Latest / Unstuck Pod / Service Operations Not Lineups (Shannon Vander Meulen and Jamie Schneiderman)
Transcript
- Jamie: Hi everyone, welcome to the Unstuck Pod. I'm here today with Shannon Vander Meulen from Waitwell. ⁓ And really excited to have her today and have her share her journey ⁓ and more the business and great having her for a fun conversation. So welcome, Shannon. Shannon Vander Meulen: Excellent, Jamie. Thanks for having me. Jamie: So can you do me a favor, please, for who's listening, watching, tell them about you. ⁓ where did you come from? What were you doing before? How did you end up where you are right now as a founder of a company? And let's talk about that. ⁓ Shannon Vander Meulen: Well, it pretty much all happened completely by accident. It's really kind of a fluke that I'm sitting where I am right now. In 2014, I bought a business with my husband. So we actually bought something called a registry office. So depending on where your listeners are located, they probably go to a government office to renew their driver's license or to take a road test or something like that. In Alberta, we do all of that at a registry office. And we also do things like birth certificates. We can incorporate companies. We do all sorts of things at a registry office. ⁓ bought one of those. So actually one of the busier ones in Alberta. And we always struggled with like, how do we match up people who walking in the door with the right clerk who can help them? So you have seasoned clerks who've been doing this work for 20 years and they can do anything. They incorporate a company, ⁓ they do a legal name change. They know all of the stuff. And then you have people who've been there for a few weeks that really just know how to do a simple renewal on a car registration. And so people up with the right person and getting people in and out as quickly as possible is kind of like how you make a successful registry office work. And we always struggled with that. And then, of course, in 2020, the pandemic hit. ⁓ that happened, it was just mayhem. we were ⁓ we got things got really slow and then things started to open up again in the summer of 2020. ⁓ all of a sudden, people had all of the services that they had put off doing. Everybody needed things done right away. ⁓ And we had to figure out a way to keep people six feet apart. And so I had my, one of my teenagers was working for us and his job was literally to stand at the door and keep people, you know, six feet apart and manage who was next in line. And I was, and I'm watching this and I'm thinking, and everybody's looking at their phone the whole time. They're just glued to their screens. And I thought, you know, if only they could just join the line on their phone and we could send them a message. And then of course, My service operations was like, and connect them with the right person and maybe ask them some questions while they're waiting and make sure they know what they need to bring with them. that's kind of how WaitWell started. Jamie: No, I love it. That's a that's the like, ⁓ what a great I mean, it's funny, right? So many people look at the pandemic as being this awful, terrible thing. And I'm not doesn't mean it wasn't an awful, terrible thing. But I think what's fascinating is about how you saw an opportunity to do things way better in normal times as a result of this unique chaotic period that we were going through. Shannon Vander Meulen: Yeah. Well you know, it was a chaotic period, but I think it will look back on it also as this sort of inflection point where people became much willing to try something new because ⁓ it blew everything up anyways, right? So you know, were like you know, so now I've got to learn how to scan a QR code. OK, well, I guess I better learn how to scan a QR code or else I'm not going to be able to get in line. You know, The adoption things like delivery services and you know, Ubers and digital transformation across lots of service industries really took off during that period. And I think that's something we'll probably look back on as ⁓ one of the silver of COVID. Jamie: That's a good perspective. Okay, so let's leap forward. Okay, so you have this, say epiphany around, wait, maybe there's a better way to do what we're doing. It happened six years ago, ⁓ as ⁓ at least an initial way of thinking. Let's forward to where you're at now. So you had registry. Shannon Vander Meulen: Yeah. Jamie: ⁓ so where people, so do you still do that? Or is it now you're just doing it, like ⁓ moved on from that, and now it's just wait, well, how does this fit together? Shannon Vander Meulen: Yeah. So we moved on from that in 2023. So from 2020 to 2023, I was running a very large, busy registry office in Alberta, as well as trying to get the startup off the ground. And in 2023, I kind of realized that it was probably time to make a decision about which one I was going to focus on. And so we were lucky to find a buyer who already had a lot of registry experience and was able to take that over and with a very kind of smooth transition. So we let go of that in 2023. A lot of my heart is still in that space. You know, I love going to one of our biggest markets