mountaineers spend 99.9% of time on the slopes and only point zero one percent on the peak? And it's it's a metaphor essentially for saying, ⁓ focus. Lou Fratto: Ha! It's about the journey. Keith: Exactly. Like focus on the time that you spend getting to the destination because, you know, there's I guess research and studies and anecdotes with professional athletes and Olympic athletes that a lot of them will say, I thought when I got that medal or I won that championship that I would be happy. But what I found was it was the chase and it was the work towards that goal. And once I got to what I thought was going to be that point of happiness, it kind of felt hollow. Lou Fratto: Yeah. I love that analogy. I've never heard that one before, but it's beautiful. Yeah, that's what they... Keith: And he talks about a lot of stories from athletes in the book or other people that have just reached that that pinnacle of success and realize that you know, it's great, it's a great accomplishment, but it's not the thing that you should be focused on. So I think that kind of aligns a lot with what you were talking about with Judo. So Yeah. Lou Fratto: They say, right, it's easy to intellectualize, hard to live, but focus on the journey, not the results, or let the results just kind of flow. And when I'm going to, still, because I still have an ego, when I'm driving to Jiu Jitsu, I have to tell myself, remind myself, look, this, you're just going for fun. You're not trying to go to dominate. You're just going for fun. Or when I get tapped out, if I get tapped out or choked out by a lower belt, I gotta say, so what? You know, so what? Keith: Right. Yeah. Right. Lou Fratto: I'm, this is fun, I'm having fun here, you know? Anyone. Keith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. bring it back to like your patience, I guess. When you what is the typical scenario? Do you actually talk with mindset about mindset with your patience ⁓ longevity as part of the treatment that you're giving them or does it come up naturally or do you have people come in that are specifically interested in that or do you you know is it the opposite where someone comes in and they've got a an injury or they've got something that they need to work on and they're maybe not there from a mindset perspective. Do you do you try and get them to I guess work that into the practice what's it like? Lou Fratto: Yeah. Well, yeah. So kind of like which comes first, the chicken or the egg, the mindset or the, or the, the better rehab or whatever. Well, yeah, I kind of see two different types of clients say, or Keith: Right. Yeah. Lou Fratto: You can call one set patients and one set clients and the patients come in because they have an injury or a surgery or they have a condition or they're in an accident or something and they've got overcome their pain. And actually, some of them come in and they're already positive and they have a great mindset towards, again, their ability to affect their results because physical therapy is, ⁓ yes, do a lot to them with my hands and and that kind of thing, but they also have to play their part as well. And obviously the ones who feel like they have agency or have an ability to affect their outcomes in a positive way, they tend to do better, you know? And if they don't have that, I have to instill that in them. So I don't really speak to ⁓ directly, but I definitely address their mindset all the time. And the thing about physical therapy is, you're seeing people who are in pain, or they've been just diagnosed with Parkinson's or something like that, and they're suffering, and so they can be kind of a bit beat up and a bit down. And so when they come in and we're talking, I'm, looking for data to help me with what I'm gonna do treatment-wise, but also I'm looking for anything positive that I can... that I can reframe and say it back to them and point it out to them because a lot of times they're so caught up in just the challenges that they're going through and the pain and which pain can be very all consuming that I feel like one of the things I'm really good at is pointing out the positives out of what they told me and say, look, yeah, you're feeling this, this and this, but you were able to do this. so definitely... approach it directly that way. But you to get the mindset right. And that helps But nothing improves somebody's mindset better than results. So not only do I have to get them on right path with their mind and have them set a goal and know that they can achieve it and that we can achieve it together, but then I better produce some results pretty quickly too because That helps them tremendously. Once they start seeing some results and I pointed out to them, then their mindset gets a lot better. So they both affect each other equally. You have to work on them both concurrently. the chicken or the egg, both is the answer to that. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Keith: Yeah, yeah, I was just curious about how I mean, you you see, you know, I don't know how many patients or yeah, patients you have, but just to have that direct experience of people that are kind of going through it. I was curious to hear what it's like, you know, to try and work with people that are in different situations, like you said, people coming in for an acute issue that they've got to get addressed. And I mean, ⁓ it's difficult, you know. I mean, it it's hard to have a positive mindset, like you said, when you're in pain. you've got pati patients I've met like you already mentioned that you've seen over a long time. ⁓ do you feel like they are I guess typically ⁓ likely the longer you have a relationship with a patient, you can get into those conversations or kind of understand their mindset a little bit more and I don't know, is there any relationship between ⁓ Lou Fratto: Mm-hmm. Yes. You Keith: correlation between how long somebody is invested in doing something like physical therapy having a positive mindset? ⁓ is it just random based on the person? Lou Fratto: ⁓ Wow, that's a tough one. Well, I think physical therapy is action oriented. I mean, you can't come into physical therapy and just, if you want to get better and just lay there, you know, and have somebody just rub your leg and go. Believe me, ⁓ therapy is extremely important. I use my hands a lot and I've trained a lot on this stuff, but you also have to take an active part. Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: in it. know, after all, it is physical therapy. And so the I think that in and of itself probably selects for people who are at least willing to take ⁓ and play a part in the physical therapy. So they are coming in already with at least a certain mindset of, okay, I'm going to I know I'm going to have to commit to this a couple of times a week. And you know, I'm going to have to there's some things that I know I'm going to have to do. Keith: Yeah.