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Summer Cognoscenti Series - Gerry Hill: Stop Suppressing Your TAM · What's Broken in GTM and How to Fix It

• 0:00
  Simon: Louis, this week we bring our Summer Cognoscenti series to a close, joined by Gerry Hill to ask what an economically rational market coverage model looks like now that AI has driven the marginal cost of outbound towards zero.
• 0:14
  Simon: What's the TL;DL("Too Long; Didn't Listen") for anyone who doesn't have time for the whole episode?
• 0:19
  Louis: So while AI has made outbound activity almost free, buyer attention has never been more expensive.
• 0:26
  Louis: The response has been to shrink the market to the accounts displaying visible intent and then hammer the same small pool of potential buyers as everyone else.
• 0:35
  Louis: Gerry's challenge is that we are suppressing our own TAM.
• 0:39
  Louis: We need an architecture in which brand creates memory, intent informs sequence, conversations create evidence, and expensive sellers are deployed where they can generate the greatest economic return.
• 0:51
  Simon: Stay with us for the next 40 minutes or so to learn more.
• 0:56
  Simon: Hello and welcome to episode 58 of the What's Broken in GTM and How to Fix It podcast.
• 1:01
  Simon: I'm Simon Daniels…
• 1:02
  Louis: and I'm Louis Fernandes.
• 1:04
  Simon: We are exploring the challenges facing SaaS GTM leaders that Louis has been discussing in his newsletter, drilling into the topics a little further to provide some solid practical guidance for SaaS GTM success.
• 1:15
  Simon: Well, we're bringing our Summer Cognoscenti series to a close, and our final guest is Gerry Hill, who is the vice president customer strategy at TitanX.
• 1:25
  Simon: Gerry, of course, joined us on episode 23 in last year's series, and we were keen to catch up with him again.
• 1:33
  Simon: Louis, tell us a bit more about Gerry, remind us who he is and why we wanted to speak to him again.
• 1:40
  Louis: As you rightly say, Gerry's a longstanding friend of the show, and somebody with whom I've had many debates about SDRs, outbound, intent data over the last decade or so.
• 1:54
  Simon: You need to get out more.
• 1:54
  Louis: Yeah, I, I, I do, but I quite enjoy going out with Gerry'cause he's a good laugh.
• 1:58
  Simon: Sure.
• 1:59
  Louis: But, um, what, what's interesting is he- he's, he's moved from where he was at ConnectAndSell to TitanX.
• 2:06
  Louis: But what's interesting is his provocation remains consistent, and that is most businesses do not generally cover their markets.
• 2:13
  Louis: overwork the accounts they're already displaying demand.
• 2:16
  Louis: And his recent argument that intention influence sequence and channel rather than market eligibility gives us a much more useful conversation than another sterile debate about whether cold calling is dead or not, and whether or not we should be hiring SDRs whatever.
• 2:33
  Louis: The question I think, though, is how you combine that principle with brand, how you differentiate TAM, SAM, and SOM coverage, and then also bake in sensible SDR economics at scale, which are things that always seem to, to sort of miss.
• 2:53
  Louis: So, I, I'm gonna be interested to see what Gerry's got to say about all of that.
• 2:57
  Simon: Absolutely.
• 2:57
  Simon: Let's get to it, shall we?
• 2:58
  Louis: Let's do it.
• 3:01
  Louis: Welcome back to the show, Gerry.
• 3:03
  Gerry Hill: Hello gents.
• 3:05
  Simon: Good to see you again, Gerry.
• 3:06
  Gerry Hill: Got new stuff to peddle, so...
• 3:08
  Gerry Hill: No, I'm kidding.
• 3:10
  Louis: Yeah, no, so it's, it's always good to have you on and, um, we're, we're excited about the conversation today.
• 3:15
  Louis: It's, it's gonna be the last in our Cognoscenti series for this summer.
• 3:20
  Louis: um, yeah, ex- excited to be talking about it.
• 3:22
  Louis: And I, and I think it's kind of interesting'cause the, the, whole genesis of this conversation particularly came about as a couple of posts that you, you put on LinkedIn that I, that I had responded to.
• 3:34
  Louis: And I thought,"Okay, th- there could be something in this"
• 3:39
  Gerry Hill: Well, good to know that Claude and GPT are churning out my brain sufficiently well that it got the response, so…
• 3:46
  Louis: It, it, it's all good.
• 3:49
  Gerry Hill: No, I'm only kidding.
• 3:49
  Gerry Hill: I still, I still maintain the originality there, Louis, so…
• 3:53
  Louis: Quite, quite right.
• 3:54
  Louis: The- the, no, no slop to see here.
• 3:57
  Louis: So, um, let's get straight into it then, shall we?
• 3:59
  Louis: Um,'cause one of the things that we wanted to cover today was around the whole way that outbound is, is sort of running.
• 4:07
  Louis: And I know you've spoken a lot in the past and written a lot on the subject of, you know, the economics outbound, why market coverage is important, and so on and so forth.
• 4:19
  Louis: And I think talking about AI and AI slop particularly, one of the things that we've seen is that has kind of broken the economics of outbound quite a lot, and you've argued that it's pushed that marginal cost of activity almost towards zero.
• 4:36
  Louis: But my question, I guess, to start off with is, it actually improved what we do in outbound, or has it s- simply made bad outbound cheaper and more abundant?
• 4:47
  Gerry Hill: I think most people look at outbound in, in one of three ways if they're even attempting to design a system, and the system sort of revolves around three, three critical things, right?
• 4:57
  Gerry Hill: Velocity, speed at which I can do something.
• 4:59
  Gerry Hill: Volume, amount at which I can do something, or dare I use the worst terminology in the world, quality, the, uh, imperfect measure of exceptional bullshittery.
• 5:13
  Gerry Hill: So when you combine those three things together, has a real understanding of how to make any of those things function.
• 5:19
  Gerry Hill: AI has an exponential benefit, which is it can process and automate at sheer volume and at sheer velocity.
• 5:28
  Gerry Hill: Um, so I understand why people who want to deploy those as their levers and eke out half percent gains here or there think it's a, a reliable way to go to market.
• 5:39
  Gerry Hill: But at the same time, it's the old scorched earth parable, right?
• 5:43
  Gerry Hill: What is the damage that you're leaving in your wake?
• 5:46
  Gerry Hill: And I think people are starting to have to deal with the unintended consequences of that, and that- that's channel agnostic.
