Latest / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast Season 7, Ep. 9 Navy Head Coach Cindy Timchal
Transcript
- Sara Munro: This is the JM three Lacrosse Podcast conversations about playing, coaching, and learning the game differently. From player development and skill acquisition to the ideas shaping the future of lacrosse. This is JM three. Jamie Munro: Hey everybody, welcome back to the JM3 lacrosse podcast. Really excited to welcome Cindy Timshaw on the show. Cindy has won more games in Division I Women's Lacrosse than anybody in the history of the game. She's won eight national championships. She's the only coach in history to bring three different programs to the NCAA tournament. Northwestern, Maryland, and Navy. And she's currently the head coach at Navy, coming off a great season. Cindy, really fired up to talk lacrosse with cindy t imchal: Jamie, this is a real honor and a pleasure. And as as as someone who coaches lacrosse and and has really for you, Jamie, made an incredible difference in the game. A great influencer, not just talking but actually showing action of what you have learned and connecting that to the major colleges across the country. I'm really excited about being here today. Jamie Munro: Awesome. we were talking right before we started about how exciting it is for you to watch Northwestern football and their field hockey. And it's kind of crazy you started your career at Northwestern and then coached Kelly Amonty Hiller when she was a player at Maryland and it's full circle. cindy t imchal: Yeah, we contritely call it a surreal moment. for Kelly, you know, when I had the opportunity to be at Maryland and recruit someone like Kelly Amonte at at that time, she was a generational player. And I felt getting this player, getting Kelly to say yes to Marilyn was a significant moment for us. We had already come off of winning a national title. That that helps, when you have that kind of success and you're recruiting some of the top players. and now to see her in in this kind of light, you know, taking that really for somebody who grew up on the East Coast, taking that leap of faith to go to the Midwest, to go to Northwestern University. Which many people at the time when I was there, they thought we coached at Northeastern. and to be part of the big ten, when there was ten teams, was incredible. I mean, it just, you know, for me to start there and then to see Kelly and what she has done, it just it's it's a testament to the love of the game of lacrosse and to always kind of like the Ted Lazo-ish type thing, just be curious. I just wonder how good we could be. Let's see. that kind of moments, I think really is a testament again to what Women's Lacrosse has meant to me personally, obviously to Kelly, and and for a school in Chicago to, you know, put a a luminous light on Women's Lacrosse and do whatever it takes to gain that kind of recognition is just unreal. Jamie Munro: Yeah, totally agree. let's talk a little bit about you and Navy lacrosse and your cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: journey in continuing to be curious and the things that you've really learned. Cause I think women's lacrosse has obviously changed a lot from the rules to the equipment to the skill level to the competitiveness of the whole thing. And you've continued to evolve and continue to compete at the highest level coming off a great season last year. Can you talk a little bit big picture about how you view that and then maybe specifically about some of the things that you've really been digging into? cindy t imchal: Yeah. you know, I it's it's the right moment here at Navy, you know, in obviously the capital, you know, Annapolis and Maryland and I just been very fortunate, just like I was at the University of Maryland, to really attract some top players that believe in something bigger than themselves that can put navy, and their number and you know, their jersey on and just compete like crazy. And These are moments that I'm sure Jamie, and I've now s seeing you in the stance and watching and learning and all that. These are moments that I've been fortunate enough to be on the sidelines to help ignite that spirit of Navy Women's Across to a level that, you know, we feel like we can compete, all the time at, you know, and that's really the challenges at Navy. But however, it's where we feel most comfortable. Playing the top teams in the country. in the fall we played two, teams that got to the final four out at Northwestern, which was Johns Hopkins and Maryland. And and yeah, all we think about is being the best we can possibly be. And what path will that take us? and what journey we'll have in 2027 is something we talk about every day. at school and at practices too. Jamie Munro: You talk about competing. how competitive are your practices and how do you how do you foster that competitive spirit? cindy t imchal: as competitive as Kelly Amonte Hiller. You know, you know, Sim, I I know we're kind of aligned in our coaching philosophies, particularly with constraints with Alex, Surama, who Jamie Munro: Yep. cindy t imchal: really injected to bring the game to the practices and create an environment that either it's about the score. the space, the rules, the numbers. And and that's what we're trying to do anytime as a college coach is present these ideas in a safe environment to try to crush practice every day. athletes I know they love to compete. So if you have that element in a practice, that always helps. it's interesting because they love outcomes. They want to be the winners, whether it's blue versus cold. however, I know, and most recently in Netflix with Nick Saban that it is about the process. You know, when he talked to the sports psychologist at Michigan State, he had no chance of beating Ohio State, which was kind of stinking thinking. And It's interesting because Nick Saban is the master, and you don't think anybody could tell him that you're just not going to be a good coach because of the way you're thinking. And I guess that's what transformed him into the process. So I still believe in every practice it is about the process. but we certainly like to get after it and add in our practices those competitive elements that we find have really gained great benefit. when we go out in the field and scrimmage, compete, or however we set up that, we're done our fall ball, but we're real proud of what we stood for in the fall to really prime ourselves for the spring. Jamie Munro: That's awesome. You used the words constraints and talked about Alex Sorama. It's like music's my ears because I'm so passionate about what I've learned and I love talking about that type of stuff. But how how has that journey been for you as you continue to learn? have you noticed that it's allowed you to be more creative and you're thinking about how to accomplish teaching cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: the things you want them to learn, but figuring out constraints that'll make it happen? cindy t imchal: Yeah. Figuring out the con constraints that can make it happen is always a challenge. It could be cones, it could be time, it could be sides of the field. we could be bringing out little cages, tennis balls. There are so many creative things and I love that word creativity. Jamie Munro: Meet you. cindy t imchal: and sometimes we're going through the motions and and I know you know this, and it's like doing, scales on the piano. you rep things out. I personally as a