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Mindset Work VS. Body Work · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:02
  Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to gay men going Deeper, a podcast by the gay men's brotherhood, where we talk about personal development, mental health, and sexuality. Today, I'm your host. My name is Michael Diirio. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships, and self confidence. Today's episode is mindset work versus body work. We're going to be talking about how they're different, how they're similar, and how they can both help you feel better, and how they can both help you achieve your goals. Joining me today is Vance Hedman. Vance is a certified, somatic practitioner based in Toronto with a passion for connection and intimacy. He works with queer people, socialized as men to work through shame to be their authentic selves. Thank you for joining us today, Vance, and welcome to the show for your very first time.
• 0:49
  Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
• 0:52
  Speaker A: All right, so the reason why I wanted to do this episode of mindset work versus bodywork is, first of all, Vance and I had a really nice conversation via Instagram, and then we kind of continued it on Zoom, and I was very clear, like, oh, we need to. This is a podcast episode because I think it's such an important topic. A lot of our community members and listeners out there struggle with discomfort that is inside of you, that is needing your attention. And this discomfort looks like a lot of different things. We'll give some examples, and when people get to the point where they book a consultation call with me, what I'm looking for is to understand what their discomfort is. Right? So it could be in many forms. It could be the discomfort of not feeling good enough at your core. It could be the discomfort of wanting to pursue your dreams and desires, but feeling stuck or confused or overwhelmed or don't know how to do that. It could be the discomfort of living in a toxic living situation, job or relationship. It could be the discomfort of just feeling lost, stuck, directionless, or not purposeful in your life. It could be the discomfort of loneliness or lacking connection. Or it could just be the discomfort of living with shame or fear. These are just a few of the many common, um, ways discomfort could manifest for you. Now, what happens is this discomfort eventually builds up until it's strong enough that you want to do something about it. And this is usually when people seek help. They'll find a therapist, they'll find a coach, they'll find a group, they'll do a course, they'll sign up for consultation, and then you do it. Let's say you do the coaching, you do the therapy, you do the course to ease the discomfort. But then what happens, at least with me and what I've seen with my clients, is that then there's a whole other layer of discomfort that shows up when we're working together. And they'll say things like, this is hard, this is challenging. I don't know if I can do this. It feels scary. And for a lot of people, this fear in their body is very real. It's a physiological reaction to the idea of having to do something, of having to get yourself out of that comfort zone, whatever that is. And so they'll want to stop. They'll want to say, no, I can't do this. I want to turn around. I want to go right back into that comfort zone where it says comfort zone. But really, I say that there's always discomfort in the comfort zone as well. So, as a coach, for those that work with me, and I'm sure with a lot of other coaches and therapists out there, we guide people through this process. We guide people through this discomfort. And what I noticed, and this is, I'm talking for myself here as well, when I'm going through my own discomfort and growth, it happens and feels very real every time shit starts to get real, right? So, for me, for example, the first time I launched my business, I needed to start putting myself out there on Instagram and doing these podcasts. My body was saying, hells no. You know, shaky voice, sweaty palms, you know, flush in the face. I was stuttering and mumbling and all the things, and I just. My body did not want me to do it. I was feeling a heavy feeling in my stomach. But at the same time, I also wanted to launch this business. Right? So, for someone else out there, it might be the first time you are publishing a video on YouTube for your YouTube channel that you want to create. Uh, for other people, it might be when they're having, um, when they're getting ready to have a very difficult conversation with our partner. And again, it starts to get real. And I'll always say there's the discomfort of doing the thing, the discomfort of the growth, or the discomfort of staying in the comfort zone. Do not let the word comfort zone fool you. It is not comfortable in there because that thing that is pushing you out of it is very discomfort you'll have if you stay in it. So discomfort will always be there. Now, on this podcast, we also talk a lot about listening to your body, the importance of having a very deep, intimate relationship with your body, understanding and listening to your emotions, which obviously is fundamentally important. I agree with this. But this brings us to our million dollar question for today. How do we find peace? How do we reconcile the discomfort of growth and pushing ourselves out of the comfort zone? And also listening to our emotions, listening to our body, and listening to that, our body sensations that are saying, stop. This is dangerous. Don't do this. Turn around. So, I wanted to bring Vance on for this topic specifically because he specializes in somatic coaching. I specialize in mindset coaching, and we both specialize in serving the gay, bi, and queer community. So we're tackling a lot of the same issues from a bit of a different approach. Now, let me be clear. We both have tools in our coaching toolbox that are helpful for both. So, for example, in my coaching library, I have an entire range of what I call emotional intelligence tools that I use for clients who need guidance with understanding their emotions, self regulation, managing impulses, self compassion, very big topic. Motivation, vulnerability, empathy, and so on. And similarly, Vance uses mindset tools in his somatic coaching. Right. So, for this episode, the reason why I want to have Vance on is I'll be speaking mainly on mindset, and Vance will be speaking mainly on the somatic experience. But, you know, this is, uh, a situation where we both use both.
• 6:16
  Speaker B: Right?
• 6:17
  Speaker A: Okay. That's my intro. So, with that all said and done, let's, um, get into it with Vance. So, the first question I have for you, Vance, for those of us, uh, who don't know maybe fully what it is, is the concept of semantic coaching. Can you tell us what that is?
• 6:32
  Speaker B: Yeah, somatic. So, somatic means the body. So it's a lot of general somatic practitioners work with trauma. So it's about understanding how trauma shows up in your body when you go into fight or flight and how do you calm your nervous system? So, specifically for me, because I'm an intimacy coach or sex and relationship coach, whatever, all the same stuff is that mine is all in the context of relationships. So it's a lot of work on shame, which is a form of trauma. So it's learning how whenever you're in a relationship, whether it's emotional or sexual, how that shame shows up, right? And so in the moment when, for example, like, the most common one that I say about my work is body image, right? Which is something that gay men struggle a lot with. So it's understanding that, like, you know, even if you go to the beach, uh, when you go to the beach and you take off your shirt, how does that feel in your body and being aware? So, if you start to get really anxious, and you just don't feel safe, then that's your shame that is coming up. So being aware of that and understanding what you need to do and have the tools to be able to calm your nervous system so you can feel safe in that moment. And that might just be, um, with your friends, but, like, more intimately. If you're, like, you know, about to have sex and that shame comes up about your body image, a lot of guys will be like, this is very common when I work with guys that they say, you know, as soon as I take off my clothes, I can't get out of my head because I'm constantly thinking about the way that I look. And so it's learning, okay, well, how do I feel safe with this person, then? So I can relax my nervous system so I can actually feel pleasure and connection during the sexual experience.
