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Idan Driman - The Strongest Brands Make You Feel Something · Stacked with Jennifer Laforge

• 0:00
  Jen LaForge: Good morning, good afternoon.
• 0:01
  Jen LaForge: Welcome to this episode of Stacked.
• 0:03
  Jen LaForge: I'm joined today by Idan Druman, the Vice President of Marketing for Pet Value, a very Canadian brand.
• 0:09
  Jen LaForge: So very excited for the Canadian perspective that you're going to bring today, but also talk within the loyalty and reward space.
• 0:18
  Jen LaForge: We've had a very lively conversation before we sat down today.
• 0:22
  Jen LaForge: So again, very excited for this chat.
• 0:25
  Jen LaForge: Being in the space, being a very Canadian brand, you've been impacted by the past seven years in terms of the micro, macroeconomic shifts, tariffs, consumer behavior.
• 0:36
  Jen LaForge: What would you say in the past five years has been the biggest change to customer loyalty in Canada?
• 0:46
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 0:46
  Idan Driman: So first of all, thanks for having me.
• 0:48
  Idan Driman: That's fun.
• 0:48
  Idan Driman: And I always like to speak marketing and everything around it.
• 0:52
  Idan Driman: So thanks for the opportunity.
• 0:53
  Idan Driman: Of course.
• 0:53
  Idan Driman: I think, and I'll then connect it to loyalty.
• 1:01
  Idan Driman: I think that's a good example of how I would say there's something that impacts the value trade-off through elasticity.
• 1:10
  Idan Driman: So I would say people through that time with the buy local would see two options.
• 1:18
  Idan Driman: Again, most of the time we see in research that value is what determines what they choose, but there is now a new component that can impact that.
• 1:28
  Idan Driman: And what changes, especially with buy local, is uh the elasticity.
• 1:32
  Idan Driman: So in specific times when we knew that was a high, high, like a hot topic and really important to people, so they would like choose something like a product or retailer or a brand based on the fact that they are Canadian or made in Canada.
• 1:50
  Idan Driman: And they would really kind of, I wouldn't say compromise, but be willing to kind of give up on potentially monetary value in exchange, or give up a lot.
• 2:02
  Idan Driman: So let's just take an example.
• 2:04
  Idan Driman: There's two products, right?
• 2:06
  Idan Driman: And $1 and $1.
• 2:07
  Idan Driman: Or $2 and $1.
• 2:09
  Idan Driman: In a regular place, I'm going to go with the $1.
• 2:11
  Idan Driman: Let's, again, very simplifying it, forget about all the other variables.
• 2:15
  Idan Driman: But with that bilocal movement, now I'm willing to pay $2.
• 2:19
  Idan Driman: And when it was a, as I mentioned, hot topic and really relevant to people, they would go to four and five, then back to two, then back to five.
• 2:26
  Idan Driman: So I don't think it I don't see it as a binary binary thing that like I'm going to buy it or not going to buy it.
• 2:33
  Idan Driman: But I think the elasticity changed over time.
• 2:36
  Idan Driman: And that takes us to loyalty.
• 2:40
  Idan Driman: Again, I think loyalty and components of loyalty would really impact the elasticity.
• 2:45
  Idan Driman: How a customer would make a decision and take into account other factors than pure value or pure price.
• 2:57
  Jen LaForge: Right.
• 2:57
  Jen LaForge: So almost the Buy Canadian movement sounded like it was another value add that helped with the consumer's decision making in that we've got the same products, we've got very similar pricing.
• 3:10
  Jen LaForge: I'm going to pick pet value because it's Canadian.
• 3:14
  Jen LaForge: And that did you see a huge increase in acquisition of new customers through that movement, the Bi-Canadian movement?
• 3:22
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 3:22
  Idan Driman: So I think if I look at it almost as a math equation, I I would, again, going back to the term elasticity rather than another value add or another variable, right?
• 3:32
  Idan Driman: Because again, first of all, I do believe customers will look for the greatest value, and that's included the quality and the price and the expertise and other variables in that equation.
• 3:44
  Idan Driman: I think their attachment to specific brand, the elasticity of that attachment, regardless of how the difference between those variables and other competition will change based on buying local, as one example, but that's kind of a changing example.
• 4:02
  Idan Driman: If you think about loyalty or brand, that those are elements are like more sustainable ones or more, I would say, um stable ones that will impact the elasticity of your of your of your purchase decision.
• 4:18
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 4:18
  Jen LaForge: So the the product loyalty is still a significant player in the decision while it was benefited from a by-Canadian movement as a Canadian company, you're saying that the the product elasticity and loyalty was still the a key driver, is that safe to say?
• 4:36
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 4:36
  Idan Driman: And I and I look at I think I look at it for if I look at it from our point of view when we decide our marketing plans, right?
• 4:42
  Idan Driman: So definitely, and we try to be customer-centric, right?