coach want it to be exciting. Like no boring offense. Sometimes it is a little boring, but that's okay. but the constraints and things that you have introduced into the game are things that we do. Every day. it's a three v twos from the sides. it's setting up the on ball pick. It's creating on one side to occupy defense so that you're really attacking from the other side. Maybe that's what our our new wing tee Sally's gonna be all about. but Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: if I can incorporate it, so yeah, I mean, I feel, Jamie, you've injected. A layer of figuring out how if it's the seven of us on offense and we maybe insert offensive MIDI's, they come out, new set, you know, maybe a second line, third line, or however we have our system. I love the idea of figuring out how good we can be together. And I may know, Jamie, what you like, like you wanna create you want a little more space, and I'm gonna maybe. jammed down and sealed down and create something for you. You may want something in a backdoor situation, whatever it is. But if if we can start figuring that out with the constraints, one side, three V twos, three V threes, you know, four V threes, whatever. I feel like they're on a journey of like kind of I don't want to sound preachy, like it's fulfilling. It's It's enlightening and it starts them to know that they're getting it done. And at the end of the day, they can say, We did it. We did it ourselves. Jamie Munro: I love it. can you share a new constraint that you're excited about? cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: Something that's like was creative and that actually nailed creating the behavior you were looking cindy t imchal: Yeah, I think you know this. sometimes our creativity is by stealing plays or stealing ideas that we see. I took a tremendous amount of notes at the final four last year when unfortunately I was sitting in a stand and my team wasn't on the field, but I wanted to learn. And I learn you know, whether the certain how teams go out on the field, how they warm up, what's important to them right before the game starts, those types of things. More recently in practices, we are more constraint based. We feel that we have to make decisions that are quicker. quicker sticks, quicker decisions, recognizing head up. a lot of it can be, you know, just Boxes, 3v2 boxes, sometimes with tennis balls. Today we're adding little lacrosse cages that we're borrowing from the men's lacrosse program. to add another element of competition and fun. I don't think it's any particular I mean can actually after this, you know, fire over drills that we've been doing more recently. Jamie Munro: Yeah, it's yeah. cindy t imchal: we have a really cool drill, kind of got it from Jenny Levy several years ago. we called it the Carolina drill, but then the players say, we don't want you to call a drill called Carolina. So that we call it Navy Bang Bang. So it's just like a scrap at one end. But what it does is keeps that play, it's it's a tough drill. It's a full field breakout, scrapping for the ball, get it out to the wing, get it back. That give and go. So I know that when North Carolina won their national championship, perhaps it was at Hopkins, or them Jamie Munro: Twenty twenty two. cindy t imchal: sure they did it at I'm sure they did it when they won at Gillette. they love their middies, don't get me wrong, but they love getting their defenders, who are probably former midis in high school, to get the ball down the field while the middies might exchange. Get back. So this Navy Bang Bang is a full field drill. it's it's a scrap out, give and go, then go to the opposite and then finish with a shot. And then you can add those elements of of restraint that we've all just talked about earlier. So Jamie Munro: Totally. cindy t imchal: I think it's a cool drill and it really got our defenders to get up and out and gained That level of confidence. And I saw a lot of that early on with Carolina last year, with a Sam Forrester defender, get the ball, get it out, and just go. the 45 Canadian defender would always do the same thing. That's Jamie Munro: Todo. cindy t imchal: a fun full field drill. And I feel like we blend a lot of, you know, from you know, we don't we usually build small, you know, feel good about our sticks. Some constraints, maybe five V five, backer boxes to really hone in our stick and make those constraints smaller and smaller. The three V twos with the tennis ball and the gold cages, then maybe a navy bang bang. And then yeah, then we'll do, you know, we'll c well sometimes call by name, a brook drill, you know, from Brooke Matthew Shriver. It's a full field three V two. So now we're really expanding the reach of what we need to do. And I'm all about, gosh, we played Clemson a couple of weeks ago. They got the ball out just like a Carolina. They got the ball down the field, down, and then they took off. And that's what that's a dream come true. You know that. And you saw Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: that with Northwestern when they were when they were Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: when they just started soaring from the time they beat Carolina to Carolina and just kept soaring up. They gained that confidence with that type of play. And we feel it's really important to really maximize, get that separation speed. how do you get separation speed? And all of us at division one level, we are all tracking our, you know, whether it's catapult, sport track, to know our load, to know our recovery, to be the best that we can be when the game starts. Jamie Munro: Do you ever use constraints to try to encourage the ball to get up the field faster, like clocks? Yeah. What are some of the constraints you use in that way, clearing clocks or something? cindy t imchal: yeah. Yeah. Well, so we have a drill. It's called draw restarts. So right off the draw, all right, and this will be blue, which may which may or may not, depending on what we're trying to accomplish, be a maybe your starting group versus gold, who are the next best. Ball goes up, you win the draw. Twenty seconds. So we want to create some Early offense right away. 20 seconds to get it down. We know we're now we're pressing. Could it because it might be we're down by one. We need to tie it up. There's 20 seconds to go. So we do that. If we score great, so we're really pressing down. We're really extending the D, we're creating maybe get a pro what I call, primary like top side cutters. Secondary 20 seconds, it might be tough to get it behind and get it on the backside. Just depends where the ball ends up in a draw. and then from there, if the goal team has a defensive stop, they now have 60 seconds to go the other way and score. And you can work with those numbers. So critical piece of the whole practice, you have to have shot clocks out there and you have to have someone running them. And I think that's important. Jamie Munro: Yeah. So cindy t imchal: So if you really want to know some of our little bit of recipes, we have shot clocks no matter where we are. We practice, right on campus, beautiful Navy Marine, not in well, we play at Navy Marine Corps Stadium, but we play on the grounds. it's it's you know, it's Bermuda Grass. but we do go to the stadium once or twice a week. It's Newfield Turf. We love it. We love the, you know, kind of gain that insight of that's where we play all of our home games. But in any moment that we're playing and