Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S3E6: Examining Your Relationship with Alcohol with Amanda White

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Becoming Anchored S3E6: Examining Your Relationship with Alcohol with Amanda White · Becoming Anchored

• 0:01
  Lauren: Hey, everyone.
• 0:02
  Welcome back to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
• 0:05
  We're super glad you're here with us today.
• 0:07
  We have a very exciting guest with us and some great content that
• 0:12
  we're really excited to jump into.
• 0:15
  Real quick, I'm Lauren Jackson, one of your hosts.
• 0:17
  This is Laura Dineen, your other host.
• 0:21
  We are part of a group, private practice in Brentwood, Tennessee.
• 0:25
  We specialize in treating eating disorders at the outpatient level,
• 0:29
  along with other presenting concerns.
• 0:31
  And we see anyone through the lifespan.
• 0:33
  So we love what we do.
• 0:34
  We've loved getting to do this podcast with you all and getting to connect
• 0:39
  with you all in a different way.
• 0:41
  Quick disclaimer, before we start, before we introduce our guests
• 0:44
  and jump into our topic this.
• 0:46
  This podcast, this episode is meant for informational purposes only.
• 0:51
  This isn't supposed to be therapy for you.
• 0:53
  If as you're listening, you find you might benefit from therapy, if you're local to
• 0:58
  us in Brentwood, Tennessee, reach out.
• 1:00
  We would love to connect with you.
• 1:01
  If you're not, find someone locally.
• 1:03
  local to you who is a licensed therapist.
• 1:06
  So hey.
• 1:07
  Laura: Thanks, Lauren.
• 1:08
  We are so thrilled to have the lovely Amanda White today on the show.
• 1:12
  Lauren and I have both followed her for years now and your content on Instagram
• 1:18
  So life giving and I've literally recommended your account to so many
• 1:22
  like clients of the practice So I just want you to know that But yeah before we
• 1:25
  dive into the specific content if you're new to the show the becoming anchored
• 1:30
  Podcast is about two different things So first and foremost we talk about our
• 1:32
  lives as humans on this show Lauren and I both We both go through hard things,
• 1:36
  we also go through wonderful things that we're celebrating and so we're just here
• 1:40
  to ride the waves of life with y'all.
• 1:42
  And then we also talk about the wonderful gift that we have of sitting with clients.
• 1:45
  We cherish this work, we love this work and we just feel that it's
• 1:49
  such a blessing to sit with clients.
• 1:51
  So, that's what we're about on this show and without further ado, welcome Amanda.
• 2:12
  Amanda: and thank you for that.
• 2:13
  Thank you for recommending my pot or,
• 2:15
  Laura: Of course.
• 2:18
  Yeah, I mean it's just, I love that therapists are on Instagram because it's
• 2:22
  like such bite sized nuggets that you can, You know read one post and then sit with
• 2:27
  that post for a day or two and then read another post and I love the digestible
• 2:32
  nature I guess if you will of instagram and so yeah Your content is amazing and we
• 2:37
  were talking before we started recording today Just about what we wanted to talk
• 2:40
  about and I know that you released a book fairly recently called not drinking
• 2:45
  tonight and so we really wanted to just hear amanda's expertise on the topic of
• 2:51
  You Our relationship to alcohol so this can be a tricky topic especially in our
• 2:58
  culture where drinking alcohol is so normalized and a lot of people I think
• 3:04
  can feel an emotional response when we like start digging into this and so if
• 3:10
  you heard this topic and then you're starting to feel an emotion we're here
• 3:13
  to say that's appropriate and normal and I'm even curious to hear what you have
• 3:18
  to say about alcohol on a personal level.
• 3:20
  Personal level as well.
• 3:21
  So without further ado, welcome.
• 3:23
  Amanda: Thank you.
• 3:24
  Yeah, I think it is such an interesting topic in, I see that, that's what really
• 3:28
  inspired me to write the book is I was really struck with, and I think you all
• 3:33
  will relate to this, as eating disorder therapists, How much easier sometimes it
• 3:37
  is to actually talk to people about their relationship with food or body image They
• 3:42
  will sometimes say I know that I don't have a great relationship with food I
• 3:48
  know that maybe I have some disordered eating behavior, but what I kept seeing in
• 3:54
  Relationship with clients was if I said, how's your relationship with alcohol?
• 3:59
  They would just be like, well, i'm not an alcoholic and The conversation
• 4:03
  would really shut down, which is what really led me to write the book and I
• 4:09
  created the term disorder drinking as a
• 4:11
  Lauren: Hmm.
