Latest / The Uplift- with Luke Pollock / #11 - Josh Hanlon - Transferring S&C to the Pitch
Transcript
- Luke Pollock: The following is an episode with Josh Hamlin. Josh is a rugby player and a strength and conditioning coach. He runs online strength and conditioning business where he coaches athletes rugby players to get the most out of themselves and perform well on the pitch. I've been friends with Josh for three years now. we've built business. ⁓ Our business is together ⁓ and I've really his input over the years. I plan for him to be a regular guest on the podcast. OK, Josh Hammond, welcome, welcome. How are you, sir? Josh Hanlon: Good investment. Luke Pollock: Yeah, it's all good. I don't know why we're pretending that we just started talking to each other and we've clearly been talking for 20 minutes already. Yeah, so for a bit of context on this episode, Josh is someone I've known for the past three years. his online coaching business before me, but we have played rugby against each other, I'm sure. I can't remember it, but I'm sure we have. And we've played lot of rugby. Josh Hanlon: you Luke Pollock: This episode is so my listeners can get to know Josh a little bit better before we then have more relaxed episodes in the future. I hope you enjoy. with each other, although we never actually spoke when we did. And then I saw him start an online coaching page. I started mine probably, what would you say, like six months later. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, it like we started it the following year, wasn't it? Luke Pollock: Yeah, probably something like that. I remember thinking this lad has 600 That would be so ideal. So, ⁓ send a few voice notes across and then three years later, here we are. Having spent more time on the phone to you than probably anyone else. But yeah, talk to me Josh, early days, why did you start the page? Josh Hanlon: Hahaha suppose I'd been doing a good bit of in person, working with a different teams and stuff. I think, probably mainly about quite a lot, we're both sort of into the business side it and sort of trying to grow our own thing. So for me, was the next gradual step to try and work with people on a more one-to-one basis. And obviously with the one-to-ones, can go into a little bit more detail. actually make more of an impact when you're working with athletes as opposed to in the team environment you're well you're not from them but it's gonna be a bit harder at times. Luke Pollock: Yeah, that's half the reason. The other reason was you were a lifeguard and you hated it. Josh Hanlon: I did also hit them up. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, that's a real reason. So yeah, you're a lifeguard, a coach, doing team coaching, and then you start the Instagram page. How'd you get like your first few claps from there? Josh Hanlon: lot of them were people I of half knew or even a of mates and stuff off. People I sort of identified with, like maybe that'd be a good match just for me to get a bit of experience and sort of trial a few things in terms of how online process would actually work. And then off the back that, as your business grows, as your page grows, you get referrals and... ⁓ Yeah, different sort of people come in. As you know, now you can get people from anywhere, but the start was very much sort of people I knew and maybe friends of people I knew. Luke Pollock: Yeah, happy days, get those first few testimonials. And did just come off the back of your twenties year or was it a few years after that? Josh Hanlon: It was the season after, I the season after that, I think. I went to England, I finished my 20th season, and went to England for the season, then it was the following season, so it two years after my 20th finished. Luke Pollock: So that's Irish under 20s for those people who might not know that. So Josh is a big USB, used to be now still as a big dog rubber player was in the, was in the Ulster stuff. That's when we probably first met, but I don't think we ever talked back then. Yeah. Oh, nice. And then you moved on to, yeah, like. Josh Hanlon: very much. Luke Pollock: You just scaled up from there. did you scale? Has it been quite natural? Has it been clunky? How has it been? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I think you probably know yourself at the start you're very ambitious and probably bit naive and being like, ah, once you get a few people in the door, you're like, ah, this is easy. It was just continue to scroll and scale from there, which is very much dead for the first while. Then it probably hits a level where as you get a certain number of people on your ability to manage everyone and keep everyone sort of ensure that everyone has what they need. can sort of level out. it's about then a lot learnings along the way. You'll probably lose some people because you maybe didn't know what you're doing or you're trying some things that didn't work 100%. Yes, I think if you the time horizon over, try not to look at things sort of month on month, on a way, more yearly approach, ⁓ things are getting bigger better every year. yeah. Luke Pollock: Yeah, think that's what we always, always come back to is that when we're having an existential crisis being like, oh, it's all going to part. You're just like, think about where you were last year. Think about where you were six months ago. So it's clearly, yeah, trending upwards. I would say you were probably my first like business coach because you were just someone who had been like, were two or three steps ahead of me. So from a business point of view, I was just like. Josh Hanlon: you Luke Pollock: I started like Paul Man Rehab, was studying programs through Excel and Notion Docs and all sorts. And you were like, lads, you need to get, you need get a proper set up here. So you probably made me take it little bit more seriously. Have you, obviously I know, but just tell the listeners about like investing in business coaching and stuff like that. How did you learn those first like basic steps? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I suppose at the start, a of it, you sort of just have to fall or fail sort of quick and realise like this isn't working. And sort of, as you start to research more and you find different things that work for you, you reach out to people like you did, like I did well, other coaches, ⁓ like how do do this? How do you tackle this situation? And then just sort of to podcasts and more you sort of educate yourself, the better. then obviously further in the line, like sort of maybe looking for those mentorship opportunities and actually putting a bit more structure behind it and maybe reinvesting back into things. And the ⁓ that ⁓ already sort of done what you are trying to do or couple steps ahead of you. Yeah, a lot it's just learning on the job and... of bouncing ideas off different people. I know we bounce lot of ideas off each other and we've spoken to lot of coaches, more experienced coaches, more experienced people in business along the way. yeah, it's just sort of being keen to learn and trying to be open to trying different things. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I think that's the key thing. you could find someone who don't have to pay for it, like I did with you, happy days, so you can learn different things off each other. And someone that's just two steps ahead of you, sometimes more useful than like, if I reached out to a big physio clinic right at the start, or someone with a massive old man fall, it wouldn't have been no help to me, but. had like 200 followers when I reached out to you. You had like 600 followers and it wasn't like, you coach me? It was just genuine interest and asking questions. And then we get to the point where we're both kind of like, ⁓ we're both kind of stuck on this. You've gone, gotten ⁓ own business mentor. I've got my own then we come together ⁓ and a lot of those ideas. So rather than having to go through like two separate mentorships, we're getting the benefit from each doing it. So I think if you can find someone who's doing a similar thing to you, maybe a few steps ahead of you, or you're a few steps ahead of them, and you start to share ideas, like the compounding effect of how quickly you can learn, how you can, well, scale up from there. Like I've grown it so much quicker since like chatting to you, sharing ideas. ⁓ Josh Hanlon: For sure. And it's also like, can be a fairly lonely business. Well, I suppose because it's online completely and yes, you're talking to your clients, but it's not as if you've got a team of people around you or you're sitting in an office or something. I think it was good. Sort of the timing we both because it means if something, if I was not sure about something or doubting something, you can sort of keep each other right. so like it's almost having someone. ⁓ not directly part of your team, the same way you would if you're in an office and you weren't sure about something, you'd walk down the hall and go and ask someone. But we were able to sort of keep each other right around the way, which was good. Luke Pollock: Yeah, 100%. The darkest days were probably Barcelona for you. As an online coach, talk me through what brought you over to Spain. Josh Hanlon: I think just new challenge new beginning. I probably to fall out of love with slightly, just with everyone. The couple of seasons, sort of panned out and I thought, know, Robbie's such a good opportunity to up doors all over the world in terms of and... see the world experience different things. yeah, it's just an opportunity to come up and I thought, yeah, let's go for it. Obviously, I always, who doesn't want to live in Spain? It's a nicer weather and different culture to back home anyway. that's what sort of brought me over. Of course, rugby wise, didn't really go the way I wanted it to, but I enjoyed the experience and the rest. Luke Pollock: What happened wise? Josh Hanlon: I probably three or four games in the season and picked a quad injury which ended up being a calcified hematoma. It sort of gave me trouble throughout the course of the year and then I just kept re-tiring my quad all year. So yeah, it me out for that whole season then. Basically, I think it was just shy of a year between the game I got injured in and the... the next time I took the field properly. Luke Pollock: Yeah, and that was a pretty rough time. remember were like, initially thought it was just a dead leg, were to actually mean like, lad, I've got the worst dead leg of my life. And I was like, ⁓ it should settle within a week or two. And it just kept, it just never settled. If anything, was getting worse and worse. And then I think you can better than me, but the struggle of having like a foreign medical team as ⁓ Can you speak to that as well? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, think obviously every country has a different ⁓ of approach to medical physios, etc. We're probably lucky in Ireland and the we have such good physios. And yes, there's probably that aren't great. But there's, especially in the rugby side it, there's a whole lot of good ones. I'm not saying the ones since being more bad by any stretch, but just different approach. And sometimes it was a bit more relaxed than I would sort of like. also you have to factor it. have to factor it. You have to factor it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. also there was an element of the fact that Luke Pollock: You're being so politically correct, right? They had you running with a massive fever tone when you're like, don't worry, they were watching this. Josh Hanlon: I was still only learning Spanish and I wasn't able to communicate effectively what was actually going on. I was like, I'm a leg sore in Spanish and they were like, all right, you'll good, I'll go out and run there. if I actually able to communicate, was