• 5:52
  Gerry Hill: It's LinkedIn, it's email, it's calling, it's, it's any channel where you put masses of volume into a system, has a, has a massive recoil effect, generally speaking.
• 6:04
  Gerry Hill: It's physics, so…
• 6:05
  Louis: Kind of interesting,'cause I remember back in the day when I was working at Acxiom, we didn't really have the same mechanisms that exist today, and it was still very much DM.
• 6:15
  Louis: You had brands like Capital One Bank and MBNA carpet bombing the whole of the UK every week with,"Get a credit card here.
• 6:23
  Louis: Here's your new rate," blah, blah, blah.
• 6:26
  Louis: all it did was create apathy in the end.
• 6:28
  Louis: And then we saw the same thing with emails.
• 6:30
  Louis: You know, uh, marginal cost of sending another million emails was virtually zero.
• 6:35
  Louis: And then you saw engagement rates plummet.
• 6:38
  Gerry Hill: Yep
• 6:39
  Louis: been a little bit the same with, um, the whole thing of SDRs and now that AI's in there, and you're doing outbound and LinkedIn and God knows what else.
• 6:49
  Louis: Um, and, and I, I think the problem that I, I'm worried about here is that I think companies, by solving, the activity problem and, and just going exponential on that, what they've done is they've actually created a different problem, which is an attention problem, because nobody cares anymore
• 7:08
  Gerry Hill: Yeah, I think we see a bleed over from like consumer engagement with technologies into how people interact with business interfaces more and more.
• 7:17
  Gerry Hill: So I think attention is actually a widely much bigger The attention economy, we're constantly seeking gratification and impression counts and like counts and follower counts.
• 7:30
  Gerry Hill: But, you know, you look at the scale of that on something like Instagram, start monetizing you need 10,000 of something to get one unit back.
• 7:39
  Gerry Hill: Um, but for whatever reason, those, those metrics seem to have sort of crossed the chasm a little bit and, you know, people are, are thinking consumer beats us on a whole variety of things, especially in market marketing understanding.
• 7:51
  Gerry Hill: Why don't we sort of follow in that blaze?
• 7:54
  Gerry Hill: But guess what?
• 7:55
  Gerry Hill: Consumer markets are massive markets and B-- to B markets are not massive markets and, you know, that causes unparalleled shocks in markets generally speaking.
• 8:07
  Louis: Yeah.
• 8:07
  Louis: I mean, I, I think for me, what I'm, uh, I'm seeing here though is that because the constraint has moved and it's now, uh, the, the constraint isn't so much about, how much volume can I do, it, it is gonna move more towards that thing you were mentioning earlier on, quality.
• 8:25
  Louis: And, and, and timing becomes important as well, notwithstanding the purpose behind why you're doing something.
• 8:35
  Louis: And I think it's, you know, this, this whole idea about am I doing something to create demand, stimulate demand, or am I doing something raise awareness?
• 8:45
  Louis: then the third point that you talk about, which we'll, we'll come back to, but I know Simon's quite keen to get onto intent first, but the third point is what, what do we learn from the market?
• 8:55
  Louis: But we'll come back to that.
• 8:56
  Gerry Hill: Mm-hmm.
• 8:56
  Gerry Hill: Yeah, I'd agree.
• 8:58
  Simon: So pick- picking up on that point about intent then and, and building on what Louis said about the devaluation of email and how the fact that it, it became so cheap that we, we just completely abused and misused it.
• 9:11
  Simon: Is intent going the same way?
• 9:12
  Simon: Uh, are we at risk of just taking something that on the face of it is, is pretty good and, and has, has value and just totally over and misusing it to the point where it's not useful anymore?
• 9:23
  Gerry Hill: Yes.
• 9:24
  Gerry Hill: And I think that it's like anything, um, I, I sort of seek out inspiration from other places, and if you look at capital markets and in particular sort of trading houses and hedge funds, they've got one primary objective, which is to find a source of profitability that nobody else in the market can find, They call it alpha.
• 9:41
  Gerry Hill: We find alpha, we sustain alpha.
• 9:43
  Gerry Hill: Generally, alpha tails off quickly because the signals are everywhere, and you just need two other smart people to find the same trade, and then they get in on the trade, and the alpha's diluted, but they're still making money.
• 9:55
  Gerry Hill: And then guess what?
• 9:56
  Gerry Hill: Network effects happen again, and another six people tie onto that trade, and the diminishing value of the profitability happens again, and so on, and so on, and so on, until everybody's copied the trade and there's no originality left in the trade.
• 10:11
  Gerry Hill: But the people at the base of that pyramid don't understand where the trade came from, so they don't have the application, the insight, the knowledge, the analysis, and the instinct to deploy it in the right way.
• 10:23
  Gerry Hill: And it's the one thing that happens across every channel, every technology as we deploy it.
• 10:27
  Gerry Hill: The age of sequencing sales orchestration.
• 10:29
  Gerry Hill: Guess what happened?
• 10:30
  Gerry Hill: People under-engage now because too many people have abused the technology and abused the system and are so far removed from the original thesis.
• 10:39
  Gerry Hill: And so it's like anything, you react and respond things that start to become damaging.
• 10:46
  Gerry Hill: So email security is a direct consequence of CXOs getting shitty prospecting for 15 years through email automation.
• 10:58
  Gerry Hill: Those walls of technology as a barrier never existed when I started my career 23 years ago.
• 11:04
  Gerry Hill: They directly became a consequence of, of people trying to monetize job titles at scale and at volume without quality.
• 11:13
  Simon: Right.
• 11:14
  Simon: Well, you know, it's funny, we're, we're gonna be speaking to Ian Truscott in our next episode to kind of wash up the, uh, the, the Cognoscenti series, and he has this expression which I'll get wrong but paraphrase, which is that marketers can't be trusted.
• 11:27
  Simon: They break all the nice things that we're given.
• 11:30
  Simon: And it's a bit like that, isn't it?
• 11:32
  Simon: We broke email.
• 11:33
  Simon: We, we've broken intent.
• 11:34
  Simon: Um, we've, we've broken lots of MarTech.
• 11:38
  Simon: Um, I guess we just can't be trusted.
• 11:40
  Simon: But p- just picking up on one point there because that-- I like, I like the analogy, um, with, with, you know, trading houses and so on.
• 11:49
  Simon: I- is it though that intent data itself is, is therefore, you know, broken and has lost its value?