that we sell into is DMVs in the US and other DMV like type, you know, county offices, tax collectors, that kind of thing. And I love going to their conferences and chatting with with those folks about. service delivery and service optimization and what they're doing to make things more efficient. there's still, ⁓ know, I still feel a very strong connection to that space, but I am wholly focused on WaitWell. And have a team of about ⁓ 15 right now. We've got a few extra bodies in the office right now, because we've got, ⁓ it's so we just started our internship program. All totally located in Calgary, so we're... In the office, we do kind of a hybrid type work, but we're in the office three days a week and just really sort of enjoying ⁓ the company into something a lot bigger than what it started as, or a lot bigger than my vision of it when I started it. Jamie: So before we get into that and your vision and where you want to go and where you're at, do people have to look at their phones and figure out where they're allowed to sit and how they can come in and out of your office when they go? Just kidding. Shannon Vander Meulen: We do have a visitor management component of the product. So you could use our product, for example, if you just need to keep track of who's coming in and out of the office, which we actually do as part of our SOC compliance. ⁓ So we do have a... We do, but we actually, to be honest, don't have a ton of visitors to our office because most of our customers are actually located in the or even in ⁓ other areas the world. So we don't actually see our customers face to face very often. Jamie: Okay, interesting. Yeah, and again, back to your point about COVID and one of the benefits was that everybody learned to communicate remotely in a much more comfortable way so that you could interact with people all over the place. I mean, people had companies that had customers all over, but I think it's even easier to communicate with them now, more comfortable to communicate with them now, much the same way that you and I are without meeting in person. that's a good thing. ⁓ Shannon Vander Meulen: Sure. Yeah, exactly. But I think that's part of the reason why we really like having our people in the office too, is that, you know, especially the customer facing folks, they spend so much of their time on Google Meets or, you know, maybe on the phone, you know, primarily Google Meets with their customers who might be located in, you know, California or Rhode Island or Nevada. so I think for them having those few days a week where they come in and when they have, you know, when we're doing Scrum or when we're doing, you know, as a training session or ⁓ Jamie: Mm. Shannon Vander Meulen: you know, an all hands meeting, just to be able to, you know, like eat a piece of pizza beside the person that they're working with. I just, think that that means a lot. I think it's great to really break up that remote nature of work as well. Jamie: Yep. I agree completely. It's especially after you work in a world that we were in talking about the pandemic where people were separated. It's a good reminder that it's great to be around people. I actually think to your point, the balance between the two is the sort of the best of all worlds. It gives you all the efficiency without losing touch of like humans. Right. So very good. I love it. So let's talk more about your Shannon Vander Meulen: Thanks. Sure. Jamie: where you want to go with this, right? you know, called Waitwell. So everyone's going to think about queuing up for, ⁓ know, in line. But is that ⁓ Is there more? ⁓ how do you think about this? What are the problems that you're solving and ⁓ are you headed? Shannon Vander Meulen: Wow. Jamie, you just got to the crux of what we're talking about on a daily basis right now, which is around positioning. yeah, we started out as, it's kind of funny because my first business case was really like, there were other virtual queue systems out there. And so my partner really challenged me to say, OK, well, what's going to be different about our queue system? And my initial positioning was actually, we're going to be simpler than all the other queue systems. We're just going to be bare bones, very simple, easy to use. Jamie: you Shannon Vander Meulen: We're not going to have a lot of bells and whistles. The funny thing is that I would really say that where we ended up was exactly the opposite of that. What we ended up with was the most robust, the most configurable Q system on the market. ⁓ the reason for that is simply that we listen to our customers. So we would have customers that would say, they would just have very unique needs. Like, maybe we don't want people to join the line from home. Maybe we actually want them to ⁓ to be on site before they join. Can you make a feature that forces that? Maybe we want people to make an appointment and then we want them to check in when they arrive, but we only want that to be allowed within 15 minutes and we want the messaging to look like this. So we kind of leaned into these sort of being able to meet the needs of very unique service organizations. And what I've learned is that almost every