• 4:12
  Amanda: us to talk about it in a different way where I truly believe that we can
• 4:17
  have a different relationship with alcohol depending on where we are in the lifespan,
• 4:22
  what we're going through, and rather than looking at alcohol as you are an
• 4:27
  alcoholic or you have a or you don't and then you never have to worry about it.
• 4:33
  But what if similar to, our relationship with food, eating, or anything else,
• 4:39
  we looked at it as we all do have the possibility to abuse alcohol, to have
• 4:45
  a poor relationship with it especially given trauma and other stressors
• 4:50
  going on, and we looked at it from, a more holistic lens in that way.
• 4:56
  Laura: Yeah, gosh, that makes so much sense.
• 5:00
  I'm curious, like disorder drinking, that term stuck out to me.
• 5:04
  What does that mean to you?
• 5:07
  Amanda: Yeah, it means essentially that we can all have an unhealthy
• 5:10
  relationship with alcohol at some point or another, and it doesn't mean that we
• 5:15
  meet criteria for having an alcohol use disorder, and that doesn't mean that we
• 5:20
  couldn't benefit from thinking about our relationship with alcohol differently,
• 5:24
  from cutting back from moderating.
• 5:27
  I really believe that we spend so much time talking about how
• 5:31
  Do I have enough of a problem with alcohol to quit or cut back?
• 5:35
  And I think a more helpful question is actually, is alcohol positively
• 5:40
  benefiting my life enough continue to drink in the way that I'm drinking?
• 5:45
  And I really believe in it on its head because as therapists, we talk about
• 5:51
  that with everything else, right?
• 5:52
  We talk about, is your relationship with your partner, with your friends,
• 5:56
  with your job, Is your sleeping habits, are they good enough to
• 6:00
  continue the way that they are?
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  But for some reason with alcohol we get very caught in this binary
• 6:06
  of you have a problem or you don't.
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  And I think it really limits the way that we talk about it and
• 6:13
  we can discover and get curious.
• 6:16
  And that will open up, just ideas and insights to us.
• 6:22
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 6:22
  I think it speaks to the spectrum of There are a lot of different places that you can
• 6:29
  land within your relationship with alcohol versus that binary and it seems like you
• 6:35
  said, Amanda, that there tends to be a really black and white way of thinking
• 6:39
  about relationship with alcohol and it's, we hear this a lot with our clients with
• 6:43
  eating disorders or disordered eating kind of, along the spectrum of Oh I'm
• 6:48
  not sick enough to need X, Y, and Z.
• 6:51
  I'm not.
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  I'm not.
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  I'm not thin enough.
• 6:53
  I'm not.
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  I eat too much.
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  Whatever.
• 6:55
  Right?
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  And I think there's, when it comes to how we like clinically diagnose
• 6:59
  and whatever, sometimes it misses the mark in terms of the nuance
• 7:03
  and the spectrum that can exist.
• 7:05
  Right?
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  And it's, it just sounds like that's really what your heart, where your
• 7:10
  heart's at in wanting to open up the conversation around what that spectrum
• 7:14
  can look like, particularly with alcohol and with how we live our lives.
• 7:18
  Use alcohol.
• 7:20
  Amanda: Yeah.
• 7:21
  Yeah.
• 7:21
  And as someone, so I've been sober for 10 years now.
• 7:25
  I got sober when I was 24, so I was very young.
• 7:28
  I also had an eating disorder.
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  And I recognized essentially through therapy that I kept relapsing in my eating
• 7:35
  disorder when I was drinking, specifically when I would go out and get drunk.
• 7:39
  Lauren: hmm.
• 7:41
  Amanda: I definitely had, I had times in my life where I abused alcohol way more.
• 7:47
  By the time I quit, I don't know necessarily, right, it depends, I
• 7:52
  don't know if I would have even met all the criteria necessarily for
• 7:56
  alcohol use disorder in a severe sense.
• 7:59
  But I realized how much it was negatively impacting my life.
• 8:03
  And I was in grad school at the time to become a therapist, and I had this kind
• 8:07
  of, moment of realizing that I wouldn't be able to stay in recovery from my
• 8:12
  eating disorder if I kept doing this behavior and I was just fortunate that
• 8:18
  I had a therapist who wasn't black and white about it, and I also had people
• 8:22
  that I knew who weren't drinking because I was in group therapy at the time and
• 8:29
  it was so important and I think back to how much how different my life would
• 8:33
  have been if We would have been really focused on whether I was an alcoholic
• 8:38
  Lauren: Mm.
• 8:39
  Yeah.
• 8:39
  Amanda: Even when I told people I told my parents I was going to stop drinking
• 8:42
  and they were like, isn't this dramatic?
