Latest / Breaking the ICE / Episode 12 - The Ladder of Partnership: Customer Success and Responsible AI at ICE-Tech

Transcript

Episode 12 - The Ladder of Partnership: Customer Success and Responsible AI at ICE-Tech · Breaking the ICE

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome back to the Breaking the Ice Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Elliot Draga.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is season one, episode twelve.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: For uh all of you who have followed along with the previous 11 episodes, we are at number 12.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm joined by my co-host Lloyd Overton.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Lloyd, how are you?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Lloyd, first time speaking English.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Lloyd, how are you doing today?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to uh to be part of another episode and and and see the the sales team growing even more.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have I I think I'm I'm struggling.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's midday on my end, and I was up early this morning.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've had an enormous amount of coffee, so I may be rushing through.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: We may have to just slow me down in post here.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yes, as you alluded to Lloyd, uh, we are joined by a special guest this week, Joe Wood.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Joe, how are you doing today?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Good to be here.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Glad it's episode 12 and not 13.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: So hopefully um a bit of good luck.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Are you superstitious, Joe?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Is that uh yeah?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit, yeah.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: I try to I try to keep myself rational and logical, but sometimes it creeps in that little seed of doubt, isn't it?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me too, is it?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was 13 and we did it tomorrow, wouldn't it?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Friday the 13th, that'll be even worse.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: I uh it's funny you mentioned that.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was building something in my garage over the summer, and so I had this big ladder set up.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm generally not superstitious, try to be logical and scientific and practical, but I had this ladder set up and I was going up and down many times, and uh I had a couple of friends over who were helping me, and I was so obsessive about nobody walking under the ladder.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if that's something uh you know, a superstition that crosses the Atlantic Ocean, but yeah, it is it is in my neck of the woods, and I was I was hyper about it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm terrible.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I I salute magpies, I don't cross kids on the stairs.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if I drop the sword, it goes over the shoulder.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm awful for that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's my mum was like it, so I've probably picked it all up from her.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting subject for the podcast.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: I did exactly the same thing.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: I was up in the loft the other day and had to sort of navigate around the back of it.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: It was up against a wall as well, which is probably not great to help and safety, but yeah, Adam and not cross under it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's um was that seven years bad luck?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Can't I can't afford that.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: That'll seem to be no and and Joe, don't worry, we've pivoted.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're uh we've we've we've fully saturated the insurance market, we're into the home improvements uh podcast space now.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we can carry on the discussion.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a terrible level yet, but let's do it.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Great, great, great.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Joe, for those of you who don't uh know you, maybe you can do a bit of an introduction.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um as Lloyd alluded to, uh, you are the newest member of our team.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, just give the audience a bit of a background, um, who you are, what you do with us at ice tech, and and maybe uh a bit more of a background behind that.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, as you said, relatively new to the team.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think I'm approaching three months in joining in an account management role.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: So with a real specific focus on bolstering out the support that we provide to our existing clients and you know, working with them to understand what we can do for them, what they need from us, and and that sort of thing.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um my my background is um sort of varied between insure tech and what you might term sort of insurance proper.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: So um I joined from a software house where I was for sort of six, six and a half years um in an insurer-facing role.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: So sort of very specific to what we do now at ICE.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um that role was my first kind of foray into the insure tech side of our industry.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: So prior to that, I had been a broker, effectively.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: So um I graduated in sort of about 2010, uh, came out of university with a law degree into a relatively sort of hostile job market and with a diminishing interest in going into the legal profession.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I was living in a town called Cheltenham.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Lawyers you probably know it, Elliot, maybe not.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, one of the one of the big employers there at the time was an insurance broker called Ensley, who had a real sort of specialism in um sort of student insurance and and that kind of thing.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's now part of the Howden group, so still running in terms of some of the operation, but it was a real hub for employment in in that town.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: So almost everybody who's been through Cheltenham has worked for Ensley at some point, or at least knows someone who has.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that was my kind of first job within within the broking space.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um I joined within their commercial team, so working on sort of commercial property stuff, um, and then gradually moved my way sort of up into the the corporate market with a broker called Jelf, who's now part of the Marsh group.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and yeah, so all of those roles, I suppose the sort of common denominator aside from insurance has always been client management, working with existing customers and that sort of thing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and yeah, here I am within ISETEC and enjoying it so far.