• 8:20
  Speaker A: Yeah. So the. The. In your head, I would say, is the mindset work? Like, what's going on? What are you talking. What are you telling yourself in your brain? What's going on in there? And then what would the somatic work be in that example?
• 8:31
  Speaker B: Uh, so the somatic work, a lot of. So it'd be about calming your nervous system. So if that specific example. Uh, so a guy's in his head, he's fooling around with another guy, he's getting into his head about the way that his body looks, I would say, so stop and be vulnerable enough to be like, hey, can we stop for a second? I'm in my head. Because as soon as you start to, you're in your head. And because your brain is going off being like, this isn't safe. This isn't safe. And because you're afraid of getting humiliated, that's the safety thing, right? You're afraid of getting humiliated or ridiculed or criticized. That's what happens in that experience. And so you need that validation that you're not going to be. So, like, if that's what's going on in your head, I would say, um, so ask your partner to stop. Cause you say you're in your head and say, I'm just in my head about the way that I look. Uh, I just feel really self conscious right now. And, uh. And obviously, so I will. I also say there's not. I always say nothing is 100% safe. Right. So it doesn't mean that by doing that, that person is going to be like, oh, it's great. You're beautiful. I love your body. Like, it might go the other way, but that's a topic of resilience. Right. But so hopefully the partner says, that's okay. I think you're super hot. Like, I'm so turned on. I love your body. Then at least you have that. And you're like, okay, I got the thing my brain needed, which was the answer to the question to make maybe feeling more safe. But usually that's not enough. So I would say start to slow down with sex and, like, really focus on your breathing. Start focusing on the touch and the sensations that you're feeling. Like, get into the present moment. Right. And try to get out of your head. When I go deeper with clients or work with them more long term, I also want to help them figure out what it is that arouses them the most and what their fantasies are and what they like. Because I think we also get stuck in this. Like, we have sex, and it's very. It's the same thing with every guy. And so when you know what you like and what you don't like, then at least you can be like, okay, but, you know, I really like being submissive, so maybe that's what I'm going to ask for. So that will also help me to enjoy the experience more. And again, that's all very vulnerable. And lots of people don't like asking for what they want because their fear of rejection. And so it's a whole process. Right. But the whole point is to always be self aware of what you're feeling in your body and trying to come to that place of safety. So, like, when you said, you mentioned about, like, peace, I would say the peace part is the safety part.
• 11:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. Peace is not about always feeling good all the time. Would we agree on that?
• 11:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
• 11:16
  Speaker B: So I would say yeah, because, like, it's, you know, it's one of those things, like, so, um. Like everything. So even sex is an emotional experience. Right? We are feeling emotions. That's what we're doing. And the reason why men, uh, struggle more than women with, uh, uh, body. Well, not more, but, like, with body image and sex without being able to be vulnerable. That's what they struggle more with, is being vulnerable with it is because we've learned to, like to. Boys, don't cry, don't feel sad. Don't look stupid. Be stoic, be masculine. And so you're, like, shutting down a whole bunch of emotions that want to show up during sex or just an intimacy. Right. And so the vulnerable piece is like, hey, it's okay to feel sad or to cry, or maybe even in sex you feel disappointed because maybe you don't get what you want. But that doesn't mean that, uh, there can't be that connection piece and the safety piece. Right. It just means that there's an ease to the emotions that you're feeling.
• 12:12
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, we talk about what I would call that is befriending your emotions and not being afraid of them. Not being afraid to feel them, ideally. You know, the great thing about doing this in a. In a container, like with a therapist or a coach or counselor would be you kind of get to practice that in the moment. And so that way, the first time you're doing it is not necessarily, you know, on that stage, so to speak, of, like, being in a. In a. In an intimate experience, you can have the practice of learning your emotions, what they feel like in your body. This. These are the things I do. What does this feel like in your body? You know, anyone who watches or has seen the movie inside out, I recommend that to my clients who have not seen it. I make them go watch it. I'm like, okay, go watch this. Just as a way to, like, understand what it means to, like, befriend and understand your emotions. I think that movie. Both movies now have done a great job of that. So how do you reconcile both? So in my. I call that mindset work. Even though we're thinking about our feelings, I still put that, for me, in the category of mindset, because we are thinking about how we process our feelings. We are naming them very clearly versus, you know, I feel bad versus the feeling I'm feeling right now is shame. Identifying it. What is it there for? What's it trying to tell you? What does it need from you? That's how I would go about that situation. Um, and then this. Similarly, you know, you had said getting out of your head, and I think sex is the perfect example. Vance, thank you for bringing that up, because I can be someone who can very much get in my head in those intimate situations. And let me tell you, it's so important that the head and body are aligned in that situation. Right.
• 13:55
  Speaker B: Can I. Can I ask you if it's. If you feel okay with sharing it? So what would. What are common things that you get in your head with. With sex, if you don't mind sharing?
• 14:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes, if I'm not sure if he's enjoying it, like, if it's not clear to me, I will automatically get into, oh, I'm doing something wrong. Like, it's obviously my fault. Right?
• 14:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, that.
• 14:15
  Speaker A: That'll be my automatic thought, now I know better. My automatic thoughts are usually nothing the most helpful, and so I can kind of change it there. And then again, it's just a matter of, like, asking, um, is this okay for you? You know, are you enjoying this? Or do you want to try something else or whatever that might be? Um, so if he. If I. If I perceive there's the important thing there, if I perceive that he's not enjoying, I will turn on myself. Um, and then again, I'll start to get soft immediately. Right. Uh, if all of a sudden I'm starting to feel like that kind of panic sit in or anxiety kick in, then, yeah, that'll happen.
• 14:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then in that moment, maybe because it's like you're starting to feel overwhelmed in your body, that it's like, that's the moment where I would say, hey, can we stop for a second?
