Latest / Breaking the ICE / Episode 4 - Lloyd's Story - 20 Years in Insurance

Transcript

Episode 4 - Lloyd's Story - 20 Years in Insurance · Breaking the ICE

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to the Breaking the Ice Podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I am your co-host, Elliot Draga, joined by my other co-host, Lloyd Overton today.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lloyd, how you doing?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all good, Elliot.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm good.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot to mention episode four.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh season one, episode four for uh the millions of followers that we have now.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm one and a half days away from holiday for two weeks, so I'm I'm buzzing right now.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: I the the energy's palpable, Lloyd.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: But are you in that are you in that uh phase where like I I don't know if you're an uh like an early packer, a late packer.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I travel a ton, so I have like a system down where it takes me about five minutes to get out the door now.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um what but I guess it's different going on holiday, right?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So where are you in the packing life cycle?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in fairness, because we got two kids to make sure we can uh you know not leave behind, we don't want a kind of home alone scenario.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: We uh we got most of the kind of clothes type stuff done on Sunday.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we're doing a bit of a road trip as well.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we're coming to your neck of the woods, slightly south in the US.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're going to some different places in California.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, in addition to that, it's kind of at the moment, it's like, right, make some lists.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Have I got the power banks?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Have I got the tickets?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Have I got the the the confirmations?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is the dog, you know, is uh has he been picked up, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where we are right now.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of you know dotting the i's and crossing the t's.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: But we're we're in pretty good shape.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now you've got two teenage boys.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are you sure you don't want to home alone it and just Yeah.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one one one fifteen, one twelve.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So one's not quite there yet.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, maybe, maybe.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the way the 15-year-old was uh over the last couple of days, yeah.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he should be uh left uh left behind.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Very miserable.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of grunting.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, good luck, uh good luck.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe feed that into AI and translate it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um anyways, listen, we have a fun one today.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh particularly fun for me.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's gonna be fun for you, but uh we are going to talk all about you, Lloyd.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so I am uh I'm gonna be mostly a passenger in this one, but um, you know, I thought it'd be great to um, you know, record some of the conversations that you and I have all the time.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, just pick your brain, uh learn a little bit about your uh your backstory, a little bit about how you uh came across the ice guys, um, and yeah, just walk the timeline up to where we are today and and and what's next to me and what's next for all of us.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I guess without further ado, um you want to kick things off?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Tell tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: This this almost feels like a bit of a kind of Michael Aspel moment, actually.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know you won't know Michael Aspel is Elliot, or you might do, but um, I'm hoping he's not gonna come busting through the door with a red book in his hand.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um what who am I?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm Lloyd.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've been with ICE for God, about eight and a half years now.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing the kind of insurance thing for for 20 plus years.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so very much on the kind of insurer side prior to tech sales.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um sold insurance for a bit.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: That was the first that was the first kind of um Fior into insurance.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again, you know, it was very different back then.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when I when I very first moved to Dorset, which is where I live now, I used to uh I used to live in London.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was born in the in the city.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was born and brought up and went to school in the city and then met my wife on holiday.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: She was at Bournemouth University, which brought me down to Dorset, which is a cracking part of the world to live.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it was all quite sudden.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it was all done in a few days.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, right, what do I do?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I go?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I I kind of just approached a few recruitment agencies, and this this insurance company came up and it was the insurance advisory service.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, well, what's that all about?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds a bit interesting.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go have a chat.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was a it was an insurance business, they were selling um insurance primarily to people over the age 50.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was what they kind of specialized in.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really quite cool at the time because when I went for the the job interview, I kind of got walked around the business, and it was at a time when insurance had lots of call centres, lots of departments, lots of people, and they didn't necessarily employ people as kind of the newbie.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: You went in as like a cohort of people.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm new to the area, I don't really know anybody yet.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've gone and joined this business with 20 other people that were all in the same place as me.