• 11:58
  Simon: Or, or is it, is it just that, that it's, it's jumping on the s- everyone jumping on the same signal is, is what devalues it a- as in trading?
• 12:06
  Gerry Hill: No, I, um, I, I've got a weird interest in hedge funds.
• 12:09
  Gerry Hill: I used to advise a company that sold alternative data to hedge funds, and I remember going to see one of the world's biggest hedge funds, Man, and they had a bank of 20,000 independent data sources that they then blended together in a proprietary way to identify their intent or their signal.
• 12:29
  Gerry Hill: my sense is that people are priced out of doing that into B2B technology, Um, secondly, I've got a very strong belief that intent's got amazing capability for segmentation but not for execution, um, because it ends up leaking into the hands of people that don't actually understand the nature of what they're seeing and the signals that intent provides them.
• 12:52
  Gerry Hill: so they have no guardrails around how to execute, and then you end up with this very, very sloppy I saw value proposition.
• 13:02
  Gerry Hill: honestly, the worst thing that the human brain can compute is being a, a victim of a voyeurism moment, and essentially the one thing it does sort of lend itself to for abuse, is it, it becomes this very voyeuristic technology.
• 13:15
  Gerry Hill: also think it cripples execution because people start to read too much into it, and they determine a choice.
• 13:21
  Gerry Hill: Should I pursue?
• 13:22
  Gerry Hill: Should I not pursue because it hasn't hit this baseline threshold of something?
• 13:28
  Gerry Hill: if it doesn't hit the threshold, well, I'm not gonna deploy people on it.
• 13:31
  Gerry Hill: But Christ almighty, like a crumb trail is better than a, you know, the alternative.
• 13:37
  Gerry Hill: So why wouldn't I deploy it in my mix of segmentation activities?
• 13:42
  Gerry Hill: Um, but again, it requires stewardship and management.
• 13:44
  Gerry Hill: I think this is the other thing.
• 13:45
  Gerry Hill: Like, often we think that these, these technologies are democracies, and they're not.
• 13:49
  Gerry Hill: Give it to the person capable of understanding the consequence and allow them to design the work off that.
• 13:54
  Gerry Hill: Don't give it to everybody.
• 13:56
  Gerry Hill: It's an, it's an unnecessary and noisy thing to be doing.
• 14:00
  Louis: I, I agree with that last statement, Gerry, but I also have a challenge on it.
• 14:05
  Louis: And, and that is the whole compensation drives behavior.
• 14:08
  Louis: We're back to that again.
• 14:10
  Louis: And, and this is where I worry that even intent data and anything like that just gets abused because it ends up being used to attribute,"I did this, I did that, I did the other, therefore compensate me." it's the same way with activity.
• 14:22
  Louis: And, and this is the thing, I mean, I, I do sit there and I think that, you know, it- we end up building this whole attribution theater around intent data, around activity, around whatever, and it has no bearing on how a company actually performs in the moment.
• 14:42
  Gerry Hill: Yeah, I'd agree.
• 14:44
  Gerry Hill: I'd agree.
• 14:45
  Gerry Hill: But I also like the old sort of offshore model of centers of excellence where you gift it to skilled people who've got a high base for the function that they perform.
• 14:55
  Gerry Hill: get given a job to be done, and then they execute the job to be f- done with no revenue tied to it in any way, shape, or form.
• 15:03
  Gerry Hill: It just simply becomes a service level.
• 15:05
  Gerry Hill: Like you can operationalize much by people in the job from, from having anything that's sort of bonus or OT related to it
• 15:16
  Louis: But in order to get to those sort of organizations whereby, and I do agree with COEs by the way, I think it's a great idea.
• 15:22
  Louis: But if you're gonna build a center of excellence around something, do you not need a certain scale to be able to do that?
• 15:28
  Gerry Hill: Not at all.
• 15:28
  Gerry Hill: I've got a customer that's got a limited and private and small TAM.
• 15:32
  Gerry Hill: They're very well known, but they still have the requirement to have sophisticated list building for new strategic initiatives, new countries, new geographies, new segments, new products.
• 15:41
  Gerry Hill: there's no way they put that in the hands of their executing reps.
• 15:45
  Gerry Hill: They don't.
• 15:45
  Louis: And, and that then brings me full circle to the next thing that I, I wanted to talk, uh, which- about, which is almost like the startup hangover.
• 15:52
  Louis: And this is, this is the idea that, you know, a lot of the orthodoxy around SaaS GTM, it was built for venture-backed businesses that were trying to prove repeatability.
• 16:03
  Louis: And that operating logic seems to survive that startup phase, and this is why I think people end up, you know, saying,"Well, actually, let's give everything to everybody," and, you know, everybody can go at it, and we all wanna be entrepreneurial about how we do things, and we don't put in place the building blocks and systems and processes and governance that should be in place once you get past sort of startup phase.
• 16:29
  Louis: And this is why I talk about scale, because you get to a cer- I, I think you do need a little bit of scale to say,"Right, okay, we're gonna give this task to Tom, Dick, or Harriet over there to do this and be really excellent at it." Deal with that, and then you're, you're creating an entirely different infrastructure.
• 16:48
  Louis: But for me, the thing I don't understand is why the operating logic of startups survives long after the economics have changed.
• 16:56
  Louis: And I know that you've talked a lot about the economics of doing things and why we do them.
• 17:00
  Louis: I'd, I'd really be interested in your take of, on that.
• 17:03
  Gerry Hill: Yeah, I don't know.
• 17:04
  Gerry Hill: I think that there's just so much of playbook influence across everything that happens, and there's a distinct lack of original thinking.
• 17:12
  Gerry Hill: And it's first principles thinking.
• 17:15
  Gerry Hill: It's like, well, what's my unit of time worth?
• 17:18
  Gerry Hill: What's that labor contribution to that time?
• 17:20
  Gerry Hill: How much of that labor sits idle in my production machine?
• 17:25
  Gerry Hill: my production machine, where are all my constraints, bottlenecks, and opportunities to fix something?
• 17:32
  Gerry Hill: But the big problem is most people don't understand that there are downstream consequences of that.
• 17:36
  Gerry Hill: And like here's the economic example that I give, right?
• 17:39
  Gerry Hill: Thames Water.
• 17:40
  Gerry Hill: It's an absolute basket case, right?
• 17:41
  Gerry Hill: We can all agree on that.