• 14:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 14:57
  Speaker B: You know, and I've learned this just in, like, my own personal experience, that there was one incident where I was with this guy, and we're fooling around, and he was getting close really fast, and so he was, he said, let's stop. And then I was like, okay. And so we just started talking. And so we talked for a bit, and then we, like, started flew around again, and then the same thing would happen, but we stopped and we kind of, like, kept going back and forth. And now I realize now, like, doing this work is like, you know, we kind of think of sex as this. It just goes from zero to 100 at, like, a straight incline. And. But sex is actually more, uh, like up and down, right? Like, the arousal goes up and down and we don't need to just, like, because we're so orgasm focused that we're just like, that's the goal, right? So just got to get there and it. When stuff comes up that are like, oh, I'm in my head, or I can't get hard or whatever, that it's like, just take that moment to stop. And then the goal should be just staying in connection and feeling pleasure, even if that's just like, the pleasure is very low on a scale of one to ten for, like, brief periods of time, right. Because you'll build that back up and then the sex gets hotter because when you're, like, letting that continue on and that feeling of safety. Right. So, um, like I say, there's so many guys that I find, uh, you know, do, like, grinder hookups and stuff. And that's great. But I also hear a lot of guys that are, like, nine times out of ten it wasn't great. I'm like, because you really have to be turned on by anonymous sex because that's what it is a lot of the time. And so a lot of us, like, for myself, I need to feel safe with someone. So every time I used to do grinder hookups because I don't do them, I always have to be like, we have to go for a coffee first or like a drink or something and hang out for a bit because I just need my body to feel relaxed and safe with the person. And if someone shows up at my door, no matter what they look like or whatever, I always am like, I'm in my head, I don't know this person. My body is actually speaking. Like, I'm going to be really tense because I don't know this person, which makes sense. And my body is just trying to keep me safe. So I need to like, take more time to feel safe with a person. Whereas I think there's a lot of gay guys too, that, uh, that don't feel safer. They're, uh, they have a lot of anxiety about doing hookups or having sex and, um, they kind of just throw themselves in it and like, get it done and over with because they're just like, oh, I'm so scared. I'm just going to do it in this moment. And it's like, just like, slow down. Like, even in that experience with, you know, even when I have guys that are like, wanting to reach out to work with me, I like, the process is so, like, sometimes they're just like, are you free now? And it's like, oh, my God, like, you have to, like, first of all, honor my boundaries and understand you need to, like, do it at a time where we both feel okay about when to do this. And I understand that it's really hard. And even the process of, like, reaching out and saying that you have some issues with sex and intimacy is vulnerable. But, like, just slow down and take every, like, part of that experience of getting to me as like, I can just breathe through it. It's uncomfortable. That's okay. It's just my body being like, this isn't safe. This has never felt safe for me. But you just slow down and you be aware of the emotions and your feelings. Like, even for myself, I noticed that, like, just in general in life, I feel I'll get really anxious and I'll get into my head about, like, even just life and work. And I'm like, oh, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not doing enough and, or you know, I'm just really struggling with this issue. And, like, in that moment, I just say, stop, slow down. Like, are you okay right now? Is this a crisis moment? No, you're just getting into your head. You need to get out of your head and slow down. What are, like, small little things you can do to, like, start to feel more relaxed and feel more safe in your body and maybe even work to resolve that issue. But, you know, if you just get. For me, anyways, I get stuck in my head and I overthink it. And then all of a sudden, I'm, like, imagining myself just my whole life falling apart. It's like I'm not there.
• 19:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally. I fully get that. And I'm very much the same way. I'm very heady. And this applies not just in sexual or intimate encounters, but even in my own life. I'm looking at the life I want to have the goals in with respect to, like, business, relationships, personal life, professional life. Um, there is a lot of that getting in my own head, feeling the fear. And I always talk about feeling the fear and doing it anyway. But I do want to honor the fact that there are. That doesn't. That's not a blanket solution. There are some times where the fear is real, the trauma response is real, and you do want to listen to your nervous system. You do want to slow down. And that, I think, is the big crux of this episode that I want to get at, which is a. How do you know? This is for our viewers and listeners out there helping them understand, how do they know? When is it time to listen to your body? Let's say you're having a very real fear reaction to something versus when is it the time to push through that fear, to feel the fear and do it anyway? How would you answer that?
• 20:10
  Speaker B: So I would say so where that issue comes up in my work is that there are people out there who experienced, uh, intense sexual trauma and understanding that and how. Okay, so there are certain things, like, you know, if we talk about, like, oh, I feel uncomfortable, my body. Sure. That shame that's coming up. But, like, I always try to say, what is the level of trigger that you're feeling from zero to ten? Trigger meaning that your. Your nervous system is in fight or flight, because either you've been triggered by some traumatic experience that had happened to you before. Orlando, your nervous system is just. You're feeling anxious and not safe. Right. And, uh, so where are you feeling on a scale of zero to ten? Right. And if you're at, like, a nine or ten going into that situation, or maybe even practicing a sexual thing that you and your partner want to explore. Like, that's, you know, you're on the point of being overwhelmed, right. You want to stick to, like, you know, I'm at, like, a five or six, but, like, I'm feeling okay to keep going. Right? Like, that's okay, right? Like, you can. That's what I want to help you, like, breathe through and be okay. Because if you're getting up to a point of, like, understanding, and this also comes with self awareness of being able to understand what that feels like in your body. Right. Like, if you are so overwhelmed, you just need to stop and you need to breathe. And, like, that. Would I be like, yeah, you don't want to get to that place, you know, and understanding. Why is that? Right. Because I work with guys all the time that, like, you know, it's always usually around, like, a five or six, and then we can kind of just, like, even just keep exploring sexual practices, and usually it just naturally gets better. But there are some guys that I'm, like, I can see. Like, I can tell. So in my job, I've learned to be able to tell when someone is triggered. And I've had clients where I'm like, whoa, you're. You're feeling completely overwhelmed, so we just have to stop. Right? And hopefully they do know why that is. And if they don't, then that's where I would maybe help them figure out, like, what was going on there. But that would just mean stop, right?
• 22:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. So I like what you had said about slowing down, not necessarily, like, stop at pause kind of thing. Stop, pause, reevaluate, recalibrate what's going on, and then making the decision, do I want to proceed or not? Um, which is. Which is a nice way to do it. You know, the way. I don't. I don't work in that same way. Like, um. So Vance works. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Vance. Vance works, like, physically with clients? Yes. Like, body to body. Yeah. Whereas I do not have that. Um, you know, my sessions are all done via Zoom here, so it's all very mindset focused. We're not touching and whatnot. But regardless, I still see a lot of people use their emotional reactions as a reason not to do something that they want, that they have said they want to do. I want to do this thing. You probably have your own version of this in intimacy coaching. I want to do this thing, and then when it comes time to do the thing, like, I said earlier, all of a sudden, they stop themselves with the fear. Ill give you an example. Im working with someone now who, on the one hand, really, really wants to come out to his best friend. Theyve been friends for 20 years. The guy is straight. My client is gay. And so he wants to feel closer to him. He wants to, he feels icky when he's with him because he feels like he's lying. He's being unauthentic. He knows he's being unauthentic. It just. It feels really, like, not good for him. So we're working on that conversation where he's going to come out to his friend, and he's at the point where it's time to have the conversation. We've kind of done all of our pre work. He's ready, he's good. But as that time comes, he is starting to now feel the panic, right? The discomfort of the fear of the potential reaction, negative reaction, obviously, uh, or worse, potential for the rejection, which I totally get. So I will see a lot of my clients, similar to this, stall out on their goals because they're waiting for it to feel easier. And that's the part where I'm like, well, it's not going to. There's a point. There's a point. Right? So I agree with you, Vance. Like, you know, you don't want to be at a nine or a ten or, like, you want to be high, where you're going to give yourself, like, a panic attack and, like, overwhelm your nervous system. But you have to have my opinion here. You have to have a little bit of a tolerance for discomfort, a little bit of tolerance for those feelings, even if they are uncomfortable.