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's been very good.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that you you kind of have done the same thing that every other person that I seem to know in insurance has done.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've now connected another dot because it's such a small world.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: So interestingly, Ensley was pretty big in the in the student insurance space, if I remember rightly, and at one point was owned by Legal in general.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And funnily enough, my um my wife worked for Jov um and now works for Marsh.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, maybe there's a connection there, and I've discussed that one offline.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it just shows the insurance industry is as small as we uh we all know it is.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can't afford to fall out with people in this industry.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: You have to get on.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not, which puts us in a unique position as a vendor, right?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: That that I mean, reputation matters, uh, the work we do matters, uh, and the relationships we have with our customers matter, Joe.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So no pressure uh on on that front.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I also just in terms of similarities, I graduated in 2011.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: So like really, really, I didn't realize we were that close in age.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um you look much younger than I do.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: I realized I needed to append that one.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so how did you hear about us?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm curious.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, was the company that you're working for uh, you know, sort of a competitor?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Had we been on your radar?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: How did you come to know who we are as company?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so my my previous company was a software house or sort of tech provider now um called OpenGI.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: So they specifically face into the broker market, and it's effectively a broker platform that allows brokers to trade with insurers, including all the back office functionality and digital aspects that you'd expect.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, my job was almost at the other end of that distribution channel, working with the insurers to allow them to distribute their products to the brokers that used our platform.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: The kind of first time in coming across ICE was dealing with some of our mutual customers, actually.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: So um, a couple of sort of high-profile customers, larger insurers that we work with, who obviously use ICE as as the back office system, also distributed products via the platform I was working with at the time.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, I'd heard really good things, kind of uh understood the capabilities in terms of the insurer back office side.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think it's been really eye-opening, um, sort of moving into ice, seeing behind the curtain, getting a better understanding of the breadth of the offering, really.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: So um aside from the the policy aspect, it a new area for me is the claims side.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: So prior experience in in that is really minimal.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the really exciting bits is is obviously the AI products that we're working on as well.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, so I'd heard probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of that's a terrible pun, but the tip of the iceberg.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um and now, yeah, getting to get into really understand the depth of it has been really exciting.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: I I guess just you know, building on that, what's anything specific that stood out?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you you you allude to the the breadth of it.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think we we try to to convey uh to the market, I think our leading uh position from an AI standpoint.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, aside from that, or or maybe it's just that, but but you know, what what's stood out so far?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I suppose on on that subject, um the AI focus is really interesting to me.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: So there's there's obviously a lot of coverage in the news today around how this stuff needs sort of careful deployment and guardrails to ensure that it you know adds value without creating huge amounts of risk.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously within a regulated environment, that's even more key.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think it's been really great to see the the level of expertise in terms of that deployment, but also the kind of enthusiasm of the people that are rolling it out as well.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is completely infectious.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and yeah, is you know, I'm sure gonna sort of guarantee the the success of those products.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: But the really interesting balance of that is the way that it's rolled out in a in a really safe way.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: So Piotra, our head of AI and innovation, one of the first things he said to me is that, you know, we wouldn't just use AI for the sake of AI.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's about kind of combining LLMs with deterministic processes and and making sure that we we deliver it in a responsible way that adds value without without creating you know danger or or regulatory or compliance issues.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that might be a very dull answer in that I find it great that we've rolled out in such a kind of sensible way.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um that I think is what stands out.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's a it's a it's a it's a great answer.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and it look, the two of you are much closer to the factory floor than I am.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: So correct me if I'm wrong here, but um what struck me, I mean, we had Al Robertson, our our CTO on a few weeks ago, and which I'm sure you listened to Joe, you're one of the millions of of listeners to uh the show.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but when Al was when Al was speaking about this topic, there's there's a real practical uh experience that he's drawing from.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: We've I mean we've worked with this, we understand behind the mysticism of uh a frankly, like I think misinterpreted term, you know, everything just gets blanket labeled as AI today, and we've got you know dozens upon dozens of engineers who can can sift through the nuance of of what the various tools are and how they can be best leveraged and how they can be best deployed in an industrial setting.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and the you know, the the other side of that coin is where there where there's a limit or or or where there's a risk or where it's not the right tool for the job.