• 17:43
  Gerry Hill: And I can hold two conflicting ideas in my s- head at the same time.
• 17:47
  Gerry Hill: What we see today as a result of privatization is an appalling consequence of privatization.
• 17:52
  Gerry Hill: But I can also believe in 1980X, when Margaret Thatcher liberalized markets, she didn't ever anticipate it was gonna be beholden to buccaneer, um, rent-taking capitalism from American private equity companies.
• 18:05
  Gerry Hill: I think she thought she was finding a way to put private ownership back in the hands of citizenship and create an efficiency.
• 18:12
  Gerry Hill: as with all things, is capable of being corrupted, and I think B2B go-to-market is one of those examples of something that started off with purity of thought, a really strong sense of function and purpose and evangelical behavior, and then guess what?
• 18:28
  Gerry Hill: We're now in a situation when it's been deeply corrupted.
• 18:31
  Simon: I'm gonna have to tick the politics box when we publish this episode, I can tell, but, uh, that's okay.
• 18:38
  Simon: Louis, I'm sure you've got a more serious follow-up or question.
• 18:42
  Louis: Yeah.
• 18:42
  Louis: I mean, I, I, I don't know.
• 18:44
  Louis: I th- I think from my point of view, this then dovetails, I think, into the next thing that I really wanted to cover, which is around how we start moving from effectively market coverage and demand generation kind of activities into more of the brand thing.
• 19:04
  Louis: Because one of the things that I, I notice you very rarely talk about, Gerry, and I think it's, it's maybe implicit in a lot of what you cover, is the, is the actual role of brand in all of this.
• 19:17
  Louis: Because again, when we go to sort of more scaled businesses, the way I see it is brand is an inherent part of the, the entire go-to-market infrastructure.
• 19:28
  Louis: Yet again, in startups, we don't think about brand that much.
• 19:32
  Louis: We see it as an overhead and we see it as an expense.
• 19:35
  Louis: And I know that certainly from a lot of the work you've done in the past, when you're talking about market coverage and you're talking about conversations that you're having in market, actually those interactions, they are part of how the brand gets realised.
• 19:45
  Gerry Hill: Yeah.
• 19:46
  Gerry Hill: Yeah, I think, I think, you know, every impression you leave with somebody has surprising marketing and sales benefits.
• 19:51
  Gerry Hill: And that's one of them, the sort of natural laws of like executing something really well.
• 19:57
  Gerry Hill: And messaging's a big part of that, and the quality of delivery of the message is a big part of that.
• 20:02
  Gerry Hill: Like Coca-Cola doesn't have a specifically outstanding product, in my opinion.
• 20:06
  Gerry Hill: It is a delicious beverage, but you know, they're market dominant on the quality of their execution, not- nothing else, right?
• 20:13
  Gerry Hill: Nike's dominant on the quality of its execution, nothing else.
• 20:17
  Gerry Hill: in software sales loft, uh, Salesforce definitely is market dominant on the quality of its execution, nothing else.
• 20:24
  Gerry Hill: Like its product sucks.
• 20:26
  Gerry Hill: We can all agree on that deeply, right?
• 20:29
  Gerry Hill: But we're so dependent on it.
• 20:31
  Gerry Hill: And same as Apple.
• 20:32
  Gerry Hill: Like Apple's products aren't great anymore.
• 20:35
  Gerry Hill: There's no greatness in their products, but they've become so ubiquitous because their quality of execution's made it inevitable.
• 20:42
  Gerry Hill: Gong, they've made that category inevitable, And so brand is a big part of it.
• 20:48
  Gerry Hill: But actually, if you look at the Gong narrative, it was what's our asset?
• 20:51
  Gerry Hill: We sit on data.
• 20:53
  Gerry Hill: The data tells a story.
• 20:54
  Gerry Hill: We can take that data to market and the market can react to the story.
• 20:57
  Gerry Hill: And guess what?
• 20:58
  Gerry Hill: They wanted to react to the story because it was, uh, delivered at a time when wasn't as accessible, when machines couldn't count, when machines couldn't interpret.
• 21:07
  Gerry Hill: I don't think we get that again, but something else will emerge in its, in its footprints and a new market dominant B2B brand will emerge, especially in revenue technology.
• 21:16
  Gerry Hill: I think the synthesis that I'm seeing at the moment is the people that are willing to have the boldest possible position and not be bland or vanilla that are ultimately gonna maintain momentum.
• 21:26
  Gerry Hill: And anybody else that is vanilla and just does everything off good feels, vibes and making customers happy, not pushing customers to be better, lose the market.
• 21:36
  Gerry Hill: And I think that the reality is that we live on the most level playing field I've seen in my adult life.
• 21:43
  Gerry Hill: There's no reason why anybody can't actually, if they put their mind to it, achieve scalable breakthrough, breakout revenue, revenue growth in their businesses right now.
• 21:54
  Gerry Hill: friend of mine, Archie Hollingsworth, like used to be a customer of mine at Connect Sell.
• 21:59
  Gerry Hill: started a business called Fixer, which is like one of the top 10 AI companies on the planet right now.
• 22:05
  Gerry Hill: how it started?
• 22:05
  Gerry Hill: It was a, it was a blooming PA temp agency that him and his brother started.
• 22:10
  Louis: Really?
• 22:11
  Gerry Hill: Yeah, but they caught a workflow.
• 22:13
  Gerry Hill: They saw a frustration.
• 22:15
  Gerry Hill: They recognized that email was the one, number one occupying set for CEOs and for the PAs that they were putting into small companies, and Fixer was born, right?
• 22:26
  Gerry Hill: So if you know the problem, you can build anything cheap right now.
• 22:31
  Gerry Hill: And, know, you're limited by your ambition and your, your, your, your sort of stamina, I think.
• 22:37
  Gerry Hill: Those are the only two things that are limiting anybody right now.
• 22:39
  Simon: So I wanted to pick up on TAM/SAM/SOM in relation to intent to circle back to that.
• 22:47
  Simon: And just as an aside, I should say that Louis and I talked about TAM SAM SOM all the way back on episode two of the podcast, so we'll stick a link to that in the show notes for anyone who wants a, a refresher.
• 22:59
  Simon: What I wanted to, to ask you about though, Gerry, is again, that relationship between intent and, and addressable market, because I think what, what you've, you've been saying is that, um, go-to-market leaders just over-rotate on intent as a way of determining TAM and, and that's just the, the wrong, again, the wrong way of, of thinking about, um, that, that sort of set of signals.