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a really good way of kind of making some friends in a new in a new place as well as kind of cutting my teeth in a in a different industry.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: That business kind of, a bit like ice really, went through quite a bit of change.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It it turned into from the IAS to RIAS, which is known as RIS, which is a big brand in the insurance industry in the UK right now, specializes in over 50s insurance, and and that business was acquired by an organization called Ageus, which is one of the one of the biggest personal lines insurers in the UK.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um those guys are going great guns, they've just acquired eShore, they're really they're really kind of pushing hard in that space.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I was there for 12 years.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was quite honestly a brilliant time.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a hell of a lot, I made a lot of friends, um, and I took a lot of chances.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and I guess from uh sort of a product perspective, what what types of products were um you targeting?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or were you on offer?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, good, good question.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it was primarily, I was primarily based on on the household side of the fence, but it was it was uh it was uh motor, uh household.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um we offered a number of kind of add-on products, including things like kind of uh home emergency, legal expenses, garden cover.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: We had some kind of affinity partnerships where we were offering things like travel as well, Elliot.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um at the time it was actually done with an organization called Europe Assistance, which uh based out of you know the same place as Collinson, which is what Europe Assistance became.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and I used to have a a bit of involvement in managing that relationship at one point in time, and and and actually a good story about EA um was a visit to their call centre because you know, being based primarily in kind of household doing all things personal lines, hadn't had a massive amount of experience and travel, even down to the point of you know, how's how's it run?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: How do how do claims get done?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: What what's it all about?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to the the call centre and and they'd walked me through and they said, Look, this is our go room back here, and I was like, What's a go room?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was basically a room where doctors can go in, grab some like a D fib, they can grab a load of kit, and if they need to go and be somewhere where someone's seriously ill in a different country, that was where it was.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um they had a call center there, as you would expect, you know, dealing with claims and things like that, and there were two guys there.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy and the guys that I knew at uh EA at the time, they said, Lo, these guys are gold dust, they're really important to us.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, right, why is that?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: They were twins, these two guys were twins, but between the two of them, they spoke like 20 languages.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they always had one of these guys on at any one time, so that they could, you know, they could communicate with different hospitals and doctors and all of those kind of things that were going on within a kind of typical travel claim.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for me that was a massive eye-opener.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was kind of like, Jesus, this is a totally different, you know, kind of claims experience to, you know, hey, I've dropped my TV down the stairs, or you know, I'm having a bit of a dispute with my neighbor, or my my boiler's gone bang.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it was it was really eye-opening for me to see that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually just to come full circle, EA just rebranded as well.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So they're called Readyon now.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um still under the EA brand, yeah, but they had this sort of uh uh global rebrand.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, funny how things come full circle.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess, you know, the the other question I want to ask is did you find that the uh whether it was the products that were on offer or the types of covers within those products that were on offer uh differed because of the unique target market that was that was being offered?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, obviously you're not you're not interested in selling term life insurance necessarily to that cohort, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess how much did the senior category influence the products and benefits that that you were offering?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question as well, actually.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, you're absolutely right.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I was there working in amongst kind of the products and selling it and administering it and things like that, you know, it was very much understanding that, you know, these are a very different, these are a very different cohort of people, as you as you quite rightly described.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're they're totally different to to kind of you know younger people that and because of that, and this is where I started to learn more and more about insurance, it's like, right, well, you know, we're we're quoting a a lower price to these guys because they're a lower risk.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they probably be a bit more kind of diligent over things, they they take a bit more care over things, they're a bit more experienced.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, you know, you start to appreciate kind of what what what risk profiles are like with with regards to insurance.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um But you're right, there there were definitely different ways of going about things working with the the the kind of over fifty over-fifties and and the kind of retired market for sure.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, you know, you you you maybe didn't sell quite as much kind of ski equipment cover and a and a few more kind of you know funeral plans, unfortunately, but it's the nature of the beast, and and people bought them because they appreciated that's the that's where I we are in life, and these are the things we need to be thinking about.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um but equally, you know, I I really enjoyed talking to the customers.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I you know, I really enjoyed doing that, and and actually they were lovely people to talk to as you you know you can imagine.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and on top of that as well, the um the thing that I kind of really appreciated with regards to to working in in that kind of industry was okay, right, so I've I've kind of seen it at the coal face.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do next?