• 8:45
  Can't you just cut back a little bit?
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  They, as someone who had an eating disorder, they were used to me
• 8:51
  going on crazy diets and doing this thing and they thought that this
• 8:55
  was maybe an extension of that.
• 8:57
  So I'm also really passionate about talking about On the person.
• 9:01
  But, Alcohol is different than food in that it is addictive.
• 9:06
  And it's really hard to have I see sometimes on online I want to
• 9:09
  learn how to intuitively drink.
• 9:12
  And I try to challenge that, that alcohol is very different than food.
• 9:17
  Laura: Yeah, I have seen that and just as an expert on the topic that is
• 9:20
  interesting that you bring that up and a couple things that stood out to me just
• 9:24
  as you're talking I think the overlap of mental health diagnoses, right?
• 9:29
  So someone might present and have concerns about their relationship to alcohol and
• 9:35
  or food But then underneath maybe they have undiagnosed panic disorder or OCD
• 9:40
  or bipolar And so I think alcohol Use oftentimes covers up and we talk a lot
• 9:47
  about this in the practice, and I'm sure you do as well because I think that we're
• 9:49
  pretty aligned in how we practice, but covers up that either the mental health
• 9:53
  diagnosis that's underneath or The pain or the emotional response that's there, too.
• 10:00
  Amanda: Totally.
• 10:01
  And yeah, so before I started my practice, I worked at a drug and
• 10:04
  alcohol rehab and I specifically ran like a longterm women's unit.
• 10:09
  So they were there for a minimum of three months, a lot of times six or nine months.
• 10:15
  And what was so fascinating about working there was by the time they came to see me,
• 10:19
  they had already had about 30 days sober.
• 10:22
  They'd gone through the rehab and how many concerns of, eating
• 10:26
  disorders and body image issues and food were underneath it all.
• 10:31
  And it was so sad to watch people relapse out of fear of gaining weight.
• 10:37
  These people who were, some of them, heroin addicts, some of them, their
• 10:40
  children were taken away, lives ruined in some senses, and they
• 10:45
  were doing well with being sober.
• 10:48
  But there was such a strong sad saying in rehab that was, I would rather be.
• 10:53
  Skinny and high than fat and sober.
• 10:56
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 10:56
  Amanda: that really led me to, I'm really passionate about the
• 11:00
  overlap between substance use disorders and eating disorders.
• 11:03
  Laura: Yeah.
• 11:04
  Well, I think it speaks to the fat phobia in our society, the weight stigma, how
• 11:08
  weight centric as a culture we tend to be.
• 11:11
  Yeah, gosh.
• 11:13
  Well, I'm curious.
• 11:14
  What are red flags?
• 11:17
  You talk about this disordered relationship and I think we're
• 11:19
  all on the same page, right?
• 11:21
  That there is more of a spectrum than the black and white that we tend to see
• 11:24
  in our clients or even in our culture.
• 11:27
  But what are some red flags that you might start to poke at in your sessions
• 11:33
  with clients or start to challenge clients on in their alcohol use?
• 11:39
  Amanda: Yeah, I think I look at how is it impacting life functioning
• 11:44
  on all the different levels, right?
• 11:46
  How is it impacting your relationship?
• 11:48
  With a partner, with friends, with work, with physical health, with mental health.
• 11:55
  I think mental health, obviously as a therapist, if they're coming to
• 11:57
  see me, if they have anxiety, eating disorder, depression, OCD, any of
• 12:02
  those things like you said, alcohol can cover up some of those things.
• 12:07
  And sometimes people almost get stuck with alcohol because it
• 12:11
  is their primary coping skill.
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  And if they were to stop drinking or cut back, it would expose and be
• 12:18
  very painful for that person to have to face the anxiety underlying, for
• 12:22
  example, that they're dealing with.
• 12:25
  So those are some of the things I look for.
• 12:27
  My goal really when I'm helping clients is, I think a lot of us never even have
• 12:32
  the opportunity to live a life without alcohol because we don't even learn
• 12:37
  how to function in society without it.
• 12:41
  We don't learn how to go on dates sober because by the time
• 12:45
  we start going on dates, we're typically drinking in some way.
• 12:48
  Of us don't really even know how to make friends in an adult way, right?
• 12:53
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 12:53
  Mm
• 12:54
  Amanda: and you're in school, it's a little bit different
• 12:56
  than making friends as an adult.
• 12:58
  Without alcohol, if our job is really tied in with alcohol, we may not know
• 13:03
  how to network or meet other people or do that part of our job without alcohol.