• 23:25
  Simon: Can you, can you talk about that a little bit?
• 23:27
  Gerry Hill: Yeah.
• 23:27
  Gerry Hill: I think, I think people sort of try and suppress as much as possible'cause they're looking and hunting for active revenue, like what's in cycle right now that we can fulfill demand on without having to apply too much of ourself to it.
• 23:40
  Gerry Hill: But if I think through my entirety of my career, um, all of my best customers and I'm defining best by
• 23:47
  Simon: highest
• 23:48
  Gerry Hill: value logo wins, lifetime value of those accounts, trust in those accounts, have come from me ambushing somebody who knew that there was a problem lingering but didn't know how to solve it, that there were consequences, recognized some anecdotal evidence of what was happening in that company at that moment in time that could threaten them, their career or their market share, were open enough to have a conversation with me.
• 24:14
  Gerry Hill: And there was no intent signal on the planet that suggested I should ever be speaking to those people.
• 24:20
  Gerry Hill: And I think that the truth is even more the case now because as people are deliberately shrinking their addressable list, then more and more of these surprises exist outside of the list But I understand the logic behind it.
• 24:35
  Gerry Hill: If I can create hyper-segmentation based on the resources that I have available to me today, and I can focus my team's time, effort, and attention into the places where they're gonna be deployed most usefully, why wouldn't that make sense?
• 24:48
  Gerry Hill: Well, let's look at the unintended consequence.
• 24:50
  Gerry Hill: I'm now in a red ocean because everybody else that looks even remotely similar to me has probably subscribed to the same insights, the same tooling, the same technologies.
• 25:00
  Gerry Hill: also seeing exactly the same signals.
• 25:02
  Gerry Hill: And by the way, most people aren't brilliant enough, brilliant enough to deliver enough interpretation of the signals, so they all blindly swarm onto the same accounts that everyone else is swarming onto.
• 25:12
  Gerry Hill: all of a sudden, nobody does anything because they've got 58 vendors coming at them with different perspectives, different stories, different points of view.
• 25:22
  Gerry Hill: And then where are you?
• 25:24
  Gerry Hill: You're back where you started.
• 25:26
  Gerry Hill: Nobody's won anything.
• 25:27
  Gerry Hill: Customer hasn't won.
• 25:29
  Gerry Hill: made the, the problem feel too complex.
• 25:33
  Gerry Hill: Um, the vendors haven't won because they've been sort of stitching each other up massively.
• 25:39
  Gerry Hill: And then the individual reps themselves are failing out and wondering if this is a good choice for them and end up in that inevitable one-year job cycle because they don't feel like there's enough product market fit to justify their quota and their existence.
• 25:53
  Gerry Hill: So that's the unintended consequence.
• 25:56
  Gerry Hill: but actually, if you've got a function which can explore the market at next to zero cost because you've set it up appropriately to gather intelligence, then all of a sudden got a proprietary signal that potentially nobody else has.
• 26:11
  Gerry Hill: And it goes back to my analogy earlier, where do you wanna be as a business?
• 26:15
  Gerry Hill: The people finding alpha or the people following alpha?
• 26:18
  Gerry Hill: Well, actually, a differentiated signal is key for anybody that wants to find alpha and strike gold on it, right?
• 26:24
  Gerry Hill: So…
• 26:25
  Simon: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Simon: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Simon: That makes sense.
• 26:27
  Gerry Hill: That's my thesis.
• 26:27
  Gerry Hill: So it's been my thesis for years, but it's the first time operationally I've put it in play and it is absolutely game-changing.
• 26:36
  Simon: Makes complete sense, and it touches back on the brand piece as well, doesn't it?
• 26:39
  Simon: And also, it's interesting your, your, your kind of observation there about, uh, buyers almost just getting overwhelmed by, by the sort of swarm of vendors.
• 26:49
  Simon: And, you know, one of the findings from the, um, Accenture Song Customer Buying Index that we, we published recently was that, you know, 60% of, of purchases stall for one reason or another, and that we-- I don't think we've got data to, to actually demonstrate it, but that could well be a reason, is just overwhelm.
• 27:09
  Simon: Um, there's, there's just, there's just too much, and, uh, it's easier not to make a d- a decision than to make a decision.
• 27:15
  Simon: So, uh, yeah, interesting, uh, interesting observation.
• 27:19
  Gerry Hill: Yeah.
• 27:19
  Gerry Hill: I think we, you know, we, we've always coached this, right, Louis, with reps.
• 27:21
  Gerry Hill: It's like when you encounter an RFP, you don't want to bid on the RFP'cause you didn't inform or influence the RFP, right?
• 27:28
  Gerry Hill: And intent has a sort of directional function of that, which is it forms as an informal qualification mechanism and, you know, you end up in a situation where you've potentially not got the chops, the credibility, or the acumen to be able to solve the problem as well as the other guy who's swarming on your account at the same time.
• 27:46
  Gerry Hill: So you have to redefine your to concentrate time, effort, resources, and resource allocation much more efficiently.
• 27:54
  Gerry Hill: So what we've been doing, um, a lot more and we're having breakthrough results on, we've kind of established a secondary function which isn't tied to meetings and it isn't tied to revenue Um, and we call it market development, not sales development.
• 28:10
  Gerry Hill: And what we've done there is we've gone offshore.
• 28:13
  Gerry Hill: We've not hired people with a typical sales profile.
• 28:16
  Gerry Hill: We've taken people with a sort of BPO profile with high first quality English.
• 28:22
  Gerry Hill: Um, we reposition all the talk tracks to drive conversation below the line.
• 28:29
  Gerry Hill: We're not really trying to talk to authority or decision-makers.
• 28:33
  Gerry Hill: And we've got these guys who will have 20 conversations a day with people who live with problems, and it's amazing.
• 28:41
  Gerry Hill: They're a bit like psychologists.
• 28:43
  Gerry Hill: When people get confronted with non-confrontational conversations that aren't requesting anything other than a chat so that you can be in a confessional with the priest, it's amazing what people tell you.
• 28:56
  Gerry Hill: Um, and the consequence of that, if the process funnels appropriately, the AEs now have a comprehensively differentiated point of view, and they can do the final mile on the prospecting.
• 29:08
  Gerry Hill: And I'll, I'll give you a good example.