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of you know, I'm I'm getting a bit bored here.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do next?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um and this role came up and it was like, right, we we we want to uh we want to get somebody into our underwriting team.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, underwriting, what does that mean?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you could underwriting, undertaker, you know, I didn't go at the time I really didn't appreciate or or even know what it even meant.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I started reading into it and I was like, right, an underwriter.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So an underwriter is someone that is involved in this whole piece around, you know, can we take this risk?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can we take that risk?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is the price we're charging correct?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to take some extra kind of uh steps to make sure someone's got the right cover in place or the or a differing access because the risk is a little bit higher?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, I don't know anything about this.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna do some research, I'm gonna go for the job, um, which I did, and and I didn't get it.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get the job.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I got to the last two, I didn't get the job.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but about a week later, the lady that interviewed me came up and said, you know, we liked you so much, we've made another position because we'd like you, we'd like you to join the underwriting team.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay, cool.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I joined the underwriting team, and then before long, um, you know, I kind of worked in that for a for a while, and we and we brought some really kind of cool things to that team because back in the day it was it was not quite as automated as insurance is right now.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like, right, what can we do to help the guys on the phone with these kind of underwriting referrals?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a panel of insurers that that was kind of um across that that REST business.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you had advisors on the phone kind of calling through and saying, right, well, this person's lives in a subsidence area, but there's no kind of steps or diagonal cracking, there's not this, and you know, and they'd come to us with a with a load of information.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: That would land in an entry, we'd review it, we'd read it, we'd look at what delegated authority we'd got from the insurers.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: We might need to speak to them as well as us, and then we'd make a call on it, whether it's a baloney or some terms added to the policy.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But by that time, the person's kind of, you know, they've got their answer two days later, maybe, and they've gone and found insurance elsewhere.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, right, how how do we stop this from happening?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, we we started to put underwriting advisors within the the kind of um reas business into the call centres.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So actually people could come and talk to us directly and we'd try and get the the answer there and then for them so that they could kind of convert more of these sales.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that was uh yeah, we we we we made some changes and and people like that.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think before that was what it was really.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: If I mean it it's funny because this I I always like to say the analogy of of insurance in general is kind of like peeling an onion.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's the insurance that we consume on a day-to-day basis, and and so there's the consumer lens of of just sort of, you know, I buy something and it protects me in case anything goes wrong.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then as you get deeper and deeper, there's so many different angles uh and and and facets to something that's seemingly pretty simple, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's a policy and it's a claim.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but but there's just so much um I mean, I had the same experience, which is a story for another day, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: But but just, you know, how we interact with insurance as a consumer versus the reality of how dynamic it is behind the scenes um are totally different.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so uh your underwriting.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um what happens next?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we did that for a while.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: We we tried to incorporate some of these changes to streamline some process within the business.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is way before being able to do the sorts of things we're doing now, Elliot, around kind of automating process.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was just thinking about how we could do things a bit differently just to help the organization.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what happened next was I I used to liaise very closely with what was called the commercial management department, and these guys were the ones that were liaising with the add-on suppliers, the insurers, and a number of others.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: One of those insurers being a GS who obviously owned our organization because we were the kind of customer-facing brand of that business at that time.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there was a lady that went on on maternity leave, and I thought, right, well, why not?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go again.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's just see if we can get up there and work with these guys.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I got the job there, so I I kind of again stayed and the the second one ended and I carried on within that team.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't go back into into underwriting from that point on.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that's when I started to realize and appreciate just how connected insurance is, not necessarily just from a kind of business perspective, but from a people perspective.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now I'm talking to everybody kind of outside of of RES and AGIS, and I'm I'm making connections with the likes of Aegeus and Negal in General and AXA and a whole host of other insurers, EA, you know, a whole host of other insurers, and some of these people I'm still connected with and friends with now, you know, and it's it's from from that perspective, insurance is a brilliant business.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a people business, it's a relationship business, and I'm glad that's not changed.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's still very much, it's still very much the same way now.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one of the things that Aegeus did at the time is there was uh amongst kind of Rias being this this kind of retired specialist in kind of personal lines insurance, you had some other brands out there called Saga.