• 24:35
  Speaker B: Mm hmm. Yeah. Like, the hardest thing, I think, for myself and what I've noticed, even when I did my training for this, it was a big discussion about. But so I. And I think this is a skill that we all need to get better at because I can see how much we suck as a society because we remember anyways. But it's about repair, right? So that, like, even for myself, like, that is the hardest thing to do. If someone has hurt my feelings and said something or offended me or whatever, it is to be able to speak up and say to that person that they hurt my feelings. Right. And so that level of discomfort. And so I, you know, I'm shitty at it, that I have, like, just stopped talking to people or avoided people. Cause I was like, oh, they did this thing, and I'm really upset, but I'm too scared to actually say anything about it. And so it's safer to just not. And, like, that's normal. It's just, it's, it's the hardest thing ever for myself anyways, and for a lot of people because we just don't want to make anyone feel bad. Right. Um, so we rather sit and feel resentful and angry than actually do that one conversation. But I also say the reason why we're so bad at it is because, and I see this all the time when, like, with my friends and when, like, I try to do it even with little things, is because we are so, uh, somehow in our culture, we learned to say we don't want to feel bad. So I'll say, like, if I said to you, hey, that thing you said to me yesterday really hurt my feelings, then most, like, 99% of the time, that person is going to go, oh, but I didn't mean that. I didn't say that to hurt your feelings. And it's like, I know that, but you did. And so I'm not looking for you to explain yourself. I'm looking for you to acknowledge that you hurt my feelings. Right. And because nothing is ever personal, I think people, we're always, we're always going to hurt each other every once in a while. So that's going to happen all the time. But, like, how many of us, especially as men, even in our friend circles, how many of us are like, hey, that really hurt my feelings when you did that. Or, hey, I didn't really feel included in that thing or whatever, right? Like, I just feel like we never do that. And even when I've tried to do repair, we're really bad at it. And I'm noticing that, like, avoidance is a, is a huge issue with, um, queer men, but probably men in general. Uh, it is so much easier to just avoid the person or avoid the issue than even bring it up. And so we're, like, sitting in these, like, awful feelings about a person. And sometimes I, I've seen this where, uh, like, there's been a person that, like, something happened and, like, six or seven months go by and there's always this, like, awkwardness when you bump into them or whatever. And, you know, and both people know that, like, okay, something happened, now we're not speaking. And then all it takes is, like, that one person to be like, hey, I just want to apologize because I know that, like, we kind of dropped off and it was because this happened and you're like, oh, I didn't know that. Like, I wish I would have known that I was upset and then that it's like, oh, hug, and everything's better. That's like, um, best case scenario. Right. But, like, that's what happens. A lot of times. It's like we just need an explanation of what happened, and usually it is nothing to do with the other person. And I'm like, see that little five minute conversation? Like, we went six months without having that five minute conversation because it was so uncomfortable.
• 28:04
  Speaker A: Yeah. And a lot of people, I think, and I've been guilty of this as well, will make a decision to avoid based on the small chance that that conversation won't go well.
• 28:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:16
  Speaker A: Right.
• 28:16
  Speaker B: And sometimes it won't go well. Right. And. And that's where you're kind of like, oh, okay, this person won't see me and is choosing not to see me. Um, like, I've learned a lot in my life about, uh, like, about feeling safe with my friends and the people in my life. But I. If someone cannot take responsibility for their behavior, even if it has not, again, even it's not personal or anything, that's someone that I have to kind of close myself off to because I'm like, oh, it's not really safe to open up to them because I'm going to feel hurt every time that if I get close to them and they hurt my feelings, they're just going to disregard my feelings and I'm going to feel worse. So I have to learn that. Okay, well, that's just not a person I'm going to actually open up to because I don't feel safe with them. Right.
• 29:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, there's so many things that I want to go. There's so many tangents I have right now. Um, but that word itself, safe, I think, is a very important word, obviously. But sometimes what I see people do is they exploit the word. You know what I mean? Like, oh, this doesn't feel safe to me. And I'm like, girl, you know, like, you're not always going to feel safe. Now, there are times used appropriately and properly. And again, you want to listen to that again, this is the whole point of this episode, right? Finding that balance where you are genuinely unsafe and you need to, you know, set up a boundary or, like, get yourself out of a situation. Absolutely. I'm not denying that. But I've noticed y'all out there, some of you are using that word a little bit too casually and a little bit too deliberately, in my opinion.
• 29:44
  Speaker B: I'll say one like the. For me personally, the way that I think it shows up for me that I don't feel safe, but how I. Okay, so the example is I always feel like if I walk into a room full of gay Mendez, like, let's say it's some, I don't know, function. I don't know, whatever charity function or some shit like that. Anyways. And I walk into this room full of gay men, and especially if I know a lot of them, I feel really anxious and unsafe, I guess, is what is happening in my body. But I'll be like, oh, look at so and so over there. Like, they're not even, like, acknowledging that I'm here. Like, I'm trying to make eye contact, and I noticed that happens a lot. And so all of a sudden, I'll start going into, like, judgment of, like, oh, well, she's a bitch, then. Or, like, she's not nice, whatever. And I'm like, okay, your brain is trying to make sense of the situation because you don't feel safe. But the reality is, like, you could just walk with a person and say hi, and, like, everything usually is fine, and you're going into, like, I'm getting stuck into my head and trying to make sense of why I don't feel safe. But the reality is, like, most of the time, I'm just like, you're now creating stories in your head, and instead of just being like, you know what? There are times when I've gone into. Got to a place, and I wasn't feeling great that night and didn't really want to talk to people, but had nothing to do with those people. Was this more so, like, I don't feel social, so I'm going to, like, maybe kind of stay out of the way. And so that, like, you know, most of the times, it's something like that that has nothing to do with you. Right. And so it's about being like, do I even know? Should I go into these judgments or assumptions? No. Maybe you should just focus on, like, you know, trying to relax into the situation, be okay. If they don't want to come over and say hi, that's okay. Like, you know, it's. I can't judge them for the decisions that they make. They're making some. A decision that's best for them, and that's okay.