• 4:46
  Idan Driman: Trying to follow what most important customers and what again, again, going back to the decision, uh, so there are things that we usually really focus when our marketing to align with pet value core differentiators.
• 5:01
  Idan Driman: Talking about the quality selection of products, curated quality selection of products.
• 5:06
  Idan Driman: Our service, which has expertise, has this special community connection, uh local and everywhere.
• 5:15
  Idan Driman: But at those times, we learned, we have said the weight of us calling the fact that we are probably local and probably Canadian company kind of got more space in the hierarchy because it got more impact on the elasticity of the decision.
• 5:29
  Idan Driman: But we still called out the other things that make us on the long term uh uh defringed us uh in in the market.
• 5:36
  Idan Driman: So I think that's that's kind of how we tackled it and and uh again aligned ourselves with the customer.
• 5:43
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 5:43
  Jen LaForge: I will comment on your your the customer service.
• 5:47
  Jen LaForge: Um pet value has always remembered my pet's name.
• 5:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Jen LaForge: The competitors have not.
• 5:52
  Jen LaForge: Um I definitely feel it when I go into the store that it uh that is a distinguishing factor uh with your brand, I would say.
• 5:59
  Idan Driman: And I and I appreciate that.
• 6:00
  Idan Driman: And I again to make my earlier point, again, that we call those memorable moments.
• 6:05
  Idan Driman: And it's this is a true differentiator and true a value or factor for a customer.
• 6:11
  Idan Driman: I would challenge like is by itself, is that gonna drive someone to buy?
• 6:17
  Idan Driman: No, because they also want a great product.
• 6:20
  Idan Driman: They want it to be of a great value.
• 6:22
  Idan Driman: They they want the expertise, the other elements that we offer.
• 6:26
  Idan Driman: But again, having that one will make you think twice before you you're gonna start uh in a more sustainable way, before you're gonna start to say, okay, let me compare the value, the expertise, and the other elements.
• 6:39
  Idan Driman: So that's that's what I mean by elasticity.
• 6:41
  Idan Driman: So again, the the the buy the buying local or any other element like that is how much it kind of with existing customer it's it's build a resilient and and and uh and kind of make sure that you stay on your course with with with with our brand or or for any brand.
• 7:01
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 7:01
  Idan Driman: And and it it just uh the resilience again and and and the in the in the fact that they the loyalty, you can call it loyalty as well.
• 7:09
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 7:10
  Jen LaForge: Canadians, I just recently learned uh this fact, but Canadians are very emotional when it comes to their pets, uh a lot more than some other countries and cultures.
• 7:21
  Jen LaForge: And we treat our pets as family.
• 7:23
  Idan Driman: Correct.
• 7:24
  Jen LaForge: And we put them in strollers and we buy them winter coats and little booties.
• 7:27
  Jen LaForge: And so um, for me it was surprising because I thought the whole world was like this.
• 7:32
  Jen LaForge: So given how emotional Canadians are with their pets, um, let's let's talk about the emotional connection that marketers are misunderstanding about customer value today.
• 7:46
  Idan Driman: Yeah, 100%.
• 7:47
  Idan Driman: And uh so I'll actually start with an example.
• 7:52
  Idan Driman: Like one of the things that I like to do uh is to be a guest speaker at uh uh in in universities, in classes.
• 8:00
  Idan Driman: Uh I like it one, it's kind of giving back like uh to the community of the next future of uh marketers.
• 8:08
  Idan Driman: Also, I learn a lot.
• 8:09
  Idan Driman: Like, you know, once you're in your space, you're kind of having your own uh uh your own box, and it helps you like kind of knock the box and get you to new ideas and uh uh and see the things that uh outside uh uh of your box.
• 8:25
  Idan Driman: Uh so it's a it's it's something that I really like to do and uh proactively trying to do.
• 8:30
  Idan Driman: I always start those uh guest picking uh uh events with an exercise.
• 8:37
  Idan Driman: First of all, I introduce myself uh through brands.
• 8:40
  Idan Driman: Okay.
• 8:41
  Idan Driman: So this is the this is the brands that if I need to see who is it done, that includes sports team like Toronto Raptors, uh NBA, it also includes Jordans, because I'm a middle-age who try to stay relevant and hip.
• 8:53
  Idan Driman: So that's my way.
• 8:54
  Idan Driman: Much cheaper than than having a Porsche brand.
• 8:57
  Idan Driman: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:57
  Idan Driman: So that's my to my defense.
• 8:59
  Idan Driman: But I so I and other brands that defines me.
• 9:02
  Idan Driman: And then I ask the students to do uh the same, and it's fascinating to like the start of thing.
• 9:08
  Idan Driman: And that entire exercise is to show that value of connection, brand connection, brand uh um I would say even validation.
• 9:18
  Idan Driman: Because when you did when you choose that brand to be part of your uh introduction, it also validates for you who you are.
• 9:25
  Idan Driman: So validation, belonging, uh uh connection.