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you had another brand that was an offshoot of of Rias set up by some people that were within that business called Castle Cover.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um and at the time, Aegeus was like, right, we want to kind of we want to dominate the space, right?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna buy, we're gonna acquire Castle Cover.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So they acquired Castle Cover and they put the two brands together.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of to the things we've been going through in terms of Ice Insure Tech and NIST now becoming Ice Tech.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, when that happens, it takes some time to bed in, it takes some time to realize who's doing what and and and what what the direction of travel is and smooth things out over a period.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um but over that period of time, all that did was is give me exposure to even more insurers.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and interestingly, there was some as much as I love my time at Ageus, and I still talk to people there now, and I've got a good relationship and fond memories of of that business and and my role there.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um basically what happened was is they they decided actually that you know we don't want to work with the panel anymore.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: We we want we want to write this business solace.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they they kind of they kind of serve notice on the on the panel, which by that point after the acquisition of Castle Card was huge.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big it's a big panel of insurers.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um went down to Aegeus and I'm kind of there thinking, commercial management, managing a sort of you know, a kind of portfolio of insurance businesses that are all going, you know, what am I going to do now?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I kind of I didn't want to go back to to kind of doing what I was doing before, so I was kind of like, right, what's next?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I started having some conversations with one of the insurers.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I started having some conversations with an organization called Canopius, and they were kind of progressing positively over a period of time, and they were kind of like, you know, how'd you fancy having a go at setting up an over 50s direct proposition for for us?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, geez, I don't know.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I can I do it, can't I do it?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was again it was another one of those kind of fortuitous situations, and I thought, what the hell?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's give it a go.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's give it a go.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I kind of said to those guys, and I had a great relationship with the Canopius guys, and um and I said, I can't do it on my own, you know.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna need to be some other people involved in this, um, you know, to make it a success.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: They said, Look, you bring some people to the table, we'll we'll have a conversation, we'll see where it goes.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it we did.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: We were we were having meetings in Dorchester and London and different places, and we put a business plan together, and we'd done a whole host of other things, how we were gonna market it, how we were gonna and all of those things that we put to them, and they said, Yeah, good, let's go, let's do it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was a bloody frightening time for me though, because because actually I'd worked for that a GS business for 12 years.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'd just had my second son, um, George.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was young at the time.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: My wife was on maternity leave, and I'm thinking, my God, what am I doing?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and do you know what?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm a pretty chilled, laid-back guy.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we went out one night once I'd said yes, and and unfortunately was put uh well, you could say fortunately, unfortunately, I was put onto garden leave.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: We went out for dinner one night and and I just I started hyperventilating.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I had a complete full-on panic attack.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I had a complete panic attack in a pub on Mother's Day, and remember I remember it vividly.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I went into the car park and said, My God, what is going on here?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and my my wife got in the car, she drove us back.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized it was just, you know, there were just so many things converging at one time, uh, especially being, you know, dad, dad to a second child and stuff like that.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but again, it was it was good, it was successful, it was worth taking the chance.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then so Canopius did that eventually to ICE.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to know how you came across the ice business, yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: It it it did.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So Canopius was a shorter stint for sure, it was a couple of years.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we did, we got that, we got that business live, we were trading, um, you know, it was it was working.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think in fairness, what what happened was is you know, Canopius, in fairness to those guys, they're a cat risk Lloyd's underwriter.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they are now number one as I understand it.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think they were probably something like six or seven when I was there.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, they they're insuring everything from Chinese power stations to satellites to personal, you know, to warranty.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: They they do everything as you would expect a a proper large Lloyd syndicate to do.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, someone came in, didn't really like that kind of UK retail piece as much as we did, um, and they they sold it to to A-Plan.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, it was kind of stay and do a job within distribution in in Canopius and at Lloyd's, or go down to to Oxford and A-Plan.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and at the time, you know, we all you'll know this, Elliot, as well as a number of people in the market.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Lloyd's is a great place, it's a fun place.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I loved being there.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I loved all the traditional elements of it.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I took my granddad for a walk around the Lloyd's building, which I've got fond memories of.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, bless him, he's he's gone now.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but one thing that they they are a bit resistant to is change, certainly, when it comes to the different ways of trading.