practicing, we always have our shot clocks. We always have a timing of every drill. So we time every single drill. Everything is timed all the way down. Every insert, every hydration break. It could be kind of a mini like okay, this would be like halftime of a real game and maybe get a snack like an applesauce or something on the sidelines, come back. So we try to simulate all those things in a practice setting. now obviously we have to decide what's most important today, tomorrow, the next day. but yeah, I Jamie Munro: It's okay. cindy t imchal: think that those are things that I think have really helped make us into a championship level program by inserting the little things that we value. And it is like there's extra cones. We create extra cones. I probably shouldn't tell you about, you know, because we have a, you know, you have the eight, we're only us. We we gotta get to somewhere where this have a crease. But we have the eight meter, the 12, you know, 12 meter fan, and then we add a 16 meter. there's one thing that every team kind of struggles with. It's that spacing. and I do know some teams want to play it tight. we play Hopkins. They like it tight. And they can perform at that level. They have great stick skills. And everybody presents, you know, and then Carolina likes to play big. So we try to be somewhere in between, but anytime we can add those things, whether it's an extra dummy Jamie Munro: Yeah, so good. cindy t imchal: in the cage, and you know, an extra guy goalie out, at practice, you know, extra cones, those are elements that going back to the constraint. that transformational time where your team really starts to, they just you just try to make it fun and exciting for them. That's all. Jamie Munro: Totally. And the clocks are so much more fun. And for high school and and club coaches that you don't have a shot clock out there, happens to me all the time when I'm coaching. I just get the goalies to count down. I'll be like, eight eight seconds on the side, count it down. When the ball swings, give us eight more seconds or whatever. Even in our small net games, we count down from twelve seconds or fifteen seconds and it makes it so much more fun to have the time. And when you have all the time in the world, it's just not realistic because it's not how it's gonna be. cindy t imchal: Yeah. No no matter what. and we're very cognizant as college coaches to know the schools that have made decisions of using like let's say a shot clock in their in season. It could be here in Maryland, many of the private schools, whether it's McDonough or St. Paul's or Maryvale, Roland Park, Brynmar, they're all playing with the clock and many and if they're not doing that in Pennsylvania. Then those signature private schools, so maybe public schools have a rule, but they'll come down and play a real game, Agnes Irwin, you know, Archbishop Carroll, whatever, and play with the clock purposely. 'cause once you get to college, the clock is a big part, well, there's many big parts of what the game is all about. But knowing Jamie Munro: For sure. It's real though. cindy t imchal: knowing time and space and all those kind of things play into our decision making when we're creating practices. And I love the idea, whether it's an injured player, an extra person on the field. Hey, I've gone to many high school games. And we obviously are are always going to club games. but the high school games have like eight people on the sideline coaching. Saint Mary's, you know, whoever it is. Jamie Munro: I know. cindy t imchal: I I mean I love it that they're invested in these young women. at Saint Mary's or whatever school. so there's plenty of help to go around to you know, either borrow a clock or someone counting down how much time is left before you need to get a shot off. Jamie Munro: Totally. you talked a little bit about picking in your offense. Can you talk a little bit about how you teach that and your philosophy behind it? Why you like to pick, when you don't want to so much and and what what maybe what the biggest challenges are of getting kids to learn how to play a two man game? cindy t imchal: Yeah. Yeah. the the best duo in the country at the time obviously was Aaron Crickendahl and Izzy Skane. that was unmatched, know, pick Jamie Munro: I agree. cindy t imchal: on ball. and you know, the dummy picks coming off of it. many thrive, and I think you have to have a certain athlete and perhaps a certain defensive matchup. You want to understand your opponent. and all this might be a awry when 80% of Division I programs are playing zone. But the fundamental basis of understanding whether it's a down pick or an up pick or just, you know, pick and fade, I think is something totally worthwhile for your athletes to understand, to know on the offensive end, to understand on the defensive end. Is this a lefty I'm picking for? Does she I I have players that literally do not want anyone to pick on ball? And I have a standout player that does not want any pick on ball. She wants you to drag people away, create the early slide, and then we can work off of that. So I believe that we work on it. You know, we played Penn State on Saturday. I think they mixed up man and we did do some picks on ball. And Hopkins was zone, Clemson was zone, Pitt was zone. so we run a couple different things when we're playing against a zone. I still believe you have to have the fundamental basics when you're playing against the zone that you still want to, you know, dodge the feed and create off of that, which is sometimes the mastery of a zone is to get you the team to keep overpassing and The clock is going down. You know, you really No. Yeah, you gotta attack it. You gotta attack it. So I don't know if I Jamie Munro: For sure. And the passing doesn't really do anything. You gotta attack it. Yeah. And and the teams get cindy t imchal: describe the the the the pick as much. And we create those off of even the 3v2. We'll say we have to pick. And I love and I just saw a I don't I'm sorry, I didn't went on this YouTube of you doing it at was it Compass Lacrosse? That back door was just amazing. The pick and then the bet ease. Jamie Munro: Concept. cindy t imchal: Yeah. Yeah. That was amazing. See that and that's easy lacrosse and it isn't boring. And you're like, what just happened? Jamie Munro: Not boring goes a long way. cindy t imchal: Not boring goes long and I don't like to use negatives like that. you want to say I want to play exciting, but at some Jamie Munro: We like to say creativity. cindy t imchal: point I said it can't be boring. It can't be boring. And if you and then when you see Jamie Munro: It's so true. And if you just do the same thing over and over and over cindy t imchal: a deep a Adie Foster in a backhand and you know Aaron Quickendall and a pro game, you know, just flop back and score. I mean this is this is this is unreal. This is where women's lacrosse needs to just take off. and that's probably one of the things that we as college coaches and all of us across the country, I see what Nebraska has done for volleyball and I want that to be whether it's a Northwestern, a Maryland, a Hopkins, a Navy, a Penn State, a Carolina. Let's take off. Because the numbers and the excitement and all of that is something that I believe we have. And I just want that to Jamie Munro: I agree. cindy t imchal: soar. Jamie Munro: It is such a great game. I probably wouldn't have appreciated it cindy t imchal: It is such an amazing game. Jamie