• 9:29
  Idan Driman: And it shows the power.
• 9:31
  Idan Driman: And for me, that's the North Star of branding, like of uh where a brand really wants to come.
• 9:36
  Idan Driman: When a person would say, when I introduce myself, I want you to know that I that's that's the brand that says something about me, that's the validation and also the belonging.
• 9:47
  Idan Driman: I want to be part of those group of people that have this connection with the brand.
• 9:52
  Idan Driman: That's not that not star.
• 9:54
  Idan Driman: And if we connect it to where we spoke earlier, when you be in purchase decision, and that's the connection with branding and purchase decision, if you have that connection, the ability of someone else to try and take you and use or go to their brand would be very difficult.
• 10:11
  Jen LaForge: I I was gonna move on, but I want to stay here for a second because I think it's you triggered an interesting thought around um the emotional connection and the community and the belonging with your customers.
• 10:23
  Jen LaForge: Um almost seems like that work in of itself is a loyalty program.
• 10:27
  Jen LaForge: How is that different from a loyalty program or is it the same as a loyalty program, just different mechanisms?
• 10:34
  Idan Driman: So I'll take I'll take a step back and I'll say like what makes, and uh I'll connect it to that question.
• 10:41
  Idan Driman: I think what makes loyalty programs, so loyalty uh needed is it it needs to be meaningful to the customer.
• 10:49
  Idan Driman: And then I think that's where it will tie in.
• 10:52
  Idan Driman: It needs to be differentiated, right?
• 10:55
  Idan Driman: And it needs to be uh financially profitable in the long term, right?
• 11:01
  Idan Driman: So uh and there's the fourth one that came recently, which is like loyalty programs also became a source to get data that you then can market it, market it again.
• 11:11
  Idan Driman: My my point, so yes, there are loyalty programs, and luckily for us as marketers and uh and loyalty leaders, uh there is more technology now than enable more sophisticated way to do it.
• 11:22
  Idan Driman: But I do agree with you that those components are part of it.
• 11:26
  Idan Driman: And when you have those components, it it like it it is part of the loyalty because it that goes back to the meaningful and the differentiated and in a way makes your loyalty program more or ecosystem more profitable.
• 11:39
  Idan Driman: Like uh knowing your your uh pet's uh name, that's simple.
• 11:45
  Idan Driman: Like that's basically cost nothing, and it apparently impacted you and added to your loyalty.
• 11:51
  Idan Driman: So is it officially part of the legal copy of the loyalty program?
• 11:56
  Idan Driman: No.
• 11:56
  Idan Driman: But uh I I would call it part of uh the loyalty or what makes the loyalty and a loyalty tool as well.
• 12:02
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 12:02
  Jen LaForge: It's probably uh there's probably some data here that it is a distinguisher between a successful loyalty program and not a successful loyalty program, I would think.
• 12:12
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 12:13
  Jen LaForge: This is fantastic.
• 12:14
  Jen LaForge: So I'm gonna switch over to uh campaigns, your marketing.
• 12:18
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Jen LaForge: It's campaign after campaign after campaign.
• 12:21
  Jen LaForge: Why do some brand platforms become campaigns while others become movements?
• 12:29
  Idan Driman: To me, it I'll start with one word and I'll expand on that uh and maybe give some examples like authnicity.
• 12:37
  Idan Driman: For me, that's what differentiates even a great campaign to something that becomes a movement or brand platform.
• 12:45
  Idan Driman: When I say authnicity, I mean we as brand leaders are storytellers, but uh we can do a lot of great storytelling.
• 12:54
  Idan Driman: The best storytelling when it lays on the foundation of a strong story, differentiate story, story that is true to your brand.
• 13:02
  Idan Driman: That's when it hit gold.
• 13:04
  Idan Driman: So I give two examples.
• 13:05
  Idan Driman: One of ours, and the second uh inspiration for me.
• 13:09
  Idan Driman: Like uh so we actually started as a campaign uh five years ago, Love Lives Here.
• 13:16
  Idan Driman: It started as a campaign.
• 13:17
  Idan Driman: I think the key success factor behind it is like we through the brief, we really made sure it ties back to the brand.
• 13:22
  Idan Driman: It speaks exactly to the moment that you spoke earlier with your pet, the good things, the bad things that you experienced owning a pet and being part of the family.
• 13:33
  Idan Driman: And was really true to the core differentiators of pet value, local and everywhere, uh, memorable moments, the products, quality curated uh uh products, uh, and expertise.
• 13:47
  Idan Driman: So we really built that campaign and it resonated so well among both what we call devoted pet lovers, our customers, and animal care experts, our internal associates, and and uh uh and it we it was so kind of successful with both of those audiences that we basically grew to be our long-term brand platform.
• 14:08
  Idan Driman: And and the following campaigns basically kind of fell under this lab uh leaves here.
• 14:14
  Idan Driman: Uh, one example I'll share is we saw uh it comes to life in store without us asking.