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, the analogy I always draw is I mean, think about the industrial revolution.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Think about any major epoch in economic history brilliant tools get developed that change the way work is done, but they're tools.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're living through that right now.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think you know, because we're on the front lines of it, and and Al is sort of you know leading that charge with Teatra, uh they're much more adept at knowing what the tool actually does and and what it's good for and what it isn't.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's been my interpretation so far.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: No, absolutely.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the key thing about the the individuals you just mentioned is that they come from a foundation, you know, not within AI specifically, I suppose, but within the underlying insurer software platforms that we've been offering for the last 25 years.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um and they also have a really, really good working knowledge of how our customers work, and obviously the customer base includes you know some of the biggest insurers in the market.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that gives them a really unique standpoint where they understand the businesses that you know these these products are going into and they can ensure that they really hit the mark in terms of where it needs to be used.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, that's a real kind of foundation for um rolling this out successfully.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: What about the what about the breadth piece that you talked about?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious because I again I have my own thoughts on this, uh, but I want to hear from you first.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what stood out from a breadth standpoint, uh, you know, as opposed to just knowing about the platform from the outside looking in, you know, getting to to look behind the curtain and see you know workings of the platform.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, you know, elaborate on that a little bit.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so there's probably a few bits to it.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: So the the main the main part is how it offers that kind of all-encompassing ecosystem of of policy and claims management.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I think my prior experience up until now has very been very been very much on the sort of distribution side of insurance, whether that's you know, selling policies directly or working with an insure tech where distribution of a product was my key focus.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: So when you then move into the sort of ongoing policy lifecycle management, that's where that's where I've kind of been, you know, getting outside of my comfort zone and really learning how we do things.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then yeah, claims, whole new, whole new world, really.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: So fantastic to sort of get a bit more of an insight to that.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, I think breadth also comes from the diversity of the customer base as well.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: So when you look at geographically, there's a huge spread.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, customers across multiple countries in terms of product lines, you know, real strength in your kind of classic high-volume motor and home lines of business.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now we've got the IPMI and travel and assistance stuff through you guys, um, and also you know, the the commercial lines aspect as well.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we've got a solution that is so highly configurable that it can be applied to a multitude of markets.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's really the bit that I'm finding exciting.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: As an account manager, it just creates diversity in in what I do day to day.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, that's that's very motivating.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you know, my my take on it, and I've always been amazed at what you guys have done on the ice platform side.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the Nordic platform has a fairly narrow focus, a specialized but narrow focus, travel health, pet health, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and there's unique nuance to that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, just within that narrow uh scope, I'm amazed at the diversity of customer requirements.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and and then so what's always amazed me is now you look at the ice platform, which has a much broader sort of insurance product market that it services.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I I I do think, like I I concur, Joe, uh and and I I want to underscore it's remarkable how much can be done from a configurable standpoint.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Lloyd and I unfortunately have the difficult job of of nailing the context for you know for the marketplace and and and helping to rather than just saying, you know, this is Pandora's box, like it's you know, it's whatever you want, like to actually narrow the scope down to to be the the you know what is gonna be the right hook for whoever we're convinced obviously that it can do anything for anyone, but sifting through what somebody needs and what we can offer, I think you know, that's that's our job.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think that's a that's an interesting point, actually, and something that I was gonna mention in terms of actually, you know, I've I've been at ICE for eight years, I've I've been I've seen you know some fantastic growth into those other territories and into those other clients and being there and and being the person that Elliot quite rightly kind of describes of saying, well, you know, what is it you want because this is what we can we can build for you and ensure that it kind of you know solves this problem.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but actually because of the nature of the platform being you know quite modular in its design, and you're quite right, there's a policy system and a claim system and a rating engine and a an ecosystem of other rating engines and all of those good things.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you see this kind of client base grow.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but actually with my focus and probably Elliot's as well, you know, being quite new business and quite going out there after new opportunities, I've always had that in the back of my mind that actually, you know, even before the kind of stuff we've been doing around AI, there's still loads of really cool things that you can go back into these clients with and say, look, you know, we never really spoke to you about claims and and hey, you know, we built this exactly to suit you, you know, this type of product, but did you know you could do this and you could do this with your data and you could build this additional data feed to feed another data, you know, all of those kind of things that were almost being missed.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's yeah, it's super exciting to to kind of have this account management function growing and and be able to push some of those those kind of agendas for sure.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't envy you guys.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a it's a very challenging job, isn't it, out there in the the business development space.