definitely a broken language there. I was trying to, in detail, give sort of explanation about my leg and they were not really picking up what I was doing. Luke Pollock: and then there was a point where they were going to drain your leg and different, they were going to operate all of that and it carnage. It was carnage. Josh Hanlon: it was looking back it was quite funny like now just all the sort of things we went through and options we sort of considered at the time. ⁓ Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah, but it's fairly mad that dead leg can you out for the season. I think like looking on to the, firstly, the psychological aspect for you, you're in a different country, you weren't fully confident in your medical team, weren't fully confident in your rehab plan. And that really didn't help your pain levels at all. If you're not confident in the plan going forward, your pain levels are probably going to remain high. There's going to be a lot of doubt. the background and obviously you ended up coming home ⁓ quite It seemed like to me anyway when you came home quite quickly things started turning the corner. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I think the same with the athletes I work with and the athletes you work with. It's like, if you have a load random sessions and you feel like it doesn't fit part of a bigger plan, then you just feel like you're ⁓ wasting your like, what is this actually trying to do? But yeah, I think that's probably where was when I was in Spain. was just sort of random sessions. Try this, try this, ⁓ might work. Which there's an album too, but like... especially rehab like this might work, this might not, but I felt like it was all just sort of throwing shit against walls, you know, it sticks. then whenever I came home, you helped me out a good bit. I was back at my home club as well, Fizzy was there, helped me out a good bit. Yeah, and then just sort of reaching out to the realm of people that I needed to speak to. I think that and the sort of... eventual lump in my leg, sort of shrunk to the point where I could actually start to load it again properly. But yeah, once me and you put a plan in place, you helping me remotely and any sort of questions I had, you made sure I was of things ⁓ properly. Because obviously you're rehabbing your shots, sometimes can think that some things are going to be more beneficial than they actually are. So you were good to pull me back to Earth. a ton and then yeah, as I said, the physio at the club sort of helped me as well and it was long enough but probably when I came back from Barcelona in June, I think I was back well within a couple of weeks and then just gradually built back up so by the time pre-season came I was about 80 % fit, was able to do everything but contact and then luckily got myself back fully fit for the first game of season. I haven't managed to pick up any energy since that have kept me out so I'm actually going well. I'm on a lifetime pass. Luke Pollock: a streak, on a roll. Yeah, you need to create an optimum environment for healing. So if you've got like a, if got like a wind per se, you don't want to like keep that wind ⁓ open expose elements in a similar way. You want to create an optimum environment for your rehab. All right. So you want to be comfortable with your surroundings, be comfortable, have faith in the people that are treating you. And that's like basic step one. And then you want a plan that you can trust. And then you want a plan that's actually achievable as well. And when you feel like at least two of those things are at a whack for you, was like you didn't really trust the plan. You also didn't have an environment you were comfortable with because you people telling you loads of different things. You come home, somewhere you know the environment's the same. So you're in the environment. And then you've got a plan which you can trust. We've got people around you that you can trust. And suddenly things start, you know. There's obviously an element of time that things start picking up and flying in. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, and something we spoke about before was the mental side of it as well. Also, like rehabs, tough, term injuries are tough, but more like probably, know, sort of heard of like, if you start if you think that your injuries not getting better, you think that you're ⁓ it's a write completely, your body's not gonna heal. And in my head, was like, that's little nonsense. Like, but then I think whatever you actually approach it with a mindset of like, I'm actually getting better here, this plan's working, like I feel getting better. Like I'm not, this is, it's not hopeless here. was ⁓ once I probably flicked that switch, was actually quite surprised in terms of how quickly I sort of did bounce back. I knew would know more about that than me, but it's probably something I completely wrote off being not important, but I suppose it all stress in the body at the end of the day, so. ⁓ That definitely played a big factor, I think. Luke Pollock: Yeah, mental stress can result in physiological changes, 100%. And then you probably come on to playing some of the best rugby you've played in a little while off the back of that year. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I think a lot of the time if you have an injury of any description, but especially a long-term injury, like it is such a massive, although it is a setback in a way, it is such a massive opportunity because you have all this time and you can almost rebuild from the ground up. So like you can come back to the pitch if you get your rehab right, if you get your, especially your late stage rehab in terms of your conditioning and your... your strength work and you can actually come back to the pitch feeling pretty good. Definitely my right to pre-season is probably one of best I've ever had. Yeah, coming into the season just body felt really good. I definitely done a lot of work all the time I was injured in terms of my strength and even movement quality side of things. I felt like I moving a lot better on the pitch because obviously that was something I had to address with my injury. felt like I was move more efficiently around the pitch stronger, probably just more robust in general. Yeah, was a good pre-season, sort of struggled for a bit of game time at the start of the year. second half of the year's definitely probably picked up a bit of form and it's been nice get some decent performances stringed together for the first time in couple of years. Luke Pollock: happy days. Yeah, there's going to be someone listening to this that's injured or struggling with an injury they're thinking that's nice for him. But like, how could I ever come back feeling those first couple of weeks feeling better than I was ⁓ injury? What would you say to that person? Josh Hanlon: It's more than doable. If anything, think it's probably not the current norm in terms of when you come back from injury, you're feeling better than you were before. Especially if it's a long... Yes, sometimes in the season, maybe if you have an ankle injury or something, you're going to be out for four or six weeks. You come back and I put on just by getting by here. But for example, something longer term, there's no reason why you can't. if you have the right plan in place in terms of your first year rehab obviously to address the injury that is keeping you out but also like if you have a lower body injury there's no reason why you can't go out or hard after your upper body strength etc and then as you come back from your lower body injury you can I said there about moving quality etc then your conditioning like even it's good time to improve body composition because you're not having to worry about ⁓ loads of calories or feel for training or recovery from training, feel for matches. So there's so many things you can work on while you're injured. It's just about sort of focusing on what you can do as best as you can. Luke Pollock: Yeah, 100 % leads it all nicely into like in season programming. So for me at the minute, have fallen like massively, just being honest, massively fallen off a gym schedule. normally I would, I knew programmed quite a lot my in season gym work before. So normally I would do like lower body focus on a Monday, upper body on a Tuesday, maybe like a full body on a Thursday. I'm lucky. Well, I'm not lucky, but I'm doing well at the minute if I'm getting two sessions in per week. For someone like me who's busy, who's feeling the effects from a weekend game on a Saturday, would you say keep chasing the numbers? I know that's a bit of a leading question. What advice would you give someone like me who's struggling to keep up the sessions pretty much? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I think especially this late stages of the season, I know your season's very long. You start pre-season July, 1st of July. Yeah, so it's very long season. At this point of the season, body does start to feel, for sure. Something that I would be focusing on is what's the minimal effect of those you can do each week? Luke Pollock: July. Yeah, we're pretty much running into May. Josh Hanlon: So obviously like yes, and I do what you're gonna get your three sessions done on the week You'll be sort of looking to hit a couple of heavy sets Maybe even had a PR the odd week in season happy days if you get things structured right, that's definitely doable But then it comes a point where you are absolutely cooked and you're maybe crying a couple of niggles and I guess at a point we're like Is these are these three sessions of me pushing through all these three sessions and full load full volume? Is that gonna help me on a Saturday? diminished from my ability to perform. So there's a couple of options. Either you continue with your free sessions, you just pull down the volume of the sessions, the load overall. Like it's still important we're getting that strength stimulus in, but it's maybe a case of like how we're only gonna do two top working sets, or instead of four, for example, or we're maybe gonna cut down our accessories a little bit, because we don't need all of it. So like, that's one way to... Or else, yeah, as you said, just cut one of the sessions, completely add an extra day in the week. And then if you go for your two full body sessions, then a good way to do it would be have your two high days and your Tuesday and Thursday, and put your full body sessions in them days as well. And then obviously you've got Monday, Wednesday, Friday off then to let the body recover. Hopefully come Saturday, you'll be fizzing. But I think it's probably, it's not a sort of. mindset shift of I'm just maintaining in season. It's just been like, I'm just being smart here because I'll see in season. The goal is performance on Saturday, giving the body the best chance possible to perform. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I think I'm being honest, I probably have had that mindset for the last couple of seasons in terms of my weights. apart last season where I had long periods out for injury, I was definitely hitting PRs and stuff upper body wise. But when I'm in season and fit and blend at the minute, like I'm not worried about the numbers I'm putting on the bar really, because I'm... I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I feel like if I can just hold on to the end of the season and then have a good off season, that's when I can focus on the numbers side of things. But it's interesting to hear you say like you can still hit PRs in season. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I think, and also within reasons, but if you have a, if your program structure is correctly, like for, yes, there's going to be games you play a game on a Saturday. Like I remember playing a game on a Saturday a couple of weeks ago and I literally had already moved until the Tuesday. So there's no, doing the lowers on a Monday, this wasn't really an option, but like there's natural breaks throughout the season as well. We maybe get a week off or two weeks off. It's like their opportunities to, yes, take a couple of maybe after. a big game, take a couple of days, let the body settle, but then there's opportunity there to either get an exercise at the end of the week or go after a bit more of a strength focus. there's no reason if, as I said earlier about the number of sets, you're not going to be doing four five working sets. like, can we get a PB is, spell PB if it's only one set, you know what I mean? So yeah, definitely. Luke Pollock: too right someone clip that class into off season then how would you could you're gonna be the man that's in charge of my off season how would you the structure like so my my off season to get the most out of it obviously working well working on the business so I'm gonna have a little bit more time than like a nine-to-fiver but assume I have a nine-to-five job or I'm at uni what would be ideal Josh Hanlon: Yeah, so obviously it varies from person to person, both with they probably want to go after in particular, there's any sort of areas that we should be focusing on, but also like their schedules, like the two main things that I'll ⁓ at when I start working with an athlete. So obviously you have like the most optimal program structure of the week or whatever it might be. And then you have like the reality. like ⁓ Full-time athletes aren't working full-time jobs. So it's about how can we sort of take what we need from the full-time approach and sort of marry it up with a part-time athlete when their schedule. Yeah, it's like, obviously in the off season you have no games, you have no team training, so you have a bit more time on your hands so you can replace them team training sessions with maybe an actual gym session. As we said, the body won't be as sore, so you can, it is really the time to go. hard after your effort, hard after your strength work. terms of how that actually looks in the week, it look like three, four gym sessions, probably any than that's not overly necessary in the vast majority of For someone like you, who has a really solid level of conditioning year on year, year round, you'll probably have a sevens in the off season, I'd imagine as well. So the run and load will probably be sort of just about maintenance for a while, maybe take a couple of weeks off and then you'll just be about maintaining that for a while. But maybe like for you, for example, the centre, it'd be a great opportunity to go after some more direct speed work, which can be hard to get in during the season as well. Obviously when the body's sore and you're running on waterlogged pitches, it can be hard actually, fine time to get like a focused speed testing in. like something like trying to get one or two dedicated speed blocks in the week around all your strength work and your lower body weights. I appreciate that probably doesn't answer the question, but it's very much different from athit to athit. Luke Pollock: No, does. It does. I'm like, that's kind of, to be fair, it's kind of what I did last off season. I actually think I ran into my own problems with that, right? So I was doing three or four gym sessions. So I was putting on upper body size and a little bit lower body size. And then my main focus was on speed and the off season because I was like, this is the time I can increase my max output. But then I was coming back to the pitch pre-season, well I didn't really get much for pre-season, in season and I was having like, and I still do have a lot of groin pain, I think that's one the reasons that it kicked off is because I came back bigger and also faster but I didn't really condition my body in a way that married up with that so I wasn't doing like direct groin work etc. I probably skipped out some of those little extra bits. So I came back bigger and faster and my body then just started to struggle a little bit and probably still does. yeah, for me, it's probably going to be a few weeks ⁓ off, feet completely when the season ends and then try and build up like capacity for a buzzword capacity in the areas where I'm struggling. like I go groin and then get back onto the pitch for speed work. But yeah, yeah, we'll a. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, for sure. It's definitely a mistake a lot of people make is it comes in the off season, but it's just start training like bodybuilders and they're like, all them born prehab as such exercises can kind of get put in the back burner like because yeah, sometimes we're pretty good at doing them in season because we don't want to them in the in-season but when like your neck matches three months down the line, you're like, I'll be around. And they'll need it and then you get put on about a size. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Josh Hanlon: don't run for a couple of weeks and next thing you know you go out in the pitch and I'd say every single pre-season there most if you went there'd ⁓ you least find one lad who carries some sort of either hamstring or groin or calf and for one or two weeks of pre-season they just share it because ⁓ you put on a couple of kilo and not run any run or enough run then. Luke Pollock: Yeah, we had, I missed on preseason because I was obviously moving to London, but we had reports of hamstrings pinging everywhere. And that's where you see most hamstrings go is preseason for that reason. Yeah, class. What will your off season look like? You're goal specific. Josh Hanlon: Yeah. To be honest, not something I've given a massive heap of thought properly into yet, but I'll get the season over and done with and sort of sit and go around, what is it that'll... A similar question I'll ask my athletes as well, come start a