Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #102 - Bo Royal on the Systems That Make Paid Ads Work

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#102 - Bo Royal on the Systems That Make Paid Ads Work · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: It actually shocks me how many firms are out there spending hundreds of thousands,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: millions of dollars,
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: and they still don't know with some degree of precision what tactics,
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: what channels are ultimately driving cases for them.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's this inherent relationship between targeting and cost of traffic.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: The more hyper-targeted you are, the higher the premium you're going to pay per click.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the nature of the beast, right?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: You are listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And today we have with us Beau Royal of Pareto.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've actually very recently had a chance to meet with him as we're working with a client.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And talk a little bit about his company and what they do.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, Google and Google PPC is a highly competitive space right now in personal injury.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just finished a case study actually on what a law firm spent on PPC and how they grew.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some of the information would really surprise law firms
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  SPEAKER_00: who really haven't done it at a certain scale.
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  SPEAKER_00: So happy to have Beau here on the show and talk with us about marketing and
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: then whatever else we end up talking about, probably AI because I usually do.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Beau.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'll turn it over to you to finish out your introduction.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for inviting me to do this.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: I know this has been many months in the making.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: We actually did a recording on my podcast a year ago, which to my dismay, I did not fully save.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we never were able to publish that.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been like over a year in the making.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think you hit all the broad strokes in terms of who I am, what my agency is about.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just looking forward to talk and shop with you today.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess for reference,
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  SPEAKER_00: so are you focused specifically on Google PPC or are you looking
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  SPEAKER_00: at like ChatGPT ads, Bing ads, Facebook ads?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where's your scope?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to be really positioned on digital advertising for law firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so obviously a lot of firms out there are concentrating their budgets on
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: the Google advertising suite to start with,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially like smaller firms that are really going to need
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: to see more direct response, clear lead generating tactics.
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  SPEAKER_01: So first of all of our clients are running Google ads with us, Google ads and LSA.
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  SPEAKER_01: But then for a good chunk of our other clients,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're doing meta ads,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're doing YouTube ads,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then we're starting to do some preliminary testing like ChatGPT
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  SPEAKER_01: and some other ads.
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  SPEAKER_01: We run some OTT and connected TV for some clients on top of that.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Just the broad spectrum of digital advertising for law firms, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: We're not trying to position ourselves as full service legal marketing agency.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's already a lot of good web and SEO shops out there that focus on the legal vertical.
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  SPEAKER_01: But from our perspective,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a big gap in terms of agencies that do digital advertising for lawyers
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  SPEAKER_01: as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of where we've kind of carved our niche.
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  SPEAKER_00: How long have you guys been in the legal space?
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  SPEAKER_00: When did you all get started?
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  SPEAKER_01: I was working in-house as a CMO for a large workers' compensation
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  SPEAKER_01: and social security disability law firm in Philadelphia.
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  SPEAKER_01: So all came full circle about three and a half years ago
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: when we realized we weren't going to achieve the scale that we wanted to Right.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So everything kind of clicked three and a half years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was a really good decision because now our book
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  SPEAKER_01: of business is like 90 something percent law firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it certainly helped us scale the company.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because we're not reinventing the wheel every time we bring on a new client.
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  SPEAKER_01: We kind of know what works.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not saying that what we do is cookie cutter by any means,
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  SPEAKER_01: but we have the framework needed so that we know upfront whether or not we're going
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to help a firm based on their budget and their constraints.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then if so, what work needs to happen in the first 30%.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just how much things have changed in the marketing space.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm asking this where maybe you can't share like every little thing you look for,
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  SPEAKER_00: but what are you looking for in a law firm?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like what is what makes the law firm your ideal client?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think number one.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Array of firms within plaintiff law,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I would say like 65% of our book is personal injury,
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  SPEAKER_01: motor vehicle accident focused.
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  SPEAKER_01: And aside from size and budget, we're looking for firms with clarity on what their goals are.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Clarity on goals,
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  SPEAKER_01: realistic goals,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then they have the infrastructure to enable digital advertising to work.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is where most of our differentiation and value I think comes from.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Working with a partner that knows the other pieces of the equation,
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  SPEAKER_01: the other business ends of the equation to make these channels work.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so in the context of legal digital advertising,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, you need to make sure that you have a functional service.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need to make sure that the leads that you're generating
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  SPEAKER_01: through digital marketing,
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  SPEAKER_01: digital advertising are being attributed properly within the CRM so that as
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  SPEAKER_01: the lead progresses,
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  SPEAKER_01: it gets further qualified and ultimately retained,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're able to attribute all the leads.