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: And like you say, Lloyd, there's there's so much information to get across, and you don't always get a great deal of time or the opportunity to do that when you first speak to you know potential new customers.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know, we've still got a bit of that in in the account management space because there's so many additional, you know, products and solutions coming to market.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's the same challenge to an extent, although they really understand the fundamental device, they might not understand you know the real benefits of some of the additional products.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's that's the key where I can, you know, work with you guys over the next few months and make sure that we absolutely nail it in terms of the key messaging around that.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, I think you know, on the new customer side, we've we've probably got the advance, or the existing customer side rather, we've got the advantage um that they've you know they've seen the proof.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're live with us, they've got our solutions, they know how we work.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: It gives a bit of that context before we get into those discussions about new and additional things as well.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, probably a bit of a head start, as I say, don't envy you guys.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's a tough job sometimes, isn't it?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I yeah, I mean we could are we could argue the same for your issues, Joe.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh really, you know, we're we're bootstrapping this function and and we're doing it for both platforms, right?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh traditionally, I mean, it's it's been uh just something that, you know, Andrew and Lloyd had done, something that I had done, and and we're making uh obviously, I mean, our time and capacity is limited and and the customer base is growing, and uh it's becoming more diverse.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and so we do need more of a dedicated focus.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: How much of your time do you find is split between the the dual mandate here, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Of of sort of commercial opportunity and and uh you know customer awareness, customer satisfaction, those those sort of uh functions.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it's that's a very good question.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's probably worth me trying to steal a concept that I've heard in previous, you know, previous roles from from leadership.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that concept is basically like a hierarchy or or ladder of uh partnership with customers.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: So it kind of says that each of these aspects is important.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: So at the basic foundational level, a customer should expect hygiene standards basically.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: What I've got from you works.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's you know, that's the foundation.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um sort of stepping up, stepping up that ladder, you know, not only is it working, but is it is it giving me the best it can?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Am I getting the most out of the solutions that I can?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the kind of customer success element that's a part of the role.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And as you kind of work up that, you start earning the right to talk about additional solutions.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: So you've got then the next run on that ladder, which is to look at, you know, how can we work with you to grow?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: How can we satisfy other challenges that you've got using the other solutions in our repertoire?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally, once you've kind of hit that mark, that's when you're sort of into true partnership space.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you've really kind of earned the right.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: But at the absolute foundations of this is the customer success part and the support and servicing part.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's you know it has to be a fairly even split, and you'll be at different journeys with each customer depending on the experience that they've been through or the experience they have currently.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: But it'll it'll vary.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you know, each of those components is is equally important, really.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I and I again, I mean, not to not to put too much pressure on you, but uh, you know, we target a small market, and and we target a small market as a specialist uh you know provider, and and I think you know, reputation is is absolutely paramount.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we're a member of the Actoris group, and and that's always being Actoris' credo, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is is just it's always being a customer-first mentality.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think, you know, we've we've also, I think, you know, over the history of our respective companies, we've benefited tremendously from a product and platform standpoint in the relationships that we've had with our customers.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, once upon a time the majority of our roadmaps, respectively, were driven by, you know, what customers were uh requesting from us.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, they were much more indicative of the market than than we were.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and we're talking about in the early onset of of the platforms.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, that that's shifted quite a bit.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Bit now.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, I you know, I I I like that analogy where where you've got this sort of you know hierarchy and and it's only when you satisfy the base criteria that you know those opportunities crop up.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, back to back to your point around um the sort of product leadership side, I suppose.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: So historically, this is revisiting a question that you asked maybe two or three ago, but one of the really exciting things that we've got at the moment is that is that transition into real product leadership.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got a really, really strong product team here, and we're now developing solutions that are properly cutting edge.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's not it's not just reacting to a requirement from the industry or a specific customer, it is kind of leading from the front in this automation space, um, implementation of AI, that kind of stuff, is um, yeah, it's it's just dragging us forward, which is very, very rapidly as well, which is very exciting.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things I've always kind of made the point of around kind of uh USP, Sonny, when talking about ICE is you know, it's it's actually that kind of domain level expertise in insurance itself.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and again, I was really shocked by that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I joined ICE thinking, oh, you know, it's the technology business for selling systems to insurance companies.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, to do that really well, you need people that really understand it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, insurance has got plenty of nuances, it's got more acronyms than probably anything anyone's ever ever known.