• 14:21
  Idan Driman: That's when you know that becomes a brand platform because organically, store associates start to decorate and put love leaves here.
• 14:28
  Idan Driman: Another example I remember there was uh two executives had a kind of a training session and they spoke about collaboration, and they wrote on the whiteboard behind them Love Leaves Here.
• 14:38
  Idan Driman: Nobody told them to write it, and like that that means that really resonated.
• 14:43
  Idan Driman: So that's that's on paid value.
• 14:45
  Idan Driman: Another one that just happening now, and I'm watching it and and with fascination, both as a fan, but both as a as a brand person, uh, is Toronto Tempo.
• 14:57
  Idan Driman: I would give it as an example that something that they really, the team there, uh, turned it into basically a movement.
• 15:04
  Idan Driman: Uh and they build a brand from scratch, which is really a tough challenge.
• 15:09
  Idan Driman: And they did because of authenticity.
• 15:11
  Idan Driman: Everything that they did, like it was back to the values that they they uh uh created and aligned with with that team and with that uh initiative.
• 15:22
  Idan Driman: They even with with the when they chose the name, they involve uh the fans.
• 15:27
  Idan Driman: So the fans like me are feeling that they are part of the the end the end results with partnership selection, uh with the ownership, uh including uh uh this the uh basically adding uh uh significant owners to the to that organization.
• 15:45
  Idan Driman: Anything that they did, like this honestly gonna think would be taught that it's a masterclass.
• 15:49
  Idan Driman: And I see it exactly to your question.
• 15:50
  Idan Driman: That's when it becomes a movement.
• 15:52
  Jen LaForge: That that's a fantastic answer.
• 15:54
  Jen LaForge: Um and you you hit on one of my favorite words, which is partnerships, which was my next question to you.
• 16:00
  Jen LaForge: And it's it's again talking about that being memorable.
• 16:03
  Jen LaForge: But like what separates a memorable brand partnership from a transactional one?
• 16:09
  Idan Driman: Yeah, so I think there's a few factors.
• 16:12
  Idan Driman: Not all of them have to come together, but when they come together, you get more than the sum of the of the parts.
• 16:18
  Idan Driman: Uh I mentioned meaningful before, and I think it's again, it's really has to be meaningful to the customer.
• 16:24
  Idan Driman: Like that the one plus one equals three in a way.
• 16:26
  Idan Driman: I know it doesn't make sense mathematically, but uh it happens uh when when that partnership uh arrives.
• 16:33
  Idan Driman: I think the second thing is there is alignment with the two brands.
• 16:37
  Idan Driman: When that happens, and I'll give an example in a second, I think that adds uh another thing.
• 16:42
  Idan Driman: And I think when it really hits is is when the the partnership is obvious, but when it's actually the reaction is like, those, oh that's that that makes sense.
• 16:54
  Idan Driman: That's when that happened.
• 16:56
  Idan Driman: So exam uh and I I can say being as a Canadian uh brand in a in a such a space like pets, we get a lot of inquiries and asks to partner.
• 17:10
  Idan Driman: I feel I wish I would feel this way when I was in high school and university.
• 17:13
  Idan Driman: Like a lot of people want to date with us.
• 17:14
  Idan Driman: So it gives us the privilege to select.
• 17:17
  Idan Driman: And when we select and we we prioritize a partnership or partnership, as we call it at pet value, uh we do it trying to get all those three.
• 17:27
  Idan Driman: So, one example, we had uh those partnerships with uh with uh Remax.
• 17:32
  Idan Driman: Uh so again, back to those three.
• 17:34
  Idan Driman: It was meaningful.
• 17:35
  Idan Driman: We talked about pet first uh move, a topic that is important, especially for someone who considers the pet to be a part of the family.
• 17:43
  Idan Driman: There was alignment between the brands.
• 17:45
  Idan Driman: When you think about it, it's both national brands, has presence in Canada, rely on expertise, rely on connection between agent or animal care experts and the person.
• 17:55
  Idan Driman: Really important uh connection.
• 17:57
  Idan Driman: And I think that when it came to the market, it was like Remax, pet value?
• 18:02
  Idan Driman: Oh, that makes lots of sense.
• 18:03
  Idan Driman: So that that's that same when we did the sport sponsorship with the Canucks.
• 18:08
  Idan Driman: Again, we could just stick our logo, but we what we did, we really kind of integrate with pets and the players and their pets.
• 18:15
  Idan Driman: Uh, and the same with other partnerships.
• 18:17
  Idan Driman: So trying to get those three together, I think that will make it like a meaningful partnership for and uh uh uh unexpected, but but meaningful uh for the for the customer.
• 18:29
  Jen LaForge: Perfect.
• 18:29
  Jen LaForge: I had uh a great conversation with Leslie Hawkins uh around the alignment of values when it comes to to partnerships within the space.
• 18:37
  Jen LaForge: So I think you and her would have a very lively conversation there.