• 29:10
  Gerry Hill: I was in Houston a few months ago.
• 29:11
  Gerry Hill: We were at a CRO conference called the Millennium Alliance, and Joey, my CEO, was there delivering his keynote, and he flashed one slide talking about conversations as the atomic unit of go-to-market.
• 29:23
  Gerry Hill: It was, it's, it's quite smart positioning.
• 29:25
  Gerry Hill: And he said,"Here's what I mean." And he deliberately had our MDRs activate for one CRO that was gonna be in attendance.
• 29:32
  Gerry Hill: And the slide popped up on the main stage.
• 29:35
  Gerry Hill: Must have been about 500 people there.
• 29:37
  Gerry Hill: it was an SDR point of view, an AE point of view, a sales director point of view, a revops point of view, a regional leader's point of view, a VP's point of view, a customer's point of view.
• 29:51
  Gerry Hill: And all things pointed to this massive blind spot in the CRO's mindset on prioritization and the problem that he had to solve immediately.
• 30:01
  Gerry Hill: And then the, the, the, the call to action was,"Hey, you know who you are.
• 30:05
  Gerry Hill: Come and meet me." And they're, they're doing business with us now, right?
• 30:11
  Gerry Hill: So the theater of that is a hyper point on the point I'm trying to make.
• 30:16
  Gerry Hill: But because everything from who lives the problem, who stewards the problem, who operationally has to direct the problem, and who funds the problem are now in context rather than it being proxy measures like website visits or downloads of white papers.
• 30:34
  Gerry Hill: I've now got actual conversational that I can deploy into my point of view, not all other signals.
• 30:42
  Gerry Hill: Now imagine being able to blend that with other signals as a cherry on top scoring mechanism, and then you've got craft meeting technology…and it's only possible because we've created a breakthrough that enables people to have conversations at scale without any technology interference like parallel dialers or volume plays.
• 31:04
  Gerry Hill: we've also got AI sitting in the back end, which is routing all of these things into a variety of different play mechanisms that then route straight through to pursue, nurture, pause, stop.
• 31:18
  Gerry Hill: And there have to be a certain number of conversations in all of those accounts to trigger those various activations.
• 31:25
  Gerry Hill: And so that's how I think about intent is conversations directly from people that are participating against a problem that we know we can solve and just collecting proprietary information with zero threat.
• 31:37
  Gerry Hill: We're not asking them for anything.
• 31:38
  Louis: Uh, it's super interesting, Gerry,'cause there, there's three points in here I wanna really pick up on.
• 31:42
  Louis: Number one is something you've said for at least a decade, right?
• 31:46
  Louis: And that's conversations are data.
• 31:50
  Louis: And it's, it's anything from not now to wrong stakeholder, no fit, call me next quarter, all those kind of things, to this is the actual problem I'm solving for.
• 31:59
  Louis: It's not th- this thing over here, it's this other thing, or this is my point of view compared to what you think the point of view might be from a different stakeholder.
• 32:06
  Louis: All of these things are, are, are data points.
• 32:09
  Louis: But then it goes back to the economics that you've talked about a lot, um, and how you cover it.
• 32:14
  Louis: So we've talked about TAM, we've talked about SAM, we've talked about SOM.
• 32:18
  Louis: Each one of those, I believe, has a different economic model attached to it because you can't You know, if, if you've got a TAM and you're saying,"Our TAM is 25 billion per annum recurring," you can't cover that, right?
• 32:32
  Louis: So the idea is what, what do you do?
• 32:35
  Louis: And this is where we come back to brand again because I really do think, you know, your, your brand educates the, the TAM.
• 32:41
  Louis: You then say,"Okay, well, what are the, what are the, what is the economic model that best fits my SAM?" And there may be some, a bit like you've said, and I love that idea of the, um, the guys that you have that are off your- that are phoning in but are learning.
• 32:57
  Louis: gathering that data.
• 32:58
  Louis: But it might be that, it might be some of the more outbound that you're doing with white papers.
• 33:02
  Louis: It might be, um, webinars.
• 33:04
  Louis: It might be, uh, you know, in-person meetings where people are learning about the product, and so on and so forth.
• 33:11
  Louis: When you get to SAM, when you get to SOM, that's where you're really putting your very expensive resources.
• 33:16
  Gerry Hill: Totally agree
• 33:17
  Louis: On the actual account.
• 33:19
  Louis: But that's because you've learnt things along the way and you know, yes, you have some intent data, but yes, you've also learnt these are the things they care about and now is the right timing.
• 33:31
  Louis: And when you do that, it changes entirely the entire model and how we do things.
• 33:37
  Louis: And what you can't do, and this is where I think a lot of brands go wrong, and I'd love your point of view on this, is they go,"Right, I'm gonna start using my outbound.
• 33:44
  Louis: I'm gonna use my expensive SDR res- resource just to book those meetings because I believe you're in market right now.
• 33:52
  Louis: I've got the intent data that shows me that, I come in in the 11th hour and I suddenly expect there to be a result and a meeting and something like that," when somebody else may have been talking to these guys for the last six months, 12 months, 18 months, years at different points and, and having, and creating that memory of this is the brand that can fix my, my problem.
• 34:15
  Louis: These are the people that I'm likely to trust because I have that recognition of the brand.
• 34:20
  Gerry Hill: Well, I think there are sort of multiple disciplines, right?
• 34:21
  Gerry Hill: If I'm a marketeer, I want to nurture.
• 34:24
  Gerry Hill: So what's nurturing in its most rudimental sense is following up with people.
• 34:28
  Gerry Hill: Um, if I'm a sales development rep, my meeting attainment narrows and gets better over time'cause I follow up with people.
• 34:36
  Gerry Hill: a sales rep, I get closer to achieving my revenue quota because I follow up with people, And if I don't have that fundamental discipline in my system, in my personal approach, or in my strategy, then I'm failing.
• 34:48
  Gerry Hill: And I'll give you some example, right?
• 34:49
  Gerry Hill: I've been running a lot of diagnostics on people's call outcome data recently, like two years' worth of data at a time, peeling it off any of their dialers or sales engagement tools, the reporting that lives in those systems is inadequate.
• 35:02
  Gerry Hill: It doesn't actually give you anything around behavior, behavioral symptoms, what's happening in phone quality.
• 35:08
  Gerry Hill: Um, by quality I mean spam, safe phone numbers, number rotation, other things.