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you can come in with that kind of industry experience, challenge the customers.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many times have we sat there and provided a really good piece of technology where someone wants to build really bad processes on a new piece of technology because that's how they did it, you know, two years ago.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: So coming in with that kind of uh experience is great.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: So again, you know, somebody like yourself with that experience is is superb.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's bolstering a much wider team with similar experiences you alluded to earlier.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've got it's a really nice balance with our technical experts that they are proper domain experts in terms of the engineering side, but they're also you know real experts in the insurance process side and also massively customer focused.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: So not only are they happy kind of coding and developing these products, they're also really proud of them and can you know talk talk the same language as the insurer customers.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that I think really gets across the benefits of how some of this stuff works and probably explains how ICE has gone from where it was to where it is now in the last you know sort of 10-15 years, um, just through having that real customer focus all the way out.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: That that's really kind of taken me not necessarily by surprise, but it's really impressed me coming into the business how willing everyone is to just engage with customers, work with them, collaborate.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's that's a really interesting and you know quite special part of how we operate really.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's I I I uh I echo that sentiment, obviously, in in in merging the two businesses together, it was a welcome surprise.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um how willing people are to jump in and help solve a problem.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Joe, as you as you sort of look out into the future, where do you think there are opportunities for improvement or growth?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, where would you like to, if you had a magic wand that you could wave with an unlimited amount of resources, I mean, what you know what what what opportunities do you think there are within the sort of commercial umbrella that that we operate in?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think geographically there's a massive opportunity.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: We've we've started to prove ourselves with you know deployments within New Zealand and various other countries, and I think that can only grow.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's very, very, you know, fair to say that there's differences, but there's also a lot of commonality between the insurance markets, particularly across you know the English-speaking countries, um, where I think you know, rolling out of ice is you know almost a no-brainer.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, the the the geography side, aside from that, I guess the product line side as well.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: So on the ice side, our our real strength has been in the, as I sort of mentioned earlier, the sort of home and and motor high volume space.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: But now we've got customers in the commercial line space, the pet space, you know, that that's growing really, really quickly as well.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: So that can only kind of continue to grow and diversify.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then in terms of the innovation that's going on, I think there's a real drive from the market to implement AI solutions in a responsible way.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we've kind of uh nailed the the portfolio that we've got and we'll be able to satisfy that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: So commercially, I think those are the sort of three areas of growth.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um one thing that I think will support with that is the the reputation.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that was mentioned earlier.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: So within our existing customer base, we've got real evidence and proof of successful, very quick deployment um and solving of problems, and that creates opportunity because you know the the clients have have left those scenarios with with successful solutions and a happy experience of delivery, and that puts us back into the mix when those customers naturally diversify into other other opportunities.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: This question's gonna come out of left field, but I'm just curious.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, does uh do we have anybody that writes cyber risk?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Lloyd?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we do.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think um we have a small micro-commercial company that uh that do and some elements of cyber.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely something that um that I've seen.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they that those guys do some really some really cool stuff in in terms of microcommercial.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'll I'll have a look into that and and double check, but I think they do.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm I'm fascinated by cyber as an emerging risk.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know it's been there for a long time, but I think, you know, with with the way AI is being used now, um on one hand, it's obviously a much more transparent risk for the average consumer, but on the opposite side, it it's that much harder to to risk manage, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just I'm fascinated by it because it could have a sort of hockey stick growth where the market transparency of it um is is far greater.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or at the same time, you know, underwriters might, for the most part, steer clear of it just because they it's such a difficult risk to figure out how to price and manage.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a I think with cyber the challenge is, you know, if you look if you use like a house household example, you know, you provide like a some insurance, or you know, along came unlimited cover for your building.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but actually what does that mean?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that you don't really need unlimited cover, it's never going to be unlimited because it's got a finite value and it's probably le a lot less than what the resale value is.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, arguably probably half.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so just saying unlimited doesn't mean anything.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas actually with that kind of whole cyberpiece, how big is it?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I remember talking to Under Eyes about this, and it scared the life out of them because they just genuinely didn't know how big it could be.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that it it just it's almost endless.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's kind of infinite in terms of the damage that it can it can do, but so important to to actually start to think about you're right, Elliot, in terms of you know, finding something that that offers protection against it.