• 18:41
  Jen LaForge: That's awesome.
• 18:42
  Jen LaForge: Um so uh let me know, I'll I'll make the connection.
• 18:45
  Jen LaForge: Um but i I think there's also what I'm I'm hearing is this growing need for community, belonging, values, and it's being driven from a cultural change around we need sustainability and we need uh to be treating our workers fair.
• 19:06
  Jen LaForge: And so customers are not just expecting what they want at a good price.
• 19:11
  Jen LaForge: They're the expectations on brands are much higher.
• 19:14
  Jen LaForge: Community and belonging seems very high in that list, but some some brands are still not connecting the dots.
• 19:21
  Jen LaForge: So, what do you think is the number one thing brands are underestimating when it comes to the value of community and belonging?
• 19:31
  Idan Driman: I think again, the other part that you mentioned that they go in chasing, it's it's you can see a really clear return, right?
• 19:38
  Idan Driman: An immediate return.
• 19:39
  Idan Driman: So like that's usually what drives it.
• 19:42
  Idan Driman: I think what they underestimate and the benefit of that is again, I'm going back to brand resilience.
• 19:48
  Idan Driman: Like it gives you on the long term that resilience that when you're gonna be in the situation that you're now competing on those elements of short like short-term value or that things that you might have less impact or ability to differentiate, or you have to invest to differentiate, uh, then you have that brand resilience that's not always gonna win you that battle, but uh first of all, among the loyal customer has gives you a better chance and it gives you a better chance to introduce a new customer.
• 20:20
  Idan Driman: So I really I really identify that as a brand resilience.
• 20:23
  Idan Driman: Again, the challenge and why I guess like brands sometimes uh decide to uh or misvalue, uh undervalue that piece because it's it's it's it's difficult to measure.
• 20:36
  Idan Driman: Yes.
• 20:37
  Idan Driman: And if you measure, you're measuring in the long uh measure it in the long run, which naturally it's it's more difficult.
• 20:42
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 20:43
  Jen LaForge: We all know how important trust is with uh our relationship with customers.
• 20:46
  Jen LaForge: Would you say building that community and the belonging makes uh not only earning that trust, but keeping the trust with your customer easier?
• 20:55
  Idan Driman: Yeah, I think it is.
• 20:56
  Idan Driman: And I would say one thing about trust, and again, that's part of it.
• 21:01
  Idan Driman: It's very difficult to build.
• 21:03
  Idan Driman: It's something that you like we wish as marketers we can like say one message and we build a trust, or we have an amazing campaign and suddenly trust build.
• 21:12
  Idan Driman: Trust is built over time, both through marketing and both through interactions and stuff like that.
• 21:17
  Idan Driman: Uh as again, as the example you gave uh earlier, the other piece with trust, it can be broken very fast and very quickly.
• 21:26
  Idan Driman: Uh so it's a tough area, uh, but uh uh and the benefit is is a long, long-term one.
• 21:34
  Idan Driman: So again, that's resilience is is it's it's it's a topic, it's something that difficult you need to invest in, and i it it's difficult to maintain, but that that would uh uh have a trust to be part of it.
• 21:48
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 21:48
  Jen LaForge: Well, I just want to call out John at Pet Value.
• 21:51
  Jen LaForge: I trust you completely.
• 21:52
  Jen LaForge: Thank you.
• 21:53
  Jen LaForge: Uh he also he also offered to carry out my cat letter.
• 21:56
  Idan Driman: So And I I I want to thank John.
• 21:58
  Idan Driman: You are more important than every marketing effort that we'll do as a marketing team.
• 22:04
  Idan Driman: Like that, that's that's the best marketing channel, John.
• 22:07
  Idan Driman: Uh 100%.
• 22:08
  Idan Driman: So thank you, John.
• 22:10
  Jen LaForge: John, you deserve a raise.
• 22:11
  Idan Driman: Yes.
• 22:11
  Idan Driman: No, I didn't say that.
• 22:12
  Jen LaForge: Every every every John at Pep Value is gonna be reached out.
• 22:16
  Jen LaForge: I'm gonna switch gears a little bit here so I don't get you in any more trouble.
• 22:22
  Jen LaForge: But uh uh you're very passionate about marketing.
• 22:27
  Jen LaForge: Um there's two sides.
• 22:29
  Jen LaForge: Um there's a lot of sides, but the two main components is is the brand marketing side and the performance uh side.
• 22:36
  Jen LaForge: How do brands balance that and what are they getting wrong?
• 22:41
  Idan Driman: So I'll start with quoting um Arthur Fleischman.
• 22:45
  Idan Driman: I saw him uh speaking in one event, and he said one of the things that we as marketers, if I remember correctly, uh doing wrong is uh using the term performance marketing outside of brand.
• 22:59
  Idan Driman: Because immediately when you say performance marketing versus brand marketing, you assume brand does not drive performance.