• 31:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, you nailed it. I love that. And so I think to answer that question about, you know, the word safe is, you know, ask yourself, is this lack of, you know, is this feeling unsafe coming from a made up story in your mind, or is it something that's more real. And so I love the concept and everything you just said there, by the way. That's what I would consider mindset work. Looking at the stories you're telling yourself in your head and actually, like, picking them out and like, is this true? Is this a factual statement that I'm making, or am I just believing a story that I've made up? And then by believing that story, im creating, like, a lack of safety for myself. And a lot of the time, again, not always, but a lot of the time, thats it. Its, youre creating stories about in Vances example here, people making fun of you or theyre talking about you or theyre talking about you behind your back. And in actual fact, thats not true. Youve just created the story for yourself. And then that story is exactly whats making you feel unsafe. Again, not all of the time, but most of the time that I've seen.
• 32:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think also, uh, like, I notice and I think for myself too, especially like, in queer culture, like, a lot of stuff, we drink a lot and I think that we've learned to use, like, in that situation, I would probably just be like, oh, just have a few more drinks and it's gonna, like, calm you down. And what I'm trying to do now is more being like, well, wait a minute. Maybe I am in a space that, like, I don't really want to be in, right? And like, that's what, like listening to my body and being like, that's what. So, you know, even using that same example, right. I, like, I do, I want deeper, more connected relationships, especially with gay men. But I realized that there are a lot of men that are struggling internally and don't know how to do that. And so I think I used to always try to show up to those spaces and hope and want these people to be able to give me that when they didn't have the capacity for that. And so I would go into those spaces and I would feel left out and not included, and I would leave and I would be mad at them for it. And like, so that would be going into my head and being like, whatever. All this stuff about, you know, judging them and I, oh, they're talking shit about me and their bitch or whatever. And I'm like, but wait a minute. Actually, maybe this is just not the space that I want to be in, right? Like, I do want to go into a space where I do feel safe. Like, there's a difference between, you know, if you go to, uh, like, if you're going to a yoga class for the first time. Right? Um. Like, of course you're going to feel nervous, and because you've never done it before, that's, you know, that's the discomfort, right? Is, well, I've never done this before. I've never won the studio. I I don't know where the change rooms are. I don't know the teacher. I don't. I've never. I'm going to look like shit because I've never done yoga. And so, like, that's all normal. It's like, I've just never done this. Right. But you also want to know that, like, you're going to go into that space and, like, be like, wow. Like, yoga people are really nice. Like, I really enjoyed how the conversations went. I enjoyed how open everyone felt, how nice everyone was. Like, you do want to go into those spaces. And so it's like, this is like, cBt stuff, right? Like, cognitive behavioral therapy is like, what are you actually, like, what is the piece of it that's, you know, is it all in your head, or do you actually have evidence of, you know, like, yeah, these people actually don't seem very friendly and very open, and that's truth. I can see that. So maybe I don't want to be in this space because it actually does really make my nervous system feel really activated, and that's really difficult for me. So, like, am I trying to force myself into a space that maybe just doesn't feel good for me?
• 35:22
  Speaker A: One thing, I love all that. One thing that just hit me that is, I think the same in both mindset work and body work, or somatic work is the concept of slowing down. I think we could both agree that. We both preach. My thing is my mind. All of our brains are on automatic. I don't get to decide the thought I'm thinking before it's happening. It usually happens. And then I look at it and I go, wait a minute, that's nothing. Quite true. So for me, in mindset work, it's literally looking at these thoughts, usually by journaling or by working with a coach where I can show you blind spots or show you, hey, by the way, did you realize you just said that? And starting to look at these thoughts and sentences and beliefs in your mind and starting to scrutinize them a little bit more. Are they true? Are they real? Where did this come from? Whose voice is this, actually? And then starting to replace those with things that are maybe more helpful. So for me, it's about in a situation, let's use that same example, very common for gay guys out there. We just did a whole topic on social anxiety going into a group of gay men, and your mind is going, if it's like mine, a mile a minute. And again, usually this stuff is on pure automatic mode, so slowing it down, noticing, oh, what's like, what I'll tell my clients is when you're having a situation like that where you're feeling nervous, ask yourself. Usually you can't tell the thought level. It's gonna. It's gonna respond first for you in your body. Your body's gonna tell you first. That's where you're first gonna notice it. So, you know, icky feeling in your stomach, sweaty palms, everything I was saying earlier, if that's the reaction, that's usually the first indication that, like, I call that the blinker light, the little red light on the dashboard, like, ding, ding, ding. What's going on in your head? Like, check. Check your mind first. And then if we look in there, it's a whole lot of, nobody likes me, I shouldn't be here. I don't belong here. All of that kind of stuff, like, you know, people are talking about me. And then that's where you can first say, okay, let me see if I can question these or replace it, like Vance had said, with some other things, right? Some. Some other more either neutral or more positive or more helpful thoughts in that experience. Like, this could be fun. I have nothing to lose. Like, I'd only have to stay for a few minutes, and then I can bounce. Oh, look, I see someone I know. I'm going to go over there and talk to them. Finding out how to talk to yourself in that moment, because I feel like that self talk is so, so important in these situations. Now, you could do that, or you could just say, you know what? It's not worth the mental gymnastics today. I just don't have the fuel in the tank to do all this thought work. I'm just going to say, you know what? Not today. I'm out of here. And that's okay, too. I want to give everyone out there permission that you don't have to always work through it. Um, you know, if you. If you're hearing me talk about mindset work and pushing through and feel the fear and doing it, doing it anyway, there are times where you say, you know what? I don't want to do that today. And you approach it and you leave that event, and maybe the next time, you are feeling a bit more resilient and you are feeling a bit more prepared and you do want to push through it. So it's not always going to be the same response in the same situation. I think it's really important that we give ourselves that permission to say, not today, I'm just going to try again tomorrow.
• 38:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Um, I mean, that's the thing. Like, for. Even for myself, like, I'm a very introverted person who likes to a bit more. Deeper conversations, more one on one. And so, like, I'm kind of learning that I'm, like, a lot of times, like, if I'm going to go to a house party or something and I'm just like, uh, I don't feel like doing it. I don't feel like being around all those people and it's, you know, that is my body being like, I just don't have the energy for that because it is going to drain me. Because usually in those things, when it's large groups of people, you know, it's a bit more surface level conversation and that just, you know, takes me out. And so I was also learning that if you go into writing, you're just like, oh, my God, I'm just so done with talking or socializing. It's like, yeah, that's your body, too, being like, it's okay to go home. Like, it's okay to leave.