• 13:09
  So my whole goal through the book and in my work with clients is I want to give
• 13:14
  people, I want, I think people assume they say Oh, I have social anxiety.
• 13:18
  I could never do that.
• 13:21
  And the truth is they never give themselves the opportunity to learn.
• 13:24
  And these are skills that we can learn with practice.
• 13:28
  And we know, right, as clinicians that avoidance makes anxiety worse.
• 13:32
  Lauren: hmm.
• 13:33
  Amanda: giving people the opportunity to learn how to go on a date without
• 13:36
  drinking make a friend without drinking do some of these things.
• 13:40
  It can really positively impact people with their confidence and then
• 13:45
  they have more power in choosing.
• 13:47
  If we don't know how to go on a date fundamentally without
• 13:51
  drinking isn't a choice.
• 13:52
  It is something we have to
• 13:54
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 13:55
  Amanda: If we develop the skill, then we have more freedom.
• 13:58
  Yeah.
• 14:01
  Lauren: as you're sharing this like choice piece.
• 14:04
  I was recently listening to another podcast.
• 14:08
  It's a light, funny podcast.
• 14:12
  Anyways, they were talking about, This idea of wine moms.
• 14:16
  I don't have you heard of this.
• 14:17
  Okay.
• 14:17
  So I had never heard of this and I'm like, what in the world and it's just
• 14:21
  like the cult of wine moms or whatever.
• 14:23
  And it's like I said, it's a kind of a light lighter podcast anyways.
• 14:30
  But I'm like learning a lot.
• 14:32
  Cause I'm like, I don't, I really have never heard of this, but it's similar
• 14:35
  to what you're speaking to Amanda.
• 14:37
  Just this idea of, well, Culture, society really tells us, and particularly I
• 14:43
  guess in this mini culture of why moms, you can't be a mom without drinking.
• 14:49
  You can't do it, you can't show up or handle or deal with the
• 14:55
  chaos of the little ones without your wine, without your champagne,
• 14:59
  without whatever it is, right?
• 15:00
  And I was like, this is so fascinating.
• 15:02
  Because, like I said I had not necessarily heard of this phrase before, but I'm like,
• 15:08
  oh yeah I get it I see that, I hear the, I hear these things, like I hear these
• 15:14
  particular phrases they use and whatnot, and then I'm thinking like have have I in
• 15:20
  some ways been susceptible to that type of culture as a mom of a young toddler
• 15:26
  And there's there's like a a lighthearted kind of let's make this funny and sweet
• 15:33
  type thing that like covers the kind of almost like darkness of it underneath.
• 15:39
  And so anyways, I just, I, because I had listened to this podcast recently and I
• 15:42
  knew we were going to be talking to you.
• 15:43
  I was like, Oh my gosh, I have to ask Amanda if she's heard of
• 15:47
  this, which I'm sure she has.
• 15:49
  But anyway, so that was just fascinating to me.
• 15:51
  And then again, just speaks to yeah, culture tells us that you can't do,
• 15:55
  but you can't go on a date, you can't whatever, without getting a drink.
• 16:00
  And I'm like,
• 16:01
  Amanda: absolutely.
• 16:01
  The wine mom stuff is concerning for sure.
• 16:05
  And yeah, I also have a young toddler and yeah, it is a,
• 16:09
  it's a whole different level.
• 16:10
  And I think that it makes my whole thing that I go back to with wine moms, too,
• 16:14
  is instead of fixing the fundamental issue, right, is that especially do
• 16:19
  not have the support that they need to be able to parent effectively in this
• 16:24
  culture Instead we are selling them.
• 16:27
  The solution is alcohol
• 16:29
  It is so sad to me because it covers up what actually needs to be done,
• 16:34
  Lauren: yeah,
• 16:34
  Amanda: you know Having parental leave having child care be
• 16:38
  more affordable for parents.
• 16:40
  I mean It's on my mind because the Surgeon General just came out yesterday
• 16:43
  talking about,
• 16:45
  Laura: yeah,
• 16:45
  Amanda: stress is a public health
• 16:47
  And I think about the moms who are the default parents who are
• 16:50
  doing everything at the end of the day and are drinking to cope.
• 16:55
  And I feel for them but it also exactly covers up what's actually
• 16:59
  going on underneath and what's hard about it too is alcohol is It becomes
• 17:05
  a self fulfilling prophecy, right?
• 17:06
  Where you're stressed, you drink, you feel temporarily better, but then
• 17:10
  you're worse off and you're less able to cope with the stress rather than
• 17:14
  doing something like breathing, taking a break, asking for help in your
• 17:19
  home, getting help, whatever it is.