• 35:13
  Gerry Hill: The one thing that I, I've programmed into this diagnostic is how many attempts per prospect are happening on average, right?
• 35:22
  Gerry Hill: I've probably analyzed somewhere in the region of about 100 million data points in the past six months from a variety of our customers.
• 35:29
  Gerry Hill: On average, people are prospecting 2.2 times a unique prospect before they give up and move on to the next thing.
• 35:39
  Gerry Hill: Now, think about the consequences of that, right?
• 35:42
  Gerry Hill: Right, we know that in a universe where 20% of prospects pick up the phone and 80% don't, and we've isolated those 20% as a form of a signal, and we think that we can get 85% coverage on the 25, uh, sorry, 20% of people that pick up the phone.
• 35:59
  Gerry Hill: That means that we need at least seven to eight dial attempts to get that level of coverage to the people that we know pick up the phone, people are giving up at 2.2.
• 36:10
  Gerry Hill: people aren't doing their job, Louis.
• 36:13
  Gerry Hill: That's the problem, and so that's why I'm so, so dogmatic about the labor economics, right?
• 36:20
  Gerry Hill: Because the labor's not doing the job.
• 36:22
  Gerry Hill: It's not exhausting the supply, and until you've exhausted the supply, you can't reliably model TAM/SAM/SOM.
• 36:28
  Louis: I think it's worse than that, Gerry, because I think what actually happens is people turn around and go,"Well, I've made 20 attempts.
• 36:34
  Louis: I had this sequence where I send out these canned automated emails.
• 36:40
  Louis: I sent them the LinkedIn request.
• 36:43
  Louis: I've liked their posts.
• 36:44
  Louis: Aren't those follow-ups?" And to your point, the whole point is they're not picking up the phone, not making the dial.
• 36:54
  Gerry Hill: Well, it's worse than that.
• 36:55
  Gerry Hill: There isn't a single system of record or system of engagement, whether it's a dialer, an email orchestration tool, or a CRM, that actively inspects minute by minute, day by day what tasks are being skipped.
• 37:09
  Gerry Hill: I know it sounds ridiculous to think about it, but actually I can learn so much from task skipping about the nature of my market or the nature of my labor.
• 37:19
  Gerry Hill: People only skip tasks for one of three reasons.
• 37:21
  Gerry Hill: It's not the right person.
• 37:23
  Gerry Hill: I don't feel comfortable positioning our offer with that human, so I'm gonna skip it.
• 37:27
  Gerry Hill: That's an awesome signal.
• 37:28
  Gerry Hill: Something happened in the list design to make that a fact.
• 37:33
  Gerry Hill: the second one is, I've spoken to this person before and the routing mechanisms don't work for me.
• 37:39
  Gerry Hill: They're a definite no.
• 37:41
  Gerry Hill: the third one is I'm simply reluctant.
• 37:43
  Gerry Hill: I might have had a jarring experience with that person, or my own self-limiting records prevent me from speaking to that person because either they're too high, um, I've spoken to somebody with an equivalent job title in an equivalent company before, and they brushed me off and made me feel bad about myself.
• 37:57
  Gerry Hill: But imagine how different the world would be if we could monitor skip tasks.
• 38:02
  Gerry Hill: Imagine what that could do to coaching at the first line.
• 38:05
  Gerry Hill: Imagine what that could do to system design at revops chief revenue officer, chief revenue architect level.
• 38:11
  Gerry Hill: Imagine that that could do for investor relations when we remodel our TAM, SAM, SOM.
• 38:16
  Gerry Hill: My, my sense is that coverage is getting completely destroyed because people aren't doing their jobs, and so they're not maximizing the money that we pay for them.
• 38:25
  Gerry Hill: they're doing their job at 20% of their capability and we're paying them 1,500 bucks a month for an SDR or 5,000 bucks a month for an AE, I'm basically pissing away 80% of the money that I put into that human.
• 38:40
  Gerry Hill: What else are they doing?
• 38:41
  Gerry Hill: So the-- for me, the labor economics is such an important point on any arguments around go-to-market strategy at the moment, because labor is your most expensive asset in your tool set in a world where virtually everything's going to zero So the, the, the human economics of it, the labor economics, the cost.
• 39:01
  Gerry Hill: Like gonna stand up a European business in the next three weeks, I'm looking at my resourcing options.
• 39:08
  Gerry Hill: No way on earth I'm picking an SDR based in the UK, frankly.
• 39:13
  Gerry Hill: It's just not happening.
• 39:15
  Gerry Hill: As much as I want to be a net employment contributor, and as much as I understand all of the turmoil around entry-level employment in our country right now, I'm not gonna do it.
• 39:25
  Gerry Hill: I'm not gonna get the quality and it's gonna cost me too much.
• 39:28
  Simon: So Gerry, in, in the last couple of minutes that we've got, how, how would you approach that and, and what would be the sort of coverage model that you'd use?
• 39:35
  Simon: You, you've talked about offshoring and you've, you've talked about dial rates and so on.
• 39:39
  Simon: What, what's, what's that gonna look like when you stand it up?
• 39:43
  Gerry Hill: Yeah.
• 39:43
  Gerry Hill: So market development's already started doing work.
• 39:45
  Gerry Hill: Um, they've got a list of 4,000 pursuit accounts that we want to target and profile.
• 39:51
  Gerry Hill: We've got a good hypothesis on those accounts.
• 39:53
  Gerry Hill: They've shown signals through other intent features, we don't want to nakedly go and prospect them until we've caught additional signals through the conversations.
• 40:02
  Gerry Hill: Now they'll route to one of three directions.
• 40:04
  Gerry Hill: They'll either route to marketing for nurture.
• 40:06
  Gerry Hill: They'll route to, uh, a sales development resource that we have available to us in South Africa for more senior pipeline development work, or they'll route straight through to me in the short term until I start hiring AEs, and I'll start carrying the load.
• 40:21
  Gerry Hill: But the key point is, it's a material signal, and it will help us with our prioritization.
• 40:26
  Gerry Hill: In three weeks, we'll have enough points of view across that 4,000 account base where we'll have very strong reasons to engage with the most senior executives from an ambush and a cold start of anybody else I can think of in the market, frankly.
• 40:41
  Gerry Hill: And if I haven't acquired an exponential number of logos this time next year, take me out behind my house and shoot me because I don't have a leg to stand on.
• 40:52
  Gerry Hill: I think that this is how you start engines.