• 23:04
  Idan Driman: And that would lead, I think, to my answer that, and again, it made me think a lot, so I'm thankful for that kind of trigger of thought.
• 23:15
  Idan Driman: But uh I think we the biggest mistake is we think they are independent of each other.
• 23:20
  Idan Driman: That's one.
• 23:21
  Idan Driman: Like I think performance marketing is brand marketing, marketing has performance marketing, and I would really uh try to use uh uh make us uh uh or challenge us to think about different terms, like even performance brand or brand performance or conversion performance, but have performance in brand because brand marketing drives performance.
• 23:43
  Idan Driman: Uh and it's not missing it.
• 23:45
  Idan Driman: There is a lot of research around it and data around it.
• 23:48
  Idan Driman: Uh and from that, understanding that they are uh not independent, uh as I mentioned, there is performance in brand, and in performance marketing as well, you should integrate brand.
• 23:59
  Idan Driman: Like, because that's what will differentiate performance marketing.
• 24:02
  Idan Driman: And I can tell you, I can say at pet value, as an example, we send our creative teams to TikTok, to uh Pinterest, and for all the other platforms as well, as well as Google to really understand it and then make sure that our brand appears even in performance marketing, because and we saw that was another contribution to the to uh better results in our in our again, performance marketing uh or let's call it conversion performance uh uh stream.
• 24:30
  Idan Driman: So I think that that's one thing, like looking at them together.
• 24:34
  Idan Driman: We also know that that conversion performance or performance marketing stream will perform better when they is at the same time brand marketing, because you explaining the customer the why before you ask them to convert at the same time.
• 24:47
  Idan Driman: So I really see I will challenge us to think it as together.
• 24:53
  Idan Driman: I think we think about separately because it's easier.
• 24:56
  Idan Driman: It's always easy to categorize things and like say, okay, because in that exception of performance marketing, we can easily see the results in brand marketing.
• 25:05
  Idan Driman: But I think that might be one of the drivers that we see less in some cases, some brands do late's brand marketing, because now the assumption that's that's not performance as well.
• 25:15
  Jen LaForge: Uh I gotta say I completely agree for all the marketers that I have upset by my uh my two very defined categories.
• 25:22
  Jen LaForge: I do agree and I I understand the value, but you sounded like the perfect marketing guy there.
• 25:27
  Idan Driman: No, just to clarify, I I do that the same.
• 25:29
  Idan Driman: I call it performance marketing because that's easy to like, and I call it brand marketing, and I I I I created slides that had those two separate together.
• 25:36
  Idan Driman: So I I will admit that because then it's easy to communicate.
• 25:39
  Idan Driman: That is uh sometimes part of your storytelling, you try to communicate something, but I think in the long term, it it kind of hurts us as marketers.
• 25:48
  Idan Driman: Also, I truly believe in marketing there is the science, but it's also the art.
• 25:53
  Idan Driman: And I think uh, and I'm not the only one who says that.
• 25:57
  Idan Driman: Uh we kind of went because we got most tools for the science, so we got excited and we went all the way to the science.
• 26:03
  Idan Driman: But we kind of uh uh need to maintain that art, that gut feeling, that creativity uh as part of it.
• 26:10
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, the pendulum, right?
• 26:11
  Jen LaForge: We always swing far too, uh I'm always conscious of the pendulum.
• 26:15
  Jen LaForge: Um, this fantastic segue is in.
• 26:18
  Jen LaForge: Um, but at the top of the call, I had asked you about the uh by Canadian movement um and the impact on pet value because of that.
• 26:26
  Jen LaForge: And I I like your response because you didn't tell me that you went all in to optimize on that moment and capture as many new customers as possible because you were trying to take advantage of the time and space.
• 26:40
  Jen LaForge: Um, but let's talk about what quietly breaks when some marketing teams do optimize for short-term convenience like that.
• 26:49
  Jen LaForge: And and what is the impact um to the overall the customer value for you?
• 26:54
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 26:54
  Idan Driman: So first of all, I'll start with the buying local, just going back to that.
• 26:57
  Idan Driman: Again, to be honest, like we did went and we did amp up, uh, which again goes back to ethnicity.
• 27:05
  Idan Driman: It's a true story.
• 27:06
  Idan Driman: I'm not inventing that.
• 27:07
  Idan Driman: We are probably local, probably Canadian company.
• 27:09
  Idan Driman: So we're telling this true story and we also differentiate it.
• 27:12
  Idan Driman: We just didn't say Canadian, we spoke of what makes us Canadian about ourselves.
• 27:17
  Idan Driman: We carry many Canada products.
• 27:19
  Idan Driman: We are having more than 700 locations that are connected to the Canadian community.
• 27:23
  Idan Driman: We are giving back to the Canadian community.
• 27:25
  Idan Driman: So we spoke about that, not just putting the flag out there.
• 27:29
  Jen LaForge: You leveraged, you didn't capitalize.