• 17:21
  And obviously everyone has to, not everyone has the same privileges.
• 17:25
  But yeah, especially with the whole, it's become it is such a.
• 17:29
  It's like a cool kids club With wine moms too.
• 17:32
  And it's, I think it's this way also of moms to act haven't changed that much.
• 17:38
  I'm still fun.
• 17:39
  I'm still, able to let loose and but it's detri, like it's hurting moms over the
• 17:45
  Lauren: yeah, yeah.
• 17:46
  Yeah.
• 17:47
  Laura: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people don't know how to respond.
• 17:51
  And we see this, whether it's like body image or alcohol use, right, because
• 17:57
  they don't know what to say or they don't necessarily have experience with somebody
• 18:01
  setting a boundary with them, right?
• 18:02
  So if you are someone who's sober and you're at a party or a gathering get
• 18:08
  together with other moms and you're like, Hey, I actually don't want any wine.
• 18:11
  Right.
• 18:12
  You, there's a risk there that you might be, God forbid, like
• 18:15
  ridiculed or mocked or poked fun at and that doesn't feel good, right?
• 18:21
  To be the one that is ostracized, so to speak, or, and I think too,
• 18:26
  there's a sense of loneliness, right?
• 18:28
  Even on a deeper level, if you're the one that's no, I'm good.
• 18:31
  I'm not drinking it's almost, I think a lot of our clients feel that they have
• 18:35
  to explain themselves and so part of our work in therapy is even resisting
• 18:39
  that urge, right, to explain themselves, resisting the urge to I don't know,
• 18:43
  get permission from other people that they're allowed to set boundaries.
• 18:46
  So gosh, yeah, there's a lot there, the loneliness, the
• 18:50
  boundaries, the assertiveness.
• 18:53
  I'm reading this great other book, and it made me think of
• 18:55
  you, just what you just shared.
• 18:56
  It's called Releasing the Motherload, and maybe we'll
• 18:57
  have her on the podcast as well.
• 18:59
  But she's excellent, and I follow her account as well, and she just talks
• 19:01
  about how moms are overstimulated, and as a highly sensitive
• 19:06
  person, I do resonate with that.
• 19:08
  And just as I've, had my daughter for almost two years, just asking
• 19:11
  for more help and figuring out what has worked and what hasn't worked.
• 19:14
  And I know Lauren has felt similarly too in her parenting journey, but it's a lot.
• 19:19
  Amanda: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:20
  And I think that there is already like loneliness that
• 19:23
  happens in motherhood, right?
• 19:25
  There's already difficulty in asking for help in setting
• 19:29
  boundaries, like you were saying.
• 19:30
  So it feels like such an additional load to have to then feel lonely because
• 19:37
  you're not drinking with, other moms
• 19:40
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Amanda: too.
• 19:41
  So, and I think.
• 19:42
  That's where we need the culture to shift, because individually, someone by
• 19:47
  themselves isn't going to be able to well,
• 19:49
  they can take care of themselves and stuff like that, but the culture
• 19:53
  still exists and I am optimistic and I think that things have been changing.
• 19:58
  It's been really cool to see just in the past, few years, I've, I
• 20:02
  see way more mocktails on menus.
• 20:04
  I see way more people talking about not drinking.
• 20:07
  I think that show younger generations, especially, are drinking less,
• 20:12
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Amanda: is great, but yeah it's a whole culture that,
• 20:15
  like fatphobia, that sort of,
• 20:18
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 20:19
  Amanda: continues to fuel itself.
• 20:21
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 20:22
  When it, it runs so deep.
• 20:24
  Amanda: Yeah.
• 20:25
  Lauren: It's so ingrained.
• 20:27
  I grew up in a family where drinking was very normalized.
• 20:32
  It still is.
• 20:32
  It's a part of my family's culture.
• 20:34
  We go to football games.
• 20:36
  We drink at holidays there's such a, and that's can be
• 20:42
  neither here nor there, right?
• 20:43
  I can have a different relationship with alcohol than someone
• 20:46
  else, and that's okay, right?
• 20:48
  It, but it just, it, it does.
• 20:50
  As an adult, cause me to pause and be curious about that, right?
• 20:59
  And then also as a parent, thinking about what do I want my
• 21:03
  son to see my relationship with alcohol look like as he grows up.
• 21:11
  Yeah, it just, it's so deep within us and that can be hard to untangle,
• 21:16
  especially as we're all deeply wired to feel connected and accepted.
• 21:21
  And so it can be such, such an easier choice for us.