• 39:20
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, let's, like. It's funny because we. I say the same thing, like, push through it, but also listen. And it is a really a beautiful balance. And the title of this episode is mindset versus body. But at the end of the day, it's not one or the other. It truly is both. And I hope that that's what our audience is getting out of this. I wanted to add thing to that story, though. Okay. Because you just, you just hit it for me. Let's say you do end up saying effort. It's not worth the mental gymnastics today. I'm just going to take myself out of this situation. Do so give yourself that permission to do it. But for the love of God, own that decision for yourself. Do not blame it on other people. Do not say it's because of them. It's because of this. It's because of that. Just say, I'm not feeling it today. Own it. I am not feeling it today. I don't want to be here right now. I am going to choose to take myself out of the situation and I will come back another day. That's the way you frame it.
• 40:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And, like, learn about yourself in that moment. Right? So, like, I always say, the thing about anxiety and you feeling anxious and stuff, right? Like, there are so many factors that could be contributing to it, right? So, like, there's some days where I'm, like, in an awful mood. And, like, one thing, if I don't sleep well, I'm going to be a bitch all day. And so I might be like, this person is like, I do this with my boyfriend and I'm like, fuck, he's annoying me so much right now, and. But then I'll be like, wait, what's actually going on? Like, is he actually knowing you? And I'm like, no, I'm just really fucking tired. I didn't sleep well. Um, I shouldn't say hope he doesn't listen this, but, uh, no, that doesn't. That happens to lots of people. I just see him the most, right. And so, so, like, my mind will just be like, he's, like, fucking annoying. And I'm like, okay, it's just because you haven't slept well. Like, it's, you know, it's other things. Maybe I'd like too much coffee, whatever. It's just, I'm like, I'm just not feeling well. And that's, everything feels that way, but it doesn't have anything to do with besides that one thing. So I think that's about, like, also being self aware of why am I feeling this way? Right? And it could be so many different factors that it's just good to also be self aware of that.
• 41:15
  Speaker A: That's the great thing about working with a practitioner such as yourself or a coach like me, or counselor, therapist. Really, anyone who is, you know, a third party, more objective a view of this is you would bring that experience to them, unpack it outside of the actual experience. So in a different container where you're talking about it from a different point of view, and then you can get to the crux of it, the core of it. So let's say that that event was. This is very common. I'm thinking of a specific client I have in mind. Let's say that that event was very loud, and there was a lot of loud music, and you couldn't really have deep conversations. And there's just a lot of people kind of shouting in each other's ears because it's like a concert or something, and they just don't genuinely don't like that kind of event. Don't like that kind of scene. Aren't in the mood to be shouting at this particular moment. We'd come back and say, okay, cool. That event is not necessarily for you. Next time, let's maybe choose something that is a bit quieter, something that doesn't have that. A different venue, maybe a smaller space, you know, and then you can kind of look at it and actually get to the point of solving the core issue, because you can go to ten concerts and you're still gonna have that same experience, so why would you keep repeating it? Right? So really making sure that your environment is helping you in these social situations, not hindering you, because you could work through it, you could push through it. But there's a point where it's like, well, help yourself. You know, like, help yourself by creating and making choices that are going to be more positive for you, not guaranteeing that it'll be positive, but you can select situations that are more likely to generate the outcomes that you want.
• 42:52
  Speaker B: Do you find that, um. Like, you know, like, I was thinking a lot about this at pride. Um, where it's, you know, events where everyone shows up, like, every gay man in the city or queer person, whatever, shows up to this event and pride. And, you know, and a lot of those events are like, I had a specific person come up to me and say how they were, you know, feeling left out from certain people that were there. And I was like, so, you know, at the. It was at the horse me disco party. So it's a circuit party vibe. There's, you know, dancing and electronic music. And I said, do you. Do. Are you having fun? Like, are you enjoying this? And, you know, they said, yeah, like, I love everyone's here. It's great talking to everybody. And I was like, yeah, but, like, do you like. Do you like house music? Like, do you like this type of music and dancing in this. This environment? Right? And they were like, it's okay. And I was like, maybe this isn't, like, you know, you're trying to fit in with people that, like, are doing an event that isn't really you. You know, I find that a lot of us try to change who we are to go into spaces because we want to feel included, especially with certain types of gay men, I find. And it's like, you know, you really have to learn, like, who you are, what you like, and to not be the feeling of, oh, look, I'm seen by a certain person, or I'm seen in this certain group of gay guys, so that feels really great. But, like, are they really seeing you, or have you kind of changed yourself to fit into that space? Right? Does that make sense?
• 44:32
  Speaker A: Totally nailed it. Oh, my gosh. You're giving me so many bing, bing, bing moments. We could probably do this podcast for a while. But, yes, that makes perfect sense. Um, and on the topic of changing yourself again from. From. From a mindset perspective. Oh, I have a whole transformational coaching, uh, package about, you know, reinventing yourself and reinventing your life. And that legit is about changing yourself. Now, the only way it works, and the only way I've ever seen it work, and I've done this work myself, is you will have to want to change yourself for you. Full stop for you, right? It has to be for you not. Not to fit in, not because you think it's going to be better or you'll feel this is really important. You will not feel better in this new identity. If you do change yourself, you will still have to deal with shame, fear, frustration, anger, loneliness. All that's still going to be there on the other side of it for you. So you have to do it for those reasons where you want to change it for you, and that's it. And so, yeah, I definitely have seen those situations, Vance, and you. It's so hard to, like, decipher over a podcast. I can just tell there are people listening who have specific examples that they want to talk about. And by all means, if that's you, please do reach out to Vance, or I would be happy to talk to you about it. But, yeah, it's. It's so delicate and different for everyone.