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and and we've talked about this uh at some lengths in the past as well.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of thought to myself, right, I I'm not sure, you know, what's next.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, we used a piece of software to get that product live.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was a startup organization at the time.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I had it was just a the timing was just perfect again.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I had some conversations and it was kind of like, how do you fancy selling um insurance IT uh into kind of insurance businesses?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've worked in insurance, you you you understand the lingo, you can talk to underwriters, you can tell them how great it is at being able to get products live quickly and all of that kind of good stuff.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought about it and I thought, yeah, do you know what?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's try this one too.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go again.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I I went and worked for this organization for a couple of years, um, enjoyed it, but I think you know, you've got to be, you've got to be in the right mindset and probably the right time of life to be able to kind of really grab a start-up kind of mentality with both hands.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, I had two young kids.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: They were kind of going after opportunities in the UK, in America, in Europe, and and it was all very exciting.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it at the time it just it didn't really suit me.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't really suit me.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one of the guys at Canopius who I knew really well, who who's actually at Pen Underwriting now, a good friend of mine, uh chap called Rob Morris.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: He were he's married to a lady called Denise, who runs uh a recruitment agency called Highem's Recruitment.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and she'd had some good conversations with uh with Andrew.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think they go back sometime.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew's obviously the CEO and founder of ICE.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, look, you know, don't know if he's he's up for a conversation or he's doing anything different at the moment, but reach out to him and and and have a chat.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and Andrew did, he kind of reached out and linked in, and and I think he still kind of reminds me to this day that I I think I blanked him for a for a bit longer than I probably should have done.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we uh we we did we did finally start exchanging messages and he said, Look, just come in, come and meet the guys in in Camberley.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's tell you a bit about the business.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're definitely in a different place to to where you are right now and the organization you're working for.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I did.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I came into Camberley, met met Al Robertson, I met Lynette, I met a number of other people at ICE, um, and they were kind of talking to me about their kind of direction of travel.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just been acquired by actress in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: The in the November, I think I'd gone in in like the March or April.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd heard of actress too, which which was good.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that was kind of my journey to working with ICE, really.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I did, I just looked at it and thought, more established, been around longer, definitely more stable in terms of you know, we know where we are, what we do, what we do well, and where we want to go next.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, with that kind of actress backing, I thought, you know what, this is this is a bit of me.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: This this I I fancy this.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can see this business really going places.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so, okay, so you joined post acquisition.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: How big was ICE at that time?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: ICE at that time, um, don't quote me exactly, but I think it was turning over something in the region of about four million.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there was probably something in the region of about 43, 45 people there at the time.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of familiar faces, but you know, it was it was just that they'd landed they'd landed ERS by that point.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think there were some conversations ongoing with with the AA, um, there were some conversations going with Ticker, but you know, the the the boom bit hadn't really happened at that point.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um I could see that it was I could see that it was it was possible.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so how many years now have you been uh with ICE or or yeah, I mean leading up until the merger?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Eight eight and a half years.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been with ICE for eight and a half years.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again, it's interesting, you know, I I kind of criticize myself somewhat here.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of I I thought at that point in time, oh I've got the insurance t-shirt, I've got the kind of IT sales t-shirt, I'm just gonna roll in there, it's gonna be easy, I know everything.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you just don't.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't think you do in any in any role you do, and and I've learnt a huge amount um working at ICE in terms of you know, that startup mentality is just let's just do let's do anything we can to win the business.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, that we we just gotta everything was kind of rushed and fast versus enterprise sales.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I just couldn't believe some of the the numbers involved, some of the kind of ways in which you engage.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't believe some of the kind of lead times on some of the bigger insurers and things like that.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some some different tactics that I wouldn't have even thought of.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, you know, I'm eternally great.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've I I think I taught you before about really enjoying everywhere I've worked, actually.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I have enjoyed everywhere that I've worked.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I'm not just saying that this because I'm ice now, but I I love the business, it's fantastic.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and to be a part of something and see it go from something here to what we are now with the merger that's now complete, and I still think there's loads of runway left for us.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Loads.