• 21:24
  to make to buy the drink or pick up a glass of wine, then it can be to
• 21:29
  put our hand up and ask for help.
• 21:31
  That's hard.
• 21:32
  That's vulnerable.
• 21:33
  All of the things, but I, like you said, there, there is this
• 21:37
  hope and if we can keep having the conversation and keep giving ourselves
• 21:44
  permission to have the conversation.
• 21:46
  And hopefully it does continue to encourage other people to be
• 21:51
  willing to have the conversation and put their hand up.
• 21:54
  Yeah, that is hopeful for sure.
• 21:57
  Laura: Yeah,
• 21:58
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 21:58
  Laura: I love that you guys are both mentioning that today, and yeah, I think
• 22:03
  that we can be part of the change for sure, and one other kind of note that I
• 22:07
  made mentally to circle back around to the date piece, right, is if you don't
• 22:12
  choose to partake in alcohol use on a date, I think that also gives you a lot
• 22:18
  of information about the other person, and this could also be applicable to
• 22:23
  Friends that you're making as well, right?
• 22:25
  And even this intentional pause that Lauren is referencing, and
• 22:29
  I'm sure that you talk to your clients about as well, Amanda.
• 22:33
  I think that takes courage.
• 22:34
  It takes intention to pause and to check in.
• 22:37
  And we talk a lot on the podcast as well about noticing, right?
• 22:40
  If you are on a date and The other person is drinking, but you're not.
• 22:45
  How are they responding to you?
• 22:46
  How are they interacting with you?
• 22:48
  Or if you are a mom that is trying to make new friends and you go to some type
• 22:51
  of gathering and you don't partake that does give you a lot of information about
• 22:57
  other people and their boundaries and their emotional health and their overall
• 23:01
  wellness, I think, because healthy people respect other people's boundaries and they
• 23:07
  not only respect them, but there's a sense of honor there, I think, of hey, I honor
• 23:11
  you and your choice and your boundaries.
• 23:14
  So that was just one thing that felt important to mention.
• 23:17
  Amanda: Absolutely.
• 23:18
  I totally agree with you.
• 23:19
  I really am of the belief that sober dating is like a super power,
• 23:22
  especially if you're interested in finding a relationship.
• 23:26
  Do get to see things you that you wouldn't maybe pick up on if you were drinking.
• 23:31
  You get to see how they respond to you.
• 23:34
  You also get to see, what you really have in common with them compared to how many
• 23:38
  times I think people end up marrying their drinking buddy, or they end up on a date
• 23:43
  and they don't know if it was the alcohol that was so fun that made the night
• 23:47
  great, or if it was a genuine connection.
• 23:49
  So yeah, I'm a really big believer in that.
• 23:52
  Lauren: I I'm just thinking of a couple of stories as you're talking about this.
• 23:57
  So my, my husband grew up in a house where they didn't drink.
• 24:00
  It was part of the.
• 24:02
  His faith background that he grew up with.
• 24:05
  And so up until I met him, The different guys that I dated and the different
• 24:11
  dates that I went on their alcohol was like you bought yeah, a glass of
• 24:16
  wine at dinner and Usually dinner was a first date and things like that.
• 24:20
  But my first date with my husband was a first date I had been on the first date I
• 24:25
  had been on where we went and got coffee.
• 24:27
  It was a Saturday morning.
• 24:29
  And I'm like, I wonder if that's why we ended up getting married.
• 24:32
  Which I love.
• 24:33
  And I look back on that particular date.
• 24:35
  And of course, it's my favorite first date because, he's my husband and I,
• 24:39
  he's the best person in the world.
• 24:41
  But I look back on that particular day and I'm like, that was such a
• 24:45
  I don't know that it was such a, it was such a good conversation.
• 24:49
  It was such a, we were both present with each other.
• 24:52
  And so I appreciate there, there are parts of how he grew up and not having
• 24:58
  alcohol as a center point in his family of origin that I can certainly appreciate.
• 25:03
  And that I think is, brings a lot of value to our family now.
• 25:09
  Yeah, sober dating.
• 25:11
  It's great.
• 25:12
  It's fantastic.
• 25:14
  Amanda: Yeah.
• 25:14
  Lauren: I like that you mentioned that.
• 25:16
  That's good.
• 25:17
  Amanda: Yeah.
• 25:19
  Laura: Amanda, I'm curious what first steps are, as a therapist, if someone
• 25:24
  is starting to recognize that they have a problem or might have a concern
• 25:30
  about having a problem, How do you work with that from a therapist perspective?