• 45:49
  Speaker B: It's. So I will also say that what I've noticed within, with gay Mendez, uh, specifically, is that, I mean, so this is the whole thing of we grew up gay, and so there's this internalized shame. And I always say, too, like, when we think about, like. Like, for myself, I was bullied when I was a kid, and, like, I've learned to say that was abuse, right? Like, that's when we have to understand the trauma of, like, if you're actually getting, like, pushed into lockers or, like, beat up, like, that's abuse that you went through as a kid, right, for being gay, for being different, right? And so you kind of have this, you know, not everyone, but, you know, a lot of us had kind of shittier experiences growing up and dealing with that, or even just the secret of it, right? And then we get to being an adult, and then we're open with being who we are, but then we decide, oh, but I, like, I have to be perfect now because, like, I haven't actually looked at all that stuff that, like, the abuse and the trauma and the shame. So I'm just going to become what is the most likable thing, which usually means, like, changing your body to be, like, perfect, like, making a lot of money, being really successful, having really nice stuff. And the thing, though, that we do is that we praise other people for that. So that's why I think it's really easy to get, like, stuck in that space and not even recognize that, you know, maybe this is actually hindering your ability to authentically connect. Because all of a sudden, look at this. If you get really fit as a gay guy, all of a sudden you get all this attention, but you perceive that as love. So you're like, oh, my God, I'm fitting in. Look how many people like me. Look how many likes I get on my Instagram page. And so if you're not self aware to be like, that stuff doesn't matter, then you're just going to keep getting stuck in that. But what it does, and I've noticed this even with myself, is that all of a sudden you'll feel, or not all of a sudden, but you'll eventually feel like, holy shit, I can't lose any of this because if I lose this, I'm going to lose all those people because the people aren't really liking them. They're liking this image that they put out to everybody. So, like, if you get really fit and get all this attention and aren't self aware that it doesn't really matter and that's not really authentic connection, then you're going to be like, holy shit, I can't gain any weight. I can't stop going to the gym, and it's going to become this. Like, I need to hang on to this, to dear life, because if I don't, I'm going to lose all those people. But what I've also seen, I'll say this last thing. What I've also seen, though, is that eventually some shit is going to happen in your life that's going to be really hard and difficult and you will see who actually cares about you, right? So, like, that's when you will notice that, oh, this never really mattered, you know? And you will see the people that will actually still love you and be there for you and show up for you.
• 48:34
  Speaker A: Vance just told my story.
• 48:36
  Speaker B: Oh, no, no.
• 48:38
  Speaker A: Like, that's my personal story about how.
• 48:40
  Speaker B: I thought you were about to say that.
• 48:42
  Speaker A: No, no, that's me much nailed me in my. In my twenties. That's. That's what it was until my early thirties. People who listen to the podcast know my story. I don't need to repeat it again, but that was pretty much a very good summary of me and my. And my gay life. Um, and mine, too. Yeah. And a lot of people out there. Yeah.
• 48:59
  Speaker B: Like, even I would say that it's only been in the last, like, couple years, uh, because stuff happened with friends that I was like, um, you know, like, I, like, I'm a yoga teacher, too. And so, like, when I got into fitness and, like, I also, you know, struggle with, like, addiction. So, like, when I got into fitness, there was a huge part of it that was about me and being like, wow, this stuff actually really helps me to stay healthy, to, say, soberish for myself. And so it was, like, there was a lot of that, but there was also a lot of, like, attention that came with getting fed. And so I was hanging on to all that stuff. But I got to a point, like, a couple years ago where I was like, I haven't made any, like, gay friends because of this. Like, I barely still have any. I still feel alone. So what the fuck is the point of any of this? Yeah, that was, I think, like, oh, my God, it doesn't even matter if, like, I'm perfectly fit because people still don't like me is what it feels like, or I'm not making, like, any deeper friendships because of it. So I was like, what's the point? Like, yeah, I'm actually going to just focus on the people that have actually already, like, always been there for me.
• 50:02
  Speaker A: Yeah. For me, it was. I did all the shoulds as a gay man. I did all the, all the should haves. So I got fit. I had the beautiful house and the great job. I was making money and going on these great vacations, yada, yada, yada. Had the group of friends on the Insta, the perfect insta image of what the gay life should be. Guess what? Wasn't happy. It's like, wait a minute, I was sold on this, that this was what happy gay life was. And guess what? It wasn't. So. And that's not to say, by the way, that just because someone looks that way, because you could still probably look at my instagram now and think that nothing's changed, but you have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. And all the work is behind the scenes. It is the mindset work. It is the body work. Um, but yes, it is a lot of. So what? And the quote that I love, um, is if you live for people's approval, you will die from their rejection. Right. And so you want to be you want to live for your own approval, first and foremost. And as Vance was saying, those core people, and there's usually just a handful of them who truly, truly matter, matter. Vance, we have just a short time left, and I wanted to make sure we hit a topic that I think is really important for our audience. So, for those of you out there, and I know Vance and I both work in this, relationships and intimacy is especially for both of us. For those of you out there who are wanting relationships, more authentic relationships, deeper relationships, and deeper intimacy, from what I'm noticing, again, my perspective here is that there is an intolerance for a lot of you out there to feel any kind of emotional discomfort with respect to fear, shame, getting, you know, the triggered Im feeling triggered is what we hear a lot. Unsafe, another kind of word for unsafe. Uh, any kind of intolerance for rejection. So weve talked about fear of rejection extensively on this podcast, and for a good reason. I think that that fear is what prevents a lot of people from putting themselves out there, and so they stay isolated.
• 52:05
  Speaker B: Right?
• 52:05
  Speaker A: So this intolerance for potential pain, emotional risk, I call it, putting yourself out there is emotional risk, not physical risk. Let me be clear. Emotional risk will keep them isolated and prevent them from meeting friends, meeting friends, meeting partners, going out on dates, and all of this. So, Vance, considering this is a big topic for both of us, how would you approach this in a somatic experience or in a semantic perspective?
• 52:34
  Speaker B: Well, I will say also that a lot of people have learned subconsciously to, they've learned tools to be able to shut down feelings or to be able to handle, because it's not just that you're like, oh, I don't feel those feelings. It's like, no, you do, but you've learned some way to be able to push it down, like, tell lies in your head or tell a different story about what's going on. Like, there's, like, people have done that, right? So I think so when I work with clients. So even the one of the big thing I try to do with guys is, like, I just try to get them to feel so it might just be even, like, with dancing, just to make them feel, like, a little bit awkward and be like, just feel that. Right. But there's a lot of guys that I work with that, you know, will open up to me about something that actually happened and even get to that place but still feel nothing because they've learned to, like, not actually sit with it. So, like, I have to get to, I have to get them to a place of feeling connected to their body. So, um, that could be through some movement, breath, work, practice. But what I found actually, that happens, uh, more naturally. So, like, if I said to you if you were struggling with, you know, uh, feeling some uncomfortable feelings, like, uh, instead of just. And if you were, like, I could talk about it, but I don't feel anything. Um, I usually, like, practice something to do with intimacy. Uh, and so it could just be like, you know, touching each other or holding each other or cuddling or even, you know, practicing role play stuff. Or it could be, like, even more intense sexual stuff. But for some reason, I found that when I do that stuff with a guy, naturally, it just comes out. And whatever needs to comes out. So I'm not trying to say, like, what's your trauma? You know, and, like, just getting them to just talk about it, it's. It, like, needs to naturally come out, right. So especially when it comes to sexual trauma or just shame about sex, and that might just be, like, religious stuff, right. Or whatever, societal stuff. What a family, whatever. And so, like, I may not even know what that was for them, but, like, I'll notice that there's something uncomfortable that's coming up when we do it. But if I can do the practice of intimacy with them and get them to feel uncomfortable just doing the sexual practice, there usually is a thing that comes out where they say, like, I've never done that with someone, or, wow, I always just hate the way that I feel all the time with sex, and it just, like, comes out naturally. So my. My role as whatever, as their surrogate. Surrogate partner is not to be able to, like, try to pull it out of them, but just to, like, be there for them to let it naturally comes up, come out, and to be there to witness it and to empathize and just to hold space for them.