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, more so now than six months ago, and certainly more so than six years ago.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny though, just thinking about what you said.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I've uh so I've been in tech for a long time, and I think the reality is when when you're in it for a long time, you live many lives because there's this innovation cycle that happens and these, you know, big sweeping changes that happen that they either force companies to exit or they force companies to redefine themselves.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I I noticed that, you know, across 15 years, there were these sort of big epochs that happened, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: The way that software was built, the way that it was distributed.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, I think you know, you joined ICE at a certain point uh in that innovation curve, and and then the next big swell happens and and and the business changes, but then also, you know, being on the commercial side of things, how you represent the business changes and how you represent um, you know, what solution you have on offer.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a big testament, you know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you think about the Actorist group in general, uh, or the Actorist platform and then, you know, the the subsidiary companies.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the longevity of those companies is pretty impressive when you think about the the the big milestones in tech that companies have had to go through, platforms have had to adapt to.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's it's pretty it's pretty impressive.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: It really is, and and actually that's that's a good point.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, when I joined ICE, it was interesting to to be selling the ICE platform whilst my wife sat in the the room next door on the actress platform as a user, you know, and and David McDonald made us stand up at a party we went to at Christmas once.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was you know it was interesting to see that and and actually to understand a bit more about what what they did because you know I'd heard the name but didn't know everything.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um but equally, you know, I I I like competitors.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need them, you know.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Insurers are kept on their toes by their clients and their customers and and other insurers, you know, coming up with innovative ideas in the exact same way as I think we do.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're definitely driven by insurers and and the end customer for sure in in how our platforms operate and work.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, to to be innovative and to to be you know to go after different markets and to make sure we're kept on our toes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: We need competitors.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that and actually it's it's interesting to, you know, I'm I'm looking into the market as much as I am for new opportunities into what competitors are doing, just and kind of feeding that information back into ice, just because I think, you know, it's good.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's healthy, healthy competition's good.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, again, I mean I think I think we all want to do the right thing and and the best thing for the market, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I I actually I agree with you.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good thing.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, um it I think it it helps to be a bit of a a signpost or a a guiding light.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: What is the direction of travel, where are things heading?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so maybe that's a great segue into the phase that we're in now.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously the merger is about six months old.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um how are things going now?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where do you see things continuing on in the future?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, one of the things I would say I I saw quite a lot of in the first few years of ICE was we've got a fantastic team of people.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: We seem to get it right every time.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: It always goes in and gets delivered, which is something I quote, you know, in spades now when I'm talking to new opportunities.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really good tech.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the the claim system, when I, you know, when I originally walked got the claim system walkthrough, I'm like, what bloody 300 screens plus.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, my God, you know, the the the depth of a claim system versus a policy system was a bit of an eye-opener for me as well, just in terms of all the different workflows that exist there.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I kept kind of going to kind of events and things like that, and and people say, ICE, I've not heard of ice.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, God, why haven't these people heard of ice?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like genuinely, I've come across like three or four different platforms now, and these guys are light years ahead, you know, really are.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, that that was a bit of a journey.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we we would we would we were really desperate to win a tier one.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: We got round the table at a insurer I might have spoken about not that long ago.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we we done that a couple of times.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: We were the bridesmaid a couple of times, more more times than I've I would have liked, actually.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but you know, we kept knocking, we kept trying, you know, we we got very close on one and didn't give up, and we um we won that.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So all of a sudden, you know, I can remember having this conversation with Andrew, and and and he said, you know, we'd like to we'd like to do something outside the UK, we'd like to win a tier one, and we'd like to do something commercial.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we cracked all of those three things in pretty quick succession, actually.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was over the course of like 12 to 15 months we'd we'd ticked all those boxes.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was a it was a hard slog and we'd we'd been through the mill on a few of them and lost out on a few.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the good thing is, is once you get that kind of tier one, well then all of a sudden it's it's easy to get the next tier one, you know.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we worked with RSA and then that definitely helped us win Aviva.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we done some stuff in commercial, which then you know puts a focus within our business on some functionality that exists in that kind of mid-market commercial space from an MGA perspective.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Things that value add to ice but don't tread on the toes of actuists.