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Even though it's not a good idea.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think so.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: Going back to when I was broking, which is probably I don't know, seven, eight years ago now, cyber insurance was a thing, particularly in the corporate space.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: But even within corporate clients with very obvious cyber risks within their business that could be, you know, catastrophic should they come to fruition, there was still a bit of an understanding, a bit of skepticism around the necessity for cyber insurance.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: And you probably can take the same market challenge back a few years and look at things like directors and officers, where the risk around that wasn't understood, but eventually that started becoming commonplace within a commercial lines program.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're probably at that point with cyber, and I say this without huge expertise in the in the modern day, but the risk is so obvious now.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: We kind of talked about it earlier.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's news articles every single day about how this stuff's advancing so quickly.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think consumers and commercial clients will start to fully understand the point and the benefit of this sort of stuff, and that will naturally create a growth within that sector.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not to say that there's not growth there already.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: I know there's some some businesses like CFC who have absolutely nailed this sort of product.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, I can only see it going one way.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like you say, the the hockey stick is going to be something that is is much more appreciated in terms of its importance.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, particularly because I think you know, traditionally we think about it as like a liability cover, like more of a commercial product, but I think there's a personalized aspect to it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean but but again, that's where it becomes difficult to quantify because if your information is part of a data leak or whatever the I mean, you hear about this daily on the news cycle now, right?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it's the the potential that it's going to actually get used versus you know you know somebody actually having their you know identity impersonated or something, right?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I think it's I think it's it's easier, it's an easier business case on the commercial liability side because there are now fines that companies have to pay for these sort of things, like DNO, right?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean that's that's sort of like what gave birth to that uh DNO product was was just you know having some legislation around what the risk is and and what the fines are, and and cyber has that as well.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's a it's an ever-changing uh it's an ever-changing landscape because of AI legislation.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I I think particularly on the consumer side, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like would any of the three of us consider buying a cyber risk policy because our entire lives are online now, right?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I mean big skin, yeah, in in lots of senses.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that is a real that is a real worry of mine, you know, following what's happening with you know AI in the wider sense and that sort of stuff.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think it it does create a lot of risk for people and yeah, especially with I suppose you know online banking and and that sort of stuff, we're pretty vulnerable to that sort of thing as as individuals, so yeah, I I definitely would.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think there are well, I know there are products out there, so either sort of as add-ons or you know, within sort of packaged home insurance products.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I think that's another area of potential growth as well.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, as I say, massive scardy cat would definitely buy it if it was offered to me.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, because you think about it, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, I would be lost without my iPhone.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's got all my bank account details.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I store passwords in there, and and they're making apps now to store passwords, and you know, they're encouraging you to put more and more and more of this information online because ultimately it's not really on a phone, is it?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's up in iCloud.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and on top of that, you know, our homes are becoming more connected.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, our fridge freezer talks to the bloody internet now.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've everything is connected.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: How long before things are being sabotaged?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being held to uh held hostage personally because uh you know they won't let the wife out because you locked her in because they control the locks on the doors or something like that.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knows?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, just make exaggerate to make a point.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: But that's just her locking you out, Lloyd.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly exactly I can't use the lost the key thing anymore.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, quite right.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: But no, it it is, you know, you uh exaggerate to make a point, but you know, these risks aren't gonna get any less, are they?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're just gonna get more and more and more and bigger and bigger and bigger.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's definitely something to think about.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Funny analogy, actually, I couldn't find I have uh like a key for my house, a physical key, right?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then on the little keychain, I have so I have the house key, I have um mailbox key, and then I had the digital fob to get in and out of the gym I go to, and then rock climbing gym that I go to.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I was I couldn't find I couldn't find my keys for days.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't find my keys.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, well, on one hand, like it's just two physical keys, and everybody finds them, it's not the end of the world.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: But on the other hand, because I had those fobs on there, I mean somebody could have walked into the rock climbers and said, Oh, you know, can you give me my and then they would have had my home address.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, I found the keys.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good thing.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it again, it just goes to illustrate like how much of our lives are are yeah, at risk.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh this didn't I wasn't intending for this to be a conversation about cybersecurity, but um, yeah, it's just it's something that's been on my mind lately, and I probably brought it brought it up in in past episodes.