• 25:35
  So I know we've talked about the converse opening up just the dialogue in the
• 25:38
  conversation, which feels so compassion based and empathy based versus, the shame
• 25:43
  base that I think oftentimes accompanies, admitting that we have a problem.
• 25:47
  So I'm curious what you do with clients.
• 25:50
  Amanda: Yeah I think I talk about the different ways it's
• 25:53
  impacting their life, for sure.
• 25:56
  I also explore just what their history is with alcohol.
• 26:00
  What did it look like with their family?
• 26:02
  What does it look like now?
• 26:04
  How is it, what are the real reasons that they do continue to drink?
• 26:07
  Because I do think it's important to understand.
• 26:10
  There are some people out there in the sober space who are very completely anti
• 26:14
  alcohol and they're like, it's a poison, it's awful, no one should drink at all.
• 26:20
  And I'm a lot more practical and I think that it's not a problem for everyone
• 26:25
  and it doesn't always Mean that every no one should ever drink again And I
• 26:31
  do think it's important to recognize especially with what we're talking
• 26:34
  about if someone is hanging on by a thread And alcohol is like keeping
• 26:38
  them afloat I'm, not going to tell them that they must stop drinking like we
• 26:42
  got to work on building coping skills.
• 26:45
  Maybe Thinking about their environment all these other things First so i'm
• 26:50
  really interested with clients in what role alcohol is playing in their life
• 26:56
  Are there any positive benefits or ways that it is helping them So that we
• 27:01
  can build some of those skills first.
• 27:03
  I really take sort of a harm reduction approach Where I want to help them we
• 27:07
  can You know, I think it's so often clinicians get stopped where they see
• 27:12
  someone who isn't interested in talking about You know their relationship with
• 27:16
  alcohol and they get stuck there And i'm a really big believer in okay.
• 27:21
  Maybe they're not interested in changing right now, but What other ways can we
• 27:25
  help improve their life, or what skills can we teach them so that if and when
• 27:30
  they are ready to reduce their intake they will be able to do it more easily.
• 27:36
  Um, and through my book I talk about re parenting as this concept
• 27:40
  of if we stop drinking we're going to need to learn how to cultivate
• 27:44
  mindfulness, emotional regulation.
• 27:47
  So that's my book.
• 27:47
  set boundaries, and practice self care.
• 27:50
  And we can start working on those before someone even changes
• 27:54
  their relationship with alcohol.
• 27:56
  But it's important for clients to understand the relationship
• 27:59
  between those things.
• 28:01
  Laura: Hey,
• 28:06
  Lauren: shaming alcohol, there's no room, it leaves no room to get curious about the
• 28:13
  way that alcohol is serving the client.
• 28:16
  And like you said, if the only, if they're hanging on by a thread,
• 28:18
  the only thing that is keeping that thread there is alcohol.
• 28:23
  It's like taking that away is not going to be.
• 28:28
  helpful, and that's not gonna, that's not gonna get them to maybe
• 28:31
  where they want to be or need to be in their life or whatever.
• 28:36
  And we talked about that a lot with our clients is whatever
• 28:38
  maladaptive behavior or symptomology that is showing up for them.
• 28:43
  It's serving a purpose.
• 28:44
  It's playing a role.
• 28:44
  It has played a role.
• 28:46
  And so building awareness and space to be curious about that then helps build
• 28:50
  that self compassion to explore what other things can I implement in my life
• 28:56
  that, that will be helpful, that will align with my values, that will help me
• 29:01
  know what my values are, that will help me take care of myself in a different way
• 29:05
  so that I can get to a place where I can snip that thread or I can be curious about
• 29:09
  replacing it with another, tapestry or whatever, for lack of a better metaphor.
• 29:15
  yeah.
• 29:15
  Laura: that was excellent.
• 29:16
  I'm like,
• 29:16
  wow, she came up with that on the spot.
• 29:18
  that's impressive.
• 29:21
  Lauren: Yeah, that's good.
• 29:23
  Amanda: Yeah, definitely.
• 29:24
  Laura: Yeah, I think a lot of people, at least that I work with and, even friends
• 29:28
  of mine, I'm thinking about a dear friend who's one of her parents is deaf.
• 29:32
  And he hasn't yet gotten support, but it is interesting because I think that
• 29:37
  we are making positive shifts versus living so much in the black and white.
• 29:41
  Right.
• 29:42
  And I'm not saying that I don't think that people should be sober.
• 29:45
  Right.
• 29:45
  I do think that is helpful for some individuals.
• 29:48
  And I think sometimes, dichotomous, like you either drink or you
• 29:55
  don't, like you talked about.
• 29:56
  So this is a full circle moment from the beginning of the show, right?