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then of course, you know, when you go outside of the territory, it's like, right, well, where have you deployed ICE?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Some have only deployed it in the UK.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, no, actually, you know, we've got a customer in New Zealand now, we've got a customer in Ireland now.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an easier decision then for that customer in, say, France or Greece or Italy to then go, right, you guys have done it.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know what, you know what it takes to move into a new territory.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just an easier decision for them to make.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been it's been for me, it's been just as much fun in kind of you know helping generate a greater awareness of ICE and what we do as as it is, as it has been from actually selling the solution.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think you know, if you ask me what what's next, like you, I think, you know, the the pipeline's good.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: People definitely do know about us now.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we're talking to lots of people, we've got a very credible um story to tell.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's great what we're doing in the in the kind of AI space.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're ahead of of a number of our of our competition where that's concerned.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're in a in an interesting time in the market right now, um, because you know, a lot of people I'm talking to are saying similar things to me in terms of, you know, it's it's great, pipeline's good, conversations are positive, but you know, making that final decision is somewhat slower than it's it's than I've seen it over the last couple of years.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, for me, I think we're gonna win more tier one organizations.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are gonna help us in terms of you know territory expansion and and some of that good stuff.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, we cover more bases than we've ever covered before.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the fact the two businesses are together now, again, you know, if we come back to my point around having a better story to tell, we've got a better story to tell.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're a bigger team, we're turning over more business, we're in more territories.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it so I just see it as a big positive.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I look forward to where the next three to five years um goes for us.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think uh I was surprised to to hear that you didn't mention, you know, becoming a full-time podcaster.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because, you know, as this rocket ship continues to soar, uh, you know, we're gonna get very busy, Lloyd, you and I, with this.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, I think I posted the podcast the other day, and so I can't sound I can't stand the sound of my own voice.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um as long as everybody else likes it, it doesn't matter, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean I said my wife probably doesn't, um, but you know, that's yeah, me, you, me and everybody else, I I would say.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I'm really enjoying it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's good.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's I like the kind of I like the kind of relaxed feel about it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to tell a story, uh it's good to have some fun, and and I and I I've enjoyed having other people involved as well.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and I think actually we've got a lot to talk about.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's been fun.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well let's talk about.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I just want to, you know, before we sort of wrap up here, just echo uh yeah, it's a it's an exciting time that we're in.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think ton of opportunity.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's a ton of uncertainty that's weighing over a lot of markets.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just uh not just the insurance market.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I mean my my my background is actually uh in the uh produce world, believe it or not, fruits and veg.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there's just a tremendous amount of uncertainty in in that marketplace.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: You've got tariffs that are on, tariffs that are off, you've got um climate that's impacting uh crop yields, you've got so I think I think just with the with the way that the the world's changing rapidly and how interconnected it is, I think that there's a ton of uncertainty.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and obviously from a tech standpoint, um, we're still in the early infancy stages of AI, and uh people are are are using it now on a daily basis and and quite ubiquitously.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people are using it all the time, but I still think it's it's an unpolished diamond.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that uncertainty is is is clouding everyone's ability to really uh you know chart a path forward and make a decision and stick to it.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Four or five years ago, it was I know that I need to make X investment to yield Y return.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and now everybody's just sort of like, I don't know.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I we need to recalculate everything.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: We need to, we need to, you know, go back to the drawing board because we can't clearly or definitively predict what what the world is gonna be in five years.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're stuck in that sort of haze right now, but I absolutely think, you know, what we're doing uh as combined business right now is um certainly on the right path.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're we're working dynamically with one another.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's very, very exciting to to think about where we're gonna be in in three to five years.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh, you know, I do look forward to uh you know retiring and just doing this podcast full time with you very soon.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, Lloyd, uh I I know you were kind of felt on the spot today, but uh really enjoyed the conversation.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I'm sure everyone else will as well.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you've got a couple weeks off now, so go enjoy your vacation.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll hold down the fort here and uh look forward to uh I don't know what episode it'll be when you're back, but uh yeah, two or three, uh two or three episodes from now.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Be great to have you back.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers, Daniel.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's been great talking.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, uh.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, everyone.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Bye guys.