service organization is really unique in their needs. ⁓ But to do in a way that we try to build everything as a feature so that it's available to everybody who comes onto the platform. So rather than building something for the state of Nevada or for our, know, our CMP equipment or whatever, we would build it so that it was a feature that was available to us. So we ended up with this like highly configurable, highly robust queue system. But then customers were asking for other things. So they would share with us, okay, great, we have this great queue and booking system now. It's really configurable. It meets our needs. perfectly, but we're working with this really archaic staff scheduling system and they don't talk to each other. So we built a staff scheduling system that interacts perfectly with the queue system so that when people are scheduled, it creates the availabilities and it's just all very seamless. So now we have a staff scheduling product. had customers that would say to us, well, know, it's great that people can get in line or make an appointment, but you know, sometimes they don't show up and it's because they have no, you know, there's no accountability. accountability, there's no, you know, they haven't paid anything yet. So we'd really like to be able to collect a deposit from them. So we built a payments. You know, I already alluded to the fact that we have a visitor management module. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, we've really kind of outgrown the name WaitWell, really what we are is a service operations platform. And that we know we're growing next is really dealing with that sort of I don't know, of existential question of like, who are we really? What do we really do? Because we don't really just get rid of lineups. And that is easy thing to lean into. Everybody understands lineups. Everybody hates them. It's easy to talk about being a company that gets rid of lineups. But really, at the heart of it, what we actually do is optimize service operations. Jamie: This is very, this is like, sorry, you have my brain going a million miles a minute when you're saying this is fantastic. It's, it's exciting and interesting. So, so let, let's talk about, you've gotten to this really interesting place where you said we've listened to customers and almost everyone will tell you listen to customers. which is good. ⁓ So well, yeah, of course, listen to customers and then, and then, Shannon Vander Meulen: That's so true. Everybody says that. Jamie: You know, so where's the balance? So where's the balance? Where's happy place between listening to customers reacting those customers or listening to customers and stopping? ⁓ I it sounds like you're going through this, you're living this ⁓ kind challenge or question as part of this thing on a daily basis too. Shannon Vander Meulen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's a really good point because you really do have to balance vision for your company and the product roadmap that you've set out against what customers are asking for. know, Like there's a famous quote from Henry Ford about know, if I'd listened to my customers, I would have built a wagon or whatever. You know, it's often cited. I think that that I think that that can be interpreted a little bit too precisely. I don't think that Jamie: Yeah, I guess, sure. Shannon Vander Meulen: the meaning of that is don't listen to customers. It's so important to listen to customers. you do also have to balance where you're headed as a company, because otherwise you can go down a rabbit hole of, okay, so this year, what did we do to the product roadmap? Well, we didn't actually advance the product roadmap, but we created 870 unique features. And those are both really important. And so, you know, I think we our development team really makes a effort to their time every year at the beginning of the year, our strat plan, we divide you know, a percentage of our time that we're going to spend on you know, customer related requests and enhancements versus moving our product roadmap forward. Those two things are really important. And you're right, they can be somewhat in opposition to each other sometimes. Jamie: So let's start first, because you've sort of thrown out there is a area or, you know, like a thing I'm trying to figure out. want to, ⁓ we come back to it, but I want to, you know, obviously you got lots of customers and they're asking for things and they like you and they want more. So there's a lot of good, there's a lot of really, really good. So let's talk more about what's gone really well as you've done this, because you had a vision. You built at least your initial simple product that's become a lot less simple over time and that's, and that's okay. Um, and you've started to gain adoption. So, so let's talk about how have you done that? What's worked really well for you. Um, yeah, I'd love to hear it. think everyone would. Shannon Vander Meulen: Well, what's worked really well for us is that, know, ⁓ don't think that I'm ⁓ best at really anything. You know, I'm not the best copywriter. I'm not the best. You know, I'm not the best at branding. I'm not the best at, you know, ⁓ product management. one thing I do think that I have a really good skill at is identifying people who are going be a really good fit with our culture. And, or maybe it's just luck. Maybe I've just been really lucky, but we have, we have hired some really, really fantastic people who've been with us, like almost from the beginning, some of them. that's made all of the difference in the world. We made a concerted effort really early on that when we bring on a customer, they are matched up with an implementation manager and that person stays with them throughout. Jamie: I doubt it. Shannon Vander Meulen: In fact, they often get involved kind of at the end of the sales process. Once we have a good sense that the customer is going to come on board, we might even still be working through the SaaS agreement or some contract or whatever. But we'll bring them on. We have a very well-defined processes for implementation, mapping the customer workflow. and they stay with them throughout. And then that team is also very integrated with product development. So they meet on a weekly basis to go through all of the items that are, know, customer requests and the other development items that are in the queue for development and kind hash it out, know, like what, you know, what needs to happen first, what's more pressing, what's more critical. But because those people really have the voice of customer and they really understand the needs of the customer and they are able to see between customer A and customer B or even industry A and industry B, we're able to, I think, make really intelligent decisions about what needs to be developed next. And I think that honestly, I really believe that that's been a huge key to ⁓ our because we've been able to really keep customers on for a long time. have a really amazing retention rate, really low churn. And it's mostly because we just do a really good job of, and when I say we, I'm speaking mostly of the implementation team, of like really listening, like really understanding when somebody's asking for a feature, why do they need it? And how does that impact their daily work? Cause you know, a lot of times you can actually solve what they're asking for. We have an existing, we have an existing feature. or we have a customer who has exactly the same need who's addressed that in a different way. But really good listening is really important. then ⁓ that implement, the customer facing ⁓ be really closely interfacing with product development, I think is really key. Jamie: Well, and I think also what I hear from you is that you're very true to your roots as an organization around sort of enhancing the service, like the experience of users, the experience of customers, right? That's your entire product, your whole solution is built around that whole experience better. And you do the same thing as you talk to your customers about using your product, which is a... Shannon Vander Meulen: Yeah. Jamie: you're not just talking it, you're walking it as well, which is a fantastic extension of the the root of the brand and who you are, which is great. So does that mean... Shannon Vander Meulen: Yeah, I mean, I've always been really in love with process, right? Like it's just, you know, been somewhere like you've probably been somewhere this week where the service was just terrible or where, you know, it was just really inefficient. you know, whether you're getting your tires changed or you're picking up a subway, you like it's impossible as a consumer not to notice when things aren't running optimally. But, you know, there are some people and I'm one of these people who, you know, my brain can't stop there. It doesn't stop at Jamie: Yeah. Shannon Vander Meulen: this is terrible or this could be better. ⁓ automatically goes to, I wonder if they moved to this part of it first, or ⁓ I if they streamlined this, or is there an opportunity to digitally transform that aspect of the process? I can't it. That's where my brain is. lucky for me, are lots of people like me, and ⁓ we found some really ones to be part of the Weight Well team. Jamie: I love it. The problems that you're you're very, clear, the kind of problems that like the problem solver, but it's how do I extend that out? I think that's great. So okay, so when someone's a customer comes, you're all I want to say you're all over them. I mean, in a good way, like to help them get them set up to really make sure that their experience is positive and up and running. How you like how do people find you? How do they know that you're the ones that they want to talk to and work with? Shannon Vander Meulen: Yeah, that's a great question. And that's actually my job. So I'm the chief marketing officer here at Waitwell. That's kind of the role that I sort of naturally fell into. And so, ⁓ my job, I think of my job as kind of two main things, which is, you know, generate leads and, you know, the brand awareness piece as well. We started going to conferences way back in 2021 when the world very first started opening up. It was super awkward those first few ones that we went to, everybody was like, really? We're going to be in the same room with people in real life? And we don't