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're starting to legit we're starting to legislate here as well, right, Elliot?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're going on about it a bit more, but you know, like uh precarious images that people are using against other people, you know, revenge issue, you know, it's it's a massive issue.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Massive issue.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's uh getting a lawyer hat back on now.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's advancing so quickly.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: How do governments keep up with it?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: How can you possibly legislate for the rate of innovation and progress that we're seeing?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad it's I'm glad it's not my job.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad I chose InsureTech and not the law, because yeah, it's well above my pay grade.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's it, that's it.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, c can the Joe of 2008-2009 ever have predicted that this is where he'd be sitting 15 or 16 years later?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, absolutely not.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think he probably didn't look too far in front of his nose.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: It was very much what was happening tomorrow.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, I'd like to say I was more organized than thought, you know, about a 15-year plan, but no, I was I was living a good life, but it wasn't a long-term plan.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Joe, uh, one last question.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and and Lloyd, I'll pass the mic to you if you have anything else, but just your thoughts on what the next you know six, twelve months looks like, what's exciting you, um, what's on the horizon for you within the context of of our business.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I suppose personally, um, you know, still relatively new to the role, I'm really looking forward to sort of getting out in the market a bit more and getting a better understanding of our customers, meeting them as individuals.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really important part of this job for me.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, really excited that we've got you know a client day next next month, which will allow us to meet you know quite a lot of the customer base in one place, which will be really good.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think for me, you know, my kind of my confidence comes from a real understanding of of what we do in terms of products and offerings.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got to get my head around that.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm starting to understand it.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: But there's you know, we've touched on it earlier, there's a huge breadth to it, and I really want to make sure that I've nailed the understanding, which you know gives me gives me comfort when I'm in the market talking about what we do, but also it'll allow me to understand the client's problems and know whether or not we've got solutions that will support with that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I think in the short term, my my key focus is getting to know the market, getting to know our business, and yeah, just building from from that base.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: And of course meeting me.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: I've already met you many times, I would have said that otherwise.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: In in in person, yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's true, yeah.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: That would be good.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: You you don't I mean you've only seen from here up, that's it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have, yeah.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: I could be seven foot six, you don't know.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I thought I thought about seven foot five, seven, six.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: Stretched out from all the rock climbing.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, wait, anything else from your side?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was really interesting to talk to you.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the only thing I would have I probably would have asked, which I think I know the answer these days, because everyone's talking about the same thing.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean you've obviously met quite a few of the uh the clients now, Joe.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: You've you've you've kind of been around to a few meetings and stuff and just wondered, you know, what what's the themes out there?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: What are existing clients talking about?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are they what's on the what's on the radar other than the obvious that I think might start with an A and end in an I.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's it.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Without sounding like a broken record, that that is a huge focus.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think there is um there's a big push within you know multi-industries, not just ours, to look at where efficiencies could be gained, where there's opportunity to scale whilst maintaining a you know a reasonable cost base.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know AI has got to be a part of that solution, deployed in a sensible way, you know, you know, in a risk-managed way.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I think that that's the kind of key message.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, aside with, you know, there's there's still opportunities out there.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: The market seems buoyant and healthy, particularly in the sort of motor space.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that that's gonna grow opportunity for insurers and hopefully inevitably for us off the back of that.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, I think I think that's the key thing, being, you know, the automation, the efficiency, and just growing out of the product offering and you know, almost visiting one of the steps on that sort of hierarchy ladder.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what are we doing to make sure that we're getting the absolute most we can out of the solutions that we've got, and you know, that's that's where I'm sort of keen to help our customers get what they need to get.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Cheers, church.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Joe, it's been it's been great having you on.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Great conversation.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks for having me.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll I'll I'll be over your neck of the woods in a few weeks.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you will get to see all seven foot six of me then.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: I look forward to it.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds intimidating, but it should be fun.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Lloyd, thanks again for the conversation.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back again next week.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Take care, everyone.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, guys.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.