Munro: as much if I didn't have daughters, but man, I've watched a lot of women's across and I love coaching it. I love watching it. a lot of people are like, you should have fewer players out there. I don't think so. I think seven on seven is awesome. I mean, what do you want to do? Score 30 goals? I mean, you know, good teams are scoring 18 goals anyways. I mean, how many goals do you need to score? cindy t imchal: Well, I love see now that is something I'm gonna use. I I like seven. you know, we just don't have the infrastructure. We don't have a long pole defender in the middle with no three seconds consequence or Jamie Munro: Right. For sure. cindy t imchal: shooting space consequence. We just don't have that. And I think that that is where we need to I love that you just said. Penn State it was sixteen fourteen. Hopkins Jamie Munro: Right. cindy t imchal: it was I don't know, fifteen fourteen. yeah, you're right. And Jamie Munro: There's a lot of goals and you can score them. I mean you have to be good at offense to do it. But you know, going back to the zone, I want to chat about that a little bit. Cause I want to talk about a little about picking against zone. I've been thinking a lot about this. I just cindy t imchal: Okay, this is what I'm gonna learn from you. You're I'm gonna learn from the master. Pick against his own. Jamie Munro: I just think I we I used to think and I I'm like mad at myself for even thinking this. I'm like, well, why why bother picking against zone? You can get two on you without picking. Basically, right. You carry it, you can get one cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: player passing you off to the other, and you got two on you. But then I started realizing that the problem is there's so much ball pressure that you can't really feed it. And and if you set a pick, then you're gonna break the pressure or you're gonna extend the pressure. cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: And and so therefore, if they want to go under the pick, then you can feed all day, but they can't do that because they can't let you feed because in so on, there's always people open. Every time you watch. A team you're gonna play, or you watch your own zone, you're like, my god, we got so many people are open in here, but it's the ball pressure that covers it up. And if you pick for the ball, obviously they go under, you can feed cat and mouse. And if they go over, now they have to keep going over and they're gonna have to extend more. And obviously then you got to decide, well, are they playing this pick two on two or two on one? And if it's a two-on-one pick, you should be able to attack it and you've got a gap. And if it's two-on-two, then all of a sudden there's two players that are really extended farther than they would be normally, and they're both out there on a pick. And now you've got big gaps for somebody else to attack a gap or to find that two-on-one pick. But I'm curious what your thoughts are on. cindy t imchal: Well, I just learned so much. I can't wait to insert it in practice today. that is great thinking. And it's something I 100%. The whole idea about a zone and even the concepts that I know that led BC to win two national titles was that unbelievable pressure on the ball. So that sure there's always going to be players cutting and open. But you're gonna find ways to cover her because of that unreal pressure. And I think that's why zones are very popular, because ultimately no matter who's open in the middle, we're just not getting her the ball. So you're hedging. it's something that Gino was asked, what practices do you want to go see? You know, to learn. And and he said, Well, I want to go to a high school practice. Because I know you have to teach a lot of fundamentals. You have to be a good teacher to be a good high school coach. And then he said, and at the time, I don't know whether the WMBA was as big as it was, he goes, I want to go to the, I want to go see an MBA practice. And he said, I want to go to see an MBA practice, because everyone is good. So I know we all talk about the NBA and nobody plays defense. I get that concept. But he says they're all good. So you can't just cheat. I'm going, I'm gonna leave. We're gonna, we're gonna slide early, not worry about the backside player. But in in basketball, they're all good. It's hard to just do that. So that was his idea of learning more about the game by understanding it's really teams always count on defensively. You're not figuring it out, like you said. How about a pick on ball against a zone? to free that up if they go over and under and attacking it that way. And I think that's something that we all have to be curious about. Because there's a reason why people are benefiting schools, Stony Brook, Hopkins, you know, all of them. I mean, even Northwestern was facing zone up until they played like what, Elite Eight and then the final Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: four was zone. You had a prep for zone. Jamie Munro: He was nonstop zoning telephone. cindy t imchal: And I know there has to be man elements, there has to be JM three elements in attacking Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: the zone the right way with the right people in the right spacing. Jamie Munro: It is nice though to be able to pick in man and zone and basically be able to run the same actions and just adapt to the different coverage. And and a lot of times the coverages kind of do become the same. I mean, when you pick, there's an option for the on-ball defender, under or over. It's that simple. That's all they can really do, right? They can go under it or over it. And the other defender has a choice of dropping off, switching or done. cindy t imchal: They could switch. They could switch. Switch. Yeah. Jamie Munro: That's the yeah, the pickers defender can decide to do that. But the on ball defender has under or over. And then the picker's defender can switch, can step up and double, or can not switch. and you know, it it it's really interesting how it works against man and zone and all the passing angles and the deception. I mean, when you play against zone, the the reason why these teams that do well against teams that are more athletic is because they're they they're long dodging teams, you know, and if you're a long dodging team, you're gonna struggle against a zone because they're kind of set up to be in your way. And when you play tighter and you play with more actions and more like ability to attack a gap, which is an interesting concept. It's not new by any means, but I've been thinking so much about the opportunities to attack gaps in man and zone, honestly. And I feel like everyone focuses on dodging space and creating space, but gaps are opportunities as well. And in and you can't really be good at zone offense if you can't attack a gap. cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: Right? Yeah. Yeah. One way or another. cindy t imchal: No. That's good. Yeah. You're right. You're right. One way or the other. Attacking the gaps. Yeah. And now we have to break that down into the drills that we can maximize. Jamie Munro: Exactly. cindy t imchal: I gotta go back to the drawing board. There's a lot to do between now and February. Jamie Munro: I'm always going back to the drawing board, so I'm with you on that. Figuring cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: out how to attack gaps in so many different ways. I was noticing actually Maddie