• 55:32
  Speaker A: I was just gonna say hold space. And so I love. I love that we, we do like you do physical, in person work, and again, means it's more mindset. You can hold physical and emotional space. I could hold mental and emotional space, but still, it's all wonderful. Um, yeah. I would say for, for those of you out there who struggle with this as well, um, that you're finding that, that fear of rejection is so strong. You know, two things. One, you know, the rejection is possible. I'm not going to tell you that it's not going to happen. It has to be worth the risk. It has to be worth emotional risk. And it's okay if you say it's not but again, own that decision and make that a conscious decision to say it's not worth the emotional risk for me. I am going to choose to stay here in my bubble. If that's what you choose, then so. So be it. Choose it and own it, right? If not, if the discomfort of your bubble is so strong that something is kind of pushing you outside of the comfort zone, and you do have to come face to face with the possibility of rejection the way I do it for myself. And please do if this works for you. Borrow. Borrow. My belief and borrow my mindset on this is that I would rather be rejected and face the pain of a breakup, the pain of rejection, the pain of humiliation, knowing that I bared my soul, that I gave my all, that I acted in integrity with my truest, most authentic desire. I would rather deal with that than, for me, the pain and the discomfort of what if. Of that whispering in my mind. Hmm. Could I have done this? Could I have done more? Could I. Should I have done this? Should I have put myself out there? Should I have asked him out? Um, you know, should I have gone deeper? That, to me, is more, like, I would rather deal with the pain of rejection than the pain of regret, personally.
• 57:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think to that, too. A, uh. Like, in a small example, I've learned that, like, if I like someone, I just ask them out, and if they say no, then I. Then I'm like, hey, well, now I know. So I'm like, at least have the knowledge of what the truth is, instead of being like, oh, I like him so much, but I'm too scared to ask him anything. And then to, like, on a bigger extent to that, of, like, when I've had really tough breakups, that in the breakup part, is so fucking hard. It's really hard. And. But once I get through that part, I'm always like, oh, but I loved him, and hopefully we're still friends. And, like, I can think back on, like, the relationship and be like, oh, I learned a lot about myself, and that was, like, a really, like, enjoyable time, and I love that. And so, like, I'd rather have had that than. And go through the pain than none at all, right?
• 58:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's better to have love and loss than not to have loved at all.
• 58:16
  Speaker B: And a meditation teacher once said this to me that made a lot of sense, is that everything has an endpoint. Like, so everything as an endpoint, because you got to die at some point, right? So there's going to be an end to every relationship, to every job, to every house, apartment, whatever. Like, there's going to be an end at some point. So it's when you can, like, realize the truth of that, you can go, okay, so when it happens, it was meant to happen because it was going to happen at some point, and that pain is coming no matter what. Right? And so that's okay. So if you can be in that headspace, you won't be, like, clinging on to things so much because you're afraid of the pain of losing it, because you're like, okay, that's. It's going to happen.
• 59:00
  Speaker A: Yes, all that. And one thing I would add, I've talked about this many times before. I feel like I repeat myself a lot on this podcast for those of you who listen. But it's worth it because you need a reminder. Self compassion is the cornerstone of self confidence. People will say to me, Michael, oh, you're so confident. You put yourself out there. You do all these things. First of all, you have no idea what's going on in my mind. I'm shitting my pants half the time and I'm doing it anyway. And also, the reason why I can do that and put myself out there is because of my very skilled, honed practice on self compassion. I used to be someone who was very much more of a self critic. Self willing. Still do, by the way. I'm not. It's not like I don't. I have very critical thoughts of myself. I can be very judgmental towards myself. However, when you have developed that skill of soothing yourself, self regulating, knowing how to handle these tough feelings, like shame, humiliation, embarrassment, rejection, frustration, stress, all of them, when you can soothe yourself through that, and you have the skill of being compassionate with yourself through that, you are then more willing to take risks, to put yourself out there and to, yes, sometimes experience rejection and pain. And I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's not going to happen. It sucks and you cry and it's awful and it feels terrible. And then guess what? You have the tools in your toolbox to survive, to be resilient and pull through and do it all over again.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker B: And knowing that you have a handful, even if it's like one or two people that will be there to support you if things get tough.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker A: Exactly. Fantastic. Okay, we are at about time. So Vances information is in the show notes. I want to also stress we do not sit out here in this hour, however long it is, to solve all of your issues with respect to intimacy, relationships, fear, rejection, trauma. This is just a podcast episode. I do want to say for anyone out there who is feeling that they, you want to have a further discussion to please contact Vance or myself or anyone, actually, there's tons of amazing people out there, queer affirming who can help you. So right now we have Vance on. So why don't Vance you tell our listeners where they can find you?
• 1:01:19
  Speaker B: Yes. So I think that my instagram link is down in the bio where you can find. You can message me on there, or there's a link to my website, or you can go to my website, which is is vans intimacycoaching.com, which I believe the link will be somewhere in here too. And you can directly message me there and find out a little bit about a little bit more about my work. Yeah.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker A: Fantastic. And my info will be in the show notes as well as always. It always is there.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker A: Vance, I want to thank you so, so much for coming on here today and being representing bodywork and the somatic experience. It was great to have you, and I'm sure we'll see you again soon.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, thanks a lot.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker A: All right. And for our viewers and listeners, please do make sure you are subscribing to this game and going deeper on YouTube. New episodes are released every Thursday. If you're listening to us on a podcast provider, we would love it if you could give us five stars and write an amazing, glowing review about what you've heard here today and check out our other episodes. Okay? Thank you for joining us and have a great time. See you next week. Bye.