know if we should shake hands or not. So it was a little bit awkward to start with. saw really early on that people were just really to get back in person and really eager to make those connections. And ⁓ we just that the opportunity to talk about some, to talk with. Jamie: Uh-huh. Shannon Vander Meulen: somebody who is a potential user for your software, example, somebody whose is ⁓ related the challenges that you're trying to solve with your software. ⁓ And being able to ask them open-ended questions like, what keeps you up at night? Or if you had a magic wand and you could solve one problem, what would it be? ⁓ Sometimes answers aren't ⁓ what want or expect them to be, ⁓ but just so important for us for understanding the direction that our ⁓ needs to go and what the true pain points and challenges are of our ideal customers. ⁓ that's one thing that I think is really important about being in person. ⁓ other thing that I think is ⁓ about being in person, I think we're gonna see this more and more as AI evolves, is that just trust, right? Like it's just so difficult to build trust in a digital world. so... when you can, and a lot of it has to happen digitally. We can't be everywhere all the time. We can't be physically in every room. I think sort of mirroring your digital presence and your in-person presence in a really effective way is really important. ⁓ I would say going to conferences, ⁓ shows, any opportunities that we have to meet people in person is really, really important for us. And then, of course, showing up as well and just... Really trying to understand where your customers hang out. What do they read? What media do they consume? do they go to get information? How do they make buying decisions? Who do they trust? How do they find other people like them ⁓ they trust? Those things are really important as well. And so we spend a lot of time on that. Jamie: Love it. Okay, so this is, I mean, so questions, we can't go and on on and on. So let me do it differently. I want to, I'd like you to first, if you don't mind, if you've gone through this journey, right? You ⁓ bought ⁓ the ⁓ sold the you started this business seeing all these opportunities. So you've run ⁓ multiple businesses, this being a very, specific, I say startup, SaaS, it's a lot of people ⁓ interested and focused on this. advice would you give others who are watching, listening about ⁓ they need to make sure they do ⁓ have the kind of success and progress that you've seen so far? Shannon Vander Meulen: Well, the first thing I'd say Jamie, is like hasn't been all success because I think one thing that a lot of successful entrepreneurs don't spend a lot of time talking about is their failures. So ⁓ between the registry and WaitWell, I had another business which a total failure. I lost a lot of money. I lost a lot of sleep over it. Jamie: Mm-hmm. Shannon Vander Meulen: And sometimes when I'm having a day where I'm not feeling so positive, I complain to my husband and my business partner, ⁓ why did we do that? If only we could go back in time and not do that. he always says the same thing to me, which is that we learned so much from that experience. And not only that, but we actually made connections. So the developer that we ended up partnering with on WaitWell, who's our co-founder, we met through that. So we wouldn't have even met. So literally that had to happen in order for WaitWell to happen. But the other thing is that I learned so much about marketing. I would love to go back in time and do it all over again because I think I could actually probably be more successful this time. We learned about red tape. We learned about regulations. We learned about creating a brand. I learned so much through that experience and I think most successful entrepreneurs, if you ask them, have a failure in their back pocket as well. They don't just have successes and they did embrace those failures, you know, maybe not 100%. You know, there's probably, of course, nobody likes to fail or to lose money, but they got the learning that they needed out of it and they failed forward. And I think Almost every successful entrepreneur that I know has that experience as well. And I don't think we talk about that enough. Jamie: that that is such a fantastic to answer. I ⁓ so great, like such a great way to share it it's so easy. ⁓ I did this or do this. It's like, yep, made lots of mistakes. Learn from it. Well, no, but I know but I you know, it's honest. It's honest and good and real. And I think that that's what we're why you're you're that's why things are working. Shannon Vander Meulen: That's fun to talk about, Jamie: Okay, so please do me a favor. Can you tell ⁓ everyone who's watching, listening how to find you, reach you, in touch? Shannon Vander Meulen: Sure. our website is weightwellsoftware.com. ⁓ on LinkedIn. So it if you'd follow us there. And I'm also on LinkedIn, and it's just Shannon VanderMeel, and I'm pretty easy to find. Jamie: Amazing. So Shannon, thank you so much for your time. ⁓ everybody who's listening, watching, thank you again ⁓ watching and listening. And until next time, we'll see you. Shannon Vander Meulen: Thank you, Jamie. It was a pleasure.