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  SPEAKER_01: All of that marketing activity and the cases back to the originating source.
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  SPEAKER_01: It actually shocks me how many firms are out there spending hundreds of thousands,
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  SPEAKER_01: millions of dollars, and they still don't know with some degree of precision.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: What tactics, what channels are ultimately driving cases for them?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's a big part of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then intake, right?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have any hope of being successful with digital advertising,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: you need to make sure that you have a very foolproof system that makes sure
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  SPEAKER_01: that every lead is contacted and that your agents are properly qualifying
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  SPEAKER_01: and logging the information from that lead in your CRM.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: going back to what I just said too,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's like if your intake folks aren't trained on how to qualify leads
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  SPEAKER_01: and contact them quickly, the channel's just not going to work.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to spend all this money on So those are some of the big things we look at.
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  SPEAKER_01: The way that we do that is before we actually work
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: We work with firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: We make them go through a paid assessment.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we won't come in and say, hey, yeah, sign up with us for six to 12 months.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: We'll manage your ads for you, and you'll be so happy with the results at the end of it.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, before we actually commit to partnering with you,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: we want to get a And some of those things I said are the most common.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll see you next time.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: We want to add that value.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the firms who I talk to when I start talking about data,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: they feel initially like they have a system that's pretty good
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: and tracking pretty well.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like you said,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: there are a lot of vendors out there and sometimes they've been working with
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  SPEAKER_00: a law firm for years who are more than happy to sell
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also seen like law firms attribute massive gains in SEO or PPC or something
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  SPEAKER_00: when the agency hasn't really done anything.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really hard,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: for law firms just talking to each other to understand what's working
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  SPEAKER_00: and what you're seeing in the PPC space is real.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's the reality.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's very much like you said, a commodity.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, so I have a question here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I talk to law firms about PPC budget and how much they need to spend,
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  SPEAKER_00: if they don't want to spend like Yeah, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a big question because there's a lot of things to consider, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: in that example,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would ask the question back to you,
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  SPEAKER_01: but like in that example,
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  SPEAKER_01: is the law firm converting qualified leads at an acceptable rate at that point?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like if so, then like, yeah, sure.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go get If not,
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  SPEAKER_01: if your conversion rate on a qualified lead is like below 80%, 85%,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to grow,
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  SPEAKER_01: just go invest more in the intake and make that better first,
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  SPEAKER_01: because that's the tie that's going to raise all the chips.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think I know what you mean by that question.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can you make lower budget, hyper-targeted PPC work in 2026?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to hate this answer because it does depend on multitude of factors, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: The practice area, the geography, and all these other harder to work.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what they are going to do when they hit your site
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  SPEAKER_01: and they open another browser and type in your brand name,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to see that you provide a subpar service, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to more hyper-targeted PPC,
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  SPEAKER_01: the reason it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
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  SPEAKER_01: harder is because number one, Google is going to And that exists not necessarily.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not only within Google,
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  SPEAKER_01: that exists within other ad platforms too,
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  SPEAKER_01: like Meta is another one where the more refined your targeting gets,
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  SPEAKER_01: the more of a premium you're going to pay on the CPM.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one end of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: The other end is if it's hyper-targeted,
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  SPEAKER_01: the amount of traffic that you're We're going to get going to be annoyingly small to
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  SPEAKER_01: the extent that it's going to be very hard to make meaningful optimizations.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there's going to be a lot of noise in the data on a month to month,
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  SPEAKER_01: quarter to quarter basis, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we're talking about, oh, I want to run this hyper-tolerant.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're probably going to spend like $100, $300, $500 per click.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to spend somewhere in the range of $2, $3, $5K a month on PPC.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's just not really going to be a volume driver the way it needs to be for your business.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So just telling you about like our agency,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: like we're now only working with firms that are willing to invest $50,000 a month
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  SPEAKER_01: or more on digital advertising.