Taylor attacks gaps in a really interesting way. I don't think she's I think she just naturally does this very, very well. Alex Rama talks about this concept in basketball called a a blast cut, which cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: I actually had this conversation on my last podcast with. Justin Ward, who was at Army for a lot of years and now he's the offensive coordinator at Loyola Men's. cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: but I don't know if you ever noticed, a lot of times, Maddie would attack gaps by making an off-ball cut to the middle and receive the ball. almost like she was starting her dodge before she received the ball. She sort of cut top side. Maybe a maybe a righty was kind of like stepping into a gap and hitching a little bit, and then she'd start a cut towards the ball and catch it and turn the corner right. Through the defense. And it's just a really interesting concept that I'm not sure. I was telling Justin this, I'm not sure it's as applicable in men's as it is in women's in zone. But that concept is a really interesting one. And basically in basketball, it's like in a double gap situation in basketball where you cut top side on your cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: defender and receive the ball with a head of steam so you can like turn a corner. but in any case, it's just another way, and I think that. That's what's so cool about the CLA is that it'll teach you how to figure out a million different ways to solve the same problem. The problem is you got to get through a gap. Or you got to get to the middle. And a lot of times against zone, it's gonna have to be through a gap. So how can we do that? How can we make gaps bigger? How can we look for gaps? How can we fake through gaps, cut through gaps, or dodge through them in different ways? cindy t imchal: Okay. Are you gonna tell me how to do this? Jamie Munro: I definitely will. I'm always up for talking lacrosse. cindy t imchal: okay. Jamie Munro: but yeah, I'll send you a clip on that. It's kind of interesting at some point. I'll show you for sure. cindy t imchal: I appreciate that. The tacking the gaps, this concept is something we really want to be masterful with it. And you know, we come up with these ideas in our head, as you know, as college coach, well, if we do this, this, and this, we're gonna be golden. I feel like every day we gotta figure out. Maybe you know, there was one thing we did at Maryland, I felt well, and at to a fall, because Then when we were playing some close games, even though we kept winning the championships, they said, Why don't they just focus on being good instead of focusing on trying to do something different? And I always wanted to do something different. Because I felt that set an element that the other team would it'd be the unpredictability of something. So Jamie Munro: follow it. cindy t imchal: this attacking the gaps is something that like to really dive into and do Jamie Munro: It's funny. I a lot of the athletes I work with I talk to about attacking gaps in the context of when they're trying to go to these showcases and nobody's ever getting out of the way. I'm like, well, guess what? just because they're not getting out of the way doesn't mean you can't figure out a way to get through that gap. You just can't do it with a long dodge. You're gonna have to do it more slowly. And that's basically what basketball is. Basketball is always about attacking a gap. And you you don't see people long dodging in basketball because the gaps are too small. You'll never get to the basket that way. You have to play closer and square up, or maybe post up and figure out a way to get through that gap. Usually when people are focusing on attacking space, the defense gives you the space they want you to have, which is down the alley. You know, to get to the middle, you're gonna have to figure out a way usually to get through a gap, especially with seven defenders out there. so it it it's quite applicable in in in man-and zone. actually, you know what a constraint that we use a lot that I love. We call it dodge and kick. And we'll do cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: this in all different uneven and even all even situations. Maybe it's a three on two outside the eight. We call it outside the arc, but we use the eight as our arc or four on three, same thing. But we basically say, okay, you guys have to attack deep into the eight, and you then you got to kick it out to somebody and learn how to attack a gap. Learn how to get into the eight and then be able to kick it out. So that you can then play like with zero seconds decisions and really move the ball fast. and when you start getting into zone offense or all even man to man, five on five, six on six, seven on seven, it's really interesting when you do this because for the athletes that are not good enough at dodging, it makes them dodge. And you've got some great feeders that aren't as physical, maybe as they need to be, and they're just not attacking like they need to be. And it just makes them attack. cindy t imchal: Right. Jamie Munro: But then on the flip side, you got these other athletes that are like hard charging, very athletic, but they're just not that great at passing. And so on both ends of the spectrum, it actually makes a huge difference. That's been one of the most powerful constraints that we've used over tons of different setups. This whole idea of dodge and kick and then being able to play fast out of that. zero seconds decisions is a basketball turn I stole from Alex cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: as it relates to when the defense has to collapse and then you gotta start making zero seconds decisions to pass, dodge, or shoot. but yeah, it's just it's such an interesting concept and and kids love it. And then you and then you can challenge them to kick it out in different ways, you know, like Don't let them kick it out exactly the same way all the time. Find a different angle, find a different release point. And then sometimes what I cindy t imchal: Hmm. Jamie Munro: like to do is let them fake their kick out. If they can fake their kick out and dunk it, I'll let them dunk it. And then they learn the deception of getting all the way in there and pumping it out and then like walking right in. When you talk about Erin Quick and all, that type of deception is what I think of with her. She was just an absolute wizard with her brain. and she's a good athlete, cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: probably a better athlete than people would give her credit for, but man, she was like one of the smartest players I've ever seen. cindy t imchal: Yeah. She watched a lot of film. That helped her a lot. I think Jamie Munro: Yep, for sure. cindy t imchal: Scotty said he she watched more film than they did. I mean, that just shows Jamie Munro: Ha ha ha. cindy t imchal: what a player can do. Just like you said, like learning out of creativity, just like you said, attacking the gaps when you feel like there's nowhere else to go. Jamie Munro: and it's just so easy, just either attack the gap or get two on you. you get two on you, kick it out. You've just created something. in men's lacrosse, do you ever watch this guy Zach Courier play? cindy t imchal: Yeah, yes. Jamie Munro: Zach Courier was just the midfielder of the year in the PL. he's kind of a hybrid offensive player, defensive player. He actually played like cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: more defense for the PLL Water Dogs this year. And he's a Canadian boxer cross player. And this guy, that's how he plays. And it's incredibly unorthodox. He just finds a way to knife into a gap, draw people onto him, and then find these incredibly creative ways to like kick the ball out to people. and it's it's like instant offense, but people have a hard time wrapping their head around it because it's not traditional. It's not like let's clear space and attack and shoot it on the run. It's more like he just finds a way to knife into a gap with something deceptive, and then next thing you know, you've got to double him and he kicks it out, and you know, CJ Kirst has got all day to time and room shoot it. But I think that those opportunities are there in in women's as well. And I think it's it's such an important concept because basically You can attack space, but deep defenses aren't giving you the space you want. Right? They're gonna give you cindy t imchal: Right. Jamie Munro: they're gonna give you space they want you to get and take, which is usually low angle cindy t imchal: You're right. Jamie Munro: space. cindy t imchal: Right. I I I Jamie Munro: Okay. cindy t imchal: just remember a couple of clips from Northwestern playing Carolina and their their whole philosophy defensively is really just owning your matchup. And I I don't know which player it was, but they're dodging. it may have been Lucy, your daughter, like dodging and dodging and working it and working it, and finally they gotta flip off to like, you know, Madison Taylor went down. We call it Rocket, go down the backside. I'm whether Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. cindy t imchal: she scored off of that or whether she hit someone low coming off the crease, but that perseverance, really attacking and discovering, are you that good? I think it's it almost like everybody's testing the waters, testing from the top, testing from the crease, testing Jamie Munro: Yeah. Totally. Probing. cindy t imchal: from the elbows. and when they figure out something, I think that's where sometimes we might have a missing piece. When you figure a little bit something else. Maybe the other defense might all of a sudden go from a zone or a rover or backer to a man and switch things up. But that's again that creativity, that chess match match mentality. and having the confidence, like you say, maybe to square up, look up, keep your head you know, and understand, you know, that early slide or or the gap that's there for the kick out. So That's when lacrosse is just gonna that's where I feel like that's where we're at. That's what will continue to raise that bar, you know, and those signature players that stepped out on the field have been able to be the ones that are that I feel like are the trendsetters. You know, the Chloe Humphreys and Jamie Munro: Totally. And so much of it is about cindy t imchal: the Madison Taylors and all of them, I think. we have a pretty good long mid long range shooter in Alyssa Chung. Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: They won't call shooting space because they don't think she could shoot that far and she can. Against Maryland, she was shooting so hard, was coming off the backside of the football stadium of coming right back out on the field. And it's not like a field like at Carolina or Penn State where it comes right back. It was way back and still firing up. And so I feel that getting more of those long range shooters, You have a Caitlin Clark who's shooting from the logo. Well, what are you gonna do? You have to come out, and that's you create all the back door slips and open up your whole offense because they have to respect that. And I think that's what we need Jamie Munro: So true. cindy t imchal: is a little more respect with the ball shooter that and that's gonna come with the the type of shooters. and there's plenty around, but we feel like we have one of the top really truly could consistently shoot at the twelve. Jamie Munro: What are the things you're doing to help her take more advantage of that beyond just looking for that shot? Are you are you getting her to as I would say, hitch the lights out and use that as cindy t imchal: Yeah. It doesn't always work. Cause no one thinks they just don't believe it's gonna actually. They just don't believe it's gonna go in. And then it does. And they're like, okay. But we need a little bit more of that. And I then I think whether it's a zone or the man or the shutoffs and all that, we can be far more creative and really lock into what you're talking about, the CLA, the gaps, the kicking it out. We have another Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: element, Jamie, that I think we're all trying to figure out, strategy wise and fundamentally is now that you're allowed to check a stick that is empty below the waist. Yeah. Jamie Munro: really? That's a new rule? cindy t imchal: New role. You probably if if you ask anybody, it is right now changed a lot of how what we're thinking and what we're doing. especially off the draw. and you saw the games going down the stretch. there are a lot of little empty checks that weren't called. This is massively empty checking. So very similar to the kick outs you're really just selling out to the ball. And you know the guys have a lot of concepts about protection and getting under. But as soon as Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: you get that ball out, they're they're going after everything. And they're as soon Jamie Munro: Totally. cindy t imchal: as you're going for the ball, they're they're checking you. So I don't know. Jamie Munro: I kinda like that. I kinda like that. Because I I always found it annoying that if somebody were going for a ground ball that I couldn't tap their stick up so they'd missed it. You know what I mean? I used to call it when my kids they'll lift up your stick chick. but we're player. cindy t imchal: All right. Yeah. And I I only bring it up because I think we all found it fascinating this fall. A rule that you thought, okay, there's a couple of empty checks. Let's just let them play to a massive strategy behind securing, it's ball security. And that is gonna take, you know, a little bit more willpower and a little bit more strategies Jamie Munro: Yeah, and skill. cindy t imchal: behind the collective unit. That's creating, even in like you said, attack the gaps, kick it out, and maybe, maybe literally kick it out, to gain possession of Jamie Munro: Yeah. Seriously. N hockey it around, kick it up. cindy t imchal: the ball, which is, you know, again, primary in our game. Jamie Munro: When you see men's players with long poles, they have to do that all the time because their their long poles are such targets. They have to knock it around and hockey it around and and figure cindy t imchal: Okay. Jamie Munro: out ways to manipulate the ball so they can get a ground ball. I kind of love that actually. I don't know how you feel about it. Are you are you pro that rule or anti? cindy t imchal: Well, they put it in. I'm sure they want some feedback. it seems a little more physical with a lot of playing at some point. You think it's almost like a rugby match and you see that in the men's game on a face off. I think at this point you have to stick with it. people are gonna people are gonna complain that it got very Jamie Munro: What about what about cindy t imchal: aggressive. A lot going on. And I'd sense that. We know we meet in a couple of weeks at our convention, but I I do feel that you have to be prepared. You know, the message out Jamie Munro: Cindy, what about cindy t imchal: there is being prepared with the way you're going to actually pick the ball up. We had so many times we had ball security and it's it's gone. And it was right before. Or or you know, it's Jamie Munro: Yeah. Right before, yeah. cindy t imchal: just it's just an an enhanced level of physical play. created by Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. cindy t imchal: the empty stick checking that I think teams are gonna not necessarily strategize, but you're gonna have a little more scrapping in practices. Jamie Munro: Well, they're gonna keep it alive. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna keep you're gonna keep it alive by checking them before they can pick it up. But let me ask you this question. What about off ball, if someone's cutting, can you empty stick check them while the ball's in the air to them? cindy t imchal: No. If it's above the waist, no. But that timing is the ball's coming. Jamie Munro: It is, it is. But in Men's Across you can totally check a stick with five yards. cindy t imchal: yeah. yeah. Jamie Munro: And I was curious if that was part of the rule, but it's that's not I I figured that would be a hard one. Yeah. cindy t imchal: What Yeah. And Jamie, you were right. I thought right away and they said no, it has people all the waist. So Jamie Munro: Got it. cindy t imchal: again, maybe you're getting one of those, low low feeds and Jamie Munro: Wait, so is that mean that cindy t imchal: Who knows? Jamie Munro: self draws are gonna be pretty much something that doesn't happen? cindy t imchal: I don't know. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Or it's above the waist. You can't do above the waist. So you can't you can't empty stick cindy t imchal: You can't do it above the waist. Jamie Munro: jack above the waist. So therefore so it's only when the ball's on the ground. I kinda like it. I think it's cool. Yeah. I think it'll be fun. cindy t imchal: Will you? Yeah, there's no question, and many teams played a lot of fallball. So Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: I know it's a point of discussion. In fact, this past weekend we were playing Penn State, but there were like three other national rankings where they hosted several teams. I think one was down at Duke, one was at Notre Dame, and one was at Rutgers. So it'd be Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: interesting the conversations that come out of that. With the national umpires, doing ratings and Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. cindy t imchal: the college coaches giving them feedback. At the end of the day, I'm a true believer. If it's written in the rule book, you can't just start doing your own interpretations. and that's where we get in trouble in this game. you know, either it's gonna be this is the rule or I don't like that rule. well we won't call it all the time. Whatever. you just gotta Jamie Munro: Yeah, yeah. cindy t imchal: it's it's something that, Jamie Munro: That's the worst. cindy t imchal: it that's the worst. And that's the worst. Jamie Munro: Yeah, that is the worst. have you noticed that when you're playing your small net games with tennis balls, it's one of the best ground ball scrap scenarios. I mean, that's where like cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: we do a lot of that with the kids I work with and my own children. We just play tons of this pickup, and that's where everybody can become just the best ground ball scrapper. And it's where like, you know, we don't play with empty stick check rules with that either. So we, you know, the girls and boys play together when I Do these sessions and they're always the boys will check the girl sticks before they're allowed because they're not ready used to it, but then they've learned how to play ground balls that way. and it's so much fun. There's maybe nothing better cindy t imchal: It is Jamie Munro: than beating somebody to a ground ball and then picking it up and just laughing your head off because you just know you beat them. And they're like like literally like cindy t imchal: Ha ha ha. Jamie Munro: huge, they're just laughing while they get the ball away from their friend and then they. cindy t imchal: and it's kinda interesting 'cause we always talked about some teams and they there'll be an NCAA leads the leads the N C double A division one in ground balls. And of course, you watch a Carolina versus Duke game, the ball's never on the ground. nobody's dropping the ball, running for it out of bounds and things like that. there's more I felt, more ball security, more high quality shots and maybe the higher level games. But now this rule can change that a little bit. Jamie Munro: Yeah. It's gonna make the draws a little bit more exciting, I bet, when the ball hits the ground. It's gonna be really it's really cool. I love it. cindy t imchal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then of course we're held on and so are the men with a restraining line. So our players think we got it, we didn't get it, and now they've gone off sides. and this is just a learning moment. 'Cause Jamie Munro: Well, at least they actually call off sides now because there was a time in in Women's Across where you could run off sides and then they just let you go back cindy t imchal: I'm Jamie Munro: on sides like it didn't happen right in front of cindy t imchal: I I know. I I think they wanted to keep the flow of the game. My argument was anybody that it's player would go off size maybe to ride a little bit and come back was definitely an advantage for them that did Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: that and a deterrent to create your like early offensive looks. And so they cracked down on that. yeah, I just want to play more. I don't want to get paid by the whistle or whatever, but we'll see. We'll see how it Jamie Munro: I agree. cindy t imchal: all Jamie Munro: I kind of felt like the rules in twenty twenty three were better. cindy t imchal: yeah. Jamie Munro: before all the green cards. but I was talking to Tim O'Dormick the other day. He told me that cindy t imchal: Yeah. Well that w that yeah. Jamie Munro: that it's not being called the same way. is that true? He said your guys' cindy t imchal: a little bit. Jamie Munro: game was like really physical and they let let you guys play, but he wasn't sure if that cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: was going to be consistent. cindy t imchal: No, it wasn't because right away Cumson played in the fall this year, Ruckers and there, they tweeted everything. So we don't know what we're gonna get. we'll see. I I felt with a draw, and that's always an inherent problem with the draw being set a certain way and feeling like is it going up? And we felt in situations the player wasn't going. up that motion. But once you tell that it's just the moment's gone. So you really don't have to go up. You can get away with not going up, I feel like. and whether that's going to be important with the, empty checks, I don't know. We'll see. We'll talk about it. Jamie Munro: Yeah. we'll switch gears for a second and talk about recruiting a little bit. When you are looking at these club games and you're looking at athletes, how would you sort of characterize what like what you're looking for in a in