• 40:55
  Gerry Hill: Collect the information, do it cheap, do it in a way that's accessible.
• 40:59
  Gerry Hill: Process that information through the automation and AI technologies that are available to us.
• 41:04
  Gerry Hill: humans to then add their judgment and commercial acumen, and then go and absolutely redefine work your employees, but also offers and propositions that you can take to market.
• 41:17
  Gerry Hill: And then that supports the brand building, right, Louis?
• 41:19
  Louis: Absolutely.
• 41:20
  Louis: And, and this is the thing, right?
• 41:21
  Louis: So I'm, I'm conscious of time, but I wanna, wanna just ask you one final question.
• 41:26
  Louis: Out of all the things we've covered today, if a CRO who's listening to this takes one action from this conversation, what is it that you would tell them to either change about the way their company covers or learns from or allocates selling capacity across its market that they need to do, take into account and do now?
• 41:43
  Gerry Hill: I would literally take screenshots of the past 18 weeks of all of my AEs calendars.
• 41:51
  Gerry Hill: I would dump those screenshots into Claude or GPT, and I would ask Claude or GPT to show me what the seller capacity per rep is based on white space.
• 42:02
  Gerry Hill: I would then look at quota attainment, I would match up those two things, and then I would determine if I need to hire more people in order to be able to fulfill on my capacity, or do I need to create a system that enables my closing sellers to have more things put in front of them.
• 42:20
  Gerry Hill: But the only way you can realistically judge that is physically looking at people's calendars.
• 42:25
  Gerry Hill: One of my favorite exercises at the moment when I meet with CROs and we talk about AEs prospecting at a certain clip, probably about 20% of their book, right?
• 42:34
  Gerry Hill: me any one of your reps' calendars right now, and I guarantee you they've only got about 10 to 12 hours of diarized time in active selling time.
• 42:44
  Gerry Hill: So what, what else are they doing?
• 42:45
  Gerry Hill: That's the one thing I would like them to look at.
• 42:47
  Gerry Hill: Look at that constraint,'cause if you can solve that constraint and identify how to increase capacity into people's calendars, then your marginal cost base for getting that pipeline in front of them is significantly reduced than just going and hiring, ramping and firing.
• 43:02
  Gerry Hill: That's a practical thing, Louis.
• 43:05
  Louis: Yeah.
• 43:06
  Gerry Hill: And it take-- And by the way, it takes seven minutes.
• 43:08
  Gerry Hill: I did it the other day.
• 43:10
  Gerry Hill: I did it for my own customer success team the other day, and we found a massive distortion in, in time, time and deployment So now we've got a funnel that rebalances it all, and now we've got a true h- state of when to hire because we know the capacity is being deployed.
• 43:29
  Louis: That, that's a fantastic tip to end on.
• 43:32
  Louis: Gerry Hill, thank you once again for joining us again on What's Broken in GTM.
• 43:36
  Gerry Hill: Of course.
• 43:37
  Louis: Have a great day.
• 43:38
  Gerry Hill: Thanks, guys
• 43:39
  Simon: Thanks, Gerry.
• 43:39
  Simon: Good to talk to you again.
• 43:42
  Simon: Louis, how would you tie up the conversation with Gerry?
• 43:46
  Louis: So I, I really like that conversation, and it's interesting when we think about it, um, about the economics that he was talking about, uh, when he was saying he doesn't wanna hire people in the UK now for SDR roles anymore and is looking at overseas.
• 44:00
  Louis: I remember when I was at, um, Uberall, one of the first things that I started looking at, and actually it was quite a big internal battle at the time because we had SDRs in Germany, we had SDRs in the UK, and it's too expensive to employ people there and the, the economics don't stack.
• 44:14
  Louis: And one of the things I was insistent on there was setting up an entire service center in, uh, Barcelona.
• 44:21
  Louis: You know, it's, it's a great place, great skills.
• 44:24
  Louis: Costs of doing business are a lot lower and, and that was a big change then.
• 44:29
  Louis: Now I think that's moved on even further since, since those days.
• 44:33
  Louis: But equally it's what impact do those economics have, and how do we then treat the market as well?
• 44:40
  Louis: And that's the other part of that symbiotic relationship.
• 44:43
  Louis: You're looking at the economics, but you're also looking at the market dynamics.
• 44:47
  Louis: And I think that the, the thing that we've really talked about here is the answer is not to shrink, shrink the market until every account looks r- like they're ready to buy, nor is it to waste expensive sellers treating every account as though it is.
• 45:00
  Louis: As Gerry has said on a number of occasions, your list is your strategy.
• 45:05
  Louis: Intent helps you sequence it.
• 45:07
  Louis: Conversations test it.
• 45:10
  Louis: Outcomes validate it.
• 45:12
  Louis: And what I would add is that brand makes sure that the market knows who you are before any of that matters.
• 45:16
  Louis: That's the important point, and we've, we've talked about that a lot, you know, and it all goes back to a lot of the stuff we've covered in previous ef- episodes where we've looked at the work that Burnett and Field did.
• 45:26
  Louis: I think the modern coverage model therefore has to do three things at once.
• 45:30
  Louis: It has to maintain relevance across the TAM, It has to learn economically across the SAM, and it has to concentrate human selling capacity where it can create the greatest return in the SOM.
• 45:41
  Louis: So measure the activity and you will get more activity.
• 45:45
  Louis: We know that, and we've talked about that again, with the Goodhart work that you referenced last week.
• 45:51
  Louis: But govern the evidence and the economics and you have a chance of getting to better growth, and I think for me, that's the salient point.
• 45:58
  Simon: Those are our takeaways for this episode.
• 46:00
  Simon: Thank you so much for listening to episode 58 of the What's Broken in GTM and How to Fix It podcast.
• 46:06
  Simon: Check out our LinkedIn page where you can find show notes relating to the episode, and don't forget to subscribe in your preferred podcast app to make sure you don't miss an episode.
• 46:15
  Simon: Next time, we will be joined by Ian Truscott, managing partner at B2B tech fractional leadership and advisory consultancy Velocity B, to look back at this year's Summer Cognoscenti series interviews, so please join us.
• 46:27
  Simon: Until then, it's goodbye from me, Simon Daniels…
• 46:30
  Louis: and it's goodbye from me, Louis Fernandes.
• 46:32
  Louis: Have a fantastic day and we'll see you next time what is likely to be a more expletive version'cause Ian's back.