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  SPEAKER_01: So some blend of like PPC, LSA, paid social.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And on top of that,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're really not trying to be the agency that comes in and like proves that
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  SPEAKER_01: the channel can work.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: There already is proof of concept.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: The firm just needs a more adept partner to supercharge these channels.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you're working with like a full service legal marketing agency and they've done
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: the basics right,
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  SPEAKER_01: you can get some positive ROI on PPC, LSA, paid social, so on and so forth.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think our best fit client is when the paid acquisition cost is not where it needs to be.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Growth has plateaued and the firm realizes like, oh,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm having this agency that does websites and SEO kind of manage my paid channels
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  SPEAKER_01: and that's not their zone of genius.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I hope I answered the question.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: My response was very long.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in that example, I'd probably put the money elsewhere, being totally honest with you.
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  SPEAKER_01: I would not spend $300 to $500 a click for a super targeted PPC campaign because,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: again, you're going to pay a premium for that traffic.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And is it really going to drive significantly?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And historically,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: like I've worked with,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know, small law firms where the PPC budget is more modest.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then you do have this mindset of the marketer needs to prove that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: The channel can work when, like you said, there's proof of concept for all these channels.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times the difference is internal and operations and what's happening there.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I hear a lot of the law firm owners I've known all the years like ask a bunch
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: of questions.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: How many law firms are investing that kind of money in PPC and digital marketing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that a common spend or are you really working with elite firms there?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Based on our research,
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  SPEAKER_01: our total addressable market is somewhere in the range of 2,500 to 3,500 firms
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  SPEAKER_01: across the US.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, mind you, that's spanning multiple practice areas too.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's not just personal injury, MVA.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's going to include...
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to include criminal defense.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to include immigration.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to include workers' compensation, property damage.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a whole mixed bag of firms in that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty narrow TAM, but for us, a firm has a lot more work to do.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you kind of alluded to this.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: A firm has a lot more work to do internally before they're ready to spend that kind
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: of budget on these channels, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: One big area or gap I still see is firm reaches And they'll be like,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: well, we only want to generate car accident cases.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you go look at their website and it's like,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because we live in a day and age where it's all shiny new objects.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's all like AI is doing this now and what ChatGPT adds and all this stuff.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel it distracts firms and agencies from just continuing to do the basics well.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: if your goal is motor vehicle accident cases,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: shouldn't your entire marketing ecosystem be oriented around that, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't that be something that's repeated in your ad messaging?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't that be made abundantly clear when you Should you hit the landing page?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't your intake folks be trained on clear value prop when they're picking up
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: the call and saying,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: hey, we're the only firm that just does this in this market, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's just feel like there's a consistent need to just be doing the new thing.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's no,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: if you If you just do the boring things well consistently,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: you will take market share.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: You will actually be successful as a firm owner and you'll grow, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope that answered your question.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely did.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And like, that's so important.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like people lose sight of it is Facebook ads, for example.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've had this conversation with a ton of firms where they dip their toe in the water
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: of Facebook ads and kind of reject it because they get too many leads.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: The leads kind of suck.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot of internal assets to keep up with the creatives.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult to do.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I like to remind firms that, yeah,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: you've done this before,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: but you were tracking results imperfectly and it was implemented imperfectly.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a certain quality of work that goes into doing these things well.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, one of the things that you have to do well in PPC is spend the right amount.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So and fortunately, a lot of firms don't want to hear that, but the space is so competitive.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then something else I'll add,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: and I'll just say this,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: so maybe you have something to add to it,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: but for years prior to The introduction of AI.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like marketing has had a personality issue because marketing is supposed
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: to be about what customers want and what converts customers.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But so many law firms focused on what Google wanted and not offending Google
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: and making Google happy.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you have all of these keywords,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: all of these pages on their site,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: mixed messaging and strategies that shifted slightly year over year.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a mess.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's an absolute mess.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much, like you said, foundation.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we think about it.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Try to build some educational materials around this because it's very important
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: for us to educate new clients about this.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So what do we mean by growth?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: We mean that the firm owners, right,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: have made the conscious decision to reinvest profits,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: what would have been distributions for them, back into the growth engine, right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to generate more leads, higher vendors, all this good stuff, right?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Before you go out and do all that,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: you need to build infrastructures that tells you these are the things that I'm doing
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: to generate leads and cases and all that good stuff.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it consistently reports back to you like what the acquisition cost ROI is
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: of those investments, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, cool.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Once you get that installed, you can then move on to the next stage.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a few other things you need to do too.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: You need to make sure that you have a game plan with intake And you're able
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: to track all that too.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Once you graduate from that level,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: then our recommendation is go hard in the paint