• 29:58
  And I think we're doing a better job as therapists, too, of baby stepping
• 30:04
  and doing the motivational interviewing and getting curious and all the
• 30:07
  things, you are just a delight, Amanda.
• 30:11
  And it's been so fun just to talk to you today and get to
• 30:13
  know you a little bit more.
• 30:15
  It's yeah, I think Lauren and I had a little bit, or at
• 30:17
  least I'll speak for myself.
• 30:18
  I'm like, Oh my gosh, she's like Insta famous and you're an influencer.
• 30:21
  And so we just are so grateful that you are spending your Thursday
• 30:25
  morning with us on the podcast.
• 30:27
  Thank you.
• 30:28
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Amanda: Thanks for having me.
• 30:30
  Lauren: Yeah,
• 30:30
  it's been really
• 30:31
  Laura: Yeah.
• 30:32
  So fun.
• 30:33
  Well, yeah.
• 30:33
  Tell us a little bit more about.
• 30:35
  What you're working on right now, how listeners can find you, about yourself,
• 30:39
  about, I know you have a, you have many therapists in many different
• 30:42
  states, so yeah, we'd love to hear just a little bit more about you.
• 30:45
  Amanda: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:46
  I have a practice, it's called Therapy for Women Center.
• 30:49
  We're based in Philadelphia, if anyone's local to the Philly area.
• 30:53
  But we also have therapists, if you're interested in online therapy,
• 30:56
  we have therapists licensed in 42 states across the country.
• 30:59
  So if you're not in Tennessee or Philadelphia we might be able to help you.
• 31:03
  We specialize in eating disorders, substance use any women's issues,
• 31:08
  Lauren: hmm.
• 31:09
  Mm hmm.
• 31:12
  Amanda: Not Drinking Tonight.
• 31:13
  It's available on Amazon.
• 31:15
  And there's also actually a workbook specifically for clinicians,
• 31:18
  also called Not Drinking Tonight.
• 31:20
  It has lots of worksheets if any clinicians are listening and I'm
• 31:23
  really proud of that workbook as well.
• 31:26
  Laura: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 31:28
  Well, Amanda, I want to open up the floor for you to close.
• 31:31
  Would you like to either close with one or both, either the affirmation,
• 31:35
  the homework, or both of those things?
• 31:37
  Amanda: I'll do the homework.
• 31:38
  I'm not great with affirmations, admittedly.
• 31:41
  Yeah, I think for homework I think that a powerful thing, that we've already
• 31:45
  been talking about is get curious about what, how is alcohol serving you
• 31:50
  and how is alcohol not serving you?
• 31:53
  And if you can see where it's serving you, it'll open up opportunities for you
• 31:56
  to maybe try on different coping skills.
• 31:59
  Even sometimes if you're not going to, let's say you're a mom and wine
• 32:03
  is something that you're relying on at the end of the day to wind down.
• 32:07
  Can you pause?
• 32:08
  Can you Do a coping skill before you pick up the glass of wine.
• 32:13
  Can you drink a mocktail first and then if you still need
• 32:16
  the wine have another glass?
• 32:18
  Just the power of that pause the power of still practicing a coping skill is
• 32:22
  gonna be a really big shift that can maybe slowly over time change your
• 32:27
  relationship with alcohol and make you a little less make it a little less
• 32:31
  important to need that in your life.
• 32:34
  Laura: So beautiful.
• 32:35
  Lauren, do you want to close with an affirmation, or do you want me to?
• 32:37
  Lauren: You're always good at thinking of the affirmations on
• 32:40
  the spot, so
• 32:41
  Laura: totally, yeah, you had the tapestry
• 32:46
  example, so okay,
• 32:47
  peace
• 32:47
  I'm
• 32:47
  done.
• 32:48
  Lauren: I'm good.
• 32:51
  Laura: Yeah, I think just that idea of I'm capable of exploring my relationship
• 32:56
  with alcohol with compassion and curiosity those kind of threads.
• 33:01
  I guess we're on the tapestry thread today.
• 33:03
  Those stood out to me today.
• 33:04
  So yeah, you all are capable if you're listening today to, to explore
• 33:08
  your relationship with alcohol, with care, curiosity, and compassion.
• 33:12
  So thank you Amanda so much for your time, for your wisdom.
• 33:16
  Like we said, it's been such a fun morning for us.
• 33:19
  So we're so grateful.
• 33:20
  Amanda: Absolutely.
• 33:21
  Thanks for having me.
• 33:23
  Laura: Of course, y'all take care.
• 33:24
  Thanks for listening to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
• 33:26
  See you next time.