• 27:31
  Idan Driman: Correct.
• 27:31
  Idan Driman: With relevancy and authentic authenticity.
• 27:34
  Idan Driman: Okay.
• 27:34
  Idan Driman: Now I need a reminder of a question because in my age, I can keep it in the case.
• 27:39
  Idan Driman: No, I get it, I get it.
• 27:40
  Jen LaForge: So uh the question was what breaks if a brand optimizes for short-term conversion or convenient?
• 27:46
  Idan Driman: So first it goes back, or we spoke about uh brand resilience.
• 27:50
  Idan Driman: So that's one thing.
• 27:50
  Idan Driman: You start to lose the investment in resilience and and it has will have a long-term impact.
• 27:56
  Idan Driman: The second one is effectiveness.
• 27:58
  Idan Driman: When you get to that loop, you get you get to that loop of like we will have to reinvest again and again and again.
• 28:02
  Idan Driman: So every investment will be great, but you have to go and reinvest it to see the same re the same return.
• 28:10
  Idan Driman: I think there's almost also an impact on the culture of the team because you lose some of your customer centricity when you do it, because I think you undervalue the customer when you look in the very short term, because that's not how the customer thinks it thinks it like the customer isn't is rational sometimes and irrational sometimes, right?
• 28:31
  Idan Driman: Like it like it they are more complex than convert return, convert return.
• 28:35
  Idan Driman: So I think it uh it moves you away to think like the customer and and mirror the way you communicate with them as well.
• 28:44
  Idan Driman: Like you communicate just like server need, server need.
• 28:47
  Idan Driman: That's not truly how the customer uh uh behave, and that's not their journey.
• 28:53
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 28:54
  Jen LaForge: Now I'm gonna put you in the hot seat as a marketer.
• 28:56
  Jen LaForge: Uh I'm I'm done being nice.
• 29:00
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 29:01
  Jen LaForge: Uh in no, in our experience.
• 29:02
  Jen LaForge: I'm changing position.
• 29:03
  Jen LaForge: In our experience in the affiliate space, we've we've run into a lot of marketers, leadership that either really understand and appreciate the value of affiliate marketing, uh, which is our space with cashback, or don't appreciate it or don't s see it as having a place uh within their overall marketing strategy.
• 29:27
  Jen LaForge: Now, I think it's up to 20% of all e-commerce is running through the affiliate space right now.
• 29:32
  Jen LaForge: 10 years ago it was five.
• 29:33
  Jen LaForge: This is huge.
• 29:34
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 29:35
  Jen LaForge: What is your opinion on affiliates as a tool to drive your brand value and retention of your customers?
• 29:45
  Idan Driman: Yeah, so I think I'll go.
• 29:46
  Idan Driman: I think you made one comment about the place of it.
• 29:50
  Idan Driman: And I think one thing that has changed over the years with marketing, it used to be much more simple, which in one way it's uh uh it's uh a shame because our work is more complex, but now, but in the other uh on the other side it's it's more interesting right now.
• 30:07
  Idan Driman: Uh but the customer journey is much more complex, complex is today.
• 30:12
  Idan Driman: Uh it used to be uh maybe one step, two steps.
• 30:16
  Idan Driman: Uh I'll speak about uh pet value, it was like mostly flyer, uh print flyer, and check the flyer and go to shop, right?
• 30:24
  Idan Driman: Now you have so many touch points.
• 30:27
  Idan Driman: Uh I think the answer is depend on the customer journey.
• 30:31
  Idan Driman: So I think each brand should look and understand and really be clear on what their customer journey and uh and then apply.
• 30:41
  Idan Driman: And now we have many tools and channels and marketing vehicles that we can meet that customer in that journey.
• 30:48
  Idan Driman: So understand the journey and then understand what is the role of affiliate in that journey.
• 30:53
  Idan Driman: And I think there is a role and leverage for that.
• 30:58
  Idan Driman: Like I don't believe in like everyone will hears the playbook and it's 10% of that and 5% of that, and like it's true for every everything.
• 31:06
  Idan Driman: It's like fortunately for me, I I I think because my career was through completely different customer journeys.
• 31:13
  Idan Driman: I've been in Sirius Canada, that was one customer journey.
• 31:16
  Idan Driman: Whole trend fruit, that's completely different customer journey.
• 31:19
  Idan Driman: Toys are us and babies are us.
• 31:21
  Idan Driman: Completely different customer journey, and now pet value when you have a customer and and you they shop for someone else.
• 31:28
  Idan Driman: So it it allowed me to understand that uh it's not a copy-paste, and it is not my answer to your question will be there's not one answer.
• 31:37
  Idan Driman: It will be first to understand what is the customer journey of that brand, and it might be a few, depends on the different segments.
• 31:43
  Idan Driman: And then ask the question as with any channel, what is the role and what is the opportunity and maybe the exclusive opportunity with that channel to reach that customer at the right time and drive the best return.