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: on direct response digital advertising, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So like get LSA set up,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: non-brand PPC,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: going after attorney lawyer law firm keywords,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: build out And then maybe a few other little things in there like pepper
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: and some retargeting, what have you.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's kind
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of where you need to play for a while because you need
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: to be spending money on things that you know at your firm's size
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: and your firm's life cycle are like 1000% driving leads and cases, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, cool.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've got that stage done.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then we move to the next stage,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: which is like, oh, we're going to go up the funnel a little bit further.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're going to invest in more like mid funnel tactics.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe we're going to start running some meta ads where we can do some lead gen campaigns.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: We can do PRs.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Pmax and Google Ads, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like start getting a little more broad with the targeting we're doing.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it can kind of toggle between direct response and brand awareness tactics
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: because that's kind of what Pmax is.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Pmax is a hybrid campaign type that spans brand awareness and direct response.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Direct response.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then same thing with like,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: if you run meta ads well,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: they can actually be kind of a hybrid campaign like that too.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But that comes with a whole other set of,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: to your point,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: infrastructure that needs to be in place because we're moving up the funnel
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: and We're going to start doing these other tactics.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have really strong creative and you need to be able
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: to consistently produce more and more creative over time.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because like,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know this,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: like you can't just run the same ads creative for three to six months.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to get fatigued.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Your frequency is going to be through the roof and it's just going to be grinding here.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to be refreshing that creative consistently.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: What to do after a car accident.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Meta, you're going after a much broader, lower intent audience.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to think through, okay,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: so-and-so person is watching cat videos and commenting on their friend's pages,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: happy birthday.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Then they see my ad,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: they You have to think through what that messaging is,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: what value you can offer them at their stage, and then how does that all work?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a whole other stage.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Radio, things of that nature.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is like, it's like a bottom up approach, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we're thinking about this in terms of a marketing funnel,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: it's working your way to the funnel.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're starting the bottom of funnel,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: then you move mid funnel, then you go to the very top of funnel.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's not a cookie cutter Q&A.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of how we think about it.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a sequence.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're not doing it in a way they realize it's a costly mistake 3, 6,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: 12 months later because they didn't have some of these foundational items in place,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: So yet another long-winded response,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: but that's how we think about the work we do and how we prepare clients
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: for each subsequent stage.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: You really inspired me and you've given me a good way to answer a question I get,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: which is how do we do more brand marketing,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: which is to classify brand marketing based on kind of the intent,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: which you're right.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's low intent and it's measured differently,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is really difficult to get some business owners to understand.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't measure an LSA ad and compare it to the performance of a TV ad,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: just like lead to lead, sign up to sign up.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's such an important distinction when you're thinking
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: about different types of marketing.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then also I know some attorneys within my world who probably don't think
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: of LSA ads as direct response marketing, but they are.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: They very much fit the bill of what a direct response is.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Awareness and how to do that in the digital marketing space.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what does it mean?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, essentially, what are the goals for that?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're coming up a little bit on time.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish we had more time to talk because this is a great show.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I love all the information you gave me.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I usually have like two questions I kind of end the show with.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is, well,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: was there anything that we didn't talk about on the show that you think
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: the viewers would want to hear should know about or that you just want to bring up?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think I said the main things I wanted to say,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: which is like stop chasing the shiny objects and focus on the things
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: that won't change in five years,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: which are things like positioning,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: being very clear with your goals and making sure that all
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: of your marketing engine is oriented around that,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: being really I've just seen a lot of firms
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Not just get burned by agencies,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: but like make avoidable mistakes because they're trying to be the owner,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: the lawyer and the de facto marketing person.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I just feel like there's really a key point.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've been saying the same thing for three to four years,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: but it's all still true more than ever now that
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's been AI'd and commoditized to death.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of the more shocking things that I discovered starting as a fractional CMO
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: and growing my company is that vendors really like fractional CMOs because
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: when you're doing it well,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: like you're holding both parties accountable in a really
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: So often those relationships get contentious because one side doesn't understand
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: the other side and no ill will.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a lot of miscommunication.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so having that middle person can really help.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm patting ourselves on the back.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you want people to look you up, learn more about you, follow you and all that good stuff?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just check out our website, Pareto.legal.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you're interested in speaking with me,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: my Calendly is available through that website and you can follow my LinkedIn page.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I post pretty regularly there.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us and being on the show and thanks everyone
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: for listening and we'll see you next time.