pre-season, what will actually make me a better player? So my approach with the off-season is trying to become an overall better athlete, but within that, everyone's going to have a couple of certain areas that might. be more relevant to them. So yeah, for me, it'll probably be trying to put on a bit more size and go after a bit of strength stuff for a front row. My conditions are at a decent level, my speed is probably at decent level. yeah, I think for me, it'll be more a bit of a strength focused off season. And as you said, they're trying to keep the running volume after a couple of weeks off, trying to keep the running volume fairly constant and sort of start to up the way towards pre-season. as you said earlier, you've that capacity in the legs and stuff, so you're feeling good going into pre-season and not sort feeling like you're blowing in first back, Bronco. Luke Pollock: I should do a 1K test, think, this year. No 1K, just 10-pitch lengths. Josh Hanlon: One care, us wrong. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I'd probably rather do that. Josh Hanlon: Mm. Luke Pollock: Rock was 1.2 isn't it with turns? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, this is last turns in there. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I think it suits me, suits me a bit better, but my fitness, fitness is not like, you said, said that I've got like decent aerobic capacity, I do have decent, but it's, I used to be like the fittest in teams I would go to and now I'm definitely like very, very much mid-tier. So that's probably something we're going to chase after a little bit more, but on popular opinion, but I actually think BACS. ⁓ especially in like the semi pro level more so in their league level but backs can get away with Okay, maybe we shouldn't shouldn't include that but I feel like backs can't get away with being less fit Josh Hanlon: less than what. Luke Pollock: them forward, like less on conditioning them forward. Because we get breaks when you do scrum and line up, you know? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, I suppose it's just different as well. It's relative fitness as well. like a back, a back sand like they're kind of fit. It's probably like a forward score. Yeah, that's where I felt like, you what mean? Luke Pollock: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that's right. That's fair. And it's different because it's like, I find that my, this is why I don't like the Bronco because I never do a 1.2 with turns on the pitch. Like what my fitness will be is like running a hundred percent, running a hard line, a hundred percent, getting tackled, then having to go up and do that again. And then maybe taking two minutes rest and then do, and then repeat that like chasing the ball up at 90%. and then stopping and doing that again. So it's like more repeat max efforts. Whereas I feel something like a Bronco is actually more relevant to like a back row or a front row because they just, well, they're like 60, 70 % for longer periods of time. You see that as far? Josh Hanlon: Yeah, you're having to run a bit more consistently just to get into place and stuff. Yeah, Bronco has obviously, it's been around for years and there's various tests, obviously every team will do coming into pre-season as well. for me, they're all important, but like how you actually feel on the pitch as well is a big indicator in terms of fitness as well. we all know. You could pay be a Bronco and a couple of weeks later play a match and you still your first game back. You're still going to be absolutely blown away. So like, yeah, get to that point where even in training, we feel like there's so many other indications of fitness. Like, are you able to are you able to get back up off the floor quickly to get into position again? Are you able to set quick? But also like whenever you do get them breaks and play, are you able to does your heart rate come back down to normal? within a couple of minutes or are you still like, I'll say puffed whenever the whistle stuff or starts again, you know. Luke Pollock: Yeah, don't really think about it like that, but that is true. Like how you actually feel game is a lot more important. Josh Hanlon: Yeah. Yeah, it's with as like on the S &C, but you can go tests. We all know someone is absolutely class, sort of testing scores in gym or ⁓ even like the rehab, you an athlete whose strength scores might be all right, but they're still experiencing pain on the pitch, then you have to look at some other things in terms of actually how the is feeling higher movement, I think. Luke Pollock: And how would you judge that? Like, is that something, like, how do do that for yourself? is that just like, you have to have an honest conversation with yourself? Because obviously we gravitate towards the string of stuff because we can, there's metrics that we can measure, right? That's why we like a Bronco, because we can know the number on it. But you're saying it's actually just as important. I haven't thought about it much, but... Josh Hanlon: think you showed it. Yeah. Luke Pollock: I think about it from a rehab point of view, but not as much from like a conditioning point of view, but yeah, how would you like quantify that, I suppose? Josh Hanlon: I suppose it's difficult to quantify in the sense that, again, we're not looking at the stats or the tests in particular. I think you probably know yourselves, maybe you've had a couple of pretty good involvements in a match or you make a line break and you pass and you're able to get back into the play again quickly. And even in training, you're able to pop up all over the place, you know what mean? Because you feel like you're not. Yes, you're still puffed, but you feel like you're still able to maintain that higher level of getting around the pitch. Ultimately, probably does come down to, if you were trying to quantify it, it probably does come down to number and quality of involvement, positive involvement in a match or in training. And I feel like you probably are able to tell yourself, if most athletes lift the mirror and go, I might fit enough. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Josh Hanlon: majority will say probably could do a little bit more, sort of, it's going, I might fit for purpose, might fit to do my job and play on my terms, you know. Luke Pollock: Yeah, but a lot of them would know as well. They could be fitter. Like for me, am I fit enough? would say I am fit enough. But I and know myself that I can feel the whole world better on the pitch at the minute. Josh Hanlon: Yeah. Yeah, think as you said, a lot of players don't really know how much better they would be able to play if they were a fitter, because they've never really experienced that. So whenever you get to a point where you're like, oh, I'm actually moving my ball here and I'm able to get back off the floor quick enough and I'm able to get back in the line and be able to have more involvement in the support line or whatever it might be, this is actually pretty good, pretty fun. And realistically, as a front rower, like if you are going 100 % from the start, you'll get hurt at some stage, you know what mean? But it's just different if you're a center because you're making it expected to play 80 minutes. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I think it's, for me it was more like subconscious. I didn't realise it, but you, yeah. Yeah, when I, yeah. When you're thinking about it, that's when you notice it, know, but actually when you just forget, relax and play hard, as hard as you can, you won't notice it, really. Josh Hanlon: Probably from the growing energy as well, sort of in the back of your mind. Yeah. Luke Pollock: yeah, definitely don't play a injury. That's not the lesson. But it's one reality of playing three injury that is in the back end. I'm carrying this and ⁓ might back to bite me later in the game where I might creep up and you have to. Be very confident in the diagnosis, be very confident in the plan you have. Otherwise those voices will get louder and louder in terms of you don't really know what's going on here. You don't really have a plan how to manage it. And you don't really know how it's going to affect your future. Fortunately for me, I have those questions answered for the ground. So I know what's going on. I have a plan on how I'm going to manage it in my off season. And I have plan on how I'm managing it currently as well. So I just need to get through the season. And that's a decision that me and the physios that I work with have made. So yeah, that's when I would say, then you can start to discuss playing on through having a niggle or whatever. And that's just the reality. Like other physios will listen to this who don't play or haven't played other S &Cs. And they'll be like, well, if you're injured, you're injured, stop playing. But the reality is we have a limited timeframe. Some of us get paid to play a per game, so you're going to try and squeeze the most out of your body if you can. So that's my on playing through injury. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, comes down to the at least, well, personal decision at the end of the day. Obviously, if it's real bad, the physios put you out, but if you fail, it's ultimately like the physios telling you to do that. You know what mean? That's your decision to play through. So yeah, whatever you Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I know the risk is you get a standpoint where it's not playable and it might take me a little bit longer to recover from. Um, but yes, off season is just around the corner. So we'll see how this Saturday goes. Um, yeah. Um, two more months and then we get a good off season. I get very excited for the off season. don't know about you. You said you haven't thought about it, but I think about it like from March, from as soon as is March, I'm thinking about all season and like, what can I do? How can I get better? Josh Hanlon: Yeah. Yeah. I do love I do love the off season to be fair because not only time for massive progress on the physical side of things, but also it's nice to get a away from rugby as well. And you can gym, train, free and actually some other things at the weekend. Luke Pollock: yeah. Yeah, and the sun's out and then you come into pre-season and like the sessions are stinking but your body's actually feeling all right. I mean, it's just class. But yeah, I think it's worth saying like the, what we're talking about, what we've taken from has all come from, because we've been in those elite environments. We know the reality of it and then we're just trying to marry that up with being a semi-pro or sub-elite or even just like a completely amateur player who... wants to get the most out of the game and wants to steal bits from the pro game. So while it might not appear like completely optimal at times, know, like other SNC coaches might be like, you need to be hitting PBs in season. Like be like, should never play through an injury or whatever. This we've seen at the top level. We know this is the reality. So yeah, it's a very honest conversation if you're an athlete who wants to work with either. either of us, this is what you get, like real side of it and the reality of being an athlete. We of know how it works. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, for sure. I think whenever you're, well, whether you are getting paid or not, but whenever you're not getting paid, in my case, the majority of non-professional players in Ireland anyway, it comes down to why you're actually playing. And the majority of it is you want to enjoy your sport and you want to play with your mates and be involved with that community aspect of it. And that comes. so much better whenever you're able to play on your terms and you're able to play well and you're able to win trophies or sort of be a main player for your team or for your squad. So, obviously we take things from the professional environments or the elite environments we've been involved in before, but ultimately, as you said, it's about taking what we need to from them and realizing that you have to sort of pick and choose carefully what you copy from them boys because Unfortunately, don't have the luxury for a couple of hours a day, every day. ⁓ Luke Pollock: Yeah, also they don't do perfectly. Like I'm a big believer that it is the whole way up and everyone's kind of like just seeing what works. Like in the multiple different environments that I've been in and you've been in, whether it's been like Queens or Ulster, rugby, like everyone does things kind of similarly, but then also parts of it, like their off season will look very different. in terms of what they do in the gym and the pitch sessions. You know, some teams have a lot more focus on like off-beat condition. Other teams will be like, no, we need to run, run you and stuff. people are always just guessing, trying to find the new best way to do things. terms of like, I know I'm going off on a tangent, but in terms of like off-beat stuff, like zone two stuff, there's something I hate doing. Cause I think it's really boring and I don't get, I don't feel like I get much from it. would you say about like zone two training off-feet conditioning stuff? Josh Hanlon: In terms of Zone 2, yeah, I agree. It's definitely very boring and it's probably become a new trend as such, especially the FNC side of things. well, trends, you see it in Instagram all the time. like, oh, you a very long your foot or Zone 2, and you're like, right, okay. But don't get me wrong, there definitely is a place for it. And it was something I did a lot whenever I was injured. purely because it was one of only things I could do. But there's definitely for me massive benefits of it, especially maybe in the off season or the preseason if you want to sort of, especially preseason might double up as a bit of active recovery. Definitely a lot of benefits to it in terms of improving that aerobic base, but like it doesn't, it's not a magic, like a lot of these things, it's not a magic pill where you're start doing zone two and all of sudden you're going to be the fittest man about it. has to sort of complement whatever else you do in terms of your running volume, your higher intensity efforts, ⁓ speed, your body composition. There's so many things that go into feeling fit feeling conditioned. If you're relying on zone two slowly, then you're going be up against it. It definitely is a place for it and a lot of my athletes will do it and I'll leave it in as an option for them to do it if they want. Definitely like marries up quite well with bit of active recovery if you are feeling a bit sore and maybe it's one of only things you feel like doing. But yeah, it's boring enough ⁓ be fair ⁓ obviously as we already spoke about, if you're working full time and you're already training in season and stuff. and that's before you put in any other commitments that people have. You don't really have many hours to play with in the week in terms of training. So whenever it does come, especially in season, so it does come, making the most out of the time you do have, Zone definitely has its place in some cases, but there's definitely a lot of things that are put ahead of it, start anyway. Luke Pollock: Yeah, it's a more of a luxury if you have the time, get it done. If you don't have the time, do more rugby specific stuff. Josh Hanlon: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, like if your body composition's in a bad place and you're kind of out of weight and you rely on the zone 2 to help you there, you're going to be fighting a problem, I'd say. Luke Pollock: Yeah, all the best. All the best. I think it's like people just love it because it doesn't seem that hard. ⁓ they're just like, yeah, I do two zone twos a week. from I understand anyway, it's pretty good for building a decent ⁓ cardio And it doesn't add loads of ⁓ extra onto the legs. So people quite like it. But it's still not going to make you fit. Josh Hanlon: Good luck with that. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, it's definitely going to help if it complements everything else you're doing, for sure. But it's not like a magic pill. It's sometimes, you know, a big old fan. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll do some in the off season, we'll see. I think we're going to wrap it up here. We've been going for 50 minutes, so that's plenty of time for a Wednesday afternoon for us fun, employed boys. Josh Hanlon: It's still the morning. It is. ⁓ It's still the morning. You're flying up. Luke Pollock: ⁓ still the morning. Still the morning? as she's her give-a-damn-having buddy. yeah, if anyone wants to find you, can they find you, Josh? Josh Hanlon: you me on Instagram, jh__coaching then the links are for everything else is in the bio on my Instagram so that's probably the best place. Luke Pollock: Yeah, if you want to work with Josh, S &C, coaching for rugby players in your off season, preseason or in season, you can find him there. If you're rehabbing an injury and you want to work with me, find me on Instagram at the Polk Online. I'm getting good at this now, listen to me go. Yeah, ⁓ Josh and are probably going to do episode every 10 episodes on the uplift or something. Josh Hanlon: Yeah. Luke Pollock: haven't quite worked that out but yeah this one gets to know him gets to know his philosophies and stuff and then mostly most of the other episodes will probably just be us rambling like we normally do on the phone about different things but yeah cheers for coming on Josh Josh Hanlon: No worries, Matt, good to catch up. It's Marta takes the podcast for me to get hold of you. Luke Pollock: Tare, bye. Yeah, I know. Book into the forecast. Bye. Cheers. Josh Hanlon: Cheers mate.