• 31:56
  Jen LaForge: So I think I heard you say everyone should be putting far more marketing dollars into their affiliate strategy.
• 32:01
  Idan Driman: That's a great translation.
• 32:03
  Jen LaForge: That's not what he said.
• 32:05
  Idan Driman: That's what I would sum it up.
• 32:07
  Jen LaForge: That's why I wish he would say that.
• 32:08
  Jen LaForge: So if you've watched any of my episodes, you know I'm gonna hit you with this one.
• 32:12
  Jen LaForge: So I'm gonna tie it up with uh asking you to tell us your definition of what value means to you in your life.
• 32:19
  Idan Driman: Wow.
• 32:20
  Idan Driman: So first of all, it's a great question.
• 32:22
  Idan Driman: So I would say, first of all, I will answer.
• 32:26
  Idan Driman: I started my career as a consultant.
• 32:28
  Idan Driman: So I'll answer as a consultant.
• 32:31
  Idan Driman: Depends.
• 32:32
  Idan Driman: But um the I would say at the end, it's will make me feel better.
• 32:37
  Idan Driman: And I guess about myself.
• 32:40
  Idan Driman: That that's that's value uh for me.
• 32:44
  Idan Driman: Uh that's the I guess the thing I would connect with the most because when when you when you asked the question, when I thought about that question, first thing I thought about moment with my son, one of my two sons, like uh Lee and Amy.
• 32:58
  Idan Driman: I was like, this is that's the first thing that came to me, like two minutes with them, or yesterday being with a basketball uh game uh with Lee, or reading a book to Amy, value.
• 33:09
  Idan Driman: Because that's meaningful for me.
• 33:11
  Idan Driman: And I will trade a lot of things for that thing.
• 33:15
  Idan Driman: Uh so automatically, as someone who works in retail, I also went to the uh thing.
• 33:22
  Idan Driman: But again, that's I would at the end of the day, I think I might make trade-offs, and I believe me, I I chose uh products uh based on price.
• 33:32
  Idan Driman: Uh but it's even when I do it on price, I I connect it back to feeling better with myself.
• 33:39
  Idan Driman: Um so uh I think I think that's what I would connect it to.
• 33:44
  Jen LaForge: I I could have put money on guessing that it was somewhere around there, just because some of the language you've used around uh inspiration and how you uh you seem very deeply interested and connected to the emotional community.
• 33:58
  Jen LaForge: So I think it's safe to say if if it aligns with your values and it gives you more time with your family, that's value.
• 34:06
  Idan Driman: And you just made me think about one more world that I can't believe I didn't use it for the entire podcast.
• 34:10
  Idan Driman: Drop it.
• 34:10
  Idan Driman: Purpose.
• 34:11
  Jen LaForge: Purpose.
• 34:12
  Idan Driman: Yes, which is a big thing for me when I especially uh on the leadership side and and when uh walking with other people.
• 34:19
  Idan Driman: Uh I think it connects to that.
• 34:21
  Idan Driman: Like it when I say makes me feel better about myself, connects me with my purpose.
• 34:25
  Idan Driman: The examples I gave you with my kids.
• 34:27
  Idan Driman: Um but uh yeah, so I think that's uh connects to that.
• 34:32
  Jen LaForge: I don't I think love lives here.
• 34:33
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, walking tank.
• 34:37
  Idan Driman: Again, when you say when you say that and you feel something, that that's uh and you feel the connection.
• 34:42
  Idan Driman: And uh again, that's why it's one of the things I proud myself the most uh of the work of the team at Pet Value, the marketing team, because we we touch emotion with that with that one.
• 34:54
  Jen LaForge: I love that.
• 34:55
  Jen LaForge: Well, I'm feeling a lot of gratitude.
• 34:56
  Jen LaForge: Thank you so much for coming in today.
• 34:58
  Jen LaForge: Um, I know you're busy and it was a terrible commute, but this was uh a great conversation.
• 35:03
  Jen LaForge: John at Pet Value, thank you again.
• 35:06
  Jen LaForge: Um and for those of you who want to step into uh the past and experience that that real customer touch uh that's been built into the journey every step of the way, uh, by all means go out and visit Pet Value and then shop online at Rackutin.
• 35:21
  Idan Driman: Yeah.
• 35:21
  Idan Driman: Thank you very much, uh Jennifer.
• 35:23
  Idan Driman: And uh again, thanks for the those store associates, uh our animal care experts, because you you are the true marketing uh channels and you are the story.
• 35:31
  Idan Driman: We are the storytellers.
• 35:32
  Idan Driman: So thank you and thank you.
• 35:33
  Jen LaForge: Thank you.
• 35:34
  Jen LaForge: And that's it.
• 35:35
  Jen LaForge: This episode of Stacked.
• 35:36
  Jen LaForge: If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes.
• 35:44
  Jen LaForge: And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you.
• 35:47
  Jen LaForge: See you next time.