a player? And maybe you can sort of touch on the various positions of what you're kind of looking for. cindy t imchal: we go back and forth where players are really valued by great finishers, you know, high level, you know, five-star stick level scoring ability, lax IQ, which sometimes it's hard to tell in a tournament showcase type situation and I think more recently we've been looking at that full two way unappreciated MIDI, you know, like someone an Osborne from Carolina, you know, she just changed the game. Having that level of abilities on the offensive and defensive end and carrying the ball through the way through. So I guess if we're looking for not in particular just for Navy, but across the country, I think this year was the year of the MIDI. a two way MIDI and having those assets, but it doesn't take away because there were, five star attackers that are going to top level programs like Carolina, like Florida, like Boston College or like Northwestern. So I feel like, you know, we're still looking for that athlete to just at the end of the day we can talk about physical access, you know, speed, quickness, lax IQ, head up. you know, being great teammates. You just gotta really love lacrosse. At Jamie Munro: So true. cindy t imchal: so many levels, you've gotta love the game. And be a chameleon, be willing to change at any given moment. and I think that's the athletes we try to recruit. We love lefties. There's nothing like, a Madison Taylor or an Alyssa Chung. so we love left-handed players. They certainly have an asset, we believe. and certainly witnessed by what Northwestern did. You know, there wasn't Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: a moment, I don't think, that there weren't three lefty attackers or, you know, attack middies on the field. So, so we like that. You like to go with the programs that have a high level of success, whether, team wise, whether it's for us a heroes or a mass elite or you know, Triple H, and D. obviously they're crushing it down in Georgia with Eagle Sticks. But additionally, many of these young athletes really learn the game by having high quality high school experiences. don't you feel that way? Jamie Munro: I do because high school across is every day. club is fun and it's it's a vehicle and it's good to do in the summer, but high school is where it's at. High school, you live and die for it. you cry when you lose a high school championship, cindy t imchal: Yeah. Jamie Munro: In the club, it's like, all right, well, what am I doing next week? nilly, it's just like on to the next thing. cindy t imchal: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamie Munro: There's something about how much you care and the relationships. I mean, it's like college, you know, it just matters so much and When you have an amazing high school experience and you've got high school coaches that are really caring about you and developing you, it is it it's the best, honestly. cindy t imchal: Yeah. There's no question. And that's maybe a missing piece. I talked to a club coach who said, they need to come see my team play. You know, it's a signature program in Connecticut. And, you know, sometimes it's difficult to get there during our season. We put restrictions Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: on what we can watch them play. And Jamie Munro: Right. cindy t imchal: they're because they're training together and they're training with different level. You know, now you're training with, you know, you're this like a starting senior captain and you and now all of a sudden there's a great freshman, high school freshmen that can play on the varsity program. So there's a lot of elements in that watching a high school team prepare, get out on the field and get after it. And I I feel that Jamie Munro: Totally. And there's real defense. cindy t imchal: we've lost that a little bit, but I I don't have any tracking with that and we have all this analytics, do I ask Chad or Claude or Gemini? I don't know, but to find out, we had a signature full time middy, Ava Yovino. she played for Saint Thomas Iguanas. They won a state title. and then she played for, you know, Florida Select. So she was getting great coaching all the way through. And there are there's so many players that are like that. So we just I feel like we have to go back to valuing this high school experience. Just like we're gonna value the Wing T Sally, from Chip Kelly, and we just have to start, Jamie Munro: Right, right. cindy t imchal: we get a lot of feedback from clubs and we've we s we've established amazing relationships 'cause they are invested. it's Jamie Munro: Sure. cindy t imchal: a club. It it's it's I don't wanna call it a business 'cause they're in we altruistically they're in it for the players to expose them, to coach them up, to go to these Amazing tournaments and have fun. There's no doubt about that. But they're invested and they'll know a lot about their players. Because sometimes in high school, the coach, high school coach isn't available, or they're hiring a new one, or they're it's a part-time and they're not there all Jamie Munro: Yeah. cindy t imchal: day in school. So you know the differences. There's still going to be great athletes coming out of those programs. They're one of the best athletes that played for Maryland last few years ago is a homeschooled player. she didn't go to high school. and I know that there's a some of that down in Florida. but I like to go back to seeing a little bit more of that. and I'm fortunate because I'm close enough to some signature high school programs. You know, whether it's, with Summit High School up in New Jersey to Farmingdale or, Cold Spring Harbor and then in this area, Maryvale, et cetera, and then in Pennsylvania, you know, the Radners, the Conestogas, et cetera. Jamie Munro: a good cindy t imchal: I like to feel that way because I'm like, this is really cool. We want to feel the like the meaning, like you said, of what's at stake and playing together as a unit and going to school all day, getting on a yellow school bus and and playing your hearts out. that's the heart and soul of Girls Lacrosse and Women's Lacrosse. Jamie Munro: For sure. Well, Cindy, thank you so much for coming on and talking across with me. This was so much fun. cindy t imchal: I hope you enjoyed it. I hope it gains some merit on both sides. And I appreciate you too, Jamie, and especially what you've brought to the game. Jamie Munro: Thank you. cindy t imchal: and especially, you know, now seeing your daughter at Northwestern. I know your son's at Jacksonville and what you've done is really remarkable. And it is life changing, game changing for those who know and understand how important this process is and Developing growing the game to something very, very special in this country and in the world. Jamie Munro: Well, Cindy, thank you so much for the kind words. cindy t imchal: Thank you. Jamie Munro: and I'm gonna follow up with you so we can talk more constraints. cindy t imchal: Absolutely. And I have some clips I can send over to you. Thanks, Jamie. I appreciate your Jamie Munro: Awesome. Let's do it. All right. cindy t imchal: time. I appreciate you inviting me on. Jamie Munro: Awesome. Have a great day. cindy t imchal: Go navy. Jamie Munro: Go navy. Sara Munro: Thanks for listening to the JM three lacrosse podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and share with a teammate or coach who loves the game. We'll see you next time.